Should neraphim be +1 LA?

[BIGMamaSloth]

In a game I'm running one of my players asked if he could play a Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2). I told him I would look into it for now.
These don't have any LA, but with the outsider type, +2 natural armor and the decent neraph camouflage ability, don't these seem to be more of a +1 LA race?

I'm not terribly good at judging somethings power, so hat's why I'm asking a second opinion with the playground.

[Urpriest]

Outsider type is the only part of that that's really worth +1 LA. I'd say if you don't let them get automatic martial weapon proficiency from their Outsider type then they're fine at +0 LA, balanced with Humans and Dwarves.

[Starbuck_II]

In a game I'm running one of my players asked if he could play a Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2). I told him I would look into it for now.
These don't have any LA, but with the outsider type, +2 natural armor and the decent neraph camouflage ability, don't these seem to be more of a +1 LA race?

I'm not terribly good at judging somethings power, so hat's why I'm asking a second opinion with the playground.

Outsider type means hard to raise if you die. They don't have a decent Favored class I think compared to other classes.
Camoflage is 1/encounter/enemy, so you get 1 sneak attack at most each (likely only killing at low levels).

So Outsiders hard to raise= bad.
+2 NA is good. Camo is decent. But the Bad counter acts that.
So LA +0 fits.
It is widely known and does not dominate any play experience at LA 0. So It is fine.

[Flickerdart]

+1 LA? Even at +0, it's not a better choice than Human or Dwarf for the overwhelming majority of builds. At +1, it would be worthless.

[BIGMamaSloth]

ok, thanks for the Input, I think I'll be leaving it at +0 then. I was mostly worried about the outsider type, but it doesn't seem that bad. Does Outsider (extra planar) add anything different from base outsider?

[Urpriest]

ok, thanks for the Input, I think I'll be leaving it at +0 then. I was mostly worried about the outsider type, but it doesn't seem that bad. Does Outsider (extra planar) add anything different from base outsider?

(Extraplanar) basically just means they can get banished if they're not on Limbo.

[DoctorGlock]

The only thing wrong with the outsider type is alter self/polymorph abuse, and those are related to the obscene power of the spells in question rather than the race. Frankly, automatic weapon proficiency does nothing with the exception of some oddball gish builds out there, and even then it's not a particularly big difference.

Also you are stuck playing an ugly frog monster.

[Flickerdart]

ok, thanks for the Input, I think I'll be leaving it at +0 then. I was mostly worried about the outsider type, but it doesn't seem that bad. Does Outsider (extra planar) add anything different from base outsider?
Extraplanar is a subtype that's acquired by anyone not on their own home plane. Some effects affect extraplanar creatures differently, but it doesn't give bonuses or anything.

[BIGMamaSloth]

The only thing wrong with the outsider type is alter self/polymorph abuse, and those are related to the obscene power of the spells in question rather than the race. Frankly, automatic weapon proficiency does nothing with the exception of some oddball gish builds out there, and even then it's not a particularly big difference.

Also you are stuck playing an ugly frog monster.

Being an ugly frog Monster is the best part! that's actually why he wants to play one.

[DoctorGlock]

Being an ugly frog Monster is the best part! that's actually why he wants to play one.

Can't argue with that then. What classes he going for?

[BIGMamaSloth]

Cleric or favored soul, I don't think the players decided yet.

[Rubik]

Cleric or favored soul, I don't think the players decided yet.He should be a charger whatever he does. Those flat-footed charges are nice.

[Psyren]

An Aasimar would beat the pants off a +1 LA Neraphim, and even they are overcosted.

Neraphim are fine.

[Marnath]

One minor thing to add, is that he won't need to eat or sleep since he's a real outsider and not a native one like the planetouched races.

[Thurbane]

+1 LA? Even at +0, it's not a better choice than Human or Dwarf for the overwhelming majority of builds. At +1, it would be worthless.
Dumb question - what makes Dwarves so good? Is it +2 to a stat most everybody likes, and a -2 to the most common dump stat? Or is it the grab bag of racial extras and bonuses they get?

[Gandariel]

they are good for what they do.. i mean, they're a good race for any warrior type.
+2 Con is ALWAYS good, while -2Cha doesn't hurt unless you're Cha-focused (and you likely aren't, if you're considering Dwarf..)
the other bonuses they get are nice but situational..
they get the nice "keep 20-feet speed in heavy armor" and an Exotic weapon proficiency..

[sonofzeal]

Dumb question - what makes Dwarves so good? Is it +2 to a stat most everybody likes, and a -2 to the most common dump stat? Or is it the grab bag of racial extras and bonuses they get?
For me is the extra hp from Con coupled with the +2 vs Spells and Spell-likes. I realize there's a lot of no-save spells that don't deal hp damage yadda yadda yadda, but a Dwarf has a significant survivability boost in most situations.... and no loss of offensive power. They make good Fighters, but they also make great Clerics and Wizards too. Really, they're an excellent choice for just about anything that doesn't need Charisma. Which is most things.

Given that I personally like my characters to survive, I'll take it.

[Piggy Knowles]

You know, everyone touts the "keep your 20' speed in heavy armor" like it's a positive class feature, when really it's just a mitigating factor that keeps the dwarf's single biggest drawback from boning you TOO hard...

(I hate playing anything with reduced movement speed, by the way.)

Anyhow, as long as he's not using Alter Self to turn into a Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3), or similar silly abuses of creature type, you'll be fine. As has been mentioned, the Neraphim's not unbalanced so much as spells like Alter Self are.

[sreservoir]

movement speed deficiency isn't too bad; any sort of mount, or most sources of flight, will mitigate it.

[ericgrau]

Dang forum ate my post. Here's hoping for no double post.

Individually none of the abilities seem too problematic but together there are too many significant advantages; and they aren't as minor as stonecunning either. I'd maybe nix one for LA 0 but even as-is it'd be too painful to play at LA 1. Plus dwarves are already on the high end of LA 0; I wouldn't want to go another step further.

[Rubik]

Dang forum ate my post. Here's hoping for no double post.

Individually none of the abilities seem too problematic but together there are too many significant advantages; and they aren't as minor as stonecunning either. I'd maybe nix one for LA 0 but even as-is it'd be too painful to play at LA 1. Plus dwarves are already on the high end of LA 0; I wouldn't want to go another step further.They're a reasonably strong LA 0, but the vast majority of the time I'd rather play kobold, human, warforged, or dwarf, myself.

[Jallorn]

I'm confused. The OP says Neraphin have no LA, but at the bottom it says they have a LA of +0.

And on the topic of Dwarves and heavy armor, it's just a feature that punishes Dwarves who don't wear heavy armor.

[sreservoir]

humans have no listed LA and therefore are unsuitable as PCs!

[Rubik]

humans have no listed LA and therefore are unsuitable as PCs!They're all CE bastards anyway.

[ericgrau]

They're a reasonably strong LA 0, but the vast majority of the time I'd rather play kobold, human, warforged, or dwarf, myself.

I think this and half the others are assuming use of kobold specific material, or a feat intensive splat build. Using common feats or, say, the kobold as-is <shudder> I wouldn't.

It's not the camouflage or the natural armor or the 5 lesser things, but all of these put together. Maybe in a higher power game then ya I could see them as LA 0 as-is no problem. Or at high level play when a sneak attack trigger is less useful.

[sonofzeal]

I think this and half the others are assuming use of kobold specific material, or a feat intensive splat build. Using common feats or, say, the kobold as-is <shudder> I wouldn't.

It's not the camouflage or the natural armor or the 5 lesser things, but all of these put together. Maybe in a higher power game then ya I could see them as LA 0 as-is no problem.
This free online web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is all that's needed to make Kobolds a viable race in play.

And add Goblins to the list - Small size and Dex bonus makes for good sneakers, but they get a better bonus on Move Silently than Halflings, and no penalty to land speed. That's worth what you lose in other areas for a dedicated sneaker.



Also, I really don't see the issue with them. Camouflage and Natural Armor is nice, but the rest is pretty mediocre. Overall they're good, but still not better than the other good LA+0 options. They're certainly no "Anthropomorphic Bat" that's cheesy enough to warrant special action.

[ericgrau]

Besides the +2 to the most popular secondary stat and a +2 to most saves, dwarves don't have much going for them. Anything significant trumps all of the little things, which might never or barely see play an entire campaign. There's a difference between mediocre and almost useless. If dwarves weren't LA 0 PHB where any tiny thing you can get helps, you wouldn't even bother reading the extras. Plus I'd put the two major neraphim abilities a little above the two major dwarf abilities.

I think we're using different standards too. Among (unaltered, splat-free) PHB races dwarves are near the top so I wouldn't want to go even a little higher, but once you bring in extra material the standards get raised a bit and there's some breathing room. So... depends on the OP's group.

[Rubik]

I think this and half the others are assuming use of kobold specific material, or a feat intensive splat build. Using common feats or, say, the kobold as-is <shudder> I wouldn't.

It's not the camouflage or the natural armor or the 5 lesser things, but all of these put together. Maybe in a higher power game then ya I could see them as LA 0 as-is no problem. Or at high level play when a sneak attack trigger is less useful.The online web enhancement is generally all I use, though I occasionally use Dragonwrought (but only to even out the stats a bit -- and nothing else). Note that the latter is only once in awhile in high-op games.

But web enhancement kobolds are still teh hax.

[deuxhero]

as minor as stonecunning

Huh?

Dungeons and Dragons.

Unless the traps and secrets are all hidden in wooden or metal (the first presents a high risk of bypass) construction, thats a +2 check when it matters.

[ericgrau]

on dwarven rogues...

[Greenish]

You know, everyone touts the "keep your 20' speed in heavy armor" like it's a positive class feature, when really it's just a mitigating factor that keeps the dwarf's single biggest drawback from boning you TOO hard...You can tumble in heavy armour! :smalltongue:


I think we're using different standards too. Among (unaltered, splat-free) PHB races dwarves are near the top so I wouldn't want to go even a little higher, but once you bring in extra material the standards get raised a bit and there's some breathing room. So... depends on the OP's group.Once you bring in extra materials, dwarves will benefit from being from PHB and thus more support than more exotic races. Not saying they're the best race there is, but they're plenty solid.

[sonofzeal]

Besides the +2 to the most popular secondary stat and a +2 to most saves, dwarves don't have much going for them. Anything significant trumps all of the little things, which might never or barely see play an entire campaign. There's a difference between mediocre and almost useless. If dwarves weren't LA 0 PHB where any tiny thing you can get helps, you wouldn't even bother reading the extras. Plus I'd put the two major neraphim abilities a little above the two major dwarf abilities.

I think we're using different standards too. Among (unaltered, splat-free) PHB races dwarves are near the top so I wouldn't want to go even a little higher, but once you bring in extra material the standards get raised a bit and there's some breathing room. So... depends on the OP's group.
I fail to see how +2 NA is more valuable than +2 saves vs magic, and I'm generally a proponent of paying attention to AC. Nearly every important saving throw you'll make is vs magic, and most of those can really mess up your day. Also, standards are higher for AC, you can expect to see much better bonuses than you will for saves. This makes a free +2 much more valuable for saves, since there's less alternatives for picking it up.

As for camouflage vs Con boost, well, that's more iffy. The edge probably goes to Camouflage, simply because D&D favours offence over defence and there's only a few ways to use Con for offence. But +2 to Con is hard to underrate; it flat-out improves almost any character in the game, while Camouflage is really just a trinket like Stonecunning unless you've got Sneak Attack or the like, at which point the "only applies on a single attack" caveat makes it nice but not a game-changer.


All in all, I think Neraphs are tied with Dwarves. And that's a good place to be - worth playing, but hardly a must-play "take this automatically if available". Heck, neither Rogue Handbook a quick google got me mentions them, which is a sure sign that they're not famously awesome. Both mention Strongheart Halfling though, which is just as obscure as far as sources go.

I think that tells you something.

[hex0]

Are Neraphim a strong race with lots of nice features? Yes, indeed. Their camouflage ability is great but a lot of characters can gain it via feat(s) with 5 ranks in Knowledge the Planes and decent ability scores, etc. So there is that to consider as well.

No one mentioned playing a Neraph Spellthief yet? :smallannoyed: That's one of the best race/class combinations out there!

Back in 3.0 and early 3.5, natural armor was vastly over-hyped. I think Savage Species says it is an automatic LA +1, actually. But, no. Seriously. Natural Armor is probably the weakest form of AC bonus. Dodge and Deflection are where it is at.

[The-Mage-King]

...You know, through a very liberal reading, the section about dwarf movement could read that they move at their BASE land speed while wearing heavy armor...


*Imagines dwarf with quick trait, Shadow template, and Spiked Adamantine Fullplate, moving faster than the rest of the party*



EDIT: But yeah. Neraphs are perfectly reasonable at LA +0. Worst you get is making Tiger Claw's jump maneuvers a bit better. And flat footed charges.

...Oh. Oh my. Excuse me. I have a build to make.

[sonofzeal]

No one mentioned playing a Neraph Spellthief yet? :smallannoyed: That's one of the best race/class combinations out there!
Side note: I have a random character generator that pulls from every race, class, and deity to generate totally random PCs. The first time I'd ever heard of Neraphim was when I used it to generate my next PC... and it spat out "Neraphim Spellthief". No joke.

I'm not using Alter Self though. I've got quite enough toys without Outsider polymorph shenanigans.

[Thurbane]

on dwarven rogues...
Any dwarf can search for traps as well as a rogue, if they are stonework related. It's one of the few ways to do so without having the Trapfinding class feature for traps DC 20+.

[hex0]

Any dwarf can search for traps as well as a rogue, if they are stonework related. It's one of the few ways to do so without having the Trapfinding class feature for traps DC 20+.

I think it has been debated before, but the Trapfinding ability is kindof a non-starter. But Dwarves just get so much. Even if a lot is situational.

But of the LA +0 races that I can think of off the top of my head the lesser Genasi/Planetouched, Humans, Dwarves (except if you need CHA), Warforged (mostly for melee), Neraphim are at the top of the curve. Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings follow and Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are just pathetic.

A lot of people treat Hobgoblins as LA +0 as well, given that Lesser Assamir get similar (actually...better) abilities for the same LA.

[Thurbane]

I think it has been debated before, but the Trapfinding ability is kindof a non-starter. But Dwarves just get so much. Even if a lot is situational.

But of the LA +0 races that I can think of off the top of my head the lesser Genasi/Planetouched, Humans, Dwarves (except if you need CHA), Warforged (mostly for melee), Neraphim are at the top of the curve. Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings follow and Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are just pathetic.

A lot of people treat Hobgoblins as LA +0 as well, given that Lesser Assamir get similar (actually...better) abilities for the same LA.
Yes, half-orcs and half-elves in particular are fairly crappy races...and hobgoblins absolutely get hosed for LA +1. Snow Goblins are also pretty awful: +1 LA for a net -2 to abilities, in exchange for a 20 ft climb speed. Climb speed is nice, but not that nice...

[hex0]

Yes, half-orcs and half-eleves in particular are fairly crappy races...and hobgoblins absolutely get hosed for LA +1. Snow Goblins are also pretty awful: +1 LA for a net -2 to abilities, in exchange for a 20 ft climb speed. Climb speed is nice, but not that nice...

Half-orcs in my games didn't get the INT penalty (to mesh with the Human's effective +2 int for skills) and got a bonus feat like a Human! But it had to be a bonus fighter feat.

You could even give the Half-Elf a net +2 CHA and remove the +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks and it wouldn't be broken.

[RndmNumGen]

on dwarven rogues...

Ahem...


A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can.

Already been mentioned, I know, but I figured I would provide the source.

[Ivellius]

...You know, through a very liberal reading, the section about dwarf movement could read that they move at their BASE land speed while wearing heavy armor...


*Imagines dwarf with quick trait, Shadow template, and Spiked Adamantine Fullplate, moving faster than the rest of the party*

Um, I think that works, actually. "This" can refer to either 20 ft. or their base land speed (or both), and I'd think the idea is they move at their base speed even in heavier stuff. Which means that if you stick only to core you can have a dwarf barbarian in medium armor that moves just as quickly as the rest of the group.

More on topic: I almost want to stat up a Neraphim Warblade now. What would be the best way to include a bit of healing on that chassis? Take a few Devoted Spirit maneuvers?

[Greenish]

More on topic: I almost want to stat up a Neraphim Warblade now. What would be the best way to include a bit of healing on that chassis?Healing Belt. :smalltongue: