Help with a Dervish

[gibbo88]

Hello playgrounders, I was looking for some help on a TWF Dervish. The plan I had going was Fighter 2/Scout 3/Dervish 3/Tempest 5/Dervish X. Since our group don't really have much powergaming I figured the power level would be ok, and I could use the skirmish damage during the Dervish dance so long as I move the 10 ft.

I could use some item suggestions too, but the Feats pre-reqs are pretty high.

[Feytalist]

Dervish was the ingredient of a previous Iron Chef Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576). You might find a few interesting ideas in there.

The builds are linked near the bottom of the first post.

[Darrin]

Hello playgrounders, I was looking for some help on a TWF Dervish. The plan I had going was Fighter 2/Scout 3/Dervish 3/Tempest 5/Dervish X. Since our group don't really have much powergaming I figured the power level would be ok, and I could use the skirmish damage during the Dervish dance so long as I move the 10 ft.


Are you really, really set on Tempest/Dervish? Most everyone on this board despises Tempest, and the best features of Dervish can be picked up via two feats: Travel Devotion and Oversize TWF. And 1d6 skirmish damage is barely worth 3 levels of Scout.

[gibbo88]

I'm not super set on it if there are other suggestions.

[DreadWarlock]

some say that swashbuckler lvl 3 feature to deal an aditional int mod dmg with weapon finesse weapons is a good combo with dervish

[Eldariel]

Ranger 2/Scout 4/Dervish 10 with Swift Hunter, or just Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish. Leave Tempest away; it makes more sense to start Dervish as soon as possible to both, get more Dervish Dances per day and to get bigger bonuses in Dervish Dance daily.

But yeah, I suggest either Ranger 2/Scout 4 or Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3 entry. Both are fine, but Swift Hunter is probably stronger.

[gibbo88]

I had really only had Tempest in there for its bonus to TWF. Definately not worth it I take it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dervish Handbook for Reference. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook)

[Darrin]

I had really only had Tempest in there for its bonus to TWF. Definately not worth it I take it.

The biggest problem with Tempest is most of the feats/features you get either can't be used with TWF or make you even worse at it.

A straight-up Fighter build can do everything a Dervish can do, and then some. Feats:

1) Travel Devotion, TWF, Oversized TWF
2) Dodge*
3) Travel Devotion
4) Mobility*
6) Travel Devotion, Improved TWF
8) Spring Attack* (same ECL a Dervish gets it)
9) Travel Devotion
10) Power Attack
12) Travel Devotion, Cleave (as Dance of Death, only you get it all the time)
etc.

(* = these are still lousy feats for TWF, particularly Spring Attack. Combat Reflexes + Double Hit is much more fun.)

Wear a taqiyah, put a couple skill points in Perform (Electric Slide), and put "Dervish" on your name tag.

Here's some other builds that can probably do the whole "dancing TWF fighter" thing just as well as a Dervish, but without any Tempest/Dervish levels:

Swift Hunter builds:

Race: Human, Silverbrow Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfing
1) Scout 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Bonus: Travel Devotion. Skirmish +1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Oversized TWF. Bonus: TWF.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish +1d6+1AC
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish +2d6+1AC.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish +2d6+2/+4d6+4AC.
9) Ranger 5. Feat: Travel Devotion. Skirmish +3d6+2AC/+5d6+4AC.
10) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Double Hit. Skirmish +4d6+2AC/+6d6+4AC.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish +4d6+3AC/+6d6+5AC.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Skirmish +5d6+3AC/+7d6+5AC.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish +5d6+4AC/+7d6+6AC.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion.
19) Ranger 13. Skirmish +6d6+4AC/+8d6+6AC.
20) Ranger 14.

If you prefer full BAB:
Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel devotion, Bonus: Combat Reflexes, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF
3) Ranger 3. Feat: Oversize TWF. Bonus: Endurance
4) Ranger 4.
5) Simple Fighter. Sneak Attack 1d6
6) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Travel Devotion.
7) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish +1d6
8) Highland Stalker 3.
9) Highland Stalker 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish +2d6+2AC.
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish +3d6+2AC.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF.
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Double Hit. Skirmish +3d6+3AC.
13) Highland Stalker 5.
14) Highland Stalker 6. Skirmish +4d6+3AC.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish +4d6+3AC/+6d6+5AC.
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish +5d6+3AC/+7d6+5AC.
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish +5d6+4AC/+7d6+6AC.
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Skirmish +6d6+4AC/+8d6+6AC.


Daring Outlaw build:

Race: Human, Silverbrow Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfling
1) Rogue 1. Feat: TWF. Bonus: Travel Devotion. SA 1d6.
2) Rogue 2.
3) Rogue 3. Feat: Oversize TWF. SA 2d6.
4) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
5) Swashbuckler 2.
6) Swashbuckler 3. Feat: Daring Outlaw. SA 3d6.
7) Rogue 4. SA 4d6.
8) Swashbuckler 4.
9) Swashbuckler 5. Improved TWF. SA 5d6.
10) Swashbuckler 6.
11) Swashbuckler 7. SA 6d6.
12) Swashbuckler 8. Feat: Travel Devotion.
13) Swashbuckler 9. SA 7d6
14) Swashbuckler 10.
15) Swashbuckler 11. Feat: Greater TWF. SA 8d6
16) Swashbuckler 12.
17) Swashbuckler 13. SA 9d6
18) Swashbuckler 14. Feat: Travel Devotion.
19) Swashbuckler 15. SA 10d6.
20) Swashbuckler 16.

Note: You could also squeeze in a level or two of fighter to free up some feat slots for Craven and Staggering Strike, which are generally considered mandatory for most Sneak Attack builds.

[DreadWarlock]

your second swift ambusher build not in fact a swift ambusher build cuz there is no scout levels in it so the feat swift ambusher is not going to work with highland stalker. its like saying daring outlaw lets you stack assassin and swashbuckler levels

[Darrin]

your second swift ambusher build not in fact a swift ambusher build cuz there is no scout levels in it so the feat swift ambusher is not going to work with highland stalker. its like saying daring outlaw lets you stack assassin and swashbuckler levels

Show me the text in the Swift Hunter feat that requires Scout levels. Likewise, show me the text in Daring Outlaw that says you can't use Assassin levels to qualify.

After that point, yes, you've got an argument that I'm violating the spirit of the rules, but I've got basic math on my side:

0 + X = X.

[DreadWarlock]

Your ranger and scout levels stack for the purpose of...
yes u can take the feat but it will give no benefit

[Dusk Eclipse]

Your Ranger levels (13) stack with your levels of Scout (0) for the purpose of Skirimish... 13+0=13 so he has 13 "virtual" scout levels.

Yes it is a bit or RAW trickery; but it works.

[DreadWarlock]

ooo ur thinking of having your ranger and none of your scout levels to stack for purpose of gaining some scout stuff without having scout at all. now i get what u did there
edit: got ninja'd

[Dr.Epic]

Name them Sam Rockwell.:smallwink:

[gorfnab]

I have had some luck with this Dervish build

Human Scout 5/ Ranger 2/ Dervish 10/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (decent as usual), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Improved Buckler Defense (nice AC boost, take a few levels earlier if necessary), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Flay Foe, or Nemesis (great for Arcane Hunter ACF)

The last level of Dervish can be dumped if necessary (A Thousand Cuts is 1/day anyways) for a level of Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian (take the Barbarian level at level 8 before entering Dervish). This then means you could take Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy) as your 18th level feat (or at 12 or 15 if you move Swift Hunter and GTWF around).

[kulosle]

Just to comment on the swift hunter build, you want all of your favored enemies to be ones that are immune to crits and arcane, of course. This helps prevent the average problem the dervish has with creatures with damage reduction. Another fix to that problem is power attack and acrobatic strike or a bard on your team or as a cohort. I have a bard dervish build sitting around somewhere that can do it on his own, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'll post it later. Also ask your gm to remove those awful feat prerequisites.