Ray deflection and stormrage

[Hirax]

Stormrage stops all projectile attacks, and ray deflection stops all ranged touch attacks. What ranged attacks would still make it through that? This seems like a cleaner solution than the friendly fire spell, which requires redirection of the attack, raising questions about what a valid target for redirection is.

[Jack_Simth]

Stormrage stops all projectile attacks, and ray deflection stops all ranged touch attacks. What ranged attacks would still make it through that? Targetted spells (such as Magic Missile - so make sure to also pack Spell Turning) and area spells (such as Fireball).

But yes, noncasters will be kinda sunk.

[Hirax]

Targetted spells (such as Magic Missile - so make sure to also pack Spell Turning) and area spells (such as Fireball).

But yes, noncasters will be kinda sunk.

To be clear, stormrage and ray deflection are only being compared with friendly fire, an Examplars of Evil spell. Friendly fire wouldn't stop those either. There's nothing that makes you immune to area and targeted spells, I believe. Which frankly is a good thing. Stormrage and ray deflection strikes me as a better combo because of the other goodies stormrage gets you.

[Douglas]

I was going to say thrown boulders and such would still get through, but it seems Stormrage lacks that clause from Wind Wall.

[AmberVael]

Targetted spells (such as Magic Missile - so make sure to also pack Spell Turning) and area spells (such as Fireball).

But yes, noncasters will be kinda sunk.

While targeted spells and area spells can be attacks that take place at a range, they are not ranged attacks. Ranged attacks involve actual attack rolls.
This is assuming we're going by the specific definition though (which I assume we are, because target and area effects are a pretty obvious way to bypass this).


Incidentally, most spells that use a ranged attack roll rather than a ranged touch attack should work. (I say most to exclude things like Launch Bolt). I can't recall any at the moment, but I think there are some.

Also, depending on how you interpret Stormrage, the Invisible Needle reserve feat (from Complete Mage) may work. It does call it a projectile in the feat description, but it's supernatural and made from force... but even if it doesn't work (all too possible), that's the kind of thing you would have to look out for.

[Hirax]

Non-touch ranged attacks that aren't projectiles? I'm sure there are a few, I guess a better question is whether any of them are worrisome.

[Jack_Simth]

To be clear, stormrage and ray deflection are only being compared with friendly fire, an Examplars of Evil spell. Friendly fire wouldn't stop those either. There's nothing that makes you immune to area and targeted spells, I believe. Which frankly is a good thing. Stormrage and ray deflection strikes me as a better combo because of the other goodies stormrage gets you.
Oh. In that case, if you consider only the defensive aspects (and ignore the flight, lightning bolts, and so on from Stormrage):

Friendly Fire is strictly superior (while the duration lasts) when you have an opponent within 30 feet, as Stormrage and Ray deflection are higher level spells, more spells, and merely negate stuff, while Friendly Fire hurts your opponents.

However, when you do not have an opponent within 30 feet, you have a question:
Does Friendly Fire require their be a real target within range, or can you direct it to target a square, as someone might do if they thought an invisible opponent was about?
If Friendly Fire can redirect to an empty square, then Friendly Fire is strictly superior for as long as the duration lasts.
If Friendly Fire cannot redirect to an empty square, then you need disposable minions to make it valuable (and the value of the spell is dependent upon your supply of disposable minions), and the combination of Ray Deflection + Stormrage wins out.

[AmberVael]

Non-touch ranged attacks that aren't projectiles? I'm sure there are a few, I guess a better question is whether any of them are worrisome.

Given that you've cut out archery, thrown weapons, eldritch blast, and all ranged touch attack spells (which are... pretty much all the good ones), you probably shouldn't be worried. Even if someone does pull out Invisible Needle or Cloud of Knives and they're ruled to work, they're not particularly threatening.

[Jack_Simth]

Given that you've cut out archery, thrown weapons, eldritch blast, and all ranged touch attack spells (which are... pretty much all the good ones), you probably shouldn't be worried. Even if someone does pull out Invisible Needle or Cloud of Knives and they're ruled to work, they're not particularly threatening.
Well, there was that one spell that lets you make a melee attack roll vs. all opponents in a line... and that can be as bad as being in melee, with the right caster.

[Thurbane]

Blood Wind spell might overcome this combo, depending on how you read the wording.

Also, I think the Bloodstorm Blade PrC treats thrown weapons as melee attacks, but I'm a bit wonky on ToB, so not 100% sure about that...

[tyckspoon]

However, when you do not have an opponent within 30 feet, you have a question:
Does Friendly Fire require their be a real target within range, or can you direct it to target a square, as someone might do if they thought an invisible opponent was about?
If Friendly Fire can redirect to an empty square, then Friendly Fire is strictly superior for as long as the duration lasts.
If Friendly Fire cannot redirect to an empty square, then you need disposable minions to make it valuable (and the value of the spell is dependent upon your supply of disposable minions), and the combination of Ray Deflection + Stormrage wins out.

I'm reasonably sure you can bounce it to an empty square- it doesn't seem to be using 'target' as in a Targeted spell, more the non-game-reserved meaning of 'intending to hit a particular area'.. and there are rules for targeting spaces and objects in that fashion that you can use. It's a really horribly written spell, tho, both with that potential confusion between the intended kind of target (if you insist you need a target such as you would use for a Targeted spell, I would have to point out that strictly speaking arrows and rays and such aren't targeted that way either, and so pretty much nothing ever qualifies for Friendly Fire) and yet another bit where a writer was unaware of what an 'instantaneous duration' really does. RAW, casting the spell once as an immediate action gives you its protection forever after (well, you gain the ability to 'cast the spell', which doesn't necessarily require having it prepared or even an appropriate spell slot..even if it does, one casting and you can spontaneously use Friendly Fire whenever you need it.)