Triple 9 Builds?

[Anecronwashere]

What Triple9 Gestalt Builds (Psi, Arc, Div) are good at all levels? Especially in a 2-party group with a Diplomancer?

Also, whats the best Melee-fighting Diplomancer build?

I'm thinking of going a Cerebremancer/PsiThuerge/ArcThuerge straight build with Practised Spellcaster for any lost levels for the Triple9 and a Rogue/Swordsage for the Diplomancer, maybe Unarmed Swordsage.

it's for a "D&D becomes Real" campaign so it's fast-leveling and likely low/no Magic Items.

We start as Human so no racial stuff unfortunately

[Feralventas]

What Triple9 Gestalt Builds (Psi, Arc, Div) are good at all levels? Especially in a 2-party group with a Diplomancer?

Also, whats the best Melee-fighting Diplomancer build?

I'm thinking of going a Cerebremancer/PsiThuerge/ArcThuerge straight build with Practised Spellcaster for any lost levels for the Triple9 and a Rogue/Swordsage for the Diplomancer, maybe Unarmed Swordsage.

it's for a "D&D becomes Real" campaign so it's fast-leveling and likely low/no Magic Items.

We start as Human so no racial stuff unfortunately

My god this is an absurdly high-power campaign, but I digress. Any class that gets 9th level spells is going to be powerful at all of its levels, so long as you have the right spell load-out. Take a look at the Guide to Playing God and Batman Wizard builds for reference.

If you're going Psionic, Arcane, and Divine, I'd suggest you grab the feat that allows you to switch the primary 'casting stat for one class and switch your Divine caster to Int, grab Psion or Erudite (Int) and stack on Wizard (Int) so that your Cleric (int) spells aren't impeeded.

If you want a measure of flavor to each aspect, I'd suggest Beguiler (PHB2, Cha) Wilder (Expanded Psionics, Cha) and Favored Soul (Complete divine, Cha). The gods like you, you've spent time in a specialzied school of magic, and you can go mind-hulk for power when you need to.

If you're going to Gestalt, there's really no need for the dual-progression classes, since you'll get full progression with them anyway. If you meant 3-class Multi-Class character, then you'll probably want to go 3 levels in each before hitting your Dual-Progression and accept a lack of damage capacity in favor of utility spells.

Bards can be optimized for melee combat and diplomancy like no one's business, though I would suggest some dips into Warblade for White-Raven maneuvers; it will have better BAB than a rogue/sword-sage and still have plenty of stealth capacity from Bard's skills and spells.

[legomaster00156]

If you're going Psionic, Arcane, and Divine, I'd suggest you grab the feat that allows you to switch the primary 'casting stat for one class and switch your Divine caster to Int, grab Psion or Erudite (Int) and stack on Wizard (Int) so that your Cleric (int) spells aren't impeeded.
There's seriously a feat that does that? That sounds a bit broken, given the circumstances. :smallconfused:

[Feralventas]

There's seriously a feat that does that? That sounds a bit broken, given the circumstances. :smallconfused:

Give me a few minutes and I'll see if I can't find where it went; saw someone copy-paste it earlier, but the name's still vague to my memory. I think it might be in Bastards and Bloodlines, which probably means 3.0.

Edit: Lost Tradition is the name of the Feat. It's in B&B, page 91.

Edit Again: Turns out B&B is not only non-core, it's 3rd party. My mistake.

[Little Brother]

Give me a few minutes and I'll see if I can't find where it went; saw someone copy-paste it earlier, but the name's still vague to my memory. I think it might be in Bastards and Bloodlines, which probably means 3.0.

Edit: Lost Tradition is the name of the Feat. It's in B&B, page 91.

Edit Again: Turns out B&B is not only non-core, it's 3rd party. My mistake.There's a DLCS feat that does this, I think. Probably in the same book as Dynamic Priest.

There's the strongest answer, IMO, but it's kinda sketch. An easier and less sketchy way is StP Favored Discipline(Magic) Erudite 9/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Erudite(Or other progression PrC) 1. StP Erudite can learn ANY arcane spell, and is otherwise pretty absurd, and with the Favored Discipline give you the arcane 9s. This way, you can get gems like Transcend Mortality, Giant Size, Arcane Spellsurge, and so on. You can weasel your way into getting Pact of Return for more fun with Transcend Mortality.

[Pilo]

Otherwise you could always use charisma-based classes:

Sorcerer or Warmage // Oracle(PF) or Shugenja // Wilder

Or intelligence-based ones :

Wizard or Wu-jen // Archivist // Psion or Erudite

[absolmorph]

Wizard 3//Archivist 3
Mystic Theurge 10//StP Erudite 10
Cerebremancer 7//Archivist +7 (or Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) 7//Wizard +7)
Final build:
Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Cerebremancer 7//Archivist 3/StP Erudite 10/Archivist +7
Take Academic Priest at first level. Trade your Wizard Scribe Scroll for an ACF.
Level 20 casting as a wizard and archivist, and level 17 manifesting as a (Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) Erudite. All based on Int. If you can squeeze in 3 levels of Factotum, you also will use Int for most of your skills.
Put in the work, and you can cast any spell or power. Ever.
Also, you don't even need to get the limit on prestige classes in gestalt waived.
Skills needed: Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Knowledge (Psionics) 6. By the way, all three of your base classes get them as class skills. There's really no reason for you not to get those.

For flavor: you're the bookworm of bookworms, poring through ancient tomes looking for new spells. When you start taking Erudite, you're learning how to unlock your psychic potential (and you're using it to learn even MORE! You nerd.). You also start poring through ancient tomes to find new powers.

Go get 'em, tiger.

EDIT: Well, that's embarrassing; I didn't finish my formatting.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A few notes: Unless you are going to break actions per round, you won't be able to use all of your toys at once, even with 3 sets of near full casters.

In gestalt, it helps to have an "active" part and a "passive" part to your build, simply so that you can benefit from everything you have at most levels.

absomorph's build is pretty simple and straight forward, in all honesty. If you can prestige class on both sides, check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) for the "most" you can get from leveling up.

[Rubik]

What about a StP erudite 20//archivist 20//druid 20?

That's essentially quad-9s. And all you need is Int, Wis, and a bit of Con.

[Morph Bark]

I'm starting to see so many of these, I wonder if they will become the new "Wizard" (or "Monk or "Fighter", but the opposite) thread.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm starting to see so many of these, I wonder if they will become the new "Wizard" (or "Monk or "Fighter", but the opposite) thread.

Well, Gestalt gets so very complicated between different rules (no "dual" PrCs/two PrCs at once, et al.).

I recall seeing a "Triple 9s" build without Gestalt that involved Ur-Priest, Fochlucan Lyrist, and either Wizard or Sublime Chorde that got 9th level spells in both Ur-Priest and the arcane side along with a +16 BAB by 20th.

The trick is getting it to work at the table, naturally.:smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

1) How many Gestalt sides do you have?
2) Does the DM allow dual-progression PrCs?
3) Does the DM allow you to take two PrCs at the same time?

[Anecronwashere]

There will likely not be much loot, what there is would have to be made by the other NPCs (with PC levels) and everyone (in the world) starts at lvl1.
So I need builds that don't rely on finding scrolls and are item-less (like Psion/Sorcerer/Cleric).


1) How many Gestalt sides do you have?
2) Does the DM allow dual-progression PrCs?
3) Does the DM allow you to take two PrCs at the same time?

1) 2
2) yes
3) yes

[FMArthur]

Just thought I'd pop in and issue a reminder that "Magic" is not a psionic discipline at all and StP erudite can only get you a 9 in psionics and an 8 in arcane casting. These threads seem to 'forget' it (ie repeatedly invent the nonexistant Magic discipline out of thin air) so often.

[Little Brother]

Just thought I'd pop in and issue a reminder that "Magic" is not a psionic discipline at all and StP erudite can only get you a 9 in psionics and an 8 in arcane casting. These threads seem to 'forget' it (ie repeatedly invent the nonexistant Magic discipline out of thin air) so often.They are clearly discipline powers, therefore they must be of a discipline. Therefore, there is a magic discipline, as they are all the same discipline. Nothing made up there.

[FMArthur]

They are clearly discipline powers, therefore they must be of a discipline. Therefore, there is a magic discipline, as they are all the same discipline. Nothing made up there.

No, that doesn't have to be true at all. You learn them as if they're discipline powers. That much is true, and it affects the way you have acquire and learn them.

You don't get to assign the spells to whatever discipline you like or make up a completely new catch-all discipline for unassigned discipline powers. Magic isn't a psionic discipline and is never referred to as such.

This is like finding an untagged feat somewhere and deciding that it is a Metamagic Feat because of its lack of a tag. If it doesn't have one, the only thing that is implied about it is that it just doesn't have one. Nothing else.

[absolmorph]

There will likely not be much loot, what there is would have to be made by the other NPCs (with PC levels) and everyone (in the world) starts at lvl1.
So I need builds that don't rely on finding scrolls and are item-less (like Psion/Sorcerer/Cleric).



1) 2
2) yes
3) yes
The build I provided needs a spell book and prayer book; you get spells from leveling as both a wizard and an archivist, and an erudite gets 2 powers/level.
Scrolls, powerstones and other psionics simply add more spells, so you can fill in those niche needs, like when you need shark repellent.

If you can't get your books, then point out to your DM that there is no mention of anything special about them aside from their use; any notebook should be usable, especially if you get one without lined pages.

Also, in response to the "Favored Discipline (Magic) Spell to Power Erudite" idea: you have one bonus feat from your class to replace at level 1. Favored Discipline and Spell to Power both replace it. You can't have both (nor would having a non-existent favored discipline be helpful).
I would've said that before if I'd noticed; I kind of mentally skipped that build as irrelevant because I could see it wasn't built for gestalt.


Also, to add to my previous post, since you can have multiple PrCs going, you can toss in some for extra fun. Here are a few (and modifications you can make to the build to accommodate them):

Loremaster: drop the last three levels of Mystic Theurge and take all 10 levels of Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge alongside it
Archmage: take Psychic Theurge, replace 5 levels of Wizard with this; note that High Arcana doesn't specify the need to sacrifice arcane spell slots, but if you take advantage of that be prepared to dodge books
Fatespinner: take Psychic Theurge, and replace 4 levels of Wizard with this. If you really want it, you can take the last level for the capstone, but you lose a caster level for it (though by that time you've already got 9th level spells)
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: take Psychic Theurge, and take this instead of any Wizard levels
Geomancer: gestalt negates one of the main downsides of this class; if you want all 10 levels, just drop the last 3 levels of Mystic Theurge. You can take it alongside Cerebremancer or Psychic Theurge. Actually, this is incredibly useful if you want to pick up armor without needing to get rid of ASF
Incantrix: as powerful as it normally is, and note that Instant Metamagic is like High Arcana in that it doesn't specify the spell cast needing to be arcane. If you take this, drop the last three levels of Mystic Theurge and take Psychic Theurge alongside it.
Dweomerkeeper: if you can pick up the Magic domain, then you should take this (drop the last 3 levels of Mystic Theurge). You can get it with a 1 level dip into Contemplative. To get all 10, you'll have to sacrifice at least one wizard or erudite level; I recommend wizard, to keep 9th level powers.

[Morph Bark]

1) 2
2) yes
3) yes

Final question: is it required for you to get the prerequisites for PrCs on the same side as you take the PrC, or can you go Archivist 3/Psion X//Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge X?


They are clearly discipline powers, therefore they must be of a discipline. Therefore, there is a magic discipline, as they are all the same discipline. Nothing made up there.

This is in the same vein as: "An Archivist can learn Paladin spells, therefore they must be Archivist spells."

The Archivist doesn't have a spell list, so the Paladin spells remain Paladin spells, it's just that the Archivist can learn them. Similarly, an StP Erudite can learn spells as if they were powers, but they aren't actually powers, in the sense that they don't all follow all the rules for them.

If that line of thought is hard to follow (I seem to get that a lot lately), then find some RAW that supports you, rather than lack of RAW supporting the opposite.

[Anecronwashere]

Final question: is it required for you to get the prerequisites for PrCs on the same side as you take the PrC, or can you go Archivist 3/Psion X//Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge X?

The second one.

[Rubik]

Just thought I'd pop in and issue a reminder that "Magic" is not a psionic discipline at all and StP erudite can only get you a 9 in psionics and an 8 in arcane casting. These threads seem to 'forget' it (ie repeatedly invent the nonexistant Magic discipline out of thin air) so often.You can totally get 9th level spells with a level 17+ StP erudite so long as there's a level 17+ wizard out there with Sanctum Spell.


Also, in response to the "Favored Discipline (Magic) Spell to Power Erudite" idea: you have one bonus feat from your class to replace at level 1. Favored Discipline and Spell to Power both replace it. You can't have both (nor would having a non-existent favored discipline be helpful).Uh...I count two bonus feats at level 1.

[sreservoir]

A few notes: Unless you are going to break actions per round, you won't be able to use all of your toys at once, even with 3 sets of near full casters.

In gestalt, it helps to have an "active" part and a "passive" part to your build, simply so that you can benefit from everything you have at most levels.

absomorph's build is pretty simple and straight forward, in all honesty. If you can prestige class on both sides, check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) for the "most" you can get from leveling up.

there's a psionic part to it, action economy breakage won't be all that difficult.

I mean, temporal acceleration (or, to put it differently, psionic time stop) is a 6th-level + 4 pp/round general power, with swift action casting, and that's not necessarily even the best part.