Wishes: Outwitting the Genie

[legomaster00156]

So, we've all had it happen. A Djinn, Glabrezu, or similar creature offers you a Wish. Naturally, the problem here is that unless your Wish is for something appropriate to your level or quest (and sometimes even if they are), the Wish will be twisted so far from your original intent that your character is left robbed of his magic items and begging for copper pieces on a street corner.
The smart players will try to beat the Wish-giver at their own game. They will spend half an hour at the table, writing down a contract stating exactly what they want, and exactly what will happen if and when they get it. These contracts would put most legal documents to shame. Then their Wish gets twisted by a loophole found in Section V, Paragraph iii, line 2.
Naturally, you can't actually beat the DM at this game. By the rules, a Wish that is too powerful simply doesn't work. But it is so gloriously fun to try. So, this thread is for attempting to create flawless Wishes for all of your heart's desires. I will give some ideas, but you can try to create a contract for anything.

1. Immunity to damage
2. Eternal life AND eternal youth (one of the most obvious loopholes of the "eternal life" thing)
3. All of the accumulated knowledge of the universe

[Gavinfoxx]

Why even play the game? It's not like it is that hard to get a creature that won't subvert the wishes? And there are plenty of ways to get those sorts of things without Wishes, including things like immunity to damage (or at least inability to die via hit point damage or whatever) for any given fight you might need it in, or at least all the useful bits of those without Wishes? And why not just use the sorts of things that the Wish spell says it can do?

Really, if you are looking for an Efreeti to grant you a capital W-Wish to solve your problems, you aren't thinking about the best way to solve those problems. Just Simulacrum the damn thing a few times, you'll be fine, those are completely loyal to you. Or pay the XP. Or solve all your problems through other spells. Whatever.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's start with "[Wish X] without anything I'd consider undesirable happening if I knew about it."

[candycorn]

Let's start with "[Wish X] without anything I'd consider undesirable happening if I knew about it."

Wish amended, partial fulfillment:

[Wish X] without anything I'd consider undesirable happening if I knew about it.

Further limited by the specific wish.

[Jack_Simth]

Wish amended, partial fulfillment:

[Wish X] without anything I'd consider undesirable happening if I knew about it.

Further limited by the specific wish.
*Any* wish can have that problem, bar none. That's not the genie's game, though.

[candycorn]

*Any* wish can have that problem, bar none. That's not the genie's game, though.

And the game is also, "elaborate descriptions of what you want, and protections from any mishap you can imagine", not "say nuh uh bad stuff doesn't happen in one line".

Alternately, the wish does a greater effect, and mindrapes you into enjoying mindrapes, and otherwise not getting your wish fulfilled. Now you don't consider it undesirable.

[Arbane]

If the DM/Genie insists on doing this, use the Douglas Hofstadter Logic Bomb: "I wish this wish would not be granted."

[Tenno Seremel]

If the DM/Genie insists on doing this, use the Douglas Hofstadter Logic Bomb: "I wish this wish would not be granted."

Wish ability used up. Nothing happens. Enjoy your wasted wish :}

EDIT: Alternatively, the past is altered so you never met the Genie.

[candycorn]

If the DM/Genie insists on doing this, use the Douglas Hofstadter Logic Bomb: "I wish this wish would not be granted."

Nothing visible happens, and the genie says, "Wish granted, and this sentence is a lie."

[Chess435]

Nothing visible happens, and the genie says, "Wish granted, and this sentence is a lie."

Well played, Candycorn, well played. :smallwink:

[Little Brother]

Eternal life and youth is easy. "I wish to have a suitable ring(Or just have a suitable ring ahead of time), and then have Kissed by the Ages cast on me and it."

Immunity to damage is easy enough without wish. Use one of several ways to get immunity to nonlethal damage, then PsyRef to the Troll-blooded feat. Then get the ritual of subtyping(Or the spell from Sandstorm) for Fire, get immunity to acid. Simply "I wish I was immune to acid damage, fire damage, and subdual damage."

For the accumulated knowledge of the universe, wish for "Three loyal servants with the following items: 4 sets of the Boots of the Resilient Worker (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Spell replicated: Delay Death
Boots of the Resilient Mastermind (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Spell replicated: Delay Death

Goggles of the Martyr (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Spell replicated: Glory of the Martyr

Bracers of Sharing and Caring (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Power replicated: Share Pain

Gloves of the Painlord (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Spell replicated: Masochism

Amulet of the Beast (Single Use, Use-Activated)
- Spell replicated: Beastland Ferocity

Ring of Calling to Collect (Single use, use-activated)
- Spell replicated: Sending, then PsiRef Wedded To History with the Wanderer ability(You can make any skill check untrained with a -2 penalty and immortality and youthfulness, so also covers #2). Also, make a decent Haiku. I'm pretty sure everyone knows what to do from there.

[gkathellar]

3. All of the accumulated knowledge of the universe

A 4th-level artificier with an infinite loop can do this one.

[Psyren]

Just stick with the listed uses. If your DM tries to screw those, whack him with the PHB, hard.

Even if you can't think of a single spell you want cast on you, you want to tell me there are no magic items you could possibly want created or modified? Or nowhere in the multiverse you and your companions would like to be sent to? (When in doubt, Elysium, for non-evil parties.)

[Vortling]

Just stick with the listed uses. If your DM tries to screw those, whack him with the PHB, hard.

Even if you can't think of a single spell you want cast on you, you want to tell me there are no magic items you could possibly want created or modified? Or nowhere in the multiverse you and your companions would like to be sent to? (When in doubt, Elysium, for non-evil parties.)

Absolutely this. It's not worth the trouble to try to lawyer your way around a wish. Once you're in the purview of the wish can be twisted part of wish you've already lost. This is why I prefer miracle. Lots of great uses and depending on your deity selection it's being granted by an entity who is 1) benevolent and 2) interested in not being a **** to you specifically.

[jackattack]

IMO, the trick is to get what would be a major effect IRL, but has little or no impact on the campaign overall. (Which frequently boils down to what requires the least effort from the DM.)

Something that confers an immediate advantage is more likely to work than something that confers a long-term advantage.

Avoid "and" wishes. One wish, one effect.

Similarly, expansive and all-inclusive wishes invite retribution, partly because they are game-breakers, and partly because they require a lot of work from the DM. Open-ended wishes allow the DM to balance them from the outset. Compare and contrast wishing to be "a better fighter", "the best fighter in the land", "the best fighter in the world", and "the best fighter in the history of the world".


But we have to accept that if the DM is philosophically predisposed to make your character's life miserable, then no amount of wrangling or wordsmithing is going to help.

[Little Brother]

Absolutely this. It's not worth the trouble to try to lawyer your way around a wish. Once you're in the purview of the wish can be twisted part of wish you've already lost. This is why I prefer miracle. Lots of great uses and depending on your deity selection it's being granted by an entity who is 1) benevolent and 2) interested in not being a **** to you specifically.Which is why the Envy Domain is cool. A miracle to the god you're asking probably will get you damn near whatever you ask.

[Psyren]

Which is why the Envy Domain is cool. A miracle to the god you're asking probably will get you damn near whatever you ask.

Alternatively, he'll decide to give you nothing at all because he wants you to be envious of everyone else. :smalltongue:

[Sgt. Cookie]

I wish that you will not grant this wish.

[Psyren]

I wish that you will not grant this wish.

Partial fulfillment, gg

[afroakuma]

:smallsigh:

I'm obliged to step in and evil these up now. Bear in mind that the so-called "perfect" wish has already been devised and requires a ton of things no reasonable DM would allow, and still has torpedoes available outside its wording.


1. Immunity to damage

The Slime Tyrant of Agrathiva commanded a slab of the most impervious material in the multiverse to use as the base of his throne. Congratulations: you are that slab.

Your wish has been granted.


2. Eternal life AND eternal youth (one of the most obvious loopholes of the "eternal life" thing)

Without the clause you really need, so:

Welcome to the life of a baby naked mole rat! You won't be able to speak as you've been de-aged, nor will you be able to learn with all that brain matter resetting day after day. I'm sure some curious wizard will happen along wanting an immortal, ageless baby naked mole rat to experiment on every single day, though, so don't fret.

Your wish has been granted.


3. All of the accumulated knowledge of the universe

There are some things man was not to know, things that would drive a mortal mind beyond the capacity for rational thought. Congratulations, here are all of those things! Enjoy insanity followed by aneurysm and total mental collapse as your brain is crushed under the weight of more knowledge than a mortal mind could hold.

Your wish has been granted.

Next time, pick a djinn. :smalltongue:

[jackattack]

Are we doing that? Cos I'll play.



1. Immunity to damage

Hey, congratulations on your invulnerability to damage. Prepare to be webbed, resined, grappled, hypnotized, sleeped, sphered, gassed, and otherwise immobilized in every future combat.



2. Eternal life AND eternal youth (one of the most obvious loopholes of the "eternal life" thing)

Granted. Prepare to be trapped in an impenetrable sarcophagus or a really unpleasant dimension for the rest of your long, miserable life.



3. All of the accumulated knowledge of the universe

Omniscience is yours. Let me tell you the entire plot of the campaign, all of the secrets and puzzles and plot points and traps and correct routes and NPC motivations and creature weaknesses, and next session you guys can travel to the endgame and we'll wrap this sucker up.

[Flickerdart]

I believe the idea isn't "make fun of the OP for wishing for silly things" but rather "how do we wish for these things and other things like these without turning into insane mole rats made of stone".

[Eurus]

Naturally, you can't actually beat the DM at this game. By the rules, a Wish that is too powerful simply doesn't work. But it is so gloriously fun to try.

So yeah, don't really need to be quite so disdainful, folks. It's just an entertaining thought experiment.

Personally I like the idea of "I wish for the ability to instantly learn with perfect accuracy the answer to any question I pose". It's not the most efficient use of a Wish, but it's theoretically almost as good as infinite knowledge without the mind-shattering drawbacks since you have to consciously attempt to learn whatever facts you want.

There's the possibility of the entity saying "wish granted but on a completely unrelated note you are now made of stone/decapitated/mindless", and if you want to avoid that possibility it basically requires adding a page or two of legalese onto the end of any wish you can think of.

[Ravens_cry]

Upon which partial fulfilment clause can come into effect and remove such legalese. Basically, don't screw around with wishes.
Just ask for something nice, simple, not game breaking, but flavourful and appropriate. Legalese just invites DM screwing around.

[Rubik]

See, I like efreet with their 3 Wishes (assuming I can't just Simulacrum them up).

Since no djinn can grant itself wishes (only humanoids and other types), I'd try to make friends, and offer to give it the third Wish if the first two were granted for me to my satisfaction. It screws up, it doesn't get a reward. If it intentionally grants them badly, I'll simply carve its hide up using my buffed-all-to-hell summonses and make myself a Simulacrum, or I'll torture it to death and raise it as an undead critter with all of its previous abilities that is subject to my whims.

Don't screw with a prepared wizard (unless he asks you to :smallamused:).

[Toliudar]

See, I like efreet with their 3 Wishes (assuming I can't just Simulacrum them up).

Since no djinn can grant itself wishes (only humanoids and other types), I'd try to make friends, and offer to give it the third Wish if the first two were granted for me to my satisfaction. It screws up, it doesn't get a reward. If it intentionally grants them badly, I'll simply carve its hide up using my buffed-all-to-hell summonses and make myself a Simulacrum, or I'll torture it to death and raise it as an undead critter with all of its previous abilities that is subject to my whims.

Don't screw with a prepared wizard (unless he asks you to :smallamused:).

The difficulty with this is that - even assuming that the sent-awry wish doesn't leave you unable to act - the DM doesn't care if you torment the djinn. Besides, I prefer an interpretation that the perversion/limitation of intent is built into the wish magic itself, and isn't directly under the control of the wish-granter. Or else a ring of three wishes would give you exactly what you (think you) want.

[jackattack]

But weren't djinn and efreets actually demons to start with? They wanted to torment people. The best way to deal with their wishes is not to make them.

A ring or other magic device (that isn't specifically cursed or blessed) doesn't have any actual discretion. A literal result is to be expected. A wish granted by a spell might also be lacking in discretion, if the caster only activates the effect.

Only when you are dealing with a sentient guiding force (harkening back to djinn, or gods, or powerful casters who actually control or guide their wish spells for others) can you base the result of a wish on how good or evil or playful the granter is, and how they regard the wisher.

----

Okay, how to get what we actually want from a wish...

1. Invulnerability to damage.

Try wishing for an item or potion that confers the effect, rather than wishing for the effect itself. "I wish for a completed batch of steelskin potions" or "I wish for a map to the location to the lost Chainmail of Imperviousness" gets you what you want, but either less of it (potions) or it makes you earn it (map to armor). If you absolutely must have the effect bonded to yourself, specify the nature/source of the invulnerability -- such as a permanent steelskin spell.

2. Immortality and eternal youth.

First, just ask for eternal youth. It's eternal, so immortality is included. Try asking to stop aging until you die. Or to be remain physically thirty years old as long as you live. DO NOT wish that you could never die; it's just begging for trouble.

3. The accumulated knowledge of the universe.

As mentioned before, a more directed ability is probably safer, such as the ability to correctly answer any question put to the character a certain number of times per day/week/month for the rest of his life. Alternatively, wish for a magic tome that achieves a similar effect -- it might be like Tom Riddle's diary but with correct answers to one question written on each page up to X pages. Or, you might wish to know the location of a reliable oracle or sage, or how to contact a friendly deity, thus removing most of the direct risks of this wish.


Better?

[Snowbluff]

3. All of the accumulated knowledge of the universe

Me as DM:"Okay!"
You: "Really?!"
Me: "Of you're okay with it"
You: "HEck yes"
Me: "You're in a catatonic state. Your head explodes. The eternity it took to acquire this knowledge, manually via time-loop, was an eternity long, which was how long your eternity of life was, making you no longer eternal youthful and able to die. By the way, no single spell would of done this, you're lucky I let you have it."

[Glimbur]

My current approach to being given three wishes is to spend the first wish to know the consequences of any future wishes you consider making to this genie/efreet/fill in appropriate monster here. Short of going Chaos Theory and giving you every consequence of the wish from now to the end of time (which is funny) the DM is probably ok with this. After all, you spend a wish on it. It's like pre-emptively spending a wish to fix your terrible first wish, but better.

[OracleofWuffing]

But weren't djinn and efreets actually demons to start with? They wanted to torment people.
What if we torment them by making wishes in their favor? I wish you had a solid gold ferrari! Ha! Corrupt that wish!

*Solid gold ferrari-shaped shadow appears on the ground, slide whistle starts playing* :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

My current approach to being given three wishes is to spend the first wish to know the consequences of any future wishes you consider making to this genie/efreet/fill in appropriate monster here. Short of going Chaos Theory and giving you every consequence of the wish from now to the end of time (which is funny) the DM is probably ok with this. After all, you spend a wish on it. It's like pre-emptively spending a wish to fix your terrible first wish, but better.
Actually, the problem is that the simplest way to find out the consequences of an arbitrary effect is to have the effect happen. So the next time you contemplate a wish, it occurs.

[Tenno Seremel]

What if we torment them by making wishes in their favor? I wish you had a solid gold ferrari! Ha! Corrupt that wish!
Solid gold ferrari appears. On top of you. You've lost your body and now you are a spirit that powers this vehicle.

[Reaver225]

The traditional method of making evil wish granters safe is to waste a wish to make the other two wishes safe: eg wishing the morality of the wish granted changes to match yours, or that the wish granted grants the next two wishes with the intent of soley benefiting the wish maker as the wish maker desires.

[Aharon]

Last thread dealing with that: here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158443)

Complete version of the relatively fool-proof wish:
I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, unless I would determine, under the same conditions as found below, that if I was to be asked (and given the same information as below) whether I would wish this to occur, I would give my explicit approval can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect, direct or indirect, on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, and in descending order from most to least probable, determined to the best of your (1) abilities and with granting you (1) perfect information, in the same manner as above, which is removed upon completion of the granting of this wish, in Modron, and asked for my approval, which will be determined as it would if I was hale in both mind and body - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur; this REPL (3) is applied first to itself (including this statement) and then to the parts of the wish that do not include itself; that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that even under the same conditions as above there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur, and in no event can such a solution require or include my death.


(1) "you" is the "wish-granting entity" or the forces of the multiverse, depending on the type of wish. substitute it as such. (2)
(2) footnotes are not actually part of the wish, just a quick clarification of stuff.
(3) REPL is a programming term - here we use it to mean the methods used to allow for recursive interpretation verification

Comments/Refutation found in the thread and also on BG.

[OracleofWuffing]

Solid gold ferrari appears. On top of you.
Yes, I thought I implied that would happen. :smallannoyed:

You've lost your body and now you are a spirit that powers this vehicle.
You know... Depending on the game, I think I'll say I'd be pretty happy with that result.

[Tenno Seremel]

Yes, I thought I implied that would happen. :smallannoyed:
I'm not good at reading people over Internet apparently… %)