Things to take to boost Grappling.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm working on a homebrew, and am looking for some inspiration. Any Class, Feat, Spell, whatever. I'd like to know about it, and where I can find it. Looking for some inspiration on something that's currently a bit of a dead end.

Anything that boosts grappling would be of great help, thank you.:smallsmile:

[Feytalist]

Jotunbrud is the one I can think of at the moment. A feat in Races of Faerun that lets you count as large for Strength checks when it benefits you. A nice +4 bonus to grappling, tripping and so on.

[sonofzeal]

Three more obscure ones...

Gloves of Titan's Grip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#glovesofTitansGrip): 3/day, 7 rounds, +8 on grapple checks. 14,000.

Aberrant Blood: feat, from LoM, gives +2 on grapple

Combat Stability: feat, from PHB2, requires Combat Focus, gives... mmm... I think it's +4 on opposed checks to resist Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, and the like.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, thanks.

Query: Are there any items that ignore the freedom of movement spell? If not, would it be overpowered to give a grappler the ability to ignore the spell and similar effects? I don't have much experience in this area (So I probably shouldn't be making a homebrew involving it, but I've had worse ideas) so I figured I should ask before deciding on anything.

[sonofzeal]

Alright, thanks.

Query: Are there any items that ignore the freedom of movement spell? If not, would it be overpowered to give a grappler the ability to ignore the spell and similar effects? I don't have much experience in this area (So I probably shouldn't be making a homebrew involving it, but I've had worse ideas) so I figured I should ask before deciding on anything.
There's no effect I know except for AMF or Dispels. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, the game needs less "NO" buttons.

Honestly, I'd rather just houserule FoM so it's a "mere" +20 on those checks. That makes it entirely beatable, given a Wizard's terrible Strength and BAB.

[Mystic Muse]

There's no effect I know except for AMF or Dispels. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, the game needs less "NO" buttons.
Yeah, agreed.



Honestly, I'd rather just houserule FoM so it's a "mere" +20 on those checks. That makes it entirely beatable, given a Wizard's terrible Strength and BAB.

Well, I can't quite do that, but I can put in the homebrew that it treats Freedom of Movement as a +20 to the check rather than outright immunity to being grappled?

[Tvtyrant]

The Balhannoth has an Anti-magic field that effects things it is grappling. So if you shapechange into one you can hold the person your grappling even if they have FoM.

[sonofzeal]

Well, I can't quite do that, but I can put in the homebrew that it treats Freedom of Movement as a +20 to the check rather than outright immunity to being grappled?
I'd put it at +20 as just default, but for a feat benefit I'd want a much smaller benefit, or even just ignore it entirely. A whole feat to counteract one specific spell should be good at countering that one specific spell.

[Mystic Muse]

I'd put it at +20 as just default, but for a feat benefit I'd want a much smaller benefit, or even just ignore it entirely. A whole feat to counteract one specific spell should be good at countering that one specific spell.

+20 would be the default. This would be an ability a monster class is getting, not a feat. I want it to be focused on charging, bullrushing and grappling, so I want to give it abilities that make those options look good.

EDIT: Never mind, focusing on just Grappling. Too hard to fit all of that in appropriately.

[Socratov]

another great grapple suggestion is ofcourse: be Crocodile dundee, open dragon 326 (p 97) and read about the beast wresteling style, as well as a grappeling animal companion?

[Hirax]

Fearsome grapple, flaying tendrils, and extend tentacles is a spell combo that I'm quite fond of. The heroics spell, which grants you a fighter bonus feat, can be added if you'd like to boost grappling even more. Multiple castings could get you improved grapple, close quarters fighting, and other grapple related feats.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you're homebrewing something about grappling, what should concern you more than freedom of movement is the fact that you automatically fail grapple checks made to grapple a creature two or more Size categories larger than you. Trust me, that will come up a hell of a lot more than a single spell.

Also, sonofzeal, freedom of movement isn't a wizard spell. Admittedly, wizards can gain access to it through the use of the heart spells in Complete Mage, but the spell itself they don't have.

Edit: More obscure ways-

The Competition Domain power from the Spell Compendium (iirc) grants you a +1 bonus on all opposed rolls. The psychic warrior power grip of iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm) can make you an absolute beast at grappling if you have a high ML and you augment it enough, but do note that it won't stack with gloves of titan's grip. The wu jen spell giant size from Complete Arcane will make you Colossal at level 17-18+ (somewhere around there) and give you a +32 size bonus to your Strength score, so that's a total +32 to grapple right there, if you were Medium.

[stack]

Check out the Pathfinder monk tetori archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) for ideas. For instance, it can use its ki pool to negate freedom of movement. It can also negate polymorphs, a nice touch versus wizards. All the abilities should be translatable to 3.5, take whatever is needed.

[Aerlock]

If you're homebrewing something about grappling, what should concern you more than freedom of movement is the fact that you automatically fail grapple checks made to grapple a creature two or more Size categories larger than you. Trust me, that will come up a hell of a lot more than a single spell.

Could you point me to the rules on that? I have a build that might be negatively impacted by this. I never read this in the rules initially and can't find it in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)

Thanks!
- Aerlock

[Myth]

1st. rule of grappling - be Large, or Huge or as big as you can be.
2nd. rule of grappling - Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) gives you the finger, while the printed Epic spell Let Go Of Me (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/letGoOfMe.htm) is pathetic. Sense - it doesn't make it.
3rd. rule of grappling - never ever take Reaping Mauler aka. the bag of suck.

Things that are good and stack with grappling well: full BAB, lots of STR, size increases, Bear Spirit Totem Barbarian ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ), Bear Warrior PrC, Warshaper PrC.

Consider Runescarred Berzerker for the AMF-ey stuff they get to cast.

[Greenish]

Could you point me to the rules on that? I have a build that might be negatively impacted by this. I never read this in the rules initially and can't find it in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)Step 3.
…

…

You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

[Aerlock]

Step 3.
…

…

You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

Ahh... I see now. I somehow misinterpreted that when I read and re-read it. So this only comes into play if you are attempting to grapple something bigger and hold it, not the other way around? There are no auto-grapple of smaller creature rules?

Thanks!
- Aerlock

Edit:
P.S. Is there any way to gain a benefit to grappling from having extra limbs/attacks, other than extra attempts at grappling? Also can you initiate grapples with Natural Attacks used as secondary attacks after all your BAB iteratives?

[Rubik]

The best way to grapple is to have someone else do it (ie, summon something). You're neutering yourself as much as your opponent, and it lets other foes on the battlefield stab you while you're busy.

Find ways to make your class NOT have this issue, even if it's something like 'take a -10 penalty to be considered not-grappled while grappling at the expense of the use of one hand'.

[Darjh]

The improved grab ability would be good for yourself or summoned creatures. Although, it only works on creatures smaller than you unless specified otherwise. (Choker's improved grab works on creatures two sizes larger than it)
Improved grab also allows you to keep a hand free and not be grappled yourself, albeit at a large penalty of -20. (there are two feats in SS that remove it completely, but that's a steep investment)
Something to consider if you summon or polymorph into anything.

[hex0]

...
3rd. rule of grappling - never ever take Reaping Mauler aka. the bag of suck...


4th. Play a Tash build Monk/Psychic Warrior
5th. Take the Scorpion's Grasp feat asap, then take Roundabout Kick

Has anyone built a grappling monstrosity that doesn't have Improved Grapple or IUS? I'm looking at Bear Fang, actually. Could you make a Trickster Spellthief/Duskblade/Daggerspell Mage and be viable? Probably not but I'd like to see someone try. :smallwink:

[HCL]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=585.0

Heres a handbook for you. Magic of Incarnum can help grappling out a lot

[tyckspoon]

Ahh... I see now. I somehow misinterpreted that when I read and re-read it. So this only comes into play if you are attempting to grapple something bigger and hold it, not the other way around? There are no auto-grapple of smaller creature rules?


That's correct. Mind, if you are trying to grapple something 2 sizes smaller, your grapple score is probably enough higher than your opponent's that you are quite unlikely to fail (between size bonuses and usually much greater Strength associated with greater size), but it's not an automatic success.

[Yanagi]

Option 1: Wildshape Grappler

Start with: Druid or, if available, the Wildshape Ranger variant.

Ain't nothing wrong with Druid for twenty levels 20; Huge size, Plant forms have Improved Grab, lots of spells to augment you, and an animal companion to dogpile the enemy with you.

One route is through Barbarian: Rage by itself is a good STR boost, but it leads to the PrC Bear Warrior, and Bear Warrior back-ends you into some of the good shapeshifter PrCs like Nature's Warrior and Warshaper. Also, you get the Brown Bear form at level 5, which means Large Size plus Improved Grab.

Wildshape-variant Ranger, by contrast, you raise to level 5 (WS), or to 8 (Large forms). Then start tinkering with WS-boosting prestige classes. Speaking of which:

Master of Many Forms. You lose casting if you're a druid, but you can hit Gargantuan by 15 and shop for the best combo of special attacks and abilities. WS Ranger to MoMF is...awesome. The class can be a dip: MoMF 7 is a common choice because it gets you Supernatural Abilities, but MoMF 3 can be fun because you get the Man-shaped monster types (downside: you're only Large).

Nature's Warrior: 5/5 BAB and a full panoply of WS-enhancing skills, but there's one option you can dip to get--Nature's Armament (serpent coils); any form with Improved Grab gets +4 to grapple and d8+STR damage on winning an opposed check. Also good it that its levels count towards your WS advancement.

Warshaper: not per se a grappler, but a 5-level bonanza of nifty features. Immunity to crits (1), boosted STR and CON (2), +5' reach (3)....

Daggerspell Shaper: not really my cup of tea, but paired with the Savage Grapple feat you can do sneak attack damage while in a grapple. That might be something to build on towards optimization, particular given the CF that transfers your dagger's enhancements to your claws while in WS. Two visible downsides are slower achievement of Large size and no access to Huge size or Plant types. Since it's a 2WF class, it might be worthwhile to also look at acquiring Pounce through spells, the feat Lion's Pounce, or a WS form.

Notable feats for Wildshape:

Aberrant Blood (flexible limbs) grants a +2 to grapple, and qualifies you for:
Aberrant Wildshape, which grants you aberration shapes (constrained by HD and Size just like animals). There's a bunch of good grapplers amongst the aberrations, and at a range of HD. With just MM1 you're good to go, but adding Lords of Madness (and further splatbooks) is a big boost. This a good substitute if you're not interested in Master of Many Forms.

Large and Small; from Complete Champion, it allows expenditure of a WS use to grow your normal body one Size Category bigger or smaller...but the prereq is WS (large). Maybe useful for someone with equipment they want to exploit.

Spells for Druids (Spell Compendium, PHB2 and PHB):

Entangling Staff (d3, w4): On a successful attack the quarterstaff can grapple as a free action with no AoO, with a +8 bonus. It does 2d6 damage initially and 2d6/round until released.
Enhance Wildshape (d4): boosts one WS use and gets you a Plant shape, [Ex] abilities of a form, or a +2 Strength boost.
The Bite of the ... spells are greater boosts for physical traits.
Spirit Jaws (d3) is a sweet spell that grapples and damages from Medium range. Very good for locking down wizards.
Bull's Strength (d2) and Animalistic Power (d2) are also good boost spells.

Option 2: Power-enhanced Grappler

The starting point here is Psionics, specifically the 1st-tier power Expansion. It's like enlarge person, but with the extra that it can be augmented: for 6 extra pp you can become 2 Size Categories Larger. The best starting point is the 3/4 BAB Psychic Warrior (IMO), because they have the supplementary powers that boost your grapple...Psion might be doable.

Expansion (pw 1) as above.
Animal Affinity (pw 2) this is the "+4 to an ability score" power.
Grip of Iron (pw2) grants +4 to grapple, and can be augmented for another +2 per 4pp.

PsyWarrior 5 gets you 7pp and all of the above plus two other 1st-tier powers, (and three feats). For there, it's advantageous to keep boosting PP and manifester levels, but you have your choice of where to go. Monk plus the Tashlatora feat is an excellent combo, especially since WIS is your manifester stat. I personally think Warmind is a good PRC to head for--full BAB, advances powers and PP, has a variety of boost abilities, but there might be better options in books I don't have access to.

Option 3: Grappler with Polymorph or other spells

There's a bunch of divine and arcane spells that boost strength and change your shape...

...I'll get back to you. I haven't actually made one before.

Option 4: Non-caster Grappler

Okay...this option lacks the big advantage of casters and shapeshifters: Size change plus and also a panoply of offense and defense boosts...all that can be self-applied. Nonetheless it can be done by stacking up feats and SAs. Equipment...and hopefully, boosts from teammates...will eventually begin to compensate, but you're still likely to be less dynamic.

The best method is to assemble bits and pieces that boosts grapple, attack and damage. Fighter for bonus feats, Barbarian for Rage, Monk for unarmed damage and Improved Grapple. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization can be applied to grappling. Earth's Embrace gives you a damage boost. A dip into a ToB class--Warblade or Swordsage--or Martial Study/Martial Stance grants access to the two stances that boost grappling...one's better if you're an unarmed fighter, the other if you favor a non-light weapon.

Assorted assets for Grappling

Races:

Powerful Build trait: Half-Giants (XPH), Goliaths (Races of Stone), Eneko (Secrets of Sarlona)...all are +1 LA.
Large Size: Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny), +2 LA
+4 to grapple: Chitine (FR: Underdark)...but you're Small, have +2 LA and 2 racial HD.
Expansion as natural ability: Psionic Duergar (XPH)
Enlarge Person as natural ability: Duergar (FR: Underdark)

ToB Material:

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stone Dragon 3, stance); constrict for (2d6 + 1.5x STR).
Wolverine Stance (Tiger Claw 3, stance); use any weapon in a grapple.

Spells:

Divine Power (d4); +6 Strength, scalar attack bonus.
Righteous Might (d5); +1 size, various other bonuses.

Both spells are (Personal) range, but if you can find a way to obtain their use....

Greater Enlarge Person (w5); has a duration is hours per level. Convinient.

Giant Size (wu jen 7); high level, with [Personal] range, rarely-used class...not very feasible. But 1 minute as a Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal creature is just tantalizing....

Feats:

Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple; a +4
Earth's Embrace; +1d12 damage while grappling, but others gain a +4 to attacks against you.

Equipment:

Scorpion Claw Gauntlets (Secrets of Xendrik); +2 on grapple checks to deal damage; d6 x2 slashing.
Armor Spikes; d6 x2 piercing martial weapon usable in a grapple.

Magic Items (Magic Item Compendium):

Belt of Growth (3k, waist); 1/day, 10 minutes of enlarge person.
Brawler's Gauntlets (1k, arms); 3/day, 1 round of +2 to grapple and unarmed attacks.
Gloves of the Titan's Grip (14k, hands); +8 to grapple for 7 rounds, 3/day
Spare Hand (12k, waist); +2 grapple

Vestiges:

Zagan (5th tier binding): Improved Grapple feat, treated as Large for grapples, extra (1d8 + 1.5xSTR) constrict. A bit tough to add in, but the artifact Tooth of Dalver-Na (Zagan), would grant these abilities, but most are redundant and easier to get other ways.

Things to consider beyond grappling mechanics:

- Find ways to raise your natural, insight, deflection, armor, and shield AC with spells and equipment. You lose your DEX to AC when grappling (and, iirc, that means you also lose your WIS if a Monk), so you need to compensate.
- Find ways to damage opponent's Strength score, or conspire with your party so that your grapple target is softened up with curses and ability damage.
- For that matter, try and find ways to do ability damage while grappling, particularly of CON. Poisoned weapons, critters with the Drain Blood special attack (Dire Weasel being the easiest to pull off)....
- Spells or equipment that create a damaging aura or damage-on-contact around you will boost your grapple damage.
- Speed goes well with grappling: if you can lock down an opponent such that its allies have to make a choice to break combat and assist, you're dividing their strength and helping your team. Boost your movement per round if possible.
- A great use of the former tactic is skirting the main engagement to tackle casters that linger on the periphery.