Low Level Optimization in Core (DMG, PHB, MM1)

[Aharon]

Hi!

I know the usual answer to the question how to optimize in Core (i.e. Druid 20, Cleric or Wizard 20, Cleric or Wizard with a PrC of your choice...)

I'm optimizing for a specific game though, with house rules I wasn't around to veto when they were agreed upon :smalltongue:

No Point Buy, Stats are rolled (4d6 drop lowest).

Polymorph/Shapechange/Wild Shape effects are diminished in utility: You get a %-chance to learn 2 forms per level. This chance is rather low (IIRC, 2%/level, modified by the DM to account for creature rarity). Wizards can exchange one or both of their free spells for new forms, and forms can be researched for the same price spells can.

There are botches on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks - yes, that means you can totally botch initiative in this game! (gah!!)
This also reduces the usefulness of skill-monkeys.

Encounters are often against single high-cr creatures (I played once with the group, and this happened, and the players told me they frequently fought against dragons).

The game starts at level 3, so the power curve at lower levels should be accounted for.

I have no specific idea what to play yet - I usually go mechanics first, story second, but haven't been in a gaming group that uses the above restrictions since a long time.

Having looked at the Legend rules a bit in the last few days, I thought it might be fun to optimize action use. That's why I currently favor Halfling Drd or Clr 3 using mounted combat and a riding dog as mount.

Both classes have spells that can be redirected as move actions (spiritual weapon/flaming sphere, later on metamagic'ed flaming sphere/Strength domain fist spells), so I actually move with my mount and use my own move action on redirecting those spells.

I'm aware the spells aren't the best - I'm curious wether you agree that the above is a viable tactic given the fact that you normally wouldn't use the move actions anyway (Cleric: awaken dog=> Leadership later on, dog as monk or fighter cohort. I think the DM won't go for standard leadership, but might allow this edge case, as it doesn't bump up power as much as a real cohort).

Specific questions:
1) given the above limitations, what would you play?
2) How do you improve low-level wizard survivability in core? I like wizards and would go for one if possible, but I think that around that level, core isn't very friendly to them - no abrupt jaunt, very limited spell selection, AC actually matters...
3) Do you have any other advice or thoughts on the subject?

I chose halfling Druid 3, would appreciate advice on feat and skill selection.

[Eldariel]

So, Druid 3 is the easy option. You don't need many forms for efficient Wildshaping; you just need to pick good ones (Brown/Polar Bear, Tiger, Dire variants & some avian, for instance). In other words, use the Research option. Your Animal Companion is your primary combat contribution in addition to your control spells at this point anyways so you should be fine.


Wizard, eh, on these levels you can often afford to use Mage Armor already. You also should have decent Initiative and AC and then you just sit in the back to avoid letting people get easy hits on you. If only ranged types can shoot at you, you're generally alright. Things like riding and using the Cover Behind Mount or using Hide (you have enough points to cross-class something) and then there's the silly-but-efficient "Tower Shield -> Take Cover"-option though I mostly avoid that 'cause it's stupid.

But yeah, high ability to disable troublesome opponents combined with some AC and ways to be hard to target are what you do as a Wizard, generally. Do note that you can Alter Self on 3 already; I'd gladly burn a spell known for some useful form depending on your base race. Oh and there's of course False Life though it may not be alluring to spend your highest level spell slot on.


I'd definitely consider a Wizard,too. It's rarely a poor addition to a party and a well-played Wizard generally functions just fine. They're not very forgiving and thus make good characters for careful players if intending on living long and prospering.

[Gavinfoxx]

So whenever botch rules for skill checks are in effect, I make sure to ask a series of questions on what house rules there are to Take 10...

[Aharon]

@Eldariel
=> Druid
I only ever played one, for one session, before I really started optimizing my characters. The whole bear-shtick (ride a bear, be a bear, summon bears, shoot lightning) sounds interesting, but I have been reading sonofzeal's thread on the topic lately, and his arguments (wildshape 24/7 isn't the final answer etc.) seemed convincing.
=> Wizard
@decent Initiative
dang, forgot to mention it in the FP. Rolled stats, no Point Buy, so I can't rely on high attributes except that my highest stat will be my casting stat. High Dex isn't a given.
@Alter Self
Best available is probably Troglodyte for +6NA, but with a 30 min duration, it probably only lasts for one encounter (granted, given the playing style of the group, that might suffice).

@gavinfoxx
Huh, right - didn't occur to me, since most skill checks I made in the last session were in situations that didn't allow Take 10 anyway.

I guess it's allowed, since we took 20 to search for some books.

But thanks for the reminder!

[Shadowleaf]

So little to no Polymorphing shenanigans and a 5% chance to being spaced out when combat erupts?
I'd probably play something that doesn't need to roll dice and forces your opponents to do so (assuming they botch on a 1 as well). Something like an Illusionist might work well:
Whisper Gnome Gnome Illusionist 1/Wizard 2 with DC-pumping feats to help combat higher CR Monsters (Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Shadow Weave Magic, maybe Earth Sense and Earth Spell if you're feeling cheesy). I'd probably pick up the ACF Illusion Mastery and ban Evocation as well.

[Aharon]

@Shadowleaf
Thanks, but the race, ACF and feats you mention are largely from other sources than PHB, MM and DMG.
Illusionist is a cool idea, but I bet there will be a lot of houseruling involved - it has to because a lot of things about illusions are ill-defined. Looking at the other houserules, I doubt they will be in my favor :smallyuk:

[sonofzeal]

I'd be tempted to go either Cleric, or traditional Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue multiclassed beatstick. A few levels in each of those classes is often entirely decent, even in core, and combining them gives you enough options to play with. Brb1/Ftr2/Rgr2/Rog4 is hands-down my favourite 9th level Core build. Works well at all levels, gets a wide set of abilities, and is generally fun to play. It also doesn't use anything that's particularly houserules-sensitive, and you can generally cope with whatever the campaign is doing.

[Shadowleaf]

@Shadowleaf
Thanks, but the race, ACF and feats you mention are largely from other sources than PHB, MM and DMG.
Illusionist is a cool idea, but I bet there will be a lot of houseruling involved - it has to because a lot of things about illusions are ill-defined. Looking at the other houserules, I doubt they will be in my favor :smallyuk:
Honestly forgot about the Core-only restrictions :smallredface:.
I still stand by my "Don't roll anything ever" idea - 5% is a lot and can really screw you over on a critical attack or skill role. Maybe a Wizard relying on Save or Suck spells (Color Spray springs to mind).

[Aharon]

@sonofzeal
Hm, sounds good. However, I suspect heavy multiclassing won't be in, given the conservative rules in other areas.
@Shadowleaf
Hm, I haven't done save-or-suck lately.

Quick evaluation:
Cleric:
Druid: 1/2 vote
Wizard: 1 1/2 vote
Brb/Ftr/Rgr/Rge: 1 vote

Does anybody have an opinion on the action thingie?

[Shadowleaf]

@sonofzeal
Hm, sounds good. However, I suspect heavy multiclassing won't be in, given the conservative rules in other areas.
@Shadowleaf
Hm, I haven't done save-or-suck lately.

Quick evaluation:
Cleric:
Druid: 1/2
Wizard: 1 1/2

Does anybody have an opinion on the action thingie?Why not have the riding dog as your animal companion if going Druid?

Though I really wouldn't suggest Druid if you're going to encounter limited Wildshape options. Only being able to shift into a Were-Squirrel and a Platypus would suck even if you can retrain later.

If you want to optimize action economy, why not consider full out Mounted Combat? It's fairly good and not very cheesy.

[Amphetryon]

1) In the above set of rules, I'd be likely to roll up a Bard, simply to reduce the number of times I'd be personally attacking by making a character that's focused on buffing up the rest of the party instead.

2) Alter Self FTW, if Wizard is your go-to. Conjuration specialist, ditch Enchantment and Illusion (because the above houserules make me suspicious of how the DM would rule on Illusions), and you'll have the ability to bamph in a beatstick for fights against big monsters while you're in innocuous puppy form.

3) Staying at range is especially sound tactical advice with the above restrictions and suggestions. If you must, fire a bow or crossbow to conserve spells, but I'd avoid engaging in melee like the plague, because the above restrictions make your own actions dangerous to you, so putting yourself in immediate harm's way with the enemy just radically increases your character's chances of accidental death.

[Aharon]

@Shadowleaf
=>Riding dog and druid:
That would be the plan. I probably didn't make that clear enough, I'll edit the FP. Two concerns:
1) As mounted combat-druid, I lose out on using wild shape. Despite the rules allowing it, I doubt the DM would be fine with bear-riding bears.
2) The only druid spell which requires a move action to direct that I found is Flaming sphere, which does sub-par damage. Spiritual weapon seems to be the better option (damage is untyped, no-save), and clerics with the strength-domain get some of the move-action directed Bigby-Spells later on.

[sonofzeal]

@sonofzeal
Hm, sounds good. However, I suspect heavy multiclassing won't be in, given the conservative rules in other areas.
Heavy multiclassing is just about the first thing I check with a new group. It tells me a lot about whether the group is worth playing with or not - not because characters have to be multiclassed to be fun, but because it indicates a "classes as in-game constructs" mentality and the associated "players cannot be trusted to use their own fluff", which indicates {a} closemindedness, {b} top-down power structure, and {c} lack of respect for players in general and me personally.

And if those three are true, I'd rather go without.

[Aharon]

@Amphetryon
I thought about that, but many of the Bard-enhancers are found in other sourcebooks. I'll take a closer look, I guess.

@sonofzeal
Old friend, new DM, I recently moved back in the vicinity. I prefer this group due to the existing friendship, though I largely agree with your assessment. Maybe I'll eventually have the time to DM myself to solve that problem :smallbiggrin:

Bard: 1
Cleric: 0
Druid: 1/2
Wizard: 1 1/2
Brb/Ftr/Rgr/Rge: 1

[sonofzeal]

Old friend, new DM, I recently moved back in the vicinity. I prefer this group due to the existing friendship, though I largely agree with your assessment. Maybe I'll eventually have the time to DM myself to solve that problem :smallbiggrin:
Out-of-game friendships change the equation somewhat, yeah. I'd still ask, whether or not you plan on doing anything on that front. You might be pleasantly surprised, and if not then at least you know where you stand there.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel
=> Druid
I only ever played one, for one session, before I really started optimizing my characters. The whole bear-shtick (ride a bear, be a bear, summon bears, shoot lightning) sounds interesting, but I have been reading sonofzeal's thread on the topic lately, and his arguments (wildshape 24/7 isn't the final answer etc.) seemed convincing.

His argument is that "Druid isn't übernoobfriendly". I don't think it applies to demographic of People Who Know What They Are Doing. I've played Core Druid and done more than fine. At worst you're a beatstick + caster even if you never use Wildshape.

But I wouldn't bother riding a Dog. Just sit in the back and have the dog fight; riding the dog puts you in harm's way if the dog ever participates in combat and if I'm squishy I'd rather not be in harms. You should still use Wildshape for combat once you get it and have the appropriate Wild Armor + Shield available.

[Ceaon]

Save-or-Suck/Save-or-Die/Buff/Debuff wizard or sorcerer seems the easiest way to bypass most of these houserules.

[Coidzor]

@sonofzeal
Old friend, new DM, I recently moved back in the vicinity. I prefer this group due to the existing friendship, though I largely agree with your assessment. Maybe I'll eventually have the time to DM myself to solve that problem :smallbiggrin:

Can't take advantage of that friendship to drill some good sense into him? Shame, that. Where on earth did he pick up such bad ideas from? :smallconfused:

But, yeah, based only in Core, well, Druid + some crafting are the best things I can think of offhand given those houserules. Well, depending upon whether he's got some sort of XP system in place to punish crafting too or not.

Then again, he's probably not affording any downtime, so forget the crafting unless it's pretty much crystalline.

[Tvtyrant]

A lot of those rules look like balance rules. Note that they only really reference casters, and negate summoning and polymorphing (two of the better options). While they are certainly wonky, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with them. Except the skill check rule, that is crazy.

My suggestion is to play something with a lot of utility. So I would pick a straight cleric with the Magic and Travel domains. This gets you the ability to use magic items like a half-wizard (level 1 spell wands/scrolls are God at low levels), 1 per day Freedom of Movement (you cannot be hindered!), and access to some of the most important spells in the game (fly and teleport, much earlier antimagic field, etc.)

[Gavinfoxx]

@gavinfoxx
Huh, right - didn't occur to me, since most skill checks I made in the last session were in situations that didn't allow Take 10 anyway.

I guess it's allowed, since we took 20 to search for some books.

But thanks for the reminder!

Remember, you can Take 10 to jump across the dangerous chasm, where failure means you fall to your death, as long as you aren't in combat and there aren't distractions like high winds and stuff, and it takes just as long and implies as many attempts and the same amount of failure as if you had rolled a 10... You can generally take 10 any time you aren't actually in combat! And you aren't making multiple attempts too! Lots of people don't realize this...

[Ceaon]

No Point Buy, Stats are rolled (4d6 drop lowest).

There are botches on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks - yes, that means you can totally botch initiative in this game! (gah!!)
This also reduces the usefulness of skill-monkeys.

Encounters are often against single high-cr creatures (I played once with the group, and this happened, and the players told me they frequently fought against dragons).


A lot of those rules look like balance rules. Note that they only really reference casters, and negate summoning and polymorphing (two of the better options).

While I agree with the rest of your post, Tvtyrant, I think most of the houserules actually downgrade martial characters instead of casters.

[Tvtyrant]

While I agree with the rest of your post, Tvtyrant, I think most of the houserules actually downgrade martial characters instead of casters.

I see your point. I was looking too much at the polymorphing rules.

[Shadowleaf]

Restricting Polymorph is actually a really good idea, especially if you disallow some of the outright silly targets (Dire Tortoise, I'm looking at you).

However, it's very hard to balance perfectly, and some DM's go way overboard. There was a thread a few days ago concerning horrible DM stories, where I explained what my previous DM did to restrict Polymorph. It was absurd.

[sonofzeal]

Restricting Polymorph is actually a really good idea, especially if you disallow some of the outright silly targets (Dire Tortoise, I'm looking at you).

However, it's very hard to balance perfectly, and some DM's go way overboard. There was a thread a few days ago concerning horrible DM stories, where I explained what my previous DM did to restrict Polymorph. It was absurd.
I missed that, link?

[Shadowleaf]

I missed that, link?
Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226753) Reading through my post, I can see I didn't really explain it fully. Here are the rules I remember (due note there was about 3-4 pages of dense text concerning Polymorph):

In order to Polymorph into a creature, you had to have twice as many knowledge: Transmutation ranks as their HD, plus ranks equal to their HD in specific form (i.e. Knowledge: Dragon Form for shapeshifting into a Dragon). A Polymorph spell cost a number of 'buff slots' (of which we had 10+relevant feats, which also had to contain our magic items and spell buffs) equal to the number of stats it boosted (a +2 strength +4 con creature would take up 2 buff slots, regardless of spell-like abilities and the likes).

You could, however, polymorph parts of your body to make it closer to the creature you wanted to turn into. For this you used the CL you would cast the Polymorph spell with. I think the trade was something like 1 CL for 1 stat increase, 1 CL for a natural armor, 1 CL for DR 1/relevanttomonster, 4 CL for a new type of attack, or 5 CL for copying a SU ability (yes, any SU ability. Balor's Wish? You got it). For example a CL 12 Polymorph might give you +2 Strength, +6 Con and a Breath Attack.

Needless to say, the campaign became downright silly very fast. I was rocking 40+ Constitution as a Sorcerer with Spellfire based off of my Constitution (allowing me to throw 40 charges, or 40d6 damage, in one turn if I was charged) at level 8.

[sonofzeal]

Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226753) Reading through my post, I can see I didn't really explain it fully. Here are the rules I remember (due note there was about 3-4 pages of dense text concerning Polymorph):

In order to Polymorph into a creature, you had to have twice as many knowledge: Transmutation ranks as their HD, plus ranks equal to their HD in specific form (i.e. Knowledge: Dragon Form for shapeshifting into a Dragon). A Polymorph spell cost a number of 'buff slots' (of which we had 10+relevant feats, which also had to contain our magic items and spell buffs) equal to the number of stats it boosted (a +2 strength +4 con creature would take up 2 buff slots, regardless of spell-like abilities and the likes).

You could, however, polymorph parts of your body to make it closer to the creature you wanted to turn into. For this you used the CL you would cast the Polymorph spell with. I think the trade was something like 1 CL for 1 stat increase, 1 CL for a natural armor, 1 CL for DR 1/relevanttomonster, 4 CL for a new type of attack, or 5 CL for copying a SU ability (yes, any SU ability. Balor's Wish? You got it). For example a CL 12 Polymorph might give you +2 Strength, +6 Con and a Breath Attack.

Needless to say, the campaign became downright silly very fast. I was rocking 40+ Constitution as a Sorcerer with Spellfire based off of my Constitution (allowing me to throw 40 charges, or 40d6 damage, in one turn if I was charged) at level 8.
Oh dear. Talk about nerfing it to the point of uselessness, and then making it even more broken than before! I like his idea, but the implementation! Sweet merciful Pelor the implementation!!!!11!!!1!one

[Shadowleaf]

Oh dear. Talk about nerfing it to the point of uselessness, and then making it even more broken than before! I like his idea, but the implementation! Sweet merciful Pelor the implementation!!!!11!!!1!oneThis DM also thought a Warlock/Sorcerer Theurge was strictly better in every way than a Wizard/Archmage.

After I left the campaign, two of the ~18 players became DR 1-4 Gods at level 8 and 9.

That campaign will always have a special place in my heart.

[sonofzeal]

This DM also thought a Warlock/Sorcerer Theurge was strictly better in every way than a Wizard/Archmage.

After I left the campaign, two of the ~18 players became DR 1-4 Gods at level 8 and 9.

That campaign will always have a special place in my heart.
But... what? B'huh? I don't even....


...yeah though, sounds like quite the experience!

[Gnaeus]

While Zeal and I will probably never agree about melee wildshape, given these houserules bear-form is a really bad idea. At level 6 you are more likely to botch than the fighter standing next to you, and the more attacks you get the worse your odds are.

Similarly, you don't want to be riding a mount into melee. I don't know what will happen when your riding-dog/bear rolls a 1, but I can guess it won't be rider-friendly.

Druid is still good. Summons don't require a roll you can botch, and if they botch, who cares. You want to either have a pet dire bat, which you ride, and which never, ever, makes any attack rolls, or have a melee pet, and then you wildshape into a dire bat or similar flier, and sail above the battle casting spells. A flying druid focusing on summons and battlefield control is a good way to avoid the pain of those houserules.

Caeon is correct, a save or lose wizard is a good option here,.. . maybe. 2 questions:
1. Sounds like a lot of fights are going to be against single target enemies like dragons, with lots of HD and good saves. Are you sure that in core you can get your save DCs to where you can reliably drop a creature several hd higher than you, with good saves?
2. What will your DM do when he stats out a boss fight, you walk in, win initiative, monster fails save, fight ends? Will he cheer and give you a high 5, or will he fudge the roll, or will he redesign the next monster to have unbeatable saves? If it isn't the first option, you don't want to play a save-or-lose caster. You know your DM better than us.

Tyrant, with those houserules, if you go cleric, you have to have luck domain. If you can botch initiative, being able to reroll once per day is the best power in the game.

Playing a buff-bot is also a good option. I think I would still go wizard or cleric for such a character over bard, though, since bards are a bit limited in a core-only game, and especially in a core-only game where they need to avoid using their skills. I can imagine that UMD is less of a benefit in such an environment than a handicap.

[Rubik]

Yeah, I'm with the people who are saying that you never ever ever want to make a d20 roll, not even then. Not even if you have to. Find ways to make rerolls for when you DO have to, take 10 whenever possible, and use spells to bypass the need to make skill checks and so forth.

Get a wand of Knock and tell the party rogue (assuming you have one) that if he wants to risk dislodging the door and having it fall on his head, he's free to try, but you have a risk-free way of doing it instead.

Also, tell your DM that this makes the weak people even weaker, and it gets worse as they level up. Bladeguy Musashi (ostensibly a level 20 warblade or somesuch) dual-wields his blades, and has a 40% (or greater) chance of screwing up, while Joe Commoner has a 5% chance. Why does the blademaster suck more than Joe-the-guy-who-loses-to-housecats?

[Shadowleaf]

Yeah, I'm with the people who are saying that you never ever ever want to make a d20 roll, not even then. Not even if you have to. Find ways to make rerolls for when you DO have to, take 10 whenever possible, and use spells to bypass the need to make skill checks and so forth.

Get a wand of Knock and tell the party rogue (assuming you have one) that if he wants to risk dislodging the door and having it fall on his head, he's free to try, but you have a risk-free way of doing it instead.

Also, tell your DM that this makes the weak people even weaker, and it gets worse as they level up. Bladeguy Musashi (ostensibly a level 20 warblade or somesuch) dual-wields his blades, and has a 40% (or greater) chance of screwing up, while Joe Commoner has a 5% chance. Why does the blademaster suck more than Joe-the-guy-who-loses-to-housecats?Because the DM hates him and wants him to die. I thought that was fairly obvious. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

What you need is a party of 4 wizards. Nobody makes attack rolls at all. One focuses on SoDs and SoLs, one focuses on buffing, one focuses on summoning, and the other focuses on doing the rogue thang.

Everybody wins. And it completely bypasses the DM's dumb-as-a-can-of-spinach houserules.

[Shadowleaf]

What you need is a party of 4 wizards. Nobody makes attack rolls at all. One focuses on SoDs and SoLs, one focuses on buffing, one focuses on summoning, and the other focuses on doing the rogue thang.

Everybody wins. And it completely bypasses the DM's dumb-as-a-can-of-spinach houserules.Problems arise when you have to actually kill something. I'm sure the DM has some crazy houserule when you roll minimum damage on your damage spells. :smallannoyed:

[Rubik]

Problems arise when you have to actually kill something. I'm sure the DM has some crazy houserule when you roll minimum damage on your damage spells. :smallannoyed:Hence the buffer and the summoner. One summons, one buffs the summons, summons kill everything in sight.

[Shadowleaf]

Hence the buffer and the summoner. One summons, one buffs the summons, summons kill everything in sight.Not counting the 5% chance of your summon accidently falling on his sword, sure. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Not counting the 5% chance of your summon accidently falling on his sword, sure. :smallbiggrin:Hey, summons are expendable. That's why you use them. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Hey, summons are expendable. That's why you use them. :smalltongue:

If it's at all like WoD critical fails, you can just as easily hurt your allies when you get a critical fail.

[Shadowleaf]

If it's at all like WoD critical fails, you can just as easily hurt your allies when you get a critical fail.WoD critical fails are a lot harder to come by, though, as a single succes on a roll will negate any number of botches.

We didn't know that for a very long time, which meant DC 10 rolls were just as likely to fail horribly as they were to succeed, no matter the amount of dice being rolled.

[Rubik]

If it's at all like WoD critical fails, you can just as easily hurt your allies when you get a critical fail.You're a group of wizards. You're supposed to stay outside of melee combat range anyway, right?

[Shadowleaf]

You're a group of wizards. You're supposed to stay outside of melee combat range anyway, right?
As your Balor swings his mighty whip, he stumples over a pebble on the ground, making him lose control of his arm. He accidently lets go of the whip which and it propels itself towards you. The last thing you see and feel is a whip wrapping itself around your face as you are critically hit for tons of damage.

[Eldariel]

You're a group of wizards. You're supposed to stay outside of melee combat range anyway, right?

Aye, but when critical fail to the tune of "the magical beast's limb spontaneously dislodges due to a critical failure of maintaining body integrity and flies straight at you..." *rolls attack, confirms critical* "ripping your neck open", it's hard to be safe. Sending summons from a beyond obstacles could be quite safe though...but summons aren't really reliably able to beat equal-leveled creatures without some levels and heavy resource investment, and then then the rules of this game kinda screw summoning.

[Rubik]

As your Balor swings his mighty whip, he stumples over a pebble on the ground, making him lose control of his arm. He accidently lets go of the whip which and it propels itself towards you. The last thing you see and feel is a whip wrapping itself around your face as you are critically hit for tons of damage.And I laugh, because I'm level 17+.

[Shadowleaf]

And I laugh, because I'm level 17+.Too bad you rolled a 1 on your save VS massive damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Too bad you rolled a 1 on your save VS massive damage. :smallbiggrin:And I wake up on my demiplane and re-Astral Project via my Planar Bound nightmare.

But anyway, I think massive BFC is needed here. Webs and Walls and so on. No rolls needed by you; your enemies, however...

[Aharon]

Hi @all!
Thanks for your input.
A small update for your amusement:
I had an email-conversation with the DM. He wants the game to be SIMPLE, TRANQUIL and slightly FAIRYTALE-LIKE (caps by him).
The game is in Faerun, but very far from any civilization, isolated in a wood.

This translates to:
Low Wealth, Low Magic, Low XP
=> Examples:

100 gp starting gold (at 3rd level!!)
casters start with 2 cantrips. Further spells have to be taught by others, regardless what the source of your magic is.


I'm... slightly surprised by these limitations, which he didn't say anything about at our last meeting. Because of the woodland-setting, I now definitely favor druid. If he nerfs magic further, I'll go with barbarian or ranger instead.

[sonofzeal]

Hi @all!
Thanks for your input.
A small update for your amusement:
I had an email-conversation with the DM. He wants the game to be SIMPLE, TRANQUIL and slightly FAIRYTALE-LIKE (caps by him).
The game is in Faerun, but very far from any civilization, isolated in a wood.

This translates to:
Low Wealth, Low Magic, Low XP
=> Examples:

100 gp starting gold (at 3rd level!!)
casters start with 2 cantrips. Further spells have to be taught by others, regardless what the source of your magic is.


I'm... slightly surprised by these limitations, which he didn't say anything about at our last meeting. Because of the woodland-setting, I now definitely favor druid. If he nerfs magic further, I'll go with barbarian or ranger instead.
Sounds like a great time and place for a VoP Totemist. Is Incarnum allowed? You get to channel the power of naturey beasts like Unicorns and Manticores and whatnot...

[Tyndmyr]

I'd probably roll out my standard wizard with a greatsword or scythe. Yes, I'm not proficient with either...but I will never actually roll an attack with them. Color spray or sleep, then Coup de grace.

Note that the spell research rules automatically work for any printed spells, but if extremely low wealth, sorc may be superior.


Low Wealth, Low Magic, Low XP

This is a really bad sign. It screams of a DM that's really unsure of his ability to handle changes and an attempt to minimize all forms of PC power.

I would go conservative, take a caster, and do a LOT of readying actions vs charge, and encourage my fellow party members to do the same. Cleric, Druid, Sorc, Bard is not a bad option.

Edit: Note that Faerun is not ANY of those three things he listed. So, as soon as you get teleport, all those things kind of go away.

[Coidzor]

As your Balor swings his mighty whip, he stumples over a pebble on the ground, making him lose control of his arm. He accidently lets go of the whip which and it propels itself towards you. The last thing you see and feel is a whip wrapping itself around your face as you are critically hit for tons of damage.

This is a RL game. That kind of shenanigans is the sign to break out the real whips and chains.


Hi @all!
Thanks for your input.
A small update for your amusement:
I had an email-conversation with the DM. He wants the game to be SIMPLE, TRANQUIL and slightly FAIRYTALE-LIKE (caps by him).
The game is in Faerun, but very far from any civilization, isolated in a wood.

This translates to:
Low Wealth, Low Magic, Low XP
=> Examples:

100 gp starting gold (at 3rd level!!)
casters start with 2 cantrips. Further spells have to be taught by others, regardless what the source of your magic is.


I'm... slightly surprised by these limitations, which he didn't say anything about at our last meeting. Because of the woodland-setting, I now definitely favor druid. If he nerfs magic further, I'll go with barbarian or ranger instead.

He's trolling you.

If he isn't, then you need to begin immediate reeducation.

[Aharon]

@sonofzeal
Nope, core only.

@Tyndmyr
Yep, that's the impression I got, too. Also a bit railroady (last game, I played a wizard and got Rust Monster as a form. I couldn't use it on a magic metal door because he didn't want that to happen.) Still, you gotta work with what you got. And as I'm just starting at a new job, I don't think I want to take the time to DM myself.

@Coidzor
Any suggestions on how to reeducate? He's rather set in his ways, unfortunately.

@all
I sticked with the druid. I get to roll and botch, but I think I can deal with that better than with the rules discussions and nerfs that would ensue from creating a wizard. This way, I might get some magic, when he feels secure enough. Don't think that will happen with a char that only focuses on casting.
Any suggestions for feats? I was thinking Extend and Empower, though I can't use them yet. Good for Blasting via Produce Flames and Fire Seeds, which I guess will be the most accepted form of magic. I gladly take other suggestions, though.
Despite usually being suboptimal, I was thinking Iron Will for my dog, because its will save is really low. Suggestions?
I took Detect Magic and Cure Minor Wounds as cantrips. Anything more useful (remember, I can only cast those, but using all slots, I get 9 spells a day. Thats 9 HP for me and my dog each. Pretty good without any other magical healing, I think).

[Rubik]

Your DM sounds like he doesn't know what 'fun' means for most players (note I said 'most', and I take this from all the posts I've read over the years).

I suggest you put lots of ranks into Craft skills (craft your own MW tools, and lots of alchemical items -- fluff them as fairy tricks made from all-natural materials) and a feat or two for boosting your starting gold (like the Mercantile Background feat from Player's Guide to Faerun -- not the one from the FCS book -- gain 300 gp starting gold, buy a magic item for much cheaper 1/month, and sell for 75% rather than 50%).

That, or VoP druid. Totemists make way too many attack rolls.

[Aharon]

@Rubik
Thanks for the advice, but it's still a core only game...

I like the Craft(Alchemy) idea, I will think about that.

[Rubik]

@Rubik
Thanks for the advice, but it's still a core only game...

I like the Craft(Alchemy) idea, I will think about that.Core only in Faerun? You don't even get Faerun stuff?

[Tyndmyr]

@Tyndmyr
Yep, that's the impression I got, too. Also a bit railroady (last game, I played a wizard and got Rust Monster as a form. I couldn't use it on a magic metal door because he didn't want that to happen.) Still, you gotta work with what you got. And as I'm just starting at a new job, I don't think I want to take the time to DM myself.

Wow. Send him here. He needs to learn how to DM. Alternately, get him a DMing for Dummies book as a belated Christmas present. (For Dummies books are actually generally good intro books. Haven't read their D&D offerings, but I presume they're similar).

Also, find the anti-railroading quotes in the DMG. LOTS of them exist. Feel free to bust them out if he's railroading too much.

Also, if he's not using a prefab adventure...recommend he do so. They provide excellent training wheels for the new DM.

[Aharon]

@Rubik
Yep, not even the FRCS-stuff.

@Tyndmyr
I'll keep the book tip and the prefab-adventures in mind. I haven't talked to all of the other players about this yet, and if they are comfortable with his style (which I assume, since the group plays together since over 1 1/2 years) and I'm the only one who isn't, I will probably try to adjust - or if I don't have any fun at all, eventually find another group.

[Tyndmyr]

Side note based purely on optimization. If you have notable strength...pack javelins as your backup ranged weapon. Vastly cheaper than mighty longbows early on, when every gold piece matters. Still decent range, and solid damage.

[Aharon]

It's 4d6, drop lowest. I got 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 12
=> Wis 17, Con 16, Int 15, Dex 15, Cha 12, Str 12.

I did put the 15 in Int instead of STR because I figured that I'll eventually get wild shape forms even in this game - he told me about the house rules and nerfs upfront, and there wasn't a "You can't Wildshape at all" among them.

Still will use the Javelins, though :smallsmile:

Any thoughts on the Cantrips and feats?

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: Scrolling up, I see you've already made your choice. Certainly not a bad one, either!

I would play a TN Cleric focused on summoning and buffing, with the Luck and Travel domains. Luck domain gives you a re-roll to keep in your back pocket for untimely botches, and Travel domain gives you an early Freedom of Movement, plus teleport spells for scry-n-die in the later game.

You want to ride some sort of animal? Sure, no problem. Use Lesser Planar Ally (or the Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort feature) to pick up a Nightmare, if possible. Now you can ride in style... and by "in style," I mean "as an Astral Projection duplicate of yourself, with the real you safely stashed somewhere else and a contingent Astral Deva defending your silvery cord." That is, if you're the paranoid sort.

[Eldariel]

It's 4d6, drop lowest. I got 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 12
=> Wis 17, Con 16, Int 15, Dex 15, Cha 12, Str 12.

I did put the 15 in Int instead of STR because I figured that I'll eventually get wild shape forms even in this game - he told me about the house rules and nerfs upfront, and there wasn't a "You can't Wildshape at all" among them.

Still will use the Javelins, though :smallsmile:

Any thoughts on the Cantrips and feats?

The most useful and powerful, doubly so for Druid with generally lower variety of options for it, cantrip in the game is Detect Magic. Cure Minor Wounds is ok, but ultimately probably redundant while you can get something with minor but more unique utility like Purify Food or Guidance or Create Water or Mending. Though your choices are fine, to be honest.

And a combat Riding Dog seems like the thing. Druids certainly can be fine with low wealth; just focus on getting a decent Barding for your companion and keeping yourself somewhat armed and equipped and you're fine. You'll probably have to take the Craft-feats yourself to get better equipment later on though so Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Items (the two types a Druid uses the most) should probably be rather high up your feat list.


Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike & Spell Penetration are all reasonable feat choices. IUS leads to Improved Grapple and Combat Expertise into Improved Trip which are both of interest once you get any large Wildshape forms (we're probably looking at level ~9 which is coincidentally when you can easily afford to pick up and craft Wild Armor for yourself as well), while Extend Spell and Spell Penetration have obvious utility, and Improved Initiative likewise.

EDIT: Oh, I'd definitely be middle-aged if that's an option. It makes sense for a over-level-1 Druid anyways and it fits your stats quite well.

[Gnaeus]

@all
I sticked with the druid. I get to roll and botch, but I think I can deal with that better than with the rules discussions and nerfs that would ensue from creating a wizard. This way, I might get some magic, when he feels secure enough. Don't think that will happen with a char that only focuses on casting.
Any suggestions for feats? I was thinking Extend and Empower, though I can't use them yet. Good for Blasting via Produce Flames and Fire Seeds, which I guess will be the most accepted form of magic. I gladly take other suggestions, though.

Core only, level 1, either Extend and Empower, as you suggested, or a pair of combat feats for when you eventually get wildshape. Either Combat Expertise + Improved Trip, or Improved Unarmed Strike + improved grapple. Either one will help you if you do wind up in melee, especially if you manage to get a grappling or tripping form. If you never, ever, under any circumstances plan on being in melee, which with the houserules I would understand, Extend and Empower are probably your next best bet.

[Rubik]

I'd focus on finding ways to produce wealth from your surroundings. If you find a gem, craft an art item worth 3x the original amount, and since art items are considered trade goods, you sell (or trade) at full value. If you find a rare and pretty flower, find a way to preserve it so you can sell it later. If you find an adamantine door somewhere, break the hinges and tote it back to civilization to have it melted down and turned into weapons.

Crafting feats, crafting skills, and an open mind can produce quite a lot of wealth, especially if you find ways to make low-level magic work for you.