The dynamics of an encounter

[Myth]

So then, I've been thinking about the ebb and flow of an encounter that can be seen in actual play (ie. we are not talking about a "scry&die" SWAT team party of Tier1++ characters, but rather of a powerful adventuring group with players who want to RP and care about the plot but do not succumb to the Stormwind fallacy)

In the beloved GitP the usual response to everything is that "A Wizard did it wins it" A Wizard going for Chained Enervations, Su Forcecage, Gate, Shapechange etc.

Or a Cleric beatstik/Miracle dispenser, or a Druid caster/meleex2 hybrid, or an Archivist etc. etc.

Yes we also give credit to the ToB classes and to generally good builds such as Barbarian/Runescarred Berserker/Somethig/Other thing, or Factotum, Bard, etc.

The usual premesis is that:

1. The party always splatters things in the action economy department (if using one higher-leveled opponent)
2. In case of being overwhelmed by a bunch of lower-level opponents they just splatter them with AOE/cleave/battlefield control
3. The beatsticks deal a lot of damage
4. Everything that is too hard for the beatsticks is taken care of by the Tier 1s
5. There is always someone who has the versatility to do something (Factotum/Bard etc.) to help someone.


In such a case, there is a fine line a DM has to walk.

Throw one too strong BBEG at them (usually a Tier 1 with up two PrCs) and:

- TPK (congratulations on your Rocks Fall check)
- The Tier 1s saved everyone elses's butts (you made the sword guy feel useless)
- The BBEG was played poorly and not accordingly to his Int/Wis scores or you entered a "cutscene" mode (your players lose immersion and suspension of disbelief)
- You fudged or used a God Sue DMPC/DeusExMachina (ie. you suck as a DM and you should ritually cut off your legs with a spoon)

Throw one average BBEG at them (usually a Tier 3 that still outlevels them and has better toys) and:

- They rip him a new one because of the action economy and get his phat lewt. (no challenge)
- He has henchment/minions/allies in which case the smart Tier 1s in the party just focus him and make him look pathetic while the others mop up the mooks (worse than #1 even)
- Like scenario #2 but the mooks are actually useful. In essence you throw a reverse-party at the party. This can go either way, but usually the Tier 1s will still shine brighter than everyone.

I'll not go into throwing lower leveled fights, those are pretty fun for the group and everyone gets to shine. The purpose of this topic is the challenge and the feeling of accomplishment your players get after beating a tough encounter (but not barely surviving a close encounter of the falling rocks variety).

So, what are your suggestions for making a nice fun and challenging encounter that doesn't go horribly wrong and makes everyone feel nice?

Is doing something like having strong enemies purposefully hide/delay actions until the Tier 1s blow their stuff on decoys? A Necropolitan Swashbuckler/Rogue/Assassin/Swordsage with Darkstalker can wait for the Wizard to cast all her stuff and then suddenly appear behind her and do a full-round of backstabbing with Elven Courtblades for example. Does this count as DM hate, or will it make the encounter more interesting?

What about giving melee brutes for the melee guys, and casters (or anti-caster bests with the mageslayer line and nice toys) vs the Tier 1/2s? Does this seem like two separate fights, where the amateurs play on one field and the pros duke it out on a second one that just happens to be close by?

If it's just one BBEG how do you design him to not be stomped by the action economy and yet not make him go Celerity>Timestop>lol you die

What other clever or fun ways can challenge the party apart from the composition of the enemy? Terrain, traps, plot induced (damsel in distress, a timer running out, a Macguffin etc.). I'll especially appreciate the input that comes from actual experience.

[Flickerdart]

High CL anti-spell buffs give the casters something to do - dispel the buffs so they can whomp the guy, or buff their front line - while the beatsticks make it difficult for the BBEG to put the buffs back up. Basically, a DM can build turtle characters even though it's a terrible player tactic, because the players are going to attack the guy anyway, and he's not supposed to win in the end. Plus, from my experience, people tend to favour offense over defense, meaning that you don't need to match their damage output to be scary.

[Myth]

A turtle character still has to pose a threat. If it's just the one guy they will chop him to bits in two rounds (a party of 5 or 6 has a huge advantage in the sheer number of actions per round that they get). Worst case scenario, they whiff for a round or two until his transmutations/illusions go down.

Unless you give him something that can kill enemies. If he's a caster, then coming pre-buffed means you are about to go with the Tier 1 BBEG scenario and that will suck IMO.

If he's a beatstick or Tier 3 who pre-buffed, he normally will be able to deal physical damage and at most, critically threaten one of the party's beatsticks. The point is, that for a single character to be threatening, he either has the potential to TPK them or he can never really threaten the Tier 1s.

[Flickerdart]

It's pretty easy to invest heavily into defenses and still pose a significant threat. And yes, focused dispelling means that his buffs will go down in a couple of rounds, and he'll die in a couple more. But that's how long encounters last. Hell, you don't even need the buffs, since it isn't difficult to whip up a monster that's all but immune to spells (good SR, high saves and immunities are common at high levels, and crimp the style of anyone not prepared for the occasion).

There isn't some sort of vast unbridgeable gap between "T1 god uberman" and "T3 beatstick average joe". You've skipped over an entire tier, for one (which holds the puzzle boss, where you have to figure out how to avoid/counter his trick before you can touch him), or gishes, or illusionists, or people with high Hide modifiers...if your party has such an imbalance of power, then you either tell them to stop or get creative.

As for threatening the T1s without going through the beatsticks? Spell Turning and the like do an entertaining job of that. Ranged attacks. Teleportation. Dispelling. The tyrant's adviser turns out to be a powerful spellcaster. The Paladin's mount is a disguised Druid. The Factotum has a genie in a bottle for a battle when the odds don't suit him. You're the DM, you can do this sort of thing.

[fryplink]

I've found that this is when counterspelling really comes to shine. It's a rather poor option for PC's, but having a Blue and Orange twins (the Blue being a spellcaster, the orange being a large beatstick) there, the Blue defending and the orange dishing out the pain.

For example, against a party of 5 (say, a very well built Barbarian, Factotum, Wizard, Druid and maybe a bard) at level 6. Against a roughly level 10 Sorc and a Level 10 Barbarian (I've only played ToB classes once, and thus don't use them in this type of thread). You build the Sorc to have dispel on his list and a decent spellcraft, as to allow him a decent chance of success but to still allow the wizard to function occasionally. Meanwhile the PC's Barb and Druid are going Toe to Toe with the enemy barb. The Factotum and Wizard are dealing with the Sorc. The Bard is jumping back and forth. The Enemy Sorc has already buffed the enemy barb and himself, so each 1 v 2 will eventually be won by the level 10 (or 12 in Higher OP), but the Bard (or other 3rd wheel) needs to be enough the swing the odds. Look what happened. Everyone was involved, even the bard felt important (replace word "bard" with other 3rd wheel class). The important thing is to keep orange and Blue extra vulnerable to certain classes (Blue will eat the Wizard in a round, Orange will be flying out of barb range)

I'm sure this is simplistic. I've run this encounter and my party did it exactly how they wanted. YMMV. The big thing is, if they focus the Blue, the orange counterspells some of the control effects that turn Blue off, so it remains a challenge. If they all focus orange, Blue eats the wizard, Bard or Factotum. I guess the answer is that the bosses have an answer to 90% of the teir 1's abilities, but not the teir 3's. The Blue and Orange aren't immune to sneak attacks so the factotum is useful, but blue has a ton of HP, thus meaning the druid can't just eat him, but the UberCharging Barb can do enough to be relevant. The Bard is a Bard, and always marginally useful.

[Tyndmyr]

So then, I've been thinking about the ebb and flow of an encounter that can be seen in actual play (ie. we are not talking about a "scry&die" SWAT team party of Tier1++ characters, but rather of a powerful adventuring group with players who want to RP and care about the plot but do not succumb to the Stormwind fallacy)

I DM such a group. Not everyone selects a tier 1, but you can rest assured that everyone is generally very effective, and the party is always going to have at least one caster and at least one charger. I think the current composition is War Hulk mass cleave build with ridiculous reach, a pair of chargers(one of which is also the diplomancer), a beguiler, and a warmage(everything core for race/classes was banned).

[qote]In the beloved GitP the usual response to everything is that "A Wizard did it wins it" A Wizard going for Chained Enervations, Su Forcecage, Gate, Shapechange etc.[/quote]

Unlikely. Wizards are not weak...but people undervalue the effect of forcecage, gate, wish, etc. Bleeding money/xp on win spells costs you notable amounts of power in the long term. Being a coupla levels behind and solidly down on WBL is really not a place you want to be.


Or a Cleric beatstik/Miracle dispenser, or a Druid caster/meleex2 hybrid, or an Archivist etc. etc.

Clerics do beatstick fairly well...but be aware that being buff dependent means two things. First, buffs end up hogging a lot of slots. Second, if surprised, you tend to either lose actions buffing or kind of suck.

Natural Spell IS assumed on all druids, though. That's just a given. Still, they can only do melee or cast on any given action, so it's a bit like being a theurge. Options are sometimes overrated as opposed to pure power.


Yes we also give credit to the ToB classes and to generally good builds such as Barbarian/Runescarred Berserker/Somethig/Other thing, or Factotum, Bard, etc.

The usual premesis is that:

1. The party always splatters things in the action economy department (if using one higher-leveled opponent)[quote]

Yeah, I tend not to use such encounters without at least a few mooks tossed in. If the answer is "charge/splatter", then the fight ends instantly. Meh. Got to have complications.

[quote]2. In case of being overwhelmed by a bunch of lower-level opponents they just splatter them with AOE/cleave/battlefield control

Yeah, we actually used statistics to resolve a fight like this via average amount of opponents faced last friday. The war hulk was averaging like 80 kills a turn off AoOs alone. Granted, this isn't the type of fight I usually run, but in this case, it was appropriate, and it's kind of what he's good at.


3. The beatsticks deal a lot of damage

Yes. The party is level 10...200 hp things tend to drop rapidly. Last one they could actually get to grips with easily died in a single round.


4. Everything that is too hard for the beatsticks is taken care of by the Tier 1s

Eh, it's not really that fine a distinction. When the beatstick can pull off DC 50 standard action diplomacy checks, he's got options. A Tier 4 riding a fanatical tier 1 like a pony is still powerful.


5. There is always someone who has the versatility to do something (Factotum/Bard etc.) to help someone.

Yes. In fact, everyone is expected to have some versatility. One guy was griping about not being able to contribute to a ranged fight...everyone basically was "well, you should have had a backup weapon".


In such a case, there is a fine line a DM has to walk.

Throw one too strong BBEG at them (usually a Tier 1 with up two PrCs) and:

- TPK (congratulations on your Rocks Fall check)

Unlikely. If you're pulling off a TPK with a single BBEG, you really blew the scaling, since action economy means this is...really hard to do.


- The Tier 1s saved everyone elses's butts (you made the sword guy feel useless)

The occasional save, especially if done cleverly, usually gets high fives, not "why did you save me".


- The BBEG was played poorly and not accordingly to his Int/Wis scores or you entered a "cutscene" mode (your players lose immersion and suspension of disbelief)

Cutscene mode does not happen. Also, note that not every BBEG's goal is "kill the party".


- You fudged or used a God Sue DMPC/DeusExMachina (ie. you suck as a DM and you should ritually cut off your legs with a spoon)

Yeah, that's terrible. Totally unnecessary.

In general though, you're running into the same encounter design issue. You're JUST throwing a dude at them. Toss in minions, toss in crazy environments, toss in other objectives. If you're fighting while leaping from chunk to chunk of a toppling tower while also trying to save the hostages inside, it's an entirely different battle.


Throw one average BBEG at them (usually a Tier 3 that still outlevels them and has better toys) and:

- They rip him a new one because of the action economy and get his phat lewt. (no challenge)
- He has henchment/minions/allies in which case the smart Tier 1s in the party just focus him and make him look pathetic while the others mop up the mooks (worse than #1 even)
- Like scenario #2 but the mooks are actually useful. In essence you throw a reverse-party at the party. This can go either way, but usually the Tier 1s will still shine brighter than everyone.

Same, same. The BBEG solo encounter is just not the best option. Use them sparingly.


Is doing something like having strong enemies purposefully hide/delay actions until the Tier 1s blow their stuff on decoys? A Necropolitan Swashbuckler/Rogue/Assassin/Swordsage with Darkstalker can wait for the Wizard to cast all her stuff and then suddenly appear behind her and do a full-round of backstabbing with Elven Courtblades for example. Does this count as DM hate, or will it make the encounter more interesting?

That's not bad. I used a stealthy spotter for a cragtop archer half a mile away. Dropped the psion in two rounds and his cohort in one before they figured out what was going on and triangulated the spotter. Note that they were also engaged in an aerial battle with a dragon in this time as well as destroying a bridge and neutralizing four towers and one small town worth of baddies. The sniper got away, too, though the loss of the spotter hurt him.


What about giving melee brutes for the melee guys, and casters (or anti-caster bests with the mageslayer line and nice toys) vs the Tier 1/2s? Does this seem like two separate fights, where the amateurs play on one field and the pros duke it out on a second one that just happens to be close by?

Don't make the distinction too clear. Make a giant frigging mess of stuff for them to deal with at the same time. Arrow traps in a hall? Boring. Arrow traps in a moving hall you're retreating into while fighting other stuff? Interesting complication. Make the opponents intelligent, and have them set up combos. When there's seventeen different threats on the field, nobody cares about who is dealing with which one, everyone's frantically trying to kill everything without dying themselves, and there is a sufficiently high number of things that need to be done that nobody is really useless.


If it's just one BBEG how do you design him to not be stomped by the action economy and yet not make him go Celerity>Timestop>lol you die

Most of my BBEGs are sufficiently intelligent that taking on the entire party solo is something they consider needlessly risky. The one they were most annoyed by, they never even fought directly...Enchanter/Mindbender that had basically dominated the power structure of a city. They struck a deal with that one. He didn't want them dead...they were well known, popular heroes. Deaths would have looked suspicious. He wanted them gone, but to not blow his cover. Deals were struck.


What other clever or fun ways can challenge the party apart from the composition of the enemy? Terrain, traps, plot induced (damsel in distress, a timer running out, a Macguffin etc.). I'll especially appreciate the input that comes from actual experience.

Grab books. Not fantasy books, mind you...too direct of a rip can often be noticed. Stripping elements of sci-fi, or westerns, or whatever can be awesome.

One day, if I ever have the time, I'll get around to designing a "all the elder evils are awakening at once" campaign and just throw everything on earth at it. I feel like all that craziness will make a campaign actually make it to low epics.

[Myth]

Tyndmyr I like your style! Where is your avatar btw?

[pwykersotz]

Another thing to remember in all this is to make the mooks matter. Say you have one uber guy, 2 class levels above the party, with defensive buffs. Then he has 3 frontline mooks and 2 ranged mooks against a party of six. The mooks (probably 1 or more levels below the party) have low damage output most likely, but they are great for harassing the casters to prevent dispels. Remember that the casters have to make concentration checks against any damage they take, and a chance to fail that is pretty harsh.

This gives the party melee something to clean up in order to let the casters dispel the buffs. Meanwhile, of course, the BBEG is doing something as well. Either completing his evil plan, or also targeting the party.

Of course, if your casters are good, they'll have defenses, but if they do, kudos to them. Their reward for preparation should be to tear through the trash like nothing.

If they are fully prepared and you don't want them to focus fire the BBEG, there are lots of fun homebrew options available. I remember one that was posted on these boards where the BBEG had linked himself to his minions. Any damage/spells he took could be sent to one of them instead.

My favorite method is the puzzle combined with the fight though. For example, before the party has access to Dimension Door or the like, Walls of Force that are held up by relics that the party has to find and destroy while swarmed by mooks is always fun. Or a continuously rising water level for the characters who don't have fly.

[CTrees]

I do, also, think you've got some issues with simple encounter design. Throwing out one massive BBEG can work well sometimes (say, a dragon), but is soooo not the only way to make a boss fight. (Was skimming too much while at work, this was off-base. My apologies.)

For example, the current adventure I'm sending my party through has two "boss fights."

The first is a protracted fight across a long, crumbling bridge, between the two halves of a keep (this was initially going to be a smaller encounter, but my PCs actions force me to add preparations. long story). First, traps (think alchemical landmines) and barracades to work past, with archers at the opposite end of the bridge pelting them. Then, a rogue and a shielded fighter, waiting behind cover to attack anyone who makes it across to a point they could threaten the archers. Finally, the "boss," a polearm-wielding, skilled fighter type, sitting in the back (actually slightly off the bridge, into the next section of dungeon), waiting as a last line of defense, to stop anyone who gets that far. The mooks really aren't tough, individually, but the party needs to move together to avoid the enemy gaining the advantage in action economy (while the first section of bridge will tend to break them up, if they don't act strategically). The boss, however, will fall quickly if the party all acts together, while if someone tries to fight it 1-on-1, they will likely fail miserably. Oh, and there's enough to break line of sight, stopping long range blasting from wiping out everything trivially. If everyone acts together and tactically, the fight should be difficult and varied, but survivable. Otherwise... people will probably die.

The second (and the real boss fight), is somewhat simpler in composition. A large study, near the top of a tower. In it, there are the two elite enemies. One is a heavily armored fighter, the other is a debuff focused bard, with some capability to summon really annoying things. Simple enough; the fighter looks dangerous, but if the bard isn't taken down quickly (he will be played smart), they'll have little chance of survival. More interestingly, the terrain (a study, in partial ruins after a major fight just before the party arrives) will be somewhat obstructed, and BBEG they came to defeat? Lying on the ground, unconcious-but-not-dead (having just been defeated by the new guys). The party gets an extra reward if they bring back said BBEG alive (instead of just his head), so they have a strong incentive to save him, and to avoid area effects and the like (which could finish him off). However, he's still a BBEG, so healing him mid-fight, which would wake him up, may also not be a terrific idea...

Lots of things to think about in both of those, without being puzzle bosses. I'm not saying either is fantastically designed; just that encounter flow can be a LOT more dynamic than what the OP is looking at, even with T1 classes in the mix.

[Myth]

I do, also, think you've got some issues with simple encounter design. Throwing out one massive BBEG can work well sometimes (say, a dragon), but is soooo not the only way to make a boss fight. For example, the current adventure I'm sending my party through has two "boss fights."

Nobody else said I have issues with simple encounter design. Anyway I pointed out some flaws that are to be avoided, not mistakes that I've made myself.

The first is a protracted fight across a long, crumbling bridge, between the two halves of a keep (this was initially going to be a smaller encounter, but my PCs actions force me to add preparations. long story). First, traps (think alchemical landmines) and barracades to work past, with archers at the opposite end of the bridge pelting them. Then, a rogue and a shielded fighter, waiting behind cover to attack anyone who makes it across to a point they could threaten the archers. Finally, the "boss," a polearm-wielding, skilled fighter type, sitting in the back (actually slightly off the bridge, into the next section of dungeon), waiting as a last line of defense, to stop anyone who gets that far. The mooks really aren't tough, individually, but the party needs to move together to avoid the enemy gaining the advantage in action economy (while the first section of bridge will tend to break them up, if they don't act strategically). The boss, however, will fall quickly if the party all acts together, while if someone tries to fight it 1-on-1, they will likely fail miserably. Oh, and there's enough to break line of sight, stopping long range blasting from wiping out everything trivially. If everyone acts together and tactically, the fight should be difficult and varied, but survivable. Otherwise... people will probably die.

This is the stuff I wanted to read - nice use of terrain! Of course, any party with Flight will completely negate this. I'm talking about groups from lvl 10 and upward (I did not state this, but the range of abilities I've described sort of points to a mid-high lvl game)


The second (and the real boss fight), is somewhat simpler in composition. A large study, near the top of a tower. In it, there are the two elite enemies. One is a heavily armored fighter, the other is a debuff focused bard, with some capability to summon really annoying things. Simple enough; the fighter looks dangerous, but if the bard isn't taken down quickly (he will be played smart), they'll have little chance of survival. More interestingly, the terrain (a study, in partial ruins after a major fight just before the party arrives) will be somewhat obstructed, and BBEG they came to defeat? Lying on the ground, unconcious-but-not-dead (having just been defeated by the new guys). The party gets an extra reward if they bring back said BBEG alive (instead of just his head), so they have a strong incentive to save him, and to avoid area effects and the like (which could finish him off). However, he's still a BBEG, so healing him mid-fight, which would wake him up, may also not be a terrific idea...

Lots of things to think about in both of those, without being puzzle bosses. I'm not saying either is fantastically designed; just that encounter flow can be a LOT more dynamic than what the OP is looking at, even with T1 classes in the mix.
This is interesting. However that's still one fairly unoptimized beatstick (if you mean the actual Fighter class) and one Tier 3 that will get murderstomped by 6 adventurers in one round.

[CTrees]

This is the stuff I wanted to read - nice use of terrain! Of course, any party with Flight will completely negate this. I'm talking about groups from lvl 10 and upward (I did not state this, but the range of abilities I've described sort of points to a mid-high lvl game)

True - this is slightly lower level. One or two PCs have some flight capabilities, currently, but that won't be a huge problem, given that the relative abilities in play mean the party really needs to not split up. At higher levels, I'd simply add a roof and walls (with slits for archery, not full windows) instead of having an open bridge.



This is interesting. However that's still one fairly unoptimized beatstick (if you mean the actual Fighter class) and one Tier 3 that will get murderstomped by 6 adventurers in one round.

I don't mean either an actual fighter or a single-classed bard without ACFs. The bard, especially, is going to very rapidly stack enough debuffs to crush the party if not stopped, along with his bardic performance (using perform: oratory - I've got a nice E Nomine playlist set up for the fight :smallwink: ). Also, they aren't of normal PC races. Lots of extra abilities and boosts in play. I didn't feel it was necessary to address the entire builds. Also, my party is at a pretty middling level of optimization, just in general.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, I apparently skimmed overly much, so you have my apologies on that. Was at work, not that that's generally a good excuse for bad forum-ing. Real point was, there are a lot of ways a DM can control the flow of an encounter, simply by adding a few different variables. I'm a big fan of adding multiple different sides, multiple enemies (I tend to avoid "rawr i'm a big, scary, single monster"), and other objectives beyond "kill all the monsters," though that's just me.

[Saph]

Lots of good advice here!

One contribution I'd like to throw in is the idea of layered defences. Basically, the defensive strength of an opponent tends to be directly related to how many defensive "hurdles" you have to clear to nail them. The way you make a single opponent a challenging encounter for 5-6 PCs is by giving the opponent as many defensive layers as possible.

Most CR 1-10 monsters have no more than one good defence, two at the most. A Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) has exactly one defence - it's incorporeality. Get past that (by using force attacks or just putting enough hits into it to get past the 50% chance) and it dies. A Hill Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#hillGiant) also has only one defence - its high HP. A Troll's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) main defensive trick is its regeneration, etc.

Defensive layers can include:

HP - this doesn't make it harder to hit a creature, but usually means it can take more hits before going down.
AC - this does make it harder to hit a creature. Effects that don't target AC usually instead target . . .
Saves - obviously.
Resistance - DR, SR, and other resistances make it harder to hurt something when you do hit them.
Miss chance - This adds another layer of protection to a creature by making it so that even if you do everything right, there's a flat chance that you'll still whiff.
Detectability - If you don't know where something is, it's hard to hurt it.
Distance - If something won't get in your attack range at all it's even harder to hurt it. Flight or other unusual movement modes like swimming, burrowing, ethereality, etc go here.
Ablative defences - This includes stuff like mirror images. They don't last forever but they add another layer of difficulty.
Regeneration - anything that lets you rebuild defences over the course of a fight.
Immunities - You can be flat-out invulnerable to a lot of things.
Information - This is probably the most important one of the lot. Any defence can be bypassed if you know about it. By keeping exact details a secret or at least making them non-obvious you make the task of killing something much harder.
Reactions - This includes free- and immediate-action effects that can be done to foul up an attack that would otherwise hurt you.
The more of these an opponent has, the more of a challenge it becomes for a party to hurt them.

Here's an example, based off a Phantasy Star IV campaign I ran a few years back. The party was 6 level 10 PCs, and I built a CR 14 sorcerer lich to be a mid-campaign boss encounter. The lich had multiple layered defences, as follows:

First of all, the PCs didn't know the opponent was a lich and he was using a disguise to make him appear otherwise. As a result they wasted a few actions trying to hit him with stuff he was immune to. The lich opened the combat casting at them from the darkened archways of a castle courtyard, meaning the PCs had to find him before they could attack him. He was flying and using cover to make it difficult for the PCs to get a clear shot at him, and he was also protected by greater mirror image spells that made picking the right target a pain (oh, and greater mirror images regenerate at the rate of one per round). Dispelling him was difficult due to the images and his CL buffs, and once the party did start to hit him he had a through-the-roof AC as well as resistance to all damage types and all the usual undead immunities. Finally he had a high HP score, a bunch of temp HP, and he was casting Ruin Delver's Fortune nearly every turn to interfere with the party's attempts to hurt him (every round he wasn't casting that he was recasting greater mirror image).

The party did eventually kill him, but it took a LONG time and it was a hell of lot of work. And of course, killing a lich is no guarantee that they won't be back . . .

[Phaederkiel]

Oh, what a nice thread. I like it.


I think the problem is that you think of the boss fight as a fight with all resources available. This should not be the case. There are two possibilities:

a) Boss waiting for the party at a place of his choosing.

Party gets there only after a long series of serious encounters, diversions, flight-attempts by the boss, etcetera, meaning the party should be quite depleted. It is, for instance, a hoot if the party (after said long day) struggles with a well prepared low-tier enemy. Monks can be quite good if your wizards are more or less commoners.

b) Boss comes after the party.

This is even more dangerous, because it can happen at the most unfortunate moments (for example while sleeping, before the cleric could meditate, in the church where they want to get healing...), and the Boss will have brought back up and have an escape plan to try again tommorow.

The overload of factors mentioned here is very nice.

I like the following techniques for myself:

The abush after a hard fight. Use something big and scary enough that they do not bother to conserve spells or powers. On the way home, have them waylayd by some fanatic minion of the now dead boss. Again, the worse the classes these minions have, the more bonus points for style. Most points are awarded if it is a surviving miniboss they curbstomped before and who now looks for some revenge on the poor spent hereos

The spells Confusion / suggestion etc, which have the decent chance that the party has to disable some of their own to survive.

The Boss you cannot distinguish from his peers. 5 lvl1 Fighters. 1 lvl 10 warblade. Mage thinks: Area spell, battlefield control. Warblade charges. Or feigns death and attacks anyone who comes to loot.

Guys that don´t die. The 3 Crusaders with tower shields , Shieldblock and Revitalizing strike readied and shieldmate, improved shieldmate and Phalanx fighting for feats. Or luckfeats. Or Endurance, Diehard and Delay death.
(this is nice if you have really powerful meelee in your party)

Crazy terrain effects and intelligent combined enemies were well described by fryplink and CTrees. Another is giving other goals than plain old "kill him".

Bring that nobles drunken son in is a nice lvl 1 quest.
Or a Hostage situation: the Dangerous Commoner threatens the princess with a knife with the back to a chasm. Do you have spells that do not have a chance to kill her, too?

[Big Fau]

layered defences.

You want to remove fences?

Or did you mean "defenses"?

[CTrees]

Bring that nobles drunken son in is a nice lvl 1 quest.

Heh, that reminded me of a funny story. In my group's first session playing Pathfinder (I wasn't DM), we (then level one) ran into a drunken sentry. We wanted to knock him out, take him away, and interrogate him. We approached him stealthily, and our cleric (healbot-style) won initiative. Alright, he was wielding a mace, and took a whack at the sentry. Rolled a critical, and dealt so much damage he killed the poor sentry instantly - so far into the negatives, there was nothing to be done. Good strategy, with hilarious consequences. It was the first kill of the campaign!


You want to remove fences?

Or did you mean "defenses"?

Maybe s/he is British?

[Tyndmyr]

Tyndmyr I like your style! Where is your avatar btw?

Thanks! No idea what happened to the avatar...I suspect the internet ate it. I'll have to dig out a copy and host it elsewhere, I guess.

And yeah, Layered Defenses are something I use whenever a boss is around...for instance, a ghost assassin is a fun encounter...can study for three rounds, materialize and death attack. Incorporeality is the primary defense, evasion is a secondary defense, and you can add other templates to add additional defenses(such as the location bound template(I forget the exact name)...what was it, heroes of horror? They keep coming back from the dead unless the location is destroyed). That provides a third defense, and we're at a whopping what, CR 6? Balancing this strategy for your party's capabilities is important, as you don't want to go overboard...the above encounter would not be a good idea for a level 2-3 party, for instance. It would be not merely difficult, but would basically guarantee multiple deaths.

[Novawurmson]

I tend to find that the most challenging encounters for my party work like this:

1 "Boss" (an enemy about the same level or higher as the party and with similar optimization as the party)
1-3 "Min-bosses" (Enemies a little bit lower level than the party, and less optimized)
2-8 "Grunts" (Enemies significantly lower level than the party)

The field of battle typically has additional dangers and obstacles that can either harm or help the party if they use them intelligently.