Players Tore This Session Up! Need help balancing.

[SowZ]

Okay. The party are all fourth level half-dragons. No flaws or traits allowed. 32 point buy. Max HP first HD then average health. We had our first session today.

There is an elven non-spellcasting ranger, (archer path,) a human rogue, (archer build,) and an orcish barbarian, (smash things build.) The ranger effectively has a wolf companion. That is the party and they have no aid to speak of. Weapons are, respectively, a +1 foldable shortbow, (a custom enchantment that allows the bow to fold to the size of a dagger,) a +1 keen silver greataxe, and a +1 seeking longbow.

Party equipment other than standard issue stuff, (silk ropes and some minor poisons,) includes a stone of continous minor healing. Everyone has mastercrafted armor of their choice. All weapons are coated in silver. They are at their WBL for their class levels but that doesn't factor in their LA. Since LA is usually weaker than class levels and they don't have all that great of gear and there are only three of them and they are all at Tier 4, I pegged them as able to fight EL5 with moderate difficulty but little chance of dying. I was wrong, I suppose.

They tore up. First encounter they escaped from since it was a group of wererat assassins and only one member had silver weapons. They have since obtained silver arrows. The next encounter was really more of a mood setting thing. It wasn't a real threat. Next there was a werewolf, four first level fighters, a third level warrior, and a level two archer who all hit a total of twice. I expected the party to win out easily enough but it was supposed to at least soften them up for the werebear about to come. We stopped at a breathing point before the werebear shows up.

But they just dominated. Well, my fault for forgetting how hard that +4 to natural AC is to overcome. They dealt decent damage, too, with the barbarian and rogue both able to drop a werewolf in one hit and usually able to do it in two. I want to make up for last session with a couple uphill battles. The session will pick up with everyones breath weapons free, everyone at full HP except for the barbarian at 40, (lots and lots o' con...) and the barbarian with both rages left.

But I know that if I swing too far in the opposite direction I could be looking at a TPK, especially with no casting and only three members. It is a tough balancing act so I want some others to double check me and make suggestions.

How does this sound?

A werebear, a werewolf, a second level archer providing cover, and fifteen or so standard fare wolves surrounding the party. The wolves will rarely hit the AC22, (10% of the time assuming normal strikes,) that most of the party is sporting but they will occasionally get a hit in and provide flanking threats. (I am also using the UA facing rules.) I expect at least a couple members to blow their breath weapons on the wolf hordes and take them out quickly and am interested to see their tactics after this point. (They have solid tactics.) Does that sound like too much for characters that do an average of 10-20 damage on a hit with 22 AC and anywhere from 20-60 health?

For the final fight, take a Wyvern that is advanced 3 HD, (but not a size class,) after breath weapons are expended but health is restored. How does that sound?

I would really like feedback and possible restructuring advice. Thanks.

[onemorelurker]

A werebear, a werewolf, a second level archer providing cover, and fifteen or so standard fare wolves surrounding the party. The wolves will rarely hit the AC22, (10% of the time assuming normal strikes,) that most of the party is sporting but they will occasionally get a hit in and provide flanking threats. (I am also using the UA facing rules.) I expect at least a couple members to blow their breath weapons on the wolf hordes and take them out quickly and am interested to see their tactics after this point. (They have solid tactics.) Does that sound like too much for characters that do an average of 10-20 damage on a hit with 22 AC and anywhere from 20-60 health?


I'd replace the archer with a Warlock filling the same role. You said that your earlier archers didn't hit, so replacing them with something that can do the same thing but that attacks touch AC rather than normal AC might get the effect you want.

I feel similarly about the werewolf as I do about the archer: if it didn't challenge the players in earlier encounters, it won't in this one either. Replacing it with a caster might be a little much, since it's a small party with no casters, but at least throw in a reasonably challenging fighty opponent (i.e. not the wolves) without a weakness to silver. A dire wolf, maybe?

EDIT: After actually consulting my books for CRs and whatnot, I'd say that, aiming for EL 8, your penultimate encounter should consist of the werebear and something like a 4th-level Warlock plus 2 brown bears. Flavor with more or fewer bears if you need to adjust the difficulty for some reason.

[Ernir]

Okay. The party are all fourth level half-dragons. No flaws or traits allowed. 32 point buy. Max HP first HD then average health.

everyone at full HP except for the barbarian at 40, (lots and lots o' con...) and the barbarian with both rages left.
This makes it sound like them being "fourth level half-dragons" means they are characters with four class levels and the half-dragon template. Correct?

Since LA is usually weaker than class levels and they don't have all that great of gear and there are only three of them and they are all at Tier 4, I pegged them as able to fight EL5 with moderate difficulty but little chance of dying. I was wrong, I suppose.
I think you're right about you being wrong.

Three half-dragons with four class levels each is a party of three ECL 7 characters. I suggest you treat it as a weak party of ECL 7 characters rather than a strong party of ECL 4 characters. (Also, they really should have some of their ECL-appropriate gear.)

A CR 5 monster is not a challenge for a full-fledged party of ECL 7s. A CR 7 monster is an appropriate speed bump for such a party, and a CR 9+ monster would qualify as a tough fight.
Of course, CRs don't always mean anything. But they are the starting point we have (and the one you're using).


A werebear, a werewolf, a second level archer providing cover, and fifteen or so standard fare wolves surrounding the party. The wolves will rarely hit the AC22, (10% of the time assuming normal strikes,) that most of the party is sporting but they will occasionally get a hit in and provide flanking threats. (I am also using the UA facing rules.) I expect at least a couple members to blow their breath weapons on the wolf hordes and take them out quickly and am interested to see their tactics after this point. (They have solid tactics.) Does that sound like too much for characters that do an average of 10-20 damage on a hit with 22 AC and anywhere from 20-60 health?
The wolves and the archer are glorified environmental effects. The Lycanthropes have a better chance of doing something, but I wouldn't be too worried. Comes down to dice and tactics, I suppose.


For the final fight, take a Wyvern that is advanced 3 HD, (but not a size class,) after breath weapons are expended but health is restored. How does that sound?
Could be difficult if the smashyguy has no way of projecting his damage. But you do have a ranged-heavy party.

Mostly I'd be worried about this being over really quickly compared to the monster extravaganza just prior to this fight.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay. The party are all fourth level half-dragons. No flaws or traits allowed. 32 point buy. Max HP first HD then average health. We had our first session today.

There is an elven non-spellcasting ranger, (archer path,) a human rogue, (archer build,) and an orcish barbarian, (smash things build.) The ranger effectively has a wolf companion. That is the party and they have no aid to speak of. Weapons are, respectively, a +1 foldable shortbow, (a custom enchantment that allows the bow to fold to the size of a dagger,) a +1 keen silver greataxe, and a +1 seeking longbow.

Party equipment other than standard issue stuff, (silk ropes and some minor poisons,) includes a stone of continous minor healing. Everyone has mastercrafted armor of their choice. All weapons are coated in silver. They are at their WBL for their class levels but that doesn't factor in their LA. Since LA is usually weaker than class levels and they don't have all that great of gear and there are only three of them and they are all at Tier 4, I pegged them as able to fight EL5 with moderate difficulty but little chance of dying. I was wrong, I suppose. A 4th level half-dragon is ECL 7.


They tore up. First encounter they escaped from since it was a group of wererat assassins and only one member had silver weapons. They have since obtained silver arrows. The next encounter was really more of a mood setting thing. It wasn't a real threat. Next there was a werewolf, four first level fighters, a third level warrior, and a level two archer who all hit a total of twice. I expected the party to win out easily enough but it was supposed to at least soften them up for the werebear about to come. We stopped at a breathing point before the werebear shows up. These are pathetically under CR'd encounters. Of course they're going to 'tear up'.


But they just dominated. Well, my fault for forgetting how hard that +4 to natural AC is to overcome. They dealt decent damage, too, with the barbarian and rogue both able to drop a werewolf in one hit and usually able to do it in two. I want to make up for last session with a couple uphill battles. The session will pick up with everyones breath weapons free, everyone at full HP except for the barbarian at 40, (lots and lots o' con...) and the barbarian with both rages left.+4 to AC isn't really all that special, actually. What you need to do is try using something within shouting distance of their ECL.


But I know that if I swing too far in the opposite direction I could be looking at a TPK, especially with no casting and only three members. It is a tough balancing act so I want some others to double check me and make suggestions.

How does this sound?

A werebear, a werewolf, a second level archer providing cover, and fifteen or so standard fare wolves surrounding the party. The wolves will rarely hit the AC22, (10% of the time assuming normal strikes,) that most of the party is sporting but they will occasionally get a hit in and provide flanking threats. (I am also using the UA facing rules.) I expect at least a couple members to blow their breath weapons on the wolf hordes and take them out quickly and am interested to see their tactics after this point. (They have solid tactics.) Does that sound like too much for characters that do an average of 10-20 damage on a hit with 22 AC and anywhere from 20-60 health?

For the final fight, take a Wyvern that is advanced 3 HD, (but not a size class,) after breath weapons are expended but health is restored. How does that sound?

I would really like feedback and possible restructuring advice. Thanks.

Here's what I'd suggest:

I like the idea of Warlock. They're good for plunking people, but not particularly lethal. However, their invocations can be quite lethal, if used properly.

I'd throw at them some Goblin Warlocks, probably around level 6, so they get one Lesser invocation.

Walk Unseen is a lot of fun. Ambushing with invisibility at least gives your NPC's the first round to fire with. Sure, they'll get chopped up after that, but you've made them *feel* it.

If someone's got a poor Fort save (not likely, given the party structure), Beshadowed Blast can be very obnoxious... 50% miss chance, have a nice day.

If the warlocks all have Devil's Sight, then spamming Darkness in the area is a good way for them to get Concealment. Among other things, that shuts down the precision-based damage from the Rogue. Entropic Warding is also a good way to be stealthy and have a miss chance against ranged attacks.

Flee The Scene makes for an interesting sniper build, since he's constantly moving all over the place.

Fell Flight gives you WINGS! Specifically, Fell Flight + Entropic Warding = fun times. You stay out of melee reach of the barbarian, plink your puny 3d6 EB's down, and have a 20% miss chance on any of their ammunition.

Also, if any of the warlocks has a Wand of Grease... that would be good loot for the Rogue if he's got UMD as a class skill, and quite dangerous against this party.

[SowZ]

I'd replace the archer with a Warlock filling the same role. You said that your earlier archers didn't hit, so replacing them with something that can do the same thing but that attacks touch AC rather than normal AC might get the effect you want.

I feel similarly about the werewolf as I do about the archer: if it didn't challenge the players in earlier encounters, it won't in this one either. Replacing it with a caster might be a little much, since it's a small party with no casters, but at least throw in a reasonably challenging fighty opponent (i.e. not the wolves) without a weakness to silver. A dire wolf, maybe?

A dire wolf would maybe be better, yeah. Maybe I should even make three of the wolves dire wolves? Changing the archer to something more substantial would be a good idea as well.


This makes it sound like them being "fourth level half-dragons" means they are characters with four class levels and the half-dragon template. Correct?

I think you're right about you being wrong.

Three half-dragons with four class levels each is a party of three ECL 7 characters. I suggest you treat it as a weak party of ECL 7 characters rather than a strong party of ECL 4 characters. (Also, they really should have some of their ECL-appropriate gear.)

A CR 5 monster is not a challenge for a full-fledged party of ECL 7s. A CR 7 monster is an appropriate speed bump for such a party, and a CR 9+ monster would qualify as a tough fight.
Of course, CRs don't always mean anything. But they are the starting point we have (and the one you're using).


The wolves and the archer are glorified environmental effects. The Lycanthropes have a better chance of doing something, but I wouldn't be too worried. Comes down to dice and tactics, I suppose.


Could be difficult if the smashyguy has no way of projecting his damage. But you do have a ranged-heavy party.

Mostly I'd be worried about this being over really quickly compared to the monster extravaganza just prior to this fight.

Yep, four class levels. I haven't used CR much in the past and have felt better at ballparking it and having the players actions result in whatever monsters they piss off. Since I am used to parties of four to five with a mix of full casters, they can usually win fights that I am sure are above the suggested CR. With only three players all going martial? I am a bit more concerned and am trying to find a specific balance. Getting the right challenge level has never been my strong suit.

I know they should be ECL 7. But since they would be stronger if they had 7 class levels rather than a pricey template I wasn't sure how to take it forward. But I am probably being too conservative. Treating them as weak ECL 7s is probably what I'll do. The wolves are mainly to give flanking bonus/expend breath weapons/be a cool distraction. You are right in that they won't be that effective. I mentioned earlier turning some of the wolves into dire wolves. That could shake it up. Too much? I would be concerned of them getting into melee too quickly is the thing.

What would make a fight against a Wyvern last longer? I have the problem of action economy to deal with as far as just slapping on more hit points. Perhaps a young Red Dragon would be better game? Any ideas here?

See, I know the Barbarian player gets fun from a high kill count, (some wolf mooks are partially for his benefit, partially because a bunch of wolves surrounding the party while a real threat prepares is a cool image, I think,) and he likes taking damage, (crazy, right? Probably because he wants his 50+ HP to be useful.)

The rogue is a smart character with a smart player who likes being tactical. I don't think his satisfaction would be diminished if the party won a battle without a scratch as long as it took good tactics to win that well. I want to make a battlefield he has to think his way through since that is what he enjoys doing.

The ranger player is someone who likes balance. If a campaign is too easy, she gets bored. If it is over the top difficult, she gets frustrated. Without fudging the dice or rules and by making rewards be worked for I hope to make everyone happy. With only three players this shouldn't be overly difficult I should think.

As for gear, I think it is time they got some access to magic armor...


A 4th level half-dragon is ECL 7.

These are pathetically under CR'd encounters. Of course they're going to 'tear up'.

+4 to AC isn't really all that special, actually. What you need to do is try using something within shouting distance of their ECL.



Here's what I'd suggest:

I like the idea of Warlock. They're good for plunking people, but not particularly lethal. However, their invocations can be quite lethal, if used properly.

I'd throw at them some Goblin Warlocks, probably around level 6, so they get one Lesser invocation.

Walk Unseen is a lot of fun. Ambushing with invisibility at least gives your NPC's the first round to fire with. Sure, they'll get chopped up after that, but you've made them *feel* it.

If someone's got a poor Fort save (not likely, given the party structure), Beshadowed Blast can be very obnoxious... 50% miss chance, have a nice day.

If the warlocks all have Devil's Sight, then spamming Darkness in the area is a good way for them to get Concealment. Among other things, that shuts down the precision-based damage from the Rogue. Entropic Warding is also a good way to be stealthy and have a miss chance against ranged attacks.

Flee The Scene makes for an interesting sniper build, since he's constantly moving all over the place.

Fell Flight gives you WINGS! Specifically, Fell Flight + Entropic Warding = fun times. You stay out of melee reach of the barbarian, plink your puny 3d6 EB's down, and have a 20% miss chance on any of their ammunition.

Also, if any of the warlocks has a Wand of Grease... that would be good loot for the Rogue if he's got UMD as a class skill, and quite dangerous against this party.

Yeah, not too familiar with CR. Thing is, when I have DMed for this group in the past, I have ended up killing off a character every other session. With only three players all non casters I think I swung far in the other direction to avoid such casualties. But yeah, I probably should have familiarized myself more with CR. These are interesting suggestions and tactics that could damage the party and make for an interesting tactical scenario. I'll definitely have to look into a warlock as an enemy.

[onemorelurker]

The wolves are mainly to give flanking bonus/expend breath weapons/be a cool distraction. You are right in that they won't be that effective. I mentioned earlier turning some of the wolves into dire wolves. That could shake it up. Too much? I would be concerned of them getting into melee too quickly is the thing.


Despite what I said above, I'm not sure dire wolves would be quite enough if you're looking for strong melee monsters. My new recommendation is bears. :smallbiggrin:


What would make a fight against a Wyvern last longer? I have the problem of action economy to deal with as far as just slapping on more hit points. Perhaps a young Red Dragon would be better game? Any ideas here?


A young red dragon gets the same number of attacks at better bonuses than a wyvern, so yeah, it would be a tougher fight, which sounds like what you want. The only real upside to the wyvern in this situation is its venom, which is sweet treasure for a poison-using party. If you did want to make the wyvern more dangerous, advancing it and adding a second (maybe not advanced) one would make the fight last a bit longer.

[SowZ]

Okay. How about this. One Werebear, One Brown Bear, Two Dire Wolves, 6 Wolves, and what may be a low-mid level Warlock.

[onemorelurker]

Okay. How about this. One Werebear, One Brown Bear, Two Dire Wolves, 6 Wolves, and what may be a low-mid level Warlock.

The number of regular wolves is largely irrelevant, so put in as many as you think your Barbarian's player will find fun. Otherwise, that looks like a decent encounter. If it ends up being too easy, have a couple more animals (brown bears or dire wolves) show up midway through.