So I've Been Thinking About Wu Jen...

[Zombulian]

Hey guys, so I've recently been looking into Wu Jen. I noticed that there is no handbook, and that what makes them not optimal is their restrictive spell list. As a solution many people recommend the spell compendium's elemental spell list, but no one has actually compiled Wu Jen spells into one place where it would be easy for people to access. I was thinking about doing this, does anyone think that would be a good idea?

P.S. I was going to make a Wu Jen/Monk gish, probably going into Enlightened Fist. Now, this might have just been my brain going "well that sounds like it would make a lot of sense, so obviously it exists! Herpy derp." But is there a feat that lets Wu Jen and Monk levels stack, for I dunno, unarmed strike and spell secrets? Sounds like it would make a lot of sense flavor wise, but I might be thinking of other things...

[TroubleBrewing]

There is no such feat.

Have you considered... any other option for an unarmed gish? Wu Jen/Monk is a damned nightmare of a train wreck of a hellscape to try and create any kind of meaningful synergy from.

[Urpriest]

Such a list would be helpful.

There isn't a feat that lets Wu Jen and Monk levels stack, but Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk can get you Int-powered Monk abilities, while Superior Unarmed Strike or a Monk's Belt can make up for the lost levels of damage progression.

Edit:

There is no such feat.

Have you considered... any other option for an unarmed gish? Wu Jen/Monk is a damned nightmare of a train wreck of a hellscape to try and create any kind of meaningful synergy from.

It's actually not that bad. Body Outside of Body and Giant Size are kickass Monk buffs.

[NeoSeraphi]

Sounds like it would make a lot of sense flavor wise, but I might be thinking of other things...

Unfortunately, that reasoning has rarely been enough for WotC to give us nice things so far. (The rare exception is the Eberron Campaign setting, which gave us playable lycanthropes, doppelgangers, and constructs)

There is a sorcerer/monk version of it called Ascetic Mage (which, unlike the Devoted Performer feat in the same book, does not allow bards to be lawful and combine with monks, for some bizarre reason). I'm sure it wouldn't be a stretch for you to ask your DM to mess with it and fix it up for wu jen. (Doesn't advance unarmed damage though, but really, you don't need a bunch of dice of damage if you have a halfway decent Strength score)

Edit: Ascetic Mage is in Complete Adventurer.

[Psyren]

Hey guys, so I've recently been looking into Wu Jen. I noticed that there is no handbook, and that what makes them not optimal is their restrictive spell list. As a solution many people recommend the spell compendium's elemental spell list, but no one has actually compiled Wu Jen spells into one place where it would be easy for people to access. I was thinking about doing this, does anyone think that would be a good idea?

A cursory glance shows no Wu Jen handbook so I'd say go for it. There doesn't seem to be one on MMB/BG either.


P.S. I was going to make a Wu Jen/Monk gish, probably going into Enlightened Fist. Now, this might have just been my brain going "well that sounds like it would make a lot of sense, so obviously it exists! Herpy derp." But is there a feat that lets Wu Jen and Monk levels stack, for I dunno, unarmed strike and spell secrets? Sounds like it would make a lot of sense flavor wise, but I might be thinking of other things...

No, but if you're going into EF you wouldn't get much benefit out of something like that anyway before PrCing out. I recommend instead picking up Kung-Fu Genius to key your monk abilities off Int and entering EF as soon as possible.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's actually not that bad. Body Outside of Body and Giant Size are kickass Monk buffs.

Sure, those buffs are awesome, but can we find a class combination that's any MADder? Str, Con, Dex, Wis, AND Int? Should we try and make it a Diplomancer too, just so we can eliminate the need for a dump stat?

When it comes to Monk, less is more. None is the most. The most good. Goodmost.

Plus, Psychic Warrior IS an unarmed gish. I have nothing bad to say about Enlightened Fist, either.

[Urpriest]

Sure, those buffs are awesome, but can we find a class combination that's any MADder? Str, Con, Dex, Wis, AND Int? Should we try and make it a Diplomancer too, just so we can eliminate the need for a dump stat?

When it comes to Monk, less is more. None is the most. The most good. Goodmost.

Plus, Psychic Warrior IS an unarmed gish. I have nothing bad to say about Enlightened Fist, either.

You don't need Wis. If you need the AC, you get Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius. If you don't, you're unlikely to use Stunning Fist either. So you've got the same amount of MAD as an unarmed Psychic Warrior.

[Zombulian]

Hmm yes I may have been thinking of Ascetic Mage, or the feat in Comp Scoundrel that let you stack ninja with monk. Interesting idea, use the Enlightened Fist ability to transfer touch spells through your unarmed strikes and mix it with spell flower. One punch delivers 2 spells! Or more with shenanigans :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

You don't need Wis. If you need the AC, you get Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius. If you don't, you're unlikely to use Stunning Fist either. So you've got the same amount of MAD as an unarmed Psychic Warrior.

Hooray! I love being just as MAD as a monk! I draw my line at being as MAD as a monk, as opposed to say, a paladin or a fighter. Four stats is nothing, but five or six, that's just crazy!

[darksolitaire]

You could use official Monk fix, Swordsage, and then take the Oriental Gish supreme, Jade Phoenix Mage. Just sayin'.

[Psyren]

Sure, those buffs are awesome, but can we find a class combination that's any MADder? Str, Con, Dex, Wis, AND Int? Should we try and make it a Diplomancer too, just so we can eliminate the need for a dump stat?

Your buffs can handle the physical scores - you can get away with middling scores in each. Kung Fu Genius means you can dump Wis and Cha.

Consider that Giant Size can get you north of +30 to your Strength score and up to +16 more on top of that to your grapple check. Do you really need a big number there baseline? And it autoscales, unlike Expansion.

In fact, you get a minimum increase of +16 Str.


Hooray! I love being just as MAD as a monk! I draw my line at being as MAD as a monk, as opposed to say, a paladin or a fighter. Four stats is nothing, but five or six, that's just crazy!

There are not one, but two feats that solve this problem - see above. (Hell, Psions have 3.)

[Timeless Error]

Like darksolitaire said, I would recommend a Wu Jen/Tome of Battle Class (Unarmed Swordsage if you're attached to the unarmed gish concept)/Jade Phoenix Mage. It's a flavorful and effective combination, and it eventually allows you to circumvent dying after the use of Transcend Mortality with Emerald Immolation.

[Zombulian]

You could use official Monk fix, Swordsage, and then take the Oriental Gish supreme, Jade Phoenix Mage. Just sayin'.

BLASPHEMER

Edit: You too Timeless

[Psyren]

JPM/USS (or UWB) are of course superior. But that doesn't make Enlightened Fist and Monk/Wu Jen unplayable. And you can't guarantee that ToB or Psionics will be allowed at all tables.

[NeoSeraphi]

There are not one, but two feats that solve this problem - see above. (Hell, Psions have 3.)

Wu jen, if I recall correctly, do not have mirror image, displacement, blur, or even invisibility. They don't have the spells necessary to keep them alive in melee. Sure your stats can go through the roof but with crappy hit dice and no Con, you're a worse glass cannon than most gishes.

The MAD is much more prevalent here than as a wizard/monk. Your Strength can go high, sure. But what about your Con and your Dex? Get Int to AC, why not? It's not like AC is a terrible mechanic that rarely protects you against CR appropriate enemies.

[Metahuman1]

JPM/USS (or UWB) are of course superior. But that doesn't make Enlightened Fist and Monk/Wu Jen unplayable. And you can't guarantee that ToB or Psionics will be allowed at all tables.

I'm assuming that since the OP is in fact so interested in Wu Jen/Monk/EF opposed to Wu Jen/Swordsage/JPM, that ToB and/or Psionics arn't gonna be allowed in the game the build is for.

This saddens me but anyway.

First level take Kung Fu Genius and if you can get away with it, Faerie Mysteries Initiate. That let's you lose Wis and Con for the most part.

If you can't, that's still ok. Stick LOT'S of self Buffs on yourself (the extend and quicken spell feats and some Metamagic Cost Reducers are golden for this.) and you'll find that anything other then a horrible Strength Score, Dex Score, and Con Score just fine.

And the touch spell thing combined with a solid Str and use of Great Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang will give you plenty of Damage out put.

[Urpriest]

Wu jen, if I recall correctly, do not have mirror image, displacement, blur, or even invisibility. They don't have the spells necessary to keep them alive in melee. Sure your stats can go through the roof but with crappy hit dice and no Con, you're a worse glass cannon than most gishes.

The MAD is much more prevalent here than as a wizard/monk. Your Strength can go high, sure. But what about your Con and your Dex? Get Int to AC, why not? It's not like AC is a terrible mechanic that rarely protects you against CR appropriate enemies.

Wu Jen get Invisibility, Blur, and Displacement. No Mirror Image, but Body Outside of Body is superior. Plus, Polymorph line.

[Psyren]

Wu jen, if I recall correctly, do not have mirror image, displacement, blur, or even invisibility.

You're batting 1 for 4; The only one you managed to get right in that list was Mirror Image.
Not to mention they have other gish-centric buffs: Alter Self, Polymorph, Haste, Heart of Water, the animal buff line (Bull's/Fox's/Cat's), among others.

Ninja'd


The MAD is much more prevalent here than as a wizard/monk. Your Strength can go high, sure. But what about your Con and your Dex? Get Int to AC, why not? It's not like AC is a terrible mechanic that rarely protects you against CR appropriate enemies.

It's really not, you're exaggerating immensely. With a mere 28 point-buy (the lowest) I can still start with 18 Int, dump Wis and Cha, 10 in Str, 14 in Con 12 in Dex. Wu Jen are also not locked out of any elements like Shugenja are - they simply choose one to get a boosted caster level to.

Wizards are more powerful, of course, but if all that mattered was sheer power we'd all be Pun-Pun in every game.

[Zombulian]

I wouldn't be playing a Wu Jen/Monk if I wanted full power :smalltongue:

[Zombulian]

So where should I host said list? Here?