Leadership vs. good Diplomacy

[missmvicious]

What's the difference? Is it better to get a Cohort than it is to simply talk an NPC into traveling with you?

I'm a Wizard in my campaign with ok CHA, but I'm relatively successful with my Diplomacy rolls. And we've got a Druid and a Ranger who can get me animal companions (not Animal Companions) to travel with me, carry stuff for me etc. Or I could just cast Summon Mount. So, I'm not sure what the big difference is.

But I hear about Leadership being talked about all the time on this forum, so there must be something to it that you can't just get by diplomancing.

What is the voodoo behind Leadership that I'm obviously failing to notice?

[GnomeGninjas]

Leadership lets you play one extra character (flanking buddy for sneak attack) (magic item crafter for when you don't want to spend EXP)(bard to make your melee people do better) (just another character idea you have been dieing to play but haven't found a game to play her in) it also eventually gives you any army of minions. Diplomacy just makes people like you.

[Randomatic]

There are two reasons to take the feat over Diplomacy
Leadership is a guaranteed thing, while Diplomacy is open to interpretation, and Leadership has it's own rules about experience gain for Cohorts and Followers.
If you convince one of the locals to come help you out with a quest, that local should be gaining their own share of any experience gained. While a cohort will come along and you won't lose out on any.

[GnomeGninjas]

Plus the party won't be annoyed by a dmpc doing stuff for them.

[Coidzor]

Leadership is something that DMs can make you pay a feat for a fluffy, RP related reward that is actually one of the strongest things in the game as long as the DM isn't out to screw one over and give himself more unpleasant work.

Diplomacy is something that breaks the game open if you get to the point where you can really get an army of NPCs at will. And asking for the DM to screw one's self over if one isn't getting epic skill check results.

[Kyberwulf]

I didn't think the players got to control the Cohort? It doesn't say that in any of the feat discriptions. Wouldn't that mean the DM controls said Cohort.

[GnomeGninjas]

I didn't think the players got to control the Cohort? It doesn't say that in any of the feat discriptions. Wouldn't that mean the DM controls said Cohort.

Oh. I thought they did. The player still get to make the cohort right?

[Helldog]

Oh. I thought they did. The player still get to make the cohort right?
He can, but cohorts and followers are NPCs so they're supposed to be created and controlled by the DM.

[Randomatic]

Oh. I thought they did. The player still get to make the cohort right?

The feat only states that the player selects the race, class and alignment of the cohort. It does state that the cohort and followers are devoted and loyal though.

In my experience, the cohort is created and controlled by the player because the DM can't be bothered with that. However that isn't guaranteed.

It's still much more reliable than relying on Diplomacy, where you aren't guaranteed that any NPC will be willing to go out of their way to risk their life for you.

[Snowbluff]

There are two reasons to take the feat over Diplomacy
Leadership is a guaranteed thing, while Diplomacy is open to interpretation, and Leadership has it's own rules about experience gain for Cohorts and Followers.
If you convince one of the locals to come help you out with a quest, that local should be gaining their own share of any experience gained. While a cohort will come along and you won't lose out on any.

#1 rule of optimization. Never leave anything to interpretation, or the DM will screw you. Or was it never lose caster levels?

Nah, I like mine better. This way you'll always have the books on your side, even if the DM is being a di-... jerk.

[Kyberwulf]

I am pretty sure it says you CAN TRY to pick the race class and alignment..but its not set in stone what your gonna get.

Also, you can lose alot of your leadership score by failing,.. or letting your followers die.

I am pretty sure, if your Leadership score drops past a certain point, you will lose followers and cohorts.

[Randomatic]

I am pretty sure it says you CAN TRY to pick the race class and alignment..but its not set in stone what your gonna get.

Also, you can lose alot of your leadership score by failing,.. or letting your followers die.

I am pretty sure, if your Leadership score drops past a certain point, you will lose followers and cohorts.

Well, if a Cohort shows up that I don't want, I can always tell them to take a hike. If the DM then isn't will to give me a Cohort that I paid for with a feat, I'll find a new game.

You do lose followers if your leadership score drops, but the cohorts level isn't dependent on your leadership score after you've already attracted one.

[Kyberwulf]

If you tell to many Cohorts to take a hike, you will be hit with the Aloofness. Then you get -2 to your Leadership Score for attracting Cohorts.

[chadmeister]

I've never found it was difficult to get an NPC to tag along for the ride, even without the leadership feat. Our DMs have been free with DMNPCs when we want them, and tend to let one of us play them in combat to make things easier for them.

[ericgrau]

I'd rule that they are roughly the same thing and make you pay the feat later for the NPC you picked up. Diplomacy would initiate good relations temporarily for a quick task but it's your actual charisma and the feat that determine a longer bond.

Though I've always been a fan of encouraging everyone to get leadership, to role-play getting the follower and thus level the playing field by giving it to all rather than saying it's overpowered. It's a good role-playing feat. Or even if only some people get it it feels more like the NPC is another party member rather than so-and-so gets 2 PCs that's so unfair.

[HerrTenko]

In my experience (and I tend to concentrate on the fluff rather than the crunchy rulsy side of things, so I'm obviously not trying to optimize that much), those two options have their own advantages and their own problems.

Diplomacy is a good way of getting allies "wherever" you go, given you're actually playing it smart and are doing the right things to get allies, so you get more flexibility (you can actually get a powerful ally in the new town you just got to, which might be interesting) for more work (if you play it stupid, you won't get anything anyway).

Leadership grants you one or many followers, which might be very nice, because you really control them, you paid for them and thus it's really hard to actually loose them forever. Plus, you don't owe them anything except being a good leader, which might not be true with "local allies" aquired via diplomacy. On the other hand, you loose the flexible side of diplomacy, which might be a problem : for exemple, if you have a massive army of cohorts but have to travel to a country where people might not bring an army (pretty much any country that's not stupid enough to let random armies enter their territory), you're kind of loosing your advantage for the time being, given it's really not that easy to sneak a whole army past a border.

In the end, it's better to have both. The leader of a mercenary army might have to be a good diplomat to gain allies in countries and obtain legal access for their army. Of course, said allies might do this for a cost, be it cash or favors, but heh, that's what diplomacy and politics are all about. :smalltongue:

[tiercel]

Leadership is always a YMMV feat. In *my* experience, the difference is that:

Leadership cohort

Generally built by the player (subject to DM veto)
Generally run by the player (esp in combat, though the DM may interject RP on the cohort's behalf from time to time) -- player at least knows the full abilities and possessions of cohort
Loyal. Will not betray your PC, take any action against your PC, generally will not do anything other than simply leave even if you manage to cheese them off deliberately


Diplomacy DMPC

Built entirely by DM
Generally run by the DM (may occasionally be lent for combat play to a player, but not necessary or common) -- players don't necessarily know full abilities of DMPC (see below)
When friendly, not necessarily unbreakably loyal; may have own agenda, even at cross-purposes to PC. May be actively malicious and undercover, even secret BBEG

[Coidzor]

If you tell to many Cohorts to take a hike, you will be hit with the Aloofness. Then you get -2 to your Leadership Score for attracting Cohorts.

Yes, at that point you make the DM take a hike.

[navar100]

Granted it's not RAW, but as my DM uses Leadership: the feat is that cost to not only have several people absolutely loyal to you (cohort and followers), but also allows you to establish some sort of organization in the gameworld or an already established organization recognizes you as a Person Of Importance, often the actual head of the organization. It becomes part of the overall campaign plot point, allowing you greater influence over what happens off camera of events than you otherwise could.

Diplomacy allows NPCs at the moment of meeting to speak with you favorably. Even if your request can't be fulfilled, the NPCs wouldn't be insulted, put upon, aggrieved, or otherwise feel negatively towards you for making the request.

[Lither]

Yes, at that point you make the DM take a hike.

I wouldn't. At that point it shows you've been enough of a jerk to the people who voluntarily follow you that it's well-known.

[Little Brother]

I am pretty sure it says you CAN TRY to pick the race class and alignment..but its not set in stone what your gonna get.

Also, you can lose alot of your leadership score by failing,.. or letting your followers die.

I am pretty sure, if your Leadership score drops past a certain point, you will lose followers and cohorts.This is why Thrallherd is pro.

Leadership is always a YMMV feat. In *my* experience, the difference is that:

Leadership cohort

Generally built by the player (subject to DM veto)
Generally run by the player (esp in combat, though the DM may interject RP on the cohort's behalf from time to time) -- player at least knows the full abilities and possessions of cohort
Loyal. Will not betray your PC, take any action against your PC, generally will not do anything other than simply leave even if you manage to cheese them off deliberately


Diplomacy DMPC

Built entirely by DM
Generally run by the DM (may occasionally be lent for combat play to a player, but not necessary or common) -- players don't necessarily know full abilities of DMPC (see below)
When friendly, not necessarily unbreakably loyal; may have own agenda, even at cross-purposes to PC. May be actively malicious and undercover, even secret BBEG
I am not trying to be rude, so if it comes across that way I apologize, but you haven't heard about Diplomancy, have you?

[jackattack]

In the games I've played, diplomacy might let you bring NPCs around to your way of thinking, but it doesn't make them loyal.

So when the goblin horde is bearing down on the village, your diplomacy skill might get the villagers to stand and fight rather than run away, but they are just as likely to go to the captain of the guard for orders as they are your character.

If you want to give orders, take leadership. If you want to negotiate, take diplomacy.

[Helldog]

I am not trying to be rude, so if it comes across that way I apologize, but you haven't heard about Diplomancy, have you?
What are you talking about? :smallconfused:

[Circle of Life]

What are you talking about? :smallconfused:

Diplomancy involves boosting your Diplomacy high enough that you can regularly hit a 50, which instantly converts a frothing-at-the-mouth enemy into a devoted follower of yours.

Thread will hit critical argument mass over diplomacy in T minus four posts.

[Steward]

I always thought that diplomancy was when you use diplomacy in such a way that it might as well be mind control. It usually involves cranking up your diplomacy skill checks to ridiculous heights and using the fact that the diplomacy skill is... somewhat poorly written and even more poorly adjudicated.

[Little Brother]

Diplomancy involves boosting your Diplomacy high enough that you can regularly hit a 50, which instantly converts a frothing-at-the-mouth enemy into a devoted follower of yours.

Thread will hit critical argument mass over diplomacy in T minus four posts.150, actually, though with Naberius you can make a Diplomacy check as a standard action, so with 2 rounds you can.

And that, by the way, is why Changeling Rogues are amazing.

I always thought that diplomancy was when you use diplomacy in such a way that it might as well be mind control. It usually involves cranking up your diplomacy skill checks to ridiculous heights and using the fact that the diplomacy skill is... somewhat poorly written and even more poorly adjudicated.Not exactly, it's 'cuz the ELH added something absolutely absurd to it, the Fanatic level.

[Coidzor]

I wouldn't. At that point it shows you've been enough of a jerk to the people who voluntarily follow you that it's well-known.

No, because at that point the DM has shown that this is not an in-game issue or the result of a simple miscommunication or lack of clear communication like one or two derp cohorts might indicate. After the third derp cohort and having spoken directly to the DM, well, the DM has shown his or her self to clearly just be jerking one's chain by refusing to give a competent cohort despite allowing the feat to be spent in the first place.

This is, how is it said, acting in bad faith? Which is something DMs must not do or it undermines their ability to run a game and have players.

[Ashtagon]

No, because at that point the DM has shown that this is not an in-game issue or the result of a simple miscommunication or lack of clear communication like one or two derp cohorts might indicate. After the third derp cohort and having spoken directly to the DM, well, the DM has shown his or her self to clearly just be jerking one's chain by refusing to give a competent cohort despite allowing the feat to be spent in the first place.

This is, how is it said, acting in bad faith? Which is something DMs must not do or it undermines their ability to run a game and have players.

This is why I never allow Leadership as a feat, or cohorts in general.

I am working on a homebrew solution that will allow a GURPS-style ally, but they won't be "additional PCs" for the player.

[Ravens_cry]

Diplomancy involves boosting your Diplomacy high enough that you can regularly hit a 50, which instantly converts a frothing-at-the-mouth enemy into a devoted follower of yours.

Thread will hit critical argument mass over diplomacy in T minus four posts.
Only if your game is using the Epic Level Handbook. If it isn't, as would be expected for a non-epic game, then this doesn't work.

[Circle of Life]

Only if your game is using the Epic Level Handbook. If it isn't, as would be expected for a non-epic game, then this doesn't work.

Replace devoted follower with newly recruited friend then. The effect is much the same.

[Doug Lampert]

Only if your game is using the Epic Level Handbook. If it isn't, as would be expected for a non-epic game, then this doesn't work.

IIRC those rules are in the 3.5 DMG and in either case the skill rules are specifically mentioned as working for non-epic characters and are in the SRD. Are you using the FREE SRD which is the basic reference on how the rules work?

Not that it matters, helpful as defined in the rules is more than good enough and is actually harder to defend against.

[Ravens_cry]

IIRC those rules are in the 3.5 DMG and in either case the skill rules are specifically mentioned as working for non-epic characters and are in the SRD. Are you using the FREE SRD which is the basic reference on how the rules work?

Not that it matters, helpful as defined in the rules is more than good enough and is actually harder to defend against.
It would be a little odd, though not inconcevible for Epic Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) to be in the DMG and not the ELH.

[Socratov]

indeed, it's the difference between talking a girl into sleeping with you and her taking her panties off on the spot...

[Jeraa]

It would be a little odd, though not inconcevible for Epic Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) to be in the DMG and not the ELH.

Not that odd, seeing as how the 3.5 DMG does have epic rules in it. Not the epic skill uses, however. Just the classes and some feats.

[Coidzor]

This is why I never allow Leadership as a feat, or cohorts in general.

Because you wouldn't be able to avoid acting in bad faith? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Not that odd, seeing as how the 3.5 DMG does have epic rules in it. Not the epic skill uses, however. Just the classes and some feats.
Well, there you have it then. If your game isn't using the ELH, then Fanaticism is no go.

[Coidzor]

Well, there you have it then. If your game isn't using the ELH, then Fanaticism is no go.

One could also use the SRD as well.

[Laniius]

I didn't think the players got to control the Cohort? It doesn't say that in any of the feat discriptions. Wouldn't that mean the DM controls said Cohort.

I don't have the books handy, but in the DMG (where Leadership is in 3.5) it says that the cohort is like a character, under the person's control. I will clarify this when I have the books handy. Also, banning leadership is perfectly kosher even by RAW - it is listed as an optional feat, and is in the DMG. Yes, Rule 0 is that the DM can allow or ban anything, but even ignoring Rule 0 banning leadership is perfectly acceptable.

[Ravens_cry]

One could also use the SRD as well.
Only if your DM explicitly allows the use of the whole SRD, psionics, variant rules and Epic parts included.

[Coidzor]

Only if your DM explicitly allows the use of the whole SRD, psionics, variant rules and Epic parts included.

Much more likely than someone actually having a copy of the ELH, but really, there's no need to get that huffy and go into the hyperbole of saying all variant rules of all things.

Especially considering that the Epic Skills are the most reasonable things from Epic and the most likely thing to be used from that body of material.

[missmvicious]

My DM doesn't forbid books, only requires that he has access to the same rules I do. So if I use a book, I have to provide him with copies of the character relevant pages.

However, I'm not so studious about my builds, and therefore tend to stick to PHB, DMG, MIC, and SpC.

However, none of those books really explain Leadership and how it's used, and I'm not sure at all what a Leadership score is.

So, essentially, Leadership gives you a minion: a hopelessly devoted PC class follower who will do exactly as you say within the realms of it's physical capabilities like an animal companion or a familiar would? I mean... I could see the benefit in that.

And how do you improve your Leadership score? Also, how does it get penalized?

[Steward]

Leadership does give you a cohort, but it also gives you the option of attracting followers (who are low-level NPC servants generally about five levels behind the PC leader). Your leadership score is basically your class level plus your charisma modifier, and your ability to attract minions can be modified further by your behavior, how successful you are, whether you have a base or just wander around all the time. If you're cruel or aloof, you receive a penalty, and the same thing if you cause the death of followers or cohorts.

[Ashtagon]

Because you wouldn't be able to avoid acting in bad faith? :smallconfused:

No. Because I can't avoid the inevitable accusations of acting in bad faith, regardless of my intentions.

[Coidzor]

No. Because I can't avoid the inevitable accusations of acting in bad faith, regardless of my intentions.

Eh? Do you not play with people whose company you actually enjoy or something then? :smallconfused: How hard is it to just communicate?


My DM doesn't forbid books, only requires that he has access to the same rules I do. So if I use a book, I have to provide him with copies of the character relevant pages.

However, I'm not so studious about my builds, and therefore tend to stick to PHB, DMG, MIC, and SpC.

However, none of those books really explain Leadership and how it's used, and I'm not sure at all what a Leadership score is.

And how do you improve your Leadership score? Also, how does it get penalized?

Leadership is in the DMG. The feat text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) is also available online in the SRD.

[missmvicious]

Thanks for the link, Coidzor! I must've failed my spot check there.

Ok... but even the SRD is a little confusing here.

So, it says you can attract a Cohort up to your level, but you can only have a Cohort that is 2 or more levels lower than yourself. :smallconfused:

Anyway... I'm L6, +2 CHA, with a Familiar, so I have a Leadership Score of 6.

According to the chart, I get one L4 Cohort of the PC class of my choosing, right? In fact, I get to build him/her. Then it's just a matter of role-playing the meeting my "Robin" who will automatically think I'm the bestest and want to be my traveling companion for no pay. Or is there more to it than that?

Also, the Leader's Reputation Modifier Chart seems vague. What does it mean to have a Special Power? Are there rules for what determines how generous is generous enough or how cruel is cruel enough, or is that where the DM comes in.

[Helldog]

According to the chart, I get one L4 Cohort of the PC class of my choosing, right? In fact, I get to build him/her. Then it's just a matter of role-playing the meeting my "Robin" who will automatically think I'm the bestest and want to be my traveling companion for no pay. Or is there more to it than that?
You have to, essentially, put out a recruitment ad in local taverns, inns, pubs, ect. and interview NPCs that interest you. You tell your DM what kind of people you search for. Depending on where you are (you won't really find a high level Wizard in the middle of the wilderness, for example), you can attract some NCs. If one of them meets your fancy, you offer him a job as your cohort.

More-or-less. That's how it works in-game. If you do it outside of the game then you have to talk with your DM.

[Coidzor]

Thanks for the link, Coidzor! I must've failed my spot check there.

Ok... but even the SRD is a little confusing here.

So, it says you can attract a Cohort up to your level, but you can only have a Cohort that is 2 or more levels lower than yourself. :smallconfused:

Anyway... I'm L6, +2 CHA, with a Familiar, so I have a Leadership Score of 6.

According to the chart, I get one L4 Cohort of the PC class of my choosing, right? In fact, I get to build him/her. Then it's just a matter of role-playing the meeting my "Robin" who will automatically think I'm the bestest and want to be my traveling companion for no pay. Or is there more to it than that?

Well, you're expected to put them up with room and board and pay their way for such things as would be relevant, and you have to deal with giving them some portion of loot to have them properly kitted out.

With a different feat you can get a cohort of ECL-1, and generally, with the way they gain XP, there's no real risk of them risking approaching the cap. And if they do, well, XP is a river and you can get them to contribute some XP for crafting or spells if they have 'em since they can't level up for a bit anyway.


Also, the Leader's Reputation Modifier Chart seems vague. What does it mean to have a Special Power? Are there rules for what determines how generous is generous enough or how cruel is cruel enough, or is that where the DM comes in.

Yeah, that's a little bit of annoyance there bringing the DM into it like that and not really giving good guidelines, but, generally, unless you're doing something wrong or getting screwed, the leadership modifier is high enough that you'll get the ECL-2 cohort and the only thing that is really altered is the number of followers.

[missmvicious]

Hm. I guess, occasionally the DM deserves the right to call a shot or two. :smallwink:

But I'm still confused about "Special Power." I don't even...

In a world full of crazy insane abilities, what is a Special Power? Are they referring to a Special Ability?

I have an SLA (all of our characters were given one at L1 creation), which is classified as a Special Ability. Is that what they're talking about?

[Urpriest]

Hm. I guess, occasionally the DM deserves the right to call a shot or two. :smallwink:

But I'm still confused about "Special Power." I don't even...

In a world full of crazy insane abilities, what is a Special Power? Are they referring to a Special Ability?

I have an SLA (all of our characters were given one at L1 creation), which is classified as a Special Ability. Is that what they're talking about?

They just mean a character that has a reputation for being especially powerful.

[missmvicious]

Ohhhhh.

Ok. I think that clears up the last of my questions. Thanks, all!

[Ashtagon]

Eh? Do you not play with people whose company you actually enjoy or something then? :smallconfused: How hard is it to just communicate?


The big question is how loyal the cohort is. This is undefined, so most people assume he is essentially 100% loyal, is always present (except when ordered away to fulfil specific orders), has no interests beyond following the PC's wishes, and can instantly know with 100% precision what the PC wants him to do next.

Clearly, the above is unrealistic, never mind the balance (both in party power and in "player's time at table") issue of effectively giving him a second PC to control. Yet since it is undefined in RAW, that's how people want to play them.

Currently, I favour allowing the cohort's level to cap out at 1/2 the PC's level, and that the cohort won't have a significant number of class levels that the PC doesn't have. Yes, this does mean he will fall over if used in the average encounter, and is effectively a mini-me rather than filling in a weak spot in the group's skills and powers. That completely ignores the fact that he is an extra pair of eyes that can be anywhere and give early warnings as appropriate (which is also why wizard familiars are traditionally considered useless.

[missmvicious]

I don't think gimping the Cohort will be necessary. We try to be fair about what a companion can know or do in a conflict, and DM gets veto power if an action seems uncharacteristically synergistic. And, so far, in all but a few scenarios, he's preferred to err in favor of the PCs, and we, in turn try not to abuse the generosity.

The rest is exposition, in case you feel like reading more...

Besides, I think I know what my Cohort will do. I'm a magic items crafter, but I'm sick of waiting for stuff to get made. It takes soooooo long. I'm basically going to build up an L4 Artificer or L4 Wizard so I can make stuff while I make stuff. Then I'll load up on Expert followers (once I reach that level) who can Craft mundane items and alchemical items for me to use or sell to raise money to make MORE MAGICAL ITEMS! So, she probably won't end up in combat much except in a support role.

Besides, I don't think we need more combat types anyway. We have:
L6 Wizard (me :smallbiggrin:)
L5 Druid with Animal Companion
L5 Ranger with venomous Animal Companion
L4 Cleric /L1 Crusader

and a non-combat Cloistered Cleric DMPC.

Now that we've learned more about how to beat up Abyssal types, we're going to start slapping them silly. The thing we've been missing is the right magic items... things that bypass DR. Well that, and Bless Water. Thanks to that sudden revelation, the Clerics have become as gods against the Abyssal types... seeing as how we're marching through the wetlands part of an enchanted rainforest and all.

[tiercel]

Re: Diplomancy

I didn't really address the question of diplomancy before because, in my experience, no one has ever used Diplomacy RAW as absolute hard-and-fast rules in an actual game.

Forget the whole "fanatic" result thing, just the idea that a 2nd level character can go around stopping fights at will, unresistably, is ridiculous.

Presumably to stop a fight in progress all you need is to move subjects from Hostile to Unfriendly; doing so in one full-round action is effectively DC 30, which is reasonably attainable *in Core* without items or spells at level 2 for a Diplomacy-focused character. Give such a character a way of taking 10 on Diplomacy checks even when threatened and/or a few levels, items, and/or spells, and ending the Hostile condition goes from "feasible" to "automatic."

My experience has always been that the Diplomacy table has been treated as guidelines and/or heavily modified by DM-imposed circumstance modifiers. Partly this is a measure of common sense (the rules seem particularly broken) and partly this has been in my experience because players generally play D&D to kill things and take their stuff, not follow the party bard around as he makes everyone his friend and gets them to just get along.

Before anyone calls out "Oberoni" like it's some kind of universal trump card, keep in mind the difference I was drawing between cohort and Diplomacy pal has always been an "in my experience" difference. DMs all treat the Leadership feat a little differently, and that tends to apply to the Diplomacy skill too. DMs who do play Diplomacy by RAW will quickly face significant problems as soon as a PC decides to significantly Diplomance.

The fact of the matter is that Leadership is at least a potentially problematic feat, depending on the DM and campaign, and Diplomacy consists of more than a potentially problematic set of rules. Given this, any comparison between the two *as might play out in an actual game* is going to have to call upon experiences playing that game.

[missmvicious]

I never thought the "Diplomancer" thing was serious. :smallconfused: A Diplomancer isn't RAW, because you cannot, through a Diplomacy roll, instantly turn a Hostile character into a Friendly character, regardless of what your bonus is to Diplomacy. It takes a full round action just, to head off a fight, which only stops an immediate attack if you have the INIT advantage over the attacker, but does not change one's attitude toward you. Changing someone's attitude towards you takes at least 10 consecutive rounds.

PHB pg. 71 -71:
Action: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check (such as an attempt to head off a fight between two angry warriors) can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.

"Head off" means "to prevent the occurrence of" (wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn), so even the full round "Can't we all just get along?" speech won't help if the battle has already begun. I tend to use Diplomacy a lot to get my way, but if done by RAW (unless there are books out there that have redefined Diplomacy) it can't be used the way the Diplomancer was conceptualized to be used, which is to say, "Oh no, the BBEG! He's got a readied attack and he's killing our party's meat tank! I use my free action to break Initiative and use my Diplomacy roll to make him my best friend and new traveling companion! I got a 72! Whew... game over. That was a great campaign guys! Now, aren't you glad I made a Bard?"

Even if it were, it's game breaking to play it that way anyway, and where would the fun be in it? I mainly use Diplomacy with those who are willing to at least discuss things... even if they are initially Hostile. Anybody who has a "shoot first, let Wee Jas sort 'em out" mentality, I prefer to kill with fire.

[Helldog]

Action: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check (such as an attempt to head off a fight between two angry warriors) can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.
Emphasis mine. It gives one example. EXAMPLE. It's not definitive, it's not restrictive in any way. You can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action by taking -10 penalty on the roll. That's it.

[Circle of Life]

There are also a handful of ways to make rushed or rushed+ diplomacy checks without a penalty. So yes, it's RAW. It's RAW in the same way that Pun-Pun is RAW however, as nobody will seriously use it in a game.

This is what some people fail to understand. They see a TO exploit found and praised, and assume that people actually try to use them. No. They're THEORETICAL optimization, not something that is actually used.

[Helldog]

There are also a handful of ways to make rushed or rushed+ diplomacy checks without a penalty. So yes, it's RAW. It's RAW in the same way that Pun-Pun is RAW however, as nobody will seriously use it in a game.

This is what some people fail to understand. They see a TO exploit found and praised, and assume that people actually try to use them. No. They're THEORETICAL optimization, not something that is actually used.
Uh... What's theoretical in using Diplomacy like it is supposed to be used? :smallconfused:
It's purpose is to influence NPCs, change their attitude towards you. And that's what you do.

[missmvicious]

A rock solid Diplomancer build can overcome a -10 penalty anyway. That's not the flaw in the build. The flaw in the build is that it assumes the rushed Diplomacy roll can be used:
a) as a free immediate action, as if they were simply talking
b) to change an intelligent creature's attitude toward you.

A rushed Diplomacy roll is a full round action, so unless you've got the higher Initiative, you can't talk your way out of a Hostile situation with a Diplomacy roll. However, even if you win the INIT roll, the rushed Diplomacy still leaves the creature Hostile, and therefore possibly still in Initiative. You may have stopped it from attacking someone, but you didn't necessarily stop it from attacking, and until you can subdue it and make it listen to what you have to say for 10 full rounds, it's not going to change its attitude toward you or anyone else.

...

Or am I misinterpreting the concept of the Diplomancer? :smallconfused:

Sometimes I forget that I am wrong about D&D rules more often than I'm right.

[Circle of Life]

Uh... What's theoretical in using Diplomacy like it is supposed to be used? :smallconfused:
It's purpose is to influence NPCs, change their attitude towards you. And that's what you do.

Theoretical optimization is the Diplomancer, who instantly wins everything ever by opening his mouth and gathering a horde of loyal servants. That's what I was referring to.


Or am I misinterpreting the concept of the Diplomancer? :smallconfused:

Most often, the Diplomancer praised can make full-on Diplomacy checks with a standard action. As the rules for theorycrafting exist in a vacuum, said Diplomancer is capable of making epic skill checks at non-epic levels (as it isn't stated anywhere that you have to be epic level to use epic usages of the skills, this isn't necessarily relevant), to hit a 150 check on Diplomacy and turn everyone who can hear him into the next thing to mindslaves.

[Gavinfoxx]

A proper Diplomancer can, with a rushed Diplomacy roll, change someone from Hostile to Fanatic.

[Helldog]

a) as a free immediate action, as if they were simply talking
Where did you get that from? It's not true. A Diplomancer uses a full-round action like he's supposed to. I've never seen someone insisting that you can use it as an immediate action. :smallconfused:


b) to change an intelligent creature's attitude toward you.
But... that's what Diplomacy is about. :smallconfused:


Theoretical optimization is the Diplomancer, who instantly wins everything ever by opening his mouth and gathering a horde of loyal servants. That's what I was referring to.
I know what you were referring to. And no, that's not what a Diplomancer is. A Diplomancer is someone who invested into Diplomacy, optimized it so he can change enemies into friends, when applicable.

[missmvicious]

A proper Diplomancer can, with a rushed Diplomacy roll, change someone from Hostile to Fanatic.

?!? :smalleek:

How?!

Is there actually a Feat out there that lets someone convert a 10 round action into a full round action?

[Circle of Life]

?!? :smalleek:

How?!

Is there actually a Feat out there that lets someone convert a 10 round action into a full round action?

Not a feat so much as making use of a certain... grinning hound, shall we say?
*coughNaberiuscough*

[missmvicious]

But... that's what Diplomacy is about. :smallconfused:

It is what Diplomacy is about. But it takes 10 rounds to change someone's attitude. A rushed Diplomacy check can't change someone's attitude. It can only abate a current hostile action, kind of like a gym coach saying, "Alright, break it up, you two!"

It doesn't end the Hostility. It merely delays the Hostile action.

[Circle of Life]

It is what Diplomacy is about. But it takes 10 rounds to change someone's attitude. A rushed Diplomacy check can't change someone's attitude. It can only abate a current hostile action, kind of like a gym coach saying, "Alright, break it up, you two!"

It doesn't end the Hostility. It merely delays the Hostile action.

Naberius, the Grinning Hound, a vestige from Tome of Magic, allows you to make a full-scale Diplomacy check as a full-round action without taking a penalty to your roll. So, yeah.

Certain abilities can reduce this full-round action further. Heck, you could put on a Belt of Battle and technically make one as a swift action.

[missmvicious]

:smallfrown:

That takes the fun out of Diplomacy, and now my illusions of strategy are shattered against the cold, hard surface of a source book.

[Circle of Life]

:smallfrown:

That takes the fun out of Diplomacy, and now my illusions of strategy are shattered against the cold, hard surface of a source book.

Again, the theoretical ability to win everything ever with a certain combination of feats, abilities, races and substitution levels is meant to represent the limit to which 3.5's ruleset can be stretched. It's not a baseline that anyone who wants to use Diplomacy has to meet or be kicked out of the Cool Kids Club.

[cheezewizz2000]

My GM allowed the leadership feat, you just couldn't take your Cohort along with you while you adventured. Instead, they stayed behind and ran what ever organisation you wanted to set up. Our rogue had a spymaster as his Cohort, and he was the BEST damn source of information we ever had. Our GM used him as an adventure seed on more than one occasion.

[Helldog]

?!? :smalleek:

How?!

Is there actually a Feat out there that lets someone convert a 10 round action into a full round action?
...

Rushed Diplomacy?


A rushed Diplomacy check can't change someone's attitude.
Says you.

[Gavinfoxx]

"Action
Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check."

www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

Nowhere does it say a rushed diplomacy check can't change someone's attitude, just that it gets a -10 to the check.

Hostile to fanatic requires a check of 150. You take a -10 for rushing, and can generally take 10, even in combat, because there is a class that lets you do that if you are going all out for the skill...

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416112732/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-163146

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115159/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519

http://web.archive.org/web/20080415064621/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416121423/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-526536

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122711/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-659348

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122757/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-684349

[missmvicious]

That's actually a pretty clever use for a Cohort, cheezewizz2000. I may use mine that way eventually to run a Magic Items shop to raise money, and build magic items, for the party while we're out adventuring.

Ooh! It could eventually turn into a Wizard's or Artificer's school! Fluff-wise, that would be great. My PCs father is a teacher in a Wizard's school. Taking after dear-old-dad would make him proud, and give us an army of magic item builders at my command. MWAHAHAHAHahahahahahaha!

...

My character is LG. I swear.

[missmvicious]

-snip

I'm not going to sweat it Gavinfoxx. My mind was sufficiently blown already. I should just remind myself that if it's 3.5, it's always breakable... within RAW. Right now, the reality of just how terrible at game/build mechanics I am is sending me back to my first time performing a concert solo ever. I was 14 and really proud of myself and how hard I worked to get to that point. But my director, ever the sadist, decided to change it to a tandem solo with a college senior... some stupid guest performer who used to be his student, effectively making me redundant. :smallfrown:

I'm... just... going to... go back to the original topic. It was my mistake for ever doubting.

[Helldog]

I'm not going to sweat it Gavinfoxx. My mind was sufficiently blown already. I should just remind myself that if it's 3.5, it's always breakable... within RAW. Right now, the reality of just how terrible at game/build mechanics I am is sending me back to my first time performing a concert solo ever. I was 14 and really proud of myself and how hard I worked to get to that point. But my director, ever the sadist, decided to change it to a tandem solo with a college senior... some stupid guest performer who used to be his student, effectively making me redundant. :smallfrown:
Cool story, bro.

[missmvicious]

:smallmad:

Not a bro.

But anyways. Thanks, everyone for all the advice on Leadership and Cohorts. I think I have enough information to go on. I've discussed what I learned here with the DM, and we know what I'm going to do.

[MukkTB]

A Cohort doesn't suck up XPs from the party. An NPC fighting with you very easily could. Which is another advantage to the cohort.

Why is any NPC who is part of the party called a DMPC? DMPC is when the DM makes a character to be him so he can be a player in addition to being the DM. Its heavily frowned upon. An NPC in the party doesn't imply the DM is using it as his personal avatar. Yeah he has to direct it. But he has to direct almost all NPCs. That doesn't make every one of them his personal avatar and DMPC. An NPC in the party doesn't imply DMPC. It only threatens it.

NPC in the party =/= DMPC

They are very simular phenomena, but there is a significant difference of intent.

Ok. I go to the town guard and try to hire a warrior there. "How much gold for you to drop your job and come be my bodyguard?" He says, "300 GP a month with health benefits and a share of the loot." I say, "Either you get 300GP a month and a quarter share or you get a full share but no monthly payment." He says, "Ok 300 GP a month, health benefits, and a quarter share." I say, "Deal." So the DM tries to stat up a guardsmen as best he can.

OK. The DM makes a character he wants to be. He thinks of the coolest concept he can. Then he makes it. He tells the party, "A guy in a dark cloak with fire in his eyes is offering to join your quest."

You guys can see a difference right?

[Helldog]

I'd say that an NPC in the party is someone the PCs wanted or needed, while a DMPC is an NPC that was forced into the team by the DM.

[MukkTB]

Mostly I'd agree on that. Although I can think of some borderline cases where a NPC asks (doesn't demand) to join the group because their inclusion directly ties into the plot.

[Helldog]

That's why I said "wanted or needed".