Arcane build without its greatest weapon....

[Devronq]

What the best way to do arcane dps/blaster (and not buffer or debuffer or gish or anything else) without using any metamagic, or whats a good unique way of going about it without using the usually abuse metamagic and blast away? Please and thank you :)

[Big Fau]

You're asking us how to climb a mountain without using your spine. Have fun with that.

[Devronq]

So is the correct answer that its not possible? Cause i can live with that i just wanted to know...

[Big Fau]

So is the correct answer that its not possible? Cause i can live with that i just wanted to know...

While it is possible, you'd be little better than a Warmage. Metamagic is the lifeblood of Blasting, something it just does not do well without. A Blaster's resources are incredibly limited by comparison to a Fighter, and blasting without metamagic means your damage output is comparable to a Warlock's a majority of the time.

After all, what good does it do you to use a spell slot to deal 5d6 when you can cast a spell that allows the Fighter and Rogue to take an extra attack if the average damage output of your party's Fighter/Rogue exceeds 17 damage/attack?

[Randomguy]

Be a wizard and take a few reserve feats, or be a warlock, or be a warmage, or be a shadowcaster and spam killing shadows. You can do it, you're just going to be pretty ineffective.

You know, if you're focusing on DPS anyway, you could try warmage 1 (precocious apprentice)/shadowcaster 3/noctumancer 10/mystic theurge 10. The classes have a bit of synergy, since warmages actually get something out of putting points in int. The reason that this built is rarely used is that both warmages and shadowcasters suck, but for DPS and no metamagic it would be a decent combo.

EDIT: This is less of climbing a mountain without a spine and more of fighting in a modern war without firearms. Technically possible, but it won't end well for you.

[Hirax]

No metamagic? Well, maw of chaos doesn't need metamagic. Use circle magic and consumptive field and it'll do 60d6 per round that can only be avoided if you have mettle or SR better than 60. If you want to be nasty, hold a bunch of things that give you negative levels to reduce your CL to 1 (unholy arrows would work, are those legal to make?). Assuming you're level 20, that way circle magic will give you +39 to your CL, then you can drop the unholy arrows for a CL of 59. Use a bead of karma and other CL boosters to cast consumptive field at CL 70 or so, for an additional bonus of +35~. That'll put you at CL 94, and I'm sure if you worked at it you could have an all day CL of a nice even 100 if you worked to eke the most out of your consumptive field bonus.

[Urpriest]

As a milder form of the above, generally CL buffs are what casters work with when they can't use metamagic, especially at low levels.

For a similar concept but not an arcane caster, psionic blasters can do reasonably well without metapsionics, though they are weaker in that situation.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

only the regular feats are banned? There are many was to gain metamagic effects.

I have the max eldritch blast bu

[kardar233]

As a milder form of the above, generally CL buffs are what casters work with when they can't use metamagic, especially at low levels.

For a similar concept but not an arcane caster, psionic blasters can do reasonably well without metapsionics, though they are weaker in that situation.

Using a cap-breaker like Reserves of Strength (or an uncapped spell like Wings of Flurry or Maw of Chaos) and some serious CL boosting stuff like a Trickster Spellthief dip with Master Spellthief, and then using either AbjChamp in a gish build or Ultimate Magus to double-boost your CL. With a build like Sorcerer6/Trickster Spellthief1/Eldritch Knight2/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight +6, you can have a +16 BAB and a caster level of 34, plus bonuses from things like Practiced Spellcaster or whatever. This build would require getting Martial Weapon Proficiencies from the Outsider type, the Militia feat or similar. Another option might be a Suel Arcanamach-> Sublime Chord build.

[DoctorGlock]

Well, seems like most of the tricks have been mentioned. Without meta, you have to pump your CL until it is ridiculous

War-Mage (age of mortals) gains +3 damage/die on blasty spells

Reserves of strength is the biggest asset you will have.

Wings of flurry is the best damage/debuff combo outside of orb of fire

Best straight up damage without metamagic... probably elemental dart from DLCS

conjuration 2
fort 1/2
spontaneous element selection
1 dart per 2 levels after 1st, max 5 (like magic missile)
1d6+1/lvl damage per dart (max +10)

so, 10th level caster is getting 5d6+50, not great, but we have reserves for 7d6+91, average 115.5, this things starts to ramp up amazingly fast

lvl 20, assuming some items, without high op, you hit CL 25 for 13 missiles, let's assume you have war mage

13d6+65+325, or 435.5 average, 5d6 damage to self because obviously you found a way to be stun immune

It can be done, it just requires more diving.

[Tyndmyr]

What the best way to do arcane dps/blaster (and not buffer or debuffer or gish or anything else) without using any metamagic, or whats a good unique way of going about it without using the usually abuse metamagic and blast away? Please and thank you :)

Quantity. Arcane Fusion, for instance, or Arcane Spellsurge. Belt of Battle. The idea is, crank out a LOT of spells a round.

Then find hilariously lethal nukes like Streamers.

My personal fav is Time Stop followed Maw of Chaos(repeat until out of time/spells). Kind of expensive in terms of spells used, but it tends to kill absolutely anything and everything around you.

[Telonius]

I suppose you could go Arcane Trickster, and use Ray spells (or some other weaponlike spell). Add in Craven, find ways to get Sneak Attack, and you'll still be doing a decent amount of damage.

[Psyren]

I agree with Telonius - the best alternative might be rays/orbs and sneak attack or a similar bonus damage source.


only the regular feats are banned? There are many was to gain metamagic effects.

I hope you don't mean the rods, since all they do is apply the fea

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Of course not just the rods, for instance

[Big Fau]

only the regular feats are banned? There are many was to gain metamagic effects.

I have the max eldritch blast bu


I agree with Telonius - the best alternative might be rays/orbs and sneak attack or a similar bonus damage source.



I hope you don't mean the rods, since all they do is apply the fea


Of course not just the rods, for instance

Dear god, it's spreading...

[Manateee]

Do double-threat DPS+control/debuff/whatevers count?

Because you could make a decent character with things like Lightning Leap, Great Thunderclap or Defenestrating Sphere.


Dear god, it's
fixed that for

[Master Thrower]

I suppose you could go Arcane Trickster, and use Ray spells (or some other weaponlike spell). Add in Craven, find ways to get Sneak Attack, and you'll still be doing a decent amount of damage.

Add in archmage to get arcane fire and your doing pretty good

Spell Thief 1 Rogue 1 Wizard 5, Arcane Trickster 8, Archmage 5.

Using a first level spell slot you can do-
5d6 (Archmage) + 6d6 (SA) add in craven, and thats a decent way to blast right there.

Or even use archmage for spell like ability on an some high level blast spell, (Orbs come to mind, but thats a poor trade off) to always have sneak attackable spells on hand.

[jiriku]

Wizard 5/red wizard 5 with a specialization in either conjuration or evocation works well, and requires only the core rulebooks to function. It's easy to use circle magic to buff your caster level considerably. Also, you can apply free heighten, maximize, and empower to your spells, although if you want to blast it's generally more advantageous to just buff your caster level.

Archmage for mastery of shaping is nice too, because you can

[Randomguy]

Another option is Wizard 5/Spellthief 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Red Wizard 5/Spellwarp sniper 5/Unseen Seer or Red Wizard 2.

You can use wyrm wizard to get wings of flurry on your spell list and red wizard to pump up your CL. Spellwarp sniper means you can turn wings of flurry into a ray and get rid of that pesky reflex save. If you take levels in unseen seer, get hunter's eye for more sneak attack.

You use CL pumping, spellwarped wings of flurry and on occaision maw of chaos to deal tons of damage without any metamagic (Though the same build with split ray would be much stronger)

The downside is that fluffwise, the build makes no sen

[Urpriest]

Another option is Wizard 5/Spellthief 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Red Wizard 5/Spellwarp sniper 5/Unseen Seer or Red Wizard 2.

You can use wyrm wizard to get wings of flurry on your spell list and red wizard to pump up your CL. Spellwarp sniper means you can turn wings of flurry into a ray and get rid of that pesky reflex save. If you take levels in unseen seer, get hunter's eye for more sneak attack.

You use CL pumping, spellwarped wings of flurry and on occaision maw of chaos to deal tons of damage without any metamagic (Though the same build with split ray would be much stronger)

The downside is that fluffwise, the build makes no sen

Eh, it's not that bad. Red Wizards are devious folks, not that odd for one to have some sneak attack. And I could definitely see a Red Wizard mugging a Dragon for its arcane secrets. Don't they have a few Dracoliches in their employ?

[Hirax]

Halruaan elder also wouldn't be a bad choice, so you could use its free signature spells to spam your blasting spells. Or hathran with acorn of far travel, if you want to be evil.

[Heliomance]

Then find hilariously lethal nukes like Streamers.


My reading on Streamers is that each streamer will only deal its damage once. The wording is "Whenever the target next takes an action" (emphasis mine).

[ericgrau]

Wizard 1 / rogue X.

He can afford a lesser rod of quicken spell only a little bit after an arcane trickster might grab quicken. Around 11+. He has less spell damage and no metamagic, but more sneak attack to make up for it. Plus later on he can use wands for even more damage. Later use quickened cantrip + wand for double sneak attack-age.

A good first level spell might be grease for a sneak attack trigger. Alternatively win initiative. Better yet get a wand of swift invisibility.

[Snowbluff]

The Warlock solution would be a maxed out Glaive or Claw Lock. The less obvious would be to become Hellfire Warlock, then Take levels on Legacy-something-or-other or Uncanny Trickster and apply the Class Feature levels to HFlock, granting more Hellfire Blast and Eldritch Blast d6 at the same time.
If your DM will allow Meta-SLA feats, take them.

Then grab some Incarnum or (if your DM is a jerk) some Rods of Bodily Restoration to keep you from dying due to Con loss, and you're golden.

[kardar233]

Warlock-wise, a WarClawBardLock is my favourite way to go.

Warlock6/Bard3/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion 8

Play an Elan, Synad or similar (if you can get a way to be a Dragon without LA, even better) and combine Eldritch Claws, IUS, Beast Strike and Rapidstrike with Inspire Courage optimization for ~10 attacks of ~40d6 each.

[Snowbluff]

Warlock-wise, a WarClawBardLock is my favourite way to go.

Warlock6/Bard3/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion 8

Play an Elan, Synad or similar (if you can get a way to be a Dragon without LA, even better) and combine Eldritch Claws, IUS, Beast Strike and Rapidstrike with Inspire Courage optimization for ~10 attacks of ~40d6 each.

Could you teach me the Dragonfire Inspiration sources and tricks? Also, could Snap Kick replace Rapid Strike if magazine material is not allowed? Is Rapstrike enen Dragon material, and is it in the Dragon Compendium?

[kardar233]

Rapidstrike isn't in Dragon Magazine, it's a feat from Draconomicon that allows you to make iteratives with natural attacks. It's restricted to Aberrations, Dragons, Magical Beasts, Elementals and Plant creatures so you'll need to be Dragon type or use an Elan or Synad race to qualify.

The Dragon material there is Eldritch Claws and Beast Strike, the latter of which allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage when you make unarmed strikes, effectively getting you another set of iteratives for your claws.

Snap Kick helps if you have Beast Strike, as does anything that gives increased attacks with unarmed strikes or natural attacks.

The Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook is right here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0). You'll want to use Dragonfire Inspiration for maximum D6s.

For a more defensive build you could swap the Bard for two levels of Harmonious Knight Paladin, giving you CHA to saves. Using Snowflake Wardance, you can be nearly SAD to Charisma.