Strength of Arm and Blade- Barbarian and Fighter Updates

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fighter is one of the poster-children for an underpowered class-- mechanically weak, boring to play, useless out of combat, and utterly lacking in unique features and abilities. I've never been entirely satisfied with other people's fixes-- even the good ones, like jiriku's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194834) (from which I have drawn a lot of inspiration), never seem to quite get things right flavor-wise, no matter how on-point they are with power and versatility.

Eventually, I decided that the problem with fighter fixes was the barbarian. Why? Because, as written, there's too much overlap. They're both bulky, mundane warriors. None of the things that distinguish them-- rage and bonus feats-- are extraordinarily good. And neither is huge at higher levels-- both classes will be running around in mithril plate, swinging greatswords and making charge attacks. Or, more likely, both will have jumped into prestige classes, as the base classes offer nothing on their own.

Soo... to fix the fighter, I must first alter the barbarian. My goal is for him to be more mobile, with lighter armor but more damage reduction, more focused on taking the hits than on avoiding them, and with a slight mage-slayer bent (a la Conan). And, of course, to be more interesting in combat and be less of a one-level dip. Behold!


The Barbarian

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.moviefone.com/media/2010/01/conan.jpg
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Hit Die: d12.
Class Skills: The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wisdom), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|DR|Speed Bonus
1st |+1 |+2 |+0 |+0 |Fast movement, rage 1/day||+10ft
2nd |+2 |+3 |+0 |+0 |Brute Power||
3rd |+3 |+3 |+1 |+1 |Mettle||
4th |+4 |+4 |+1 |+1 |Brute Power, Rage 2/day|1/—|
5th |+5 |+4 |+1 |+1 |Juggernaut Might||+15ft
6th |+6/+1 |+5 |+2 |+2 |Brute Power||
7th |+7/+2 |+5 |+2 |+2 |Greater rage||
8th |+8/+3 |+6 |+2 |+2 |Brute Power, Rage 3/day, |2/—|
9th |+9/+4 |+6 |+3 |+3 |Shrug it off||
10th |+10/+5 |+7 |+3 |+3 |Brute Power, Tireless rage||+20ft
11th |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+3 |+3 |Unstoppable Rage||
12th |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+4 |+4 |Brute Power, Rage 4/day|3/—|
13th |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+4 |+4 |Improved Mettle||
14th |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+4 |+4 |Brute Power||
15th |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+5 |+5 |Mighty rage||+25ft
16th |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+5 |+5 |Brute Power, Rage 5/day|4/—|
17th |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+5 |+5 |Juggernaut Mind||
18th |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+6 |+6 |Brute Power||
19th |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+6 |+6 |Perfect Rage||
20th |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+6 |+6 |Brute Power, Infinite Rage|5/—|+30ft
[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, hide armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Note the lack of (good) medium armor proficiencies.

Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing light or no armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. At 5th level, and every subsequent 5th level, this bonus improves by 5 feet.
+10ft at 1st level is nice, but is usually canceled out by medium armor, and almost always gets traded away for pounce. But a slow improvement remains useful at high levels, and helps his mobility considerably.

Rage (Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and DR 4/—, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any skills or abilities that require patience, concentration, or delicacy (such as casting spells, picking locks, using the Diplomacy skill, and so on). A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued for the duration of the current encounter.

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, and a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.
A slight change here, in that Rage grants damage reduction that stacks with the normal stuff. Yes, DR will be high. But to be useful, it kind of needs to be. It generally works out to be equal to his level while raging, which isn't that absurd.

Brute Power: At 2nd level, and every subsequent second level, a barbarian may select one Brute Power from the list below. All Brute Power abilities are (Ex) unless otherwise specified.(Powers listed within spoiler box for convenience; there are more than 20 at the moment)




Bite Yourself: During a rage, when not wielding any weapons, you may attempt to injure a foe with his own natural weapons. You provoke an attack of opportunity (unless you have the Improved Grapple feat), then you and the target of this feat must make opposed grapple checks. If you are successful, you impale the creature on its own claws (or make it bite itself, or strangle it with a tentacle, or…), dealing damage equal to the creature’s natural weapon damage plus your Strength modifier, +4 for every size category larger than your foe you are.

Heir of Beowulf: During a rage, and when grappling your foe, you may attempt to literally disarm them. Once you have pinned your foe, make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, your foe must make a Fortitude save, with a DC equal to 10 + ½ your level + your Strength modifier. If you succeed, you rip off an appendage. Creatures with 4 or more limbs of the same type reduce all penalties by half. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier. Prerequisite: Bite Yourself or Disarming Rage ability, Mighty Rage class ability.



The loss of an arm causes a creature to be unable to cast spells with somatic components, wield two-handed weapons, shields, or any other activity which involves its off-hand. Its Strength modifier is reduced by half, it suffers a -4 penalty to any Strength or Dexterity-based checks, and a -2 penalty to all rolls due to pain and distraction.

The lost of a leg reduces a creature’s speed to one quarter normal. It suffers a -10 penalty to any check involving balance or movement (such as Climb or Tumble), a -4 penalty to Dexterity, and a -2 penalty to all rolls due to pain and distraction.

Bleeding Strike: During a rage, you may make a bleeding strike. As a standard action, make a melee attack. If it hits, you deal normal damage, and your target bleeds for a number of rounds equal to your Strength modifier, losing one point of Constitution each round. If you use this ability on a target who’s already bleeding, you extend the duration of the bleed effect by your Strength modifier. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Blood in the Eyes: A target affected by your bleeding strike must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ Barbarian level + Strength modifier) or be blinded for the duration of the bleed effect. Prerequisites: Bleeding Strike, Barbarian 10

Bloodlust Strike: During a rage, you may make a bloodlust strike. As a standard action, make a melee attack. If it hits, you gain temporary hit points equal to one-half the damage you just dealt. These temporary hit points last for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier, or until the end of your rage (whichever comes first). If you use this ability again before your temporary hit points are used up, replace any remaining hit points from the previous use. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Brutal Blow: At 18th level, a barbarian can channel all of his anger into a single attack of devastating power. As a standard action, he may expend one daily use of his rage ability and make a melee attack. Anyone struck by this attack must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + ½ level + the Barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be killed. This ability affects even creatures normally immune to [death] effects, such as constructs and undead. Prerequisite: Barbarian 15

Crippling Strike: During a rage, you may a crippling strikes. As a standard action, you may make a single melee attack. Anyone struck must make a Fortitude save (DC= damage dealt) or else have their speed reduced by half. A creature may be affected more than once by this ability; if it fails a second strike, it is immobilized. Non-physical locomotion, such as a fly spell, isn’t affected by this ability. You may use this feat a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Crushing Strike: During a rage, you may make a crushing strike. As a standard action, make a sunder attempt with a +4 bonus to the attack roll (this bonus stacks with the Improved Sunder feat). If successful, your weapon bypasses hardness as though it was made of adamantine, and deals bonus damage equal to your Strength modifier. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.


Shattering Strike: During a rage, you may make a shattering strike. As a standard action, make a single melee attack against an object. You instantly destroy any non-magical object weighing less than 10lb per Barbarian level, and deal +1d6/Barbarian level to larger or magical objects. Magical objects may make a Fortitude save to negate the extra damage. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier. Prerequisite: Crushing Strike


Walls Must Die: During a rage, you may attempt to breach magical barriers with nothing but the steel in your hands and the anger in your heart. As a standard action, make a melee attack against a magical barrier, such as a wall of force. If the damage exceeds the barrier’s spell level + caster level + primary casting stat, the barrier is dispelled. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier. Prerequisite: Crushing Strike, Shattering Strike

Disarming Rage: During a rage, when not wielding any weapons, you may attempt to snatch a weapon from a foe. Make a disarm attempt with a +4 bonus on your attack roll (this bonus stacks with the Improved Disarm feat). If successful, you are now wielding their weapon, assuming that you are physically capable of holding it, and may make a single melee attack with it against the foe you just disarmed. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Eye of Hate: You may use your Strength modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks. You may also use Intimidate in place of Gather Information checks.


Terrifying Rage: While raging, you gain the Frightful Presence ability. Opponents within 30ft who see you charge, attack, let off a battle cry, and so on must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Barbarian level + your Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 5d6 rounds. Opponents who fail their saves by 5 or more are instead frightened, and those who fail their saves by 10 or more are panicked. Opponent who succeed on their saving throw are immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours. Prerequisite: Eye of Hate, Barbarian 10

Forceful Strike: During a rage, you may make a forceful strike. As either standard action or as part of a charge, make a single melee attack. If it hits, make a special bull rush attempt, using the damage dealt in place of a Strength check. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Leaping Strike: During a rage, you may make a leaping strike. As a full-round action, you may move up to twice your base land speed and make a jump check to leap over your opponent. If your check is successful, you catch them flat-footed (even if they have an ability such as Uncanny Dodge) and deal +1 damage for every 5 points by which your jump check exceeds the required amount. You then land safely on the other side of your foe. The distance traveled during your jump does not count towards your total movement for the round. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Mighty Thews: You gain a bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks equal to your Fast Movement bonus.

Pounce: During a rage, you gain the ability to make a full attack at the end of a charge. Prerequisite: Barbarian 5

Powerful Stance: During a rage, you count as one size category larger for the purposes of grappling, bull rushes, trip attempts, and other such combat maneuvers. When you gain the Mighty Rage class ability, you count as two size categories larger. When you gain the Perfect Rage class ability, you count as three size categories larger. Prerequisite: Greater Rage class ability


Mighty Stance: During a rage, you may wield weapons one size category larger than normal. When you gain the Mighty Rage class ability, you count as two size categories larger. When you gain the Perfect Rage class ability, you count as three size categories larger. Prerequisite: Powerful Stance ability

Power Strike: During a rage, you may make a power strike. At any point when you use the power attack feat, if you hit, you deal +1d6 damage per point of penalty, or +1d8 damage per point of penalty if using a two-handed weapon. Any other abilities which multiple the effects of power attack, such as the leap attack feat or the Frenzied Berserker's Improved Power Attack feature, instead increase the dice size by one step-- d6 to d8 to d10 to d12. These damage dice replace the usual bonus damage from Power Attack. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier. Prerequisite: Barbarian 5, Power Attack

Reactive Rage: When struck by a melee or ranged attack, you may enter a rage as an immediate action.


Instant Rage: You may enter a rage as an immediate action at any point, without having to be struck by an attack. If you are struck by a melee or ranged attack, you may enter a rage without spending an action. Prerequisite: Reactive Rage ability

Spellguard Rage: You gain spell resistance equal to 15+ barbarian level while raging. Prerequisite: Barbarian 12

Spinning Strike: During a rage, you may take a standard action to make a spinning strike. Make one melee attack against each enemy within reach at your highest base attack bonus, and with a -4 penalty on each attack. You may use this ability a number of times per rage equal to your Strength modifier.

Spinning Rage: When making a spinning strike, you do not take a penalty to your attack rolls. Prerequisite: Spinning Strike ability

Track: You gain Track as a bonus feat

Wild Heart: You are uncommonly in touch with the natural world. You gain the Wild Empathy class ability.


Wild Soul: Your connection with nature is legendary. A number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier, you may use speak with animals as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to your barbarian level. Prerequisite: Wild Heart


Rage Powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers)from Pathfinder are also generally appropriate.



Mettle (Ex): At 3nd level at higher, a barbarian can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping barbarian does not gain the benefit of mettle.
No good reason for the barbarian NOT to have this

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 4th level, a barbarian gains damage reduction 1/—. This damage reduction stacks with the damage reduction he gains while raging. At 8th level, and every subsequent 4th level, his DR improves by 1.

Juggernaut Strength (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a barbarian may use his Constitution modifier in place of his Dexterity or Wisdom modifiers when calculating saves.

Greater Rage (Ex): At 7th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3, and his damage reduction increases to 6/—. The penalty to AC remains at -2.
Rage upgrades have been accelerated, as you can see, to help their relevancy.

Shrug it Off (Ex): At 9th level, a barbarian can ignore effects that would doom a lesser man, reducing their effect. He may reduce conditions according to the following table:

{table=head]Condition |Reduce to:
Ability Drained|Ability Damaged
Blinded|Dazzled
Confused|Fascinated
Cowering|Dazed
Dazzled|Unaffected
Exhausted|Fatigued
Fascinated|Unaffected
Fatigued|Unaffected
Frightened|Shaken
Immobilized|Entangled
Nauseated|Sickened
Panicked|Frightened
Paralyzed|Stunned
Shaken|Unaffected
Sickened|Unaffected
Stunned|Dazed[/table]

He may only use this ability once against any given condition or attack, and only Constitution modifier times per day. However, the constitution boost from his rages give him bonus uses of this ability every time he rages. The extra uses are lost at the end of one rage, but regained at the beginning of the next.
Taken almost verbatim from jiriku's fighter fix, because it's just too good and fits the barbarian too well.

Tireless Rage (Ex): At 10th level and higher, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage.
Let's be honest- rage almost always lasts 'til the end of the encounter, so what's the harm in putting this at a reasonable level?

Unstoppable Rage (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, a barbarian gains the benefits of a freedom of movement spell while raging.
One of the most important late-game buffs for any mobility-based character.

Improved Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, a barbarian’s ability to withstand harmful magic increases even more. This ability works like Mettle, except that while he still negates all effects with a successful Will or Fortitude save, he now only suffers the partial effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping barbarian does not receive the benefit of this ability.
Yes, it's near-immunity to SoD and SoS spells. But that crap needs nerfing anyway.

Mighty Rage (Ex): At 15th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4, and his damage reduction improves to DR 8/—. The penalty to AC remains at -2.

Juggernaut Mind (Ex): At 17th level, a barbarian’s mind is too strong to be broken by mere magic. He gains immunity to all hostile [mind affecting] effects.
It's near-epic levels. Shrugging off enchantments is something barbarians are supposed to be able to do well. This just... makes it obvious.

Perfect Rage (Ex): At 19th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +10, his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +5, and his damage reduction improves to DR 10/—. The penalty to AC remains at -2.

Infinite Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian’s rage knows no limit. His rages have no time limit, and he may rage as many times as he wishes each day. He may even rage more than once per encounter, if he has to. This does not allow him unlimited uses of Brutal Blow, although he may enter a rage even if he has expended all of his daily rages to use said ability.
What else could a barbarian's capstone be?


New Feats

Bare-Knuckle Rage
Prerequisite: Rage or Frenzy class ability, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: During a rage, your unarmed strikes deal 1d8 damage.
Special: When you gain the Greater Rage class ability, the damage improves to 2d6. When you gain the Mighty Rage class ability, the damage improves to 3d6. When you gain the Perfect Rage class ability, the damage improves to 4d6. All damage die should be adjusted for larger or smaller barbarians, or for barbarians with the Mighty Stance feat.

Mad Foam Rager [Rage]
Prerequisite: Rage or Frenzy ability
Benefit: When fighting, you can endure tremendous blows with little visible effect. As an immediate action, you can choose to delay the effect of a single attack, spell, or ability used against you. The damage or effect does not take hold until the end of your next turn. You can only use this ability while under the effect of your rage or frenzy ability. You can activate it once every time you use your rage or frenzy ability.
Special: When you gain the Greater Rage class ability, you gain a second turn of potential delay. You may either delay one effect two rounds, or utilize the feat twice during one rage, each time for one round. When you gain the Mighty Rage class ability, the pool improves to three rounds. When you gain the Perfect Rage class ability, the pool improves to four rounds.

Skillful Rage
Prerequisite: Brute Power ability with a limited per-rage usage.
Benefit: You may use your one of your Brute Power abilities an extra 3 times per rage.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time, it applies to a new Brute Power ability.

Extra Brutish
Prerequisite: Barbarian 2
Benefit: You learn an additional Brute Power.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time, you may learn an additional Brute Power.

Martial Barbarian Variant
Lose: All Brute Power abilities
Maneuvers known/readied/Stances: As a crusader, with the following exception:

Barbarians have access to to the Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and White Raven disciplines.

Barbarians may only use their maneuvers and stances while raging. They start the maneuver distribution chain at the beginning of a rage. They may immediately enter a stance when they enter a rage, without spending a swift action. In addition, every time you reduce an enemy to zero hit points or fewer, you may either grant yourself an extra maneuver, or recover an expended maneuver.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is not a good fix. It suffers from too much number bloat, option paralysis on the feat retraining, and lack of otherwise unique class features. Use this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276280)instead.

The Fighter

http://charliebrew.wikispaces.com/file/view/fighter.jpg/290262429/fighter.jpg

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills are Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Combat Mastery Pool
1st |+1 |+2 |+0 |+2 |Combat Mastery, My Blade is my Brother, Victor of a Thousand Battles|1
2nd |+2 |+3 |+0 |+3 |Canny Fighting|2
3rd |+3 |+3 |+1 |+3 |Armor Mastery,|
4th |+4 |+4 |+1 |+4 |Imitative Style|3
5th |+5 |+4 |+1 |+4 |Ogre of Battle, Mettle|
6th |+6/+1 |+5 |+2 |+5 |Roving Warrior|4
7th |+7/+2 |+5 |+2 |+5 |Counterattack|
8th |+8/+3 |+6 |+2 |+6 |Lord of Blades|5
9th |+9/+4 |+6 |+3 |+6 |Strike of Denial|
10th |+10/+5 |+7 |+3 |+7 |Giant of Battle, Adaptive Style|6
11th |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+3 |+7 |Storm of Steel|
12th |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+4 |+8 |Roving Knight|7
13th |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+4 |+8 |Masterstroke|
14th |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+4 |+9 |Flow of Battle|8
15th |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+5 |+9 |Flowing Style, Titan of Battle|
16th |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+5 |+10 |Tyrant of Blades|9
17th |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+5 |+10 |Improved Mettle|
18th |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+6 |+11 |Roving Lord|10
19th |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+6 |+11 |Dire Hits|
20th |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+6 |+12 |Freeform Style, Colossus of Battle|11[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all forms of armor and shields (including tower shields).

Combat Mastery: A fighter is a master of all forms of combat, and he is able to reapply himself quickly. As opposed to other warriors, who must study and apply themselves carefully to learn a technique, a fighter must only practice for a short time to remember it.

He gains a number of bonus feats, drawn from the list of fighter bonus feats, as shown on the table above. The feats gained from this ability are hereafter referred to as his combat mastery pool.

Unlike normal bonus feats, a fighter may retrain feats from this pool, and this pool only, with minimal effort. He may switch out any one feat with 15 minutes of quiet meditation and practice, or he may retrain all of them with an uninterrupted hour of practice after a full night’s sleep. He may not retrain a feat currently being used as a prerequisite for another feat or a prestige class, unless he retrains the subsequent feats in the chain as well.

Tips and Tricks
This ability provides the fighter with incredible flexibility, especially at later levels, when he becomes able to retrain feats during combat. However, with dozens of sourcebooks and hundreds of potential feats, it's quite easy to get bogged down in the minutia and waste large amounts of game-time.

For that reason, I recommend that fighters prepare a shortlist of useful feats. Come up with useful feat chains-- a tripping build, an archery build, a two-weapon fighting build, and so on. Adapt these to the campaign-- if you're fighting a lot of archery-focused foes, modify the chains accordingly. But do as much of the work as possible between sessions. Briefly note their effects, and include a reference so that you can quickly look it up in case of confusion. This way, when the situation calls for, say, nonlethal damage, you're already ready with the appropriate feats to retrain.

In addition, the flexibility of this ability dramatically decreases if you use the bonus feats to qualify for prestige classes and other cornerstones of your permanent build. I suggest that if you know that you won't want to retrain a feat, you endeavor to use a non-bonus feat to acquire it.

My Blade is my Brother (Ex): My Blade is my Brother: A fighter has a near-supernatural connection with his weapons. He selects one weapon he has access to; he gains Weapon Proficiency (if applicable) with that weapon as a bonus feat, and may add half his fighter level (minimum +1) to rolls made to resist being disarmed while wielding his chosen weapon. In addition;

At 1st level, he gains Weapon Focus with his chosen weapon.
At 3rd level, he gains Weapon Specialization with his chosen weapon.
At 6th level, he gains Greater Weapon Focus with his chosen weapon.
At 9th level, he gains Melee or Ranged Weapon Mastery.
At 12th level, he gains Greater Weapon Specialization with his chosen weapon.
At 15th level, he gains Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, or Slashing Fury, whichever is appropriate for his chosen weapon.
At 18th level, he gains Weapon Supremacy with his chosen weapon.
These feats are not included in his Combat Mastery pool, and he does not need to meet the normal prerequisites. A fighter may select a new weapon for this ability to apply to. He must spend one hour training with the new weapon to switch over his feats. This hour does not overlap with the time to retain Combat Mastery feats.

Victor of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill things. He may make a special knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the table below

{table=head]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-25|+2
26–30|+3
31–35|+4
36+|+5[/table]

Canny Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter may make a number of attacks of opportunity each round equal to his Intelligence modifier. This ability counts as the feat “Combat Reflexes” in terms of prerequisites for feats and prestige classes.

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 3th level, a fighter may reduce the armor check penalty from any armor he wears by an amount equal to his Strength modifier. He may also ignore the speed penalty from medium and heavy armor.

Imitative Style (Ex): At 4th level, a fighter can actively learn from his foes. He may spend 5-Int modifier (minimum one) rounds studying a foe, spending a swift action each round to do so. After one round of studying a foe, he becomes aware of what the foe's feats are. After the full duration, he may retrain up to (Int modifier) feats from his Combat Mastery pool as a move action, with the limitation that the new feats must be feats possessed by the studied foe. He must meet all normal prerequisites. A fighter may only retrain his feats once per round.

Ogre of Battle (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter counts as a creature one size larger when determining when determining his size modifier for combat maneuvers, such as grapple checks, bull rushes, trip attempts, and so on. This ability stacks with powerful build, and with the effects of spells, powers, and abilities that change the subject’s size category.

Mettle (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Roving Warrior(Ex): Beginning at 6rd level, when a opponent within a fighter's reach takes a five-foot step, he may, as an immediate action, move five feet to remain within reach of the foe.

Counterattack (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter’s skill is such that he punishes foes for the slightest mistake. If a foe within his reach makes a melee attack against the fighter and misses by an amount equal to or less than his Intelligence modifier, he may immediately make a melee attack against them at his full base attack bonus.

Lord of Blades (Ex): At 8th level, when making a full attack, a fighter may make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. In addition, for every five points of intelligence modifier, he may make an additional attack at his highest bonus. For example, an 8th level fighter with an intelligence score of 20 (a +5 modifier) could make four attacks: three at a +8 bonus, and one at a +3 bonus. This ability can only be applied once per round, no matter how many full attacks the fighter makes.

Strike of Denial (Ex): At 9th level, any foe struck by an attack of opportunity by a fighter must halt their movement for the turn.

Giant of Battle (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter’s Ogre of Battle ability improves. He now counts as a creature two sizes larger when determining his size modifier for combat maneuvers, such as grapple checks, bull rushes, trip attempts, and so on. This ability stacks with powerful build, and with the effects of spells, powers, and abilities that change the subject’s size category.

Adaptive Style (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter may, as a move action, retrain a number of feats from his Combat Mastery pool equal to one-half his Intelligence modifier. In addition, he no longer must spend a move action to retrain feats after using his Imitative Style ability. This ability may only be used in combat. A fighter may only retrain his feats once per round.

Storm of Steel (Ex): At 11th level, a fighter’s mastery of combat leaves others in the dust. He may make a full attack as a standard action.

Roving Knight (Ex): At 12th level, a fighter may move up to ten feet as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the usual five foot step. In addition, he may use his Roving Warrior ability without using up his immediate action for the round.

Masterstroke (Ex): At 13th level, a fighter’s attacks are not affected by damage reduction.

Flow of Battle (Ex): At 14th level, a fighter no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.

Titan of Battle (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter’s Giant of Battle ability improves. He now counts as a creature three sizes larger when determining his size modifier for combat maneuvers, such as grapple checks, bull rushes, trip attempts, and so on. This ability stacks with powerful build, and with the effects of spells, powers, and abilities that change the subject’s size category.

Flowing Style (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter may, as a swift action, retrain a number of feats from his Combat Mastery pool equal to one-half his Intelligence modifier. This ability may only be used in combat. A fighter may only retrain his feats once per round.

Tyrant of Blades (Ex): At 16th level, a fighter may make a full attack at any point when he’d normally be permitted to make a single attack, such as during attacks of opportunity or when using his Counterattack ability. In addition, when making a full attack, he may make an additional attack at each level of base attack bonus. For example, a 16th level fighter with 30 Intelligence (a +10 modifier, or two extra attacks from Lord of Blades) would have an full attack using the following bonuses: +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. This ability can only be applied once per round, no matter how many full attacks the fighter makes.

Improved Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 17th level, a fighter’s ability to withstand harmful magic increases even more. This ability works like Mettle, except that while he still negates all effects with a successful Will or Fortitude save, he now only suffers the partial effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not receive the benefit of this ability.

Roving Lord (Ex): At 18th level, a fighter may move up to his speed as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity. In addition, he no longer needs to spend an action to use his Roving Knight ability, although he may not use both Roving Lord and Roving Knight on the same turn.

Dire Hits (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter deals his foes wounds that are not easily healed. The damage dealt by the fighter cannot be healed naturally, by fast healing, or by regeneration, and is always considered lethal damage, unless the fighter chooses otherwise. In addition, anyone trying to heal such damage magically must make a Heal check with a DC equal to the fighter’s level plus his Intelligence modifier, or the spell has no effect.

Freeform Style(Ex): At 20th level, a fighter may, as a free action, retrain a number of feats from his Combat Mastery pool equal to his Intelligence modifier. This ability may only be used in combat. A fighter may only retrain his feats once per round.

Colossus of Battle (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter’s Titan of Battle ability improves. He now counts as a creature four sizes larger when determining his size modifier for combat maneuvers, such as grapple checks, bull rushes, trip attempts, and so on. This ability stacks with powerful build, and with the effects of spells, powers, and abilities that change the subject’s size category.

Design Philosophy
Cribbing a few ideas from Ziegander's Action Hero fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208356), the fighter gets attacks. Lots of them. The ability to make upwards of 15 attacks per round, ignoring damage reduction, should remain quite competitive with spells and maneuvers at high levels. Thanks to the wide pool of feats and the X of Battle line of abilities, he should also be able to do a solid job as a tripper/grappler/what have you, and the easily changeable bonus feats should make it easy for him to adapt to whatever role he wants. The large number of skill points, combined with an intelligence focus, should help his out-of-combat abilities.

New Feats
Hey, look! New feats, as promised!

Crushing Tackle
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: If you successfully Bull Rush a foe into a solid object, deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 5 feet he would have been pushed normally, plus twice your Strength modifier.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Giant Rush
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: When you win a Bull Rush attempt, you may push your foe the full distance without having to move with him.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Doomhammer
Prerequisite:Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Any bludgeoning weapon)
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single melee attack with a blunt weapon, at a -2 penalty. If your attack hits, deal damage as normal and make a bull rush attempt as a free action, without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Special: You may combine this feat with the power attack feat. For every -1 penalty you take to attack, gain a +1 bonus on the Strength check for the Bull Rush attempt (+2 for two-handed weapons). This bonus replaces the bonus damage from using power attack. A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Brutal Disarm
Prerequisite: Improved Disarm
Benefit: Make a disarm attempt as normal. If you have enough arms free to wield the target's weapon, you may grab it and make an immediate melee attack, taking the normal penalties for wielding a weapon in your off hand but catching your opponent flat-footed.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Shield Pull
Prerequisite: Improved Disarm
Benefit: You may remove a target's shield with a successful disarm attempt, instead of his weapon. The target gets a +4 bonus to resist being de-shielded.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Lightning Disarm
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm
Benefit: After a successful disarm attempt, you may immediately make a melee attack.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Cunning Feint
Prerequisite: Improved Feint, Intelligence 15
Benefit: Add your Intelligence modifier to Bluff checks made to feint in combat. In addition, if wielding a weapon to which you could normally apply the benefits of the weapon finesse feat, you may feint as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Brutal Overrun
Prerequisite: Improved Overrun
Benefit: You may make an attack of opportunity against any opponent knocked prone by an ovverrun attempt.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Chokehold
Prerequisite: Improved Grapple
Benefit: Once you have successfully initiated a grapple, you may deal 2d6+Strength modifier lethal damage every round with a successful grapple check.
Normal: Damaging an opponent in a grapple deals 1d3+Strength modifier nonlethal damage.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Fast Grab
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with an unarmed strike, you deal normal damage, and may immediately attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. However, you suffer a -4 penalty on the first grapple check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Frogmarch
Prerequisite: Improved Grapple, Strength 15
Benefit: When attempting to move during a grapple, you may move up to your full speed with a successful grapple check.
Normal: You may move up to half your speed with a successful grapple check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Side Throw
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Grapple
Benefit: As a standard action, make a grapple check against one foe within melee range. If you win the check, you may immediately make a bull rush attempt against that foe. You do not provoke any attacks of opportunity for the bull rush, and you do not need to move along with your foe to throw him the full distance. After being moved, your foe must make a Reflex save (DC=the difference between your Bull Rush checks) or be knocked prone.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Break on Through
Prerequisite: Improved Sunder, Strength 15
Benefit: If you miss an opponent in melee combat by an amount equal to or less than your Strength modifier, you may make a sunder attempt against their weapon or armor as a free action. If you destroy it, you deal them melee damage as though you had hit them with the initial attack.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.


Shield Cover
Prerequisite: Shield Specialization (Any)
Benefit: As a swift action, you may transfer the shield bonus from your shield to an adjacent ally until the beginning of your next turn. If either of you moves or is forced to move so that you are no longer adjacent, the benefit is lost.
Special: If your natural reach (ie, from size) is more than five feet, you may extend the benefit of this feat to any ally within your reach. A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Watch my Back
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: When you fight defensively, use the total defense option, the combat expertise feat, or any other ability where you sacrifice offensive accuracy for defense, you may transfer the defensive bonus to an ally within your reach. The bonus only lasts as long as you are using the ability, and your ally is within your reach.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 9 ranks
Benefit: You may attempt to demoralize an opponent (see the Intimidate skill for details) in combat as a move action. In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on this check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Mass Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 12 ranks, Staredown
Benefit: As a standard action, you may attempt to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single Intimidate check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Swift Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 15 ranks, Staredown
Benefit: You may attempt to demoralize an opponent (see the Intimidate skill for details) in combat as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Perfect Terror
Prerequisite: Intimidate 19 ranks, Staredown, Mass Staredown
Benefit: After your first successful attack in combat, opponents within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ level + your Charisma modifier) or become shaken for 4d6 rounds. If they fail the save by five or more, they become frightened for 4d6 rounds instead, and if they fail their save by ten or more, they become panicked for 4d6 rounds instead.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<reserved for something?>

[Morcleon]

The sole reason I'm not doing anything with the barbarian is because I've absolutely no experience with that class. Never played it, never seen anyone play it, I think I've looked at it once in my life... :P


The Fighter

Ah yes... the fighter... :)


Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills are Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Skills are the first big change-- the fighter gets more, and he gets lots of them. He's supposed to be a smart warrior and a leader of men, after all.

Much expanded skill list, which is good, as well as quite a few skill points. Although the fighter has never really been a skill monkey-type, even if Int is relatively important. Maybe dial it down to 4/level? Also, the way you've made this class has more of a tactician feel (ie, Int focus rather than Cha) rather than someone who uses social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, etc). But I can see how it fits (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mitth'raw'nuruodo)...


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, a number of exotic weapons equal to his inherit Intelligence modifier, and with all forms of armor and shields (including tower shields).

Interesting twist with exotic weapons... Not bad... Also, it's "inherent". :P


Combat Mastery: A fighter is a master of all forms of combat, and he is able to reapply himself quickly. As opposed to other warriors, who must study and apply themselves carefully to learn a technique, a fighter must only practice for a short time to remember it. He maintains a pool of bonus feats, drawn from the list of fighter bonus feats, the size of which is shown on the table above. Unlike normal bonus feats, a fighter may retrain feats from this pool, and this pool only, with minimal effort. He may switch out any one feat with 15 minutes of quiet meditation and practice, or he may retrain all of them with an uninterrupted hour of practice after a full night’s sleep. He may not retrain a feat currently being used as a prerequisite for another feat or a prestige class, unless he retrains the subsequent feats in the chain as well.
Another idea taken from jiriku's fix... sorry, but it was almost right

Interesting ability... Seems a bit abusable, IMHO. Reminds me a bit of Red Mage's Art of the Stat Swap. :P


My Blade is my Brother: A fighter has a near-supernatural connection with his weapons. He selects one weapon he is proficient with; he gains Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat, and may add half his fighter level to rolls made to resist being disarmed while wielding his chosen weapon. In addition;
At 4th level, he gains Weapon Specialization with his chosen weapon.
At 8th level, he gains Greater Weapon Focus with his chosen weapon.
At 10th level, he gains Melee or Ranged Weapon Mastery.
At 12th level, he gains Greater Weapon Specialization with his chosen weapon.
At 14th level, he gains Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, or Slashing Fury, whichever is appropriate for his chosen weapon.
At 18th level, he gains Weapon Supremacy with his chosen weapon.

These feats are not included in his Combat Mastery pool. However, a fighter may select a new weapon for this ability to apply to. He must spend one hour training with the new weapon to switch over his feats. This hour does not overlap with t he time to retain Combat Mastery feats.
More free feats? Yes, yes... on the other hand, it seems like an easy way to cement the whole 'weapon master' thing.

Good. This makes the Weapon Focus chain actually worth the large number of feats (seeing as they're all free)


Armor Mastery: At 5th level, a fighter may reduce the armor check penalty from any armor he wears by an amount equal to his Intelligence modifier. He may also ignore the speed penalty from medium and heavy armor.

Makes heavy armor (kinda) worth it. However, knights get the "ignore heavy armor speed penalty" at level 9, and heavy armor is already sort of their shtick. I'd say move heavy armor speed to 10 lvl or so.


Imitative Style: Beginning at 6th level, a fighter can actively learn from his foes. If he spends (5-Intelligence modifier) rounds studying a foe in combat, he may swap any number of his Combat Mastery feats for feats possessed by the foe. He must still meet all the normal prerequisites.
Seemed like a good idea for a master of clever combat and adaptive styles.

5-Int rounds, minimum 1 round, I would think... Although switching all your feats is bit much... Maybe a number of feats equal to your Int modifier? Also, don't forget to bold the name. :P


Flurry of Blows: At 10th level, a fighter’s mastery of combat leaves others in the dust. He may make a full attack as a standard action.
Move and full attack? Madness! ...or not.

Again, bold the name. :P Otherwise, not bad. Should probably give it a different name than the monk class feature, though...

[Wyntonian]

Spinning Rage [Rage]
Prerequisite: Spinning Rage
Benefit: When you use the Spinning Rage feat, you do not suffer the usual -4 penalty to attack.

Read this a couple times. I assume it's supposed to reference the Spinning Strike feat.

I only got through the Barbarian, but I liked what I saw good work, that. Keep it up.

[bobthe6th]

well... this seems balanced, especially against ToB initiators.

barbarian can now take some punishment, and deal out some pain with its great axe(though real babarians use heavy picks...). nothing wrong here...

fighter I think needs some real features. I almost would want to give it acess to generic feats(there is some nice stuff there)...
perhaps some bonuses to craft? or really fast craft? or a flat out fabricate? just so shatter doesn't end fighters ability to fight in a combat. or Ex ability to make wielded weapons non magically enhanced(so now a weapon counts as having +1/4 fighter level enhancement bonus cause fighters are awesome)?

[Grod_The_Giant]

fighter I think needs some real features. I almost would want to give it acess to generic feats(there is some nice stuff there)...
perhaps some bonuses to craft? or really fast craft? or a flat out fabricate? just so shatter doesn't end fighters ability to fight in a combat. or Ex ability to make wielded weapons non magically enhanced(so now a weapon counts as having +1/4 fighter level enhancement bonus cause fighters are awesome)?

It's not done yet. I'm still trying to come up with more; I just thought I'd go ahead and fill the reserved post with what I've got so far.

Thanks for the typo catches, folks. Stay tuned!

[NeoSeraphi]

The barbarian class needs some work. As it stands now, you have not fixed the main problem with the barbarian, which is that it is a completely passive class. You can rage, which adds some bonuses to your health and stats, but it still ends up in you charging and full-attacking.

Often times, the purpose of a homebrew is not to make something better, it's to make something more playable, and there is a difference between the two.

You have added some flavor to the barbarian. You have added some power to the barbarian. You have not, however, made him more interesting to play. And, aside from the Track feat, you gave him no additional out-of-combat usefulness.

I saw the feats. They are decent, but that's not a fix for the class itself. Forcing a feat tax onto a class in order to make it effective is one thing, but forcing a feat tax onto a class in order to give it some actual options in combat is just bad design.

Sorry for the harsh critique. Is your barbarian better than the PHB barbarian? Of course. Is it good enough? Not at all. In addition to passively upgrading the bonuses you receive from rage, you should add some kind of special attack action for the barbarian, something that allows them to use their standard action for something more powerful than a single swing (Like a single swing and a rider effect), as well as perhaps some kind of crusader-like strike and heal effect, representing their lust for battle actually sustaining themselves. And add to their out of combat usefulness as well. Track is only as good as the DM makes it. You could easily put in some more flavorful, and useful abilities, like speak with animals a few times per day, or the ability to use your Strength score instead of your Charisma score on Intimidate checks you make against humanoids, and perhaps the ability to use Intimidate checks in place of Gather Information checks (you go to a bar and you make someone cough up the info you're looking for)

Also, you gave the barbarian absolutely no Sunder support, which surprised me. If you want to give the barbarian his own niche, you really should give him at least some kind of Sunder support. There were a hell of a lot more barbarians raping, pillaging, and plundering villages than there were shrugging off fireballs.

Hope this helps. I really would like to see this class improved, it's one of my favorite base classes.

[Yitzi]

Combat Mastery could be a bit clearer. Does he get bonus feats from the pool? (If so, you should say so.) Does he switch around his existing feats among the feats in the pool? (If so, the ability is weaker than the fighter's bonus feats).

The real challenge of making a worthwhile fighter is that you need to create a situation where horizontal power (having a lot of options, which is the natural way to go with the fighter, based both on the fluff and the apparent intent of the class) translates strongly into effectiveness.* You look like you've got the horizontal power part down (once Combat Mastery is clarified), but making that translate into tier 3 power needs work. (Making it translate into tier 2 or higher power is pretty much impossible)

*My own approach to the problem was to make a lot of top-of-the-tree feats which range from useless to extremely powerful depending on situation, allowing the fighter, and only the fighter, to take enough of them that they can cover each others' weaknesses. (I also improved some other things that needed it, most notably the weapon-specific fighter-only feats.)

[Kenneth]

i enjoy what you did with the fighter, take a look at teh fighters ive been using for years in my own homebrewed world hopefully it will give you a couple more inspirational ideas.

Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996)

[Grod_The_Giant]

You have added some flavor to the barbarian. You have added some power to the barbarian. You have not, however, made him more interesting to play. And, aside from the Track feat, you gave him no additional out-of-combat usefulness.
That's... very good to know, thank you.


I saw the feats. They are decent, but that's not a fix for the class itself. Forcing a feat tax onto a class in order to make it effective is one thing, but forcing a feat tax onto a class in order to give it some actual options in combat is just bad design.
A good point.

Sorry for the harsh critique. Is your barbarian better than the PHB barbarian? Of course. Is it good enough? Not at all. In addition to passively upgrading the bonuses you receive from rage, you should add some kind of special attack action for the barbarian,

something that allows them to use their standard action for something more powerful than a single swing (Like a single swing and a rider effect); perhaps some kind of crusader-like strike and heal effect, representing their lust for battle actually sustaining themselves; more flavorful, and useful abilities, like speak with animals a few times per day, or the ability to use your Strength score instead of your Charisma score on Intimidate checks you make against humanoids, and perhaps the ability to use Intimidate checks in place of Gather Information checks (you go to a bar and you make someone cough up the info you're looking for)
All excellent ideas. Thank you.


Also, you gave the barbarian absolutely no Sunder support, which surprised me. If you want to give the barbarian his own niche, you really should give him at least some kind of Sunder support. There were a hell of a lot more barbarians raping, pillaging, and plundering villages than there were shrugging off fireballs.
Herp derp! I knew there was a special attack mode I was forgetting...


Looking at some broader internet sources (I was traveling while working on this and didn't have internet access), I think I might want something like Pathfinder's rage powers. Fold most of the new feats into the list, along with new abilities-- sundering, bleed effects, strike-and-heal, and so on. Maybe move some of the new abilities, like Mettle and Mighty Thews, onto the list as well.

I like your non-combat suggestions; I'll try to think of a few more to add on.


Yitzi, I'll rewrite Combat Mastery to make it clearer right now. I would like to reiterate that the fighter is very much a work in progress at the moment. I'm still trying to find a good way to add offensive power, preferably in the form of class features.

[NeoSeraphi]

Rereading my earlier post, I realize that my rhetoric was inappropriate. I did not mean to be so negative with my critique. I really do just want to help you finish your product and what you've done so far is definitely an improvement over the original class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rereading my earlier post, I realize that my rhetoric was inappropriate. I did not mean to be so negative with my critique. I really do just want to help you finish your product and what you've done so far is definitely an improvement over the original class.

It's ok, I have a pretty tough skin. I'm sure I've been just as harsh with some of your stuff from time to time :smallwink:. Seriously, though, I have nothing but respect for you as a homebrewer, and it was, as I said, a very useful post.

[Roxxy]

I'm a Pathfinder player, so I won't be using this as is, as the Pathfinder Barbarian is good enough not to need fixing. Pathfinder gives them a massive selection of rage powers that make the class very, very fun. The Fighter, however, could use some flexibility, and I believe your combat pool and increased intelligence points is what is needed. I think I'll give Fighters in my campaigns these ability as a house rule, while keeping everything else as it normally is for a Pathfinder Fighter. Thank you for giving me something that will be very, very useful.

[Yitzi]

Yitzi, I'll rewrite Combat Mastery to make it clearer right now. I would like to reiterate that the fighter is very much a work in progress at the moment. I'm still trying to find a good way to add offensive power, preferably in the form of class features.

By offensive power, you mean the ability to hit even hard-to-hit enemies or the ability to do huge damage on a hit. I have some ideas on the former, but to me, the latter simply isn't what the fighter is.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Barbarian updated with a huge list of Brute Powers-- almost all of the former [Rage] feats, a few class features, and a fair amount of new stuff. I might come up with some more for an archer archetype. And, of course, suggestions are welcome.

Still not sure what I want to do with the fighter, sadly. Yitzi, you mentioned that you had some ideas; would you care to share them?

[Yitzi]

They're actually from the fix linked in my sig, but to save you the time of searching for them:

-Penetrating Blow. Turns the target's AC (from non-touch-AC sources only, plus maybe deflection) into DR. Meant for use in combination with Power Attack to overcome the resulting DR, and has it as a prerequisite. Making the trade ratios beneficial (i.e. if you use Power Attack to cancel out the DR, you lose less than you gained) should require either enough of a feat combo that the tactic is too much of an investment to be worth it for non-fighters, or else a fighter-specific ability. If you're boosting barbarians' Power Attack, that can have the effect too, and is ok. (I did it with an upgraded Weapon Focus line, of which 3 of the 4 are fighter-only, and had a separate boost to barbarians' PA.)
-Greater Feint. Use BAB instead of Bluff ranks when feinting. Nice and simple, and great against anyone who relies on DEX/dodge/etc. bonuses for AC. Has Improved Feint as a prerequisite.
-Two-Weapon Trap. Also used against DEX/dodge/etc. bonuses, and forces the enemy to divide them between your weapons when you attack with multiple weapons simultaneously. Also gives a real reason to use 2 weapons.

Another good approach is to make the fighter good at combat maneuvers through feats. (And by "good", I mean "has a decent chance of grappling a dragon up to 3 sizes larger than himself or tripping a Tarrasque.")

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

As written, the first entry in the Brute Power list is Brute Power, which, as written, can both be taken as a power and stacks with itself. Remove the bullet point in front of that particular entry and you're good to go. :smallbiggrin:

[nonsi]

Your Fighter fix is more versatile and a bit more capable, for sure, but it still loses the action-economy race.

As for the Barbarian - I'm not much of a Barbarian fan, but this is the first one I've seen that justifies the title "Barbarian" and actually does something (it doesn't need so much speed boost though - +15ft / +20ft at levels 10 & 20 would be enough).

[Yitzi]

Your Fighter fix is more versatile and a bit more capable, for sure, but it still loses the action-economy race.

Was that directed at Grod or at me?

If at me: Who does it lose to? The only ones with substantially better action economy than the fighter are casters using Quicken Spell, and that's something that they both can't keep up for long and end up paying for in the power per spell.
Also, when passive defenses are on par with (if not superior to) active defenses (as is a consequence of the overall fix, particularly the changes to wizards), action economy becomes less important. (Not useless by any stretch; twice as many actions still means twice the effectiveness. But twice as many actions is worth no more than actions which are twice as powerful.)

[EdroGrimshell]

Your Fighter fix is more versatile and a bit more capable, for sure, but it still loses the action-economy race.

On action economy fighters, meet the action hero variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208356), a personal favorite

[Grod_The_Giant]

On action economy fighters, meet the action hero variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208356), a personal favorite

I've looked at that one a couple times, and while it's quite good, it's not quite what I want.

I think the fighter needs to be the battlefield controller, ultimately. Not a big damage dealer, but a tripper, a crippler, an AoO machine. That, I think, is a distinct role to shoot for that should still let him contribute to the party at high levels.

[EdroGrimshell]

I've looked at that one a couple times, and while it's quite good, it's not quite what I want.

I think the fighter needs to be the battlefield controller, ultimately. Not a big damage dealer, but a tripper, a crippler, an AoO machine. That, I think, is a distinct role to shoot for that should still let him contribute to the party at high levels.

Still good for action economy ideas. For the rest Realms of Chaos created the Combat Technique (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217700) system. It's rather interesting and gives some good combat options

[SpaceBadger]

I like the Barbarian stuff, esp Shrug It Off and resistance to mind-affecting magic, which fit the Conan model nicely. Mettle and Improved Mettle seem over-powered to me - like Evasion but doubled, for both Fort and Will saves. Mad Foam Rager is also excellent and Conan-ish.

I play Pathfinder so am accustomed to Rage Powers, and will probably borrow some of your new Brute Powers as well. Here are two homebrew Rage Powers that I made up; feel free to include them as Brute Powers if you like them:


Raging Brawler: While raging, allows use of Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, and Improved Overrun. If you already have one of these feats, allows use of the “Greater” version of that feat.
Raging Cleave: While raging, allows use of Cleave feat. If you have Cleave, allows use of Great Cleave. If you have Great Cleave, Dx 13, and BAB 4+, allows use of Whirlwind Attack.


The Fighter stuff is also good. I found Combat Mastery still a little confusing as to how the feat pool and retraining work. My Blade is My Brother is excellent and I will immediately add it to Fighter class abilities in my game, although I'm not so sure about the fast retraining to different weapons - seems to me like the chain of benefits applicable to one type of weapon chosen early in the Fighter's career fits better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fighter fix is complete!

To summarize the differences, the barbarian focused on taking the hits and dealing big power attack damage. Brute powers give it more options both in and out of combat, but they are, of course, limited in number.

Fighters are more intelligence-focused warriors, able to make lots of attacks each round, and unmatched in combat maneuvers like tripping and grappling. They can change their entire build around in a matter of hours to better suit the situation at hand.

[Seerow]

I actually like this Fighter. A couple things:



Dire Hits (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter deals his foes wounds that are not easily healed. The damage dealt by the fighter cannot be healed naturally, by fast healing, or by regeneration, and is always considered lethal damage. In addition, anyone trying to heal such damage magically must make a Heal check with a DC equal to the fighter’s level plus his Intelligence modifier, or the spell has no effect.


This should be the fighter's damage is always lethal or non-lethal as he sees fit. If the group wants to take someone alive, the Fighter should not be a detriment to this cause, though the ability to say "**** you regeneration I don't need fire" is nice.



Imitative Style (Ex): At 4th level, a fighter can actively learn from his foes. If he spends (5-Intelligence modifier) rounds studying a foe in combat, he may swap a number of feats from his Combat Mastery pool equal to his Intelligence modifier for feats possessed by the foe. He must still meet all the normal prerequisites.

This is really poorly defined. What sort of action is it to study a foe in combat? Is it a free action? Is the Fighter giving up his feats? What happens if the number of rounds becomes negative? This ability could either be really awesome or really lame.



On the ____ Of Battle line of abilities, I think it may go a little over the top. By the end, you're getting a +36 bonus to all maneuvers, which is a lot. The size category boosting alone is probably enough to balance the Fighter out, if you really want to account for higher strength scores, maybe add 1/4-1/2 level, but adding full level on top is too much imo. Unless your intent is "Always win with 100% odds, even when grappling the tarrasque or similarly built brute creatures"


Tyrant of Blades has an example of a 15th level Fighter, when the ability doesn't come until 16th level. Probably something wrong there. (Guessing holdover from earlier draft).


I personally think the immediate interrupt full attack is unneeded. You're already giving a full attack on AoOs. The Fighter has access to the feats to make literally anything provoke an AoO, which will be extremely powerful on this fighter. Another full attack per round is really really not needed. Plus you already have the +4 size category capstone.



A couple random suggestions:
-Something that lets you reassign combat pool feats mid combat at higher levels. Maybe start as a move action, upgrade to swift/immediate actions. Sure you can mimick your opponent, but at higher levels you should get the ability to counter your opponents.

-Something that negates all AoOs incurred from using combat maneuvers. Basically Improved _____ without the +4 bonus and special extra effect. You may already have something like this that I missed, but I didn't see it and it seems like it would fit excellently.

-Make Armor Mastery strength based. I know you want to push an int based fighter, but you've already got a lot of int bonuses packed into early levels, and having strength reduce ACP makes a lot more sense than intelligence.

-The My Blade is My Brother progression seems really awkward. You have 6 abilities there, why not make them come in a predictable progression, at 1/4/8/12/16/20 rather than sometimes 2 levels later sometimes 4 levels later like it currently is? I know it parts from where the feats currently come online, but since you're giving it for free it can afford to be a little later in some places. Alternatively you can make it 1/3/6/9/12/15 if you want it earlier.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This should be the fighter's damage is always lethal or non-lethal as he sees fit. If the group wants to take someone alive, the Fighter should not be a detriment to this cause, though the ability to say "**** you regeneration I don't need fire" is nice.

This is really poorly defined. What sort of action is it to study a foe in combat? Is it a free action? Is the Fighter giving up his feats? What happens if the number of rounds becomes negative? This ability could either be really awesome or really lame.
...
Tyrant of Blades has an example of a 15th level Fighter, when the ability doesn't come until 16th level. Probably something wrong there. (Guessing holdover from earlier draft).

Good catchs, thanks. I'll fix the wording.



On the ____ Of Battle line of abilities, I think it may go a little over the top. By the end, you're getting a +36 bonus to all maneuvers, which is a lot. The size category boosting alone is probably enough to balance the Fighter out, if you really want to account for higher strength scores, maybe add 1/4-1/2 level, but adding full level on top is too much imo. Unless your intent is "Always win with 100% odds, even when grappling the tarrasque or similarly built brute creatures"
Yeah, you're probably right. I'll cut out the level-based part.



I personally think the immediate interrupt full attack is unneeded. You're already giving a full attack on AoOs. The Fighter has access to the feats to make literally anything provoke an AoO, which will be extremely powerful on this fighter. Another full attack per round is really really not needed. Plus you already have the +4 size category capstone.
You may be right, but I don't think that Colossus is a great capstone by itself, seeing as how it's just an improvement of an existing ability. Hmm...


A couple random suggestions:
-Something that lets you reassign combat pool feats mid combat at higher levels. Maybe start as a move action, upgrade to swift/immediate actions. Sure you can mimick your opponent, but at higher levels you should get the ability to counter your opponents.
That's a clever idea...


-Something that negates all AoOs incurred from using combat maneuvers. Basically Improved _____ without the +4 bonus and special extra effect. You may already have something like this that I missed, but I didn't see it and it seems like it would fit excellently.
Flow of Battle, level 14.


-Make Armor Mastery strength based. I know you want to push an int based fighter, but you've already got a lot of int bonuses packed into early levels, and having strength reduce ACP makes a lot more sense than intelligence.
...yeah, that makes sense.


-The My Blade is My Brother progression seems really awkward. You have 6 abilities there, why not make them come in a predictable progression, at 1/4/8/12/16/20 rather than sometimes 2 levels later sometimes 4 levels later like it currently is? I know it parts from where the feats currently come online, but since you're giving it for free it can afford to be a little later in some places. Alternatively you can make it 1/3/6/9/12/15 if you want it earlier.
I was granting them at the abilities you normally qualified for, but you're right. The progression does get silly.

Thanks for the feedback! :smallsmile:

[Seerow]

Flow of Battle, level 14.


Ah yeah, I saw that and interpreted it as meaning from movement, not sure why it translated to that in my head.


As an aside, since the 14th level fighter doesn't provoke AoOs from anything, this little tidbit is probably unneccessary:


At 18th level, a fighter may move up to his speed as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity.

[Just to Browse]

This fighter seems to be an awful lot of numbers. He has the weapon spec chain, AB & AC for a knowledge check, AB & AC equal to IntMod, he's given free feats for more number stacking, reduced armor penalties, and numbers for a pseudo-size. This stops at level 5, but the passives don't stop until one ability at 18th level.

You've made the fighter problem into the barbarian problem--the fighter is now a bunch of passives, who just stacks bonuses and goes to town with full attacks. That's nice, but it really just seems like more of an NPC class than anything else...

[Yitzi]

You've made the fighter problem into the barbarian problem--the fighter is now a bunch of passives, who just stacks bonuses and goes to town with full attacks. That's nice, but it really just seems like more of an NPC class than anything else...

No, the feat retraining abilities give him quite a bit of strategic element.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, the feat retraining abilities give him quite a bit of strategic element.

This. Especially once you start being able to alter them turn-to-turn. There's also an element of tactical movement with the Roving Warrior/Knight/Lord line of abilities, especially when combined with Strike of Denial.

I may 'brew up some more fighter-only feats that give even more combat options. We'll see.

[bobthe6th]

might want to make the player create feat sets,so they don't stop combat for an hour while they grab 6 splat books and scribble...

[Seerow]

might want to make the player create feat sets,so they don't stop combat for an hour while they grab 6 splat books and scribble...

This is what I did in my old fighter fix. The fighter would have 4 different feat sets he could swap between as a swift action.

[Grod_The_Giant]

might want to make the player create feat sets,so they don't stop combat for an hour while they grab 6 splat books and scribble...

I don't want to limit him too much, but I'll make a note with some hints for making it go faster.

[Just to Browse]

No, the feat retraining abilities give him quite a bit of strategic element.

Between combats, yes. In combats? Not even a little bit. You'll build a trip fighter outside of combat, and then spend your combat tripping. Or you'll build a dual-wielding fighter outside of combat, and then spend your combat full attacking with two weapons. He's a bit of planning outside of combat, assuming you know what you're going up against, but he's a large stack of numbers in combat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Between combats, yes. In combats? Not even a little bit. You'll build a trip fighter outside of combat, and then spend your combat tripping. Or you'll build a dual-wielding fighter outside of combat, and then spend your combat full attacking with two weapons. He's a bit of planning outside of combat, assuming you know what you're going up against, but he's a large stack of numbers in combat.

See: Imitative/Adaptive/Flowing/Freeform style.

If you have any suggestions for more active abilities, I'd love to hear them. But the problem I ran into when coming up with class features was that, in most ways, the warblade does it better. Any kind of active, recharging combat trick would invite direct comparison to the excellent ToB material, and limited use abilities defeat the entire purpose of the fighter.

[gkathellar]

I like both of these fixes a lot (although Conan didn't rage, and actually fits the fighter class better). And I wouldn't worry about the fighter's variety of options. He's going to be fantastic at all combat maneuvers all the time, and he'll be able to switch around his feats. All very good.

[Yitzi]

Between combats, yes. In combats? Not even a little bit.

So his versatility is more like that of a wizard than that of a sorcerer (well, at least at first; Imitative Style and Adaptive Style later give him elements of both.) If feats were as powerful as spells, he'd be tier 1 rather than tier 2. Since they aren't, he's only tier 3; still pretty good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

gkathellar, Yitzi, thanks for defending my fighter. I'm glad you like it.

I also just posted a martial version of the barbarian, if anyone's interested.

[Just to Browse]

See: Imitative/Adaptive/Flowing/Freeform style.The fighter's one active ability is to change his passive abilities for the rest of combat. He doesn't even get to pick and choose effective ones until halfway through the level progression (and let me point out that not very many games go 10+).


If you have any suggestions for more active abilities, I'd love to hear them. But the problem I ran into when coming up with class features was that, in most ways, the warblade does it better. Any kind of active, recharging combat trick would invite direct comparison to the excellent ToB material, and limited use abilities defeat the entire purpose of the fighter.Well, you seem to want this guy to be really good with weapons and be good at analyzing things and perhaps teamwork? I would give him non-numerical bonuses to combat maneuvers--bullrushing someone sideways, disarming and getting an AoO, performing covering fire (make an attack and designate one ally; if it's higher than their AC, they can use that as their AC against one attack until your next turn), and among all of those, allowing for swift actions that provide AoE morale bonuses or remove status penalties. That way in combat, he uses the same basic rules, but gets active bonuses (so he's not just stacking numbers and he has a variety of options), and you actually have to consider your swift actions instead of just picking the strongest opponent and saying "I want his feats, study for 2 rounds".

Sure the warblade has it, but dropping ideas on that is like saying "White Raven gives morale bonuses, bards might as well play swordsages".


So his versatility is more like that of a wizard than that of a sorcerer (well, at least at first; Imitative Style and Adaptive Style later give him elements of both.) If feats were as powerful as spells, he'd be tier 1 rather than tier 2. Since they aren't, he's only tier 3; still pretty good.Wizards have lots of spells that they prepare, and then hold at their disposal. A given wizard could choose between AoE damage (fireball), a single target debuff (slow), or an ally buff (fly) and more every single round. He is flexible, I'm not denying that, but the problem still persists that the class is a glossy table of mostly passive benefits. Imitative Style is nice, but that's one (one) ability, and you basically just toggle it in combat against a foe you think would be awesome to imitate--after that, you're just burning swift actions for 1-5 rounds, and then using the passive feats you got again.

[Yitzi]

gkathellar, Yitzi, thanks for defending my fighter. I'm glad you like it.

I wouldn't go that far; it still puts far more focus on action economy than I would like (I believe the proper fix for action economy isn't to make nobody have an advantage in action economy, but rather to make action economy be no more important than other features such as offensive or defensive capability). But the criticism by Just To Browse is just plain wrong.


The fighter's one active ability is to change his passive abilities

Passive abilities? I wouldn't call combat maneuver feats passive abilities.


He doesn't even get to pick and choose effective ones until halfway through the level progression (and let me point out that not very many games go 10+).

Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Combat Expertise...all these can be quite effective, and are available well before level 10. Yes, the fix would probably be improved by some more interesting and effective (and situational) feats, but even without them the fighter fix should be workable.


Well, you seem to want this guy to be really good with weapons and be good at analyzing things and perhaps teamwork? I would give him non-numerical bonuses to combat maneuvers--bullrushing someone sideways, disarming and getting an AoO, performing covering fire (make an attack and designate one ally; if it's higher than their AC, they can use that as their AC against one attack until your next turn), and among all of those, allowing for swift actions that provide AoE morale bonuses or remove status penalties.

Those are some interesting ideas for new feats.


and you actually have to consider your swift actions

Swift actions shouldn't be the key to any class; standard actions should play that role.


Wizards have lots of spells that they prepare, and then hold at their disposal. A given wizard could choose between AoE damage (fireball), a single target debuff (slow), or an ally buff (fly) and more every single round. He is flexible, I'm not denying that, but the problem still persists that the class is a glossy table of mostly passive benefits.

The active benefits are indeed not to be found in the class description, but rather in the list of feats.

[gkathellar]

The fighter's one active ability is to change his passive abilities for the rest of combat.

Unless the feats he chooses to use aren't passive abilities. Various tactical feats, Martial Study, etc. Part of the appeal here is that the fighter can switch up his build to a more active or passive model as necessary.

And I would say that while, yes, everyone has combat maneuvers, the fighter being uniquely good at them makes them a kind of active ability for him.


Sure the warblade has it, but dropping ideas on that is like saying "White Raven gives morale bonuses, bards might as well play swordsages".

Swordsages don't get White Raven. :smalltongue:

[Just to Browse]

Passive abilities? I wouldn't call combat maneuver feats passive abilities.Like Martial Study? You're getting that three times at 1/2 your class level. So you might be OK at the beginning with a strike or something, but after that you're picking up boosts. And those boosts are going to be "do I need an AC bonus right now? Activate my AC bonus ability." or "Do I want to move and full attack? Activate my boost and jump, then full attack." They will be very simplistic, and at higher levels those feats will in fact be sub-par to other feats which provide more level-appropriate benefits.


Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Combat Expertise...all these can be quite effective, and are available well before level 10. Yes, the fix would probably be improved by some more interesting and effective (and situational) feats, but even without them the fighter fix should be workable.Passive, pretty much passive (if there's a scarier guy with an arrow trained on you, save it. If not, use it now), and mostly passive. Those are effective, but feats are very much based on passive bonuses. Your examples only prove this.


Swift actions shouldn't be the key to any class; standard actions should play that role.... I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I was saying that there was more thinking involved when you have to juggle swift actions, and you're saying that it's bad to have a class based all around swift actions? :smallconfused:

Well, sure, I agree. But that's not the topic at hand.


The active benefits are indeed not to be found in the class description, but rather in the list of feats.Most feats will be passive, or very formulaic, making this class a large compilation of passive things and a couple formulaic things. The problem stands.


Unless the feats he chooses to use aren't passive abilities. Various tactical feats, Martial Study, etc. Part of the appeal here is that the fighter can switch up his build to a more active or passive model as necessary.Right, those tactical feats that come on line around levels 6-12? See my qualm about high-level play, and my response to Yitzi about martial study's ineffectiveness at providing truly active abilities.


And I would say that while, yes, everyone has combat maneuvers, the fighter being uniquely good at them makes them a kind of active ability for him.The fighter will be a bunch of feats, which means he'll probably build trip fighter, TWF fighter, bullrush fighter, disarm/sunder fighter, etc. He'll build it really fast, and then he'll be really good at saying "I run into combat and use my [schtick] on opponent X." And he will do that every round. And it will not be interesting.

Now that is hyperbole, but the point remains. This class is a faster way of getting the same fighter with more numbers. Sure, it'll work fine, and I could see myself having fun pouring over feats and searching up monsters, but I want to be able to do something more than the equivalent of "I boost and then stab the monster" every turn.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I understand where you're coming from-- although I think you are underestimating the tactical value of in-battle feat retraining-- and I will be posting a set of feats that provide more interesting and active abilities, largely relating to basic combat maneuvers, as soon as I have some spare time.

Why feats instead of new class features? A couple reasons. It is, obviously, easier to implement. It better fits with the original concept of the fighter, something that I strive to do with my homebrew fixes. It allows for maximum customization and flexibility, another element that I've made a touchstone of my fix. It adds modularity to the fix-- some people might prefer to stick to existing feats, while others might prefer to add the feats to another fix they prefer.

[NeoSeraphi]

I find it ironic that your martial barbarian can only use White Raven maneuvers (key skill: Diplomacy) while raging.

[Amechra]

No it isn't; that's just this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwp60eYuie0).

And I do have to ask; does Imitative Style limit itself to Fighter feats?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I find it ironic that your martial barbarian can only use White Raven maneuvers (key skill: Diplomacy) while raging.
Hahaha, true. Forgot about that part.


And I do have to ask; does Imitative Style limit itself to Fighter feats?
No-- any feat that the fighter qualifies for is a valid target.

[Yitzi]

Like Martial Study?

Not sure what that is. I was referring to things like Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.


Passive

How is grappling passive? Yes, technically Improved Grapple is just a "passive" boost to something you could do anyway, but because it so often makes what was not an option into an option, it's effectively an active ability.


pretty much passive (if there's a scarier guy with an arrow trained on you, save it. If not, use it now)

Yes, that one is more passive; I was pointing out that he can get effective abilities before level 10.


and mostly passive.

If Combat Expertise is mostly passive, then what isn't? Each round, you have to decide how to assign your BAB between AC and attack bonus.


... I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I was saying that there was more thinking involved when you have to juggle swift actions, and you're saying that it's bad to have a class based all around swift actions? :smallconfused:

The main thinking should be a question of what to do with your standard action; the swift action should be a minor boost at most.


Most feats will be passive, or very formulaic

Perhaps you'd better define what you mean by "passive".


The fighter will be a bunch of feats, which means he'll probably build trip fighter, TWF fighter, bullrush fighter, disarm/sunder fighter, etc. He'll build it really fast, and then he'll be really good at saying "I run into combat and use my [schtick] on opponent X." And he will do that every round. And it will not be interesting.

Or he will build something with a few options, and each round decide which one to use, depending on the situation.


but I want to be able to do something more than the equivalent of "I boost and then stab the monster" every turn.

And why can't a fighter be built for multiple options?

[Seerow]

The question is, with this fighter, why would you want to build for multiple options?


As a swift action you can switch half your int mod in feats. At high level that's at least 2, maybe as many as 4 or 5. So say it's a median number and go with 3. That's 3 feats you can change on the fly as a swift action. That's a pretty huge deal that you are ignoring.

Remember how ToB's main strength isn't they're stronger than fighters, but they have more tricks than fighters, so they're made useless less often? Well now the Fighter pulls tricks out of a hat like nobody else.b All those situational feats that might come up once a session that nobody takes because it's a waste even for a fighter? The fighter can now pull them out when they're relevant. He can afford to have all of the mounted combat feats in the game when he has access to a mount, because once that mount dies, or he goes somewhere the mount can't follow, he can swap feats to something else. In a long chase he can pull out feats like dash endurance or run that nobody in their right mind would normally take, because once he's caught up with the enemy, he can get rid of them again. If he suddenly gets caught without a weapon, he is now a master in unarmed combat, or he can now disarm one of his enemies, and turn it against them with more skill than they had. If it's a fight where he's not going to be able to close into melee, he can realign himself and be a top notch archer instead.

Yes, at any given instant what he has might be passive, but the whole point is he can change what he has at any given moment. This is enough to keep him interesting and from feeling like he's doing the same thing every combat forever. Meanwhile his extra attacks, mobility, and other bonuses keep him from falling behind as he would if the flexibility of feats was ALL he got.




Besides all of that, the feats he swaps out for can be ToB feats/maneuvers. You say low level maneuvers are useless? I say with maneuvers a fighter 20 can access, he is able to teleport as a move action, jump as a swift action, boost his damage, prevent enemies from taking 5ft steps within his reach, grant allies (or himself depending on reading) extra actions, remove status effects, replace saving throws and several other things with concentration checks, ignore DR/hardness on anything... and that's just off the top of my head cool things lower level maneuvers can do. Sure, he won't be using heal, or time stands still, but he can have any 3 ToB maneuvers and any ToB stance, up to half his level, and unlike any other non-ToB character (or even better than most ToB characters) he can switch them to suit his needs. That is a pretty huge deal.

[Yitzi]

The question is, with this fighter, why would you want to build for multiple options?

Until you can switch feats as a swift action (and I presume that's what Just to Browse is referring to, as otherwise his objection is completely nonsensical because the fighter has so many active options through the associated feats), because sometimes you need more than one in a battle.

In either case, the fighter gets a lot of active options; the only difference from wizard is that whereas the wizard's options are once removed from direct class features (the class feature is spellcasting, the actual spells are once removed), the fighter's are twice removed (the class feature is switching feats, the feats themselves are once removed, the options granted by the feats are twice removed.)

[Just to Browse]

Yitzi, I'm not sure if you're deliberately strawmanning me or just not getting the point, but arguing with you requires me to constantly redefine things for you, and it's very frustrating. I'll just respond to the rest of the posters, infer what you will.

@ Seerow and Grod: I can agree on the tactical benefits of this class. I can agree on the interest provided in micromanaging feats, and the shuffling of fighter builds, but my point is that once you enter combat, this class will probably do 1 thing. If you built a trip fighter, he will trip. If you built a grapple fighter, he will grapple. All those "flexible" feats will be poured into one schtick outside of combat, and then the fighter will spam that schtick while trying to attain maximum bonuses on his knowledge check. Every time a fight rolls around, the choices will be "effectively use the same strategy each turn" or "ineffectively use something different". I've built fighters, you've built fighters, and we know that's what fighters do.

@ Grod: Active feats will make me happy, especially if they're in the same thread.

@ Seerow: I'm not sure what level you play at, and what part of the class you're looking at, but the fighter can't just go "TIME FOR TEH FEAT SWITCH NAO" as a swift action and them get what he wants until level 15, and because he has to stab things and not get stabbed, Intelligence is 3rd on his list (and with a poor Reflex and that whole AC things, it also competes with dex for a lower-level melee fighter, which is where people play). So the fighter might have 1 feat to retrain (14 Int), maybe 2 if he's got a high point buy and great items.

The feat-retraining ability that people actually care about (read: at level 5) involves waiting 5-IntMod rounds, which might be the entire combat, and doesn't let him take anything but a single target's feats (those are coming off monsters in the MM: enjoy your Toughness and Alertness feats). So basically he burns a swift action -*cough*-passively-*cough*- every turn for 3-4 rounds, and when combat is almost over, he can take one or two potentially-useful feats, assuming he's not trying to replicate an NPC whom the DM has handwaved away the feats for. What I'm saying here is that no, I would not be interested in this ability when the dice hit the table.

At level 10, he fighter can retrain probably 1 feat (Perhaps 2, since he'll panickingly grab +Int bonuses) as a move action, once per round, which means he's probably taking away one or two semi-useful floating feat, or the top feat in his feat chain, and replacing it with something that he hopes might be more useful. This is nice, and I'm entertained by the prospect of taking a move action to acquire a maneuver, then use a boost and attack, every round (That is assuming that the feat would refresh any cooldowns. If it does, you could do this every round with the same boost.).

And then you mentioned Martial Study again, which is nice but not fantastic. At low levels, the boosts will be awesome, and at high levels, they'll be OK. But he's using those once per combat (unless he plans on using the move-boost-attack schtick outlined above), and most of them will be just surrogates for movement. The 2-handed-greatsword fighter will want to run into places and full attack, or charge and attack if not allowed to full attack. Making a swift action jump check allows him to run in and full attack on the first round, but the degree to which it changes his tactics is literally nil. Again, boring I say. I am still bored.

[Seerow]

Re: Level

At level 5, the Fighter is still doing all right with no retraining at all at this point. But he can retrain between combats when he knows a situation is coming up where it might be useful. It's fine. Like Yitzi described, it's more like a Wizard than a Sorcerer. You get to pick the right tool for the job as long as you have a few minutes to prepare.

The move action retraining is honestly fast enough to get by and give you mid-encounter diversity. You shouldn't need more than 1-2 floating feats in combat. That's enough to take you from terrible at a combat style to decent at it. It's enough to give you a clutch maneuver you didn't have before and turn a fight.



At worst, the fighter is a mid tier 4 and doesn't hit tier 3 until level 10. But if at level 10 when you can actively retrain feats midcombat, it should be easily tier 3. I mean he effectively at that point doubles as an initiator of half his level with every maneuver and stance ever known. He can use all of the combat maneuvers with hefty bonuses on them, letting them continue to be relevant options even into high levels.

Oh and besides, this Fighter has 6+int skillpoints, and good reason to focus heavily on Int as either a primary or secondary attribute.

And I'm going to reitterate that you underestimate the utility of low-mid level maneuvers/stances. Yes, you're getting them later than a ToB character. You're still getting solid reusable utility that you can swap on a whim. Some of the best maneuvers (such as WRT) come online as early as level 10 for the Fighter (coincidentally the same time he gets his move action retraining). Grod could make the Fighter count as a higher initiator level, but that would probably break the Fighter right in half, rather than make it more interesting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hey, look! New feats, as promised! (also posted in the Fighter section)

Crushing Tackle
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: If you successfully Bull Rush a foe into a solid object, deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 5 feet he would have been pushed normally, plus twice your Strength modifier.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Giant Rush
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: When you win a Bull Rush attempt, you may push your foe the full distance without having to move with him.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Doomhammer
Prerequisite:Strength 15, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Any bludgeoning weapon)
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single melee attack with a blunt weapon, at a -2 penalty. If your attack hits, deal damage as normal and make a bull rush attempt as a free action, without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Special: You may combine this feat with the power attack feat. For every -1 penalty you take to attack, gain a +1 bonus on the Strength check for the Bull Rush attempt (+2 for two-handed weapons). This bonus replaces the bonus damage from using power attack. A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Brutal Disarm
Prerequisite: Improved Disarm
Benefit: Make a disarm attempt as normal. If you have enough arms free to wield the target's weapon, you may grab it and make an immediate melee attack, taking the normal penalties for wielding a weapon in your off hand but catching your opponent flat-footed.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Shield Pull
Prerequisite: Improved Disarm
Benefit: You may remove a target's shield with a successful disarm attempt, instead of his weapon. The target gets a +4 bonus to resist being de-shielded.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Lightning Disarm
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm
Benefit: After a successful disarm attempt, you may immediately make a melee attack.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Cunning Feint
Prerequisite: Improved Feint, Intelligence 15
Benefit: Add your Intelligence modifier to Bluff checks made to feint in combat. In addition, if wielding a weapon to which you could normally apply the benefits of the weapon finesse feat, you may feint as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Brutal Overrun
Prerequisite: Improved Overrun
Benefit: You may make an attack of opportunity against any opponent knocked prone by an ovverrun attempt.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Chokehold
Prerequisite: Improved Grapple
Benefit: Once you have successfully initiated a grapple, you may deal 2d6+Strength modifier lethal damage every round with a successful grapple check.
Normal: Damaging an opponent in a grapple deals 1d3+Strength modifier nonlethal damage.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Fast Grab
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with an unarmed strike, you deal normal damage, and may immediately attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. However, you suffer a -4 penalty on the first grapple check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Frogmarch
Prerequisite: Improved Grapple, Strength 15
Benefit: When attempting to move during a grapple, you may move up to your full speed with a successful grapple check.
Normal: You may move up to half your speed with a successful grapple check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Side Throw
Prerequisite: Strength 15, Improved Grapple
Benefit: As a standard action, make a grapple check against one foe within melee range. If you win the check, you may immediately make a bull rush attempt against that foe. You do not provoke any attacks of opportunity for the bull rush, and you do not need to move along with your foe to throw him the full distance. After being moved, your foe must make a Reflex save (DC=the difference between your Bull Rush checks) or be knocked prone.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Break on Through
Prerequisite: Improved Sunder, Strength 15
Benefit: If you miss an opponent in melee combat by an amount equal to or less than your Strength modifier, you may make a sunder attempt against their weapon or armor as a free action. If you destroy it, you deal them melee damage as though you had hit them with the initial attack.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Shield Cover
Prerequisite: Shield Specialization (Any)
Benefit: As a swift action, you may transfer the shield bonus from your shield to an adjacent ally until the beginning of your next turn. If either of you moves or is forced to move so that you are no longer adjacent, the benefit is lost.
Special: If your natural reach (ie, from size) is more than five feet, you may extend the benefit of this feat to any one ally within your reach. A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Watch my Back
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: When you fight defensively, use the total defense option, the combat expertise feat, or any other ability where you sacrifice offensive accuracy for defense, you may transfer the defensive bonus to an ally within your reach. The bonus only lasts as long as you are using the ability, and your ally is within your reach.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Forced Movement
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: As a swift action, you may force an opponent to move. On his next turn, if the target of this ability does not move at least five feet, he provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 9 ranks
Benefit: You may attempt to demoralize an opponent (see the Intimidate skill for details) in combat as a move action. In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on this check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Mass Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 12 ranks, Staredown
Benefit: As a standard action, you may attempt to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single Intimidate check.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Swift Staredown
Prerequisite: Intimidate 15 ranks, Staredown
Benefit: You may attempt to demoralize an opponent (see the Intimidate skill for details) in combat as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Perfect Terror
Prerequisite: Intimidate 19 ranks, Staredown, Mass Staredown
Benefit: After your first successful attack in combat, opponents within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ level + your Charisma modifier) or become shaken for 4d6 rounds. If they fail the save by five or more, they become frightened for 4d6 rounds instead, and if they fail their save by ten or more, they become panicked for 4d6 rounds instead.
Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Added another five new feats, include a four-feat series that basically duplicates the CW Samurai. Only, you know, better.

Thoughts?

[Major_Muffin]

I love the "bite yourself" ability, I can imagine this really buff, stupid barbarian grappling a poor wizard going "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself", even worse, I can imagine him doing it with the wizards severed arm.
HAHAHAHAHA

[gkathellar]

New feats look generally good. I think highly situational but powerful feats like that are generally better when the fighter can prepare his feats.

[bcool999]

The language could be clearer on Juggernaut strength is says you may add your constitution modifier to all saves... the words add and all could mean add your constitution modifier to your fort saves that already benefit from constitution (though that would be silly) maybe replace your ability modifier for your con modifier on all saves or just specify reflex and will saves?

Also where is the disarming strike ability that is listed as a prerequisite for Heir of Beowulf? Has it been deleted from everywhere but that prerequisite list?

Also would the Barbarian's Mettle stack with the Fighter's Mettle to get improved Mettle?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wow, thread necromancy. Ok, then.


The language could be clearer on Juggernaut strength is says you may add your constitution modifier to all saves... the words add and all could mean add your constitution modifier to your fort saves that already benefit from constitution (though that would be silly) maybe replace your ability modifier for your con modifier on all saves or just specify reflex and will saves?
No, I think it was +Con to everything, including double Con to Fort saves. He is a barbarian, after all.


Also where is the disarming strike ability that is listed as a prerequisite for Heir of Beowulf? Has it been deleted from everywhere but that prerequisite list?
My bad, Disarming Rage.


Also would the Barbarian's Mettle stack with the Fighter's Mettle to get improved Mettle?
No.

[Grimsage Matt]

I just have one thing to say about the Barbarian Fix you did.

It is melee prefection when added in a gesalt to this Troll Improved Monster class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.0).

I've done some builds, played a few games, and all I'm saying is that they snyc up so well its like a match made in heaven.

So I would like to thank you.

I will vote for this class if it ever needs voting on for most awesome melee fix.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I just have one thing to say about the Barbarian Fix you did.

It is melee prefection when added in a gesalt to this Troll Improved Monster class (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2632.0).

I've done some builds, played a few games, and all I'm saying is that they snyc up so well its like a match made in heaven.

So I would like to thank you.

I will vote for this class if it ever needs voting on for most awesome melee fix.
Glad you like it! All the barbarian stuff working out OK?

[Grimsage Matt]

Both sides make each other shine really. Troll gives the STR and CON boosts, regeneration, and reach. And the abillity to use Large Two Handed Greatswords. Rage boosts natural armor, and as the rage 'tiers up', it stops becoming a penalty and you get a net bonus to AC.

Just need to ask a question. Would it be possible to combine Spining Strike and Power Strikes? Reason being, 3d6+16 plus 10d6 damage to everything in a 10ft natural reach... I stop being a single target butcher and become a army killer.

[Yitzi]

Both sides make each other shine really. Troll gives the STR and CON boosts, regeneration, and reach. And the abillity to use Large Two Handed Greatswords. Rage boosts natural armor, and as the rage 'tiers up', it stops becoming a penalty and you get a net bonus to AC.

And of course let's not forget that if a troll rages to get extra HP (and he needs the extra HP) and then after he kills the enemy the rage ends and he loses those HP, he's not dead, just unconscious for a few seconds.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just need to ask a question. Would it be possible to combine Spining Strike and Power Strikes? Reason being, 3d6+16 plus 10d6 damage to everything in a 10ft natural reach... I stop being a single target butcher and become a army killer.
Power Strike is nothing more than upgraded power attack, so... yup!

...though looking back, the Power Strike bonus is perhaps too high with two-handed weapons... maybe 1d8 or 1d10 per -1 penalty...

[Grimsage Matt]

Plus the Rage increases the amount and uses of the Trolls Shrug it Off. Which is awesome.

And for Power Strikes, all it does is allow a melee character to use power attack to approch the level of a caster, and even then its subject to the thousand and one ways to block/reduce melee attacks.

Besides, instead of the tome of battle, this would be the tome of rage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Plus the Rage increases the amount and uses of the Trolls Shrug it Off. Which is awesome.

And for Power Strikes, all it does is allow a melee character to use power attack to approch the level of a caster, and even then its subject to the thousand and one ways to block/reduce melee attacks.

Besides, instead of the tome of battle, this would be the tome of rage.
It was already possible to outdamage (most) casters with pounce + leap attack. Power Strike was around that level with a one-handed weapon (an average of 3.5 damage per point of penalty) and way above with a two-hander. I did cut it back down to size somewhat.

[Yakk]

Level 18: You gain a Brute Power. The same thing you got at level 2. But you picked the best one at level 2, so now you get something worse at level 18 than you got at level 2.

Ok ok, some abilities have level requirements.

... Prerequisite: Crushing Strike, Shattering Strike Really? Do you really need feat trees?

Instead, what you you made each Brute Power auto-scale. So Crushing Strike starts including Walls Must Die.

Like Crushing Strike: Blah blah blah
Level 5: Also...
Level 10: Also...
Level 15: Also...
Level 20: Also...

That starts giving your Barbarian quadratic amounts of toys to play with, and keeps the "theme" chunks whereby a Barbarian that can bash through walls of force can also bash through doors (because "bash doors" is the level 1 ability, and "wall of force" is the level 10 ability).

In short, stop the upgraditus: every ability should be awesome, and if it is too strong to get at level 1, just make it an auto-upgrade at the level where you think you should get it.

DR: Your DR remains at roughly 4% of your max HP. Much like Brute Power, gaining 1 DR/4 levels is worth a single class feature slot (at the level where you first got it).

Rage: I'd boost the barbarians base DR slightly, then say that Rage doubles it. This both boosts your default DR, and reduces the number of numbers the player has to copy from the class. Or triple default DR if you want rage-DR to be that much higher than non-rage DR.

Juggernaut Strength: How about just granting a bonus to all saves equal to his Con modifier while raging? :) And... half that bonus when not raging.

That is about as good, but doesn't make your Dex and Wis pointless.

Shrug it Off: I'd strip the Con modifier. Instead, make it 1 time per day for every 2 Barbarian levels. Remove "per attack" restriction -- just "per condition" (an attack that applies two conditions seems fair game?), or have it apply to every condition caused by a given attack? Maybe force its use during a Rage, but give bonus uses equal to your Con modifier per rage?

[bcool999]

I think Mighty Thews needs to be toned down a little. If I am reading it right it gives a +10 to climb jump and swim checks at level 2 (if you choose it). Maybe say the bonus to climb jump and swim is fast movement bonus divided by 5 (that way the bonus is +2 then +3 and so on) otherwise the skills would be a bit ridiculous IMHO.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In short, stop the upgraditus: every ability should be awesome, and if it is too strong to get at level 1, just make it an auto-upgrade at the level where you think you should get it.
I get what you're saying. I do. I just... I dunno. The issue is that not every Brute Power has an nice, obvious upgrade path like Crushing Strike -> Shattering Strike -> Walls Must Die. I could write more, but what's the logical next step of Bleeding Strike?


DR: Your DR remains at roughly 4% of your max HP. Much like Brute Power, gaining 1 DR/4 levels is worth a single class feature slot (at the level where you first got it).
Not sure what you're saying here...


Rage: I'd boost the barbarians base DR slightly, then say that Rage doubles it. This both boosts your default DR, and reduces the number of numbers the player has to copy from the class. Or triple default DR if you want rage-DR to be that much higher than non-rage DR.
I kind of did-- when raging, you gain bonus DR equal to the strength bonus. DR 10 at level 10 is nothing to be sneezed at, my friend.


Juggernaut Strength: How about just granting a bonus to all saves equal to his Con modifier while raging? :) And... half that bonus when not raging.

That is about as good, but doesn't make your Dex and Wis pointless.
I went back and forth on whether to add or replace them. I like this solution, though-- it feels like a nice compromise.


Shrug it Off: I'd strip the Con modifier. Instead, make it 1 time per day for every 2 Barbarian levels. Remove "per attack" restriction -- just "per condition" (an attack that applies two conditions seems fair game?), or have it apply to every condition caused by a given attack? Maybe force its use during a Rage, but give bonus uses equal to your Con modifier per rage?
I like con times/day, because it offers an elegant way to grant extra uses in a rage.


I think Mighty Thews needs to be toned down a little. If I am reading it right it gives a +10 to climb jump and swim checks at level 2 (if you choose it). Maybe say the bonus to climb jump and swim is fast movement bonus divided by 5 (that way the bonus is +2 then +3 and so on) otherwise the skills would be a bit ridiculous IMHO.
No, you're reading it right. The bonus is large, and it's supposed to be. Do you know what we call a +30 to Jump checks? A level 1 spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/jump.htm) (Or being born a thri-keen). +30 to Swim? Arguably worse than a level 2 spell (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/swim--569/). +30 to Climb checks? Worse than a level 2 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm). And these are the bonuses at 20th level. If anything, they're low.

[Yitzi]

I get what you're saying. I do. I just... I dunno. The issue is that not every Brute Power has an nice, obvious upgrade path like Crushing Strike -> Shattering Strike -> Walls Must Die. I could write more, but what's the logical next step of Bleeding Strike?

As something that does large amounts of CON damage, I'd say that Bleeding Strike is the high-level version; a lower-level version would either do damage over time but no CON damage (like a bat swarm's wounding ability), or do 1 CON damage (like a Wounding weapon.)

[Yakk]

Bleeding Strike: Ongoing damage, Ongoing ability damage, Maybe drain. Maybe more stats (str dex and con).

It could include other kinds of crippling attacks -- reducing movement speed, attack penalties, stunning, etc.

We could take the Bleed bit and tie it to a Bloodlust chain -- start granting the Barbarian temporary HP when they deal damage. Or deal double damage on wounded targets (half HP or less).

You could grant bonuses on targets who are bleeding, like extending your crit range or auto-confirming.

Maybe a save-or-die attack. Heck, an attack that causes the target to save-or-die (or save-or-lose) each round for strength modifier rounds for a nicely evil one.