Orc Civil Rights in Videogames

[t209]

Who inspire the orc to gain prominence as playable character instead of barbaric monsters?
Gortwog of Orsinium (Daggerfall, 1994)
- Without him, Morrowind would only have eight races which all of them lack smithing skills.
Thrall of Frostwolf Clan (Warcraft 3, 2002)
- inspire not so evil orcs in other videogames.
P.S- I played as Orc in Skyrim.

[KillianHawkeye]

This has nothing to do with civil rights in video games.

[Abakus]

Well, Arcanum (2001) allows one to play as an Half Orc, and also deals with the role of orcs in a Steam Punk-based city. While they still occur as barbarian tribes (all races do), they are also seen operating high technology such as planes.

All in all they still are at the poorer end of the social ladder though....

[t209]

This has nothing to do with civil rights in video games.

as in having a right to be a playable character instead of xp fodder.
P.S- which game first let you play as orc?

[Erloas]

Well the original Warcraft, from '94 had the orcs and humans on essentially the same level. Although I don't remember the campaign from it, that may have been one sided.

I can't think of any setting with an orc as a main character (as RTSs don't really fit that) that seems like it would have a reasonable chance of being first.

[Gaius Marius]

I remember games like Baldurs Gate II giving you the option of being a Half-Orc, but it had so little influence on the gameplay...

Any game that puts you as a member of "the eternal ennemy of mankind"? Ultimately, that's what being an Orc was all about before Warcraft screwed things a bit. Before, it was often a dual world of Humans/Allies vs Orcs/Allies.

Daggerfall might have been one of the first to break that mold. Can't think of much other examples...

[Karoht]

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."--Optimus Prime

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that race does not equal alignment, save for specific instances of games where this is just part of the context, AKA the rules make it so. The only one I can think of off the top of my head where races are born evil would be D&D, but I'm sure there are others.

As for Orcs or any other race in games, I get bored of being human, the humans are usually very cliche (For the Light! For the Good! We're never bad guys! All is well in the peaceful and perfect land of Mankind. Go Humans!), and while orcs are cliche as well, I personally just find them less so. As a result though, more and more authors are treating Orcs and other 'monsterous' or 'evil' races the same as they would people, and giving them real depth and making them more interesting, by exploring motifs beyond the stereotypical and cliche. Sometimes.

It is also interesting to note that in most of games or fiction, the humans automatically dislike or fear (but not always) these races because of the pointy teeth, pointy ears, or large size. We will ignore skin color for purpose of this discussion, I'm focusing on the preditory features here. Sometimes this is taken to extremes, sometimes it is a natural predatory fear that is projected onto a humanoid being (orcs are common) and then extrapolated. Sometimes that extrapolation is moderate (eat raw meat, not very bright, morality and intellect supposedly lacking), sometimes it is jacked up to eleven (cannibalistic, eating humans, extremely limited reasoning capacity, no discernable language, no discernable morality, much larger than people, primative weaponry and armor and battle tactics, highly brutal), and in rare cases, they are hardly different from humans at all.

Lets look at goblins and kobolds for a moment. Notice a very close relationship to pest species such as rats? Notice the very impish features to imply a relationship with demons or fey, depending on interpretation?

I'm sure we could site historical and mythological references here, but I'll leave that to those more versed than I.


As for their rights (and responsibilities) I usually follow the idea that if they can reason like people, and they CAN live like people, they deserve to be treated like people.

People being a very loose interpretation that I don't have a solid definition for, partly because we have a tendancy to want to treat certain animals (dolphins, dogs, horses) with similar rules to how we treat humans, but not completely the same rules, rights, or responsibilities and such. In other words, don't read too far into the words person or people, and the above rule works rather well.

The issue then comes if a race demonstrates that it can not live like people. They can't form peaceful settlements, they can't find food other than by stealing from and causing harm to other peaceful settlements (IE-A town of humans or a mountain full of Dwarves), refuse to be reasoned with, refuse help from other races to learn to live in an acceptable manner, and infight to the point where it is a wonder how they're even alive today. Then there is an issue. Issues usually create conflict. Conflict tends to be the central focus of most games and stories.

Just some thoughts, hopefully not too political or anything.

[hamishspence]

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."--Optimus Prime

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that race does not equal alignment, save for specific instances of games where this is just part of the context, AKA the rules make it so. The only one I can think of off the top of my head where races are born evil would be D&D, but I'm sure there are others.

And even D&D has tended to move away from this- with most races having alignment tendencies rather than being Always X Alignment.

[Morty]

And even D&D has tended to move away from this- with most races having alignment tendencies rather than being Always X Alignment.

That's what the rules say, but in my experience, the "Usually" and "Often" parts are very frequenty ignored in actual deciptions of orcs in D&D materials.
And of course, I do agree that the whole concept of an universally evil race that provides cheap, plentiful enemies to throw against the protagonists should have died long ago.

[Gourtox]

I remember reading about a game that was being developed that was centered around playing as an orc, could have been an indie game. I'll go look for it.

[Karoht]

And even D&D has tended to move away from this- with most races having alignment tendencies rather than being Always X Alignment.Indeed. At least now that tendency is also partly explained by respective culture/s, to some degree. Different areas will sometimes have a different distribution of tendencies, if memory serves me correctly.

Demons and the like are evil because they come from a place of pure evil. It's a bit hokey when you think about it, that there could be a place of and it's polar opposite of [insert inverse of value judgement X].
But these are also games where people throw balls of fire, bolts of lightning, and bend time and space with mere thoughts, so let's not get too involved analysing such. Suspension of disbelief and fantasy and whatnot.

But something like an Orc which does not originate from the plane of [insert value judgement X] which does have social/cultural influences to affect it's alignment tendency which makes much more sense, and makes an NPC or even PC Orc easier to flesh out and give depth to.


On the player side of the equasion, there are some who's morality is very black and white. Humans can never be villians unless we are talking about very steep cliche such as evil sorcerers (because they're all always evil of course), as such they want villains who are evil and therefore easy to justify action and condemnation against. He's an orc, he's a bad guy, it was okay to kill him. It was an alien, they're out to get us, it was okay to kill this one.
Note that I say some and not all. Most gamers I've found are more open minded than this, but you would be surprised at how often I have encountered those who are not.

[I]"Why are we fighting an evil kingdom of [insert non-cliche race]. Aren't there some [insert cliche race] to kill or something?" This has come up when I'm DM'ing more often than I want to admit. Some people really want the cliche, some are in fact that narrow minded or that unimaginative or that bound by their code of morality. One could also view this to mean that they are that immersed in the entertainment medium, or perhaps it is some kind of blend. It could also simply be that the cliche is now an institution. If that is the case, Monsterous Races in games being treated more like people and less like monsters or animals, could be viewed as a break from the institution, and like all such breaks, will be met with mixed reviews.

Thats okay, cliche/institution can be comfortable. In fiction and entertainment.
But for this discussion to cross out of fiction/entertainment, well that conversation becomes much less pleasant, so I'll pass.

[Bayar]

Well the original Warcraft, from '94 had the orcs and humans on essentially the same level. Although I don't remember the campaign from it, that may have been one sided.

I can't think of any setting with an orc as a main character (as RTSs don't really fit that) that seems like it would have a reasonable chance of being first.

IIRC the orcs defeated the humans in WC1, driving them away from Stormwind all the way up to Lordaeron.

[Istari]

Heroes of Might and Magic V:Tribes of the East has Orcs, and other monstrous races as a playable side

[Grif]

Heroes of Might and Magic V:Tribes of the East has Orcs, and other monstrous races as a playable side

To be fair, all the Heroes games had monstrous races as a playable side. In Heroes III, orcs were tagged as neutral, along with goblins, and all the assorted beasties. (As far as alignment goes anyway.)

[BladeofObliviom]

And of course, I do agree that the whole concept of an universally evil race that provides cheap, plentiful enemies to throw against the protagonists should have died long ago.

I would agree with this, with the obvious exception of things that don't actually think for themselves, such as mindless undead.

Perhaps a smaller exception for things that embody evil ideas, such as Demons.

[Gaius Marius]

I would agree with this, with the obvious exception of things that don't actually think for themselves, such as mindless undead.

Perhaps a smaller exception for things that embody evil ideas, such as Demons.

Or Daemon-created creatures. Demonspawns, like the Orcs in Lord of the Rings, or the Warcraft 1 orcs.

I think you might be always chaotic evil if you were engineered by them. That, or also the Reaperspawns (or indoctrinated) characters from Mass Effect Verse.

Wait a minute. Can reaper-indoctrinated characters be brought back?

[BladeofObliviom]

Or Daemon-created creatures. Demonspawns, like the Orcs in Lord of the Rings, or the Warcraft 1 orcs.

I think you might be always chaotic evil if you were engineered by them. That, or also the Reaperspawns (or indoctrinated) characters from Mass Effect Verse.

Wait a minute. Can reaper-indoctrinated characters be brought back?

Sort of. The Thorian was capable of overwriting Reaper Indoctrination, so Shiala was freed from both when the creature was killed. Other than that, particularly strong-willed people can overcome it for short periods, as shown by Matriarch Benezia and even Saren, if you pass a charm/intimidate check.

Also, the Orcs from Warcraft were never Demonspawn, it's just that their leaders made deals with Archimonde that slowly indoctrinated the whole race. Apparently.

[Gaius Marius]

Sort of. The Thorian was capable of overwriting Reaper Indoctrination, so Shiala was freed from both when the creature was killed. Other than that, particularly strong-willed people can overcome it for short periods, as shown by Matriarch Benezia and even Saren, if you pass a charm/intimidate check.

Also, the Orcs from Warcraft were never Demonspawn, it's just that their leaders made deals with Archimonde that slowly indoctrinated the whole race. Apparently.

Indoctrinated on a religious level, but also power-boosting many of their elite with Demonblood. These were clearly absolute evils.

Only deprival might have turned many of them away from this path. But it's so easy to be tempted again.

Seriously, Demon Blood is one damn corrupting thing. Just the fact of drinking blood itself has been considered damn evil for quite some time (before Emo Vampires hit us culturally).

Deliberatly drinking the blood of a Demon was probably one of the absolute damnation.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Indoctrinated on a religious level, but also power-boosting many of their elite with Demonblood. These were clearly absolute evils.

Only deprival might have turned many of them away from this path. But it's so easy to be tempted again.

Seriously, Demon Blood is one damn corrupting thing. Just the fact of drinking blood itself has been considered damn evil for quite some time (before Emo Vampires hit us culturally).

Deliberatly drinking the blood of a Demon was probably one of the absolute damnation.

Only if you accept the WC3 retcon. In WC2, they were rather brutal already. It was the pacts that let them travel to Azeroth (also pre-recton it was the name of the southern kingdom).

[Gaius Marius]

Please explain where in WC2 there might be a doubt cast about the corrupting influence of the demons over the Orcs.

They all seemed pretty unredeemable.

[Karoht]

Please explain where in WC2 there might be a doubt cast about the corrupting influence of the demons over the Orcs.

They all seemed pretty unredeemable.
Warcraft 3 does cast some doubt. After the Orcs defeat in WC2, the Demonic Influence more or less left them, leaving them in a state of malaise and confusion. So without that influence, they weren't horribly violent.
However, the book Rise of the Horde does cast a shadow on that. It's set before the Horde invaded Azeroth/Southern Kingdoms. With a bit of trickery and little else, the Orcs were incited to brutal violence towards the Draenai. This is more because they were outsmarted, but the book does constantly note (specifically, Thrall himself notes this as well) that the moral choices made were not entirely made because they were outsmarted. IE-Treatment of prisoners, women, and children.


Then enter Thrall and the new Horde. Thrall was raised by humans, but plunged into a world of violence. Despite this upbringing, he desires peace more than violence. Thrall was born without the taint as well. Meaning that without the taint and without 'cause' for battle the Orcs are in fact perfectly capable of peace.


============
For further reference, I suggest www.wowpedia.org and look up Thrall and Varok Saurfang. Varok is a veteran of all 3 wars, but also desires an end the violence.
For contrast, also look up Grom Hellscream and his son Garrosh. Prime examples of how the Orcs can still be very brutal when they have cause (or in the case of Garrosh, sort of kind of without cause). I would also recommend reading wowpedia's synopsis on Rise of the Horde.
I give you contrast because while the Orcs do have the capacity for peace, one has to also acknowledge their past deeds and their remaining capacity for violence.

[pendell]

Is there a game earlier than Knight Orc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Orc), which came out in 1987?

ETA: A More informative link (http://l9memorial.if-legends.org/html/ko.html) .



Knght Orc is Level 9´s most innovative and fun-packed adventure to date. Set in three parts, it casts you as an oppressed orc in a magical world where all is not as it first seems. For generations humans have been persecuting orcs, and now it´s time to get your own back. Knight Orc is a challenging game which is truly interactive. Each character leands its own life in the game, and their actions can affect you and the outcome of the adventure. Communication with other characters, lerning spells and solving puzzles are all a vital part of the game if you are to escape the mystical world and take revenge on humankind.



* Written by: Pete Austin.
* Release Date: 1987


Respectfully,

Brian P.