What is wrong with mounted combat? (evolved into how to build an archer gish) [Archive]

Hazzardevil

2012-01-01, 01:42 PM

NeoSeraphi

2012-01-01, 01:54 PM

Absolutely nothing! With the cavalry prestige class from Complete Warrior, mounted combat is a beastly powerhouse of a system. If homebrew is allowed, and you get The_Demented_One's Twin Spirit discipline, you can make a great crusader knight character, or warblade if you take Martial Study (Twin Spirit) to get Ride as a class skill.

Who told you Mounted Combat was gimped? It suffers the same problems as TWF and Archery, namely, it has a high feat tax and not much class support, but it is in no way a poor choice of strategy.

Zaq

2012-01-01, 01:59 PM

Basically, you need to be small and have a medium mount, or you'll have a hard time fitting in most places. You have to have a scaling mount that's ideally easy to replace, or you'll only last until some goblin putz shoots a couple arrows to your horsie. You'll want to have at least a few feats to burn on getting mounted combat up to snuff. If you can't charge for some reason, a lot of the benefits of mounted combat go away. It can sometimes be tricky to handle distributing buffs to both you and your mount.

Those are pretty much the big issues. None of them are impossible to overcome, but they're enough to make it tricky for most people. Do note that Wild Cohort doesn't explicitly include a clause for replacing your fuzzy friend, nor does it give you an option to let it instantly GTFO if things go south (like, say, a Paladin's mount can), so it's still sorta-kinda fragile.

Mounted combat isn't terrible, and its not impossible, but neither is is an easy or obvious choice much of the time.

Hazzardevil

2012-01-01, 02:02 PM

Fax Celestis

2012-01-01, 02:05 PM

The biggest issue I have with mounted combat is how vague it is.

navar100

2012-01-01, 02:10 PM

There are many imbalances in 3.5, so that made me wonder something, what is wrong with mounted combat? Since I am told it has problems and is gimped but I can't think of what it is.

Since the problem of the weak mount is solved by wild cohort, so what is wrong with it?

Mechanically: nothing.

Gaming: You tend not to have access to your mount when traveling in mountains, swamps, and dungeons; thus, you lose access to invested feats and class features for a long period of real world and game world playing time by virtue of playing the game.

Hazzardevil

2012-01-01, 02:20 PM

Gaming: You tend not to have access to your mount when traveling in mountains, swamps, and dungeons; thus, you lose access to invested feats and class features for a long period of real world and game world playing time by virtue of playing the game.

I'm going to be playing this character in the savage tide. Am I going to be having these problems often? Does it happen often enough that I should try a different character.

Incanur

2012-01-01, 02:23 PM

Mechanically, Ride-By Attack and the charge rules don't make any sense together. The FAQ tells us to just do something outside of the RAW because it's a way to actually have things work. With that aside, mounted combat performs well in suitable environments. Whether you'll be in those environments depends on the campaign.

lord pringle

2012-01-01, 02:28 PM

I'm going to be playing this character in the savage tide. Am I going to be having these problems often? Does it happen often enough that I should try a different character.

Oh gods you need to change NOW! It's swashbuckling high seas fun and demon tromping through the abyss and caves of zombies and savage creatures who can turn your mount into a monster!

Circle of Life

2012-01-01, 02:31 PM

Oh gods you need to change NOW! It's swashbuckling high seas fun and demon tromping through the abyss and caves of zombies and savage creatures who can turn your mount into a monster!

Sounds like good times to me.

On topic, the easiest way to ensure usability of a given mount is to a) be small, and b) pick a flying mount. Unless the situation ends up with you underwater, you should be good to go with that combination anywhere you are.

As I recall, there are a number of low-level options for medium-sized flying creatures.

Hazzardevil

2012-01-01, 02:36 PM

Hmm, good thing this is a PBP I haven't even started building a character for yet.

In that case I'll try a archer gish.
I use spells to control the battlefield and put myself out of reach of enemies and shoot stuff with a bow.

Here's what I have in my head so far.

Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799707&postcount=4)/Abjurant Champion 5
The game starts at level 2, so what spells should I start with and aim to learn later on.

In other words, I'm a battlefield controller who uses his bow when he has nothing else to do.

Any magic items or named weapons or armour to try and get?

Mystic Muse

2012-01-01, 02:40 PM

If the game starts at level 2, and it's a PbP, don't bother making a 20 level build, even a theoretical one. You're never going to get to level 20 in a PbP from level 2.

Hazzardevil

2012-01-01, 02:43 PM

I can be optimistic can't I?
It's Circle of Life who's DMing, so I think I can expect him not to just abandon the game after taking a look through the game he's DM'ed.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-01, 02:50 PM

Is it possible to do without going with what boils down to a mounted Ubercharger? Since I want to try a mounted archery character, while most people like to thing of the knight in shining armour when they think mounted combat, I prefer the mongolion archer.

Horse archery is brilliant if you can manage two things.
1) The encounter is in open terrain with non-flying foes who aren't archers.
2) Everyone in your party is a ranged mounted combatant.

Manage these two things and congradulations. You win that fight. It's normally not even worth rolling the dice. I've started a fight by asking a mounted archer player group "Do you do anything stupid", they said, "No", I said, "They die. You collect the loot."

But if not everyone is mounted then you are an innefficient archer while the rest of your party does the fighting since they can't avoid melee. If the encounter isn't in relatively open terrain then you simply can't use your fighting style.

It's a niche build in a game that largely values generalists, and its a niche build that works best when the entire party is using that build. Check with your group prior to trying this.

Mystic Muse

2012-01-01, 02:54 PM

I can be optimistic can't I?
It's Circle of Life who's DMing, so I think I can expect him not to just abandon the game after taking a look through the game he's DM'ed.

It's not a matter of how reliable the DM is, it's a matter of the pace at which PbP games work. Unless you guys level up REALLY quickly, or all of you guys just post a ton each day, there's no feasible way you're reaching level 20 in a reasonable amount of time.

The traditional number of equal level encounters one needs to reach the next level is about 13 if I recall correctly. A game in real life might get through 4 combats per session or so. Now, let's assume this theoretical group meets once a week.

Now, we take 18, multiply it by 13, and divide the result by 4. That's 58 weeks, and that's assuming there's four combats each session. Sometimes, there's not any combat in a session. In my experience, PbPs can get through the equivalent of a 4 hour session in roughly a month if everybody is active. So, instead of 58 weeks, the amount of time it would take to get from level 2 to level 20 is about 58 months. That's nearly 5 years.

Yes, I realize I'm making several assumptions there and not all of them are likely to be true. Going by the rules as written though, it's going to take a very long time.

herrhauptmann

2012-01-01, 03:08 PM

On topic, the easiest way to ensure usability of a given mount is to a) be small, and b) pick a flying mount. Unless the situation ends up with you underwater, you should be good to go with that combination anywhere you are.

You forgot c)Be your own mount.
Tauric template, centaurs, bariaurs, and others.
It also gets rid of the question of whether you can use mounted charging feats AND leap attack. Rather than jumping off of your horse/dog mid-charge.

Urpriest

2012-01-01, 04:20 PM

You forgot c)Be your own mount.
Tauric template, centaurs, bariaurs, and others.
It also gets rid of the question of whether you can use mounted charging feats AND leap attack. Rather than jumping off of your horse/dog mid-charge.

Fun for chargers, but useless for mounted archery, since the only advantage of the latter is mobile full attacks.

Laniius

2012-01-01, 04:34 PM

Mechanically: nothing.

Gaming: You tend not to have access to your mount when traveling in mountains, swamps, and dungeons; thus, you lose access to invested feats and class features for a long period of real world and game world playing time by virtue of playing the game.

In a pathfinder game I'm currently playing in, the GM has made mounted combat viable again, even in odd areas, with a homebrew mount he made. They're still fragile, as they don't gain levels (unless a Paladin took one I suppose). They are the Elvensteed - giant spiders, basically. We just finished a dungeon that would have been near impossible without them; we had a boss battle on a sheer cliff face (the Elvensteeds have a spider-climb like ability that's always on, and constantly put down anchor lines to save them if they DO fall.)

navar100

2012-01-01, 06:53 PM

In a pathfinder game I'm currently playing in, the GM has made mounted combat viable again, even in odd areas, with a homebrew mount he made. They're still fragile, as they don't gain levels (unless a Paladin took one I suppose). They are the Elvensteed - giant spiders, basically. We just finished a dungeon that would have been near impossible without them; we had a boss battle on a sheer cliff face (the Elvensteeds have a spider-climb like ability that's always on, and constantly put down anchor lines to save them if they DO fall.)

The Cavalier in my group got real frustrated the umpteenth time he had to leave his horse behind, losing most of his combat prowess in the process. Together with me and the DM we rewrote the class a bit so that he didn't become "combat useless" when he can't fight on his mount. The Paladin player wisely chose the Bonded Weapon route.

sreservoir

2012-01-01, 07:03 PM

terrible ideas: use your local party frontliner as a mount. it's only a +5 to the ride check DC!

ericgrau

2012-01-01, 07:18 PM

A large mount can fit through a doorway sized for a medium creature, i.e. horses can fit through normal doorways. The only issues arise when you have a small opening that's a squeeze even for a medium creature, which is annoying when it happens but is quite uncommon.

A leadership cohort mount is fine for high level play, but not essential. Ditto for a figurine of wondrous power, a phantom steed and so forth. Since you can buy your mount semi-reasonable barding without spending too much, and since mounted combat lets you replace its AC (including touch AC I think) with your ride check once per round, it's about as good as anything else for a round. Fights tend to be decided in 2 or 3 rounds, so that's not too shabby. And if it does die, oh well, horses are cheap. If you want to take it a step further, you don't even need the mounted combat feat. All it takes is a DC 5 ride check to fire a bow as you move and full attack every round. There's little reason not to at least tack some minimal mount consideration on whatever build you go with. Then depending on what locations your campaign takes you you might invest in it further.

A gish especially might grab phantom steed as an afterthought if you take practiced spellcaster or some way to get an ok caster level.

herrhauptmann

2012-01-01, 07:47 PM

Fun for chargers, but useless for mounted archery, since the only advantage of the latter is mobile full attacks.

Still useful. Don't have to waste money trying to equip your mount AND yourself. Also, don't have to worry about losing the mount and waiting a year and a day (or whatever) to claim a new one.
But, the LA/RHD can be a real pain if you choose poorly.

Urpriest

2012-01-01, 08:02 PM

Still useful. Don't have to waste money trying to equip your mount AND yourself. Also, don't have to worry about losing the mount and waiting a year and a day (or whatever) to claim a new one.
But, the LA/RHD can be a real pain if you choose poorly.

But again, there is literally no reason to be a mounted archer in that situation as opposed to just an archer. Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery offer literally no benefit to such a character.

herrhauptmann

2012-01-01, 08:08 PM

But again, there is literally no reason to be a mounted archer in that situation as opposed to just an archer. Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery offer literally no benefit to such a character.

Only reason is that you want to play a Mongol warrior raining arrowy death down on the chinese by the thousands.
But that's not supported in game. (Like you said)

edit:
Fortunately, doesn't look like the OP wants to make a mounted archer gish.
Just an archer gish.

lord pringle

2012-01-01, 08:24 PM

If you want to make an archer gish (very nice for the Savage Tide) I recommend a cleric archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961).

hex0

2012-01-01, 08:49 PM

I'll throw out Zhentarim Skymage. You're welcome.

Somewhat on topic: has anyone used a Cheetah mount? Seems to be a boon for a mounted archer!

herrhauptmann

2012-01-01, 08:55 PM

I'll throw out Zhentarim Skymage. You're welcome.

Somewhat on topic: has anyone used a Cheetah mount? Seems to be a boon for a mounted archer!

It does need a bit of editing though. And it's based on intimidate right? But a lot of the class features are better for wizards than sorcerers.

hex0

2012-01-01, 09:08 PM

It does need a bit of editing though. And it's based on intimidate right? But a lot of the class features are better for wizards than sorcerers.

Free scrolls are free scrolls though. It appeals to both wizards and sorcerers which is interesting.

herrhauptmann

2012-01-02, 10:27 PM

Free scrolls are free scrolls though. It appeals to both wizards and sorcerers which is interesting.
One free scroll every few levels is ok, but you don't gain much as a sorcerer. Not like a wizard who can opt to put that spell in his book and thus keep it forevermore.

But again, there is literally no reason to be a mounted archer in that situation as opposed to just an archer. Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery offer literally no benefit to such a character.
Found a PrC that might help the mounted archer idea. Not too useful for archer gishes though.
Mounted Bowman from dragon mag 325, pg 80
Unfortunately, prereqs seem to suck a little, and class features are split to include the weapon spec line of feats(for the composite shortbow specifically), and things that are supposed to make you better at melee from horseback.

Fax Celestis

2012-01-02, 10:35 PM

One free scroll every few levels is ok, but you don't gain much as a sorcerer.

No, only free metamagic and a crazy mount. That's not much at all.

herrhauptmann

2012-01-02, 11:05 PM

No, only free metamagic and a crazy mount. That's not much at all.

inorite!
Terrible!

gorfnab

2012-01-03, 05:37 AM

If you're looking for an archer gish I usually recommend: Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar or Sacred Exorcist 3

For a mounted archer the basic Supermount sort of works if you tweak out your bow.

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track (prereq for Devoted Tracker)
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery (prereq for Halfling Outrider)
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

At 20th level, thanks to Devoted Tracker, your Supermount's abilities are that of an 18th level Paladin Mount and an 18th level Druid Animal Companion combined.
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

If flaws are available take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at first level.