Judging the worth of X in Core

[Ceaon]

Hello playground!
This thread aims to rate everything in core. Feel free to PEACH these lists.
I had a few assumptions when I made these lists: available sources are PH+DMG+MM. If something becomes much more valuable when other sources are allowed, I make a note of that.

So, without further ado, here come my rated lists of everything in core (WIP of course)!

Races
Races are listed from best to worst.

Strong
Good in most builds, powerful abilities, tailored for powerful classes
Human
Dwarf

Okay
Good in some builds, bad in others
Gnome
Halfling

Weak
Penalizes most builds, while being a good choice in very few
Elf
Half-orc
Half-elf

Classes
Classes are listed from best to worst.

Strong
Versatile and powerful, fully playable from level 1-20
Wizard
Druid
Cleric
Sorcerer

Okay
Versatile or powerful, playable but begins to suffer in the mid-levels
Barbarian
Rogue
Bard

Weak
Neither versatile nor powerful, most powerful as a (2 level-) dip
Ranger
Fighter
Paladin
Monk

Prestige Classes
Prestige classes are ranked only by category, not listed from best to worst.

Strong
Improves the entry class(es) and does not require many weak build choices to enter
Archmage
Assassin
Loremaster
Red Wizard

Okay
Is about on par with entry class or weak build choices required to enter
Arcane Trickster
Blackguard
Eldritch Knight
Horizon Walker
Thaumaturgist

Weak
Entering it is worse than progressing (one of the) entry class(es) or requires awful build choices
Arcane Archer
Dragon Disciple
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Hierophant
Mystic Theurge
Shadowdancer

[Ceaon]

Skills

Strong
Skill is versatile, powerful, needed often and/or hard to replace with spells
Bluff
Concentration
Diplomacy
Hide
Knowledge (arcana)
Knowledge (religion)
Listen
Move Silently
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Spot
Tumble (for the first few ranks, after that, it becomes Weak)
Use Magic Device

Okay
The skill is situational, not that effective, or not that necessary due to a spell, but has some uses
Balance (for the first few ranks, after that, it becomes Weak)
Disable Device
Gather Information
Intimidate
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (the planes)
Open Lock
Perform
Ride
Search
Sleight of Hand
Survival

Weak
The skill is very situational, pure fluff or completely unnecessary due to a low-level spell
Appraise
Craft
Climb
Decipher Script
Escape Artist
Forgery
Handle Animal
Heal
Jump
Knowledge (architecture and engineering)
Knowledge (dungoneering)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
Profession
Speak Language
Use Rope

Feats

Strong
This feat improves or creates valuable options for a character
Augment Summoning
Combat Reflexes
Extend Spell
Improved Initiative
Improved Trip
Leadership
Natural Spell
Power Attack
Quicken Spell
Rapid Shot
Spirited Charge
Stunning Fist

Okay
This feat somewhat improves or creates okay options, or increases numeric values that matter somewhat
Blind-Fight
Brew Potion
Cleave
Combat Expertise
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Rod
Craft Staff
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Items
Diehard
Empower Spell
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (note: mostly because of Spiked Chain)
Forge Ring
Great Fortitude
Heighten Spell
Improved Critical
Improved Disarm
Improved Familiar
Improved Feint
Improved Grapple
Improved Shield Bash
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Manyshot
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Ride-by Attack
Scribe Scroll
Shot on the Run
Silent Spell
Spring Attack
Spell Focus
Spell Focus, Greater
Spell Mastery
Spell Penetration
Spell Penetration, Greater
Still Spell
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved
Weapon Finesse

Weak
This feat is mostly fluff, increases unimportant numeric values or improves or creates outright useless options
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (light)
Armor Proficiency (medium
Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Athletic
Combat Casting
Deceitful
Deflect Arrows
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
Mobility
Endurance
Enlarge Spell
Eschew Materials
Extra Turning (note: becomes Strong when DMM is available)
Far Shot
Great Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Counterspell
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Improved Turning
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Precise Shot
Investigator
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Maximize Spell
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Run
Self-sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency (note: unless you're a monk wanting proficiency with unarmed strikes)
Skill Focus
Snatch Arrows
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Trample
Two-Weapon Defense
Weapon Focus
Weapon Focus, Greater
Weapon Specialization
Weapon Specialization, Greater
Whirlwind Attack
Widen Spell

[Ceaon]

Spell Schools

Strong
Spells from this school are generally versatile and can end encounters
Abjuration
Conjuration
Transmutation

Okay
Spells from this school are generally influential but not the best for its level
Divination
Illusion
Universal (note: not a real school)

Weak
Spells from this school generally achieve sub-par effects or are easy to defend against
Enchantment
Evocation
Necromancy

Individual Spells
WIP

Magic items
WIP

[Flickerdart]

Ranger and Blackguard should not be in the categories they are, at all. Ranger is terrible in core, blackguard is terrible pretty much always. Neither are Archmage, Horizon Walker and Red Wizard correctly ranked - Horizon Walker is the best melee PrC in core bare none, Red Wizard is obscenely powerful and Archmage is a common cap to many caster builds.

[Gavinfoxx]

You will want to consider the MM races as well (Orc, Jungle Gnome, Grey Elf, etc.) And isn't Archmage considered strong in core?

Also remember in core that a Horizon Tripper is Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Horizon Walker...

[Ceaon]

Ranger and Blackguard should not be in the categories they are, at all. Ranger is terrible in core, blackguard is terrible pretty much always. Neither are Archmage, Horizon Walker and Red Wizard correctly ranked - Horizon Walker is the best melee PrC in core bare none, Red Wizard is obscenely powerful and Archmage is a common cap to many caster builds.

Ranger has some skill points and okay-ish class abilities, but I was switching between Okay and Weak with it as well.
Blackguard is bad, but is it worse than its possible entry classes? I should move it to Okay at least, though, I agree.
Archmage and Red Wizard are powerful, no doubt, but are they that much better than sorcerer or wizard? I think they are powerful because of their base classes. Archmage especially; it doesn't offer THAT much.
And Horizon Walker is indeed the best melee PrC in core. But is doesn't give anything notably better than 10 levels in a base class, does it?

[Flickerdart]

Ranger has some skill points and okay-ish class abilities, but I was switching between Okay and Weak with it as well.
Its class abilities are all terrible (TWF and archery without bonus damage are pointless). Its skills aren't the ones that are good.

Blackguard is bad, but is it worse than its possible entry classes? I should move it to Okay at least, though, I agree.
You have to take Improved Sunder (ew) and have ranks in Hide (ew), and then never use them again. Your abilities are too few per day, and not that great themselves. Blackguard's only use is a 3 level dip for a Hexblade build, which doesn't exist in Core. You are almost always better off with your base class.


Archmage and Red Wizard are powerful, no doubt, but are they that much better than sorcerer or wizard? I think they are powerful because of their base classes. Archmage especially; it doesn't offer THAT much.
Sorcerer and Wizard, if you would care to look, have no class features at all. Any PrC that progresses full casting and also gives other stuff is better - using touch spells without having to expose your squishy body to attacks is great, for instance, and Circle Magic is downright insane. The mind boggles at how this is not obvious.

And Horizon Walker is indeed the best melee PrC in core. But is doesn't give anything notably better than 10 levels in a base class, does it?
Dimension door every 1d4 rounds and Tremorsense are better than 7 levels in any core base class for a melee character. Immunity to Fatigue is huge for Barbarians, too.

[Zeta Kai]

Archmage and Red Wizard are powerful, no doubt, but are they that much better than sorcerer or wizard? I think they are powerful because of their base classes. Archmage especially; it doesn't offer THAT much.

But the requirements for Archmage are very easy for any mage to attain, & they lose nothing by taking levels in it. It's all win, all the time. There's no real trade-off to speak of.

Also, Open Lock is a valuable skill. Yes, it can technically be replaced by a casting of knock, but that's a sub-optimal choice at most levels. Does the party spend a 2nd-level spell, or do they save it & just have the rogue do his job for free? I've never seen a party choose the former when the latter is available; it just doesn't happen at the table. That's Batman-Wizard thinking.

Lastly, Horizon Walker is awesome, but the Knowledge (geography) requirement is a pain to qualify for. It's gonna be a cross-class skill for just about anybody who would benefit the most from taking it. Who has Knowledge (geography) as a class skill in core? Bards, Rangers, & Wizards. Only to the Ranger would the trade-off possibly be worth it, & that's still not a sure thing. For everyone else, entry is denied until 13 level or later. Stupid class skill system is stupid.

[Tyndmyr]

First off, for general listings, these already exist. Race listings exist...and the class specific ones are better/more accurate. Class/PrC tier lists exist. Just use those.

Secondly, value is not finite. Yes, I would choose straight barb over straight fighter if I had to pick...but a combination of the two is better than either alone. Several classes are front-loaded.

[Telonius]

Lastly, Horizon Walker is awesome, but the Knowledge (geography) requirement is a pain to qualify for. It's gonna be a cross-class skill for just about anybody who would benefit the most from taking it. Who has Knowledge (geography) as a class skill in core? Bards, Rangers, & Wizards. Only to the Ranger would the trade-off possibly be worth it, & that's still not a sure thing. For everyone else, entry is denied until 13 level or later. Stupid class skill system is stupid.

... you know, just when I thought I'd plumbed the depths of the skill system's absurdities, another one crops up. How does Druid not have Knowledge (Geography) on his class list? The dude who's supposed to be an expert on all natural things has no special aptitude for "lands, terrain, climate, people." (Okay, "people" I can buy. But still!)

[Greenish]

I've seen it argued in core only, Dragon Discipline isn't that bad. Of course, given core melee classes to which to compare…

Shadowdancer 10 isn't very good, but 1-2 levels is a nifty dip.

[Glimbur]

I've seen it argued in core only, Dragon Discipline isn't that bad. Of course, given core melee classes to which to compare…


I'm assuming you mean Barbarian X/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10. That's honestly legit, it costs you some BAB but you don't get the power attack multipliers besides two-handing and you do get Str. Also natural armor, and wings! Feasible.

[Tyndmyr]

I've seen it argued in core only, Dragon Discipline isn't that bad. Of course, given core melee classes to which to compare…

Shadowdancer 10 isn't very good, but 1-2 levels is a nifty dip.

It's not actually that bad in core only...but it's not that good compared to just taking the half dragon template.

Consider...you end up with a few less hit die, but if you take the seven levels that otherwise would be wasted on DD as, say, barbarian or another full bab class...you end up the same BaB, and you get actual class features. Rage, greater rage, or mighty rage will result in getting enough in-combat hp to compensate for the lack of hp. DD has a mere 2+int skills, so the barbarian pulls ahead in skill points...and the other class features are all win.

Really, I just never end up taking it instead of just grabbing the HD template and more levels of some base class.

[Ceaon]

Ranger was moved from Okay to Weak.
Blackguard was moved from Good to Okay. I still think it is not weak; it gives some class features that can not be easily gained in core.
Archmage and Red Wizard were moved from Okay to Good.
Open Lock was moved from Weak to Okay.

And I know there are tier lists and what-not. First, that's not core-only. Secondly, because these lists are smaller, we could feasibly rank some of them from best to worst. Thirdly, this topic ranks not only classes and races, but also feats and skills.

Anyway, keep those comments coming! I'm sure my lists are flawed still!

[killem2]

This is a really neat breakdown, thanks for doing it! I might try it out some time if my party we have dies. (Hopefully no time soon haha)

[Big Fau]

Also, Open Lock is a valuable skill. Yes, it can technically be replaced by a casting of knock, but that's a sub-optimal choice at most levels. Does the party spend a 2nd-level spell, or do they save it & just have the rogue do his job for free? I've never seen a party choose the former when the latter is available; it just doesn't happen at the table. That's Batman-Wizard thinking.

No, no it's not. An Average Lock has a DC of 25, and it only goes up from there (to DC 40 at Amazing, which is dirt-cheap after 3rd level). Disable Device is more reliably able to bypass a mundane lock at any given level, something Open Lock takes extensive optimization to do.

[Eldariel]

If it's Core, you should certainly include Monster Manual races too. Worthy of note are definitely Gray Elf (only Int-boosting LA +0 race) and Goblin (only Small race with 30' move speed and Darkvision). Wood Elf also has some niché uses in TWF/Archery builds though those are pretty bad in Core to start with. Wild Elf is a significantly better Elf generally, Deep Dwarves are an interesting take on Dwarves, and Gold Dwarf [DMG Pg. 171] can occasionally be advantageous for Cleric/Paladin wishing to avoid the Charisma-penalty. Also, Orc is the gold standard for melee classes, in spite of light sensitivity.

Then there's a whole bunch of minor changes; Deep Halflings are a very viable alternative to Halflings trading few less relevant pieces of the puzzle for another set (most importantly for the Roguish Halflings, Darkvision) & Tallfellows do an even more minor, but still convenient trade. Forest Gnomes are much the same.


Thaumaturgist is definitely Strong in my books; standard entry class is Cleric with no class features so you effectively give up BAB that you can just Divine Power for in exchange for contingent summon, summon-boosting powers and all that good stuff.

Assassin is "Okay" in my books; Rogue-PRC that only gets 4+Int skills and no Skill Masteries among others. It's not a downgrade by any means; it gets a world of useful spells that a Rogue will be UMDing. But still, that's a significant reduction in the base capabilities of the class.

Finally, Dragon Disciple is definitely "Okay" in Core; the natural entry classes are so worthless that any numbers tend to lead to better result than single-classing and it at least has good Will-saves, gets better damage than normal and gets various hard-to-replicate-for-noncasters things like Blindsense and Wings. As long as you avoid Dragon Apotheosis (and becoming ineligible for Enlarge Person, one of the stronger core buffs) it's an average-to-strong class on melees (and worthless on casters but since it's a 100% melee class, whatever).

[Draz74]

Goblin (only Small race with 30' move speed and Darkvision).

Kobold says hi. :smallwink:

[navar100]

Combat Casting is not a weak feat. It's not for all spellcasters, but it is good for clerics and natural spell druids who both tend to be in melee when they want to cast spells. It's a tactical choice feat combo with Skill Focus (Concentration). Maxing Concentration and 14 CON, starting at level 4 you auto-succeed on defensive casting for your highest level spell on a natural 1. This can matter a great deal when you don't want to 5ft step away. You may be wanting to cast a touch spell to buff yourself or party member or as an attack against the bad guy. A human can take both at 1st level to get it out of the way to concentrate on other stuff for later feats.

[Eldariel]

Kobold says hi. :smallwink:

Meh, they don't count with Slight Build :smalltongue:yeahIknow

[Flickerdart]

I'd argue that Far Shot belongs in the Okay category - while not important for archers, when you're throwing daggers, it turns your range from "might as well be in melee" to "standing behind the front line and making faces".

[Big Fau]

Combat Casting is not a weak feat. It's not for all spellcasters, but it is good for clerics and natural spell druids who both tend to be in melee when they want to cast spells. It's a tactical choice feat combo with Skill Focus (Concentration). Maxing Concentration and 14 CON, starting at level 4 you auto-succeed on defensive casting for your highest level spell on a natural 1. This can matter a great deal when you don't want to 5ft step away. You may be wanting to cast a touch spell to buff yourself or party member or as an attack against the bad guy. A human can take both at 1st level to get it out of the way to concentrate on other stuff for later feats.

Outside of that combo, who would use it over Skill Focus?

[deuxhero]

In core where it isn't needed for qualifications? Not sure.

[Godskook]

Archmage and Red Wizard are powerful, no doubt, but are they that much better than sorcerer or wizard? I think they are powerful because of their base classes. Archmage especially; it doesn't offer THAT much.

Archmage would qualify for top billing in your ranking system in *SPLAT*, and its competition is much stiffer there. In core, if you aren't making your wizard an Archmage, you just might be doing it wrong. I mean, here's what it offers:

-Reach with touch spells
-Bonus CL(Rare in core!)
-Bonus 'spell slots' of your highest levels
-Easy elemental switching(best version available in splat)
-Spell turning as part of counterspelling
-Shape spell, but spontaneous

That's 6 abilities, most of which can be taken multiple times. While some of them are highly situational(#4), worst case scenario, you've sacrificed 10 spell slots(5 9ths and 5 5ths) for 5 SLAs usable 2/day, or in other words, your favorite spells can't be taken from you, and are automatically stilled, silent, and eschewed.

[Eldariel]

Archmage would qualify for top billing in your ranking system in *SPLAT*, and its competition is much stiffer there. In core, if you aren't making your wizard an Archmage, you just might be doing it wrong. I mean, here's what it offers:

-Reach with touch spells
-Bonus CL(Rare in core!)
-Bonus 'spell slots' of your highest levels
-Easy elemental switching(best version available in splat)
-Spell turning as part of counterspelling
-Shape spell, but spontaneous

That's 6 abilities, most of which can be taken multiple times. While some of them are highly situational(#4), worst case scenario, you've sacrificed 10 spell slots(5 9ths and 5 5ths) for 5 SLAs usable 2/day, or in other words, your favorite spells can't be taken from you, and are automatically stilled, silent, and eschewed.

Red Wizard is by far the more absurd of the two though. Even with the whole 3.5 at your disposal, it'll be on the side of "broken good". Circle Magic, massive caster level bonuses, it gives you stupid amounts of good stuff and can be entered on level 6 to boot.

Strongest Core build is Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4, I'm fairly sure. Clerics and Druids do not come close when we bring the absurdity that is Red Wizard into play. And that one level of Loremaster enables 23 ranks in Use Magic Device, which should outweigh the weakest ability from Archmage.

[hex0]

It's not actually that bad in core only...but it's not that good compared to just taking the half dragon template.


Depends on which version of core you are talking about, to an extent. If it is SRD only core, then you probably have access to LA buyoff.

In core core:

Half Dragon 4/Barbarian 16 has 16 BAB

Bard 5/Barbarian 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian 4 has only 15 BAB (boo).

SRD core give you Human Paragon to get Knowledge Arcana as a class skill though, to make it less suck:

Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Barbarian 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian 5 has 17 BAB

Which core are you talking about again?

Edit: Reread first post. :smallredface: Still a lot of people consider Core as being SRD...

[sonofzeal]

"Deflect Arrows" should be moved up at least to "okay". It requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which is bad, but is a decisive advantage against archers at low/mid level, and still a significant one beyond that. If you're playing in a campaign with humanoid enemies, chances are this'll come up from time to time, and is often an encounter-winner when it does. One of my favorite Core Fighter NPC builds is IUS->Deflect.Arrows, Improved Grapple, and then archery feats. Stand on something big and shoot them from afar, using Deflect Arrows to dominate an archery duel, and if they get up to you, grapple them off the thing you're standing on. Loses vs magic, but eh, everything does.

Note that Deflect Arrows also works against thrown weapons, which are a much more effective combat style than straight archery.



"Dwarven Defender" is also generally underrated. I mean, it sucks... if you take a longsword and tower shield, then use Defensive Stance every fight and cry as enemies run around you. But a polearm and Improved Trip, with the Strength boost from Defensive Stance, isn't a bad combo at all. Heck, a Dwarven Defender who never uses Defensive Stance probably justifies itself over straight Fighter, if those were your two options. And in Core, it's that or multiclass.

The entry requirements are complete bollox, but eh. By the standards of Core, I'd still call it "Moderate". Ftr10/DDef10 is entirely compeditive with Ftr20 in most games, if played with even modicum of sense.

[Eldariel]

Bard 5/Barbarian 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian 4 has only 15 BAB (boo).

Why make such absurd build decisions that lose two excess points of BAB for absolutely zero gain? Bard 5 is an absolutely pointless level. Dragon Disciple 10 is a terrible level which makes 9 questionable too.

And that raises the question of if you wouldn't rather have more Barbarian to have enough Rage to actually use it and reach Greater Rage over those extra Dragon Disciple levels.


Dragon Disciple has 3 relevant breakpoints:
Level 4: Lose 1 BAB, get significant strength bonuses, natural weapons & 2 points of Natural Armor. This is exceedingly straight-forward, and a very efficient trade; you lose a second BAB for entry prerequisites but you still break even To Hit-wise, and net an extra attack, 3 points of extra damage and 2 NA.
Level 7-8: Lose a 2nd BAB. Gain Blindsense, Constitution, Natural Armor & potential Int. Pretty simple; loses slightly on straight offense but gains a bunch of utility.
Level 9: 1 point of BAB for Wings. Simple enough.

Level 10 means you don't qualify for Humanoid-only buffs anymore and as such is subpar unless you're using Polymorph in which case you should be looking for substantially larger amounts of casting in your builds.

[Godskook]

Red Wizard is by far the more absurd of the two though. Even with the whole 3.5 at your disposal, it'll be on the side of "broken good". Circle Magic, massive caster level bonuses, it gives you stupid amounts of good stuff and can be entered on level 6 to boot.

Wasn't comparing them, was merely extolling archmage. By comparison, Red Wizard is better, but Red Wizard is so good its bannable while Archmage threads a wonderful needle of practicality, cost, and relevance.

[TheMeMan]

... you know, just when I thought I'd plumbed the depths of the skill system's absurdities, another one crops up. How does Druid not have Knowledge (Geography) on his class list? The dude who's supposed to be an expert on all natural things has no special aptitude for "lands, terrain, climate, people." (Okay, "people" I can buy. But still!)

Actually, one could rather easily argue the point that Druids are not apt in Geography. Geography entails a rather extensive knowledge not merely of what something is, but it's interaction within a greater system. Sounds Druidy, but bare with me for a moment. Druids tend to have extensive knowledge-of a very localized environment. They know the ins and outs of what is present within their own neck of the woods.

However, Geography entails far more than that. You're not just looking at a river and saying "That's a river". It's looking at a river, and figuring out how the river will bend and turn (And why it does this), the tributaries both up and downstream that are going to be feeding into it, the watershed that the river lies within, considering the order of the stream(Is it a first or second order? What about third?), the relationship of the plant life within the river valley and how it may affect erosion(And if erosion occurs, what will this lead to further downstream as far as deposition), and many other factors that would be quite foreign to someone who has extensive knowledge of localized environments. Rather, it requires someone who travels-a lot. Or reads a great deal. The knowledge for the interplay of various effects can only be gained through extensive experience with a wide variety of circumstances, something that a Druid generally will not have.

At least that's my take.

I'd also like to inquire about Skill Focus being a weak feat. I would argue for "Okay", as it does prove useful, albeit limited. It's not good for many builds in Core, but to some it can be quite potent. It just doesn't seem to fit the bill of your definition of "weak". It's situational, really (At least from what I've seen).

[Tytalus]

The value of such a list would be immensely increased if you provided a reasoning for where you place the individual Xs. It also facilitates discussing if a placement is correct or not.

E.g., human: the extra feat is huge, the extra skill points nice, while the favored class makes them flexible in multiclass builds.

[Ceaon]

The value of such a list would be immensely increased if you provided a reasoning for where you place the individual Xs. It also facilitates discussing if a placement is correct or not.

E.g., human: the extra feat is huge, the extra skill points nice, while the favored class makes them flexible in multiclass builds.

It would, but that's also a lot more work. But I like your idea, I will try to get around doing this.

[Tyndmyr]

Finally, Dragon Disciple is definitely "Okay" in Core; the natural entry classes are so worthless that any numbers tend to lead to better result than single-classing and it at least has good Will-saves, gets better damage than normal and gets various hard-to-replicate-for-noncasters things like Blindsense and Wings. As long as you avoid Dragon Apotheosis (and becoming ineligible for Enlarge Person, one of the stronger core buffs) it's an average-to-strong class on melees (and worthless on casters but since it's a 100% melee class, whatever).

I've already demonstrated that HD template and straight barb outperforms DD. And I didn't even have to include the hit for the necessary sorc/etc level to show that.

Archmage, on the other hand, is quite good. Both that and Loremaster are a solid gain over pure casters.


Depends on which version of core you are talking about, to an extent. If it is SRD only core, then you probably have access to LA buyoff.

In core core:

Half Dragon 4/Barbarian 16 has 16 BAB

Bard 5/Barbarian 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian 4 has only 15 BAB (boo).

SRD core give you Human Paragon to get Knowledge Arcana as a class skill though, to make it less suck:

Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Barbarian 3/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian 5 has 17 BAB

Which core are you talking about again?

Edit: Reread first post. :smallredface: Still a lot of people consider Core as being SRD...

Nah, LA buyoff is non-core. SRD includes core, but other things as well. The terms are not interchangeable.

That said, your first build is wrong, Half dragon is only LA 3. So, 17 BaB. You're not going to do better taking dragon disciple(going to lose at least 3 bab in the class itself, even if you qual via noncore. 4 inside of core.), and BaB is important. Having seven levels less of barb means less rage power...better con boost compensates for the lost hd directly. The rest is all win.

[Zeta Kai]

No, no it's not. An Average Lock has a DC of 25, and it only goes up from there (to DC 40 at Amazing, which is dirt-cheap after 3rd level). Disable Device is more reliably able to bypass a mundane lock at any given level, something Open Lock takes extensive optimization to do.

Any rogue worthy of the name can crack an Average Lock (DC25) in two minutes flat. At 1st level. Masterwork tools (+2), Taking 20 (20, obviously), Dexterity bonus (+4, give or take +1) equals a check of 26 or so, before even putting ranks into the skill (which of course you need to do, since it is Trained Only). Easy-peasy. If your rogue can't do that, fire them & find somebody competent at their job. They don't even need a Skill Focus bonus for that. A Good Lock (DC30) can be cracked at 2nd level with the same approach, assuming max ranks in Open Lock (+5 at that point).

That Amazing Lock (DC = the DM doesn't want you here, but is playing by the rules) can be cracked at about 6th level if you allow for a Skill Focus (Open Lock) feat, which is hardly "extensive optimization" to essentially bypass the DM's will. Face it, that skill can do a lot, & a decent rogue can use it well without even trying hard.

Meanwhile, the wizard wouldn't get knock until 3rd level at least, & out of the 50 2nd-level spells available in core alone, a player is highly unlikely to even have it in their spellbook, let along have it prepared. In fact, I'd say that if your party is relying on the Wizard to have it prepared, when they have a rogue with them, then that's a sign of a rather dysfunctional party. The wizard should be focusing on what their good at, & have glitterdust. Or fog cloud. Or web. Or touch of idiocy. Or invisibility. Or alter self. Or rope trick. Or spider climb. Or... well, the list of demonstrably-better choices is large. The idea that an actual player would have such a sub-optimal option when a free alternative is available is Batman-Wizard thinking, & flawed at that.

Oh, & you're using Disable Device to open locks? Wow. You're DM is being really nice to you. Give them a hug, because that's not what that skill is for. At all. That's the trap skill, buddy. They're not supposed to be interchangeable, & even if they were, the DC on a Disable Device check should be higher, especially on a lock. Just wow.

[sonofzeal]

Oh, & you're using Disable Device to open locks? Wow. You're DM is being really nice to you. Give them a hug, because that's not what that skill is for. At all. That's the trap skill, buddy. They're not supposed to be interchangeable, & even if they were, the DC on a Disable Device check should be higher, especially on a lock. Just wow.
I believe the common approach is to Disable Device on the hinges and bypass the lock entirely.

[Big Fau]

Show me where I said the word "Wizard" in my post. Please. I seem to be missing it every time I read it. I'll wait.

My point was that Disable Device's DC doesn't require you to take 20 to open the lock. Hell, if need be I'd tell the player to buy a wand of Knock ASAP if the Open Lock skill came up enough to warrant me putting skill points into it. Or buy an Adamantine weapon for the party's tank, which should suffice for most locks (barring stealth-oriented missions where the wand would be more useful anyway).

I believe the Open Lock skill is highly overrated when another skill on the Rogue's class list (and one of the Rogue's defining skills) can do the job in a more timely manner.

Edit: Also:


Simple|1 round|10|Jam a lock

If that is all it takes to jam the lock, one can extrapolate from this that it is likewise trivial to disassemble the lock, rendering it useless for it's primary function.

[Ksheep]

Show me where I said the word "Wizard" in my post. Please. I seem to be missing it every time I read it. I'll wait.

My point was that Disable Device's DC doesn't require you to take 20 to open the lock. Hell, if need be I'd tell the player to buy a wand of Knock ASAP if the Open Lock skill came up enough to warrant me putting skill points into it. Or buy an Adamantine weapon for the party's tank, which should suffice for most locks (barring stealth-oriented missions where the wand would be more useful anyway).

I believe the Open Lock skill is highly overrated when another skill on the Rogue's class list (and one of the Rogue's defining skills) can do the job in a more timely manner.

Edit: Also:



If that is all it takes to jam the lock, one can extrapolate from this that it is likewise trivial to disassemble the lock, rendering it useless for it's primary function.

You are, of course, assuming that one can access the lock assembly from the side of the door you are on. If you look at any modern lock, it's fairly easy to disassemble it… if you're on the right side (typically the inside). Likewise, hinges are typically set such that they either cannot be accessed from the outside (or whichever side you are expecting would-be thieves), or if they are, they are made so that one cannot easily pop the pins out. One would assume the same is true for a D&D world.

EDIT: As for the "DC 10 to jam a lock", it's fairly easy to jam a door closed. A common way I've seen requires nothing more than wedging a few pennies in the doorframe. Alternatively, if you are simply trying to jam a lock in whichever position it's currently in, assuming that they are the traditional Warded lock with a keyhole on both sides of the door (very common until the invention of the modern tumbler lock), all one would have to do is stuff something into the keyhole, as both sides use the same locking mechanism. It's rather common with those style locks to simply leave the key in the lock if you don't want anyone unlocking it from the outside, so it stands to reason that jamming something else in there would also render the lock unusable until they are able to clear the obstruction.

[Eldariel]

I've already demonstrated that HD template and straight barb outperforms DD. And I didn't even have to include the hit for the necessary sorc/etc level to show that.

Irrelevant. DD outperforms straight Barbarian or Fighter. That's all that matters. Besides, losing Hit Dice has annoying consequences beyond just losing class levels that can have a very negative impact on your character's survivability.

[Tyndmyr]

Irrelevant. DD outperforms straight Barbarian or Fighter. That's all that matters. Besides, losing Hit Dice has annoying consequences beyond just losing class levels that can have a very negative impact on your character's survivability.

A superior, simpler core only build with very similar effects cannot really be considered irrelevant.

Loosing HD can matter, but it's fairly trivial. Giving up seven levels of class abilities for three HD alone is relatively minor.

[Big Fau]

You are, of course, assuming that one can access the lock assembly from the side of the door you are on. If you look at any modern lock, it's fairly easy to disassemble it… if you're on the right side (typically the inside). Likewise, hinges are typically set such that they either cannot be accessed from the outside (or whichever side you are expecting would-be thieves), or if they are, they are made so that one cannot easily pop the pins out. One would assume the same is true for a D&D world.

Well, obviously. However, Open Lock has to follow identical restrictions with regards to what side of the door the lock is on. You cannot interact with an object if you don't have LoE to it, after all. So in any door-related situation where you couldn't use Open Lock you likely won't be able to apply Disable Device.


The inverse should also be true: If you can use Open Lock on a door, you can use Disable Device in it's place.

[Eldariel]

A superior, simpler core only build with very similar effects cannot really be considered irrelevant.

Yes it can. It is not the baseline we're comparing to, thus making it irrelevant. The only logical baseline is a single-classed character of the same type. Half-Dragon also has the unfortunate side-effect of being Dragon-typed (which removes one of the better low-level buffs, Enlarge Person) and unplayable in games starting on 3rd level.


Loosing HD can matter, but it's fairly trivial. Giving up seven levels of class abilities for three HD alone is relatively minor.

Eh, that depends. HD comes up with some extremely powerful effects. Blasphemy-line directly interacts with your HD. Polymorphs are HD-dependent. Lacking HD grows to be a serious inconvenience once higher level magic kicks into play.

You're talking 7 Core melee class levels outside the dips; those aren't really going to change the world. Numerically, it's unlike for them to give more than DD does.

[Tyndmyr]

Eh, that depends. HD comes up with some extremely powerful effects. Blasphemy-line directly interacts with your HD. Polymorphs are HD-dependent. Lacking HD grows to be a serious inconvenience once higher level magic kicks into play.

The barbarian isn't going to be casting polymorph. Blasphemy is unlikely to matter unless you're non evil and fighting a balor. You don't typically fight people with CL 10 higher than you, for instance.


You're talking 7 Core melee class levels outside the dips; those aren't really going to change the world. Numerically, it's unlike for them to give more than DD does.

Well, you're already getting the same numbers from the HD template. So, it's all bonus. Even if it's the fairly unoptimized straight barb, any seven levels of barb offer a fairly notable amount of abilities. Ones that will come up in play far less than a purely lower HD quantity will.

[The Glyphstone]

I've already demonstrated that HD template and straight barb outperforms DD. And I didn't even have to include the hit for the necessary sorc/etc level to show that.


Correction - you demonstrated this for a game where you are high enough level to be able to choose between them. If you're starting anywhere below level 4, it's impossible to be a half-dragon period without DM dispensation for gaining an inherited template midgame. Even at levels 5 through 8 or so, you're still drastically behind on BAB and HP, which is a bad thing when you're a frontline meleer tending towards low relative AC.

In a game where you start high-level, HD+Barb may be the superior option, but very, very few games exist by that premise, and despite the inferior class features, leveling the hard way has the DD being far more likely to survive along the way.

[Tyndmyr]

Correction - you demonstrated this for a game where you are high enough level to be able to choose between them. If you're starting anywhere below level 4, it's impossible to be a half-dragon period without DM dispensation for gaining an inherited template midgame. Even at levels 5 through 8 or so, you're still drastically behind on BAB and HP, which is a bad thing when you're a frontline meleer tending towards low relative AC.

In a game where you start high-level, HD+Barb may be the superior option, but very, very few games exist by that premise, and despite the inferior class features, leveling the hard way has the DD being far more likely to survive along the way.

If it's not an option, there's no comparison to be made, but as for BaB...not a problem. You've got a giant pile of strength. As a low level HD/Barb, you tend to end up splattering whatever you hit instantly. Low hp is a problem when you have only a single class level..but it's still normally something like 16-18 hp, since you've got a con boost from HD and a con boost from rage. As soon as you get your second level, you're doing pretty alright. So...ECL 5. Given that the dragon disciple fellow doesn't have ANY bonuses or even levels in the PrC yet, and had to at least dip sorc...he's much worse off than you, and will probably die to you in a head to head ight.

[Flickerdart]

Disable Device, Open Lock...pfah! Use Axe is my preferred skill for taking care of pesky locks.

[Tyndmyr]

Disable Device, Open Lock...pfah! Use Axe is my preferred skill for taking care of pesky locks.

Not subtle, but definitely effective. An adamantine greatsword fixes anything.

[navar100]

Outside of that combo, who would use it over Skill Focus?

Except for Martial Adepts, Concentration is never really used for anything else anyway. Maybe once in a blue moon some situation might occur where a Concentration check is warranted but certainly not often enough to want Skill Focus for it. If a spellcaster is not wanting to spend two feats for defensive casting, which is understandable, Combat Casting gives 5% more chance of success.

Concentration itself I would agree is a poor skill. To spend ranks in it is a tax for specific class features: defensive spellcasting and Diamond Mind maneuvers. No one else needs or uses it. Since per the OP we're talking Core only, that leaves just spellcasting. If you think you will or find you are casting defensively often, Combat Casting is the better choice if you're only willing to spend one feat. Skill Focus is better only for particular campaigns where the DM will call for Concentration checks for whatever reasons a lot more often than is typical, i.e. none.

[Big Fau]

Except for Martial Adepts, Concentration is never really used for anything else anyway. Maybe once in a blue moon some situation might occur where a Concentration check is warranted but certainly not often enough to want Skill Focus for it. If a spellcaster is not wanting to spend two feats for defensive casting, which is understandable, Combat Casting gives 5% more chance of success.

Concentration itself I would agree is a poor skill. To spend ranks in it is a tax for specific class features: defensive spellcasting and Diamond Mind maneuvers. No one else needs or uses it. Since per the OP we're talking Core only, that leaves just spellcasting. If you think you will or find you are casting defensively often, Combat Casting is the better choice if you're only willing to spend one feat. Skill Focus is better only for particular campaigns where the DM will call for Concentration checks for whatever reasons a lot more often than is typical, i.e. none.


Well, Manifesters use if for Psionic Focus, but even their equivalent feat isn't worth taking for anyone who isn't a PsiWar (and, again, that's debatable).

[deuxhero]

Not subtle, but definitely effective. An adamantine greatsword fixes anything.

Except the whole "More feats aren't a class feature".

[ericgrau]

Seems roughly right, except...

Classes
Rogue and bard don't get good until you add non-core. Even the famed UMD is too expensive to get anything more than minor utility. I'd much rather have a fighter or paladin than either of them.

Prestige Classes
Now these are way off. Archmage and red wizard are very strong, true but assassin and loremaster are okay as they don't add anything big. The okay entries are correct though horizon walker is borderline until you get at least 6 levels, requiring mid-high level play to work. In core arcane archer is at least better than a cleric archer in terms of damage per fight until level 15+, so it's ok. Dragon disciple likewise is the #1 best melee option in core, so it's ok or strong (relative to anything else for melee). Dwarven defender suffers from the misconception that you have to use defensive stance. Otherwise it likewise gives good stat boosts and defensive stance that is just icing and, since it ends as a free action, 100% impossible to actually make you worse. So it's ok. Hierophant belongs in strong not weak because even though you give up a caster level each level each ability you gain every single level is epic. Mystic theurge is so-so along with eldritch knight; both make you worse at either role though more versatile. Shadowdancer I can understand being with weak though I've seen ways to make it work. And even without those ways it's a superb dip.

Feats
Strong
Augment summoning is merely okay because core summoning sucks. Extend spell is okay or weak due to the 3,000 gp lesser rod of extend spell. I've figure out damage per round from improved initiative and it's about half as good as anything else, making it okay. Power attack needs splats to work well and is okay or weak in core, since you need attack bonus so badly. The rest seem good.

Okay
I suppose you can't go wrong throwing most things into ok. Brew potion is borderline but pretty nice at low levels. Cleave is a bit situational too except at low levels.

Weak
Ya good, throw most of the skill feats in here because most DMs don't pay much attention to them. Though it's a shame IMO. Likewise other overly situational stuff, good. Combat casting is actually okay at most levels because most games don't happen at level 20 and you do fail checks; yes I know about skill focus(concentration) too but even then you could fail and the feat is at least so-so as it covers 90% of concentration situations anyway. I'm a bit surprised empower didn't get strong and maximize okay; I mean empower seems to show up all the time in builds. It's for more than just damage; try it on ray of enfeeblement, false life and heck all kinds of necromancy to watch them shine. Point blank shot belongs in okay and the entire fighter tree belongs in okay or strong (compared to anything else for melee). Again because attack bonus is so critical in core-only. In fact after including the attack penalty weapon specialization usually adds more damage per fight than power attack. You really need splats to flip this around.

Schools
Without splatbooks you need evocation, I'd even put it in strong with things like wall of force, resilient sphere and half a dozen others. Dunno the thought behind having abjuration in strong instead of weak. With a reactive approach to casting 90% of what you prepared is the wrong protection against what you're facing. In other words it's pitiful on all but a schroedenger wizard. Divination suffers similar problems in core. Necromancy is very easy to dump but it has the best no save single target debuffs (again, try with empower) so it's okay I'd say.


It's not actually that bad in core only...but it's not that good compared to just taking the half dragon template.

Consider...you end up with a few less hit die, but if you take the seven levels that otherwise would be wasted on DD as, say, barbarian or another full bab class...you end up the same BaB, and you get actual class features. Rage, greater rage, or mighty rage will result in getting enough in-combat hp to compensate for the lack of hp. DD has a mere 2+int skills, so the barbarian pulls ahead in skill points...and the other class features are all win.

Really, I just never end up taking it instead of just grabbing the HD template and more levels of some base class.


I've already demonstrated that HD template and straight barb outperforms DD. And I didn't even have to include the hit for the necessary sorc/etc level to show that.

Try it again with actual numbers to compare stats and you'll find those DD HD are actually useful enough even sans class features to beat out partial class features + 3 levels of zippo. I did, and found that dragon-disciple is the best core melee option bar none. Though what's even better is to find a good stopping point on your base class rather than earliest entry into DD, and DD likewise is good to stop at 4 or 7. Likewise when I talk about power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339), the fighter tree and so on I'm not merely using fuzzy logic but I've beaten it to mathematical death a few years ago and don't wish to again because I don't want to write a 9th 10 page post. Again, you need splats to change all that.

EDIT: Had a link handy for power attack math, but anything else would take an hour of searching so I don't have the time.

[Zeta Kai]

Show me where I said the word "Wizard" in my post. Please. I seem to be missing it every time I read it. I'll wait.

I used Wizard as a shorthand for "the guy in your party who is casting the knock spell willy-nilly". It's either a Sorcerer or a Wizard, because they are the only two classes in Core that can cast it. And the Sorcerer is far less likely to know knock than the Wizard.

In theory, a Wizard may pick it up & put it in their spell book at some point in their career. But a Sorcerer? Please. A Sorcerer gets precisely FIVE 2nd-level spells known ever, & they don't max that out until 11th level. And I already named 8 demonstrably-better 2nd-level spells in my last post. Like I said before, if your party's caster has chosen knock as one of their spells, then you guys have some issues that you need to work out.

Also, nitpicking about my choice of the term Wizard is a petty & pedantic arguing tactic. You're better than that.


My point was that Disable Device's DC doesn't require you to take 20 to open the lock. Hell, if need be I'd tell the player to buy a wand of Knock ASAP if the Open Lock skill came up enough to warrant me putting skill points into it. Or buy an Adamantine weapon for the party's tank, which should suffice for most locks (barring stealth-oriented missions where the wand would be more useful anyway).

And my point is that Disable Device doesn't open locks. It just doesn't do that. That's not what it's for.

If your DM lets you use it that way, great. He must be a really nice, generous guy. And he also must not understand the rules of the game, because they don't work that way.

Also, I was using the Taking 20 rules as a way to demonstrate how easy it is to attain the necessary check result to beat the DC. And that was to show that Open Lock is a skill that is very easy to (ab)use without too much effort. The DCs for Disable Device should be comparable to Open Lock, if not higher, because you are using for purposes that it was not designed for, & the epic uses of Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disableDevice) indicate that it is twice as hard to use as an epic Open Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#openLock).

Yes, a wand of knock is nice. And I'll agree a party that deals with locks all the time should invest in one. But it's 4,500gp. That's not chump change when there's equipment, weapons, armor, & other provisions to buy. If you're following WBL at all, then you'll see that 4,500gp is half the money that a 5th-level character is going to have total. Even if a party pools their money to buy one (& it's hard to imagine a campaign where doing so would be a top priority), they're still not gonna get one earlier than 3rd level, which is when the spell is available. I wouldn't recommend getting such an expensive & ancillary item before 7th or 8th level, & by then, your Rogue should be hitting the Open Lock DCs of anything that isn't magically barred.

And yes, an Adamantine weapon will take care of most problems. But if you're resorting to that kind of solution, the time for crouching down in front of a lock & applying finesse has long past. Odds are that if you need that door opened that quickly, that weapon should be pointed in the other direction.


I believe the Open Lock skill is highly overrated when another skill on the Rogue's class list (and one of the Rogue's defining skills) can do the job in a more timely manner.

They are both "defining skills" in D&D, IMO, so I don't think that proves anything. Also, the time it takes for Disable Device is anywhere from 1 full round to 2d4 rounds, & by RAW, you don't know if you did it right, because the check is made in secret. And Open Lock check is always a single full round, & you always know if you did it right. Assuming that your DM isn't throwing you a bone, it will always take less time to make an Open Lock check than a Disable Device check of the same DC, because with Disable Device, it will take a separate action to determine if you did it right. But that's assuming that you can even use both skills on the same thing (the lock), which by all rights, you can't. That's just not how the rules are written.


If that is all it takes to jam the lock, one can extrapolate from this that it is likewise trivial to disassemble the lock, rendering it useless for it's primary function.

And here's where I have to explain how a door works. :smallsigh:

No, one canNOT extrapolate such a thing, because that makes no sense. Jamming a lock is rendering it inoperable by a person with a key, meaning that they will be unable to UNlock it. That is a trivial thing to do, & the DC accurately reflects that ease. Any yahoo can do that.

It is NOT, however, similarly easy to "disassemble the lock, rendering it useless for it's primary function", nor should such ease be inferred or extrapolated thus. To disassemble a lock, one needs access to its parts, & an understanding of how they interact. You can't just jam something in there & twist until the lock is jammed; the lock would still be preventing you from entry, & the guy with the key couldn't help you anymore (not that he would anyway, or you wouldn't be resorting to picks & wands). It's "primary function" (IE keeping you out) would still be preserved. This is why the DCs for Open Lock are so much higher than that fleeting reference to a lock in Disable Device. If it were so easy, then nobody would bother with a lock at all.

I thought at fist that you were talking about using Disable Device to take apart the hinges of the door in question (not to speak of the strangeness of putting the hinges on the outside of a door), but it's clear that's not what you meant. You are apparently under the impression that you can somehow use Disable Device on the actual lock, which is very much not a part of its intended function.

[ericgrau]

Ooh, the knock debate. First off I didn't even touch skills in general because they depend so much on the DM and so on.

But as for knock, for practical optimization I carry a scroll or three and never ever prepare it. Thus it is useful but does not make unlimited use per day open lock obsolete. I could get in more detail but I'd be hitting DM fiat territory as described above.

[Godskook]

I believe the common approach is to Disable Device on the hinges and bypass the lock entirely.

1.The hinges *SHOULD* be on the other side of the barrier, in most cases.

2."Disabling" a hinge does not 'remove' it, merely jam it so it stops working properly. There's no obvious rules for what the DC is to remove a hinge entirely(or break it entirely).

[EagleWiz]

I wouldn't call forgery weak, just campaign dependant. Its not going to be great in a hack 'n slash, but it could be really usefull in a more urban setting.

Core Spells: Whats wrong with enchantment and necromancy? Enchantment is chock full of save or lose, and necromancy has a number of solid (although not that broken) spells.

Edit: My 2c on the disable device debate: Disabling a lock would just make it unable to unlock normally, not open it; Disabling hinges would probably just make the door stuck.

[tyckspoon]

Enchantment's main problem is half the school is basically "Charm Person level 1/2/3/4/5...", and the other half is not terribly strong. They all pretty much target Will and are [Mind-Effecting] (Compulsion), so if you're defended against one you're largely defended against the entire school, and they tend to have little fiddly restrictions on what they can work against that other spell schools largely don't have to worry about.

Necromancy is mostly just tiny. The highlights of it are truly good spells, but they're not often doing anything you absolutely *need* or can't find an alternate approach to. If you don't want to: Make Undead, Control Undead, Destroy Undead, or cause Negative Levels, you can get along without Necromancy (that said, in core only, I don't think I'd ban it- it contains Astral Projection, Enervation, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement, and the fatigue/exhaustion debuffs. But it's also not good enough to specialize in.)

[sonofzeal]

Enchantment's main problem is half the school is basically "Charm Person level 1/2/3/4/5...", and the other half is not terribly strong. They all pretty much target Will and are [Mind-Effecting] (Compulsion), so if you're defended against one you're largely defended against the entire school, and they tend to have little fiddly restrictions on what they can work against that other spell schools largely don't have to worry about.

Necromancy is mostly just tiny. The highlights of it are truly good spells, but they're not often doing anything you absolutely *need* or can't find an alternate approach to. If you don't want to: Make Undead, Control Undead, Destroy Undead, or cause Negative Levels, you can get along without Necromancy (that said, in core only, I don't think I'd ban it- it contains Astral Projection, Enervation, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement, and the fatigue/exhaustion debuffs. But it's also not good enough to specialize in.)
I don't know, it's easily the #1 school for debuffs, especially no-save-just-debuff. That's a viable party role all by itself.

[Eldariel]

The barbarian isn't going to be casting polymorph. Blasphemy is unlikely to matter unless you're non evil and fighting a balor. You don't typically fight people with CL 10 higher than you, for instance.

Eh, evil Clerics much? And they have access to ways to buff their caster level in the teens. Of course I'm not talking about just Blasphemy, I'm talking about the whole line. Hezrou have Blasphemy too, as do Pit Fiends. Half-Fiends know Blasphemy. Death Slaadi and Titans know Word of Chaos. I'll bet some creatures from Mechanus know Dictum. And then, again, there are all the creatures and beings with Cleric spellcasting.

And of course he's not casting Polymorph himself but if you have a party with a melee and a caster, Polymorph is one of the greatest buffs available, and it just so happens to not be Personal.

You're comparing two uncomparable things here. It depends on way too many factors outside the scope of RAW to truly say whether HD or the class features will matter more.


So...ECL 5. Given that the dragon disciple fellow doesn't have ANY bonuses or even levels in the PrC yet, and had to at least dip sorc...he's much worse off than you, and will probably die to you in a head to head ight.

Eh, ECL 5 a Half-Dragon is inconvenienced. The difference between the HD is too great still. A bit later it gets closer but ECL 5, a Half-Dragon has under the half a non-Templated character's HD.

Say, Human Barb 4/Sorc 1 vs. Half-Dragon Barb 2; both with 18 base Con and Str and say 14 Dex. Half-Dragon has 2 more HP from the Con bonus; Human has 2d12+1d4+3xCon more from Hit Dice. Human would have 54 HP normally, 64 in Rage. Half-Dragon would have 28. Half-Dragon dies in 2-3 hits while even coming from him, the Half-Dragon will require 5-6 hits to kill the Human.

Of course, this is even worse when not in a duel; a Barbarian's survivability is based on his Hit Points and with both the bonus Constitution and Class Hit Dice giving less HP than normal, simple AOE damage like breath weapons end to end a Half-Dragon's life quickly. As a rule of thumb, it's not sensible to lose half your HD for something so I wouldn't look at playing a Half-Dragon under ECL 7.