Best mechanics for a Detective?

[Person_Man]

OK, so I have about 8ish pages of fluffy and somewhat interesting homebrew stuff written out for a Detective class (basically a Batman + Sherlock Holmes mixture) that I've been working on for a while. But rather then just putting them in order of Least Powerful->Most Powerful and calling it a day, I feel that it's important to provide some choice within the class. But I can't decide the best mechanism for doing so.

I don't have enough material to create an entire ToB discipline (though I could probably stretch it and create one), and even if I had one I'm not sure what kind of recovery mechanic best fits the concept, or if it's best for the Detective to essentially be a Swordsage with a large number of investigation skills.

I could create some sort of Inspiration Point/Ki Power point system like the Factotum. But I'm not sure what kind of points a Detective would have, or why/how they would run out of them in the middle of battle.

I could just call all of the combat abilities Talents or something similar, slap on some level requirements, and structure it like the PF Rogue or PF Barbarian. But that seems like the least interesting option.

Or I could use some other Tier 3ish system anyone else could think of.

Thoughts?

[supermonkeyjoe]

You could call the skills Preparations or Mindsets or something and have a certain number of them prepared at the start of the day, possibly with a limited option to switch them out?

Without knowing what sort of thing these detective skills do it's hard to say what mechanic would fit them.

[Geigan]

To add another complicated subsystem suggestion you could do something similar to incarnum. The mindsets are each ability that you invest points in from a "genius" pool. Depending on how many points you have in each mindset determines how many abilities from a certain mindset you are able to access at a time. Again we don't have much detail on the abilities so we can't judge very well what the limits and such should be.

[Psyren]

I could create some sort of Inspiration Point/Ki Power point system like the Factotum. But I'm not sure what kind of points a Detective would have, or why/how they would run out of them in the middle of battle.

I'm going to second Geigan's suggestion of borrowing from Incarnum (and few among us are better-suited to that task than you.) You could come up with an essentia-like resource (Focus?) that isn't actually used up round by round or encounter by encounter, but is merely a finite pool that can be moved around or channeled as necessary. Your detective would then focus on various areas (like Combat, Interaction, Inspection) or even subsets of those broader categories (Hand-to-Hand, Forensics, Interrogation, Infiltration, Tracking etc.)

You would thus never have to worry about your detective "running out of detection for the day" but still give the player meaningful choices to make. A detective that is focusing on tracking an elusive target may be more susceptible to ambush, for instance.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps the Detective's in-combat powers are fueled by Clues? Basically, the Detective investigates something over a few days and accumulates Clues about that thing (which are literal clues to whatever mystery is being investigated). Then in combat they can spend Clues to do stuff, representing using the knowledge provided by that clue to come to a combat-relevant conclusion. Think of it like how Sherlock Holmes fights in the recent movies: he observes things, then uses his observations to fight.

In the short term, perhaps he gets a last-ditch effort to accumulate Clues when initiative is rolled, Knowledge Devotion-style. So he'll generally have a pool from that, plus whatever Clues he's accumulated over the last week or so.

[Geigan]

I'm going to second Geigan's suggestion of borrowing from Incarnum (and few among us are better-suited to that task than you.) You could come up with an essentia-like resource (Focus?) that isn't actually used up round by round or encounter by encounter, but is merely a finite pool that can be moved around or channeled as necessary. Your detective would then focus on various areas (like Combat, Interaction, Inspection) or even subsets of those broader categories (Hand-to-Hand, Forensics, Interrogation, Infiltration, Tracking etc.)

You would thus never have to worry about your detective "running out of detection for the day" but still give the player meaningful choices to make. A detective that is focusing on tracking an elusive target may be more susceptible to ambush, for instance.

I was thinking you could limit this one of two ways. You could go the mindset as soulmeld route, which limits the number of mindsets per day which would advance with level along with the detective's equivalent of essentia(whatever fits best fluff wise), or you could have access to all the mindsets from the beginning limit through the "essentia" pool that advances with level as well as number of times the detective can switch around his points, or you could do something completely different. The two I suggested depend on how fluid you would want it to be, but again we don't know a lot about the class' abilities so I don't think we can judge what would be appropriate for it very well. Or maybe I'm just curious and nosy? ;)

[Person_Man]

I'm going to second Geigan's suggestion of borrowing from Incarnum (and few among us are better-suited to that task than you.) You could come up with an essentia-like resource (Focus?) that isn't actually used up round by round or encounter by encounter, but is merely a finite pool that can be moved around or channeled as necessary.

It's an interesting idea. My only concern is that it would multi-class and PrC poorly, so I'd have have to tie it to Intelligence and/or come up with some Feats to address it.


Perhaps the Detective's in-combat powers are fueled by Clues?

Now that is an awesome idea. I will have to rewrite much of my stuff, but I think it's very fun concept.


Again we don't have much detail on the abilities so we can't judge very well what the limits and such should be.

Fair enough. Here's a very short version of what I have so far. I won't bother to cut and paste mechanics, since I'll probably end up reworking it to include a Focus and/or Clue driven abilities.

X to Y: This is going to be an Int/Cha based class (with a strong focus on Knowledge Skills and social Skills, especially Gather Information). So I'll be sure to layer in plenty of Int and Cha based bonuses, though exactly which bonuses and when you get them will depend on the overall flow and power level of the class.
Skills: A wide array. I haven't decided on full BAB and Ranger-ish + social Skills or 3/4 with All Skills (including Trapfinding and Iajutsu Focus and some mechanism for making enemies Flat Footed).
Bonus Feats: Track, Urban Tracking, and probably a few other fluffy or utility feats spread out throughout. I might also grant various specific Fighter-ish bonus feats, depending on the general power level of the class and how I space out the other abilities.
Scene of the Crime: Use the Survival/Track and Gather Information/Urban Tracking to much greater effect.
The Game is Afoot!: Choose a specific specific mystery, investigation, organization, or mcguffin. Gain your Int bonus as a bonus on all Skill checks (including your Scene of the Crime ability) related to that focus, and on opposed checks against enemies directly related to that focus.
Fame or Infamy: At higher levels, The Game is Afoot! bonuses now apply everywhere in a specific "turf" that you frequent (such as a city, forest, trade-route, etc, but not an entire country, continent, plane of existence) and not just for specific mysteries/investigations.
Sources: Can use a Gather Information check in place of any other Skill check that involves answering a question or getting information (such as Knowledge checks, Decipher Script, Appraise, etc).
Cunning Ploy: Gain an additional +2 bonus to-hit whenever you flank, charge, fight on higher ground, entangle, dazzle, etc an enemy. The bonuses from multiple effects stack, but you only gain the bonus for any particular condition once per encounter (to encourage the use of a variety of tactics).
Incapacitate: Deal non-lethal damage with any attack without penalty. In addition, whenever the Detective reduces an enemy to fewer then 0 hit points, he may choose to reduce them to 0 hit points and stable instead. (So that they are Staggered but still conscious – which avoids killing witnesses and suspects and making it easier to question them).
Interrogation: I haven't decided on this one yet, but there needs to be some improved way to "make" people talk. Probably some sort of Extraordinary Command or Charm ability.
Stand-off Negotiation: Improved "rushed" Diplomacy checks.
I SAID DROP IT!: Free Disarm check on a ranged or thrown weapon attack. Weapon scatters 5-10 feet away from the enemy.
Go Ahead, Make My Day: Make an Intimidate check as an Immediate Action. If you succeed, target must drop their weapons. If you succeed by 5 or more, their turn also ends.
Throw Enemy: Efficiently pick up and throw enemies, using a Grapple/Bull Rush mechanic.
Keen Senses: Haven't decided on this one yet, but given the focus on noticing stuff I'll probably try and layer in some options for Darkvision, Scent, See Invisibility, Find the Path, True Seeing, etc.
Swift Tracker: Faster use of Survival/Track and Gather Information/Urban Tracking.
Total Recall: Some sort of expanded Bardic Knowledge ability and/or the ability to ask the DM to repeat anything that you have previously heard, or show you anything that you have previously seen or read (such as a map, a document, etc).
Ominous Presence: Against enemies with 5 or fewer hit dice then you, the Detective never provokes attacks of opportunity, and those enemies may not take Immediate Actions and may not take 5 ft steps.
Dispatch Henchmen: If you hit and damage an enemy with 5 fewer hit die then you, then they must make a Fortitude Save or be knocked unconscious or reduced to 0 hit points and Staggered (your option).
Always Prepared: Free Handy Haversack + Quickdraw, with the addition that you may also draw any item (not just weapons) in your possession as a free action that does not provoke an AoO, including items held in extradimensional spaces. In addition, the Detective may draw any item worth X gold pieces or less that could have fit inside the space. The cost of the item is simply deducted from his existing gp. (It is assumed that the Detective deduced this eventuality, and purchased what he needed ahead of time).
Cuff’em: Can use manacles as a club and/or flair. Your manacles are harder to escape, and some sort of approximation of an efficient Justicar Grapple/Use Rope ability.
You Have the Right to Remain Silent: Manacles that you put on an enemy impose non-magical Silence on them. At higher levels it also imposes Dimensional Shackles, or at very high levels an Anti-Magic Field.
Foil : Ability to end any single ongoing effect of your enemy (basically a forced Iron Heart Surge, written specifically enough so that it's not crazy).


Additional thoughts and/or Detective/Batman/Sherlock Holmes clichés I need to include?

[Thurbane]

For interrogation, could it simulate (possibly a superior version) the Trap of Words usage of the Master Manipulator (PHB2) feat? Or maybe just as a bonus feat.

Anyhow, sounds like a great idea for a class. :smallsmile:

[Geigan]

Was the focus on int or charisma? Or could it perhaps be a choice that the player makes? Either have some abilities keying off one attribute or another or perhaps just have the player choose one when they first take the class? How MAD were you thinking the class should be?

As for the mindset idea you could scale it off of character level based on the main ability mod but perhaps limit access to certain abilities based on detective level. Give it flexibility while still giving incentive to stay in the class and all that.

I will dive into TVTropes tomorrow to see if there are any tropes to add for the lulz. See you some time next year.:smallbiggrin:

[DreadWarlock]

is there any build in your mind? can you write some of your fluff here

[Heatwizard]

I am thinking give 'im a small repertoire of special moves to use; stuff that's not amazing, but potentially a decent alternative to just swinging. Then let 'im spend Clues to 'lock on' to an enemy, in a sense, and make all his special moves much more potent against locked-on enemies. Once per round as a swift action you can roll Gather Information to gain another Clue. As long as you keep making the GI checks, you can perpetually fight at full power, but even if you don't you can still fight like a detective. You'll just be rushed and a little sloppy.

[FMArthur]

Why not have something like a Knowledge Devotion/Inspire Courage hybrid ability? As you acquire more information about a particular target, by fighting them, stalking them or finding clues of their passing, you learn more and more about their weaknesses and pass this information on to your associates to more effectively combat them.

Maybe with more versatile effects than KD, like you can choose to have the bonus be to attack rolls, a saving throw or skill/ability checks against your targets. And choose more than one of those simultaneously after a certain point. After the initial check, the bonus increases the longer you fight them, as sort of an ongoing revelation process (like the kind you see in movie heroes who win against villains that have obviously superior fighting skills).

[Waker]

I see many of the classes skills working well with a DC = Target HD + relevant stats. You might also wanna check out the Watch Detective from Masters of the Wild or Master Inquisitive from Eberron.

Scene of the Crime: Use the Survival/Track and Gather Information/Urban Tracking to much greater effect.
The Profiling ability from the Watch Detective is nice, since it can give you more details about the criminal including exactly what they look like.
You could also allow a high level use of the ability to duplicate Legend Lore.

Interrogation: I haven't decided on this one yet, but there needs to be some improved way to "make" people talk. Probably some sort of Extraordinary Command or Charm ability.
Getting Into Their Head (Ex): Make a special Sense Motive check equal to DC= HD + Cha (or Bluff if they have ranks). If you succeed, you duplicate the effects of Detect Thoughts.
Pieces of the Puzzle (Ex): Sense Motive check. If you succeed you can glean some seemingly useless information that hints at the plans enemies. The effect duplicates Commune (Or something else.)

Keen Senses: Haven't decided on this one yet, but given the focus on noticing stuff I'll probably try and layer in some options for Darkvision, Scent, See Invisibility, Find the Path, True Seeing, etc.
Perhaps something to add to initiative and ignore cover/concealment as well.

Total Recall: Some sort of expanded Bardic Knowledge ability and/or the ability to ask the DM to repeat anything that you have previously heard, or show you anything that you have previously seen or read (such as a map, a document, etc).
That one is gonna require the DM keep their notes on them at all times.

Ominous Presence: Against enemies with 5 or fewer hit dice then you, the Detective never provokes attacks of opportunity, and those enemies may not take Immediate Actions and may not take 5 ft steps.
Dispatch Henchmen: If you hit and damage an enemy with 5 fewer hit die then you, then they must make a Fortitude Save or be knocked unconscious or reduced to 0 hit points and Staggered (your option).
This one is gold, its not insanely powerful but it is definitely one of the favorite abilities that I've seen.

[Person_Man]

OK, so I've decided I'm going to give the Detective two sets of abilities.

One set will be the driven by a Clue Point system. You gather Clue Points by roleplaying , various "investigation" abilities, and when you roll Initiative via a Deduction check (probably a Knowledge and/or Spot check of some kind). You can then spend Clue Points to fuel various class abilities. A second set will be all of the various "always on" abilities which have no bearing on your investigations, so that you don't completely suck when you run out of Clues.

Question: Does anyone have a good name for "using clues and deduction and/or noticing your enemies weaknesses and using it against them." Wizards use spells, Psions use Powers, Swordsages use Maneuvers. What do Detectives use?

[Curious]

Question: Does anyone have a good name for "using clues and deduction and/or noticing your enemies weaknesses and using it against them." Wizards use spells, Psions use Powers, Swordsages use Maneuvers. What do Detectives use?

Ingenuity.

[Greenish]

Detectives could use Insights, or Savvies if you want less formal. Acumen, maybe.

[Urpriest]

I like Deductions, especially if powered by Clues.

[Madcrafter]

Deductions seems a little cumbersome (and has a slight negative connotation) for such a system. If it were a class feature only usable /day or something I think it might fit better. Insights works well though. My 2c.

The class seems like a Factotum/Ranger combo with all the class features refluffed with Archivist. I like it.