[PF] Munchkin Combat tournament advice?

[jaybird]

Playgrounders,

My local Tabletop RPG club (of which I'm VP) is planning a Munchkin Combat tourney in a month or so, a no-holds-barred tournament testing the participants' luck, tactical skills, and op-fu. It's still under wraps so far, and right now, the rules are looking like:

- Anything in the Pathfinder SRD is permitted entry.
- Level 12 build, standard WBL, 20 point buy.
- Characters enter the arena with armour on and weapon readied. One buff may be active at the start of each combat.
- There will be two phases of the tournament. Phase one will be a Round Robin where all characters will fight all other characters in 1v1 combats. The 3 characters with the greatest number of victories will proceed to phase two. Phase two will be a gauntlet match where characters fight a series of characters created according to the same rules by the club board.
- Leaving the tournament area is grounds for instant loss. If both characters leave at the same time, the character initiating the action loses.

Anything I might be missing? Think high-op. The tournament area is likely to be an enclosed dome with a ground floor and a platform around the edge of the dome held up by pillars. Thanks guys.

[legomaster00156]

Well, what do you wish to play? Melee, ranged, or magic focus? Possibly a gish? Give us ideas, and we can give you a build.

[Curious]

I would recommend witch. Taking the flight hex means you don't need to spend an action buffing yourself to get out of the way, and your high level hexes provide some pretty awesome debuffs/SoDs.

EDIT: Also, you're a full caster.

[jaybird]

Gak! Okay, okay, sorry for the confusion guys - I'm one of the people planning this tournament, and I'm asking for advice on tourney rules :smallbiggrin:

[The_Scourge]

Terrain.
Flat plains are boring and offer no interesting combats. set one fight in a shifting sandstorm, another in a force wall maze, another on the back of a massive beast as it rampages through a city, another on the ground as the beast moves through. Be creative and your participants will be equally creative.

[Helldog]

Well, what do you wish to play? Melee, ranged, or magic focus? Possibly a gish? Give us ideas, and we can give you a build.

I would recommend witch. Taking the flight hex means you don't need to spend an action buffing yourself to get out of the way, and your high level hexes provide some pretty awesome debuffs/SoDs.

EDIT: Also, you're a full caster.


Gak! Okay, okay, sorry for the confusion guys - I'm one of the people planning this tournament, and I'm asking for advice on tourney rules :smallbiggrin:


http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7231/motivator0a40adf486331c.jpg

[The_Scourge]

Oh, you will also want to restrict additional stat blocks not provided by a class feature.
Ban leadership and the purchase of 1sp mercenaries. Otherwise things just get pointless.

[Mando Knight]

Stack the deck. Remember, the Great Cthulhu is in both the Munchkin Cthulhu and Star Munchkin decks. Kali from Clerical Errors is great for any pesky Clerics...

...Wait, wrong game. :smalltongue:

I'd put in a monster arena type fight. PvP has a somewhat different paradigm than party-vs-monsters combat. Dragons usually work well.

[SowZ]

Terrain.
Flat plains are boring and offer no interesting combats. set one fight in a shifting sandstorm, another in a force wall maze, another on the back of a massive beast as it rampages through a city, another on the ground as the beast moves through. Be creative and your participants will be equally creative.

If you do this, roll for the terrain before each fight for fairness sake. OR have everyones first fight be in terrain A, second fight be in terrain B, and so on. How will you prevent super-cheese builds?

[NamelessNPC]

I don't think they want to prevent super cheese...

[SowZ]

I don't think they want to prevent super cheese...

I don't mean typical super builds. I mean clear exploits. Maybe that is okay, though.

[jaybird]

I don't mean typical super builds. I mean clear exploits. Maybe that is okay, though.

We don't want Pun-Pun, shall we say :smalltongue: any suggestions as to Pathfinder exploits to watch out for?

[legomaster00156]

Pathfinder-only, from what I've seen, is quite well-written as far as preventing exploits goes.

[SowZ]

Pathfinder-only, from what I've seen, is quite well-written as far as preventing exploits goes.

Well, the fact that summoned creatures can't summon other creatures and Polymorph is more rigidly defined takes away quite a few problems.

[SamBurke]

I don't mean typical super builds. I mean clear exploits. Maybe that is okay, though.

Remember to watch out for Glorious Heat/Spark

[Infernalbargain]

Define WBL as the total market value of their possessions to prevent crafting cheese.

[The_Scourge]

Define WBL as the total market value of their possessions to prevent crafting cheese.

Oh god yes. Forgot about that nonsense.
Also probably a good idea to ban custom items and anything that requires "DM discretion".
Also Wish spamming.

[CTrees]

In the middle of a fight, Glorious Heat/Spark isn't going to be back. Six HP returned, for the cost of a standard action? Ew. That trick is strictly between combats.

Also Wish and Gate abuse, if PCs are capped at level twelve, isn't going to be easy.

I'd DEFINITELY say that this should either be limited to Paizo content only, or Paizo+Psionics Unleashed. That stuff is pretty well balanced, but there's a ton of third party material on the SRD which is not well balanced. Also, templates are easier to abuse (I'm playing a Young, Young, Young, Drunk Advanced Advanced Advanced Advanced creature!), and the rules for monsters with class levels are a little different - may want to restrict players to only things that have an "_____ Characters" entry. Variant tieflings get a bit problematic as well, and Drow Nobles should probably be flat banned, as, I'd think, should the Advanced Race Guide playtest.

EDIT: Actually... look at the Pathfinder Society errata. They cap at level twelve, and the list is... pretty extensive, on errata, bans, etc. That alone may be nearly enough for you (I have a personal grudge against that ruleset, so I'm not overly familiar with its current intricacies.

[Wings of Peace]

I'd probably ban that one second level spell that's basically a less cool Astral Projection just to be safe. Flesh something or skin something, I forget the name.

[Curious]

I'd probably ban that one second level spell that's basically a less cool Astral Projection just to be safe. Flesh something or skin something, I forget the name.

Skin Send.

[Z3ro]

Depending on your group and situation, you may want to consider a round/time limit. I once participated in a similar tournament, and we had one guy who basically spent the entire fight hiding, doing something like 1 or 2 damage a round for 45 minutes. After his second fight we instituted the time limit and solved that problem.

[Reltzik]

Agreed with most of the things said. In particular, I suggest at least some of the gauntlet be comprised of archetypical monsters or groups of archetypical monsters, perhaps CR 8-10, in a deliberate mix of monster roles. Have one mob of trash, a single bruiser, a blast-and-hide type, a dragon, etc. They're already getting their pvp mojo tested; now we see how dynamic and robust their builds are by putting them up against pvdm. Because some builds are better against mobs and other better against single-target, don't eliminate those who fall in the first round of the gauntlet; instead, put them in play for the second round and mark them down a point. They shouldn't lose just because their kryptonite was earlier on the program than others' kryptonite.

Will items and powers "reset" after each battle, or will players have to conserve their abilities? The former favors those classes that rely heavily on potent powers with a per-day limit (eg casters) while the latter favors those that can just keep going and going and going (fighters, rogues, etc.) I'd suggest something in between: Items and per-day spells "pop" back into the list 4 battles after they are used, including those used for buffs. (So use them in battle 1, and you can't use them in battles 2, 3, or 4, but they're available again in battle 5.)

Terrain, definitely a must. Jump, swim, climb, fly, even ride skill should all have opportunity for use in one arena or another. There should be cover, concealment, difficult terrain, and high/low ground. I'd also suggest scattering a few things like pit traps around just to keep them on their toes and reward those with the ability to deal with traps. Say they're allowed to wander around the arena prior to each fight and give them a behind-the-screen perception check to spot each traps; if they do, they know it's there and can use it to their tactical advantage.

Also, look at, say, WWF for possible applications of diplomacy and bluff skills. Come up with mechanics about who the crowd is cheering for, which can be modified by diplomacy and might, say, equate to a bard's +1 inspire courage. You can use diplomacy for a round to sway the opinion of the audience. Bluff can be used to trick the ref. So forth. The more elements of a character build that you make significant, the better.

Consider an Iron Chef theme for each combat. It's basically pvp... but each round of the round robin will have its "secret ingredient". Round 1, there's a maze. Round 2, all characters start on horseback (or another mount if part of their build). Round 3, there's a blizzard. Etc.

If you do do a time-limit, I suggest awarding a victory based on points (as in boxing) rather than calling it a draw. The "hide and do 2 damage per round with impunity" build is perfectly legit and should not be penalized.

[jaybird]

Lots of good advice, thanks a lot guys.

Regarding content, I am tempted to make the suggestion of Paizo+Psionics now, perhaps that would be a good idea.

WBL-mancy is right out, I'll remember to bring that up.

Power reset is something we've been talking about, and I'm thinking about something like this: after every fight, your items and HP refresh. After every two fights, your spells and PP refresh. Thoughts?

Terrain is something we're not sure about - simply due to complexity, as we only have so many people GMing. We'll probably have some basic terrain, but things like pit traps and the like probably aren't going to work.

So far, this tournament's looking PvP only, so no mobs.

Time limit IMO is a good idea, with secondary resolution based on points. I suppose whoever dealt the largest fraction of HP damage as well as taking into consideration debilitating status conditions.

[Reltzik]

I'd recommend against items refreshing every battle. That gives incentive to buy massively powerful items that you'd normally avoid because they're single-use, or to cast massively powerful spells with ugly material costs. Give items the slower refresh rate. (Think scrolls with level 9 spells and good ranks in UMD.)

EDIT: To put it in perspective, two scrolls of wish (which are pretty much game-enders) are easily in the price range of a level 12 character. Refreshing items every round of combat means that you can open combat with a Wish and have a backup in case you worded poorly, not that that's likely with munchkins. For that matter, items refreshing every TWO battles still gives him a wish to open every battle with.

[legomaster00156]

Consider instead every 4th battle (#4, #8, etc.) a "new day" for purposes of spell, PP, items, etc. At the start of a new day, your HP is also healed a number equal to your HD times your CON mod. Assuming a 16-CON Fighter at level 12, that would be healing 36 HP.
One-use items, like scrolls and potions, will never come back once used. This gives incentives to use them for emergencies only.

[jaybird]

Okay, fair enough. How about spells, PP, and items refreshing every 3 or 4 battles, and HP refreshes every battle? As for Phase 2, because they'll be facing fresh opponents, it seems only fair to refresh everything every battle in Phase 2.

[Reltzik]

Well, HP should definitely refresh between battles. If for no other reason than that 50% of the combatants will have been reduced to 0 HP.

[jmelesky]

Obviously, be familiar with the errata, and the not-yet-errata FAQ. Even with that, though, be prepared to make rulings, as there are still open questions on a bunch of stuff.

For example, the spell Mirror Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-strike) describes what happens to damage from attacks and critical hits, but not sneak attacks, nor any conditions or effects (poison, shocking grasp, or crippling critical, for example).

There are plenty of other things like that: spells and feats that have edge cases more likely to come up in the hands of optimizers. They'll need rulings if they're going to be used in a tournament.

[ericgrau]

Expendables should cost 5 times as much.
You should describe the arena terrain. Even perfectly flat hard packed dirt is a special description, because it nixes both entangle and stone to mud for example. No matter what you pick it will have some effect. The walls surrounding the area should also be briefly decribed, say 20' high x 3' thick stone wall.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Get rid of the Candle of Invocation and the Planar Binding line. I agree that you should make expendable items cost 5 times as much. Perhaps you should allow any buff to be up that would last 24 hours or longer? For instance, a vanilla 12th level wizard could cast an Extended Mage Armor as a second level spell and have it on literally all the time; it's like he's wearing an item that's especially vulnerable to dispel magic. Since Persistent Spell doesn't muck with durations in PF, I don't see this coming back to bite you.