Dread Necromancer tier3? why so?

[Wookie-ranger]

"there is rarely a problem that enough undead cannot solve"
seriously guys! Tier 3 for a DN? its at least tier 2 and maybe even a low tier 1!

lets go through the 'official' tier evaluation challenges:

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyrannical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.


1a: traps in a long cave/dungeon -> undead. just let enough of them walk ahead and eventually there will not be any traps. Alternatively you you can kill the best rogue (of course not your lovely party member :smallbiggrin:)you can find and raise him/her as an awakened undead (+2 to dex as a skeleton is also handy) here.
1b: a black dragon -> undead. what ever undead floats your boat, hyras, trolls, or simply a horde of x. Not as easy as with a wizard, but he will go down eventually. also a black dragon has a line of acid as breath weapon so spread out your minions and move in line (you don't need to hide your numbers)

2:well, apart from the fact that a DN would rather be on the side of the tyrant;
a:to find the leader of the simply look around for someone that might know something and ask, diplomacy is cross-class, but CHA is your MAIN stat! If he says nothing, use Bluff (class skill)which you probably maxed out. if he still says nothing use intimidate, also class skill and you would get a hefty bonus from fear aura! OK, if he is really that stubborn just kill him and use 'speak with dead' (undead solving the situation, again)
b: to convince him, CHA is still your main stat. bluff him or intimidate. if he does not trust you because half the people you talked to ended up dead, buff him and say the tyrant did it to stop the DN from making contact with the leader or the rebellion and that's another reason form him to trust you! :smallcool:

3: Look an army of raw materials is marching towards me:smallbiggrin:
seriously?! just smack them with all your undead (remember that dragon from situation 1? yes, you can animate dragons, look it up).
either let a horde of undead skeletal archers shot the life out of the meatbags while they are stuck with 'evard's black tentacles' (you have that
spell, yes) and the orcs that die simply get animated and send back.
Run out of undead to control? seriously?! as a DN you can have more undead then you can count, but anyway. send some melees in the center of the orc army and simply release control. depending on your interpretation of the rules they will simply attack everything, attack any living thing, fight as self defense, or follow the last command. all options are in your favor.
or if you are not the type for bones and rotting flesh create a few wraiths, sit back, and let the wraithpocalypse begin.



SO.... am i missing something here or did my Tier3 Dread Necromancer just beat ever single Tier challenge?

[ScrambledBrains]

I am no Tier list expert, but I believe the reason the Dread Necro is Tier 3 is because it lacks versatility. Remember, the tier list judges both power in a situation, and the number of responses a class has to said situation. How would a Dread Necro handle a social challenge, for instance?

[Eldest]

The thing that makes him tier three is he has one response to anything: undead. Tiers also covers versatility. So it can't be tier two (no game breaking power) and it can't be tier one (no game breaking power in droves of options), so it is tier three (adequate power, flexibility to cover most situations).

[Psyren]

First off, your premise is wrong - solving diverse tier challenges is expected of a T3, so finding ways to bypass them as a DN doesn't prove that it deserves to be higher - it only proves that it doesn't deserve to be lower.

Instead, what makes a class T1 or T2 is the ability to do everything. A DN's niche is undead; Meanwhile, a wizard, sorcerer or cleric can ALSO do undead, and interplanar travel, and tell the future, and build a stronghold out of nothing, and reduce an entire battlefield to molten glass etc.


Second, the definition of T3 ("Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate") fits Dread Necros to a tee. They're very good at controlling undead, but (as you pointed out) they can do other things when throwing corpses at a problem en masse isn't good enough.

[Flickerdart]

T1s and T2s are made and unmade by their spell lists, and the Dread Necromancer's list is simply terrible. Minions are expensive, and then you have to actually find things you can kill before you animate them to do your bidding. And then you can't bring your horde with you whenever you descend into a dungeon, or go into a city, or need to Teleport to the other side of the continent.

Having a bunch of undead isn't powerful or versatile enough to earn you a T2 badge.

[Pilo]

Could you create a brand new world? No.

Tier 1 and tier 2 classes can!

I think that is enough to show you how dread necromancer is "weak".

Fruthermore, your spell list is limited to a part of necromancy and undeads are generaly weaker than equivalent living creatures.

[fryplink]

I could see an argument for low tier 2 (though not agree with it). Tier one is out of the question. The thing is, DN can be countered by one class feature, and have over half his power and options removed: Turn Undead. Or disruption, or even healing spells. Yes the DN could break the game with undead chains (weights under your control controlling more weights) thus the possible argument for tier 2, but when one class feature can undo you, you aren't any kind of tier 1, and probably aren't tier 2.

[Wookie-ranger]

CHA is main stat. With 18 at first level that's +4 on ever social skill, class or cross-class. if that's not enough, bluff is class and can do everything diplomacy can, just better.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html

edit: that was to answer social situation question.

[Psyren]

CHA is main stat. With 18 at first level that's +4 on ever social skill, class or cross-class. if that's not enough, bluff is class and can do everything diplomacy can, just better.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html

Wow. No, not even close. Diplomancy is much, much more powerful than Bluffmancy, even with Glibness boosting the latter.

[Wookie-ranger]

"Wow. No, not even close. Diplomancy is much, much more powerful than Bluffmancy, even with Glibness boosting the latter."

how so?

[fryplink]

"Wow. No, not even close. Diplomancy is much, much more powerful than Bluffmancy, even with Glibness boosting the latter."

how so?

You have to be bluffing for Bluff to work. Strange huh? Meanwhile Diplomacy works by getting people to trust you. Essentially, Diplomacy makes most bluff checks unnecessary because they are friendly and just likely to trust you, but the inverse is not true. Bluff is more situational.

[Psyren]

"Wow. No, not even close. Diplomancy is much, much more powerful than Bluffmancy, even with Glibness boosting the latter."

how so?

The first problems deal with the timing.

"A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell."
...
"A Bluff check made as part of general interaction always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action), but it can take much longer if you try something elaborate."


Even when you can persuade someone to act based on your lie, you get at most a round of actions out of it, in exchange for at least 1 round burned on your part. So you can actually lose actions from successful bluffing. The feint and message functions take less time but are also even less useful compared to Diplomacy.

Second is the difficulty:

"A Bluff check is opposed by the target’s Sense Motive check."

Bluff is an opposed roll, which means your target can keep pace with your attempt depending on their Sense Motive score and the other modifiers in their favor. The wrong mark can easily negate your Bluff bonuses even with a Glibness on your side, and you're only allowed to retry with the weaker feint and message uses.

Meanwhile, Diplomacy's DC is fixed - it only gets easier as you gain levels. No matter how much Sense Motive the target stacks, the chance to persuade them via Diplomacy remains the same.


Finally, Bluff only comes into play when you're actually bluffing, i.e. lying. If you need to convince someone of the truth, you never even get to roll, and all your Bluff optimization is wasted.

[Toliudar]

This is why bluff and intimidate don't particularly help with scenario 2.

From the Bluff skill:
A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe.

From the Intimidate skill:
The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward.

Using either skill on the rebel leader leads to short-term acceptance, and long term fail. Leaving the DN with the possibility of cross-class ranks in diplomacy, offset by the natural predisposition that people have against people who have murdered their friends and interrogated the corpses in order to find out where they are hiding.

[gkathellar]

CHA is main stat. With 18 at first level that's +4 on ever social skill, class or cross-class. if that's not enough, bluff is class and can do everything diplomacy can, just better.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html

The fact that DNs can theoretically perform Diplomancy does not make them a Tier 1-2 class. Bards can theoretically perform Diplomancy. So can Beguilers. That's not enough to make them Tier 1-2 either.

[SirFredgar]

The fact that DNs can theoretically perform Diplomancy does not make them a Tier 1-2 class. Bards can theoretically perform Diplomancy. So can Beguilers. That's not enough to make them Tier 1-2 either.

I agree.

I play a DN currently in a Gesalt Game (mixed with cleric for teir 1 goodness), but ignoring the Cleric goodies, i see why DN is teir 3. All of my tools are centered around a central theme. While that theme is powerfull, in my opion, it's also not adaptable. I may be able to mass skeleton archers to volly small villages to the ground under my tyranny.... but I will never be able to start my very own Mind-raped version of the Tippyverse because I lack the spell casting versitility to do so. I will never make a Teleport Circle, or a pimp Demi Plane, or shapechange into some horrendous monster.

But I have magic that works (I'm looking at you, Truenamer), so I get to laugh at teir 4 and below as they look up at my teir 3 awesomeness... and I try not to let the Wizards' snickers from above me mess with my head too much.