Mass Effect 3 Part III: The important part is not whining, it's participosting

[Gaius Marius]

Let's fire-up this one, since we hit page 50!

(If you don't like the title, we can always edit it to something more witty. I just want to poke fun at the Elemental of Whine that are lurking around :smallbiggrin: )

Now that I finished ME2, I can't wait to see the ending chapter!!! Reapers, beware!!!

Edit: Here is my personnal tentative to redempt my failpost :smallbiggrin:

First Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194327)

Second Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206184)

[Zevox]

Bah, I was about to start a new one :smallfrown: .

Oh, and this is actually the third ME3 thread. The OP of the previous one didn't label it thread 2 for some reason, but she did include a link to the first thread in the first post, so you can double check that if you want.

Anyway, as a discussion-starter until discussions from the end of the last thread get imported, anybody else surprised that we don't have more confirmed companions at this point? There's only two months left until release but all we have confirmed are those that we've known about for more than half a year, and they're all ME1 companions (plus the one new guy, Vega). That's not much - with one of Kaiden or Ash dead and Wrex not confirmed (and probably unlikely to be a companion due to his new leadership role among his people) it actually means that so far we know of fewer companions for ME3 than we had companions in ME1.

Zevox

[Gaius Marius]

Anyway, as a discussion-starter until discussions from the end of the last thread get imported, anybody else surprised that we don't have more confirmed companions at this point? There's only two months left until release but all we have confirmed are those that we've known about for more than half a year, and they're all ME1 companions (plus the one new guy, Vega). That's not much - with one of Kaiden or Ash dead and Wrex not confirmed (and probably unlikely to be a companion due to his new leadership role among his people) it actually means that so far we know of fewer companions for ME3 than we had companions in ME1.

Zevox

I am not entirely surprised we don't know much. I like the idea of having characters being only temporarily present in the game, or a surprise presence.

Liara and Legion in ME2 were both great surprises in ME2. I like the idea of mission-specific companions. Or many assigning some team members to side-mission and have them perform differently based on whom you selected, kinda like in the final chapter of ME2.

[chiasaur11]

So, the Illusive Man.

Anyone hope a sidequest is hunting him down, sticking a pistol to his head, and holding the trigger until it goes "Click"?

Because I, for one, do not want to do that.


I want to feed him to Thresher Maws. Poetic justice.

[Gaius Marius]

So, the Illusive Man.

Anyone hope a sidequest is hunting him down, sticking a pistol to his head, and holding the trigger until it goes "Click"?

Because I, for one, do not want to do that.


I want to feed him to Thresher Maws. Poetic justice.


Apparently..


Cerberus goes rogue and indoctrinated in ME3, so the whole idea of redeeming the organisation is moot now

[horngeek]

My opinion of Cerberus? As Miranda describes its role (human equivalent to Salarian STG) it's a good idea.

The execution just leaves a lot to be desired.

[Sarone]

My opinion of Cerberus? As Miranda describes its role (human equivalent to Salarian STG) it's a good idea.

The execution just leaves a lot to be desired.

Which execution?

I do admit to be a little ticked at the number of companions you will have access to. Frankly, playing through ME 1, I wasn't very thrilled by Kaiden or Williamson.

I just hope that you can put some of the people (Tali and Garrus) in charge of teams/ships/strikeforces.

Basically, since they are bringing every one back (that survived ME 1 and 2) in as part time party members, that'll be decent. But I want final say on who I want to bring with me when we take the fight to the Reapers.

Another thing that is also ticking me off a bit is the fact that we may not get the Cerberus crew from ME 2. Frankly, if I went into the dragon's den to get them, I want them on my ship unless something prevents them from doing so (faily and such, or the fact they want to head for the hills).

[Zevox]

I do admit to be a little ticked at the number of companions you will have access to. Frankly, playing through ME 1, I wasn't very thrilled by Kaiden or Williamson.
Oh, I'm not assuming that the announced five are all we'll have, I'm just surprised that more haven't been announced yet.

Zevox

[Xondoure]

I'll say it once more... if there isn't a way to repair the Normandy's lighting I am writing a formal complaint to Bioware begging them to add it as DLC.

[ShinyRocks]

Seriously. The Normandy 2 was so much swishier than the Normandy. And you could SEE. If they get all 'this is a military vessel, that means poor lighting and no soft furnishings', I'm going to be a sad panda.

[ninja_penguin]

My opinion of Cerberus? As Miranda describes its role (human equivalent to Salarian STG) it's a good idea.

The execution just leaves a lot to be desired.

I always found a serious disconnect of the attitudes of Miranda and Jacob re: Cerberus compared to Cerberus in practice in almost every other instance of your interactions with them. I honestly had a hard time believing that my sole survivor renegade biotic Shep wouldn't just immediately try and reduce both of them into paste and run off with the Newmandy.

[Xondoure]

I don't know, crazy attempt to bring one man back from the dead by throwing money at the problem until something goes horribly wrong and the facility is blown up along with most of the staff? Sounds like pretty standard Cerberus fare to me.

[Aotrs Commander]

Seriously. The Normandy 2 was so much swishier than the Normandy. And you could SEE. If they get all 'this is a military vessel, that means poor lighting and no soft furnishings', I'm going to be a sad panda.

I dunno, I always though the Normandy 2 just seemed...empty. It felt like they'd just doubled the size of the ship and re-skinned it, without filling the extra space with anything (in the areas that were updated versions of the old one - the new areas were kinda okay in that regard.). I just found that the wasted open space was jarring and it didn't seem logical you'd have large open spaces like on the new bridge on a starship and not use them for something. The first one felt more like a military starship should look like, I thought.

Maybe they'll have used the space a bit better in ME 3. Guess we'll see...

[Sarone]

You can always hope. I do admit that I liked the stairs in the first Normandy.

[ShinyRocks]

To be honest, as long as they turn the lights on, I'll be happy.

[Gaius Marius]

Agreed a bit. Let's take a look at the parts of SR-2:

- captain's quarters. Got nothing about that part. It's a capt's prerogative to have special quarter, and it's a relatively exposed part of the ship, so better not put essential ship components.

- Bridge + cockpit. That's reasonable
- CiC: do seem to have a bit of wasted space. But then again, in a crisis, you might want to have lots of space for crewman to run in both direction without bumping into each other.
- Armory: it does seems oversized. But I have no idea how large an armory actually is.
- laboratory. Except for the Northen part of the room with the upgrade consoles, it seems appropriate
- conference room/com room: meh. Wasted space, I'd say. Could be done 60% of available space. But it's judiciously located. Close to CiC, but privately located far from the crew's ears.

- crew quarters: okay
- bathrooms: useless waste of space to have 2 of them. Provides a funny joke once, but that's about it.
- observation rooms: horrible waste of space to have 2 of them. Although before being squatted by team members, might provide an appropriate R&R areas.
- life support: way oversized. Way too much wasted space there.
- miranda's office: waste. So much waste of perfectly good silicone..
- gunnery station: fine
- on the way to gunnery station: sleep pods? Why?!? Don't you have crew quarters?!
- eating room: that's actually fine in my book. The crew needs a "relax" location.
- sickbay: fine
- AI core: fine. This setup is what the Life Support shout have been. Cramped but functionnable.

Engine rooms + cargo bays looked fine, albeit a bit unused. Would have loved to see the cargo bays being cramped with crates as I gathered million of tons of ore

Overall, the ship seemed more functional than anwadte of space. You could outfit it with 20+ marines if you cramped the social space with sleep pods, used the observation decks are training areas and R&R.

[Landis963]

Agreed a bit. Let's take a look at the parts of SR-2:

- captain's quarters. Got nothing about that part. It's a capt's prerogative to have special quarter, and it's a relatively exposed part of the ship, so better not put essential ship components.

I know my Shepard, for one, would sleep a little easier if it weren't so exposed relative to the rest of the ship, but he's not complaining about his new apartment.


- Bridge + cockpit. That's reasonable
- CiC: do seem to have a bit of wasted space. But then again, in a crisis, you might want to have lots of space for crewman to run in both direction without bumping into each other.

CIC and Bridge is apparently Turian design, intended to give the commanding officer the most possible space and greatest view of underlings. That said, Shepard gravitates to the cockpit in a crisis, and the Galaxy Map/grand majority of the CIC is completely ignored.


- Armory: it does seems oversized. But I have no idea how large an armory actually is.
- laboratory. Except for the Northen part of the room with the upgrade consoles, it seems appropriate
- conference room/com room: meh. Wasted space, I'd say. Could be done 60% of available space. But it's judiciously located. Close to CiC, but privately located far from the crew's ears.

And here we come to the greatest issue of the Normandy SR-2: Wasted space. There is no reason for either the lab or the armory to look out onto the Eezo core, and the space could just as easily be used as apartments for Mordin and Jacob, respectively.


- crew quarters: okay
...
- on the way to gunnery station: sleep pods? Why?!? Don't you have crew quarters?!

As I recall, there were sleep pods there on the original Normandy as well. However, they are useless with the bunk beds, although I'm not sure that Crew Quarters + Sleep pods (as shown in game)= enough for the Normandy SR-2's crew


- bathrooms: useless waste of space to have 2 of them. Provides a funny joke once, but that's about it.

Symmetry, plus "technically a civilian vessel"


- observation rooms: horrible waste of space to have 2 of them. Although before being squatted by team members, might provide an appropriate R&R areas.
- life support: way oversized. Way too much wasted space there.

See above w/ Lab and armory complaints. Also, If Kasumi has the space to set up a bar and a VR gaming system, something is terribly wrong.


- miranda's office: waste. So much waste of perfectly good silicone..

:smallannoyed: I see what you did there. And frankly, her office suite is one of the least egregious of all the large spaces.


- gunnery station: fine
- eating room: that's actually fine in my book. The crew needs a "relax" location.
- sickbay: fine
- AI core: fine. This setup is what the Life Support shout have been. Cramped but functionnable.

Sickbay could have used a little less space, although again, not milspec anymore.


Engine rooms + cargo bays looked fine, albeit a bit unused. Would have loved to see the cargo bays being cramped with crates as I gathered million of tons of ore

Extra disposable cover for the Oculus battle, Yay! However, there was no reason for the picture windows onto the eezo core, especially since Miranda insists on dragging you there for her sex scene.


Overall, the ship seemed more functional than anwadte of space. You could outfit it with 20+ marines if you cramped the social space with sleep pods, used the observation decks are training areas and R&R.

:smallconfused: "anwadte"? Is that a typo (of "a waste" perhaps)? Also, with so much extra space, there has to be room for emergency kinetic barrier generators (in case of boarders), especially since we see such barriers in place after the main mission, with the technician working on some exposed circuitry. That would make the Collector invasion much more difficult for them.

[Aotrs Commander]

Agreed a bit. Let's take a look at the parts of SR-2:
- CiC: do seem to have a bit of wasted space. But then again, in a crisis, you might want to have lots of space for crewman to run in both direction without bumping into each other.- eating room: that's actually fine in my book. The crew needs a "relax" location.

I think it was mainly the CiC and the mess that was my biggest problem, as they didn't appear to have filled the space much, especially as they were the closest to the much-more-real-feeling (in terms of space) Normandy 1 designs. At least they could have put some equipment lockers on the outside walls in the former or something or more tables in the latter. It just looked particularly barren.

Heck, I think there was less open space on the freaking Enterprise D in Ten-Forward than on the Normandy 2's crew deck, which was what bugged me. It looked half-furnished. (Were Cerberus planning to hold formal balls or something...?)

I thought there was plenty enough room on the original CiC; more than you'd see on a real military ship, especially on a submarine, say, so the space certainly shouldn't be needed for running around as you suggest it might have. (Besides, you wouldn't really want people to be running around in a crisis. If it occurs that people have to be running to and fro on such a regular basis it requires leaving that much space for it, something must have gone seriously wrong in the design phase...!)

Overall, the rest of the ship could have used some tightening up in terms of space utility, but it was the bareness of those two locations that stood out to me most when first running around.

[Gaius Marius]

Yhea, anwadte is "a waste". Bloody iPhone.

You make a good point about being in the cockpit in a crunch. It does makes the CiC useless in that regard. I do like being in a centralized location when I leave the Star Map, tho.

Yhea, sleep pod + crew quarters was stupid. I do believe we have ennough for everybody. There is, what, 20+ beds?

You don't like my silicone resource allocation priority? Do explain :smallwink:

And why is miranda's office not egregious? She is my XO, she should be on the bridge where Presley was. Not sulking in an earshot location to where the crew relax and is OFF DUTY. The XO's job isn't to harass the crew when they are trying to decompress, but have them sharp when they are on duty.

Agreed about more internal defenses. But I do believe the ship need more marines in addition to my personal Badass Contingent. 10-15 marines wouldn't be superfluous.

[Landis963]

Yhea, anwadte is "a waste". Bloody iPhone.

You make a good point about being in the cockpit in a crunch. It does makes the CiC useless in that regard. I do like being in a centralized location when I leave the Star Map, tho.

Yhea, sleep pod + crew quarters was stupid. I do believe we have ennough for everybody. There is, what, 20+ beds?

You don't like my silicone resource allocation priority? Do explain :smallwink:

And why is miranda's office not egregious? She is my XO, she should be on the bridge where Presley was. Not sulking in an earshot location to where the crew relax and is OFF DUTY. The XO's job isn't to harass the crew when they are trying to decompress, but have them sharp when they are on duty.

Agreed about more internal defenses. But I do believe the ship need more marines in addition to my personal Badass Contingent. 10-15 marines wouldn't be superfluous.

I'm wondering how many manned consoles there are on the bridge. As I recall, there are ~ten people on the consoles, not counting the standing members working on and around the CIC (standing members includes Kelly, FYI). That's half the crew quarters right there, and I'm not out of the main deck yet. I'm guesstimating another five around the CIC, plus Kelly, then going down a deck, plus the two in the crew quarters, the three at the table, and Rupert, and that's 22 beds required in all. However, I can't think of any others besides Engineers Donnelly and Daniels, bringing it up to 24 total visible crew members who require sleeping quarters. Which means that the bunk beds can get smaller and more numerous, and the sleeping pods can go. Or the sleeping pods can go to that marine contingent on your wishlist.

I said that Miranda's office was one of the least egregious, not that her position was one of the least egregious. Also, my Shepard would want to circumvent Cerberus as much as possible, which means avoiding her. Also, not sure why she gets a queen bed.

EDIT: Re: the silicone resource allocation: Those aren't silicone, remember?

[Gaius Marius]

I said that Miranda's office was one of the least egregious, not that her position was one of the least egregious. Also, my Shepard would want to circumvent Cerberus as much as possible, which means avoiding her. Also, not sure why she gets a queen bed.

EDIT: Re: the silicone resource allocation: Those aren't silicone, remember?

"Inspire Crew Loyalty"

Cerberus did proved not to be above these kind of indoctrination techniques...

Gives a new meaning to the "Crewmember of the month" award :smallredface:

[chiasaur11]

"Inspire Crew Loyalty"

Cerberus did proved not to be above these kind of indoctrination techniques...

Gives a new meaning to the "Crewmember of the month" award :smallredface:

What?

That's absurd!

That's Kelly's job.

[Xondoure]

What?

That's absurd!

That's Kelly's job.

Leaving this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTKr7fpiCfE) here.

[Gaius Marius]

What?

That's absurd!

That's Kelly's job.

Kelly is crewmember of the week.

Miranda, of the month :smalltongue:

[horngeek]

On the bunk beds: you actually only really need enough to have a third of the crew sleeping at any one time. Since only a single shift needs to be asleep at any one time. :smalltongue:

[Thanatos 51-50]

Agreed a bit. Let's take a look at the parts of SR-2:

- captain's quarters. Got nothing about that part. It's a capt's prerogative to have special quarter, and it's a relatively exposed part of the ship, so better not put essential ship components.

Essential Ship Components. Like the CO? That one is pretty essential.


- Bridge + cockpit. That's reasonable
- CiC: do seem to have a bit of wasted space. But then again, in a crisis, you might want to have lots of space for crewman to run in both direction without bumping into each other.
- Armory: it does seems oversized. But I have no idea how large an armory actually is.

For the record, the "I" stands for Information. There's no reason to make it lowercase.
The large, circular Star Map is the only real problem I see with the CIC, but that could be potentially useful if it were rigged to, say, project detailed topographical maps for important briefings, but isn't that what happens in the Comms room? The long neck of more consoles between the CIC and the helm is another slight issue of mine, but I guess that's me thinking the CIC should be near the keel of the ship and the helm topside, which is incongruous with a bloody space ship and/or possibly Turian design.


- laboratory. Except for the Northen part of the room with the upgrade consoles, it seems appropriate
- conference room/com room: meh. Wasted space, I'd say. Could be done 60% of available space. But it's judiciously located. Close to CiC, but privately located far from the crew's ears.

Lab could probably do with a cutting down, in my opinion, but I'm not too versed in cross-species genetics.
The Comms room is slightly redundant, but redundancy and a secured space for classified briefings is never a bad idea.


- crew quarters: okay
- bathrooms: useless waste of space to have 2 of them. Provides a funny joke once, but that's about it.
- observation rooms: horrible waste of space to have 2 of them. Although before being squatted by team members, might provide an appropriate R&R areas.
The Berths (What you referred to as "Crew Quarters" are monument to wasted space. Almost no coffins racks what you civilians call "beds" available. With the aforementioned small crew compliment, however, this is, potentially not a problem. It's nice to see the CO isn't picky about gender segregation.
The two separate heads er, "Bathrooms", is probably a holdover or a socially-mandated occurrence. Most modern warships have one head bathroom per berth crew living quarter. If anything, they don't have enough hygiene stations (Say, for example, showers), and only one head per gender stretched across four decks of ship? That's begging for trouble.
Observation decks aren't shabby, actually, I like the idea of two of them "To the port side of the ship is <Stellar Body>, to the Starboard is <Other stellar body>. Modern warships allow sailors up onto the weather decks, I don't see why this wouldn't be accounted for on a space-faring vessel. They could be smaller, though. Perhaps have some bulkheads walls moved so you can have properly sized heads bathrooms.


- life support: way oversized. Way too much wasted space there.
- miranda's office: waste. So much waste of perfectly good silicone..
- gunnery station: fine
- on the way to gunnery station: sleep pods? Why?!? Don't you have crew quarters?!
I'd like to hear more details about the "oversized" life-support compartment.
The XO (which, by the way, Miranda is) gets their own quarters, too. Most Officers only needs to share berth with one or two bunkmates on modern warships. Why should spaceships be different? (I'd also note that the SR-1 had the XO (And later, CO) quarters in the same location.
Sleeping Pods makes sense. Maybe your LADAR techs or other anonymous ratings need to "hot rack" it or "Collect Dark Matter Samples" occasionally. Plus, if you ever need a Marine contingent, it's right there. They could potentially double as escape/drop pods as well.


- eating room: that's actually fine in my book. The crew needs a "relax" location.
- sickbay: fine
- AI core: fine. This setup is what the Life Support shout have been. Cramped but functionnable.
Galley "eating room" is too small for the crew compliment, with no separate Officer's mess. This is a rather slapdash approach to a more communal, Socialist structure, and one that has no use on a military vessel. It's downright shameful in its current state.


The rest has been *snipp'd* for lack of commentary.

[Gaius Marius]

If you have a point to make beside nitpicking the details I went through the pain of mentionning before actually making MY point, please do so.

Otherwhise, you're nitpicking just for the sake of it, and it's a bit annoying.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Offering my take on your complaints, which was really just pointless nitpicking on your part?

So... participating?

"I believe the SR-2 is quite functional, really." would have probably sparked a "How so?"

[Gaius Marius]

Offering my take on your complaints, which was really just pointless nitpicking on your part?

So... participating?

"I believe the SR-2 is quite functional, really." would have probably sparked a "How so?"

So... you actually believe was a nicely designed ship, albeit could be made more efficiently?

Hmm.. you know, it'd be nice to have fan-made Normandy-2R designs.

Hell, I'd love to have a bit of ME3 played in a cruiser or a dreadnought.

[Landis963]

On the bunk beds: you actually only really need enough to have a third of the crew sleeping at any one time. Since only a single shift needs to be asleep at any one time. :smalltongue:

Which is why I was counting up the number of crewmembers: All the beds are empty, we can't see into the sleeper pods, and there are ~26 or so crewmembers awake, lucid enough to converse, and working at the same time. Explain THAT. :smalltongue:

[Landis963]

So... you actually believe was a nicely designed ship, albeit could be made more efficiently?

Hmm.. you know, it'd be nice to have fan-made Normandy-2R designs.

Hell, I'd love to have a bit of ME3 played in a cruiser or a dreadnought.

We do get a rail-shooter section and a gatling gun, does that work? (One of the E3 presentations, for the curious. Don't remember which one.)

[chiasaur11]

Which is why I was counting up the number of crewmembers: All the beds are empty, we can't see into the sleeper pods, and there are ~26 or so crewmembers awake, lucid enough to converse, and working at the same time. Explain THAT. :smalltongue:

Someone let Mordin make the coffee.

[Sarone]

Someone let Mordin make the coffee.

Mordin is recently taking measures to adapt coffee so that all species can get a good caffeeine buzz with out going into cardiac arrest, let alone problems caused by genetics/species biological barriers. After all, if all species can share a good cup of coffee, then galactic unity won't be too far away.

[Gaius Marius]

I'd prefer that sort of research over Mordin's agent self-termination research.

[Landis963]

Someone let Mordin make the coffee.

:smallbiggrin: I asked, and you answered.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

There's apparently only twenty-four crew on the SR-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxBUULUyBsY#t=10m00s), which seems odd to me. Jacob says that the only casualties of the SR-1 were Pressley and some of the lower crewmen, but at the crash site you find twenty dog tags, which is almost as much as the entire second crew.

So I guess the SR-2 is just horrendously understaffed.

[Dhavaer]

So I guess the SR-2 is just horrendously understaffed.

Maybe EDI makes things much more efficient?

[Leon]

Kelly is crewmember of the week.

Miranda, of the month :smalltongue:

4 weeks is better than a Month.

[Sarone]

Maybe EDI makes things much more efficient?

Non mission critcal systems being ran through EDI (before Joker plugged her in), plus key personel that weren't on board just or covered by the team (Captain, XO, Gunnery Chief, Chief Engineer, Armorer, Science Department), and the rest of the team being taking up the "marine" side of the house (despite that not being necessary, or, in the end, helpful as far as the crew is concerned). On one have, I'm not that surprised, since TIM also hired the best, brightest, and most wide skilled crewmen that believe that Cerberus is/was doing the right thing.

At least, that's my take on it.

[Dienekes]

Ehh I just assume TIM was going to fill up the ship only for all his candidates to die on the various science missions they were previously posted on.

[kamikasei]

There's apparently only twenty-four crew on the SR-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxBUULUyBsY#t=10m00s), which seems odd to me. Jacob says that the only casualties of the SR-1 were Pressley and some of the lower crewmen, but at the crash site you find twenty dog tags, which is almost as much as the entire second crew.

So I guess the SR-2 is just horrendously understaffed.
Apparently Kaidan can have a quote in the first game after you head to Ilos about the crew being "twenty-five mutineers". Honestly I'd say it makes the most sense to say both ships have about the same crew size, with the SR-2 more heavily automated (and full of ridiculous badass experts in each area, which helps), and the dogtags are just a gameplay artifact of the Crash Site DLC.

(Of course, you do then have the question of when any of them sleep...)

[Thanatos 51-50]

On the bunk beds: you actually only really need enough to have a third of the crew sleeping at any one time. Since only a single shift needs to be asleep at any one time. :smalltongue:


Which is why I was counting up the number of crewmembers: All the beds are empty, we can't see into the sleeper pods, and there are ~26 or so crewmembers awake, lucid enough to converse, and working at the same time. Explain THAT. :smalltongue:

Obviously, the Normandy SR-2 doesn't hot rack, which makes sense for a technically civilian vessel. The only modern warships that hot rack I can think of are submarines, and that's only because space is at more of a premium than usual. Probably one of the "Civilian comforts" Joker mentioned.


(Of course, you do then have the question of when any of them sleep...)

Artifact of the game environment. You don't think Shep really spends half an hour in port talking to all the crewmembers, hits a button on the Galaxy Map and then they've arrived instantly, do you? The meandering around the ship is a few week's worth of character development while traveling, and it's easier and more fluid to the player to do this important stuff this way than on a loading screen or an in-between-screen.

[Landis963]

New screenshots available on The Escapist! Of particular note is the Reaperized turian in the final shot, which the correspondent referred to as a "Giant Space Chicken." (To be fair to the correspondent, lopping off the bottom half of the turian's face, then giving the entire creature a forward slouch does give it that effect)

EDIT: and here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115045-New-Mass-Effect-3-Screens-Are-Mighty-Fowl) is the link.

[Marnath]

Galley "eating room" is too small for the crew compliment, with no separate Officer's mess. This is a rather slapdash approach to a more communal, Socialist structure, and one that has no use on a military vessel. It's downright shameful in its current state.

That's true. On a civilian vessel though it's not really remarkable.:smallbiggrin:


As for the CIC being wasted space because Shep spends all combat in the cockpit: that's more a quirk of the way he commands than it is a poor reflection on the design of the room.

I agree with whoever suggested that the SR2 is understaffed. Most of the consoles on the flight deck aren't even turned on, let alone manned. It's fine though since you don't technically need any of those people, especially after EDI takes over.

[Thanatos 51-50]

That's true. On a civilian vessel though it's not really remarkable.:smallbiggrin:


As for the CIC being wasted space because Shep spends all combat in the cockpit: that's more a quirk of the way he commands than it is a poor reflection on the design of the room.

I agree with whoever suggested that the SR2 is understaffed. Most of the consoles on the flight deck aren't even turned on, let alone manned. It's fine though since you don't technically need any of those people, especially after EDI takes over.

There is no flight deck. The Flight deck is where the aircraft launch from. The Normandy, as far as I'm aware doesn't have an attached fighter squadron. The closest thing they have to a flight deck is where the Kodiak/Hammerhead/Mako launches from.

Are you referring to the passageway connecting the CIC and the Bridge?

[Marnath]

There is no flight deck. The Flight deck is where the aircraft launch from. The Normandy, as far as I'm aware doesn't have an attached fighter squadron. The closest thing they have to a flight deck is where the Kodiak/Hammerhead/Mako launches from.

Are you referring to the passageway connecting the CIC and the Bridge?

Yeah, that. That one place between whats-his-name and whats-her-name that has all the flashing stuff. (I was in 10th grade before I even found out what port and starboard meant.:smalltongue:)

[kamikasei]

Artifact of the game environment. You don't think Shep really spends half an hour in port talking to all the crewmembers, hits a button on the Galaxy Map and then they've arrived instantly, do you? The meandering around the ship is a few week's worth of character development while traveling, and it's easier and more fluid to the player to do this important stuff this way than on a loading screen or an in-between-screen.
What I mean is simply that the crew we see presumably have to sleep some time, and so you'd expect there to be extra crew on the roster who are sleeping while the ones we always see are up and about. For the people we see standing around as we walk the ship in the game to be the entire crew complement all awake at the same time is strange, and is so independent of gameplay conventions, which don't require it. That we don't see the people on Shepard's schedule getting up or going to sleep is not surprising; that it's implied no one is on any different schedule is.

edit: Unless you mean the crew do work shifts but they're all presented as around at the same time to compress weeks of interaction taking place across all times of the day into handy chunks to play through... which, okay, I can see the sense in that but then it implies the ship's even more understaffed than it appeared at first because even the meager crew we see aren't all on duty at the same time.

[Psyren]

{{scrubbed}}


Maybe EDI makes things much more efficient?

She sure as hell does now. If you lose the whole crew she can still fly the ship; makes you wonder what those meatbags are even there for now, especially with TIM not signing everyone's checks anymore.

(Yeah, Liara can probably bankroll you, but would they even want that?)

[Gaius Marius]

{{scrubbed}}

[Landis963]

She sure as hell does now. If you lose the whole crew she can still fly the ship; makes you wonder what those meatbags are even there for now...

"License to screw up, Commander, you heard it straight from the ship." Basically, organics are relatively less predictable than AIs, which can be an advantage in a fight.


(Yeah, Liara can probably bankroll you, but would they even want that?)

Or is this the concern? Liara's newfound power is going straight to help the anti-Reaper war effort, and keeping a frigate full (or half-full :smalltongue:) of ex-Cerberus peons happy, not to mention the vanguard of the Anti-Reaper fleet/her possible boyfriend. It's money, and if they accepted it from TIM, they'll accept it from the Shadow Broker.

[Derthric]

Or is this the concern? Liara's newfound power is going straight to help the anti-Reaper war effort, and keeping a frigate full (or half-full :smalltongue:) of ex-Cerberus peons happy, not to mention the vanguard of the Anti-Reaper fleet/her possible boyfriend. It's money, and if they accepted it from TIM, they'll accept it from the Shadow Broker.

Most of the people on the ship show more loyalty to the mission and to Shepard than to the organization of Cerberus. And that was before whole "rescued from being liquified" thing Shepard pulls off. I think the Cerberus crew would be willing to stick with Shepard and get their checks from whoever he says is in charge. The real question is, if the Alliance gets the Normandy do they keep the crew around to shuffle em off to penal colonies and probation?

[Gaius Marius]

Most of the people on the ship show more loyalty to the mission and to Shepard than to the organization of Cerberus. And that was before whole "rescued from being liquified" thing Shepard pulls off. I think the Cerberus crew would be willing to stick with Shepard and get their checks from whoever he says is in charge. The real question is, if the Alliance gets the Normandy do they keep the crew around to shuffle em off to penal colonies and probation?

It depends on what Shepard will tell them to do.

I think the Alliance will shut up and do as asked if Shepard say "they are my crew"

[Landis963]

Most of the people on the ship show more loyalty to the mission and to Shepard than to the organization of Cerberus. And that was before whole "rescued from being liquified" thing Shepard pulls off. I think the Cerberus crew would be willing to stick with Shepard and get their checks from whoever he says is in charge.

I didn't say it would take much.


The real question is, if the Alliance gets the Normandy do they keep the crew around to shuffle em off to penal colonies and probation?

Shepard might have been able to argue them down to probation... before Arrival. Now he's persona non grata with the batarians, the Alliance is considering feeding him to them, and nobody besides Shepard knows what really happened on the Project's space station. He's tried to tell them, but time will tell if they listen to his report. At this point, it depends on the whims of the Alliance command where they end up.

[Fawkes]

So... is there a reason why the last two thread titles indirectly call the people posting whiners? It seems kind of insulting.

/whine

[Landis963]

So... is there a reason why the last two thread titles indirectly call the people posting whiners? It seems kind of insulting.

/whine

Have you been on the Bioware forums? At all? Ever? If so, you know exactly why. :smallsigh:

[Zevox]

Have you been on the Bioware forums? At all? Ever? If so, you know exactly why. :smallsigh:
These aren't the Bioware forums though.

Zevox

[Gaius Marius]

{{scrubbed}}

[Fawkes]

{{scrubbed}}

I just feel like it's setting a poor tone for the thread. Even if the thread was just a bunch of complaining (which I don't think it is, current post notwithstanding) that should be something we try to avoid, instead of just sort of resigning ourselves to it.

[Zevox]

{{scrubbed}}
Ah, so you failed to distinguish between discussion and whining. Pity.

Zevox

[Gaius Marius]

I just feel like it's setting a poor tone for the thread. Even if the thread was just a bunch of complaining (which I don't think it is, current post notwithstanding) that should be something we try to avoid, instead of just sort of resigning ourselves to it.

Fear not, if there are worthy suggestions for a new witty title, I shall happily take up one. Why is there in Dwarf Fortress or Warhammer threads, discussion of thread title always contains suggestions after suggestions, while here it is reduced to "it sucks"?


Ah, so you failed to distinguish between discussion and whining. Pity.

Zevox

Spare your condescending tone. I simply have higher standards of discussion than you do.

[Zorg]

Perhaps a better question would not be "why isn't there a funnier subtitle?", but "why does the thread (and every thread) need a subtitle at all?"



Spare your condescending tone. I simply have higher standards of discussion than you do.

My ironometer just exploded :smallsigh:

[Bouregard]

Which is why I was counting up the number of crewmembers: All the beds are empty, we can't see into the sleeper pods, and there are ~26 or so crewmembers awake, lucid enough to converse, and working at the same time. Explain THAT. :smalltongue:

Would you sleep on a ship with:

a mad scientist
a mad biotic
a mercenary with a ruthless moral code
a assassin
a thief
a genetical engineered krogan murder machine
a zombie
someone who kills people with sex and feels great about it?

.. oh and you will quite possible spend your last living moments on this ship because it is a suicide mission.

So Cerberos simply said: "You can't possible sleep on this ship so let's save the money and don't buy bedsnobody will use or survive using. Reviving Sheppard was already expensive enough"

[Gaius Marius]

Who is the zombie? The metalguy?

[Androgeus]

someone who kills people with sex and feels great about it?

it's a shame that everyone thinks she's just a vigilante who follows a strict code.


Who is the zombie? The metalguy?

Shepard, I think.

[Avilan the Grey]

someone who kills people with sex and feels great about it? A Chaotic Evil vampire IN SPACE

(fixed it for you).

[Gaius Marius]

it's a shame that everyone thinks she's just a vigilante who follows a strict code.



Shepard, I think.

Oh right. Make sense. I though it was a sligh at Jacob's expression :smalltongue:

Although there IS a Silicone Avatar that is overseeing the crew. That's scary.

[Bouregard]

Who is the zombie? The metalguy?

Poor Sheppard, someone dug up his body, ripped his soul from the great afterlife and with the help of cold and soulless electronics bounded it back to a charred, frozen and chopped up piece of flesh.

*g* strange how quickly people forget about the intro where you get ressurected.

Makes for a good Thread title: Commander Sheppard: The zombie will save us all"

Space vampire... sounds good and she sparcles too.

Oh and I really forgot about Legion? Yeah a few hundred homicidal A.I.s are also quite good at keeping you awake.

[Gaius Marius]

"Commander Shepard, Zombie Reaper-hunting Superstar"?

Nah.. Lacks proper wit. But good try :)

[Gaius Marius]

Oh and I really forgot about Legion? Yeah a few hundred homicidal A.I.s are also quite good at keeping you awake.

hundreds of AIs living right next to the single AI that controls the entire ship and love to see humans on their knees.

[Bouregard]

Life on the Normandy doesn't sound that great now.

Somehow this reminds me on a video from youtube: The worst possible Mass Effect savegame:

Heavy Spoiler for ME 1 + 2
Includes: Loosing every single crewmember except Thane (will die soon) and the space vampire. Sleeping with the extremly powerful Shadowbroker and then leaving her for Thane. Murdering of every species you can and picking fights with everyone you can. Promoting a good little war between Quarians and Robots. Also selling of the reaperbase to TIM.
What could possible go wrong?

I really need to try this "Let's play Mass Effect: Grimdark"


Update: I found it! Muharhar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsdFbkN4ppA

[Dienekes]

On a similar note, I once calculated out a game that would have everyone die except Morinth and Shepard (requires killing Zaeed on his loyalty mission after the Suicide Mission). On one hand I really want to see what will happen when you only have 1 companions, as well as how screwed this makes you for ME3, on the other I'm not up to doing another playthrough.

[Thanatos 51-50]

On a similar note, I once calculated out a game that would have everyone die except Morinth and Shepard (requires killing Zaeed on his loyalty mission after the Suicide Mission). On one hand I really want to see what will happen when you only have 1 companions, as well as how screwed this makes you for ME3, on the other I'm not up to doing another playthrough.

The game won't let you proceed with less than two party members.

[Dienekes]

The game won't let you proceed with less than two party members.

Interesting, but since that's after the suicide mission I don't think that matters. so long as I can use that file for ME3

[Bouregard]

The game won't let you proceed with less than two party members.

Can you clarify that? Can't you off Zaed then? Or is there some popup that says "sorry you have under two crewmembers please reload"

[Zevox]

I've actually been considering doing a FailShep file myself sometime between now and the release of ME3. I've already gone through my Christmas gift console games, so I have a couple of months now to play through games in my backlog or replay games, and I think a new Mass Effect file would be good to play right before the release of 3.

I'm pretty sure there's been a guide for how to do a FailShep to its fullest that has been linked in these threads in the past - anybody still have the link to that by any chance?

Zevox

[Fawkes]

Can you clarify that? Can't you off Zaed then? Or is there some popup that says "sorry you have under two crewmembers please reload"

I think it just doesn't give you the option to kill Zaaed.

[Androgeus]

This amused me greatly.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/406967_342312429129696_136219176405690_1242266_163 1078898_n.jpg

[Giggling Ghast]

This talented artist (http://amales.deviantart.com/art/Mass-ferret-278343187) has too much time on her hands.

(Sorry, I don't know how to post Deviantart images.)

[Edge]

This (http://www.xbox360achievements.org/news/news-10520-KoA--Reckoning-and-Mass-Effect-3-Demos-Each-Bring-Exclusive-DLC.html) might be of some interest to some.

That armour sounds pretty snazzy for Vanguards.

[Zevox]

This (http://www.xbox360achievements.org/news/news-10520-KoA--Reckoning-and-Mass-Effect-3-Demos-Each-Bring-Exclusive-DLC.html) might be of some interest to some.

That armour sounds pretty snazzy for Vanguards.
Just heard about this too. I was already going to play the demo for Kingdoms of Amalur, so this is just a bonus for me. Don't know whether I'll actually get KoA (that's kind of why I'm going to play the demo), so whether the bonus from playing the ME3 demo will apply to me is up in the air though.

Zevox

[Edge]

Just heard about this too. I was already going to play the demo for Kingdoms of Amalur, so this is just a bonus for me. Don't know whether I'll actually get KoA (that's kind of why I'm going to play the demo), so whether the bonus from playing the ME3 demo will apply to me is up in the air though.

Zevox

Yeah, I'm kinda undecided on Amalur myself. It looks pretty good from what I've seen, but I will need to see how it actually handles.

[Derthric]

I've already pre-ordered both games so going through the demo's for this won't put me off. However I wonder how well integrated the item retrieval is going to be. I never got my blood dragon armor in ME2 because it was such a hassle transferring the PC code to my 360. Thats always my problem with this cross game promotions.

[Zevox]

So, some important news about the PC version of ME3. It will require (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8975536/1) EA's Steam-like client, Origin, even for the physical retail copies. Though apparently it won't require a constant connection to Origin (except for the online multiplayer), just a one-time activation code.

Doesn't impact me since I'm a console player, but could be very important for PC gamers, since there's apparently some controversy over this whole Origin thing.

Zevox

[Talya]

So, some important news about the PC version of ME3. It will require (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8975536/1) EA's Steam-like client, Origin, even for the physical retail copies. Though apparently it won't require a constant connection to Origin (except for the online multiplayer), just a one-time activation code.

Doesn't impact me since I'm a console player, but could be very important for PC gamers, since there's apparently some controversy over this whole Origin thing.

Zevox

Once again, people who pay to play legally get screwed, and pirates get the better gaming experience.

[memnarch]

Once again, people who pay to play legally get screwed, and pirates get the better gaming experience.

Just the way it works for some reason. :smallfrown:


Well, I'll either borrow my friend's xbox360 and play it once he's done, or I'll wait for it to show up on steam (might not, I know). If it does show up; it'll probably be a bit cheaper anyway.

[Derthric]

Once again, people who pay to play legally get screwed, and pirates get the better gaming experience.

I apologize if this seems to come across in an accusatory fashion, but really if the DRM being used is steam or origin, is it really making it a lesser gaming experience? Granted the only thing I have used Origin for is SW:ToR but Steam hasn't been detrimental to my enjoyment of any games on its service.

I understand being pushed into something like this is insulting, and the indignation one feels at the action is justified imo. But to say it ruins the gameplay itself? I don't get it.

[horngeek]

My only potential problem is the fact that my D: drive is far, far bigger than my (nearly full) C: drive, so if Origin forces me to install on the C: drive, I've got to uninstall stuff first, which will be a pain...

Since the games I have left on C: are mostly Steam, so I can't transfer them over. Only stuff I can think of that's not Steam is Civ IV (bit nervous about trying to uninstall/reinstall that, since last time I tried I screwed it up majorly to the point where I couldn't get it working again until the computer had the hard drive replaced) and, ironically, ME/ME2.

:smallsigh:

[Avilan the Grey]

I apologize if this seems to come across in an accusatory fashion, but really if the DRM being used is steam or origin, is it really making it a lesser gaming experience?

I agree with this; I have never understood the argument.

[Sarone]

Is it confirmed that the demo won't be out until February 14th?

If so, that's not alot of time for the Demo.

[Zorg]

A lot of people have an issue with Origin in that its EULA is very vague and yet very restrictive. For instance it says they can scan any and all files on your computer and distribute that information to anyone they want. And if you try anything to prevent this they could class that as trying to circumvent the DRM (even if you're just trying to circumvent the scanning) and remotely disable your Origin account, and by extension your games.
This includes things like running Origin on a virtual drive so it has only itself to scan, and the Bioware forums have been deleting posts and threads talking about this idea, as well as others on the subject of 'isolating' Origin.

Now EA say that Origin will only scan for Origin related files to see what your using most and the like, but that the EULA doesn't restrict them makes a lot of people leery of it. Oh, and the EULA also contains a waiver preventing you from any legal action against EA due to anything related to Origin (like if someone hacks it and uses its scanning ability to steal your identity, or EA uses it for some purpose it shouldn't).

The EULA has been changed a couple of times, and Germans get a different version due them kicking up a huge stink about it.

Steam has an opt-out on installation on the scanning.

So the issue isn't so much the DRM, as the other things Origin could be doing or be used for- not to mention its another program to install that I'm never going to use and could really do without. I just want to put the damn disk in and play the game already!

[Zevox]

Is it confirmed that the demo won't be out until February 14th?

If so, that's not alot of time for the Demo.
That's not unusual. Most demos release just two or three weeks before the actual game in my experience.

Zevox

[JadedDM]

So, some important news about the PC version of ME3. It will require (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/8975536/1) EA's Steam-like client, Origin, even for the physical retail copies. Though apparently it won't require a constant connection to Origin (except for the online multiplayer), just a one-time activation code.

Doesn't impact me since I'm a console player, but could be very important for PC gamers, since there's apparently some controversy over this whole Origin thing.

Zevox

SecuROM stopped me from buying the first game, and this will stop me from buying the third game. Ah, well. Such is life. You just lost another sale EA. Good job.

[Avilan the Grey]

A lot of people have an issue with Origin in that its EULA is very vague and yet very restrictive. For instance it says they can scan any and all files on your computer and distribute that information to anyone they want. And if you try anything to prevent this they could class that as trying to circumvent the DRM (even if you're just trying to circumvent the scanning) and remotely disable your Origin account, and by extension your games.
This includes things like running Origin on a virtual drive so it has only itself to scan, and the Bioware forums have been deleting posts and threads talking about this idea, as well as others on the subject of 'isolating' Origin.

Yes, this is a little over the top, but nothing that would even remotely stop me from buying the game.
I admit I have never paid attention to EULAs, mostly because according to the actual law, they are not legally binding (I live in Sweden). Admittedly this has never been tried in court, but the way they are written they are not legal contracts.

Anyway, about the scanning...I assume what they claim they do is user statistics for Origin (basically "what games do you play the most", "what DLCs does he have" and similar things). Also, if Origin still works the same way in Germany as in the rest of the world, and their more restricted EULA still covers it, then that means that as long as Origin doesn't go beyond what they claim in the German EULA, it will also be following the same restrictions here.

[Cristo Meyers]

So, who wants to meet the voice of James Vega?

Anyone? Anyone?

Here you go, Freddie Prinze Jr. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/james-vega-mass-effect/726003?) talks about voicing James Vega and Mass Effect 3.

Also some new gameplay footage in there too, worth watching even if you don't really give a damn about the character.

[Yana]

Was that an asari based husk that I spotted in there?

[Mukora]

Yep. That's the... Banshee, I believe.

[Landis963]

Also, the Thorian made a blink-n-you'll-miss-it cameo. I wonder how it feels about Organics, since it apparently survived Feros.

[Marnath]

Also, the Thorian made a blink-n-you'll-miss-it cameo. I wonder how it feels about Organics, since it apparently survived Feros.

Plants are organic too.:smalltongue:

[Landis963]

Plants are organic too.:smalltongue:

heh heh heh :smallannoyed: You know what I mean. Besides, I'm fairly certain the Thorian doesn't think of itself as "organic", not in the way everyone else in the Mass Effect galaxy thinks of "organic."


"Invaders! Your every step is a transgression. A thousand feelers appraise you as meat, good only to dig or decompose."

[Psyren]

Can you clarify that? Can't you off Zaed then? Or is there some popup that says "sorry you have under two crewmembers please reload"

The conversation option to leave him in the flames won't appear.

[Zorg]

Two new squadmates revealed:

*MASSIVE SPOILERS obviously*

Text (http://thegamershub.net/2012/01/two-new-mass-effect-squad-mates-discovered/)

Pic1 (http://i.imgur.com/1vPVo.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/chassan1/scan0001.jpg)


#1 isn't that much of a surprise, but #2 certainly is:

Love Joker's look in the line art! :smallbiggrin:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

They really amped the fanservice to eleven, didn't they?

[Zorg]

One suspects one of the first outfit pack DLCs might be some pants and a shirt...


Multiplayer video. (http://youtu.be/5u560s3QAls) So sweet... and they've upped the gore - exploding headshots! Is it bad I want the to be Conrad at 0:34? He'd make a great SpecFor soldier, for he knows what it is to be truely extreme.

[Xondoure]

Two new squadmates revealed:

*MASSIVE SPOILERS obviously*

Text (http://thegamershub.net/2012/01/two-new-mass-effect-squad-mates-discovered/)

Pic1 (http://i.imgur.com/1vPVo.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/chassan1/scan0001.jpg)


#1 isn't that much of a surprise, but #2 certainly is:

Love Joker's look in the line art! :smallbiggrin:

I... Can't believe I was right about #2. I'm never right about wild speculation. *does a little dance.*

[Tome]

We get a Prothean? Hells yeah. :smallbiggrin:

I can just see my team for most of the game being made up of Legion, EDI and the Prothean in some combination. I just hope that the interesting ones don't get given to you right before the end of the game, like Legion was.

[Landis963]

Two new squadmates revealed:

*MASSIVE SPOILERS obviously*

Text (http://thegamershub.net/2012/01/two-new-mass-effect-squad-mates-discovered/)

Pic1 (http://i.imgur.com/1vPVo.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/chassan1/scan0001.jpg)


#1 isn't that much of a surprise, but #2 certainly is:

Love Joker's look in the line art! :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek: Wow those are some high-caliber spoilers.

[Zevox]

Multiplayer video. (http://youtu.be/5u560s3QAls) So sweet... and they've upped the gore - exploding headshots!
Ugh. I really hope that's not in the main game. Excessive gore was one of my complaints about the Dragon Age games, I really don't want it to get carried into Mass Effect as well...

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Two new squadmates revealed:

*MASSIVE SPOILERS obviously*

Text (http://thegamershub.net/2012/01/two-new-mass-effect-squad-mates-discovered/)

Pic1 (http://i.imgur.com/1vPVo.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/chassan1/scan0001.jpg)

Both of those seem ridiculous to me. The first for obvious reasons, the second because it just makes me shake my head and wonder why.

Also, the gore really doesn't bother me either way. It's not all that graphic really, and I probably wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't pointed out. Unlike Dragon Age where hitting someone with a sword made them blow up. I just don't want each race to be pegged into a specific class as the trailer presented. If I play a Krogan I want to be a Vanguard, because that would be the scariest charge ever.

[Marnath]

How is is #2 even going to work? :smallconfused:

A.I.'s can't be moved from their original hardware without completely altering their personality. At least according to the codex.

[Thanatos 51-50]

How is is #2 even going to work? :smallconfused:

A.I.'s can't be moved from their original hardware without completely altering their personality. At least according to the codex.

Remote Control?

[Toastkart]

Both of those seem ridiculous to me. The first for obvious reasons, the second because it just makes me shake my head and wonder why.

Totally agreed. Both are uninteresting and unnecessary.

On the subject of these characters' appearances.
Also, if that prothean looks more like a collector than those statues on Ilos, what the heck are those statues on Ilos supposed to be? While it's clear that they were attempting fanservice for Edi's body, it still manages to look pretty ugly to me.

[Marnath]

Totally agreed. Both are uninteresting and unnecessary.

On the subject of these characters' appearances.
Also, if that prothean looks more like a collector than those statues on Ilos, what the heck are those statues on Ilos supposed to be?

Abstract art I assume.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Regarding #2
It looks to me that EDI is trying to *look like* an Asari, which is... interesting.

[Psyren]

My dream of romancing the Normandy is one step closer to realization :smallbiggrin:

Tangent: I get that these are big spoilers and all, but doesn't it make sense that anyone in this thread doesn't care about having their ME3 experience be untainted?

[Dienekes]

Tangent: I get that these are big spoilers and all, but doesn't it make sense that anyone in this thread doesn't care about having their ME3 experience be untainted?

Sort of. But I'd prefer if the spoilers stay as I'm cherry picking them. The only information I'm ok having spoilered for me are game play, art and companion design. Anything that mentions the plot is avoided like the plague.

Also, it's not like spoilers are that much an annoyance, all you have to do is push a button.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

My dream of romancing the Normandy is one step closer to realization :smallbiggrin:


I do wonder whether EDI will be a romance option... I'd probably pursue it just to see Joker's reaction :smallbiggrin:

Then again, considering the sheer amount of sex-appeal she's trying to ooze, 'yes' seems the obvious answer.



Tangent: I get that these are big spoilers and all, but doesn't it make sense that anyone in this thread doesn't care about having their ME3 experience be untainted?

I agree with you, but since there isn't a big, fat [SPOILERS] tag in the thread title it's probably best to err on the side of caution.

[Cristo Meyers]

Totally agreed. Both are uninteresting and unnecessary.


I'm tending to agree. The first wasn't even a surprise for me. Remember that DLC that disappeared from the Collector's Edition list of bonuses?
Ah well, there's always been characters I just don't care about, why should the third be any different?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Tangent: I get that these are big spoilers and all, but doesn't it make sense that anyone in this thread doesn't care about having their ME3 experience be untainted?

Not at all, I actually just come here to talk about the games in general (since the thread for Mass Effect 2 has been subsumed into this one), speculate about the game, and debate various points in the series. Spoilers enters into things very little for me, I'm actually trying to avoid spoilering big things for myself like who all the new team-mates will be and all that.

[Hawkfrost000]

Since ME2 had a Collectors edition, will ME3 have a Reapers edition?

It should

DM

[Mukora]

So the new book, Deception, is out.

It's hilariously bad. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/edit?pli=1)

[Zevox]

Hm, so with those two newly-revealed characters, how many squadmates does everyone guess might remain? The five/six (depending on whether you count Ash/Kaiden as one or two, since they're both in but you only get one of them per file) we had before seemed a bit small, especially since all of the returning ones were from ME1, but upping that to seven/eight is getting more full. If memory serves a glimpse that we got of the art book in a video promoting the special edition of the game showed a new design for Jack, possibly indicating that she could be a companion as well, which would put us at eight/nine, which would be a good number I think.

Still, I can't help feeling that the almost complete lack of returning companions from ME2 seems odd. I'd have expected to see at least a couple, whether they be romance options like Miranda and Jacob or fan favorites like Mordin. This leads me to hope that there's still another one or two waiting to be revealed, though with less certainty about it than I had before the recent reveals.

Zevox

[horngeek]

Remember, they did specifically say they wanted less squadmates so that they could focus more on each one.

[Landis963]

Also, such a widespread threat as the Reaper invasion necessitates a diaspora of the ME2 squaddies, so that they can all do what they do best in order to combat the Reapers (Mordin fixing the genophage comes to mind, as does Tali and Legion trying to broker peace between ). The only reason you still have Ashley/Kaidan is because you are specifically assigned to them.

[Psyren]

It's also just plain easier to program to take into account all the weird cases where people, say, killed everyone but Jack and Morinth, or killed all the aliens or something. It's a bit of a cop-out, but I think they painted themselves into a corner with that suicide mission and all the possible permutations.

[Zevox]

Also, such a widespread threat as the Reaper invasion necessitates a diaspora of the ME2 squaddies, so that they can all do what they do best in order to combat the Reapers (Mordin fixing the genophage comes to mind, as does Tali and Legion trying to broker peace between ). The only reason you still have Ashley/Kaidan is because you are specifically assigned to them.
You still have Garrus and Tali as well, plus Liara even though you'd think she would be busy being the Shadow Broker. I don't think that's a big deal - it wouldn't stretch credulity at all for most or all of ME2's companions to stick with you, and even those that would likely have something else to do could be picked up after a mission where they finish whatever they're up to.


It's also just plain easier to program to take into account all the weird cases where people, say, killed everyone but Jack and Morinth, or killed all the aliens or something. It's a bit of a cop-out, but I think they painted themselves into a corner with that suicide mission and all the possible permutations.
That's not that big of a problem unless they had too many returning ME2 characters, which would leave you with too few companions if you killed all the returning ones. Considering that so far we have five announced companions guaranteed not to be dead, I don't think that's a problem.

Zevox

[Psyren]

That's not that big of a problem unless they had too many returning ME2 characters, which would leave you with too few companions if you killed all the returning ones. Considering that so far we have five announced companions guaranteed not to be dead, I don't think that's a problem.

Too few companions isn't the only problem; it means more complexity in general, as they have to make a trigger for if person A survived so you can re-recruit them, a trigger for if A died instead, a trigger for if they survived but were disloyal, conversation triggers with other survivors etc.

And unless I'm mistaken, the only expendable ME2 squadmates confirmed so far as ME3 squadmates are Tali and Garrus, right? The others (Liara, James, VS, and the two spoiled above) were either not playable in ME2, or unkillable in ME2.

[Knight13]

(Mordin fixing the genophage comes to mind
I don't know why everybody seems to think that curing the genophage would help against the Reapers. Even if Mordin did somehow come up with an instant cure (unlikely, he said the cure was still years away from completion), the Krogan simply don't have time to breed new warriors.

[Zevox]

Too few companions isn't the only problem; it means more complexity in general, as they have to make a trigger for if person A survived so you can re-recruit them, a trigger for if A died instead, a trigger for if they survived but were disloyal, conversation triggers with other survivors etc.

And unless I'm mistaken, the only expendable ME2 squadmates confirmed so far as ME3 squadmates are Tali and Garrus, right? The others (Liara, James, VS, and the two spoiled above) were either not playable in ME2, or unkillable in ME2.
I doubt whether they were loyal or not will matter at all honestly, and most of that applies just as much to having them appear in the game at all, and we know that's going to happen.

Anyway, I've started up a new file - I was planning on doing this a little later to try and finish up just before or as ME3 releases, but I found that I didn't feel like playing the remaining games in my backlog just now, so I went ahead and did it now. It's going to be a FailShep - literally, I named him "Fail Sheperd" :smallbiggrin: . Gave him a goofy face too - his head is practically rectangular, he has bright blonde hair, a silly moustache, and weird nose. Kinda looks like Hulk Hogan with less hair actually. I made him an Adept since I haven't played one of those since my first file, and because I don't want to play a Soldier, which is both the only class I haven't played and the one I'd be most inclined to consider appropriate for a FailShep.

I'm also playing on Hardcore difficulty for the first time with this. I don't know if I'll do that in ME2 as well, since ME2 is the more difficult game to begin with, but I figured I'd take a shot at it since ME1 hasn't been at all hard my last couple play-throughs.

Not too much for me to worry about screwing up in the first game I think - get Wrex killed and act all renegade pretty much covers everything I can think of - but I'm going to need to look up a guide on how to do a FailShep for ME2...

Zevox

[Landis963]

I doubt whether they were loyal or not will matter at all honestly, and most of that applies just as much to having them appear in the game at all, and we know that's going to happen.

You're probably right about this, now that I think about it. Even if you blew their loyalty missions, any line changes would still reflect you having done it.


Not too much for me to worry about screwing up in the first game I think - get Wrex killed and act all renegade pretty much covers everything I can think of - but I'm going to need to look up a guide on how to do a FailShep for ME2...

Zevox

Don't forget to kill all the Feros colonists, kill the rachni queen, and stick your gun in Verner's face!

If you're OK with having your ME2 play time be substantially shorter:
Just skip over all the loyalty missions you can't blow (that would be everyone except Thane, Tali, and Zaeed, as I recall). Also, do one other loyalty mission of your choice and Samara's, although that last should probably only be if you managed to max out your Renegade bar (as that's the only way to get Morinth) That'll do most of the work for you, as most of the Suicide Mission checks deal with loyalty. However, if you don't have a full Renegade bar for Morinth, then pick one other loyalty mission. Make sure the two whose loyalty missions you did stay alive until the final boss rush (save scumming is recommended, especially during the long walk), then pick them as your squad at the end. If the suicide mission does its work correctly, those two will be the only ones left, and you will have enough of a complement to save your sorry backside at the end. The trick is just getting it down to two people. As for the non-squad, just do the derelict Reaper as you get it, and just do sidequests until a couple missions after the Collector invasion.

If not, then yeah, you'll need a guide.

[Psyren]

I doubt whether they were loyal or not will matter at all honestly, and most of that applies just as much to having them appear in the game at all, and we know that's going to happen.

Regardless, my point stands - the more returning faces we have as squadmates (instead of as NPCs) then the more complicated Bioware's job gets. So keeping as much of the returning cast in the wings as possible makes the game itself easier to make.

[Sarone]

Regardless, my point stands - the more returning faces we have as squadmates (instead of as NPCs) then the more complicated Bioware's job gets. So keeping as much of the returning cast in the wings as possible makes the game itself easier to make.

It's the old conundrum: make a game cheap, good, or on time. Pick any of the two.

Basically, it sounds like Bioware is going for time (granted, the game was pushed back a few times, but it wasn't that big of a push), so the question is either price or quality.

If they went for trying to keep the price down, then how good is the game going to be? Are they burnning all their energy on the Multiplayer? Is the game going sate our appetites?

If they went for quality, how much is it costing them? Between this and SWTOR, Bioware is taking a huge risk financially and in reputation.

To me, those will be the defining points. I'm just waiting for the DEMO to come out so I can make a reasonable decision about how highend of a desktop I'm going to need.

[Zorg]

Are they burnning all their energy on the Multiplayer?

Multiplayer is being handled by a seperate division, so the main team haven't been needing to split resources to get it done.

[Zevox]

Don't forget to kill all the Feros colonists, kill the rachni queen, and stick your gun in Verner's face!
Yep, like I said, "act all renegade" covers most of it. :smallsmile:


If you're OK with having your ME2 play time be substantially shorter:
Just skip over all the loyalty missions you can't blow (that would be everyone except Thane, Tali, and Zaeed, as I recall). Also, do one other loyalty mission of your choice and Samara's, although that last should probably only be if you managed to max out your Renegade bar (as that's the only way to get Morinth) That'll do most of the work for you, as most of the Suicide Mission checks deal with loyalty. However, if you don't have a full Renegade bar for Morinth, then pick one other loyalty mission. Make sure the two whose loyalty missions you did stay alive until the final boss rush (save scumming is recommended, especially during the long walk), then pick them as your squad at the end. If the suicide mission does its work correctly, those two will be the only ones left, and you will have enough of a complement to save your sorry backside at the end. The trick is just getting it down to two people. As for the non-squad, just do the derelict Reaper as you get it, and just do sidequests until a couple missions after the Collector invasion.

If not, then yeah, you'll need a guide.
I was figuring that the only loyalty quest I'd do would be Miranda's (I intend on romancing her, since she's the only character I have any interest in romancing that I haven't romanced yet in another file) and Kaumi's (I want that SMG), but I had forgotten about the loyalty quests you can fail to obtain loyalties from, so I'll probably do those as well now that you mention them. The bigger question will be how I set up the "hold the line" segment to kill anyone that doesn't die before then, since you can only kill so many before that point (3 for lacking ship upgrades, 1 in the vents, 1 as fire team leader, 1 as escort for survivors, 1 in the biotic barrier segment), and there are a lot of companions in this game. I know I've seen a guide to the "hold the line" part before, and there's some invisible math involved in determine who lives and dies that I'll need to watch.

Now that I think of it, on the romancing part, which seems more appropriate for a FailShep: no romance in 1, romance Miranda in 2 but get her killed; or romance Liara in 1 and Miranda in 2, then botch up the love triangle resolution as badly as possible in 3? Hard to pick without knowing how love triangles will resolve, but I'm going to have to decide while still playing 1 so I can properly flirt with or turn down Liara.

Zevox

[GungHo]

Now that I think of it, on the romancing part, which seems more appropriate for a FailShep: no romance in 1, romance Miranda in 2 but get her killed; or romance Liara in 1 and Miranda in 2, then botch up the love triangle resolution as badly as possible in 3? Hard to pick without knowing how love triangles will resolve, but I'm going to have to decide while still playing 1 so I can properly flirt with or turn down Liara.

Zevox
Go chat up Ash instead of Liara, but save Kaiden instead. Get Miranda killed in 2. Queue up "All Out of Love".

[Zevox]

Go chat up Ash instead of Liara, but save Kaiden instead. Get Miranda killed in 2. Queue up "All Out of Love".
I was already going to do the former (can't have a FailShep where Kaiden dies and Ashley lives after all) - that's why I specified Liara instead of Ashley as the romance for 1. Still leaves me torn on whether or not to go for a botched love triangle.

Zevox

[Landis963]

I was figuring that the only loyalty quest I'd do would be Miranda's (I intend on romancing her, since she's the only character I have any interest in romancing that I haven't romanced yet in another file) and Kaumi's (I want that SMG), but I had forgotten about the loyalty quests you can fail to obtain loyalties from, so I'll probably do those as well now that you mention them. The bigger question will be how I set up the "hold the line" segment to kill anyone that doesn't die before then, since you can only kill so many before that point (3 for lacking ship upgrades, 1 in the vents, 1 as fire team leader, 1 as escort for survivors, 1 in the biotic barrier segment), and there are a lot of companions in this game. I know I've seen a guide to the "hold the line" part before, and there's some invisible math involved in determine who lives and dies that I'll need to watch.

Just make sure that Thane, Zaeed, and Grunt die before them, as they have the highest non-loyal inputs to that invisible math. At least I think Grunt.


Now that I think of it, on the romancing part, which seems more appropriate for a FailShep: no romance in 1, romance Miranda in 2 but get her killed; or romance Liara in 1 and Miranda in 2, then botch up the love triangle resolution as badly as possible in 3? Hard to pick without knowing how love triangles will resolve, but I'm going to have to decide while still playing 1 so I can properly flirt with or turn down Liara.

Zevox

Romance both her and Ashley, then go for the threesome option when it comes up. Both will turn you down. (note that this does not appear as FemShep: Kaidan assumes you're lesbian and backs off, as I recall) Also, romance then kill Miranda in ME2, less is left to chance for ME3.

[Androgeus]

Someone actually made a fail shep guide (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1165725)

If you want hold the line details see here (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2933016)

[Zevox]

Romance both her and Ashley, then go for the threesome option when it comes up. Both will turn you down.
I'm pretty sure I can't do that if I kill Ashley though, which I intend to do - doesn't the event where they confront you over that occur after Virmire?


Someone actually made a fail shep guide (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1165725)

If you want hold the line details see here (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2933016)
Ah, thank you very much - those shall certainly come in handy. :smallsmile:

Zevox

[Psyren]

Romance both her and Ashley, then go for the threesome option when it comes up. Both will turn you down. (note that this does not appear as FemShep: Kaidan assumes you're lesbian and backs off, as I recall) Also, romance then kill Miranda in ME2, less is left to chance for ME3.

IIRC, Ashley dumps you but Liara sticks around.

[Mukora]

I figure everyone saw me post this already, but can't hurt to post it again:

This is how bad Mass Effect: Deception (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/edit?pli=1) is.

[Landis963]

So Gillian, over the course of the book,


Gets a super ship
Can use her biotics without cooldown
Gets new biotic implants without any of the consequences it would have in canon or reality (especially since it's in a non-medical facility) (?)
After getting said implants, she is able to use Spectre and Justicar level biotic abilities (!)
Can sense biotic ability in others (!?!)
Is magically cured of her autism between books
Claims that other children bullied her
Engages in "asari air kisses." (?!?)


:smallyuk: Is it too late to call in the PPC?

[Xondoure]

I figure everyone saw me post this already, but can't hurt to post it again:

This is how bad Mass Effect: Deception (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBpMF3ONlI308D9IGG8KICBHfWKU0sXh0ntukv-_cmo/edit?pli=1) is.

Seems to me it's called deception because it's all a lie.

[Sarone]

A good example of when an author does not do their research and tries to go counter to established, especially official lore.

The question is, by itself, how is the book?

[LordShotGun]

A lot of people have an issue with Origin in that its EULA is very vague and yet very restrictive. For instance it says they can scan any and all files on your computer and distribute that information to anyone they want. And if you try anything to prevent this they could class that as trying to circumvent the DRM (even if you're just trying to circumvent the scanning) and remotely disable your Origin account, and by extension your games.
This includes things like running Origin on a virtual drive so it has only itself to scan, and the Bioware forums have been deleting posts and threads talking about this idea, as well as others on the subject of 'isolating' Origin.

Now EA say that Origin will only scan for Origin related files to see what your using most and the like, but that the EULA doesn't restrict them makes a lot of people leery of it. Oh, and the EULA also contains a waiver preventing you from any legal action against EA due to anything related to Origin (like if someone hacks it and uses its scanning ability to steal your identity, or EA uses it for some purpose it shouldn't).

The EULA has been changed a couple of times, and Germans get a different version due them kicking up a huge stink about it.

Steam has an opt-out on installation on the scanning.

So the issue isn't so much the DRM, as the other things Origin could be doing or be used for- not to mention its another program to install that I'm never going to use and could really do without. I just want to put the damn disk in and play the game already!


Wow. Just...wow. I kinda already knew about most of this, but the invasion of privacy of my computer is just too much. At least steam has an opt out policy but now I really can't see myself buying this game until it comes out on steam (you know it will eventually). I guess I will just watch a lets play or something like I did for ME1 due to the securdisk fiasco.

[Psyren]

Given that you can mod the Xbox game (somewhat) I see no reason to have anything to do with Origin at all.

Or I may just wait until ME is on OnLive or something.

[Androgeus]

I really can't see myself buying this game until it comes out on steam (you know it will eventually).

It won't be on Steam untill/when Origin fails.

[LordShotGun]

It won't be on Steam untill/when Origin fails.

I think EA missed the steam memo about the way to combat piracy is to offer a better service then the pirates can. I would not hesitate for a second if ME3 was on steam I trust valve simply because of the people they hire.

[Mukora]

The question is, by itself, how is the book?
Still horrible.

[Illieas]

/breaking information black out

New trailer is out voice actor trailer

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG9otVyV6GI&feature=g-logo&context=G244ed2dFOAAAAAAACAA)


so we got a new hot chick. named Diana Allers. wonder if she is romancable :smallamused:


/reinitiating information black out

[Zevox]

/breaking information black out

New trailer is out voice actor trailer

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG9otVyV6GI&feature=g-logo&context=G244ed2dFOAAAAAAACAA)


so we got a new hot chick. named Diana Allers. wonder if she is romancable :smallamused:


/reinitiating information black out
Saw that. Kind of nice, but they didn't give each VA much time to talk, and it sounded like they were instructed to spent half of their time advertising the game rather than discussing their role in it.

As for the new girl, I'm guessing she'll be like Kelly was in ME2. An assistant sort on the Normandy, possibly romanceable, but probably won't qualify as an official romance.
Zevox

[Psyren]

Saw that. Kind of nice, but they didn't give each VA much time to talk, and it sounded like they were instructed to spent half of their time advertising the game rather than discussing their role in it.

I'll take a less cynical stance, and say instead that they all were asked what they thought of the game, the majority started gushing, and that segment was used in the spot.

Not quite the same as instructing them to be excited :smalltongue:

(Though I'm sure, being accomplished actors, they could manage that on cue. But here I am undermining my own point.)


As for the new girl, I'm guessing she'll be like Kelly was in ME2. An assistant sort on the Normandy, possibly romanceable, but probably won't qualify as an official romance.
Zevox

Interesting thought. Was she in the promo stuff/trailers for ME2?

[Zevox]

Interesting thought. Was she in the promo stuff/trailers for ME2?
Not sure. I didn't play Mass Effect 1 until just a couple of months before 2, and I didn't watch any of the promo stuff for 2 even after finishing 1 since I wasn't impressed enough by 1 to be hugely anticipating 2, so I wouldn't know.

Zevox

[Mukora]

This may or may not come from official sources, I heard it from a friend:

The new chick is a news reporter who's been assigned to stay with Shep on the Normandy... for some reason.

[Fawkes]

This may or may not come from official sources, I heard it from a friend:

The new chick is a news reporter who's been assigned to stay with Shep on the Normandy... for some reason.

I've had enough of these snide insinuations.

[Landis963]

This may or may not come from official sources, I heard it from a friend:

The new chick is a news reporter who's been assigned to stay with Shep on the Normandy... for some reason.

Darn, I'm too late for the Khalisah al-Jilani joke. As for why she's there, probably everyone pulled strings to have her not be in their hair and she got stuck with (ironically) the one commander where half the scoops are going to come from.

[Zorg]

Someone on the Bioware Social forums made a collage of all the in-trailer FemShep moments:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7739/femshepingamecollage.jpg

There are also some nice new screenshots up on the Mass Effect 3 website:

Diane Allers
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-046-p.jpg

Liara looking cute
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-050-p.jpg

Anderson looking 'ard
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-047-p.jpg

[Callos_DeTerran]

Wait, who's Diane Allers?

[Landis963]

Wait, who's Diane Allers?

A puffy-faced, dead eyed woman who looks like a moron and is probably a poor replacement for Kelly Chambers. :smalltongue:

Actually, she's a news reporter who's been assigned to Shepard's crew for some reason, and is voiced by Jessica Chobot. Yes, IGN's Jessica Chobot. Yes, PSP-licker Jessica Chobot.

[Avilan the Grey]

A puffy-faced, dead eyed woman who looks like a moron and is probably a poor replacement for Kelly Chambers. :smalltongue:

Actually, she's a news reporter who's been assigned to Shepard's crew for some reason, and is voiced by Jessica Chobot. Yes, IGN's Jessica Chobot. Yes, PSP-licker Jessica Chobot.

My guess is the term "embedded" describes the idea.

[Marnath]

Someone on the Bioware Social forums made a collage of all the in-trailer FemShep moments:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7739/femshepingamecollage.jpg

There are also some nice new screenshots up on the Mass Effect 3 website:

Diane Allers
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-046-p.jpg

Oh hell no, I don't know anything about this character and I already know I don't want her on MY Normandy. Shepard's the only one who gets to have a derp face on my crew. :smallwink:


Liara looking cute
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-050-p.jpg

Is that a white Shepard with black arms? I certainly hope they fix whatever glitch that is. O.o


Anderson looking 'ard
http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/resources/assets/media/screenshots/screenshot-047-p.jpg

It's strange seeing him suited up like that. I mean, I know he's supposed to be this really badass soldier but up to this point he's been retired/ a councilor.

[Knight13]

My guess is the term "embedded" describes the idea.

If by "embedded" you mean embedded in the wall from getting SHEPARD PAWNCHED after trying to interview the Commander one too many times. :smalltongue:


It's strange seeing him suited up like that. I mean, I know he's supposed to be this really badass soldier but up to this point he's been retired/ a councilor.
The Reapers are tearing up the planet. This is not a time for politics, it's a time for asskicking. Don't forget that Anderson was considered for Spectre candidacy at one point, he may be getting up in years but he still knows how to bring the hurt.

[Marnath]

The Reapers are tearing up the planet. This is not a time for politics, it's a time for asskicking. Don't forget that Anderson was considered for Spectre candidacy at one point, he may be getting up in years but he still knows how to bring the hurt.

I know that. It's just weird seeing him wear something other than a dress uniform/councilor's outfit.

[Avilan the Grey]

I know that. It's just weird awesome seeing him wear something other than a dress uniform/councilor's outfit.

...What's that saying...? "Fixed it for you" :smallbiggrin:

I did fell off the wagon this weekend. I did pre-order this game.
Damn.

[Mukora]

Since when is pre-ordering "falling off the wagon?"

[LordShotGun]

Since when is pre-ordering "falling off the wagon?"

Since it literally requires bending over and spreading your computer's private parts for inspection by EA via origin.

[Avilan the Grey]

Since it literally requires bending over and spreading your computer's private parts for inspection by EA via origin.

And the fact that I promised myself never to pre-order anything made by Bioware again after the fiasco that was DA2.

[Cikomyr]

Since it literally requires bending over and spreading your computer's private parts for inspection by EA via origin.

Isn't this a family-friendly forum dude? :smallamused:

[LordShotGun]

Isn't this a family-friendly forum dude? :smallamused:

Well I was talking about having to open all your private files and programs like steam and such. Now what were YOU thinking of? :smallwink:

[Androgeus]

Since it literally requires bending over and spreading your computer's private parts for inspection by EA via origin.

unless you get it on xbox :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Note to self: Thorian Creepers have a ton of hp on hardcore difficulty.

(Seriously, I just went through the Thorian section, and damn, the durability on those things was ridiculous. Made that a whole lot harder, even with me having singularity, Kaiden having lift, and both of us having throw.)

Zevox

[Xondoure]

Note to self: Thorian Creepers have a ton of hp on hardcore difficulty.

(Seriously, I just went through the Thorian section, and damn, the durability on those things was ridiculous. Made that a whole lot harder, even with me having singularity, Kaiden having lift, and both of us having throw.)

Zevox

Yeah I remember that. Particularly annoying as an engineer seeing as overload and sabotage were pretty much useless. Turned on the marksmanship and had Liara buy us time. Still one of the only fights I considered challenging.

On a similar note just ran Horizon with said Engineer now making his way through ME2 on insanity. And... that was by far the easiest I have ever had of that level. Attack drone is amazing at dealing with Scions. And when it worked on the Praetorian I almost died laughing. Certainly not going to be insulting the engineer anymore. In the right circumstances he pulls his weight and then some.

[Xzavier]

Lets not forget about one of the greatest sci-fi rpg shooter game coming . Yes it is Mass Effect 3, Commander Shepard and others are on war against the Reapers and Cerberus.

[LordShotGun]

Lets not forget about one of the greatest sci-fi rpg shooter game coming . Yes it is Mass Effect 3, Commander Shepard and others are on war against the Reapers and Cerberus.

OMG SPOILERZ. :smallfurious:


/sarcasm Yeah we know. This a mass effect 3 thread after all :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Some surprising news: for X-Box 360 players, the Mass Effect 3 demo comes with a free, temporary upgrade to an X-Box Live Gold (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9135436/) account, if you don't have it already. This is in order to allow everyone to try out the multiplayer portion of the demo, and will last from the time you download the demo until the game releases on March 6th. I'm kind of surprised that Microsoft agreed to such a thing, honestly.

Also, someone from Bioware is encouraging players to hang onto their ME3 saves (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-03-bioware-suggests-keeping-mass-effect-3-saves), rather overtly hinting at the possibility future Mass Effect games.

Zevox

[Psyren]

There's also going to be another mobile mass effect. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115662-Mass-Effect-3-Goes-Mobile)

Hopefully it will be better that their last attempt. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/102456-BioWare-Made-a-Big-Mistake-With-Mass-Effect-on-iPhone) (Well, one thing they learned was not to ignore Android out of the gate, at least.)

[Landis963]

Hopefully it actually does come out on Android, so I can play it. (:smallmad: Unlike the M:tG app, Grumble grumble...)

[Xondoure]

Some surprising news: for X-Box 360 players, the Mass Effect 3 demo comes with a free, temporary upgrade to an X-Box Live Gold (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9135436/) account, if you don't have it already. This is in order to allow everyone to try out the multiplayer portion of the demo, and will last from the time you download the demo until the game releases on March 6th. I'm kind of surprised that Microsoft agreed to such a thing, honestly.

Also, someone from Bioware is encouraging players to hang onto their ME3 saves (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-03-bioware-suggests-keeping-mass-effect-3-saves), rather overtly hinting at the possibility future Mass Effect games.

Zevox

Not that surprised. Microsoft will do anything to try and get more people interested in Gold.

[Androgeus]

(:smallmad: Unlike the M:tG app, Grumble grumble...)

... It is going to be coming out for Android, it said in the announcement article (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/879) in the first sentence. It does say it will be released after the iPhone one, but still.

To keep on topic, I finally preordered ME3. Not due to any announcements about it, but just due to my sheer bone idleness of not doing it earlier.

Also Mass Effect Galaxy's control scheme is god awful.

[Zevox]

To keep on topic, I finally preordered ME3. Not due to any announcements about it, but just due to my sheer bone idleness of not doing it earlier.
I know how that is. I only pre-ordered a couple of weeks ago. Turns out I was too late to order the Collector's Edition because of it.

Zevox

[Androgeus]

I know how that is. I only pre-ordered a couple of weeks ago. Turns out I was too late to order the Collector's Edition because of it.

Zevox

Heh, I manged to preorder Skyrim collector's edition from game.co.uk just a week before release. Heck, I even manged to get starcraft II collectors edition random instore from Gamestation, I don't even think I got that on the day of release.

[horngeek]

For those complaining about Deception, I got a laugh out of the latest Penny Arcade (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/02/03) comic.

[Zorg]

From Chris Priestly:


Mass Effect fans have been asking for a comment on recent concerns over Mass Effect: Deception. We have been listening and have the below response on the issue.

The teams at Del Rey and BioWare would like to extend our sincerest apologies to the Mass Effect fans for any errors and oversights made in the recent novel Mass Effect: Deception. We are currently working on a number of changes that will appear in future editions of the novel.

We would like to thank all Mass Effect fans for their passion and dedication to this ever-growing world, and assure them that we are listening and taking this matter very seriously.

The game's achievements are up now too:
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/mass-effect-3/achievements/

[Psyren]

Tycho's take on the novel situation is spot-on. (The news page, not the strip.)



The game's achievements are up now too:
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/mass-effect-3/achievements/

Looks like the level cap is back up to 60; interesting...
I hope they still have NG+.

[Sarone]

From Chris Priestly:



The game's achievements are up now too:
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/mass-effect-3/achievements/

At least it's something. But in all honesty this is utter bullcrap that the author in question did not do their freaking research.

[Psyren]

One more reason to ignore cash-in novels.

Nothing in there will be that important to the plot anyway - the whole game is built to bring in people who don't even know what Mass Effect is, so any needed exposition about what's going on will be right there on the disc.

[Sarone]

One more reason to ignore cash-in novels.

Nothing in there will be that important to the plot anyway - the whole game is built to bring in people who don't even know what Mass Effect is, so any needed exposition about what's going on will be right there on the disc.

True. But it still sucks that the various authors can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that they should at least have a basic level of understanding of the setting, as well as the characters and timeline they will be using.

[Androgeus]

At least it's something. But in all honesty this is utter bullcrap that the author in question did not do their freaking research.

The thing is it can't have just been the author, the editors didn't do research either. And you would have though it would be sent to Bioware to make sure they were ok with it.

[Mewtarthio]

Bioware would probably insist that Deception be released as a prologue, followed by three to four Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books that can be read in any order, and then two separate "final chapters," one for the "Good" ending and one for the "Evil" ending.

[Androgeus]

Bioware would probably insist that Deception be released as a prologue, followed by three to four Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books that can be read in any order, and then two separate "final chapters," one for the "Good" ending and one for the "Evil" ending.

You forgot the two tutorial introduction chapters at the start

[Psyren]

The thing is it can't have just been the author, the editors didn't do research either. And you would have though it would be sent to Bioware to make sure they were ok with it.

I'm not convinced Bioware was too concerned about the quality of the books. (Though they're almost certainly a bit more on the ball now.)

[Mukora]

True. But it still sucks that the various authors can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that they should at least have a basic level of understanding of the setting, as well as the characters and timeline they will be using.Various authors?

Deception is the first one to be this bad. The rest of the books were actually written by the lead writer.

[Acanous]

It's really a medium thing. The lead writer for Mass Effect is used to having a virtual world to tell his story in. Certain things need more detail, like the HOW things work in-verse. Descriptions of characters and races can be glossed over- we can see them.
Now, while his style was great for in-game, it wasn't as good in dead tree format, where he's also got to render images and vocal inflection doesn't carry emotion for the characters.

So they got a writer familiar with that format, but said writer was unfamiliar with the 'verse. The Bioware writing team very likely handed him a bunch of plot points they wanted covered in the novel, and the guy incorporated them in without really doing any digging, figuring that the Bioware team would have added footnotes to those points if anything needed further explanation.

The Editor was again unfamiliar with the verse and only checked the one novel to ensure it was internally consistant as well as free from typos or syntax errors.

So basically the whole flub was a communication error caused by the assumption that someone else did the research.

[Marnath]

It's really a medium thing. The lead writer for Mass Effect is used to having a virtual world to tell his story in. Certain things need more detail, like the HOW things work in-verse. Descriptions of characters and races can be glossed over- we can see them.
Now, while his style was great for in-game, it wasn't as good in dead tree format, where he's also got to render images and vocal inflection doesn't carry emotion for the characters.

So they got a writer familiar with that format, but said writer was unfamiliar with the 'verse. The Bioware writing team very likely handed him a bunch of plot points they wanted covered in the novel, and the guy incorporated them in without really doing any digging, figuring that the Bioware team would have added footnotes to those points if anything needed further explanation.

The Editor was again unfamiliar with the verse and only checked the one novel to ensure it was internally consistant as well as free from typos or syntax errors.

So basically the whole flub was a communication error caused by the assumption that someone else did the research.

None of that in any way excuses how bad the book is. Failure of that magnitude at a professional level is really not acceptable. If you can't do basic research maybe you should be working in a different field.:smallwink:

[Fawkes]

Here's something I haven't heard discussed yet, though. Ignoring external continuity, how well does the book stand on its own?

[Dienekes]

The question is, by itself, how is the book?


Still horrible.

And I believe that's all that has been mentioned.

[Mukora]

Yeah. Even ignoring consistency errors:


Working with the speed and certainty of the experienced operative that he was, Leng placed the pickups in locations that, when taken together, would provide complete coverage of everything that took place in the apartment. Then, having placed a wireless tap under the comm console, he was done. Or should have been done. But Leng was something of an adrenaline junkie and enjoyed being where he was. That’s why he checked the cupboards, located some cereal, and had breakfast before putting everything back exactly as it had been. It was his apartment now, meaning a place where everything that happened would be known to him, and to Cerberus. The thought pleased him and Leng was still smiling as he left.

[Mewtarthio]

Aw, the author just figured out how to use complex sentences! How cute! :smallbiggrin:

[LordShotGun]

Yeah. Even ignoring consistency errors:

Wait. What? How. That. You. Can't. What. :smallannoyed:

[Sarone]

Aw, the author just figured out how to use complex sentences! How cute! :smallbiggrin:

My thoughts exactly.

[Landis963]

Yeah. Even ignoring consistency errors:

:smallyuk: Ow, my poor head. Ugh, my poor desk.

The PPC would have a field day with this. I wonder what their policy is on stories that are changed after publication.

[Worira]

Yeah. Even ignoring consistency errors:

Wait, this is an actual quote? From the book? From the written and professionally published book?

Wow.

[Avilan the Grey]

Wait, this is an actual quote? From the book? From the written and professionally published book?

Wow.

Suddenly my grasp of the English language seems... brilliant.

[VanBuren]

Mass Effect 3 Mission Command Gets Another Mission

BioWare's Mass Effect 3 Mission Command Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/xbox?sk=app_316882578351614) app has been updated with a second mission that might give you the opportunity to get early access to the demo on Xbox Live. All you have to do is choose whether or not to romance Liara and share it on Facebook.


Liara:

"I am pleased to speak with you again, Shepard, though perhaps this will be the last time before the war arrives. I hope you know what you're fighting for."

Liara is showing a romantic interest in you, Commander. It's up to you to decide if you want her in your life after the war, no matter how it ends. Will you say the words to keep the possibility of a relationship open or to halt any notion of future romance?
A) Flirt with her
B) Reject her

Mass Effect 3 Interview

CVG has cranked out an interview with BioWare Edmonton producer Michael Gamble (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/334598/interviews/mass-effect-3-weve-brought-back-a-lot-of-what-was-missing-in-me2/) about how the story has evolved over the trilogy, why the RPG elements have been reduced, and the inclusion of multiplayer, among other things.


Is BioWare doing too much at the moment? Do you feel like you're spread too thin? Dragon Age, Star Wars, C&C, Mass Effect, and now multiplayer Mass Effect as well as single-player.

We have an amazing set of teams. Obviously, teams on different projects help each other out when they can, but we all keep busy, we make sure we're passionate about the project we're on, and, if you love a product enough, you don't mind keeping on working on it.

...

The first ME was very much an RPG that looked at its world down the barrel of a gun, and by now it feels like a shooter with the RPG elements receding - the morality and the levelling seems to be in the background. Has it been a battle of genres?

We just want to tell the best story within the context of an amazing shooter. I think in ME3 we've actually brought back a lot of the customisation elements that were missing in ME2: Weapons, armour, powers, each power now has nine possible ways of evolution. We brought back all that customisation. Like any transition between games, we want to polish everything. I wouldn't say one genre is winning out over another.

Role-playing Games and the Problem of Sympathetic Characters

The Problem With Story has an editorial (http://problemwithstory.com/2012/01/role-playing-games-and-the-fundamental-problem-of-sympathetic-characters/)that criticizes some design choices in Fallout 3 and other RPGS, claiming that they make it difficult to feel sympathy for the characters as a result of a first-person view and a lack of voice acting.


Part of the problem here is that I never see my character’s face. Whereas in games such as Mass Effect each conversation plays out by having a fully-voiced protagonist interact with NPCs based on dialogue decisions you’ve picked out, here, there is no audio.

You click a response based on what you want to say. Sure, you might argue that it’s your character who is making the response, and that you’re completing a “good” run or a “bad” run, but there is absolutely nothing about the character that dictates this. It’s purely the player’s decision to follow a certain path.

Perhaps we don’t play RPGs for rich characterisation. That’s fine. It’s been that way for years. But it can be done. Notwithstanding Mass Effect’s shortcomings, it places the player inside the middle of the action but without the abandonment Fallout 3 uses to create immersion.

Instead, we see your own face, reflect on the tone in your voice and become more of a puppet master than an avatar for your decisions. You’re here controlling the action in every conversation, but you’re not necessarily a part of it.

Mass Effect 3 Video Interview

Finally, GameSpot is hosting an eight-minute video interview (http://www.gamespot.com/mass-effect-3/videos/mass-effect-3-qanda-6349736/) with Michael Gamble, focusing on Mass Effect 3. Among the topics of discussion are: the reduction of the number of squad members, how dialogue has been written to engage players who didn't come in with Mass Effect 1 or 2, potential routes for DLC, a higher focus on RPG elements, and the possibility of a Mass Effect 4.

[Zevox]

Role-playing Games and the Problem of Sympathetic Characters

The Problem With Story has an editorial (http://problemwithstory.com/2012/01/role-playing-games-and-the-fundamental-problem-of-sympathetic-characters/)that criticizes some design choices in Fallout 3 and other RPGS, claiming that they make it difficult to feel sympathy for the characters as a result of a first-person view and a lack of voice acting.
Heh, seems to be an argument verging on my own criticisms of blank-slate characters as a whole. I find myself partially agreeing with it: it's impossible to sympathize with a character such as you find in Fallout 3 or most other western RPGs, though not just because they aren't voiced, which seems to be the biggest thrust of that article. That's certainly a problem, and I'd say that voiced blank-slates are definitely superior to unvoiced ones, but it's really a side-issue. The real problem is that they aren't characters at all, so there's nothing to sympathize with. They're empty shells that you're expected to pretend are characters. A voice makes that easier to do, but it doesn't change the fact that you're just pretending that they're something they're not.

Anyway, I have completed Mass Effect 1 with my Fail Sheperd. Pretty sure I got everything: Ashley flirted with and killed, Wrex killed (and sheesh, his death was more brutal than I expected), Rachni dead, everyone at Feros dead, the Council dead and Udina installed in their place, every situation that I could have resolved peacefully with an intimidate check instead resolved by killing the characters in question. I even actually fought Saren, even though I could have used intimidate to make him kill himself.

I'll also comment that, for the most part, I didn't find Hardcore difficulty in ME1 that much harder than Veteran. Outside of the Thorian Creeper segment, most everything felt the same. Maybe because biotics are just that overpowered in ME1 - Singularity and Barrier certainly made most fights later in the game a total breeze.

Anyway, on to ME2 it is. I think I will try doing that on Hardcore difficulty as well, at least at first. Might end up dropping back to Veteran if it's too frustrating though, since ME2 is so much harder than ME1 to begin with.

Zevox

[Landis963]

What's your plan for the suicide mission?

[Zevox]

What's your plan for the suicide mission?
Haven't gone over the guide to that in detail to plan out exacts yet, but I figure I'll do it twice - once losing enough companions to fail entirely, once with the minimum 2 surviving (or 3, with Zaeed being one so that I can kill him in his loyalty quest afterwards, haven't decided about that yet). I figure the survivors will be Morinth (because she's easily the worst choice for a surviving companion) and either Thane (because he's dying anyway) or Kasumi (because, as a DLC companion, odds are she won't have more than a cameo in 3).

Zevox

[Marnath]

Haven't gone over the guide to that in detail to plan out exacts yet, but I figure I'll do it twice - once losing enough companions to fail entirely, once with the minimum 2 surviving (or 3, with Zaeed being one so that I can kill him in his loyalty quest afterwards, haven't decided about that yet). I figure the survivors will be Morinth (because she's easily the worst choice for a surviving companion) and either Thane (because he's dying anyway) or Kasumi (because, as a DLC companion, odds are she won't have more than a cameo in 3).

Zevox

You might need to do three since the "everyone dies" ending has two versions based on whether or not you keep the base.

[Avilan the Grey]

"You click a response based on what you want to say. Sure, you might argue that it’s your character who is making the response, and that you’re completing a “good” run or a “bad” run, but there is absolutely nothing about the character that dictates this. It’s purely the player’s decision to follow a certain path."

I always find this criticism strange. Admittedly I have played (western) RPGs for a long time (Dungeon Master and Eye Of the Beholder 1 were the first games I played all the way through) and I just feel like this argument above indicates that the person just don't like (western) RPGs. This. Is. What. RPGs. ARE. YOU play the role YOU make up.

It is also interesting that Bioware admits that the ME series no longer are considered RPGs even by themselves.

Now, this said, I absolutely LOVE ME2, more so than ME1. I also love voiced main characters (providing that the voice acting is good, of course). But I am old enough, and have played enough games, that it is in no way a make or break for me; I still think that the best games (not only the best RPGs) Bioware has ever made are in order 1. Baldur's Gate II, 2. Baldur's Gate I and 3. Dragon Age: Origins, while Dragon Age 2 is an Epic Fail on all levels, as far as I am concerned.

Anyway, in short, I find the quote above from the article very telling since it basically tells us that "imagination is sub-par to voice acting". Of course it is his opinion.

Oh and as I said, I have pre-ordered ME3, and I am truly excited about playing it. I just don't think that the direction Bioware, and "RPGs" in general is taking in general is a good one.



Heh, seems to be an argument verging on my own criticisms of blank-slate characters as a whole. I find myself partially agreeing with it: it's impossible to sympathize with a character such as you find in Fallout 3 or most other western RPGs, though not just because they aren't voiced, which seems to be the biggest thrust of that article. That's certainly a problem, and I'd say that voiced blank-slates are definitely superior to unvoiced ones, but it's really a side-issue. The real problem is that they aren't characters at all, so there's nothing to sympathize with. They're empty shells that you're expected to pretend are characters. A voice makes that easier to do, but it doesn't change the fact that you're just pretending that they're not.

See above. I just don't agree with this; I think this is the ultimate RPG experience, to play a character YOU chooses to play. Especially when you get to play several races / genders. Again, though, I would LOVE to have say Skyrim with a fully voiced character, but the idea to record ALL dialogue options with two genders and 10 races... Not realistic. And I am more than willing to make that tradeoff. My imagination is still better than any writing staff. I quickly get very bored with games with a fixed protagonist. The ME games so far has been the sole exception to that rule; I have played through ME1 four times (I will never play it again, since i cannot stand the Mako, and four times was my pain threshold for idiotic driving missions, but it wasn't because of Shepard I decided to never play it again) and ME2 eight times. I will go through ME2 three more times to get the four characters I will go through ME3 with (Male Paragon, Female Paragon, Male Renegade, Female Renegade).

[Zevox]

This. Is. What. RPGs. ARE. YOU play the role YOU make up.
No, that's what tabletop RPGs are. Video game RPGs are another matter entirely. Some, mostly western ones, attempt to emulate the tabletop RPG style in this matter, but personally I think they're merely wasting potential by doing so. They cannot be tabletop RPGs - without a human running the game to react to everything the player does, that concept falls apart. Everything you can do has to be pre-made by the game's writers and designers, and given that, there is so much more potential in wholly embracing that pre-written nature of the medium than in trying to make it something it is not. Stronger stories and more compelling characters come out that way.

Honestly, that's why the best parts of Bioware's games are always the smaller stories within them, and the companion characters. Sheperd, the Warden, Hawke? I don't care about them. They're nothing, literally. But Mordin, Jack, Alistair, Morrigan, Aveline, Varric, Anders? Them I care about. Their stories are worth playing to see.


It is also interesting that Bioware admits that the ME series no longer are considered RPGs even by themselves.
I have no idea where you got that idea. The quote above has them saying that neither of the game's genres is "winning out over the other" - i.e. Mass Effect is both a third-person shooter and an RPG. As it always has been.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

No, that's what tabletop RPGs are. Video game RPGs are another matter entirely. Some, mostly western ones, attempt to emulate the tabletop RPG style in this matter, but personally I think they're merely wasting potential by doing so. They cannot be tabletop RPGs - without a human running the game to react to everything the player does, that concept falls apart. Everything you can do has to be pre-made by the game's writers and designers, and given that, there is so much more potential in wholly embracing that pre-written nature of the medium than in trying to make it something it is not. Stronger stories and more compelling characters come out that way.

Honestly, that's why the best parts of Bioware's games are always the smaller stories within them, and the companion characters. Sheperd, the Warden, Hawke? I don't care about them. They're nothing, literally. But Mordin, Jack, Alistair, Morrigan, Aveline, Varric, Anders? Them I care about. Their stories are worth playing to see.


We've seen this conversation pop up a few times in this thread and I still can't disagree with you more. I am attached to Commander Adam Shepard because he is what I made him. I like him and am more interested in how his story develops far more than Jack, Crazy Morry, and Anders most certainly.

Mind you I disagree with you on wasted potential because I enjoy developing my character, often more than the actual story. Because mostly if I wanted to see a well developed, perfectly paced, character driven story that I have no control over books, tv shows, and movies do it a hell of a lot better than any video game I have ever seen. The key point of playing a game for me is playing, indicating that I have the control, I am an active participant. It's almost a shame to waste that potential to try and be a movie broken up by excessive bouts of violence, and the protagonist wandering around breaking boxes.

[Avilan the Grey]

No, that's what tabletop RPGs are. Video game RPGs are another matter entirely. Some, mostly western ones, attempt to emulate the tabletop RPG style in this matter, but personally I think they're merely wasting potential by doing so. They cannot be tabletop RPGs - without a human running the game to react to everything the player does, that concept falls apart. Everything you can do has to be pre-made by the game's writers and designers, and given that, there is so much more potential in wholly embracing that pre-written nature of the medium than in trying to make it something it is not. Stronger stories and more compelling characters come out that way.

Honestly, that's why the best parts of Bioware's games are always the smaller stories within them, and the companion characters. Sheperd, the Warden, Hawke? I don't care about them. They're nothing, literally. But Mordin, Jack, Alistair, Morrigan, Aveline, Varric, Anders? Them I care about. Their stories are worth playing to see.

Again, we strongly disagree. It is the difference between Freedom and Storytelling. As I said, my imagination is much better than any story any writer could come up with. And above all I want to be able to play MY character, not just taking control of someone else's character. This is the classic difference between JRPGs and WRPGs: Am I playing MY character, or am I experiencing a story written for a specific character?

As for the rest, it is a very unique viewpoint I must say. The Warden, and Shepard, are far more important to me than any companion or NPC, no matter how well written. I admit that having the companions being badly written, or worse: well written douches (hello DA2!) takes away from the story at hand, but at the end of the day... What matters is what *I* (my character) does. If a well written NPC gets a happy ending that icing on the cake. Nothing more.


I have no idea where you got that idea. The quote above has them saying that neither of the game's genres is "winning out over the other" - i.e. Mass Effect is both a third-person shooter and an RPG. As it always has been.

"We just want to tell the best story within the context of an amazing shooter" as the response to the question "has it been a battle of genres?".

[Zevox]

Mind you I disagree with you on wasted potential because I enjoy developing my character, often more than the actual story. Because mostly if I wanted to see a well developed, perfectly paced, character driven story that I have no control over books, tv shows, and movies do it a hell of a lot better than any video game I have ever seen. The key point of playing a game for me is playing, indicating that I have the control, I am an active participant. It's almost a shame to waste that potential to try and be a movie broken up by excessive bouts of violence, and the protagonist wandering around breaking boxes.
I disagree - I see absolutely no reason to hold video games to a lower standard for their stories than movies or books. They are every bit as capable of telling stories as those mediums, so if they are going to do so, they should strive to do it as best they can.

Stories cannot be "played," not in any pre-made medium. The part you play is the combat, or the exploration, or whatever else the developer chooses to give you to play. Stories, however, can only be told. All that Bioware and other developers using their style do is make their stories multiple-choice to some degree or another, like settling for a "choose your own adventure" book instead of a novel, which hampers them significantly because of the things they need to do to make that possible: blank-slate main characters, overarching stories left generic to accommodate that could-be-anyone player character, other characters left less important in order to give the player the illusion of being important and in control of the story. It's just wasteful.

It's a testament to Bioware's talent that they make games as good as they do in spite of this - and leaves me wondering what they would be capable of if they dropped it. That's something I'll probably never see though, sadly.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

...blank-slate main characters, overarching stories left generic to accommodate that could-be-anyone player character, other characters left less important in order to give the player the illusion of being important and in control of the story. It's just wasteful.

It's a testament to Bioware's talent that they make games as good as they do in spite of this - and leaves me wondering what they would be capable of if they dropped it. That's something I'll probably never see though, sadly.

Thank god for that. I would hope the day never comes when the RPG genre dies, which is the consequence of what you are arguing for.
Besides, I don't get the point of your argument: If you do not want to actually play a character, why insist to do whatever it is you would do instead on a computer? As pointed out above, books and movies are far FAR better at what you are arguing for: to tell a story with no input by the player.

Edit: You do realize there are examples of the games you talk about above: Two good ones are Half Life 2 and Grim Fandango. Excellent written games where you have no choices, and only drive the story forward. They are just not RPGs.

[Dienekes]

I disagree - I see absolutely no reason to hold video games to a lower standard for their stories than movies or books. They are every bit as capable of telling stories as those mediums, so if they are going to do so, they should strive to do it as best they can.

I don't hold them to a different standard and that's the problem. Video games will never match the pacing of a good book or film. A good fight scene should rarely last more than 5 minutes then you go back to character or story development. Walking from one location to another is cut because it's pointless padding, and that is what most video games are. A lot of padding generally involving many many fights between points when the story picks up and then suddenly stops again. Numerous locations that most definitely should have been cut or folded into others for the sake of good pacing. And the main character definitely doesn't die 60 times over the course of the story, wasting more time and honestly muddling the whole experience from a story perspective. Even the best of games rarely have that great a story. I've played numerous rpg's and the closest game I have ever seen to compare to a good book, movie, or show in terms of story was probably Planescape: Torment.


Stories cannot be "played," not in any pre-made medium. The part you play is the combat, or the exploration, or whatever else the developer chooses to give you to play. Stories, however, can only be told. All that Bioware and other developers using their style do is make their stories multiple-choice to some degree or another, like settling for a "choose your own adventure" book instead of a novel, which hampers them significantly because of the things they need to do to make that possible: blank-slate main characters, overarching stories left generic to accommodate that could-be-anyone player character, other characters left less important in order to give the player the illusion of being important and in control of the story. It's just wasteful.

It's a testament to Bioware's talent that they make games as good as they do in spite of this - and leaves me wondering what they would be capable of if they dropped it. That's something I'll probably never see though, sadly.

But they can be played. I saved a presumed extinct alien race. I brought Liara with me to murder her own mother. A member of my crew died, sacrificing himself to stop the Collector threat. And so many more choices that change the tone and details of the story. Sure I'll even agree that there are set points in the story I'd be ridiculous to disagree, but it can most definitely be played.

The only unique thing that a video game has that can not be copied and done better through books, films, and tv is player choice. Why would I ever wish to lose the uniqueness of that play?

[Zevox]

Again, we strongly disagree. It is the difference between Freedom and Storytelling. As I said, my imagination is much better than any story any writer could come up with. And above all I want to be able to play MY character, not just taking control of someone else's character. This is the classic difference between JRPGs and WRPGs: Am I playing MY character, or am I experiencing a story written for a specific character?
And this is where I side with JRPGs as the better style, and the better experience. When done particularly well, they are noticeably better and more compelling than even Bioware's best work. And that's a pity, because I think it's almost as much Bioware choosing to limit themselves that causes that as it is the strong writing of the best JRPGs.


As for the rest, it is a very unique viewpoint I must say. The Warden, and Shepard, are far more important to me than any companion or NPC, no matter how well written.
They never could be for me. They're a body I'm given to fight with, and are capable of being nothing more. Their companions, however, are so much more. (Well, besides Jacob and Kaiden, anyway - they're not much better than Sheperd in this regard :smalltongue:.)


"We just want to tell the best story within the context of an amazing shooter" as the response to the question "has it been a battle of genres?".
And from that line you get the idea that the game isn't an RPG... how? It says nothing of the sort.


Thank god for that. I would hope the day never comes when the RPG genre dies, which is the consequence of what you are arguing for.
That is not even close to the case. As I said, video game RPGs are not tabletop RPGs. Create-a-characters are not their defining attribute - not even all western RPGs use those.


Besides, I don't get the point of your argument: If you do not want to actually play a character, why insist to do whatever it is you would do instead on a computer? As pointed out above, books and movies are far FAR better at what you are arguing for: to tell a story with no input by the player.
No, they're not. As I said earlier, video games are just as capable of doing that as those other mediums - I have played such games, and I want to see more of them. Why? Because I think that video games with great stories as well as great gameplay are better than those that just have great gameplay, and as with anything I enjoy, I want to see the medium produce the best games that it can.

Actually, I would say that your question works better in reverse: if you want to actually play a character, to have a story shape itself to your actions and choices, why insist on doing it in a video game? Tabletop RPGs are far better at that than video games ever could be.


Edit: You do realize there are examples of the games you talk about above: Two good ones are Half Life 2 and Grim Fandango. Excellent written games where you have no choices, and only drive the story forward. They are just not RPGs.
I have never played either of those, or even heard of the latter. The examples I am thinking of are RPGs: Persona 3 and 4, Tales of the Abyss and Vesperia.


I don't hold them to a different standard and that's the problem. Video games will never match the pacing of a good book or film. A good fight scene should rarely last more than 5 minutes then you go back to character or story development. Walking from one location to another is cut because it's pointless padding, and that is what most video games are.
That would be padding in a movie because the movie is just a story. A video game is not just a story, the story is simply one part of it. What is in between is the gameplay, and is there for the player's enjoyment, just as much so as the story is. Yes, the pacing will be different from, and almost always slower than, a movie by the nature of the medium, but that does not make the story worse, it merely reflects the difference between the mediums.


But they can be played. I saved a presumed extinct alien race. I brought Liara with me to murder her own mother. A member of my crew died, sacrificing himself to stop the Collector threat. And so many more choices that change the tone and details of the story. Sure I'll even agree that there are set points in the story I'd be ridiculous to disagree, but it can most definitely be played.
Would you call Choose Your Own Adventure books something that you “play,” then? Because there is no difference between how they operate and how the sorts of decisions you mention in Mass Effect do. Simple multiple choice, selecting which minor variant of the same story will play out. Obviously, I do not consider this “playing” at all.


The only unique thing that a video game has that can not be copied and done better through books, films, and tv is player choice. Why would I ever wish to lose the uniqueness of that play?
Not at all. No movie can allow you to control their characters as they fight a battle or explore an exotic land - those are the sorts of things that video games allow you to do that are unique. But no video game can allow you to choose how the story proceeds beyond presenting you with a simple multiple choice scenario - something which is equivalent to a choose-your-own-adventure book. Only tabletop RPGs can do that.

Zevox

[Xondoure]

I personally think Mass Effect is wonderful because it marries the two rpg ideals together as best we can in the modern era. Would I like it more if the choices had a bit more impact on the course of the storyline? Of course! Have I given up on that really happening for ME3 because they've decided to make more games after it (or hint that much?) Yes. I'm okay with that though because ME2 remains my favorite console game of all time and with all the work they've put into 3 such as adding in customizability to a higher degree while keeping the faster pace of 2 it should be close as close to a must play for me as it is going to get.

[Dienekes]

That would be padding in a movie because the movie is just a story. A video game is not just a story, the story is simply one part of it. What is in between is the gameplay, and is there for the player's enjoyment, just as much so as the story is. Yes, the pacing will be different from, and almost always slower than, a movie by the nature of the medium, but that does not make the story worse, it merely reflects the difference between the mediums.

So you want a movie with a pause button so you can go do something completely different until you get bored and go back to the movie?


Would you call Choose Your Own Adventure books something that you “play,” then? Because there is no difference between how they operate and how the sorts of decisions you mention in Mass Effect do. Simple multiple choice, selecting which minor variant of the same story will play out. Obviously, I do not consider this “playing” at all.

Of course I'm taking an active role in an entertainment medium for my own enjoyment. That is more or less the definition of playing. Now I don't think that books are the best medium for that sort of thing simply because of the differences in necessary pages and the tangle that occurs when looking for the next part of the book you need to flip through which takes you completely out of being engaged in the book. Also the use of second person narrative can be jarring. Video games have none of those limitations since so much story can be compacted into a disc, the use of second person is not present except in dialogue, and the flipping is done automatically so you receive a steady flowing narrative.


Not at all. No movie can allow you to control their characters as they fight a battle or explore an exotic land - those are the sorts of things that video games allow you to do that are unique. But no video game can allow you to choose how the story proceeds beyond presenting you with a simple multiple choice scenario - something which is equivalent to a choose-your-own-adventure book. Only tabletop RPGs can do that.


Yes but now we're bouncing into gameplay which is completely separate from story, at least in your model. I can play Super Mario Bros while watching the Godfather if I really wanted, but if I wanted to game I would play mario if I wanted an amazing engaging story I would take the Godfather. But only video games can allow me to potentially be the Godfather, choosing who to knock off, who I should go into business with, and so on. If Bioware made a Godfather game I would buy that thing instantly, because the fun of getting choice, even for the small details, is too much to pass up or pass by.

If some other developer made a Godfather game in which I played a gunman, and during the cutscenes I got to watch scenes from the Godfather I would most likely never give that game a seconds thought.

Also, different game aspects develop. Who knows what awesome new things we'll be able to do in the next 10 or 20 years? Of course all these choices will be programmed, but if they keep pushing the envelop of what they can accomplish maybe more options and wider story involvement will become possible. That I truly wish to see.

[Avilan the Grey]

I have never played either of those, or even heard of the latter. The examples I am thinking of are RPGs: Persona 3 and 4, Tales of the Abyss and Vesperia.


Well I have not heard of or played any of those :smallsmile:

Anyway: Grim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grim_Fandango) Fandango (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177822/) is one of the top 10 best PC games ever made (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrimFandango).

[Zevox]

Well I have not heard of or played any of those :smallsmile:

Anyway: Grim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grim_Fandango) Fandango (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177822/) is one of the top 10 best PC games ever made (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrimFandango).
Hm, seems... quirky, to say the least. Not sure if it's something I'd be interested in or not.


So you want a movie with a pause button so you can go do something completely different until you get bored and go back to the movie?
No. I want a game with a good story.


Yes but now we're bouncing into gameplay which is completely separate from story, at least in your model.
Not at all. Obviously the gameplay revolves around the characters and events of the story. It just doesn't waste time and storytelling potential by pretending that you're determining the events of that story.


Also, different game aspects develop. Who knows what awesome new things we'll be able to do in the next 10 or 20 years? Of course all these choices will be programmed, but if they keep pushing the envelop of what they can accomplish maybe more options and wider story involvement will become possible. That I truly wish to see.
I doubt that is possible. The big limiting factor at this point is not our technology, but simply the demands on the writers and developers making the game. Any choice they try to present you with which actually does cause a significant change in how things play out puts much more demand on the writers and developers - the writers could get to the point where they're essentially writing multiple different stories rather than minor variations on one story, and the people designing and programming the game have that many more things to make to accommodate the new areas you'd be going to, characters you'd be meeting, or whatever. That's why the choices you get presented with in these sorts of games make so little difference most of the time.

That isn't going to change. Short of developing AI that could genuinely play the role that a GM plays in tabletop games, which obviously would carry its own problems (wouldn't an AI that advanced be sapient itself, after all, and thus entitled to an existence beyond just mediating a game for our amusement?), that's not going to advance beyond where it is now.

Anyway, on a less contentious topic, I've gone over the guides to the suicide mission, and think I have a workable plan down for how I'll do things. It didn't quite work out how I wanted: I couldn't save Kasumi or Thane. But I got Zaeed as my second survivor instead, and he's in the same situation as Kasumi as a DLC companion, plus he's a less likable character than her, so I guess that works out just fine.
Loyal Companions:
Miranda-
Jack-
Legion-
Thane-
Morinth
Kasumi-
Grunt-

Non-Loyal (Screwed up quest):
Tali-

Non-Loyal (Quest not done):
Jacob-
Garrus-
Zaeed (Can do his quest after the Suicide Mission)
Mordin-

Deaths:
Pre-Mission: Samara killed to acquire Morinth.
No Ship Armor: Jack
No Ship Shields: Legion (Take Kasumi vs Occulus)
No Thanix Cannon: Thane

Vents: Grunt
Escorting Survivors (non-loyal): Tali
Biotic Barrier: Miranda (Jacob as biotic, bring Miranda and Zaeed)
Diversion Team Leader: Kasumi
Final Boss (non-loyal): Jacob, Garrus

Hold the Line: Mordin (Mordin, Morinth, Zaeed holding line, 0+2+3= 5/3 = 1.66, 1 dead).

Final Result: Morinth and Zaeed alive, rest dead.
For death result: Send Zaeed as escort, have Tali among those holding the line. Bring Garrus instead of Zaeed during biotic barrier section to make sure Miranda still dies there. Result: Hold the Line of Mordin, Tali, and Morinth; 0+0+2 = 2/3 = .66, 2 deaths, only Morinth survives, thus Sheperd dies.

The downside is that I miss out on killing Sidonis in Garrus' loyalty quest, killing Jacob's father in his loyalty quest, as well as on playing Mordin's excellent loyalty quest at all ( :smallfrown: ), but I couldn't make the numbers work any other way*. The guide to the worst possible play-through on the Bioware forums is actually more efficient than mine that way, but I needed to make adjustments due to the fact that I've already picked up Zaeed (that guide recommended not recruiting him, and I can see why, since his high Hold the Line score screws up the numbers all over the place) and I'm going to have Miranda loyal in order to romance her (the guide recommended siding with Jack in their argument to make her non-loyal, allowing her to be one of those killed during the final boss fight).

*Well, I could swap Garrus for Grunt by not doing Grunt's loyalty quest, but I'm just too amused by the thought of the sheer stupidity required to send Grunt to do the tech expert job. That is a failure worthy of Fail Sheperd
Zevox

[Xondoure]

Plus now the next person who talks to Zaeed will get: "Had to hold a line against an army of Collectors in their own base once. Just me and some of the best fighters in the galaxy against a swarm of the buggers. Nearly ran out of an ammo block and they were still pouring out when we pulled back. Lost a lot of good men that day. Had to kill the blasted Asari who had fought with me myself when she tried to fry a whole in my brain with her nervous system. Helluva night though."

[Acanous]

I honestly have trouble considering Persona 4 an RPG. It's more of a story-driven day-planner simulator, with a bunch of grindy, badly designed combat tacked on.

DA2 was an RPG though, as the choices you make actually matter and impact the story. For me, that's the clincher for if something is an RPG or not- it doesn't matter if you're playing your own character, or one pre-tailored for the story-- it only matters that you have the option of player choice, and that the player choice changes the story in real ways.

[LordShotGun]

DA2 was an RPG though, as the choices you make actually matter and impact the story.

You can impact it poorly, but yeah that's a different story all together.


WHY ANDERS WHY!?!?!? WHY ARE YOU GAY?!?!?

[Psyren]

Ever since the WRPG really came into its own (Ultima VII was that moment for me) I kicked JRPGs to the curb and never really looked back. So far as I can tell, I haven't missed much.

And no Bioware PC is a totally blank slate - not Shepard, not Hawke, not the Warden, not the Spirit Monk, none of them. They give the player a lot of freedom, but they do make choices about your character before you even sit down.

This is not a bad thing at all. What's bad is when the company doesn't realize the choices they have and have not made. Because then they can end up contradicting an entire series. (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/learning-from-other-m)

[Sarone]

That's a good video and brings up some decent points when it comes to games in general.

And I have totally forgotten about the animated series with link. Makes me want to punch cute animals in the face.

[Edge]

Just a heads up, the official Mass Effect website just got a massive overhaul with fair few new videos up.

Take a look (http://www.masseffect.com/).

[Zevox]

For me, that's the clincher for if something is an RPG or not- it doesn't matter if you're playing your own character, or one pre-tailored for the story-- it only matters that you have the option of player choice, and that the player choice changes the story in real ways.
And yet there are plenty of RPGs that do nothing of the sort. From nearly all JRPGs to some western ones, like The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age.


Ever since the WRPG really came into its own (Ultima VII was that moment for me) I kicked JRPGs to the curb and never really looked back. So far as I can tell, I haven't missed much.
*looks up when Ultima 7 was released* Oh no, you've missed everything. The only JRPGs in existence back before that would've been the very earliest Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games. Which are fun in that old-school way, but very far from the genre's best.


And no Bioware PC is a totally blank slate - not Shepard, not Hawke, not the Warden, not the Spirit Monk, none of them. They give the player a lot of freedom, but they do make choices about your character before you even sit down.
Very few, usually only the bare minimum necessary for the game's premise. The character's personality and motivations are quite probably the most important part, and those are always left blank. In Mass Effect even large parts of your background are multiple-choice, even though that affects all of, what, a single side-quest in ME1?

Anyway, back on track, I'm now past Horizon in my ME2 Fail Shep file, and so far am still on hardcore difficulty. It hasn't been as bad as I thought. The real test I think was facing Harbinger, Scions, and Husks on Horizon, and that actually went okay. Harbinger didn't seem any worse than in veteran, and I could take down a Husk's armor with one pistol shot, making them easy pickings for singularity. Scions were a pain though, which how many hits they can take, but even so I managed, so I think I'll be able to do this after all. The one big remaining test I think will be facing the big swarms of Husks on the Reaper IFF mission.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age.

That game was crap. Carry on.

[Zevox]

That game was crap. Carry on.
Oh, I don't quite agree. It wasn't anything special, and the attempts at an original story failed (not the least important reason for which being their baffling decision to try and do an original story while still having the characters follow in the path of the Fellowship...), but the combat was quite good, and rather challenging until you got very late into the game.

Zevox

[Psyren]

*looks up when Ultima 7 was released* Oh no, you've missed everything.

Hmm, you're right, that's a bit early. I definitely hung in there for the Super Famicom era - Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Mario RPG.

But I did give up on the genre after that. Yahtzee sums it up:


The major thing that turns me off JRPGs and a lot of games in general is when I don't feel that I, as a player, am contributing anything to the story. All I ever seem to do is wheel the characters from one whingy boring dialogue to the next. The events are driven by their actions, not mine. All I am is a little angry id who takes over for the combat, spending the rest of the time jumping up and down in the back of the main character's mind yanking nerve endings, trying to make him stop acting like a pillock. What I'm saying is that I like games where the gameplay and story go hand in hand, and in most JRPGs they're kept on either side of a wrought-iron fence made of tigers.


Also, calling LotR: t3A a WRPG is a massive joke from where I'm sitting. It was a JRPG in all but principality, whether or not it was technically made in the west.

And before you ask - yes, I played the bloody thing, and got bored to tears halfway through Moria.

[Zevox]

Hmm, you're right, that's a bit early. I definitely hung in there for the Super Famicom era - Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Mario RPG.

But I did give up on the genre after that. Yahtzee sums it up:
I am the complete opposite of that, as I'm sure you've figured out by now. But I'm just repeating myself at this point - I don't think we're going to get anywhere further with this line of conversation.

Zevox

[Mukora]

The thing that separates games from other forms of media is player agency. Why would you want to remove that?

[Zevox]

The thing that separates games from other forms of media is player agency. Why would you want to remove that?
I wouldn't. That's what the gameplay is for - combat, exploration, etc. The story is another thing entirely, however. It is held back by, not benefits from, attempts to force "player agency" into it.

But as I said in my edit above, I'm repeating myself at this point.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Oh, I don't quite agree. It wasn't anything special, and the attempts at an original story failed (not the least important reason for which being their baffling decision to try and do an original story while still having the characters follow in the path of the Fellowship...), but the combat was quite good, and rather challenging until you got very late into the game.


The story was unimaginative, the characters were walking stereotypes with barely anything to actually flesh them out or make me care about their stories, if they even had them. The game takes a sudden flying leap from pseudo-reasonable in setting game to actually attacking the Eye of Sauron on it's tower.

Game play itself was pokemon. I'm not exactly a fan of pokemon, but some people are so I can't really hold that against it. What I can do is completely disagree with you about the difficulty curve. The only battle I remember being even vaguely difficult was the ridiculous eye of Sauron. Everything else was mostly laughable since nothing (except the dumb Eye) seems to have defense against the Gimli stand-ins ability to move opponents down the action list, meaning you could chain any of the bosses out of a fight.

I will say however I did enjoy playing as a Balrog in the monster phase. There is something so satisfying in destroying all that oppose you as that giant fiery demon.

[Zevox]

The story was unimaginative, the characters were walking stereotypes with barely anything to actually flesh them out or make me care about their stories, if they even had them. The game takes a sudden flying leap from pseudo-reasonable in setting game to actually attacking the Eye of Sauron on it's tower.
All true. But like I said, the combat was good.


Game play itself was pokemon.
:smallconfused: Um, no. The only thing it had in common with Pokèmon is being turned-based. Which a ton of games are. The combat system actually seemed modeled after Final Fantasy 10's to me, which is probably one of the best things you could take from the Final Fantasy series in my opinion.


What I can do is completely disagree with you about the difficulty curve. The only battle I remember being even vaguely difficult was the ridiculous eye of Sauron. Everything else was mostly laughable since nothing (except the dumb Eye) seems to have defense against the Gimli stand-ins ability to move opponents down the action list, meaning you could chain any of the bosses out of a fight.
Hm, I don't think I ever used Hadhod, but I do remember using similar abilities from the Ranger character, and plenty of things weren't affected by it, or at least weren't always affected by it. That was actually something that impressed me about the game though - it's one of those rare RPGs where status-effect attacks are actually worth using and add to the strategy of the game, rather than being a waste of time since nearly everything is immune to it and what isn't is too weak to bother.

What made the game end up rather easy was that Berethor's swordsmanship abilities and (especially) Idrial's magic become extremely overpowering late in the game, with only a select few monsters being able to last long against them or actually fight back. Honestly, I found even the Suaron fight easy at that point, which was pretty sad.


I will say however I did enjoy playing as a Balrog in the monster phase. There is something so satisfying in destroying all that oppose you as that giant fiery demon.
Oh yes, that was very nice. Evil Mode in general was a nice touch actually, though some of the battles got rather repetitive, since you so often were just playing a bunch of random Orcs or Uruk-Hai, but you had to go through all of those fights to get to playing as the boss of a stage.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

:smallconfused: Um, no. The only thing it had in common with Pokèmon is being turned-based. Which a ton of games are. The combat system actually seemed modeled after Final Fantasy 10's to me, which is probably one of the best things you could take from the Final Fantasy series in my opinion.

Never played it, and nothing I've heard about it makes me want to. Mind you that's partially because the only FF game I tried bored me in the first half hour so I put it down and never started again (don't remember which one it was) and partially because Spoony's review makes it sound physically painful.


Hm, I don't think I ever used Hadhod, but I do remember using similar abilities from the Ranger character, and plenty of things weren't affected by it, or at least weren't always affected by it. That was actually something that impressed me about the game though - it's one of those rare RPGs where status-effect attacks are actually worth using and add to the strategy of the game, rather than being a waste of time since nearly everything is immune to it and what isn't is too weak to bother.

What made the game end up rather easy was that Berethor's swordsmanship abilities and (especially) Idrial's magic become extremely overpowering late in the game, with only a select few monsters being able to last long against them or actually fight back. Honestly, I found even the Suaron fight easy at that point, which was pretty sad.

Gimli stand in was op. No one else status effects worked as well as his on bosses. Also his health was highest in the game, and damage was nearly as good as token Boromir. Dude broke the game.

[Zevox]

Never played it, and nothing I've heard about it makes me want to. Mind you that's partially because the only FF game I tried bored me in the first half hour so I put it down and never started again (don't remember which one it was) and partially because Spoony's review makes it sound physically painful.
From my experience with it the Final Fantasy series has extremely varying levels of quality between games. Some are good, some are atrocious, some are just okay. For FF10, there are many valid criticisms of the story and characters, which Spoony pretty much covered, but the combat is good enough that I enjoyed it nonetheless, and I do think Spoony overreacted to some parts of it. I am in complete agreement with him on FF8 though, and personally would consider that one the worst in the series that I've played - and probably the worst RPG I've ever played, actually.


Gimli stand in was op. No one else status effects worked as well as his on bosses. Also his health was highest in the game, and damage was nearly as good as token Boromir. Dude broke the game.
I'll have to remember never to use if and when I replay the game again, then.

Zevox

[Acanous]

And yet there are plenty of RPGs that do nothing of the sort. From nearly all JRPGs to some western ones, like The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age.



That's the thing. For me, JRPG's aren't really RPGs- they're adventure games. You adventure and quest along a plotline, upgrading equiptment and getting new abilities. It's almost like a puzzle game with grindy bits, really, since most of the JRPG bosses have some combo of abilities which destroy them utterly, and are a royal pain in the butt if you try fighting them without their kryptonite.

This isn't neccesarilly a bad thing. There's a ton of room in that genre, and they can tell a good story and make you care about what's going on. You're just not going to have any choice except what equiptment/upgrades to take, what combat tactics to use, and occasionally you're allowed to switch up the order of operations.

Sound familiar? It's like any Megaman game, plus a more fleshed out set of characters with a less vague backstory.

See, way back in the day this is actually what RPGs were. You got very little in terms of character options, and the DM was the storyteller. The only alignments were good, PVP didn't exist except in the manner of keeping score, and your upbringing, goals, and win condition were clearly spelled out for you. Fighters became lords, Wizards went to teach at an academy, Rogues ran a thieve's guild.

The genre, however, has evolved. It started near the end of 2nd edition DnD, and exploded in 3.0. GURPS and other systems took it even further. Now, the character drives the story, and the player drives the character. There's still some dissonance- you're never going to truly relate to your character so long as you weren't brought up living in the setting and experiencing his life firsthand- but it's a reasonable proxy.

The way I see it, the old style of RPG was mostly adventure games, and the Roleplay was slowly seeping in. Nowadays, I expect at bare bones minimum two diametrically opposed, legitimate endings to a game before I'll tip my hat and call it an RPG.

This, really, is what I believe seperates the JRPGs from the WRPGs. In the former, the only "choice" bits of ending you're going to get are a "Full completion" and a "Partial completion" ending. They do this to point out that you haven't "Really" beaten the game- there's still stuff left for you to do.

In the latter, you have decisions like "Who ends up ruling the kingdom", "What happens to the doomsday device", "Does my character live or die?" which are a culmination of other, smaller choices you've been making all game long. They're legitimate, not just a Game Over by any other name.

In this manner, Shadow the Hedgehog (Which was rather poor, I thought) is more of an RPG than Grandia 2 (which was great, I thought)

I know there are a great many who disagree with me on this, but when someone asks me to quantify what makes a game an "RPG", to me, it's really the ability for player driven choices to affect the plot of the game. (In a manner aside from "Moving the plot forward")

Now, if this example is taken forward, you can have an RPG splice with *Any* other genre. Even Starcraft 2 would count as an RPG/RTS (Albeit a poor RPG with so few choices).
You can have RPG/Shooters, RPG/Puzzle games, RPG/adventure...Even RPG/Fighting games.

[Zevox]

That's the thing. For me, JRPG's aren't really RPGs- they're adventure games.
Only if you redefine what "RPG" means for video games.

Simply put, you're confusing two different things: video game RPGs, and tabletop RPGs. The former are not the latter, they mostly just stole the name from them. If you would prefer that video game RPGs be defined the same way tabletop ones are, you're free to make that argument (good luck at getting enough people to change how they refer to an entire genre in order to make that work though). But don't pretend that that's the way the term is actually used in the video game industry - there are entirely too many examples proving that it isn't.

Edit: Upon another reading I noticed that I missed the crucial phrase "for me" at the start of that sentence. Very well, so making such an argument is precisely what you were doing. Me personally, I don't buy it. From where I'm sitting western and Japanese RPGs have more than enough in common to be considered a single genre. Many of the things that I enjoy about the gameplay of one I enjoy about the other - the level-up systems (or similar but alternative systems, such as Final Fantasy has sometimes dabbled with), for instance, or the class systems. I simply think that one has a superior storytelling style. So I personally see no reason to alter how I refer to the genre.

Zevox

[Acanous]

Oh, I have no doubt that there are. I really don't need to change the industry, though. It's slowly changing on it's own. The more single-plot games are falling out of fashion, with the choice driven games getting more of the market share. Even MMOs are getting character-choice driven plots, like the new Dark Astoria arc in City of Heroes.

Simply put, while there are still people who may term the games without Plot choices as RPGs, the industry itself is learning that you can't sell an RPG without plot changing choices. (Maybe can't is too strong a word. Choices help RPGs sell better is a little more accurate)

While I won't try to retroactively change the terminology as applied to older games, the new stuff seems to be more in line with my ideas of the term, and in 20 years I doubt you'll be seeing anything with RPG in the title that is not player-driven.

[Zevox]

Oh, I have no doubt that there are. I really don't need to change the industry, though. It's slowly changing on it's own. The more single-plot games are falling out of fashion, with the choice driven games getting more of the market share. Even MMOs are getting character-choice driven plots, like the new Dark Astoria arc in City of Heroes.

Simply put, while there are still people who may term the games without Plot choices as RPGs, the industry itself is learning that you can't sell an RPG without plot changing choices. (Maybe can't is too strong a word. Choices help RPGs sell better is a little more accurate)

While I won't try to retroactively change the terminology as applied to older games, the new stuff seems to be more in line with my ideas of the term, and in 20 years I doubt you'll be seeing anything with RPG in the title that is not player-driven.
I certainly hope not, but I'm no clairvoyant, so I can't claim that you're entirely wrong. Myself though, I'll be doing everything in my power to prevent that, such as supporting the upcoming major JRPG releases here in the US. There are actually three I'll be picking up around the same time period as ME3 - Devil Survivor 2, Tales of Graces F, and Xenoblade Chronicles.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

Only if you redefine what "RPG" means for video games.

Simply put, you're confusing two different things: video game RPGs, and tabletop RPGs. The former are not the latter, they mostly just stole the name from them. If you would prefer that video game RPGs be defined the same way tabletop ones are, you're free to make that argument (good luck at getting enough people to change how they refer to an entire genre in order to make that work though).

The thing is that outside of the JRPG circles, I think this IS the definition. It has always BEEN the definition. From Descent of Undermountain to Eye of the Beholder to Baldur's Gate to Morrowind and DA:O. He doesn't have to have good luck to change it, it is already the established definition of the genre.

Edit: and I agree with what was written above: JRPGs seems to be glorified adventure games. To a point, even, I think in the west a certain number of adventure games could be called RPGs by your definition. This is also why I suggested Grim Fandango to you, it is one of the best adventure games ever, with a brilliant story and a fantastic set of characters. Others you should try is of course the Monkey Island games, the Dig, Beneath a Steel Sky and a few other classical titles.

[Xondoure]

So in an attempt to move past the western vs. japanese rig styles argument that people keep trying to have with Zevox every three pages or so... Biggest choice actually having an effect moment that would blow you away?

Mine would have to be Kasumi's greybox. If they bring that back in a meaningful way when it was an optional mission from an optional character... I will be stunned and this game will be perfect.

[Avilan the Grey]

So in an attempt to move past the western vs. japanese rig styles argument that people keep trying to have with Zevox every three pages or so... Biggest choice actually having an effect moment that would blow you away?

Mine would have to be Kasumi's greybox. If they bring that back in a meaningful way when it was an optional mission from an optional character... I will be stunned and this game will be perfect.

That, and the data file you could A) send to Cerberus, B) send to the Alliance or C) keep for personal use later.

[kamikasei]

Biggest choice actually having an effect moment that would blow you away?
I don't know about "biggest", but I'll be curious to see if the vision on Eletania (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Eletania#The_Vision) turns out to matter in any way.

[Acanous]

HmmMMmm... There's a lot of choices to pick from. The obvious ones are the collector base, the Rachni queen, and the genophage cure. We already KNOW they're all coming back, but I really want to see what the end result of those choices was.

[horngeek]

Actually, I'm not sure how much of an effect the Collector Base will have. I mean, Cerberus is going to be indoctrinated either way.

[Acanous]

Which goes to show that it didn't matter for purposes of Cerberus being indoctrinated, but doesn't tell us what they did with it (Perhaps pre-indoctrination?)

[Edge]

Hey. A new, official, FemShep trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=47RCBRv6m8U) is up.

[LordShotGun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pShKKOV_gA


FemShep's trailer. Does't really show anything new except that jacob, legion, and miranda all play some part in ME3, so any failsheps out there are gonna be missing out on alot.

[Mukora]

We already knew Jacob, Samara and Legion would be playing some part. All ME2 squadmates will be.

We just don't know how large their roles will be.