Cleric casting full arcane and divine?

[Bloodgruve]

I explored this a bit in an older post but I may have the chance to run it so I would like to see if it works and what I can do with it. Goal is to make a character that could potentially cast most of the spells in the game.

Cleric 19 / Wizard 1
Versatile Spellcasting (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/) allows you to drop two spells of the same level to cast a spell 1 level higher that you know.

To my understanding wizards learn and know spells if they record them into their spell book. This is done by a spellcraft check or gaining wizard levels. Also, to my understanding a wizard can record any level of spell to her spellbook if the check is made.

This being said, could a cleric who had a spellbook with a level 5 spell drop two level 4 spells to cast it? Assuming that the player had the int and wis and had found and recorded the spells to support it.

Forgive me if this is a know build, I usually don't run casters.

TYVM for your input,

Blood~

[The Underlord]

No because you need to be a spontaeous caster to take versatile spell caster.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't have any input on your combining arcane and divine, but I would like to make a suggestion for you (as part of your cast all spells in the game idea).

There is a caster similar to a cleric in the book Heroes of Horror, called an archivist. An archivist is a divine caster who uses a spellbook, and knows a limited number of spells, similar to a wizard, but can scribe spells from scrolls into his spellbook, just like a wizard.

The kicker here is, an archivist has a special ability: He's able to scribe any divine spell into his spellbook. That means you get free cleric spells from your archivist levels, but you can also scribe and cast druid spells, paladin spells, ranger spells, adept spells, anything you want, and cast them. This is open to lots of cheese, since some classes get cleric spells, but of a lower level than clerics are able to cast them (such as a paladin having lesser restoration as a 1st level spell, or an adept getting heal as a 5th level spell)

So there you go, at least, for the divine side. I think it will be much more efficient for you than using cleric in your build. Hope it works out for you. :smallsmile:

[Eldest]

[Probably will be ninja'd]
You can argue that a Cleric has spontaneous spells, since they can spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells. But then you're getting into iffy territory.

[erikun]

The biggest problem is that "Spells Known" is a specific game term, referring to the known spells for a spontaneous caster. Wizards never get any Spells Known, but rather transcribe spells into their spellbook and memorize them into spell slots.

A rather interesting point about Wizards and (possibly) transcribing spell scrolls of any level, though. A Wizard 1/Archivist 19 would be able to use that trick, if accurate, to transcribe any Wizard spell into their spellbook and then into their Archivist spellbook.

[Bloodgruve]

The biggest problem is that "Spells Known" is a specific game term, referring to the known spells for a spontaneous caster. Wizards never get any Spells Known, but rather transcribe spells into their spellbook and memorize them into spell slots.

A rather interesting point about Wizards and (possibly) transcribing spell scrolls of any level, though. A Wizard 1/Archivist 19 would be able to use that trick, if accurate, to transcribe any Wizard spell into their spellbook and then into their Archivist spellbook.

Could you point me to where 'Spells Known' is defined as a specific game term? I've been searching but can not find it. Also, the feat states that you can cast any spell you know, opposed to spells known. SRD states that a wizard learns and knows spells in his spell book.

Versatile Spellcaster states that you have to be able to spontaneously cast spells. A cleric can spontaneously cast 'cure' spells. Is there a reason that this does not apply to the prerequisite?

TYVM

Blood~

[XionUnborn01]

Sorcerers have a specific Spells Known table in their entry. As for clerics spontaneously casting, they sacrifice energy from one spell for another, as opposed to the actual spontaneous casting of the sorcerer who picks spells on the fly and uses daily allotments to cast them.

[killem2]

Could you point me to where 'Spells Known' is defined as a specific game term? I've been searching but can not find it. Also, the feat states that you can cast any spell you know, opposed to spells known. SRD states that a wizard learns and knows spells in his spell book.

Versatile Spellcaster states that you have to be able to spontaneously cast spells. A cleric can spontaneously cast 'cure' spells. Is there a reason that this does not apply to the prerequisite?

TYVM

Blood~

I think the slight catch is, with clerics, they are spontaneously casting a cure spell, in place of a "prepared" spell.

[sreservoir]

clerics certainly do qualify for VS; they have a class feature titled Spontaneous Casting. whether they're actually able to use it (because it works off spells known, which aren't well-defined for either clerics or wizards) is ... argued.

[killem2]

Yeah as a DM, since the wording is so sloppy, I'd allow a cleric to use it.

Not the players fault that wotc can't type worth a crap.

(have you seen the 3.0 hand book? good lordy)

[Bloodgruve]

Sorcerers have a specific Spells Known table in their entry. As for clerics spontaneously casting, they sacrifice energy from one spell for another, as opposed to the actual spontaneous casting of the sorcerer who picks spells on the fly and uses daily allotments to cast them.

Ty Xion, so 'Spells Known' is an ability of certain classes just like 'Smite Evil' or 'Scorn Earth'.

I guess I should ask, does a wizard know a spell in his spellbook? The feat targets spells you know.

Also, sacraficing engery is how the cleric spontaneously casts but it is stated under a section titled Spontaneous Casting.

I know this is probably diverging from the intended purpose of the feat but I am failing to see something stopping this from working. Also, I'm not denying the fact that I may have to dodge the DMG flying at my head..

TY
Blood~

[killem2]

Ty Xion, so 'Spells Known' is an ability of certain classes just like 'Smite Evil' or 'Scorn Earth'.

I guess I should ask, does a wizard know a spell in his spellbook? The feat targets spells you know.

Also, sacraficing engery is how the cleric spontaneously casts but it is stated under a section titled Spontaneous Casting.

I know this is probably diverging from the intended purpose of the feat but I am failing to see something stopping this from working. Also, I'm not denying the fact that I may have to dodge the DMG flying at my head..

TY
Blood~

I think we need to start an WAI thread:

Wrote
As
Intended

And let the debates begin :D

[NNescio]

Could you point me to where 'Spells Known' is defined as a specific game term? I've been searching but can not find it. Also, the feat states that you can cast any spell you know, opposed to spells known. SRD states that a wizard learns and knows spells in his spell book.

Versatile Spellcaster states that you have to be able to spontaneously cast spells. A cleric can spontaneously cast 'cure' spells. Is there a reason that this does not apply to the prerequisite?

TYVM

Blood~

It is defined (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=) as a specific game term. Unfortunately for Erikun, said definition debunks his whole argument.

(Well, unless he tries to claim that Spells Known ≠ Known Spells, but that's just grasping at straws, and the Versatile Spellcaster feat doesn't use that specific verbiage anyway. Also, having a Wizard not know his spells would break Spell Mastery, a core-only feat that is obviously intended for Wizards only.)

The same definition was also given in Pg 310 of the PHB.

Oddly, this definition only applies to arcane spellcasters.

[Bloodgruve]

It is defined (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=) as a specific game term. Unfortunately for Erikun, said definition debunks his whole argument.

(Well, unless he tries to claim that Spells Known ≠ Known Spells, but that's just grasping at straws, and the Versatile Spellcaster feat doesn't use that specific verbiage anyway. Also, having a Wizard not know his spells would break Spell Mastery, a core-only feat that is obviously intended for Wizards only.)

The same definition was also given in Pg 310 of the PHB.

Oddly, this definition only applies to arcane spellcasters.

Thank you NNescoi for helping me add another bookmark to my list!

The feat states that you use two spell slots. Do clerics have spell slots?

Also, and this was debated in another thread as well, is anything preventing someone with Magical Training (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/magical-training--1834/) casting spells a wizard from recording more spells in the spell book? Is this a way to gain more known spells as long as you have the spellcraft check to record them?

TYVM
Blood~

[killem2]

Thank you NNescoi for helping me add another bookmark to my list!

The feat states that you use two spell slots. Do clerics have spell slots?

TYVM
Blood~

I would say yes.

From PHB:

Spell Slots: The character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show
how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These
openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always
has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.
For example, a 7th-level cleric has at least one 4th-level spell slot and
two 3rd-level spell slots. However, he could choose to prepare three
3rd-level spells instead, filling the 4th-level slot with a lower-level
spell. Similarly, he could fill his 4th-level domain spell slot with a
lower-level domain spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough
ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still
gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. For
example, a 9th-level cleric who has a Wisdom score of only 14
cannot cast a 5th-level spell but can prepare an extra lower-level
spell in its place and store it in the 5th-level spell slot.

[Bloodgruve]

I think we need to start an WAI thread:

Wrote
As
Intended

And let the debates begin :D

There are definitely some WAI issues regarding this but the DM that would be running this can get very RAW sometimes so that's what I'm going for ;)

This basically gives any character with the ability to spontaneous cast and the ability to have a spell book via Wizard 1 or Magical Training (if it works) to have the potential for knowing all wizard spells and cast them on the fly..

TY again,

Blood~

[Snowbluff]

No because you need to be a spontaeous caster to take versatile spell caster.

Clerics can cast spontaneously. :smallwink:

EDIT: Swordsaged! :smallredface:

[dextercorvia]

Bloodgruve, it works as you say, for the reasons others have stated. Yes Clerics cast spontaneously. Yes, Wizards can learn and know spells they can't otherwise cast yet. Yes, Versatile Spellcaster allows you to use one class's slots to cast another class's spells.

I would like to note, that Versatile Spellcaster is fairly likely to be nerfed in actual gameplay, at bare minimum to prevent cross-class-casting, often to require a (traditionally accepted) spontaneous class like Sorcerer, Favored Soul, or Beguiler. There are exceptions, if you are going full bore high-op play. But, I don't recommend doing this if your group thinks Monks are awesome.

[Bloodgruve]

I would like to note, that Versatile Spellcaster is fairly likely to be nerfed in actual gameplay, at bare minimum to prevent cross-class-casting, often to require a (traditionally accepted) spontaneous class like Sorcerer, Favored Soul, or Beguiler. There are exceptions, if you are going full bore high-op play. But, I don't recommend doing this if your group thinks Monks are awesome.

Agreed.

TY
Blood~