Thought Experiment- 1st Level Tank?

[NeoSeraphi]

Hey, so I was wondering about this the other day...what is the absolute highest hit points you could get at level one? Assume all official WotC sources are available, max hit points from your first level class, and you can use any LA 0 race and template, with two flaws available, and 32 PB. You can even worship the Elder Evils for the 5 free feats or whatever.

(I know a dragonwrought kobold barbarian with 16 Con and Epic Toughness twice would have 75 hit points, but I'm wondering how high you can get without Epic feats)

[Incanur]

For a functional 1st-level tank, play a crusader. For the hypothetical, a dwarf barbarian with Dauntless and Toughness gets you to 25hp.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Artic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Barbarian with starting 18 con and toughness 3 times (with flaws and if we can take tougness more than once)?

IIRC we get 26 con from race and templates so a +8 modifier + 12 class +9 feats +2 rage around 31 HP at level one.

[SowZ]

Hey, so I was wondering about this the other day...what is the absolute highest hit points you could get at level one? Assume all official WotC sources are available, max hit points from your first level class, and you can use any LA 0 race and template, with two flaws available, and 32 PB.

(I know a dragonwrought kobold barbarian with 16 Con and Epic Toughness twice would have 75 hit points, but I'm wondering how high you can get without Epic feats)

Yeah, you shouldn't be taking epic feats at level one for a legal build.

[Wyntonian]

Well, it might be possible to put up some long-duration temp HP through the Vigor psionic power (not the spell). Dunno how long that lasts, and you'd need a friend to help, but it's worth considering. Also, how does a Crusader's delayed damage pool compare to a barb's higher hit dice and rage at first level?

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, you shouldn't be taking epic feats at level one for a legal build.

Well, it is RAW legal, since dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, and therefore qualify for epic feats regardless of hit dice.


Well, it might be possible to put up some long-duration temp HP through the Vigor psionic power (not the spell). Dunno how long that lasts, and you'd need a friend to help, but it's worth considering. Also, how does a Crusader's delayed damage pool compare to a barb's higher hit dice and rage at first level?

True, vigor abuse would be nice, but...if you're just by yourself it can only get you 5 hit points, since they don't stack and your ML is only 1.

The crusader's delayed damage pool doesn't compare to rage at all. It's the crusader's first level maneuver that lets him heal 1d6+1 hit points with a successful attack that makes him a tank.

[sonofzeal]

(I know a dragonwrought kobold barbarian with 16 Con and Epic Toughness twice would have 75 hit points, but I'm wondering how high you can get without Epic feats)
Going Generic Warrior rather than Barbarian gets you another Epic Feat, which nets you more short-term. Pretty sure it works out to 101.

[Incanur]

Artic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Barbarian with starting 18 con and toughness 3 times (with flaws and if we can take tougness more than once)?

Where's the Artic template from? Good call on Dragonborn.

[NeoSeraphi]

Going Generic Warrior rather than Barbarian gets you another Epic Feat, which nets you more short-term. Pretty sure it works out to 101.

:smalltongue: Somehow, I knew at least one person was going to ignore the OP and try to outdo my posted build...

Alright, here we go then. Half-Minotaur jungle kobold generic warrior 1- Feats: Dragonwrought (1st), Epic Toughness (B), Epic Toughness (F), Epic Toughness (F).

Hit Points: 10 (warrior) + 6 (22 Constitution) + 90 (feats) = 106

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC some Dragon magazine, same issue as Magic Blooded I think.

[SowZ]

Add the slow trait for an additional hit point. Arctic is from Dragon 306 along with other location templates.

[Amphetryon]

Can we worship Elder Evils for more feats? There's an old build from 339, probably lost to the white screen by now, that got close to (or surpassed) 100 HP at 1st level. Obese Dragonborn Arctic Mongrelfolk something or other.

[NeoSeraphi]

Can we worship Elder Evils for more feats? There's an old build from 339, probably lost to the white screen by now, that got close to (or surpassed) 100 HP at 1st level. Obese Dragonborn Arctic Mongrelfolk something or other.

Sure, I'll add that to the OP

[Greenish]

True, vigor abuse would be nice, but...if you're just by yourself it can only get you 5 hit points, since they don't stack and your ML is only 1.Picking Overchannel and Talented would allow you to boost ML to 2.

From pure HP view, though, Toughness twice is better.


Elan Ardent (or other psionic class, but ardent's d8 is highest you'll get for a full manifester) with Elan Resilience feat could negate 4 damage for 1 PP, with a pool of 3-4 PP.


Also, Pun-Pun.

[dextercorvia]

I asked this a while back. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159054) The best we got was 31, although no one came up with the arctic template.

If I were spitballing, today, I'd run an Arctic Human Crusader with the Slow Trait, Dauntless, and Toughnessx3. Combined with the delayed damage pool, Crusader's Strike, and the Martial Spirit Stance, you can take quite a beating.

It would take 12+5+1+5+9+5 = 37 points of damage in one round, to drop him to 0. He would be able to heal some of that just by attacking.

Another route, not HP optimization, but Tanking, is a Slow Elan Psion. 18 Con, 18 Int, Psionic Talent x4 gives 20 PP on top of your 9HP, which means you can take 49 points of damage before dropping.

Edit: I forgot about Elan Resilience, so scratch that last Psionic Talent for that, which is 15PP with 9HP, for 69 points of damage. The problem is that immediate action activation.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, it'll negate those really lucky shots. It won't take care of being shot to death by thousands of arrows or dismembered twice in a turn, but if that high-level Rogue (that you're inexplicably being assaulted by at 1st level) gets lucky and catches all 6's on his fistful o' D6's, you might live through it.

[JackRackham]

Well, it'll negate those really lucky shots. It won't take care of being shot to death by thousands of arrows or dismembered twice in a turn, but if that high-level Rogue (that you're inexplicably being assaulted by at 1st level) gets lucky and catches all 6's on his fistful o' D6's, you might live through it.
Yeah. combine that with DR, though, and you've got a neat trick.