[3.5] *sigh* Paladin vs Wizard. He started it

[Rankar]

*sigh again* Hello Playground. My friend (who lives in another state) made the declaration that his paladin could beat any of my wizards. I kept telling myself to leave it alone, but he issued a challenge and I accepted.

32 point buy. Level 15. Standard wealth. ALL DnD 3.5 books available and any prestige class you can qualify for.

I ask for help in ideas for building a wizard to decimate a paladin. I've read Logic Ninja's guide and Treantmonk's and almost every other guide there is but would just like to hear suggestions and ways to make this hurt to a silly extent. I'm fine with taking it to utter cheese.

Things I know he'll try to buy: a means to teleport and a means to fly.

Please don't make this into a debate about the classes. Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Prepare Ironguard (Spell Compendium). Gives you 15 rounds of "neener neener" in that anything made of metal can't touch you.

Hit him with no-save touch AC effects (Orb line, generally).

[Zale]

Win Initiative.

Dimensional Anchor to kill his teleport, then Forcecage to restrain him.

Then apply whatever blowy-up spells that give saveless ac-less damage until he dies.

[Circle of Life]

Okay.

Incantatrix or Spelldancer. Whatever. Persist as many buffs as you feel are necessary. You can literally achieve godmode here, as in, immune to everything.

Kill him with Magic Missiles. All of them.

[Bovine Colonel]

I'd try Incantatrix. Get the full ten levels. Apply every metamagic reducer you can think of to a Searing Spell'd Orb of Fire.

I recommend Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic.

[Ithandor]

Win Initiative.

Dimensional Anchor to kill his teleport, then Forcecage to restrain him.

Then apply whatever blowy-up spells that give saveless ac-less damage until he dies.

Seconded ^

Initiative - at 15th you can cast Moment of Prescience... get Imp Initiative, Hummingbird familiar, Nerveskitter etc. Many tools to do this can be found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0). You should easily be able to beat him.

Once you do, Dimensional Anchor and Forcecage using a Belt of Battle or Celerity. Greater Mirror Image should be enough to protect against whatever ranged abilities he's packing, I'd guess.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Prepare Ironguard (Spell Compendium). Gives you 15 rounds of "neener neener" in that anything made of metal can't touch you.

Hit him with no-save touch AC effects (Orb line, generally).

Use Displacement as well.

Edit: Unless he uses the Mageslayer line.

[Circle of Life]

Greater Mirror Image should be enough to protect against whatever ranged abilities he's packing, I'd guess.

Who cares about what kind of abilities he's packing at all, honestly? With just the Wizard spell list you can make yourself immune to physical, elemental, and ability damage with like six spells. Not to mention the dozen or so other defensive buffs you can put up, just in case he tries any mind-affecting business or, you know, whatever. And they'll all be persisted. So really, who cares?

If you're going to give him a funeral, at least let him put on his own show.

[Zale]

Who knows? Maybe the Goddess of One to a Million Chances will smile down upon the Paladin, allowing him to win survive the first turn.

[Flickerdart]

Contingent Celerity, Chained Greater Dispel. Quickened Shatter.

[Zaq]

How many buff rounds are you allowed to have? Are all-day buffs assumed to be up, or do you have to cast those after the whistle blows?

[RedWarrior0]

Disintigrate the floor under him, then Antimagic field on him. Or plane shift him to, say, Baator or the Abyss. Or Save or Dies out the wazoo. Or see if Beholder mage counts as wizard, qualify, and use 9th level spells to taste. Oh, and I forgot about the scroll of Disjunction that you can use.

[Incanur]

Who's DMing this duel? That makes a huge difference. Particularly at higher levels, various tricks depend on adjudication.

[Helldog]

*sigh again* Hello Playground. My friend (who lives in another state) made the declaration that his paladin could beat any of my wizards. I kept telling myself to leave it alone, but he issued a challenge and I accepted.

32 point buy. Level 15. Standard wealth. ALL DnD 3.5 books available and any prestige class you can qualify for.

I ask for help in ideas for building a wizard to decimate a paladin. I've read Logic Ninja's guide and Treantmonk's and almost every other guide there is but would just like to hear suggestions and ways to make this hurt to a silly extent. I'm fine with taking it to utter cheese.

Things I know he'll try to buy: a means to teleport and a means to fly.

Please don't make this into a debate about the classes. Thanks!:smallbiggrin:
If you're asking us for help, it won't really be "your Wizard", don't you think? I'd call that cheating.

[Octopus Jack]

Make your Wizard lawful good, load up on protection spells. Make no aggressive actions until he starts attacking you. Let him fall for attacking a non-hostile, non-criminal, good bystander...Then kill him. :smallwink:

[Incanur]

Make your Wizard lawful good, load up on protection spells. Make no aggressive actions until he starts attacking you. Let him fall for attacking a non-hostile, non-criminal, good bystander...Then kill him. :smallwink:

Then he rolls in with a paladin of slaughter who also happened to take the full mage slayer line. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Then he rolls in with a paladin of slaughter who also happened to take the full mage slayer line. :smallwink:
Good thing you were an Astral Projection created by your bound Nightmare. Otherwise, things could've gotten ugly, potentially, maybe, possibly a little.

[SowZ]

If you're asking us for help, it won't really be "your Wizard", don't you think? I'd call that cheating.

Agreed. So far, you've been given some advice on pretty common tactics. A little questionable, but whatever. He claimed he could beat one of your wizards. Maybe he can. But he won't be able to beat the playgrounds wizard.

[OverdrivePrime]

Honestly, is anything needed beyond a straight-up Wizard 15 here? :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

Honestly, is anything needed beyond a straight-up Wizard 15 here? :smallconfused:Better safe than sorry.

[Zale]

Honestly, is anything needed beyond a straight-up Wizard 15 here? :smallconfused:

That may be a better idea, so the other player can't say the prestige classes were what allowed the OP to win..

[Coidzor]

Especially not the one with a level One Million Monk encased forever in a block of ice-like-substancefrozen in carbonite, alive and aware but unable to act, trapped for all eternity, in his study.

Wait, was that a level one million monk or just a level one thousand one?

Eh, doesn't matter, tactic is the same.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Be Neutral Neutral.

The Paladin player now has no means of smiting you, no matter which variant he chooses.

Not that it matters, since Smite Evil is kinda pathetic anyway.

Anticipate Teleportation is a good 24-hour prebuff that allows you to delay someone from teleporting in for one round. When he teleports in, you are made aware that you need to ready an action to cast Forcecage (or Dimensional Anchor) upon his arrival, and let a contingency to be activated upon arrival cast the other. (Celerity also works for this.) On his initiative, you will have trapped him in an impenetrable cage on this plane of existence before he got so much as a swift action.

Then, Sonic Snap him to death.

Just for good measure, do so while riding a Phantom Steed. At level 15, it'll put his special Mount to shame.

EDIT: For this, it helps to be a Conjurer, so you get Abrupt Jaunt to make an immediate action 10-foot step in case he tries to teleport right into melee range, for whatever reason.

[Greenish]

Especially not the one with a level One Million Monk encased forever in a block of ice-like-substancefrozen in carbonite, alive and aware but unable to act, trapped for all eternity, in his study.

Wait, was that a level one million monk or just a level one thousand one?

Eh, doesn't matter, tactic is the same.I'm pretty sure a level 1000 monk could smash any non-epic, non-pun-pun wizard under the heel of it's WBL.

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure a level 1000 monk could smash any non-epic, non-pun-pun wizard under the heel of it's WBL.

Ok, ok, so I didn't mention the whole thing, but you really need to read through that thread if you missed it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I concur with going Wizard 15. You don't need Incantatrix to do Orb stuff; it just helps. If you have Arcane Thesis, an invisible searing twinned orb of fire is a 7th level slot. Remember, Quickened True Strike is only a 5th level spell slot. Greater Anticipate Teleportation is your friend.

Alternatively, if you do go incantatrix, you could drive the point home by gishing it up and beating him at his own game. Persist spells like Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, Superior Invisibility, (ocular) Ironguard, Bite of the Werebear, etc.

[Curious]

I'm pretty sure a level 1000 monk could smash any non-epic, non-pun-pun wizard under the heel of it's WBL.

Rules of the thread were that the monk had 20th level WBL.

EDIT: Also, like Coidzor said, the actual level of the monk was irrelevant to the combos being discussed in that thread. He could have been level 1 trillion and it still would have worked the same.

[Tvtyrant]

Play as a shadowcaster/Shadowcrafter. This will let you make 140% real illusions from any slot. Then summon grapplers to hold him while you sit back and blast.

[Greenish]

Rules of the thread were that the monk had 20th level WBL.

EDIT: Also, like Coidzor said, the actual level of the monk was irrelevant to the combos being discussed in that thread. He could have been level 1 trillion and it still would have worked the same.Can you toss me the link? I'd have thought The Cube, for example, could cause a wizard some trouble.

[Coidzor]

Can you toss me the link? I'd have thought The Cube, for example, could cause a wizard some trouble.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218989) should be it, or one very much like it, sorry.

[Curious]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218989) should be it, or one very much like it, sorry.

Yeah, there was a newer one, but I can't find it right now.

[dextercorvia]

I concur with going Wizard 15. You don't need Incantatrix to do Orb stuff; it just helps. If you have Arcane Thesis, an invisible searing twinned orb of fire is a 7th level slot. Remember, Quickened True Strike is only a 5th level spell slot. Greater Anticipate Teleportation is your friend.

Alternatively, if you do go incantatrix, you could drive the point home by gishing it up and beating him at his own game. Persist spells like Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, Superior Invisibility, (ocular) Ironguard, Bite of the Werebear, etc.

6th actually. 4-1+0+3.

Greater Anticipate Teleport is like Time Stop that doesn't cost you an action.

[DonutBoy12321]

15th level? That means Non-casting Paladin of Slaughter 5/Ur-Priest 10 is entirely possible! He could have 9th level spells!

[Dazed&Confused]

15th level? That means Non-casting Paladin of Slaughter 5/Ur-Priest 10 is entirely possible! He could have 9th level spells!

Can he even meet the skill/saves requirements at 5th level as paladin?

[Howler Dagger]

If you get buff-time, Pun-Pun+Leadership~1468 pun-puns

[Greenish]

If you get buff-time, Pun-Pun+Leadership~1468 pun-punsBetter not to go there. After all, a paladin can pull Pun-Pun just the same as a wizard.

[Worira]

Better, arguably.

[ScionoftheVoid]

For an interesting take on the challenge, anyone have links to ways to cheese your caster level? If you want to keep to Core prestige classes, but otherwise Wizard, you could just use Red Wizard of Thay with a couple of assistants but I'm sure there's other ways (less easy, but less reliant on other people. Or less reliant on counting Dominate Person as a "long-term buff", assuming that kind of rule is being used, I suppose). Basically the idea is to tie your opponent up for a minute while you cast Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) with a caster level of twice his HD. Choose Hedged Prison. Enjoy your permanently Paladin-less life, no saving throw, SR probably irrelevant.

You could be less cheesy and just get a decent saving throw and caster level on it, along with enough measures to cast it. It just seems like such a fun spell, and I wonder why it isn't mentioned more.

If nothing else, have it as a simple backup build for funsies - to prove the feat of trouncing him is repeatable and doesn't rely on specific broken things.

[INoKnowNames]

I don't know all that much about the games just yet, being a newb and what not, but I do know a thing or two about how I would deal with someone challenging me. Some "hollier-than-thou" beat-stick thinks he can deal with a nerd who is capable of farting to alter the world as he sees fit (or at least depending on the flavor of beans in the magic burrito). There are two things I'd avoid doing myself:

First of all, assuming your characters know eachother, or would be set up to know eachother, I'd avoid transforming schenanigans. As much as it would be awesome to disable him, go Dragon, and have a Paladin Sandwich, the form that they are most comfortable with should be the form that defeats them. Even if you guys are doing 1 shot characters, I'd still stay in humanoid form. Although once he's dead enough to the point where you could make him sneeze and he'd bust a blood vessel and die, then you can do a FINISH-HIM. 'cause that would just be in good taste. Especially if you eat him. That's very good taste.

And second, and this one is applyable in either case: Minions are no good. People watching certainly is, definitely. But it just wouldn't be the same if you summoned stuff to help you smash him, even though you certainly could. Never quite the same for me in games when a mook kills me instead of a boss. I just prefer the loss better when it's the big bad that owns me. And in games in which I play the leader, like RTS' and such, I try to avoid minion kills and simply slaughter them dirrectly. It feels... respectful.

At least that's what I think, although what I think and what's right are probably two incredibly divergent things. Plenty of ways to kill him that seem to line up with these two ideals, although I don't think anyone's tried to convince you of otherwise. I probably missed you stating that you'd stick to "proper" tactics anyway, or at least got Ninja'ed by someone making similar suggestions...

[Randomguy]

If you don't have time to prebuff, start off with plain old invisibility and buff while he can't see you. Anticipate teleportation should be one of your first buffs. Know vulnerabilities is a good spell to cast. If you cast analyse dweomer and hit every magic item he has with it, then you know every single trick he has.

Dimmensional anchor should be a good starting point no matter what you do, possibly with quickened true strike first. If you want to be cruel, hit him with extended desert diversion (sandstorm) instead. He uses his teleportation item and gets stuck in the waste, no save. While he has to survive in the desert for a half hour, you can buff up all you want.
Then, if you want to curbstomp him, you use forcecage and then cloudkill. Repeat until he's dead.
If you don't want to win so quickly, stay invisible and summon monsters to kill him.
Freezing fog followed by breaking out a staff with vortex of teeth in it would be fun, albight inefficient. Prepare a few bullrushing spells to keep him out of the safe point or summon a monster that's hard to bullrush to stand there.

Greater ironguard + ghostform and then hit him with save or dies until he fails a save. Even if he's got awesome saves, if you cast quickened hold person and hold person once per round (maybe get a spellstaff that also has hold monster in case he plays a non humanoid race), statistically he'll roll a 1 by the 5th round and then you summon someone to coup de grace him. This also works if you have your familiar fly around invisibly holding one end of a ring gate for line of effect while you chill in a resilient sphere. It works with any save or die, but one that targets Will would be best. (Fire at Will!)

If you want to play hardball, pull out a scroll of disjunction. If you want to be really cruel, cast quickened dimensional anchor, use a scroll of time stop followed by a scroll of undermaster to bury him. Spend 5 gp on a gravestone, for laughs.

And all this without any questionable rule abuse, leadership or prestige classes! Although you should probably add on a prestige class anyway.

[Coidzor]

You could be less cheesy and just get a decent saving throw and caster level on it, along with enough measures to cast it. It just seems like such a fun spell, and I wonder why it isn't mentioned more.

Mostly the long casting time, I think. And most of them aren't something you'd do with a foe, since anyone who really wanted someone that had gotten binding cast upon them would be able to find such an individual and dispel it.

Much better to trap the soul and use it to craft a magical item. Or turn them into a statue then turn the statue into mud then make the mud into muddy water and then make the muddy water into pure water and proceed to spread it throughout the multiverse.

It is an interesting little spell though it seems to mostly replicate things that the DM would probably just do by fiat for obstacles to save a VIP of some sort at a lower level.

[tyckspoon]

Favorite spell for screwing with (relative) mundane characters: Maze. No save, ranged. Allows SR, but it's generally pretty hard for characters to acquire relevant SR. And once they're in it, the only way out is either a raw stat check against Intelligence (you know who's not famous for high Int? Melee characters in D&D) or plane-shifting magic.

My personal plan is usually to just Maze them, plop a Prismatic Wall in the space they'll come back to, and then sit down and catch up on your reading, but a high-level Paladin may actually have good enough saves to reasonably survive facechecking all seven layers of the wall. So you'd want to have some other plans on hand just in case; anything with a min/level or greater duration can get set up while you're waiting on him to return (the only major down side to this plan is that you can't predict when he'll get out of the Maze, so short term stuff is a bit chancy. On the upside, when he does show up you know you'll get the first action again, because making the check to escape takes up his full-round action from his turn.)

[Snowbluff]

15th level? That means Non-casting Paladin of Slaughter 5/Ur-Priest 10 is entirely possible! He could have 9th level spells!

A Wizard done right (or done so, so horribly wrong, depending on how you look at it) Could have 9ths, too.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

6th actually. 4-1+0+3.

Greater Anticipate Teleport is like Time Stop that doesn't cost you an action.Wow, I guess arithmetic isn't my strong suit, lol. Still, the point is that you can throw out some nice reliable damage in a low enough spell slot that you can repeat until dead if necessary.

[Hirax]

Point buy to 18/15/15 for your mental stats, and completely dump your physical stats. Become venerable even. Persist polymorph and your native physical stats are totally irrelevant.

Wizard5/incantatrix10
Otuygh hole: iron will
Flaw: Energy sub hot
Flaw: Energy sub cold
Human: piercing cold
1: Empower spell
3: Searing spell
6: snowcasting
9: arcane thesis: dragon breath
12: frozen magic
15: cold spell specialization
Inc1: Extend spell
Inc4: Persist spell
Inc7: Energy admix hot
Inc10: Energy admix cold

1. Cast control temperature to make things icy cold around you.
2. Use snowcasting to apply the cold descriptor to the dragon breath spell
3. Cast dragon breath in a 8th level slot by adding both energy admixtures to it (each is now +2 thanks to incanatrix10 and arcane thesis), meaning it now has the the fire descriptor in addition to the cold descriptor.
4. Because it now has the fire and cold descriptors, you can apply piercing cold and searing spell to it, for free thanks to arcane thesis. Empower is also free, and you should use a maximize rod to avoid adding to the spell level.
5. Optionally, use metamagic effect to persist dragon breath so you'll have it for 24 hours.

Damage calculation, one step at a time:
Step by step, let's go through the damage.
10d8 searing fire (base)
20d8 searing fire (admix1)
20d8 searing fire, 10d8 piercing cold (admix2)
160 searing fire, 80 piercing cold (maximize)
160+10d8 searing fire, 80+5d8 piercing cold (empower)
220+10d8 searing fire, 110+5d8 piercing cold (cold spell specialization, due to control temperature)

That's just about 400 damage on average, with 1d4 passing between each use. Reflex half, ignores cold and fire resistance, and cold/fire immunity only stops half the damage from the respective element. Even if they packed a ring of evasion, they'll roll a 1 eventually. Having the cold subtype eliminates the cold damage, but having the fire subtype does not eliminate the fire damage.

Persist a good suite of defensive buffs to complement that and you should be fine.

[Talentless]

Alternatively, you could just use one of the many, many, MANY ways to break WBL across your knee as a Wizard. Buy a scroll of Gate. Gate in a Solar. Win the game.

[Mystic Muse]

Whatever you do, don't have it be something he can just turn around and say "That wasn't because you were a wizard, it was because you X" or similar. Don't beat him with WBL, and try to avoid beating him with scrolls at all. The best way to prove this would be to beat him with nothing but you and your spells.

If you can manage it, don't spend any money on anything. Do nothing except use what you naturally get as a wizard. Just take a straight Wizard 15, no specializing, and no variants. Leave absolutely no room for him to say it wasn't because of your class, it was something else. This should shut him up, and leave no room for argument.

Also, it's debatable whether Moment of Prescience applies to initiative, so it'd be best to find some other way of going first.

[Tvtyrant]

For a Paladin you could actually do this as simply as No-save-just-dies.

Reverse Gravity (Pallies cannot fly), Force Cage (cannot teleport), Mage's Magnificent Mansion (walk inside, buff yourself, walk out and kill), Maze and then buff, etc. You can wreck a none-caster just within core and they cannot say anything about it.

[Zaq]

For a Paladin you could actually do this as simply as No-save-just-dies.

Reverse Gravity (Pallies cannot fly), Force Cage (cannot teleport), Mage's Magnificent Mansion (walk inside, buff yourself, walk out and kill), Maze and then buff, etc. You can wreck a none-caster just within core and they cannot say anything about it.

Admittedly, he very well may have a flying mount just with his class features alone. That's hardly unreasonable.

[Tvtyrant]

Admittedly, he very well may have a flying mount just with his class features alone. That's hardly unreasonable.

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that you can slap a force cage on him, then Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill him. Stinking Cloud keeps him from using items to get out, and cloudkill...Kills.

[Mystic Muse]

Actually, I'd avoid cloudkill. It's not that expensive to get poison immunity, and if the Paladin knows anything about wizards (He likely doesn't, but why take the risk?) he'll get an iridescent Ioun stone and become immune to effects that require him to breathe. There's likely also ways to become immune to poison, which cloudkill explicitly is.

EDIT: At the very least, don't rely on it. I wouldn't rely on anything that can be countered by not having to breathe, being immune to poison, evasion, or anything that can be countered by freedom of movement.

[Tvtyrant]

I do not disagree that any one option could fail, but every response to one of the options I gave would take the same action as casting the spell. Just keep trying until the Paladin loses. Force Cage, then if they escape Maze, if they do not keep throwing clouds into the cage until the Pally dies. If you use Maze then kill the mount and cast Greater Invisibility on yourself. When the Pally gets out the Reverse Gravity, Waves of Exhaustion, etc.

Eventually you will prevail over the Paladin's defenses and break it to it's knees.

[Killer Angel]

Agreed. So far, you've been given some advice on pretty common tactics. A little questionable, but whatever. He claimed he could beat one of your wizards. Maybe he can. But he won't be able to beat the playgrounds wizard.

So true...
it's more funny helping the underdog: the OP could tell his friend to ask for the playground's help. :smallamused:

[Rankar]

I have shown him the site and tried to show him various things about how the game can be played. He asked a few other friends for advice, so I asked the playground after I found out (I was gonna do Shadowcraft Mage initially). I figure if he can ask for advice, so can I. I just ask the right people.:belkar:

Honestly I'd root for him too. But its fun to be the villain every once in a while. But it'd be nice if I were ever a hero... *plots PF campaign while reviewing spells*

We won't have any rounds for self buffing since it'd favor me. Our characters won't know each other so he won't know what I can do and vice versa. We shall have a friend DM for us, but all rules will be agreed upon by the both of us.

To answer a few other questions/comments/concerns: I won't be abusing WBL so it'll be a Wizard that won instead of the item. Still debating on whether to go straight Wizard 15 w/out specializing or cheese it up.

I do appreciate the ideas. I haven't played DnD 3.5 in a few months and was as a DM then too. Haven't designed a character for a while so much as encounters.

[Vknight]

Help a Paladin! Never!
Also he may be taking Leadership, Paladins like there charisma can get leadership and abuse it like a sack of puppies.
Also I agree to everything said here.
But I'd personally like to break him the right way, stat drain. Drain his con to lower hp, drain strength so he cannot move, drain intelligence to make a good little lap dog, and wisdom to make him unaware. Then destroy him.

You can also be really sadistic by getting 'Preform: Mummification' or something else and begin the process well he is still alive

[Shadowleaf]

If I were the two of you, I'd outright ban Leadership/Diplomacy/cohorts/pre-summoned monsters. It's easy enough to win a fight as a Paladin if you have NI Solars backing you up or a Wizard cohort.

[Hirax]

If you want to go straight wizard, it's unlikely he's going to be able to beat dimensional lock and forcecage. He might be able to break one forcecage, but two is doubtful. Once you're sure he's stuck in a forcecage, searing spell+wall of magma is going to be a pretty safe method to kill. Use a maximize rod to be sure. The wall does damage to anyone that's close to it and lasts for minutes per level, so he's going to need to be able to survive for quite a long time. If you wish to speed the process up, simply cast it multiple times; your maximize rod is good for 3 uses, and an empower rod is good for another 3. Wall of magma does offer spell resistance, so add quickened true casting to it, just to be safe. Unless he's a forsaker, that will be plenty to get around whatever spell resistance he's going to be able to muster. If he IS a forsaker, well, then he's shot himself in both feet anyway, because forsakers won't be able to use any of the tools that are able to destroy a forcecage.

[Ithandor]

Who cares about what kind of abilities he's packing at all, honestly? With just the Wizard spell list you can make yourself immune to physical, elemental, and ability damage with like six spells. Not to mention the dozen or so other defensive buffs you can put up, just in case he tries any mind-affecting business or, you know, whatever. And they'll all be persisted. So really, who cares?

If you're going to give him a funeral, at least let him put on his own show.

100% agree, was just trying to make the point that you really don't have to go anywhere near as far as persistent spells to utterly dominate him.

[Andre]

I'd outright refuse giving tips to a wizard on how to defeat a paladin - unless, of course, your friend has set you up and intends to play a wizard whose name is 'Paladin'. :smallamused:

[Killer Angel]

We won't have any rounds for self buffing since it'd favor me.

Leaving aside that all day buffs should be considered active (does the paladin begin the combat wearing the armor? it's the same concept, after all) I hope it's also forbidden to teleport away in the first round, buff as needed and teleport back...

[Shadowleaf]

Leaving aside that all day buffs should be considered active (does the paladin begin the combat wearing the armor? it's the same concept, after all) I hope it's also forbidden to teleport away in the first round, buff as needed and teleport back...Why would that be forbidden? It's well within the Wizard's bag of tricks, RAW-legal, and well within reason?

[Hirax]

As long as moment of prescience is already active, that's all that really matters. Throw on a few more initiative boosters and then you're all set to use any one of the posted combos to lay waste to the paladin.

[Killer Angel]

Why would that be forbidden? It's well within the Wizard's bag of tricks, RAW-legal, and well within reason?

I read the "We won't have any rounds for self buffing" rule, as "no buffs at all already active", which strikes to me as a stupid thing. I can be wrong in my reading.

[Shadowleaf]

I read the "We won't have any rounds for self buffing" rule, as "no buffs at all already active", which strikes to me as a stupid thing. I can be wrong in my reading.I don't see how that stops the Wizard from teleporting away during the first round of combat. He didn't have any buffs up at the start - a fact he has to change somehow. It's pretty much the lower level version of using Time Stop to buff yourself.

Edit: Not that it really matters. A Wizard won't need any non-daily buffs to beat the Paladin.

The only way I see the Paladin winning is through some sort of Anti-Magic Field cheese. If he insists you start within 10 ft of eachother, throw books at him until he comes to his senses.

[Gandariel]

i guess without any spell active on you (not even contingency)
starting 100 feet or so away he can charge and kill you in a turn,
or use something to teleport next to you and then activate an antimagic something...
the point is, of course, having all-day buffs is one of wizard's abilities just like having a weapon and an armor for the paladin..
Clarify that with him..

And if he doesn't want to.. you can just hope for a good Initiative roll. it can be boosted but not to the degree of being sure you'll win (without spells).
so win initiative, teleport (plus quickened anticipate teleportation)
buff yourself and go back
or if it isn't allowed... on your first turn get a Mirror image and a Forcecage,
then dimensional lock and... and then you've won basically..
next turn cast Repel Vermins, just to be sure

[motoko's ghost]

I dont care who started it, I'm finishing it!:smallmad:

I will not actually be finishing it, I just wanted to say that:smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that you can slap a force cage on him, then Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill him. Stinking Cloud keeps him from using items to get out, and cloudkill...Kills.I should've thought Anklets of Translocation are standard issue on any melee character beyond level 5 or so.

[undead hero]

make the battle a best of X battles (7 since I like hockey) and roll your spells randomly from the core list for each battle ;)

I'm sure you will still win 6 of them .... Ok 7 of them if you try. This should really shut him up

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some awesome paladin builds that can destroy things (paladin + vow of X + rhino mount + charging awesomeness) but past level 7-10 the Wizard has the upper hand

[Shadowleaf]

I should've thought Anklets of Translocation are standard issue on any melee character beyond level 5 or so.Which is why Dimensional Anchor is a standard issue spell on any Wizard beyond level 8. :smallbiggrin:

[Ksheep]

Just hit him a couple times with Shivering Touch. Better yet, have Retributive Shivering Touch, let him make the first move. If he attacks when you are not threatening, he could very easily lose his powers… and then Shivering Touch goes off, draining a fair chunk of his Dex.

EDIT: Mis-read Shivering Touch. Still, could go with the Shivering Touch route and just slap him a few times until he's frozen solid.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Arcane Thesis + Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) + Slaymate + Empowere + Split Ray + Enervation

Then do the same thing quickened

Then have your familiar do it. Twice.

You don't even need to bring Incantatrix into the mix. Just burn him down with negative levels.

Don't forget your Contingency Celerity upon an opponent getting within 15' of you.

[Snowbluff]

Arcane Thesis + Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) + Slaymate + Empowere + Split Ray + Enervation

Then do the same thing quickened

Then have your familiar do it. Twice.

You don't even need to bring Incantatrix into the mix. Just burn him down with negative levels.

Don't forget your Contingency Celerity upon an opponent getting within 15' of you.

It'd be even funnier of you did this as a Dread Necro, reducing your tier advantage and further humiliating him.

[Coidzor]

If I were the two of you, I'd outright ban Leadership/Diplomacy/cohorts/pre-summoned monsters. It's easy enough to win a fight as a Paladin if you have NI Solars backing you up or a Wizard cohort.

Eh? NI Solars from the Paladin vs. NI Solars from the Wizard just cancel one another out. So it's merely counter productive rather than a winning strategy for the Paladin.

[dextercorvia]

Deathward is on the Paladin list, so I wouldn't sink my whole build into anything that could be countered by that. Not saying that anyone was doing that... yet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Deathward is on the Paladin list, so I wouldn't sink my whole build into anything that could be countered by that. Not saying that anyone was doing that... yet.

Yanno, funny thing about Paladins and casting... their CL is equal to 1/2 their level. There's this cute little spell called Dispel Magic... you almost can't help but make the check.

[Coidzor]

So Paladin can probably have a CL of around 10 max with a feat.

[Shadowleaf]

Eh? NI Solars from the Paladin vs. NI Solars from the Wizard just cancel one another out. So it's merely counter productive rather than a winning strategy for the Paladin.But you're assuming both sides makes use of it. If the Paladin wins by having NI Solars while the Wizard felt like Leadership was too cheesy, you are not proving anything. That is why you should just out-right ban it.

Also applies for less cheesy examples: The Paladin having a Cleric cohort to buff him, for instance.

[The Endbringer Xaraphim]

Have your cohort/item familiar dispel his flight. Use a scroll of gate to open a portal to somewhere fun over top of him. Sudden quickened reverse gravity him then make an IRL will save to not look smug.

[The Endbringer Xaraphim]

Edit: I accidentally double posted. How do you delete posts, by the way?

[Socratov]

don't forget iounstones... *whistles*

[Shadowleaf]

Edit: I accidentally double posted. How do you delete posts, by the way?
Button over your post when you edit.

[Tvtyrant]

I should've thought Anklets of Translocation are standard issue on any melee character beyond level 5 or so.

I actually did address this in a later post. The Anklets take a standard action to use, so you are under no threat of being attacked on the turn they escape and can use an alternate form of imprisonment (maze). You could always go Maze first, kill the mount and buff yourself before the Paladin gets out.

[Circle of Life]

I actually did address this in a later post. The Anklets take a standard action to use, so you are under no threat of being attacked on the turn they escape and can use an alternate form of imprisonment (maze). You could always go Maze first, kill the mount and buff yourself before the Paladin gets out.

Anklets are actually a swift action activation. You might be thinking about the shirt in the MIC that lets you teleport further as a standard action (Lightning... Vest... maybe? Something like that.)

Not that it should really matter, but hey.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

don't forget iounstones... *whistles*

Stone, singular. Stacking issues with bonuses from the same source not stacking...

besides, he doesn't have the budget for having enough. Or, at least, if he does sink his cash into a bunch of ioun stones, you could pretty much limit yourself to using a crossbow while flying, because he won't have any other gear.

[RedWarrior0]

Buy two scrolls of disjunction. Disjoin him. Then, for the hell of it, disjoin yourself. Then humiliate him.

[blazingshadow]

use the ACF that trades a bonus feat with a domain power to get the deathbound domain power and animate a few zombies with standard paladin gear. they probably will not kill him but it will make a point of showing the paladin's fate after the battle. you could also consider having a zombie dragon to entertain the paladin while you prepare his grave.

[Fiery Diamond]

I'd just like to point out that depending on the fight scenario, the wizard may be disallowed any buffing time. As in - "The two contestants start with all spells prepared standing thirty feet away from each other, with no preparation time allowed. Roll initiative." Many of the pre-battle buff stuff becomes less relevant that way.

[Helldog]

I'd just like to point out that depending on the fight scenario, the wizard may be disallowed any buffing time. As in - "The two contestants start with all spells prepared standing thirty feet away from each other, with no preparation time allowed. Roll initiative." Many of the pre-battle buff stuff becomes less relevant that way.
I see you've missed the OPs post where he's saying that there's no time for buffs in this duel.

[Shadowleaf]

I'd just like to point out that depending on the fight scenario, the wizard may be disallowed any buffing time. As in - "The two contestants start with all spells prepared standing thirty feet away from each other, with no preparation time allowed. Roll initiative." Many of the pre-battle buff stuff becomes less relevant that way.He won't have time to buff before battle, but it's a moot point since he has access to Celerity and Teleport. Even if he can't go to a Genesis'd plane to kick back and drink some mojitos, he can still chill out in outer space while he buffs himself.

[deuxhero]

Win Initiative.

Dimensional Anchor to kill his teleport, then Forcecage to restrain him.

Then apply whatever blowy-up spells that give saveless ac-less damage until he dies.

Don't forget Sudden Quicken to trap him in one round!

[Helldog]

He won't have time to buff before battle, but it's a moot point since he has access to Celerity and Teleport. Even if he can't go to a Genesis'd plane to kick back and drink some mojitos, he can still chill out in outer space while he buffs himself.
I would say that leaving the area designated as the duels arena equals defeat.

[Randomguy]

Make sure you optimise initiative, just in case you do start out within 5 feet of each other, since before you buff up, he can one hit kill you. Take the U.A. variant that lets you swap wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats, and take improved initiative. Also get a humingbird familiar and have nerveskitter prepared, which is about +12 to initiative. Enchant a quarterstaff so that one end is +1 eager.

Then start off by buying yourself some time to buff. This can be achieved in many ways: Teleport + quickened invisibility, etherealness + scroll of genesis + Binding a Nightmare + Astral projection or just Maze.

Get mindsight. Completely unblockable. Who needs ranks in spot?

And for stats, you only really need int (duh), con and dex. Dump the rest, except maybe wisdom (for a monk's belt).

[Shadowleaf]

Hot damn my post went haywire. Let me try that again.


I would say that leaving the area designated as the duels arena equals defeat.
Seeing as the no-buff-time ruling blatantly favours the Paladin already, not being able to leave the area is just taking more and more of the Wizard's tricks away. It's one thing not to have buff time (which on paper can be argued to be balanced between the two characters), but having a Wizard not allowed to use a series of his spells as intended? Doesn't seem very fair when the Paladin doesn't lose anything in regards to possibilities.


And for stats, you only really need int (duh), con and dex. Dump the rest, except maybe wisdom (for a monk's belt).

And for stats, you only really need int (duh), con and dex. Dump the rest, except maybe wisdom (for a monk's belt).[/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, the Wizard only really needs int and only 18 of it to almost be guaranteed to win. The rest is just icing on the cake.

[gkathellar]

Someone get this man an early-entry trick for Mindbender!

Season with IotSV, Halruuan Elder and Incantatrix to taste.

[Helldog]

Seeing as the no-buff-time ruling blatantly favours the Paladin already, not being able to leave the area is just taking more and more of the Wizard's tricks away. It's one thing not to have buff time (which on paper can be argued to be balanced between the two characters), but having a Wizard not allowed to use a series of his spells as intended? Doesn't seem very fair when the Paladin doesn't lose anything in regards to possibilities.
Seeing as the Wizard has already an advantage by simply being a Wizard, you should accept some handicaps. It's no accomplishment to defeat a Paladin with a Wizard. Not to mention that the OP is cheating by getting professional help with his build.

[Siosilvar]

Seeing as the no-buff-time ruling blatantly favours the Paladin already, not being able to leave the area is just taking more and more of the Wizard's tricks away. It's one thing not to have buff time (which on paper can be argued to be balanced between the two characters), but having a Wizard not allowed to use a series of his spells as intended? Doesn't seem very fair when the Paladin doesn't lose anything in regards to possibilities.

Even if teleporting away counts as a defeat, dimension door has a 1000-foot range at 15th level. The paladin's run speed, depending on his armor, is between 60 and 120 feet. Accounting for +20ft of move speed enhancers and a 30ft teleport a round, that's still 4 rounds of buff time before he's within charge range.

[Shadowleaf]

Even if teleporting away counts as a defeat, dimension door has a 1000-foot range at 15th level. The paladin's run speed, depending on his armor, is between 60 and 120 feet. Accounting for +20ft of move speed enhancers and a 30ft teleport a round, that's still 4 rounds of buff time before he's within charge range.That's assuming:
- The designated duel area is over 1000 feet.
- The Paladin doesn't have Dimension Door with a whack CL.
- The Paladin isn't chilling on top of an extremely fast (possibly flying )mount.
- The Paladin doesn't have any sort of ranged attacks or spells.

And why would the Paladin wear armor? :smallconfused:

[gkathellar]

getting professional help with his build.

Do you need a license to go pro, or submit an application, or what? :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

Someone get this man an early-entry trick for Mindbender!

Season with IotSV, Halruuan Elder and Incantatrix to taste.

Social Proficiency Enchanter with Spellgifted and Reserves of Strength can take Mindbender at level 2.

[Flickerdart]

Do you need a license to go pro, or submit an application, or what? :smallbiggrin:
You can just print out a certificate. Like being a bounty hunter, the entire field is completely unregulated.

[Shadowleaf]

Social Proficiency Enchanter with Spellgifted and Reserves of Strength can take Mindbender at level 2.Will you be serving wine with that cheddar, good sir?


I strongly advise against using some of the more abuseable prestige classes. I'm looking at you, Incantrix.. And Mindbender.. And Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.. And Ha- screw it, go straight Wizard and beat him anyway. Then he won't complain about your 'OP prestige class' (but 'OP base class' instead!)

[Helldog]

The Wizard can always summon something fierce to stall the Paladin. Not defeat him, but stop for some rounds.
BTW. Why should the Wiz even buff himself if there are better ways to smack the Paladin? :smallconfused: In case that the Pal somehow menages to come close, or something?


Do you need a license to go pro, or submit an application, or what?
Hehe. That's funny. Not.

If the Pal will have only Pal levels, the Wizard should also have only Wizard levels. If the Pal multiclasses, there's no reason the Wiz shouldn't.

[Shadowleaf]

The Wizard can always summon something fierce to stall the Paladin. Not defeat him, but stop for some rounds.
BTW. Why should the Wiz even buff himself if there are better ways to smack the Paladin? :smallconfused: In case that the Pal somehow menages to come close, or something?I'd also advice against summoning: It's supposed to be the Wizard who wins the duel, not whatever he can Gate in.

The buffs are mainly a precaution, should the Paladin have some serious cheese in store (which is entirely reasonable). If the Wizard is relying on going first through his Contingency spell and the Paladin has a Contingency of his own for instance.


If the Pal will have only Pal levels, the Wizard should also have only Wizard levels. If the Pal multiclasses, there's no reason the Wiz shouldn't.Well true, other than the fact the Wizard doesn't really need to.

[Urpriest]

I'd just like to point out that depending on the fight scenario, the wizard may be disallowed any buffing time. As in - "The two contestants start with all spells prepared standing thirty feet away from each other, with no preparation time allowed. Roll initiative." Many of the pre-battle buff stuff becomes less relevant that way.

Yes, but then the Paladin won't have his armor on, his weapon drawn (or even sheathed), or his warhorse summoned either.

[Shadowleaf]

Yes, but then the Paladin won't have his armor on, his weapon drawn (or even sheathed), or his warhorse summoned either.I think not having his weapons sheathed is pushing the analogy a bit. That would be like the Wizard not having his spells ready.

[SowZ]

All day buff spells should be allowed since the wizard always casts them in the morning. Even if ambushed or teleported to a battle without warning they should be on if you are trying to make a legit battle between the characters.

[gkathellar]

Social Proficiency Enchanter with Spellgifted and Reserves of Strength can take Mindbender at level 2.

Not too bad. A one-feat investment, and I'd actually never noticed Spellgifted before. That's a pretty cool trait, and easy enough to cancel out the negative effects of.

[Hirax]

Reserves of strength is a pretty good feat too, so the only real cost is specializing in enchantment.

[dextercorvia]

Not too bad. A one-feat investment, and I'd actually never noticed Spellgifted before. That's a pretty cool trait, and easy enough to cancel out the negative effects of.


Reserves of strength is a pretty good feat too, so the only real cost is specializing in enchantment.

You have to take Iron Will for Reserves of Strength. I didn't mention it because it wasn't really pertinent -- if it wasn't so early, you could just go to the Frog God's Fane, but that isn't exactly in 1st level WBL.

You can also do it as a Dream Dwarf with one of the fancy holy symbols from Complete Champion, and another +1CL feat, like Spell Thematics -- there are tons of ways to get the CL at that level, the difficult part is getting all of the skills as a Wizard (without spending a bunch of feats).

[gkathellar]

You have to take Iron Will for Reserves of Strength. I didn't mention it because it wasn't really pertinent -- if it wasn't so early, you could just go to the Frog God's Fane, but that isn't exactly in 1st level WBL.

You can also do it as a Dream Dwarf with one of the fancy holy symbols from Complete Champion, and another +1CL feat, like Spell Thematics -- there are tons of ways to get the CL at that level, the difficult part is getting all of the skills as a Wizard (without spending a bunch of feats).

Actually, is there a list of +CL tricks? I'm familiar with some, but not many that can be done at level 1.

[Hirax]

Y'know, given how late in 3.5 Complete Scoundrel was, I bet the author had been burned by iron will as a requirement one too many times, and decided he was going to sneak in a cheap shot way to get it. :smallbiggrin:

[Curious]

Actually, is there a list of +CL tricks? I'm familiar with some, but not many that can be done at level 1.

Best one is to be a Witch with the Coven hex. As long as you can find more witches with the coven hex as well, you can get your CL arbitrarily high, even at level 1.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Seeing as the Wizard has already an advantage by simply being a Wizard, you should accept some handicaps. It's no accomplishment to defeat a Paladin with a Wizard.

"Even footing" is an advantage for the paladin. Seriously, it should be logical that the wizard would have all day buffs, mainly Overland Flight (this is realistically, I'm not taking into account that the paladin can fly), and Contingent Dimension Door or Contingent Stoneskin.


Not to mention that the OP is cheating by getting professional help with his build.

You mean we're getting paid for this?

[Icewraith]

Are we considering the psychology of a player who says "I can beat any wizard you make with a paladin?"

Perhaps this isn't a complete idiot, but something far more dangerous, someone with only a little knowledge - someone who has second or third - hand information? Someone, for example, who has heard of Pun-Pun before?

What methods does a level 15 wizard have to stop a potential Pun-Pun guaranteed in one round?

I'm pretty sure that limits your round one tactics to "scroll of disjunction quickened widened silence," destroying any magical items present and resulting in "Pazu... ......... ........... ...? ...?"

Granted with the "no buffing" clause this is an unlikely strategy since it takes time to implement, but it's a thought.

[Helldog]

You mean we're getting paid for this?
You mean you DON'T? :smalleek:

[Shadowleaf]

Are we considering the psychology of a player who says "I can beat any wizard you make with a paladin?"

Perhaps this isn't a complete idiot, but something far more dangerous, someone with only a little knowledge - someone who has second or third - hand information? Someone, for example, who has heard of Pun-Pun before?

What methods does a level 15 wizard have to stop a potential Pun-Pun guaranteed in one round?A stack of heavy-hitting books closeby.


You mean you DON'T? :smalleek:

I was contemplating making that exact joke with that exact wording.

Freaky.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Are we considering the psychology of a player who says "I can beat any wizard you make with a paladin?"

Perhaps this isn't a complete idiot, but something far more dangerous, someone with only a little knowledge - someone who has second or third - hand information? Someone, for example, who has heard of Pun-Pun before?

What methods does a level 15 wizard have to stop a potential Pun-Pun guaranteed in one round?

1) Pun-Pun is cheating, and if that's the case, the contest is null and void to The Playground.

2) If it's Pun-Pun why is it level 15, instead of level 12?

3) Wouldn't it have been mentioned if this was a fallen paladin?


You mean you DON'T? :smalleek:

So that's where my parents are getting my allowance money! Although only 25 dollars every two weeks seems a little low.

[Icewraith]

A stack of heavy-hitting books closeby.





Since that's the normal answer to Wizard cheese I'm not sure if that's a fair deterrent. You should have an in-game preventative just to have your bases covered.

Edit: I know the original was at level 12, but the "all books" clause just throws up a red flag for me combined with Paladin. Also, an ex-paladin still has levels of paladin even if they suck. Maybe that's what he's going to try pulling?

"Lol I beat your best 15th level wizard character with a level 12 ex-paladin!"

Never mind that it's stupid, the whole point of that is it's an "infinite" and therefore to the uninitiated "unbeatable" combo, the sort of thing that someone who's only heard of pun-pun might bring up to take down a wizard.

[Rankar]

In battle, whatever you are willing to do is acceptable. My rules are different form your rules. I learned how to optimize reading these forums over the last few years and have slowly learned a lot of tricks but don't get the play time to really get into it very often and retain it. Relying on a resource I am willing to take advantage of ought not be viewed as cheating. He sought help from friends, I seek help from the playground's vast arsenal of knowledge. I asked people who have more experience than the people he asked.

I'm probably going to go with Conjurer w/ abrupt jaunt, orbs, clouds, and possibly summoning a few things if the battle goes on that long. If he wins initiative and teleports at me, I can teleport out of his range. This of course is assuming he's using a melee build (which he primarily enjoys and plays but I'll try to prepare for a ranged opponent as well).

Have quickened Dimensional Anchor prepared as my first spell. After that, the game is really just down to how I want to kill him. Whether through Cloudkill (in PF Paladins are immune to poisons so I couldn't recall if they were in 3.5), Orb of Fire maximized quickened etc, or Polymorph into a dragon and eat him.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
I'd like to ask how you would craft a Paladin to fight a wizard (I do not play Paladins (long story) so I couldn't help him build one if I tried). I'm a fan of not holding a grudge against people so after a thorough trouncing, I'd like to show him how he could have defeated me or why he truly had no chance whatsoever.

Once more, thanks for the help.

[SowZ]

In battle, whatever you are willing to do is acceptable. My rules are different form your rules. I learned how to optimize reading these forums over the last few years and have slowly learned a lot of tricks but don't get the play time to really get into it very often and retain it. Relying on a resource I am willing to take advantage of ought not be viewed as cheating. He sought help from friends, I seek help from the playground's vast arsenal of knowledge. I asked people who have more experience than the people he asked.

I'm probably going to go with Conjurer w/ abrupt jaunt, orbs, clouds, and possibly summoning a few things if the battle goes on that long. If he wins initiative and teleports at me, I can teleport out of his range. This of course is assuming he's using a melee build (which he primarily enjoys and plays but I'll try to prepare for a ranged opponent as well).

Have quickened Dimensional Anchor prepared as my first spell. After that, the game is really just down to how I want to kill him. Whether through Cloudkill (in PF Paladins are immune to poisons so I couldn't recall if they were in 3.5), Orb of Fire maximized quickened etc, or Polymorph into a dragon and eat him.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
I'd like to ask how you would craft a Paladin to fight a wizard (I do not play Paladins (long story) so I couldn't help him build one if I tried). I'm a fan of not holding a grudge against people so after a thorough trouncing, I'd like to show him how he could have defeated me or why he truly had no chance whatsoever.

Once more, thanks for the help.

For the Paladin? I'd say magic items are more important than class as far as win conditions.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, is there a list of +CL tricks? I'm familiar with some, but not many that can be done at level 1.

This is a pretty good list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level), but I'm not sure if it is comprehensive.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So can all-day buffs be already used or is it that he somehow caught you just as you were waking up?

As for the paladin...
Flight: Paladin Mount, griffon or pegasus
Miss chance and spell armor bonuses: Mageslayer line (highly against this, as it tanks your caster level by 4 for each)
Just general: Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, and Serenity

[Shadowleaf]

For the Paladin? I'd say magic items are more important than class as far as win conditions.Seconded. The Paladin only stands a chance if he is either winning through his items or the Wizard thinks Fireball is the most broken spell in D&D.

[Rankar]

So can all-day buffs be already used or is it that he somehow caught you just as you were waking up?

I figure if he has his armor on, I'll have a few all day buffs on. But I'll throw the question at the DM.

[Flickerdart]

Even if he's caught waking up, he'll have a few buffs on - everything that was hours/level that he cast the previous day using Extend will still be active for another six hours.

[Endarire]

Anti-Caster Thread 2 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0) has ideas.

[Randomguy]

I still say desert diversion is better than dimensional anchor, since it gives you prep time, but it's your choice really. Make sure to prepare whichever you choose twice, in case he rolls a natural 20 on a dispel check. Also, it might be smart to start with quickened true strike then normal dimensional anchor, just in case he pumped up his AC.

The best paladin build against wizards would probably be one that gets into urpriest as soon as possible. The second best paladin build against wizards may well be the gold standard sorcadin. After that could be a DMM persist cleric with a 2 level dip in paladin. Then a favoured soul with a 2 level dip in paladin.

A good (but not perfect) mundane anti wizard build with paladin in it would probably be evil. One possiblity is: Hexblade 4 (Dark companion ACF)/Paladin of Tyranny 1/ Witch Slayer 5/Paladin 3/Blackguard 3/Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 1/ Occult Slayer 1.
Race is Silverbrow human, with an ACF for paladin that swaps heavy armour proficiency with a draconic Husk, so he can wear armour while counting as unarmoured. The alternatives are warforged or human. This part doesn't actually do much for wizard slaying, but makes him stronger against melee characters.

This one gets three times charisma to saves (or twice to saves once to AC if you find that ACF, I think it's called serenity), Wisdom to AC when unarmoured, Con to AC when unarmoured, Mettle and Evasion. This means that if any spell allows a saving throw, the character is unaffected, even if it would normally have a partial effect on a failed save. The AC bonuses mean that the wizard probably can't hit you without using true strike first.

Dark companion + Aura of despair twice means that the wizard's got a -6 penalty to saves and -2 to AC when near the character (at least until he dispels the dark companion), which is great for momentary disjunction and stunning fist. The mage slayer line is probably worth it, since your casting would suck anyway, and wisdom isn't that important to you. You've also got full BAB and the Decisve Strike monk ACF, which means you do double damage with a quarterstaff and with your snap kick.

The result: You kill most blaster wizards, and are great at low levels, but a well optimized wizard at higher levels can still take you down with gate, shapechange or by burying you.

[Coidzor]

The best paladin build against wizards would probably be one that gets into urpriest as soon as possible. The second best paladin build against wizards may well be the gold standard sorcadin. After that could be a DMM persist cleric with a 2 level dip in paladin. Then a favoured soul with a 2 level dip in paladin.

Those aren't Paladin builds and would forfeit automatically by virtue of violating the spirit of the engagement.

[Killer Angel]

Seeing as the Wizard has already an advantage by simply being a Wizard, you should accept some handicaps. It's no accomplishment to defeat a Paladin with a Wizard.

Yes, this kind of arena fight, should be balanced nerfing the higher tier class, but the challenge was issued by a player saying "my pally will beat your wizard". This sound as a challenge based on equal starting conditions.
Otherwise, I could say "my CW samurai will beat your incantatrix, assuming a sufficient amount of nerfs to your wizard".
At this point, the merit goes to the nerfs, not to the CW samurai. :smallamused:



Not to mention that the OP is cheating by getting professional help with his build.

That's another matter, and I agree.

[Helldog]

I'm not saying "Nerf yourself into oblivion". Just give the opponent some reasonable advantages so he won't say that the rules were set in the Wizards favor. Really, does a decently optimized Wizard need every edge he can get? I don't think so.

[Killer Angel]

I'm not saying "Nerf yourself into oblivion". Just give the opponent some reasonable advantages so he won't say that the rules were set in the Wizards favor. Really, does a decently optimized Wizard need every edge he can get? I don't think so.

I agree with the concept, but this alone undermines the declaration of the pally's player. We know the paladin can't win without some advantages, but the problem lies in the starting PoV.
Case 1: "Let's do a duel: my pally Vs your wiz., let's try to design a scenario which is balanced for the duel". AKA: let's give the pally some advantages to compensate. This, I'm fine with.
Case 2 (case in point): "Let's do a duel. My pally is so strong, that it will beat any of your wizard". This declaration, shouldn't include advantages in the starting conditions.
So, if the paladin starts with its armor on, I don't see why the wizard shouldn't have already active those spells with daily or weekly duration.

[tyckspoon]

What methods does a level 15 wizard have to stop a potential Pun-Pun guaranteed in one round?

I'm pretty sure that limits your round one tactics to "scroll of disjunction quickened widened silence," destroying any magical items present and resulting in "Pazu... ......... ........... ...? ...?"

Granted with the "no buffing" clause this is an unlikely strategy since it takes time to implement, but it's a thought.

If he's crazy enough to actually try to initiate the Pun-Pun sequence mid fight? The only thing you really have to worry about there is if the favor he asks from Pazuzu happens to be "oh mighty demon please smite this wizard." In which case he has a: wasted his easy chance at ascending and b: given the wizard the rather fair complaint that you sicced a freaking deific being on him, in which case (Scroll of) Gate -> All The Titans seems like a fair response for the rematch. If he really did try to do it mid-fight, well, the Pun-Pun ascension sequence requires probably about a minute's worth of actions before you actually have Manipulate Form and can grant yourself the power to do whatever the heck you want. Any half-way decent (or even completely terrible) Wizard should be capable of disrupting that before he gets to the required point. ('Say, that's a nice Candle of Invocation you have there.' *Disintegrate Sunder* 'Was a nice Candle.')

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno... just to humiliate your opponent, here's a concept:

Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile. Empower Spell, Maximize spell, quicken spell, fell drain. Flavor other metamagic feats to taste.

If he's immune to the negative level from Fell drain, you know not to bother with Empowered Enervation. However, you're doing flat guaranteed damage to him every round. Heck, you can even use Etherealness to be immune to your opponent while doing so, since force effects cross that particular planar border.

He got killed. By a magic missile. No PrC's, no Incantatrix, no toys. You just... magic missile spam him down. Can it get more humiliating than that?

If he's not immune to the level drain from the fell drain, then spam him hard with enervation instead. Make sure to have a Slaymate on hand for it.


('Say, that's a nice Candle of Invocation you have there.' *Disintegrate Sunder* 'Was a nice Candle.')

I believe the meme goes: Sssssay, that'ssss a nissssse Candle you got there...

[tyckspoon]

If he's immune to the negative level from Fell drain, you know not to bother with Empowered Enervation. However, you're doing flat guaranteed damage to him every round. Heck, you can even use Etherealness to be immune to your opponent while doing so, since force effects cross that particular planar border.


They actually only go one way, from Material to Ethereal. Sending effects the other way- doing things to the Material from the Ethereal- is one of the rarest things in D&D that I can think of.

Still, I kinda like the Magic Missile idea..how about:
Winning With Style (If Only You Could See It:)
Step 1: Cast Superior Invisibility. (Spell Compendium, level 8. About the only things that can detect you are the psionic Touchsight power, the Mindsight feat, and True Seeing. True Seeing is the only one you would really have to worry about, and AFAIK it's both very expensive on items and not available as a constant effect.. so if the Paladin whips out a Gem of Seeing or spends an action to activate a Scout's Headband or what-have-you just dispel that sucker and carry on.)
Step 2: Invisible Magic Missile.
Step 2a: Quickened Invisible Magic Missile.

So. Yeah. An invisible foe stings him to death with invisible darts of magic force. Eventually he keels over dead, without ever apparently having been actually attacked (depending on how you imagine Magic Missiles to hit.)

[Flickerdart]

Make sure to prepare whichever you choose twice, in case he rolls a natural 20 on a dispel check.

Mraap! A roll of 20 on a dispel check isn't an auto-success.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They actually only go one way, from Material to Ethereal. Sending effects the other way- doing things to the Material from the Ethereal- is one of the rarest things in D&D that I can think of. Transdimentional spell, then.


Still, I kinda like the Magic Missile idea..how about:
Winning With Style (If Only You Could See It:)
Step 1: Cast Superior Invisibility. (Spell Compendium, level 8. About the only things that can detect you are the psionic Touchsight power, the Mindsight feat, and True Seeing. True Seeing is the only one you would really have to worry about, and AFAIK it's both very expensive on items and not available as a constant effect.. so if the Paladin whips out a Gem of Seeing or spends an action to activate a Scout's Headband or what-have-you just dispel that sucker and carry on.)
Step 2: Invisible Magic Missile.
Step 2a: Quickened Invisible Magic Missile.

So. Yeah. An invisible foe stings him to death with invisible darts of magic force. Eventually he keels over dead, without ever apparently having been actually attacked (depending on how you imagine Magic Missiles to hit.)

Arcane thesis and you can stack more metamagic on it than that, but I like the idea.

This might also be the perfect time and place for Argent Savant... Force Missile Mage being Dragon Mag content and of dubious legality for the purposes of this challenge.

[Helldog]

Mraap! A roll of 20 on a dispel check isn't an auto-success.
But a 20 makes the dispelling much more likely to succeed, no?

[Flickerdart]

But a 20 makes the dispelling much more likely to succeed, no?
A standard Paladin 15 would have a CL of 7, meaning a maximum dispel check of 27, against the Wizard's 25. Using practically any CL booster (such as UMDing a Bead of Karma, or Circle Magic) with your buffs means that even a natural 20 isn't enough.

[dextercorvia]

Transdimentional spell, then.


Still only Material to X, rather than X to Material.

[Siosilvar]

Still only Material to X, rather than X to Material.

Well, it's actually X to Ethereal, Shadow, and extradimensional spaces. On the Ethereal and Shadow, it's X to the other and extradimensional. On any other plane, it's X to extradimensional.

You're right, though, it doesn't let you affect the Material with anything.

[dextercorvia]

Well, it's actually X to Ethereal, Shadow, and extradimensional spaces. On the Ethereal and Shadow, it's X to the other and extradimensional. On any other plane, it's X to extradimensional.

You're right, though, it doesn't let you affect the Material with anything.

True words. Thanks for the clarification.

[pwykersotz]

Just be sure that you have contingencies in case you lose initiative.

Celerity is all well and good cheese, but if we're assuming a similarly optimized paladin, he's packing Celerity too. The feat Sword of the Arcane Order will allow him to cast a level 4 Wizard spell and easily allow him to interrupt your interrupt.

Something that grants Damage Reduction would be good, basically, something that allows you to make your Concentration check after taking damage. After all, he could pull just about any trick.

Beware of fear effects, he can instill them with the right build. Fearless is a great feat for a lot of campaigns. Also beware of Dominate Person if he's a Paladin of Tyranny. Basically, a Cowl of Warding or a Third Eye Conceal or the like, since you won't have buffing time.

Also beware the mount. Depending on what he has, if he can wrangle the summon time, you now have another damage dealer to keep in check. Shouldn't be an issue though, you'll both be too busy.

Also, beware of stuns. Sudden Stunning is an enhancement that I've seen a lot of Paladin's run around with, possibly inspired by WoW. And since it's based on Charisma, it can pound you.

In short, Google the Paladin Handbook, look at the nastiest tricks they have, and build against them. If you do and he ends up being a Player's Handbook Paladin with some nice magic items, you're golden. If not, you at least have the upper hand.

[Phaederkiel]

what i would do:

a) play a naked old man (perhaps with a loincloth of battle, if you cannot resist...Just so he knows you are going to play a fair game...


b) have a backbiter ready (somewhere in the SpC, i think). If he has a weapon with a wooden shaft, you have the golden opportunity to inflict the most unheroic end ever to him...

[Randomguy]

Remember to put up moment of persience as soon as you can, to auto-make any save.

Don't polymorph into a dragon and eat him. Shapechange into gibbering orb and blast him with enough rays to wipe him off the face of the earth. If he's melee, don't get into melee. Unless you're very highly buffed, he'll rip you to shreds.

After you trap him try and finish him off as soon as you can: He might have a magic item or something that could hurt you while he's trapped.

A ring of enduring arcana makes it impossible for him to dispel your stuff, I think, unless he's also got caster level boosting.

Backbitter is a decent spell though, if you didn't ban necromancy.

[Coidzor]

Seeing as the Wizard has already an advantage by simply being a Wizard, you should accept some handicaps. It's no accomplishment to defeat a Paladin with a Wizard. Not to mention that the OP is cheating by getting professional help with his build.

Eh? Money is changing hands here? :smallconfused:

Darn. Should've been more active. :smallannoyed:

[Jack_Simth]

You know what would be really hillarious?

Extrordinary Spell Aim + Make Manifest, Mass, plus Ethereal Jaunt.

Round 1: Ethereal Jaunt to the Ethereal Plane, Quickened See Invisibility.
Round 2: Make Manifest, Mass, using Extraordinary Spell Aim to leave yourself out of it, and pulling him to the Ethereal. Quickened Dispel Magic on yourself, to get rid of Ethereal Jaunt.
Round 3+: Pelt him with Force effects until he keels over.

Basically, as long as he doesn't one-round you, you're fine.

[Wyntonian]

You know what would be really hillarious?

Extrordinary Spell Aim + Make Manifest, Mass, plus Ethereal Jaunt.

Round 1: Ethereal Jaunt to the Ethereal Plane, Quickened See Invisibility.
Round 2: Make Manifest, Mass, using Extraordinary Spell Aim to leave yourself out of it, and pulling him to the Ethereal. Quickened Dispel Magic on yourself, to get rid of Ethereal Jaunt.
Round 3+: Pelt him with Force effects until he keels over.

Basically, as long as he doesn't one-round you, you're fine.

Ohh... That's devious. I like it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know what would be really hillarious?

Extrordinary Spell Aim + Make Manifest, Mass, plus Ethereal Jaunt.

Round 1: Ethereal Jaunt to the Ethereal Plane, Quickened See Invisibility.
Round 2: Make Manifest, Mass, using Extraordinary Spell Aim to leave yourself out of it, and pulling him to the Ethereal. Quickened Dispel Magic on yourself, to get rid of Ethereal Jaunt.
Round 3+: Pelt him with Force effects until he keels over.

Basically, as long as he doesn't one-round you, you're fine.

In other words, pulling HIM into the Ethereal plane and abusing the fact that while several things can hit Ethereal from the Material, vice versa is a lot harder, and not within the capabilities of a paladin.

I like it.

There's also something to be said for being cruel and unusual, using Black Tentacles and then poking him to death with a stick...

[Circle of Life]

In other words, pulling HIM into the Ethereal plane and abusing the fact that while several things can hit Ethereal from the Material, vice versa is a lot harder, and not within the capabilities of a paladin.

I like it.

There's also something to be said for being cruel and unusual, using Black Tentacles and then poking him to death with a stick...

Combine the two! Buy an Ethereal Reaver (CPsi I believe), Black Tentacles/otherCC him, shift to the ethereal, then poke him to death with a sword across the planes.

[Rankar]

I'm going with Conjurer w/ Abrupt Jaunt banning enchantment and evocation.

The abrupt jaunt is my preventative measure if he wins initiative and has teleportation/whatever.

Quickened True Strike then Maximized Reach Shivering Touch.

Should that fail, another quickened true strike with dimensional anchor and just go to town. Orbs, cloudkill, polymorph, etc.

[Hirax]

If you can afford it, an amulet of second chances is another great item, it lets you completely redo your turn. Mantles of second chances are also nice, they're one of the few ways to be able to reroll non-d20 rolls. Both are in the Magic Item Compendium.

[absolmorph]

Why not just use a heightened (+3) Flesh to Salt, plus a couple iterations of Sudden Quicken, Sudden Maximize, and Shout.
Open with Flesh to Salt (maximizing the first two might be necessary); if it doesn't turn him to salt (and you haven't used Abrupt Jaunt, or you've got a Belt of Battle), follow it with a second one (using Sudden Quicken). If it still fails, repeat on your second turn.
Once he's salt, cast Prestidigitation and make a nice cup of tea. After you've finished your tea, use Shout. Now that he's a crystalline object, he takes 15d6 damage. He has 5 HP per inch of thickness. Unless he's incredibly thick, he should be taken out quite easily.
If you like the statue you made, you can just grab it and teleport back to your study with it; you might want to research a spell to turn it into stone, so water won't damage it. Alternatively, you can prepare a tank of water and submerge the statue.

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why not just use a heightened (+3) Flesh to Salt, plus a couple iterations of Sudden Quicken, Sudden Maximize, and Shout.
Open with Flesh to Salt (maximizing the first two might be necessary); if it doesn't turn him to salt (and you haven't used Abrupt Jaunt, or you've got a Belt of Battle), follow it with a second one (using Sudden Quicken). If it still fails, repeat on your second turn.
Once he's salt, cast Prestidigitation and make a nice cup of tea. After you've finished your tea, use Shout. Now that he's a crystalline object, he takes 15d6 damage. He has 5 HP per inch of thickness. Unless he's incredibly thick, he should be taken out quite easily.
If you like the statue you made, you can just grab it and teleport back to your study with it; you might want to research a spell to turn it into stone, so water won't damage it. Alternatively, you can prepare a tank of water and submerge the statue.

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.

Fort save is going to be pathetically easy for a Paladin who, in addition to having a high Fort save from his class, also gets his Charisma bonus to saves...

So, assuming a 28 Charisma (using same calculations you have, without the +2 racial and only a +4 enhancement), and an even halfway average Con score (let's call it 22), and a +5 Cloak of Resistance... he can't possibly fail the save.

It's a much better idea to spam things like Shivering Touch which don't offer a save.

[Venser]

Permanency+invisible,
power word: blind(to buy some time),
either some strong non save dmg dealing spell or disentigrate,
use wish to get power word kill,
kill him.

or

any spell that would lower his fort quite a bit, any spell at all
or
something that would raise your dc for lvl 6 spells sky high(like 50 or something)
wish(your next spell will be maximized)
disintegrate

or

summon monster VII(as much monsters as you can)
polymorph them into dragons

[Flickerdart]

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.
At 15th level a Paladin could easily have +24 or higher to his Fortitude save, meaning that this is a hilariously easy DC to make. Don't target his best save. Don't target any saves if you can help it.

[Siosilvar]

I'm going with Conjurer w/ Abrupt Jaunt banning enchantment and evocation.

The abrupt jaunt is my preventative measure if he wins initiative and has teleportation/whatever.

Quickened True Strike then Maximized Reach Shivering Touch.

Should that fail, another quickened true strike with dimensional anchor and just go to town. Orbs, cloudkill, polymorph, etc.

Note that you can't use an immediate action if you lose initiative, because you're still flat-footed. Also, an immediate action uses your swift action next round, so you can't quicken on the round after an Abrupt Jaunt.

[Rankar]

Note that you can't use an immediate action if you lose initiative, because you're still flat-footed. Also, an immediate action uses your swift action next round, so you can't quicken on the round after an Abrupt Jaunt.

This is another part of why I read these forums. I don't know all the rules perfectly. I actually looked that one up earlier today when I should have been studying (learning about motorcycle suspension with a 1980's cheesy video is boring btw). Thank you for the clarification. This shall prevent me from abusing the rules unintentionally.

[Matsci]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?608623-D-amp-D-3-5-Paladin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.

[legomaster00156]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?608623-D-amp-D-3-5-Paladin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.
The Wizard is getting help. The Paladin is getting help. All is fair, although if one of you guys really feel like lying and placing the blame on the other is necessary, this has already gone too far out of character, and you two need to have a serious talk about what is competitive and what is all in good fun. (Hint: D&D is all in good fun.)

[Incanur]

Celerity is all well and good cheese, but if we're assuming a similarly optimized paladin, he's packing Celerity too. The feat Sword of the Arcane Order will allow him to cast a level 4 Wizard spell and easily allow him to interrupt your interrupt.

This makes me wonder about the best route to go as a paladin: Sword of the Arcane Order or the Mage Slayer line? You can't effectively do both. SotAO increases the MADness, but that matters less at level 15 than it does at level 1.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This makes me wonder about the best route to go as a paladin: Sword of the Arcane Order or the Mage Slayer line? You can't effectively do booth. SotAO increases the MADness, but that matters less at level 15 than it does at level 1.

It doesn't matter. Mage Slayer doesn't only affect arcane casting.

[Jack_Simth]

Ohh... That's devious. I like it.Thank you.
In other words, pulling HIM into the Ethereal plane and abusing the fact that while several things can hit Ethereal from the Material, vice versa is a lot harder, and not within the capabilities of a paladin.
Exactly. Make Manifest has a save... but the Mass version, not so much, and while the example is yanking an Ethereal critter to the material... it's just an example, and the actual text just requires "a coexistant plane". One of the few ways to cause serious hurt to someone on the material. If you really want to be devious, stop and put a barred Forcecage over the area he's in before you cast Make Manifest, Mass. That way he can't walk out of the area of the spell easily... although he probably does have at least one counter for a wall of force like that.


I like it.

There's also something to be said for being cruel and unusual, using Black Tentacles and then poking him to death with a stick...
Note that Black Tentacles doesn't do anything if the target has Freedom of Movement, which is just a 40,000 gp ring... or better, the Cowl of Warding which, while costing just over 200,000 gp, also grants Mind Blank and a small amount of Spell Turning, both of which would be very useful for the Paladin against a 'generic' Wizard.

[undead hero]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?608623-D-amp-D-3-5-Paladin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.

I hope the creator of this thread and the person that created that thread is the same person XD hahaha

[Rankar]

*rummages through texts/facebook conversation*

Hmm... It looks as though there was poor communication going on between us. On both sides. Yeesh this is getting to the point of silly.

*reads through suggestions for the paladin*

*sigh* I feel that this whole thing needs reevaluated.

[Helldog]

Just drop it. It became stupid (or rather it was stupid from the start, but now it's official).

[Snowbluff]

Just drop it. It became stupid (or rather it was stupid from the start, but now it's official).

Agreed. A paladin should not be taken seriously even in the most dire of circumstances (in RP terms, these guys are hams), and it's obvious the only way he'd win in the first place would be by outcheesing you.

[Helldog]

If you two really want to test your optimization abilities, try something like a Same Game Test. Instead fighting each-other, fight a solo encounter. The encounter will be stated and run by a 3rd party (one of your friends or your DM). You both will fight the same encounter and whoever defeats the encounter faster is the winner.

[Flickerdart]

I love that thread. "But what if the Paladin takes Leadership and buys a Candle of Invocation and brings Solars, then the Paladin can win."

Once you start bring in minions, Greater Planar Binding + Nightmare means the Wizard cannot lose. GG.

[Rankar]

If you two really want to test your optimization abilities, try something like a Same Game Test. Instead fighting each-other, fight a solo encounter. The encounter will be stated and run by a 3rd party (one of your friends or your DM). You both will fight the same encounter and whoever defeats the encounter faster is the winner.

THIS. I like this idea. I'd probably ask for a few encounters just so it requires more variations rather than just "who wins initiative". *scribbles things to ask the DM*


I love that thread. "But what if the Paladin takes Leadership and buys a Candle of Invocation and brings Solars, then the Paladin can win."

Once you start bring in minions, Greater Planar Binding + Nightmare means the Wizard cannot lose. GG.

And this is why the contest needs reevaluated. I was trying to prevent over cheesing it (I asked for cheese because I enjoy hearing ideas. I wouldn't use it on something like this (Okay I would but only to see the look on someone's face when they hear "your empowered maximized twin spell does WHAT? AT LEVEL 1????")) but if summoning solars/leadership is getting brought in, it ruins the point of the duel/contest/whatever.

Again, I thank you guys for the aid in theorizing. And Undead Hero, I didn't write that thread but that does sound like something I'd do to entertain myself... *makes a few new email addresses so he can argue with himself*

[Elboxo]

Abrupt Jaunt Wizard into Incantatrix, give saves that don't offer saves, target his low stats, like Twin/Empowered 'Ray of Clumsiness' (SPC) at CL 15 equates to 1d6 + 5 Dex damage before metamagic, follow it up with a 'Spectral Hand'ed (SRD) 'Shivering Touch (It's cold outside).

You don't even have to get near him and you can reduce his Dex by about 9, absolute minimum. Before metamagic, your average Dex reduction is 1d6 (3) + 5 + 3d6 (9)= 17.

Add metamagic and enjoy.

Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty, and Shivering Touch is damage, so I think the two stack.

Of course you have Contigent Spell: Polymorph into Dire Tortoise, and the feat Natural Spell so you don't lose initiative, then you can target him with a no-save knockout spell while you set yourself up for the Dex destruction.

He brought this on himself, no reason to play fair, heck, after you bring his Dex to 1 you can walk around him and coup de grace him with your knuckles, then Dominate him and make a story about how he's such a faithful foot-massager for the rest of his life.

[The Glyphstone]

They're on to us:



I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Paladin over on the Giant In The Playground forums. As if he needs any help...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227463

Edit: Also, you should probably add your Charisma bonus to the counterspelling attempt. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Incanur]

It doesn't matter. Mage Slayer doesn't only affect arcane casting.

:smallconfused: How does that change the dynamic I mentioned? Either you go Mage Slayer and forget about spells, or you go Sword of the Arcane Order and maximize your spellcasting ability.

[legomaster00156]

Great. It's basically been extended from Player vs. Player to Forum vs. Forum, and both are watching the other. It's time to stop.

[Coidzor]

Great. It's basically been extended from Player vs. Player to Forum vs. Forum, and both are watching the other. It's time to stop.

Huh. Now that's surprising and disappointing. I wouldn't have expected any vitriol to come up against us from rpg.net. :smallconfused::smallfrown:

[The Glyphstone]

Huh. Now that's surprising and disappointing. I wouldn't have expected any vitriol to come up against us from rpg.net. :smallconfused::smallfrown:

There's not really any vitriol. It is getting uncomfortably meta, though.

[Coidzor]

There's not really any vitriol. It is getting uncomfortably meta, though.

Ahh, that's a relief. :smallsigh: I don't really want to go over there and look, especially now, but I also was rather distinctly uncomfortable with the implications of where things were going...x.x

[Elboxo]

I hope the creator of this thread and the person that created that thread is the same person XD hahaha

Amazing, someone suggested you be forced to start mounted with phantom steed to 'make concentration checks and waste a slot'.

level 15 phantom steed flies at like 300 feet/ round and spell concentration check to Move, Cast, then Move again, basically spring attack but with 300 foot flight speed, is DC 15 + spell level, IIRC.

Invisible spell: Phantom steed, to keep it alive, followup with my previous post about Dex destruction, and then toil with him with Invisible planar allies or summoned monsters.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I might just join RPG.net so that I can argue with Sacrificial Lamb over the matter of a paladin being capable of beating a highly-optimized wizard (while using tactics that may or may not cause the paladin to fall), Leadership being broken, the wizard using Leadership to negate the paladin's Leadership, the wizard using Astral Projection from his hiding place deep in the Beastlands (he can use a scroll, and I know that example was banned from the duel, but if Leadership is being brought into it...) to use Fireball on followers and Orb spells on the paladin and his cohort while completely safe, using Plane Shift if he somehow gets destroyed.

[Worira]

Feel free to bring up the point that if you bring allies, it's not actually a duel. It's kind of the definition.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, RAW Astral Projection only works while the body is on the Material Plane - though that doesn't stop you from hiding the body once you've projected, using your delicious wizard spells.

[Manateee]

This is just silly.

Anyway, I can't remember my rpg.net login, so can we just say if Leadership is allowed, this wizard takes it for a Circle Magic-using cohort to nullify the Leadership solution over that's being pushed over there?

[Icewraith]

So now I'm curious... who actually challenged the other to a duel?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feel free to bring up the point that if you bring allies, it's not actually a duel. It's kind of the definition.

He's thinking of it as a war. And he's thinking the paladin is using commando tactics.

[pwykersotz]

Heh, after reading both sides, I'm tempted to sign up to rpg.net and help the Paladin. Support the underdog and all that.

[Randomguy]

Arcane sight would make guerrilla tactics ineffective, since with it active you can see which one has the most magic items and buffs, and that would probably be the paladin in charge or possibly his cohort (but definitely not the followers).

And he can't UMD nystul's magic aura on all his items before hand unless the wizard can start with all his all day buffs.

[Icewraith]

For verisimilitude, you could chain a bunch of Nystul's Magic Auras onto some of your followers, so they appear to have the same magical bonuses the Paladin does. However, this isn't the most effective use of your gold, I'm mentioning this for the sake of thoroughness.

Greater Arcane Sight addresses this.

Even if you ban infinite wish/gate loops and candles of invocation the Paladin is still in trouble- he can be unambiguously be identified as the one guy with Mind Blank (unless you really want to pay for multiple castings of that, it can't be chained without an epic caster or an incantatrix with an item of spellcraft) running, unless you want him to be vulnerable to normal divinations in which case he's dead already- the hole will be blatantly obvious with detect thoughts, helm of telepathy, or similar even if he's using Nystul's Magic Aura to spoof Arcane Sight on his minions.

Celerity, time stop, all of the clouds/Maw of Chaos +sufficient timestops, Dimensional Lock, forcecageX2, one wish to negate wishes, done.

...What happens if you cast Maw of Chaos and then Dimensional Lock the area? Either the two spells don't affect each other or Dimensional Lock ends maw of chaos's effect?

[Worira]

Why is a 15th level wizard casting so many 9th-level spells?

[Icewraith]

Oh right, 15th level. Insert "scroll of" here if necessary.

Also, the real lynchpins of the combo- Forcecage is 7th, dimensional lock is 8th, celerity isn't in the SRD but can't be higher than 5th, scroll of timestop, all of the clouds are lower than 9th, Maw of Chaos was mainly for showing off because it's nasty.

So mainly the timestop scrolls are ninth. With that starting gold and since this thing is being built for one fight, you can probably buy enough to do it three or four times, plus a scroll of disjunction if he has some magical item I haven't thought of to get out of the combo the first time. Oh and you prepare celerity twice instead of once.

Even without timestop if we lower the cheesiness of this we also should take out leadership, celerity is enough to Forcecage him and force him to waste his turn doing something to get out of there and reveal what his plan for dealing with forcecage is- most likely you can disintegrate, shatter, dispel, or dimensional anchor/lock it, celerity again, forcecage again, take forcecage's duration to do whatever you need to win, and win.

[Vknight]

I just read the rpg.net advice.

Here is my conclusion.
They are being foolish with there ideas. All they are suggesting is charge and leadership abuse. A few spells for protection then followed up with fireballs or better yet a scroll of 'Apocalypse From the Sky'(Note: Not actually a good idea)
Nothing worth mentioning. They are wanting a war when he said right off the bat its a duel(A duel is between 2individuals, not armies).

So bad strategy to take down a Wizard.
Good strategy to take down a Sorcerer.

[Curious]

I just read the rpg.net advice.

Here is my conclusion.
They are fools, you could play a blaster and win. All they are suggesting is charge and leadership abuse. A few spells for protection then followed up with fireballs or better yet a scroll of 'Apocalypse From the Sky'(Note: Not actually a good idea)
Nothing worth mentioning. They are wanting a war when he said right off the bat its a duel(Do they not comprehend a duel is between 2individuals).

And the ones not suggesting that are saying to cheat so the Paladin falls.

I think it may be best if you do not openly insult another board, or disparage their intelligence. This thread is for the discussion of strategy (such as is needed), not promoting warfare between boards.

[gooddragon1]

PAO twice? You've probably got enough int to get a bonus 8th level slot from items and normal stat gain. PAO into something with ridiculous stat bonuses and do that again.

[Cirrylius]

Let him fall for attacking a non-hostile, non-criminal, good bystander...Then kill him. :smallwink:

I... This...

...you magnificent bastard. Outstanding.

[Vknight]

I think it may be best if you do not openly insult another board, or disparage their intelligence. This thread is for the discussion of strategy (such as is needed), not promoting warfare between boards.

I don't insult the boards intelligence but rather the level of intellect they are currently showing in that topic.
Just making that clear. There being fools they are not actually fools would be the best way to put it.
I'm going to edit my earlier post to make that clear.

[Coidzor]

This has already gotten bigger and more nasty than it already had to be, adding to it is probably not an advisable course of action.

[Xynphos]

Immobilize him, use raven familiar to drop swan boats on him :)

[Hirax]

If it's a leadership contest, the wizard is just going to win that too. Because then instead of merely being able to chain gate in solars, the wizard could have an apprentice/cohort that's also capable of chain gating solars for double the fun. If you want to bring in leadership and minionomancy, things get worse for the paladin very quickly.

[Rankar]

I agree with everyone that this has gotten silly. Just letting everyone know that. We're still gonna have this battle. Might try for next week (I've been preparing a PF campaign alongside making this character so my brain's been addled a bit (not to mention school)).

A few things have been amended by our DM. No minions in the arena with us. Beyond that: I haven't heard anything. So if this battle is between JUST a wizard and JUST a paladin (whether his mount'll be allowed I haven't had the chance to ask). I will be allowed to prepare a few (DM's approval) spells before the battle (daily buffs, etc) as well as 1 round right before we roll initiative.

Helldog, I did propose the idea of battling an encounter with the Paladin but he'd rather face me head on.

Icewraith, it was a bit of lousy boasting on both our parts that led to this. I made a comment that a wizard could beat a paladin and it escalated from there. I won't disclose more detail to keep the facepalming to a minimum.

He has also agreed we'll refrain from Gate/Candle of Invocation abuse. And no Pun-Pun for either of us.

NOW! Since that is out of the way, I'm gonna have to rebuild my character a bit just because I fear he's been given enough advice that my original build of "smite him quickly" won't work (stupid deathward). I've been given enough ideas that I'll just roll random on what style to go with... *rolls for which school of magic to specialize in* Huh. Well, this ought to be entertaining.

[Hirax]

When you say just wizard and just paladin, are prestige classes allowed for either of you?

[Rankar]

When you say just wizard and just paladin, are prestige classes allowed for either of you?

I'm still assuming yes.

[Helldog]

The thread title is a lie.

[Merellis]

So you started it? I think the wizard with the twisted tongue might be jealous of the honest paladin. :smallamused:

[absolmorph]

The thread title is a lie.
Er... What are you basing this on?

[SacrificialLamb]

Hi, guys! It is I, the Sacrificial Lamb. :smallsmile: Maybe I should reveal myself. I'm the guy that gave the Paladin advice over on the thread at rpgnet. It got a little heated, but I do believe the advice I provided was rock-solid. Now please proceed to hurling rotten tomatoes in my general direction... :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Er... What are you basing this on?

Well, it's come up that what measure is a Paladin is in question here, since there were apparently serious Ur-Priest suggestions made and there's a sort of he said she said we said thing going on about how this all actually started.

[SacrificialLamb]

If I might make a suggestion, I'd make both the Paladin and Wizard characters be single-classed characters, if only to prove what the classes are capable of...

[olentu]

Hi, guys! It is I, the Sacrificial Lamb. :smallsmile: Maybe I should reveal myself. I'm the guy that gave the Paladin advice over on the thread at rpgnet. It got a little heated, but I do believe the advice I provided was rock-solid. Now please proceed to hurling rotten tomatoes in my general direction... :smallamused:

Hmm was your advice the take leadership and have the wizard cohort defeat the other wizard while hoping the wizard does not also take leadership or bring any other minions as that is not the worst advice by a long shot. Well except for that whole duel thing and bringing in minions but you know people use duel in a less then strict way all the time so I don't count that as necessarily a problem when not specified.

[Shadowleaf]

Hmm was your advice the take leadership and have the wizard cohort defeat the other wizard while hoping the wizard does not also take leadership or bring any other minions as that is not the worst advice by a long shot. Well except for that whole duel thing and bringing in minions but you know people use duel in a less then strict way all the time so I don't count that as necessarily a problem when not specified.

But you're assuming both sides makes use of it. If the Paladin wins by having NI Solars while the Wizard felt like Leadership was too cheesy, you are not proving anything. That is why you should just out-right ban it.

Also applies for less cheesy examples: The Paladin having a Cleric cohort to buff him, for instance.
I totally called it.

[olentu]

I totally called it.

That you did. But I felt the need to reiterate for clarification as I do not know if he actually suggested that tactic or not. Leadership was mentioned with regards to the paladin advice given in the thread but not who gave such advice and he was rather hazy on just what advice he gave and I am not going to bother tossing fruit at someone just anytime they ask if I am feeling lazy and their reason is not sufficiently good.

[Helldog]

Er... What are you basing this on?
On the OPs post.

Icewraith, it was a bit of lousy boasting on both our parts that led to this. I made a comment that a wizard could beat a paladin and it escalated from there. I won't disclose more detail to keep the facepalming to a minimum.

[Randomguy]

If I might make a suggestion, I'd make both the Paladin and Wizard characters be single-classed characters, if only to prove what the classes are capable of...

That would just give the wizard more of an advantage. Wizard's best feature are their spells, and they don't need to prestige to improve that. Paladins stop getting class features after level 5, other than extra uses of smite evil which they could get more of from paladin-themed prestige classes, and remove disease one or two times per week. They've just got d10 HD and full BAB after that.

At the very least, make paladin themed prestige classes allowed for the paladin, like grey guard, pious templar and shadowbane inquisitioner.

[gkathellar]

That would just give the wizard more of an advantage. Wizard's best feature are their spells, and they don't need to prestige to improve that. Paladins stop getting class features after level 5, other than extra uses of smite evil ...

+1 to this. Caster optimization is often about making the right spell choices, the right feat choices to support those spell choices, and using your spells intelligently. Melee optimization is about X-TREME multiclassing. If you forbid PrCs and multiclassing, then you're dumping a bucket of water on either class — but the wizard is a goose, and the paladin is a sparrow. One of those birds doesn't much care about getting wet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's nothing about Death Ward that protects him from a few thousand damage. Mailman would still be the most humiliating bet. Also, he still hasn't shown himself to acknowledge that Freedom of Movement is going to be necessary, so lockdown + Magic Missiles might still be viable.

i'm particularly amused by Etherealness + Make Manifest to drag the Paladin into the Ethereal, then stand on the Material and plunk magic missiles at him until he falls down, being unable to affect the wizard from the Ethereal.

[Jack_Simth]

i'm particularly amused by Etherealness + Make Manifest to drag the Paladin into the Ethereal, then stand on the Material and plunk magic missiles at him until he falls down, being unable to affect the wizard from the Ethereal.
Yeah, I found it hilarious too. It's why I suggested it.

Of course, a properly built Paladin-5/Pious Templar-2/Divine Crusader-2/Church Inquisitor-1/Divine Oracle-2/Contemplative-3 would have four different 8th level spells to choose from... and that's just Paladin plus PrC's (which mostly make him into a lesser Cleric...).

[Helldog]

Of course, a properly built Paladin-5/Pious Templar-2/Divine Crusader-2/Church Inquisitor-1/Divine Oracle-2/Contemplative-3 would have four different 8th level spells to choose from...
One 8th level spell. The Divine Crusader chooses only one domain that grants him spells and he gets only one spell per spell level that way.

[gkathellar]

One 8th level spell. The Divine Crusader chooses only one domain that grants him spells and he gets only one spell per spell level that way.

Which is why Contemplative, Church Inquisitor and Divine Oracle are there. They add domains, increasing the Divine Crusader's spell list.

[Jack_Simth]

One 8th level spell. The Divine Crusader chooses only one domain that grants him spells and he gets only one spell per spell level that way.
As noted by gkathellar, hence the other PrC's. He'll have to choose one to actually prepare (and will need a hefty Wis mod to get it), but he does have four to choose from with that setup.

[Helldog]

Err... No. A Divine Crusader gets spells from only one domain. It is quite clearly stated that it's only one domain, not domains, so the bonus domains from PrCs don't matter.

[Jack_Simth]

Err... No. A Divine Crusader gets spells from only one domain. It is quite clearly stated that it's only one domain, not domains, so the bonus domains from PrCs don't matter.
You may wish to re-read the "Extra Domains" section in Complete Divine, on page 20. It explicitly says what happens when a non-Cleric gets domain access.

[gkathellar]

Ah, due to the specific wording of Divine Crusader spell preparation, Helldog is correct. You can only prepare spells of your chosen domain, so even if they're on your spell list from extra domains, no dice.

Wow that is stupid.

[Flickerdart]

NOW! Since that is out of the way, I'm gonna have to rebuild my character a bit just because I fear he's been given enough advice that my original build of "smite him quickly" won't work (stupid deathward). I've been given enough ideas that I'll just roll random on what style to go with... *rolls for which school of magic to specialize in* Huh. Well, this ought to be entertaining.
Death Ward? More like Greater Dispel Magic.

[Coidzor]

On the OPs post.

Meh, that's still ambiguous. You should instead highlight the bit where it's ambiguous in the first place rather than clear cut.


Hmm was your advice the take leadership and have the wizard cohort defeat the other wizard while hoping the wizard does not also take leadership or bring any other minions as that is not the worst advice by a long shot. Well except for that whole duel thing and bringing in minions but you know people use duel in a less then strict way all the time so I don't count that as necessarily a problem when not specified.

What are you talking about? :smallconfused: Leadership not being banned or dealt with in the rules of engagement is a problem in and of itself. That's the posterchild for the sort of things that have to be hashed out before hand for these sorts of pointless contests, and is pointless as a measure of how the classes measure up against one another, because you're using bleeding Leadership.


At the very least, make paladin themed prestige classes allowed for the paladin, like grey guard, pious templar and shadowbane inquisitioner.

That should be fine. As long as it isn't lol, I'm a Sorcadin or lol I'm a fallen Paladin Ur-Priest. :smallyuk:


Wow that is stupid.

Ayep.

[olentu]

What are you talking about? :smallconfused: Leadership not being banned or dealt with in the rules of engagement is a problem in and of itself. That's the posterchild for the sort of things that have to be hashed out before hand for these sorts of pointless contests, and is pointless as a measure of how the classes measure up against one another, because you're using bleeding Leadership.

Well was his advice to use leadership or not. I believe the challenge was stated to be "his paladin could beat any of my wizards" which makes it not a class versus class argument in the end but a player versus player build making ability contest. Similarly should the challenge have been similar and have come from the opposing person. Sure it shows nothing about the class but it is not like a duel would demonstrate much of anything important anyway except the relative abilities to make character builds of the contestants.

[Coidzor]

Well was his advice to use leadership or not. I believe the challenge was stated to be "his paladin could beat any of my wizards" which makes it not a class versus class argument in the end but a player versus player build making ability contest.

Using leadership doesn't prove anything about build making ability either, at least not for the primary character, because in this case it's not the paladin beating the wizard, it's the paladin's cohort.

I'm not quite sure how it is that you don't think that getting leadership off of the table or addressed in any way before the farce of a contest is a good idea. :smallconfused:


Similarly should the challenge have been similar and have come from the opposing person. Sure it shows nothing about the class but it is not like a duel would demonstrate much of anything important anyway except the relative abilities to make character builds of the contestants.

You seem to be missing the point as well, because this is very much a paladin vs. wizard thing, as far as has been transmitted by either party. It's not an either-or thing, after all, one could have both, and in this case it's weighted heavily towards the former with elements of the latter.

Further, a "win" using leadership against someone without it is as meaningless and hollow as a victory can get, and that kind of vapidness is not to be encouraged, which is why it has been stated several times to get that off of the table or on board with both sides so that they can see how pointless it becomes when the minions provided by leadership end up in a stalemate anyway.

[olentu]

Using leadership doesn't prove anything about build making ability either, at least not for the primary character, because in this case it's not the paladin beating the wizard, it's the paladin's cohort.

I'm not quite sure how it is that you don't think that getting leadership off of the table or addressed in any way before the farce of a contest is a good idea. :smallconfused:



You seem to be missing the point as well, because this is very much a paladin vs. wizard thing, as far as has been transmitted by either party. It's not an either-or thing, after all, one could have both, and in this case it's weighted heavily towards the former with elements of the latter.

Further, a "win" using leadership against someone without it is as meaningless and hollow as a victory can get, and that kind of vapidness is not to be encouraged, which is why it has been stated several times to get that off of the table or on board with both sides so that they can see how pointless it becomes when the minions provided by leadership end up in a stalemate anyway.

Oh come now a win by the paladin by any means is meaningless and hallow with regards to the wizard class versus the paladin class. All it means is that the wizard player forgot something (either rules or build) and the paladin player took advantage of that error on the wizard player's part.

But I suppose that if they consider this is decisive test I should be considerate and try not to change that. So ok, I agree completely, now that leadership has been removed from the game, along with all other minions apparently, the duel is once again a balanced test of wizard versus paladin and the victor is surely the better class.