EVE Online [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Erloas

2012-01-05, 03:05 PM

But first you have to download 6GB data...zzz...which then extracts to 18GB...Code bloat much?! That is as much as 25 full lenght movies. Its not code bloat, it is content. If you look at it the executable, the code part of the game, is pretty small, its the art, models, and universe that takes up all the space. As an aside, the 50 hours taken to watch those 25 full length movies will get you through the learning curve of EVE, but no where near doing everything there is to do in the game.

And before you start to blame MY trusty computer, let me point out that it plays Half-life team fortress just fine. So both graphics and connection works.
Both Half Life 2 and Team Fortress 2 are really easy games to run. Saying your computer can run them is almost meaningless in terms of justifying that your computer isn't the problem. Given both of those games are technically newer then EVE, but CCP has completely overhauled the game several times now and it has higher system requirements then either of those games.

If you post any actual information about your system, we can at least narrow down some of the potential problems. The System Information and Display Device pieces of the Dxdiag.exe "save all information" page will give all the relevant information.

Is anyone playing this? Is it worth my time?
It depends. EVE has the most dedicated and loyal players of any game I've ever seen. It also has a huge number of people that can't stand the game. It is a very niche game, and it has a fairly small target demographic. The two choices are either you will love the game or you will hate it and we have no where near enough information about what you like to even try to call that.

Personally, I tried the game years ago (has it really been 5-6 years?) and really wanted to like it but found it just wasn't the right game for me. It is the only MMO that I played, quit, and came back to, though I quit again. The death penalty was just too high for what I wanted in a PvP game. And more so then any other PvP game I've played, if you want to do "end game" PvP it requires having a dedicated corp (guild) and a decent amount of time to dedicate to the game. There is a lot of non-PvP to do too, but it wasn't really what I wanted to do.
I've wanted to give it another try more then a few times, but just don't have the time any more for MMOs.

edit:
I'm sure you've seen the memeish EVE learning curve?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2335016192_6003c39c4c_z.jpg
I've heard its gotten better over the years, but its a game that takes some research to figure out how things work.

Miklus

2012-01-05, 06:05 PM

Well, I googled my problem and it seems that about 1 billion people where having the exact same problem. My graphics cards is old and there are no newer drivers for it. It seems that this game just does not work propperly with my type of card (PX7600 GT).

I guess I could buy a new graphics card...I have replaced pretty much everything else in my comp since i bought it.

But why must the game be so graphics intensive? And why have the developers STILL not fixed this?

EDIT: Yes, I saw the "learning curve" while googeling, LOL!

EDIT EDIT: Now the GITP server is giving me the "The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later." message. I hate computers and they hate me!

Erloas

2012-01-05, 07:05 PM

While it is on the low end, the card should work. How recent are your drivers though? The newest drivers for that card on XP is from October 2011.

Not sure exactly what the problem is to help search for it, but I did find one thing. Change the link to the game to include the /nolightfx parameter to the game, so the link would look like
"C:\Program Files (x86)\CCP\EVE\eve.exe" /nolightfx

The other common problem with that series of card seems to be AA related, which could be forced on in the drivers even if they are disabled in the game itself.

As for a new video card, might be worth doing. You can get a significantly faster card for not that much, even a $60-75 card should give you noticeable improvement in any game you play, even if you never end up playing EVE.

Miklus

2012-01-06, 03:46 PM

Thank you for your help, But I am now the proud owner of a GeForce 560. Yeah, I solved the problem by throwing money at it. I needed a new card anyway. I threw it in Ye Olde Bucket, plays Half-Life 2 just fine. HL2 is kind of my test game, you see.

This card is so badass, it needs TWO power cables, apparently. It eats 500W...

So! "Incompatible protocol" is the newest insult that EVE online is throwing at me. But I guess it says that to everyone right now...?

Miklus

2012-01-06, 07:05 PM

EVE is working fine now. I even completed a mission. Although in my haste I forgot one thing: My spaceship! I was flying around in my capsule.

You where not kidding with the learning curve. Any help would be good at this point.

NEO|Phyte

2012-01-06, 07:27 PM

Worira

2012-01-06, 07:29 PM

Fly to 0.0sec space immediately, it is full of kind and compassionate individuals who will assist you in your future space-career

bring all your possessions

Erloas

2012-01-06, 07:52 PM

Yes, do not fly what you can't afford to loose is the cornerstone to surviving EVE.

There are (or at least were) a number of helpful people playing the game, there are also a lot out just to grief other players, its hard to tell the difference between them at times. People tend to not be too helpful to new players because the history of the game is littered with the fallen corporations that were brought down by someone from the inside that got greedy or was a plant from a rival corp. People spending months and months playing an alt and acting like a new player to get high up into a corp to then sabotage the corp or just feed information back to their main corp.
Of course there are also people that will give you what would seem like a lot of money or good items, simple because for them its almost a meaningless amount but it is a lot of a new player.

You'll probably spend a while in the starter ship, but you always get one for free, so it will be less of an issue when you die with it.
If your general plan for the game is either joining a corp for PvP or doing missions, you can probably find a guide for the first skills to look at training for that. Some people jump to the biggest ship they can as fast as they can, but if you are going to PvP, early on its virtually always better to stay in a frigate for as long as you can and get your skills up with that first.
And if your plan is to mine (can be good money, but more then a bit tedious) then you train in a completely different direction, and can probably find guides on that as well.

As for combat, range is everything, you'll want to find the best range for your guns and orbit at that range. Usually starting out long range weapons are the best option, but short range gets stronger with more skills and faster ships. Always be ready to run, have a place to jump to to save yourself, and the more in-line with the direction you are facing the faster you can get away. Don't wait too long to run if things start looking bad, because you go down quick once you start to go.

Don't drop all of your money into an upgraded ship or equipment. Starting out you should get all of the equipment you need for destroying enemy ships, and once you have enough to buy a ship a few times over then buy the ship. Once you get the hang of things you can buy things without quite as much saved up, but you will loose ships starting out. Probably don't want to go to less then about 0.8 systems for a while, probably stay in 1.0 until you've got one of the better frigates.

What race did you pick? Some are better at shield tanking while others armor tank. Do what the ship is good at.

Really I don't know how much stuff has changed to give specific advice. Although the learning skills are highly useful later, they aren't a worth while investment in your time until you know you want to stay with the game. Start with your primary weapon type and frigate and tanking skills first, then some of the fitting skills. Its not worth the time to get to lvl 5 in a skill unless its a requirement for something else you need, and you'll learn a lot more about the game before thats an issue. Training a lot of low level skills up a point or two while you are on is the best thing to do when you first start, and when you log off for the day set a long skill training.

pffh

2012-01-06, 11:17 PM

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-06, 11:38 PM

When playing EVE, play like you're an undercover agent operating in hostile territory for an agency that'll leave you to the wolves if it's convenient to them. Oh, and your handler may or may not be working for the enemy.

Trust no one. Believe nothing. Sleep with a gun under your pillow.

Have fun. :smallamused:

Brother Oni

2012-01-07, 04:31 AM

As for combat, range is everything, you'll want to find the best range for your guns and orbit at that range.

Be very careful about this.

The turret mechanics are rather complex - the closer you are, the harder it can be for your guns to follow the target (tracking), but the further you are away, your guns may not have the range (optimal + fall off).

There's a very good tracking guide (http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf) that's still applicable in explaining the basics (although the actual equation has changed somewhat).

Alternately, use missiles and the only thing you have to worry about is whether they're within range. :smalltongue:

What race did you pick? Some are better at shield tanking while others armor tank. Do what the ship is good at.

I agree with this - at first buy and train the skills that are most suitable for your race.

Be aware though that each race doesn't have racial bonuses like other games and that you can fly any races' ships once you have the skills. If you're flying Gallente for example and like the look of Amarr ships, you can train up the skills to fly those instead.

Bear in mind that each race's ships usually focus on a particular defensive system (armour or shields) and weapons system (hybrids, projectiles, lasers, missiles), so jumping between difference races can mean only a few extra skills or lots of extra skills.

Although the learning skills are highly useful later, they aren't a worth while investment in your time until you know you want to stay with the game.

Learning skills have been removed from the game - everybody gets a flat +10 to their stats now.
Note that stats do absolutely nothing except dictate how fast you train skills.

Start with your primary weapon type and frigate and tanking skills first, then some of the fitting skills.

Further to this, try following the certificate system if you're absolutely lost in what to train next.

Its not worth the time to get to lvl 5 in a skill unless its a requirement for something else you need, and you'll learn a lot more about the game before thats an issue. Training a lot of low level skills up a point or two while you are on is the best thing to do when you first start, and when you log off for the day set a long skill training.

I agreed with Erloas. Due to the way the skill system works, you can get from levels 1 to 4 in about 11% of the time it takes to go from level 4 to level 5, so only train a skill to level 5 if you need it as a pre-requisite to something else, or you're trying to squeeze that little bit extra performance.

Erloas

2012-01-07, 10:38 AM

Something that hasn't been mentioned. Always check WHERE what you're buying is! A popular scam is placing "to good to be true" deals on items in 0.4 or lower systems to trick people into buying them and while they try to get the item they bought all the gates to the system will be camped.

I should know I've placed my fair share of ravens for 10 million lower then the market price.

Along the same lines, when traveling don't go afk at any time if you're traveling through any area where you can be attacked, 0.5 and above is safe as long as you aren't in a corp that is at war, though its still possible to get ganked in higher sec space its usually not worth it for the attackers unless they have a very specific reason.
And get paranoid about any travel in lower sec space, check for ships killed in a sector on your map any time you are going to pass through one. There are a few low sec jumps between what are otherwise safe areas and between areas of high commerce (systems with good agents, capital world systems, systems with a lot of manufacturing) that pirates will often camp to catch people.

Learning skills have been removed from the game - everybody gets a flat +10 to their stats now.
Note that stats do absolutely nothing except dictate how fast you train skills.Yes, but the rate at which you train skills is vital to character advancement.

I don't know how things have changed culturally in the game, but I was always partial to the destroyers. Mostly because my goal was T2 frigates but I couldn't really afford to fly them, so I moved to the destroyers because they could handle (in PvE at least) almost anything a cruiser could handle but let me keep building up my skills in frigate class weapons and equipment, they were also much cheaper to buy and outfit compared to cruisers.

Is so much of the T2 equipment still prohibitively expensive? I'm sure the T2 blueprints were expanded some since I played 5 years ago? Or do a few big alliances still have the T2 monopoly on the better ones?

Now I'm really wanted to check out the game again and see how things have changed... but I know I don't have time for an MMO and haven't been playing enough of anything to make it worth while to pick up a subscription and don't have the time to farm for PLEX cards.

pffh

2012-01-07, 10:57 AM

Now I'm really wanted to check out the game again and see how things have changed... but I know I don't have time for an MMO and haven't been playing enough of anything to make it worth while to pick up a subscription and don't have the time to farm for PLEX cards.

If you can find some people to do incursions with you can easily make 100mil per hour so a couple of those a month will easily set you up with a plex.

Brother Oni

2012-01-07, 11:20 AM

Yes, but the rate at which you train skills is vital to character advancement.

Oh, I fully agree, but I didn't want him to get mislead into thinking "How well my character shoots depends on his Perception plus turret skills".

[Snip stuff about destroyers]

Destroyers are great for their intended role - shooting down frigates.

T2 destroyers are even nastier pieces of work with their interdiction module (can put up an AOE warp interdiction field in 0.0, or a single target infinite point scramble), but they're very specialised pieces of kit. Try and use them for anything they're not intended for and you usually end up a cropper.

[T2 equipment]

With the advent of Invention (you can make low efficiency BPCs of T2 stuff out of T1 BPCs and R&D agent items), T2 prices have generally dropped.

Pffh has more up to date information about the game than I have (I stopped playing shortly before Incursion), since I hit my original goal and lost interest in the game.

Miklus

2012-01-07, 12:58 PM

Thanks, folks. I'm paying the Caldari race. I'm more attracted to the economic side of the game than shooting it out. I'm hoping that I can pull off some kind of ponzi sheme that wrecks the entire galactic economy. Barring that I could settle for some simple stock marked manipulation. :smallbiggrin:

But so far I think I will just do some more fetch-and-carry missions until I can afford a miner. Then I will stay in high-sec until I have some decent capital.

Someone contacted me and tried to convince me to make a new account. Then they would get a invite-a-friend plex bonus that they would then sell and share the profit with me. Whatever. :smallconfused:

Murska

2012-01-07, 01:27 PM

I trust you told him sure, but only if he gives the down payment first, and then pocketed the cash and left?

Erloas

2012-01-07, 01:40 PM

Its possible, I know they have refer a friend bonuses, but I don't know what they are. And of course if you are actually new and have no real time invested into the game then its not much of a loss to start a new trial account.

It takes quite a lot of training to get into a mining barge, but you can get into the cruiser level mining ship, the osprey, fairly quickly. Which is where I would start for a an industrial character. I know its possible to play the markets, but it takes some capital to get to the point of making any real money at it, so you kind of have to start somewhere else to get a money base.

I'm not sure what changes they have made to the cargo containers over the years... but the general idea before was to get your osprey set up to mine, mine into a can in space until you had enough to fill your industrial ship once or twice, then dock the cruiser, get the industrial ship and run it all back to base in 1-2 trips. Of course there was also ore thief who would simply take their industrial ships and steal ore that other people have mined and stuck in can. They had a system were you could kill someone that took stuff for your can without security killing you, even in high sec space. But I'm not sure what changes have happened since then.

There were always corps looking for people that wanted to mine or help mine, you run either a miner, industrial ship, or defense ship and a group of people work together to mine an area, with the defender killing the rats, the industrial ship running material to the station and the miner(s) mining as fast as they can without stopping.

Otherwise you end up having to stop and switch ships as rats show up and cargo boxes get full.
Of course the lower sec you go the more often rats show up, and the more powerful the rats are (even a battleship will die to rats in frigates if its set up for mining), but also the better minerals to mine are too. The asteroids in the 1.0 to 0.8 systems are just not worth anything so its really slow to make money.

In lower sec space, where all the good minerals are, and other players become an issue, sometimes a cruisers worth at a time is worth it because you don't want to loose 45 minutes worth of mining because a real pirate (player) shows up. And when you are mining you always set your ship to face the station you want to go to so you can jump the instant someone jumps into the belt you are in and always watch the local players in the system screen and pay attention to absolutely everyone coming and going from the system. There will be other people in any given system doing PvE (mining, rating, missions) and you'll learn who they are as opposed to the ones out looking to gank people. The busier the system the more likely it is to attract pirates and there will be some just doing routes along areas looking for people not paying attention.

edit:
Really this has gotten me really interested in the game again. I think I'm going to, despite my better judgment, download the game and see what has happened.
I think I'm going to be sad to find out that the majority of my expensive stuff, T2 frigates, Battleships, etc. are all probably going to be in 0.0 space controlled by alliances I've never heard of. I don't remember if I bothered to move my stuff to a safer area prior to quiting before. The alliance had gone through a lot just before I left so I might have moved most of my stuff out of deep 0.0 space before leaving.
At very least I should have enough money to at least get back into something basic and if I can't get to my stuff, at least try to sell it remotely for a bit of cash.

I'll be Erloas there too. I'm Minmatar. Probably won't have it installed until tonight or tomorrow.

LostEnder

2012-01-07, 02:52 PM

I played EVE for years, but stopped quite a while ago, so I'll avoid specifics somewhat.

If you're going to be interested in PVP, and especially nullsec PVP, I strongly recommend that you train up to the battecruiser/medium weapon combo for your race (this would be the Drake and Heavy Missiles for the Caldari, we don't talk about the Moa) this will allow you to do enough PVE content (highsec missions used to be the standard, but maybe not anymore) to fund the rest of your newbie career.

Just getting into the ship is not enough however, do NOT neglect the support skills like navigation, weapon bonuses, tank bonuses, etc. Going to 5 usually isn't needed at this point, but 4 is typically worth it.

You can grind up standings for missions, or start learning the markets and doing some trades between systems while these skills develop. The point is to ensure you have a ship and income source that you can fall back on to make more isk. You can find some fun highsec mission corps out there with a little luck, but beware of corp taxes.

The next step is to train up your skills to get into the T2 Interceptor class. This is, in my opinion, one of the most useful and fun ship classes in the entire game. Inties get to be the ships that scout ahead of the fleet, and are usually responsible for searching out and tackling targets. It's a great way to contribute at low skill points, and is a rush like nothing else I've found in gaming. For success, prioritize electronics (web/disruptor), speed/agility, and fitting skills in addition to the required ship skills. Being able to fly inties is usually a good door into 0.0 space corps, since you're showing that you can contribute and have your head on straight, but it really varies on a case by case basis.

One other thing that ought to be mentioned: if they still exist, Eve University is legit, and can be really helpful to new players, look them up if you think you want to really get into EVE.

Erloas

2012-01-07, 04:33 PM

So I reactivated and logged in. I've got a decent 450M isk in cash. 2 cruisers, and a battlecruiser in the system I'm in, which is luckily a 0.3 system not terribly far from secure space. I've also got a t2 frigate not too far away, as well as a couple fast frigates in my current base.

My Battleship however is 47 jumps away, about as far into 0.0 space as you can get, and of course when I turn on "avoid systems where pod killing has happened recently" I can't reach it at all.
I *might* be able to reach the BS with a fast ship, but I kind of doubt I would make back alive with it... so I'll probably just list on the market and get what I can for it.

And its nice that I've got 1.8M skill points available to use, but I'm at such a loss as to what my plans are at this point that I'm just going to hold onto them for a bit.

My last messages were from November 2006, so that is apparently when I played last... we'll see how much I remember in terms of actually playing instead of just the concepts.

pffh

2012-01-07, 04:58 PM

I too recently started playing again and apparently tech 3 cruisers are all the rage right now so you might use those free points towards one of those.

Worira

2012-01-07, 05:53 PM

The new player referral bonus is indeed a PLEX, by the way. If you're still on a trial account, I would actually recommend making a new account under the referral of someone trustworthy and splitting the money, since last I checked PLEXes go for about a third of a billion spacebucks, which is huge when you're just starting off. The "trustworthy" part is absolutely vital, though, since there's really nothing stopping them from taking the money keeping it.

pffh

2012-01-07, 05:56 PM

Aye you could make around 200 millions by doing it with say someone like me :smallcool:

Miklus

2012-01-08, 07:13 AM

But I just spend forever tweaking my characters nose! I'm keeping this account.

I'm still on the tutorials. I got my Condor shot out from under me by tutorial space pirates :smallannoyed: But I can afford a Merlin now, so they are going to get what is comming to them. Too bad I have to wait and learn a new skill just to fly it.

Just an idea: Would it be possible to take a mining barge and fit it with max number of those high-damage-but-short-range cannons and a passive targeting system? Make a "sleeper" so to speak, a mining vessel that is not. Then cruise around waitning for some pirates to come and stick you up. Let them get real close and then... That would be hillarious.

Or would the pirates just gank you from long distance, no questions asked?

Erloas

2012-01-08, 11:01 AM

The short answer is... no, its not really possible, at least with a hauler or mining barge. They just don't really have the slots to fit many weapons and they aren't really durable enough for the task. You could shoot back, but probably don't have the firepower to break the tank on any reasonable PvP frigate.

What you could do though, is bait and trap with 2 people. If you set it up with 1-2 webs, a warp disrupter, and as much tanking ability as you can, when they get close you web them down (to keep them from running out of your disrupter range), the warp disrupter keeps them from jumping out, and the tank keeps you alive long enough for a friend to jump in right to you and kill them.

Of course you can do that with a number of ships. There are a lot of people that mine in battleships, and the mining cruiser is very commonly used by newer players, both of which can be fitted out much better for the task, and don't even need a second person. If you are sitting in an asteroid belt with a can and a few mining drones out, people will assume you are mining and not set up for combat.

Even then though, it depends how well equipped the pirates are, if they're going with the cheap disposable frigate option you can probably take them out, if they are well equipped, especially with a t2 frigate or cruiser they'll be more then ready to take out quite a lot.

I'm still not really sure what my plan is. I'm still relearning the game, the salvaging and structure slots on the ships are new and there are a decent number of new skills to check out. Its kind of funny, I can fly the t3 battlecruisers but I can't fly a lot of the t2 cruiser and higher ships. Although with my floating skill points (I assume from the learning change) I could get into almost anything not capitol class pretty quickly, I just can't really afford to. I think my task for the time being is to find a corp and get used to the combat and controls again.

pffh

2012-01-08, 11:09 AM

If you want something cheap and easy to fly while getting back into the pvp game the thorax is always useful and fun. Throw a mwd on it, some blasters, a web and scrambler and minor armor tank you you're good to go. I keep a stock of these in random systems all around low and close to low sec.

In another news why are there no non-high heel boots for female characters? I want my capsuler to wear practical boots! :smallfurious:

Erloas

2012-01-08, 12:21 PM

Seeing as how I am 100% devoted to flying minmatar ships, a gallente cruiser would be of little use to me.

Probably go to missions for a little bit, with either my thrasher (which I love) or take one of my cruisers and set it up.

But since I don't have a feel for mission to ship requirements yet I'll probably go back to an easy agent to get a feel for things and move up.

JusticeZero

2012-01-09, 02:37 AM

Do some research on how people use their ships. Oh, also don't aim for the biggest ship because "it's the biggest". Bigger does not necessarily mean better. Bigger just means different. If you like PVP, the plan for learning is to get about twenty of a common pvp frigate - a cheap one - and go get in trouble till you run out. Then a lot of the seasoned pilots end up flying the souped up versions of those little ships.

The learning curve is NOT a cliff. EVE is a sandbox. People come in expecting to have their path unfold in front of them, then freak out when it doesn't. You have to decide on a course of action and do the research on how it works. If you have the ability to size up a world and decide "I'd like to learn how to do X", then do a bit of research and start doing X, the learning curve is very managable.

Since trade was mentioned, you'll probably end up wandering the dancing lights of Jita at some point; it's the equivalent of New York City for EVE, the center of the economic world. Expect to use Google a fair bit while you learn things like "What is a Donchian Channel?"

Lots of people get so much into the economics that they never even bother to undock a ship once they've found a good place to work out of. They contract their trucking out to other players and watch the markets like a hawk, buying and selling, or buying materials and making them into shiny new ships and ammo and stuff to get blown up. Others research blueprints to make better things (Rumor has it that this will at some point be revamped completely, so buyer beware), or buying ore from all the miners and processing it into metals, or whatever.

Other people do different things. Mining isn't the most lucrative career out there by a long shot, but a lot of people like doing it and go out in coordinated fleets of huge mining and support ships to carve through entire asteroid belts. If you go into the lawless bits of space, you can find gas clouds and scoop those with special mining gear to get the ingredients for illegal chemical enhancements which are popular with some pilots. Also in lawless space is better ore. Now, some people land colonies on planets in order to get resources from them. Wrecked spaceships can be salvaged for parts for certain gear (which industrialists can make with blueprints).

Some people use space probes to explore space for hidden treasures like better-than-normal asteroid clusters, hidden treasure, or difficult mission sites.

Some people go into piracy. "Your money or your ship!" Others fight with their corporation, and get paid for their specialized skills.

Still others do missions for NPC agents, get good at them, and make money hand over fist from it.

Really you can do pretty much whatever you want to do. Just get an idea in your head, do a bit of research, and start learning the ropes and soon you'll be rubbing shoulders with the best in your field - since the skills actually cap out pretty quickly in a given thing, a specialist can get as good as an ancient player pretty quickly in their chosen field.

Erloas

2012-01-09, 01:21 PM

The learning curve is NOT a cliff. EVE is a sandbox. People come in expecting to have their path unfold in front of them, then freak out when it doesn't. You have to decide on a course of action and do the research on how it works. If you have the ability to size up a world and decide "I'd like to learn how to do X", then do a bit of research and start doing X, the learning curve is very manageable.
EVE is definitely a sandbox, and that does cause some problems, but it does also have a pretty big learning curve as well.
Part of that learning curve is the penalty for failure, you don't get to learn without taking a pretty big hit. A bit part of that is combat, whether thats just getting in over your head in PvE or unknowingly passing through low sec space. Even the learning curve of "don't trust anyone" takes a while to learn, because its so easy to screw over another player quickly if they don't know better. At least the new market system that tells you regional average values makes it a bit harder to accidentally buy a shuttle for 100x their normal cost.

And thats on top of the unusual skill system, the complex ship configuration system, the 1000s of different options, and a combat system that is (at least as far as I've seen) entirely unique.
Given the certificate system makes the "what skills do I need" part of things easier, and I've heard the new player intro is significantly better then when I started, and the pop-up warnings let you know more of what to look out for, so they have made it easier.
But its the only MMO (and only a few other games, X3 comes to mind, but Civ is pretty complex too) where "researching the game on the internet" is almost mandatory to get stuff figured out.

A few questions for existing players.
Is it possible to find manufacturing and lab space open anywhere in none alliance controlled 0.0 space? I never found any before and not seeing any now either. Is there a better way then to check a dozen systems, see time remaining on slots and check them when they are scheduled to end and see if you can snag it before someone else? I think before someone could buy a slot pretty much indefinitely, is there a chance to snag one now?

Is there still a combat log somewhere to check messages such as damage, etc? It used to be right in the message window but I can't seem to find it anywhere now. I'm sure its something simple I'm overlooking.

Getting a feel for combat again doing missions. The level 3 agents are pretty much cruiser level right, and level 4 are mostly BS level? (or of course the t2 of the next size down).

With the new Warp to 0 option... what do you think the likelihood of sneaking a tempest out of deep 0.0 space... probably have a decent tank, I'm pretty sure I have some warp core stabilizers in the base and a jump clone there too, probably a lot of potential loot to equip with. And if you were to make that run think its best to focus on speed and agility or tank... as I know I can't fight my way out. And what would be the best time to make that run, with such an international player base, when is the "low" time? Just before or just after downtime?

And last, but not least, anyone in a corp that is looking for new players? Casual, doubt I'll be playing a lot, mostly Tuesday nights, and Saturday and Sunday morning, on US mountain time. Mission running or PvP is most likely. No problem with 0.0 space. Can't currently afford to PvP in more then a cruiser, or t2 frigate, and an interdictor probably isn't more then a few days away if I wanted to do that. Not adversed to helping with mining, most likely as rat defense, as I suck at mining and can't use more then the most basic haulers.

pffh

2012-01-09, 01:50 PM

Janwin

2012-01-09, 01:55 PM

A few questions for existing players.
Is it possible to find manufacturing and lab space open anywhere in none alliance controlled 0.0 space? I never found any before and not seeing any now either. Is there a better way then to check a dozen systems, see time remaining on slots and check them when they are scheduled to end and see if you can snag it before someone else? I think before someone could buy a slot pretty much indefinitely, is there a chance to snag one now?

In high sec? Not really that likely just by sheer volume and people who have set up scripts to automatically handle their production and research. You're better off trying to find an unused moon and setting up your own manufacture/research POS. Then you never have to compete.

Is there still a combat log somewhere to check messages such as damage, etc? It used to be right in the message window but I can't seem to find it anywhere now. I'm sure its something simple I'm overlooking.

Yes. There should be an Accessories or Log button to the left side of the screen in the icons area. I don't remember the exact name, and being at work I can't look. But it's there. In a sub level.

Getting a feel for combat again doing missions. The level 3 agents are pretty much cruiser level right, and level 4 are mostly BS level? (or of course the t2 of the next size down).

Level 1 tends to be frigs. Level 2 is cruisers. Level 3 is BCs/BSes. Level 4 is BSes (group, as I recall). Though it's been a long time since I've done missions. Ratting in 0.0 brings in more than enough money for me.

With the new Warp to 0 option... what do you think the likelihood of sneaking a tempest out of deep 0.0 space... probably have a decent tank, I'm pretty sure I have some warp core stabilizers in the base and a jump clone there too, probably a lot of potential loot to equip with. And if you were to make that run think its best to focus on speed and agility or tank... as I know I can't fight my way out. And what would be the best time to make that run, with such an international player base, when is the "low" time? Just before or just after downtime?

Depends on where it is and how busy the space is. Without knowing where your ship is (PM me the location if you want (normally, I wouldn't recommend this (Akbar: It's a trap!)) and I can probably give you a better idea) it's hard to know what your likelihood of success is. There are some area where there's not much presence aside from carebears, and others that are camped 23/7. IF you were to make a run (and I am not really encouraging this), you'll want to figure out what alliances own space between where your ship is and empire, and what time zone they tend to be active in. For example, Goons are primarily American, so you'd not want to go during US prime time. NC. and Raiden. are primarily European, so you'd not want to go during Euro prime time. While Red Alliance et. all are primarily Russian, so you wouldn't want to go during Russian prime time.

One thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be able to pod yourself and wind up wherever your ship is. Your clone rights won't still be there if you don't own the space. So unless you have a jump clone in the station it's at, you're probably SOL anyway, and will need to either contract it or hope someday you'll return there to get it.

If you do decide to make a run...fit a cloak.

And last, but not least, anyone in a corp that is looking for new players? Casual, doubt I'll be playing a lot, mostly Tuesday nights, and Saturday and Sunday morning, on US mountain time. Mission running or PvP is most likely. No problem with 0.0 space. Can't currently afford to PvP in more then a cruiser, or t2 frigate, and an interdictor probably isn't more then a few days away if I wanted to do that. Not adversed to helping with mining, most likely as rat defense, as I suck at mining and can't use more then the most basic haulers.

Nope. You wouldn't be allowed in. No offense. :0/

JusticeZero

2012-01-09, 02:43 PM

But its the only MMO (and only a few other games, X3 comes to mind, but Civ is pretty complex too) where "researching the game on the internet" is almost mandatory to get stuff figured out.I always research my games on the internet. That's how I get ahead of the masses of people who are bumbling around and generally only making significant progress because the game doesn't have any mechanism for them to lose anything.

..what do you think the likelihood of sneaking a tempest out of deep 0.0 space...?
The goal is just to get a Tempest battleship into deep 0.0? (Presuming you have a place to PARK it already lined up..)

Right before or after downtime both work; population curves look similar on both sides of the downtime. Put on warb stabilizers (stabs) and a good afterburner or microwarp drive. If people start shooting at you, it will be after they warp scramble and web you, so the main things you need for travel fitting is acceleration/maneuverability, warp stabilizers, and a propulsion mod you can turn on or off. You're in a battleship. It takes a lot of killing to put one of those down, and if they sink a tackle on you (and they will have tackle available, since that's the FIRST thing a PVP pilot learns to do!) they will have all the time in the world to call for reinforcements and chew through your tank.

When you go through a gate, first align to your destination while you're still gate cloaked. For safety sake, something other than the gate, if you're on a potentially well traveled route - interdictors might be in the middle. The sun is a too-popular place to go and pirates love it; planets might have POSes at them that might be guarded, belts might have a lot of traffic, so use your best judgement; don't warp to right next to the thing in any case. If you were being cautious and came through earlier and set up safe spots (see below), one of those is best.

Pop your MWD/AB and start your warp, then while you're accelerating turn the AB/MWD off so that your max speed drops and you hit warp faster. (There's a technique to do this involving a cloak too, which I need to look up and play with.)

This is because your ship, like a DeLorean, goes into warp at a certain speed - but that speed is a significant fraction of your CURRENT maximum speed. One of the first lessons a tackler learns is to always use a warp scramble on a ship before the web, because when the web hits it reduces the max speed of the ship targeted. If they're trying to get to warp, that change can suddenly bring them instantly to warping speed and poof, they're gone. With an afterburner or MWD, both your acceleration and your max speed go way up. When you turn them off, they both go back down, but your current velocity remains; if it's fast enough to hit warp now, you're gone.

Then go to the second gate from there. If there is a planet or something within 14 AU of the gate out, you can use your directional scanner from there to see if there's a bunch of suspicious looking stuff hanging out by it - align to the gate, scanner max range (which is 14.something AU, hit an oodle of numbers and take whatever it drops down to as max), narrowest scan.

Go via a strategically less important gate. Those will be farther from a trade hub, nowhere near Jita, and preferably need to go through some low security space (through which all the same things apply). Make sure it isn't a tight channel of systems but rather a mesh so you aren't going through a natural chokepoint.

For even better safety, enlist someone to poke through gates ahead of you. Alas, there is no way to find what's on the other side of gates without someone being there to go look.

How to make safe spots:
Come through in something cheap like an Ibis or a Condor or some such thing. Warp to something. Anything really. Open your overview. Drop a bookmark somewhere in the middle when you're warping. Now warp to something else, then warp to the bookmark you set. Drop another bookmark in midwarp. That second bookmark will be off of the travel lane of anything as a result. The best safe spots will be at least 15 AU from anything else, and not on the central orbital plane.

This point will be about as safe of a spot as you can get in unsafe space. You're not SAFE, since someone can still scan you down with combat probes, but most ships don't carry an expanded probe launcher. If you are at least 15 AU from anything, nobody can find you on a directional scanner. Even if someone is being a bit obsessive with a d-scan, they probably won't look up or down, if only because it adds so much volume to scan.

Other bookmarks to set in an "unsafe" (lowsec, 0.0, or wormhole) system include:
station warp points - put a bookmark close to a station, inside the regular docking radius, so that you can warp to it instead of 'to station' and dock instantly
station camp bookmark - when you leave a station in a cheap or fast ship, check to see if you're aligned X/Y/Z and fly straight along that alignment for about a thousand kilometers or so, then put a bookmark. If you later come out of the station into a bad situation, warp to that bookmark - you will already be aligned to warp and moving (because the station kicked you out) so you'll immediately escape.
gate check - fly a couple hundred kilometers away from the gate in some random and non-meaningful direction and drop a bookmark. Warp to that point, then look over at the gate to see if it's camped on your side. If it's clear, warp to the gate and jump. A variant is the same, but this time fly about 2,000 km away from the gate so that you'll be out of sight of it. Use your directional scanner on the gate from there.

Brother Oni

2012-01-09, 03:02 PM

When you go through a gate, first align to your destination while you're still gate cloaked.

Have they changed the mechanics? As soon as your ship starts moving, you lose your gate cloak, which includes aligning.

Pop your MWD/AB and start your warp, then while you're accelerating turn the AB/MWD off so that your max speed drops and you hit warp faster. (There's a technique to do this involving a cloak too, which I need to look up and play with.)

Again, unless they've changed the mechanics, the only cloak that works while you're trying to warp is the covert ops one, which can only be fitted to force recons, covert ops frigates, stealth bombers and blockade runners.

If done correctly, the warp and cloak technique (basically align, hit MWD/AB, cloak, deactivate MWD/AB) means you're only visible for a fraction of a second (provided nobody gets within 2km of you), so you're well away before they can find you.

The only problem is that you have to wait for your propulsion module to cycle off before your maximum speed drops (10 seconds for a MWD, 10+ for AB depending on your AB skill), which can be a very nerve racking period of time. :smalltongue:

Erloas

2012-01-09, 03:08 PM

Depends on where it is and how busy the space is. Without knowing where your ship is (PM me the location if you want (normally, I wouldn't recommend this (Akbar: It's a trap!)) and I can probably give you a better idea) it's hard to know what your likelihood of success is.

If you do decide to make a run...fit a cloak.
Yeah, I'll have to wait until I get home to check the system name, I think its
in what is normally considered the "top" of the map.
Which, looking at alliance maps right now, could be anywhere from 2 to 6 different alliances. And if they are actively at war they could have a number of systems actively being camped.

It is such a colorful map now, back when I was playing a lot there was about 4 alliances that controlled 90% of 0.0 space. I think the run from that system, our corp's "home" system, to empire space, was entirely within our alliance and there was little threat, just a lot of time, to make the run.
I was hoping I could jump through a lot of empty areas and being through a system before they knew where I was, let alone where I was going.

As for the cloak, I'm 99% sure I don't have any in the base. I do however have a jump clone there, so I know I can get there. It might be worth trying the run a time or two with a vigil or rifter to see what sort of response I can expect.
Gate camp = me dead, me just showing up in the system for 1 minute, I can probably make it through.

Some of the map options seem to have changed too, probably for performance reasons. I either forgot how, or they removed, the option to show number of pilots in a system, and the number of ships destroyed in a system for the entire map.

As for telling you which system, I'll do that when I can. In this case I trust the playgrounders, partly because unless I tell you exactly when I plan on making the run the system name is meaningless and virtually impossible for you to capitalize from said information.

As for the corp... not surprised. I doubt, with as few players as there are here, that I could find one that fits my rather specific and limited needs.
Though if my stuff is in goon space as they are still recruiting virtually anything that moves to swarm stuff to death, then I might be able to make half the trip much safer.

Janwin

2012-01-09, 03:10 PM

Have they changed the mechanics? As soon as your ship starts moving, you lose your gate cloak, which includes aligning.

They have not changed the mechanics, and this is correct. You move, you lose cloak.

Again, unless they've changed the mechanics, the only cloak that works while you're trying to warp is the covert ops one, which can only be fitted to force recons, covert ops frigates, stealth bombers and blockade runners.

If done correctly, the warp and cloak technique (basically align, hit MWD/AB, cloak, deactivate MWD/AB) means you're only visible for a fraction of a second (provided nobody gets within 2km of you), so you're well away before they can find you.

This is also correct. The 'cloak technique' doesn't help you warp at all. It has nothing to do with warping (unless you can fit a cov ops cloak, in which case as long as you're not in a bubble, who cares).

What the 'cloak technique' is is another form of propulsion fiddling. Basically, if you have a cloak fit to your ship, jump through a gate and land in a camp, if you un-gate-cloak and recloak before starting to move, it's going to be pretty easy for a frig to get within 2km of you.

So what you do is: double click a direction away at an angle from the gang, trigger your prop module, and then trigger your cloak. What this does is makes you move faster than your cloak would normally allow you to move (due to the speed reduction) and, if you played it right and the enemy frigs aren't that good, will mean you end up in a completely different spot, over 2km away from where you were, when the frigs get to you. And thus, you remain cloaked. Then you can maneuver to a safe distance, drop cloak and warp off.

The only problem is that you have to wait for your propulsion module to cycle off before your maximum speed drops (10 seconds for a MWD, 10+ for AB depending on your AB skill), which can be a very nerve racking period of time. :smalltongue:

Which is sometimes less time than if you didn't trigger it. I use the MWD trick all the time in my Abbadon to warp faster. Getting to 75% max velocity (warp speed) takes longer in most battleships than the MWD cycle, so you click warp to, fire MWD and deactivate MWD. Saves you a couple seconds.

pffh

2012-01-09, 03:15 PM

As for the corp... not surprised. I doubt, with as few players as there are here, that I could find one that fits my rather specific and limited needs.
Though if my stuff is in goon space as they are still recruiting virtually anything that moves to swarm stuff to death, then I might be able to make half the trip much safer.

Note though if you join Goons for even a miniscule amount of time most other corps will never hire you.

Janwin

2012-01-09, 03:22 PM

Yeah, I'll have to wait until I get home to check the system name, I think its
in what is normally considered the "top" of the map.
Which, looking at alliance maps right now, could be anywhere from 2 to 6 different alliances. And if they are actively at war they could have a number of systems actively being camped.

Depending on where it is, I may be able to help you with this one if you can't get it out yourself. >.>

Some of the map options seem to have changed too, probably for performance reasons. I either forgot how, or they removed, the option to show number of pilots in a system, and the number of ships destroyed in a system for the entire map.

You can still see the number of jumps in a system, ships destroyed (last hour or 24), pods killed, etc. It's in your map, somewhere in the options. Again, not on right now, so I can't check.

As for the corp... not surprised. I doubt, with as few players as there are here, that I could find one that fits my rather specific and limited needs.
Though if my stuff is in goon space as they are still recruiting virtually anything that moves to swarm stuff to death, then I might be able to make half the trip much safer.

Just beware the people who tell you that they can get you into the Goons for a small processing fee of 200 million ISK. Goons are scammers at their core. And until (and even after, sometimes) you're actually a member, you're a chump waiting to get ripped off.

Also, something to keep in mind...your corp history will follow you forever, wherever. If you join Goons and decide you don't like the mentality of 'recruit anything with a pulse' sometime later, and decide you want to join an alliance with a different viewpoint, that 'Goonswarm' in your corp history will haunt you.

Much like I could never join Goonswarm, myself. >.> Not that I would particularly want to.

Erloas

2012-01-09, 03:31 PM

Much like I could never join Goonswarm, myself. >.> Not that I would particularly want to.
I would never be part of them either. Just a thought to be green while traveling through their space, just long enough to get the ship out. But yeah, probably easier to just take a loss on the ship.

Janwin

2012-01-09, 03:38 PM

JusticeZero

2012-01-09, 03:44 PM

Have they changed the mechanics? As soon as your ship starts moving, you lose your gate cloak, which includes aligning.
Oh yes, it's that you pop the cloak when gate cloaked (which uncloaks you, but then you cloak again) then align, then warp and kill the cloak while doing the rest of this. (haven't been flying in lowsec in awhile, in school and stuck with a laptop that won't run the client while being repeatedly rebuffed in attempts to get a working desktop) That was how we were hauling things anyways. My friend liked mining, but his market of choice was a highsec island.

Been researching and planning coming back with a career change, a character change even since I put a huge number of skill points in places i'm not interested in anymore, and don't want to have to pay for high SP clones on a weaker character since my next plan is going to involve me getting blown up a whole lot for awhile.

I had been goofing around in high sec working on various things; tried to go into science and blueprint copying, spent an extraordinary number of SP on science skills, then got to the part where I needed to mission grind to get faction so I could get datacores to actually DO the research and realized that
1: I hate mission grinding. Seriously, I hate it. I'd rather work retail as a volunteer than mission grind, and this is coming from someone who actually has worked retail for free before;
2: the queues on research facilities in high sec space are mindblowingly long (not an insoluble problem since you only get datacores so fast, but it was intimidating when I tried to test out my skills and went "I have to wait HOW long for lab space..!?");
3: the friend who I was playing with had to cancel his subscription, because he bought and moved to a house that had a bad electrical system of some sort that destroyed all his computer equipment twice over in spite of surge protection. After they buried the fifth computer, they said "...We'll just go to the library down the road.."

pffh

2012-01-09, 03:45 PM

I would never be part of them either. Just a thought to be green while traveling through their space, just long enough to get the ship out. But yeah, probably easier to just take a loss on the ship.

You should also check if the alliances that own the systems you need to travel through are NBSI or NRDS you never know you might get lucky.

JusticeZero

2012-01-09, 04:02 PM

If you join Goons and decide you don't like the mentality of 'recruit anything with a pulse' sometime later, and decide you want to join an alliance with a different viewpoint, that 'Goonswarm' in your corp history will haunt you.

My understanding is that they do not recruit, they just have a number of people running scams claiming to recruit. There's an awful lot of corps out there without getting suckered by thinking that you have to be in the central supermegacorp.

Janwin

2012-01-09, 04:16 PM

Correct. That's my understanding as well. To get into the main mega-corp, you need an account on the SomethingAwful forums.

A place where no person who values their sanity, nor particularly cares for the well-being of their soul, should venture.

However, there are a number of non "Goonswarm" corps in the alliance. This being because they do want numbers. And those corps do recruit people from outside the forums.

Or so is how I understand it.

I still don't recommend it.

As to NBSI or NRDS, if his stuff is up in the north as he says...it's going to be NBSI. The main space holders up north are Goons (and pets), NC., and Raiden., all of which have always held to an NBSI policy.

NEO|Phyte

2012-01-09, 04:30 PM

I was part of the swarm for a while, by way of the Penny-Arcade corp Merch Industrial. Goon culture is a strange strange thing. I wouldn't call it terrible myself, but I can certainly see why others would. This is advertised up front in the PA recruitment thread.

7. Spy clause: You will be called a spy. You are a spy. We know you’re a spy and it’s only a matter of time until we catch you in your spying ways. Thick skins are expected. If you are a big softy, a pansy, and do not have a thick skin, don't apply. You will be mocked, you will be called a spy, you will read words you never thought you'd see in chat windows, you will see every racial and ethnic slur used hourly and it will offend all of your pseudo-PC space bushido e-honor sensibilities. Four letter word: cope. When you die and lose all your stuff you will be laughed at. Life is hard, and so is EVE.

From my experience, as long as you don't a)do something dumb, and b) say so in chat, you are fine. But oh man if someone starts talking about how they just spent all their isk on a BS they barely have the skills for and then got tackled in a belt and lost it and now they're broke, they are gonna get mocked so hard.

Then occasionally you get entirely clueless people, who despite their corp having specific rules that they are not to be posting in Ask A Director, do so anyway. And argue with people when they get yelled at for doing something they are specifically not supposed to do. They don't stay part of the swarm long.

Saph

2012-01-09, 04:37 PM

Basic rules of EVE:

Do not fly what you cannot afford to replace.
Do NOT fly what you cannot afford to replace.
Assume any ship you undock in will need to be replaced.
Anyone asking for money in exchange for something is trying to scam you.
Make sure a contract is actually what someone is saying it is.

Bears repeating. :smallbiggrin:

I played EVE for six months or so. Started with mission running, moved on to lowsec exploration, then got into PvP via Factional Warfare. Got very good at killing other people before I decided to take a break.

I'm not sure if I'm going to go back, but I'd definitely recommend EVE as a game, especially if you like trade, PvP, or multiplayer gameplay in general. It really is one of the most interesting MMORPGs out there.

Starwulf

2012-01-09, 05:42 PM

7. Spy clause: You will be called a spy. You are a spy. We know you’re a spy and it’s only a matter of time until we catch you in your spying ways. Thick skins are expected. If you are a big softy, a pansy, and do not have a thick skin, don't apply. You will be mocked, you will be called a spy, you will read words you never thought you'd see in chat windows, you will see every racial and ethnic slur used hourly and it will offend all of your pseudo-PC space bushido e-honor sensibilities. Four letter word: cope. When you die and lose all your stuff you will be laughed at. Life is hard, and so is EVE.

It's that quote, along with the fact that EVE has rampant PVP(and all the douches that go along with that), that I'll never play the game, despite how incredibly interesting and fun the game sounds and looks. I can't stand individuals that think it's ok to yell profanities and worse at people for no better reason then "because", and games that allow that just aren't worth it imo. Still, it is fun to read this thread and imagine the fun that could be had ^^

Erloas

2012-01-09, 05:50 PM

You should also check if the alliances that own the systems you need to travel through are NBSI or NRDS you never know you might get lucky.

NBSI is alliance I used to be in, the reason my BS is in the station to begin with. Which is all the more stupid at me mixing up blue and green, being in an NPC corp right now its either green or nothing.

I think there is about a 0.1% chance of anyone remembering me from 5 years ago, especially since I was never in an important role.

Saph

2012-01-09, 05:57 PM

individuals that think it's ok to yell profanities and worse at people for no better reason then "because"

Oh god yes. I tended not to attract the attention of the really obnoxious characters since I was usually fairly polite even to people who were trying to kill me, but you still see all kinds of ridiculous stuff being thrown around in the chat window. It helps to have a sense of humour about it. :smalltongue:

JusticeZero

2012-01-09, 06:50 PM

It's that quote, along with the fact that EVE has rampant PVP(and all the douches that go along with that), that I'll never play the game...
Honestly, most of the people who i've seen in any game who thought it was OK to "yell profanities and worse at people for no better reason then 'because'", or generally act horribly to other people have been PvE types. A lot of those jerks don't have the humility and good humor it takes to PvP and expose themselves to people who can beat them up like they were doing to other people. Instead, they just mine or mission or whatever, act entitled to things that they aren't actually entitled to, bully people, and froth malice and hate at people who refuse to acknowledge and make way for their planet-sized ego.

I don't think it's a PvP/PvE thing, so much as a "X% of people are jerks" thing. I don't believe that there's a correlation. Certainly while PvP creates new ways to be annoying, the PvE environment creates new ways to be annoying as well, by exploiting the protective qualities of the PvE setting rules to abuse people.

A lot of PvPers - pirates, for instance - will blow you up in an unfair fight :smalleek: (well duh, not like really fair fights ever happen ANYWHERE, online or rl) and ransom your pod. That's how they afford ammo and replacement ships after all; ammo doesn't fall from ammo trees, and they don't want to spend a lot of time doing things they find non-fun, and they were trying to pick fights anyways.. Then you can get in a friendly conversation with them, they'll give you great information on how to avoid getting blown up or caught in the future and how to fit to fight pirates. :smallsmile:

Then you have the people who think that they can put a personal reservation on public resources, or whatever. Some have elaborate schemes of how they can trick people into making the game blow them up/kill them from having a zillion pulled and herded enemies dumped on them/whatever without risk that they spend huge amounts of effort enacting against people for imagined slights or the lulz. :smallannoyed:

So.. no, it's not a PvP thing. It's a "Some people are weaksauce, just cope with them and learn to avoid/deal with them instead of having us make a mechanism to try to stop them that they will find a way to turn around and use against you" thing.

Erloas

2012-01-09, 07:22 PM

So the Tempest is in QYZM-W in the Branch region. Call the stabber also in the station a loss, and just sell the rest of the stuff there, though I don't even know if I can get into the region to place a sell order without dieing. I have a claw not too far away from there too, but I'll have to call that a loss too.

I'll probably make a test run in a rifter/vigil over a couple days to get a feel for activity vs time. In reality I could probably replace the ship in less time then trying to plan out the perfect the run... but the run seems exciting. Quite a bit of decent loot in that station too. I'll also have to test the AB/MWD to warp timing and see how quickly I can get times down.

And I found the map statistics. It seems, like before, these aren't highly traveled systems. Almost none of the systems currently have any active pilots in them and most only had a dozen or two jumps in the last hour.
And, not that surprisingly, it seems the majority of the kills along the route are right at the end, near the edges of empire space.

Starwulf

2012-01-09, 07:36 PM

Honestly, most of the people who i've seen in any game who thought it was OK to "yell profanities and worse at people for no better reason then 'because'", or generally act horribly to other people have been PvE types. A lot of those jerks don't have the humility and good humor it takes to PvP and expose themselves to people who can beat them up like they were doing to other people. Instead, they just mine or mission or whatever, act entitled to things that they aren't actually entitled to, bully people, and froth malice and hate at people who refuse to acknowledge and make way for their planet-sized ego.

I don't think it's a PvP/PvE thing, so much as a "X% of people are jerks" thing. I don't believe that there's a correlation. Certainly while PvP creates new ways to be annoying, the PvE environment creates new ways to be annoying as well, by exploiting the protective qualities of the PvE setting rules to abuse people.

A lot of PvPers - pirates, for instance - will blow you up in an unfair fight :smalleek: (well duh, not like really fair fights ever happen ANYWHERE, online or rl) and ransom your pod. That's how they afford ammo and replacement ships after all; ammo doesn't fall from ammo trees, and they don't want to spend a lot of time doing things they find non-fun, and they were trying to pick fights anyways.. Then you can get in a friendly conversation with them, they'll give you great information on how to avoid getting blown up or caught in the future and how to fit to fight pirates. :smallsmile:

Then you have the people who think that they can put a personal reservation on public resources, or whatever. Some have elaborate schemes of how they can trick people into making the game blow them up/kill them from having a zillion pulled and herded enemies dumped on them/whatever without risk that they spend huge amounts of effort enacting against people for imagined slights or the lulz. :smallannoyed:

So.. no, it's not a PvP thing. It's a "Some people are weaksauce, just cope with them and learn to avoid/deal with them instead of having us make a mechanism to try to stop them that they will find a way to turn around and use against you" thing.

I'll definitely have to disagree, I've played quite a few MMOs, and/or games that are online based, and the general attitude I've always seen amongst PvPers is "I'm better then you because I play the game the way it should be, person versus person, real skill versus real skill, and anyone who doesn't PvP shouldn't be playing at all". Hell, even my real life friends who play online games, the ones who do PvP constantly shove it the faces of those of us who only PvE. The general attitude I've seen of PvEers is "I just want to enjoy what the game has to offer in peace, I want to do my own thing either by myself of with a group of like-minded people, in peace and quiet". And from everything I've ever heard of EVE, no offense, it's no different.

On the other hand, a game with the specific qualities that EVE possesses, I guess I can see where even PvEers can be jerks, in just the ways you described, which is why I will never play EVE, despite how awesome of a game it appears to be. I just dislike griefers in general, and prefer online games where I, for the majority of the time, have the ability to steer clear of them.

Another thing I think that really discourages me from EVE, is the idea of absolutely massive clans/guilds/linkshells/alliances that completely dominate and block off access to, certain areas of the game. If I'm paying(no idea if EVE is still pay to play, I know it used to be) to play a game, I fully expect I have the right to access all parts and areas of said game if I so choose to.

Worira

2012-01-09, 07:41 PM

You have the right to access anywhere, in the sense that you have the right to access anywhere on a map in a first person shooter game. That doesn't mean you won't get blown up if you try, though.

Janwin

2012-01-09, 07:49 PM

If it's in Branch you're probably best writing it off as gone.

I still have assets up there from when I was in FATAL long ago. >.>

Goons just attacked that area, so it's pretty active and hostile, more than likely.

NEO|Phyte

2012-01-09, 08:03 PM

I had some stuff sitting down in NPC Delve for the longest time, from when goonswarm forgot to pay its sov bills.

I also had a jumpclone and a rifter sitting in c3n, which had been my corp's home system.

I made it from c3n to the NPC station fine, then about 1/4 of the way to empire space hit a gatecamp and died.

The stuff had been essentially lost to me for the months I'd let it sit, but at least now it's not sitting in my assets list.

Erloas

2012-01-09, 10:48 PM

Another thing I think that really discourages me from EVE, is the idea of absolutely massive clans/guilds/linkshells/alliances that completely dominate and block off access to, certain areas of the game. If I'm paying(no idea if EVE is still pay to play, I know it used to be) to play a game, I fully expect I have the right to access all parts and areas of said game if I so choose to.
You have the right to access it, within the design of the game.
I haven't seen any MMO, even the ones that are said to be solo friendly, that you can do 100% of the content by yourself, or even with just a small group.
Every game has raid content, its just that this raid content is against other players rather then the computer.

Its also possible to join a corp with access to low sec space and essentially just solo after that. I know I spent a decent of time soloing, while part of a small corp within a larger alliance.

Almost the entire story in EVE is shaped by players. Players actions have large and last effects on the universe and get written into it.

Its also possible, but exceptionally more dangerous, to work in 0.0 space without being in an alliance and its not that uncommon for pirates to take out alliance members in their 0.0 space.

Many of the capitol ships though can't be made without the help of other people, or at least special structures that can only be built in 0.0, which is almost impossible to do on your own. Its possible to buy them, but because of their resource cost and use, no one is going to sell one outside their own alliance. They also can't be flown into secure space.

JusticeZero

2012-01-10, 12:12 AM

On the other hand, a game with the specific qualities that EVE possesses, I guess I can see where even PvEers can be jerks, in just the ways you described..

Actually, a lot of the PvE griefing I've experienced has been on other games. On one game, some high level characters decided to raid the newbie area and farm all the mobs that were low enough level for starting characters to kill. They couldn't actually get any xp or treasure from doing this, it was for the lulz. I've had people train massive armies of PvE enemies onto me in every game i've played BUT EVE, which makes Eve one of the LESS griefable games out there in its own way. I've had people wander around looting stuff from me in any game that allowed it. In EVE, I can shoot them if they do that. The other games I just had to write it off. Then there was the guy who ran a PvE raid then logged before it was time to divvy up the spoils while carrying it all.. I get Stop Having Fun Guys everywhere.

Yeah, PvPers can be loud. Nobody brags about griefing a whole raid, they want to be able to pull it off again. The PvPers who come back saying "We just had this huge battle, I got totally ambushed by this one guy, that trap was awesome, and then I got back in and two-shotted Frankie, hey Frankie, PM me and i'll help you figure out how to be able to live through more than two shots next time, 'kay?" are, yes, a bit loud with bravado and such. Doesn't mean they're bad people or griefers.

Also: the game is freaking ginormous, and let's be honest: If you've seen one solar system, you've pretty much seen 'em all. It's not like someone is blocking off Nisse's Lair so nobody can play there but them. They're temporarily dominating a huge, generally featureless area which was designed explicitly for the purpose of being fought over and owned in just that fashion, leaving an equally vast, identically featureless area that cannot be so owned.

There's suns, which you can look at, ooh, another big ball of burning plasma just like the trillion or so other ones in the sky. There's planets that you can't land on. (wait for Dust to come out on the PS3 for that) There are space stations with various facilities that you can access, but they're just space stations, they aren't Unique Cities of Adventure or anything. There are fields full of space rocks. Some old space wreckage. Not a lot else. Space is big and empty. What you do with it is the fun bit, and that's based more on the configuration of the systems and rock fields and such.

So i'm not seeing the fact that you might not easily be able to visit a star system right this moment (due to shifting politics) that was probably made by a random number generator with the same cut and paste features as everywhere else, twenty solar systems into an area where rules that you don't like are in play ANYWAYS, to be a meaningful complaint.

Gauntlet

2012-01-10, 01:34 AM

I'm probably going to start playing EVE again in the next few days on a new account. If anyone feels like doing the Recruit stuff, send me a PM or reply here.

Erloas

2012-01-10, 09:53 AM

You're going to start back up, but create a new account?

I'll split the isk from the PLEX from you if you have me get it. Which, looking at the market recently, it seems they go from 450-500M isk, depending somewhat on how quickly you want it to move I would imagine.

As for the BS, after more checking, the route does seem to go through a lot of different alliances. The system itself seems to be owned by a small alliance, then 2-3 Goon systems, then a few Raiden, then open 0.0 space, then Pirate Coalition and I think 1-2 others that I forget at this point.

In looking at selling off loot, at least near Rens, it seems to be a bit more profitable to refine it down first and sell it as raw materials, at least for the non-rare stuff that people won't really be using. Does that usually seem to be the case? I know a lot of the purchasers of those items buy them just to refine. And of course it might depend somewhat on refining skills.

Brother Oni

2012-01-10, 10:34 AM

In looking at selling off loot, at least near Rens, it seems to be a bit more profitable to refine it down first and sell it as raw materials, at least for the non-rare stuff that people won't really be using. Does that usually seem to be the case? I know a lot of the purchasers of those items buy them just to refine. And of course it might depend somewhat on refining skills.

It very much depends on the item compared to the prices you find for your minerals.

Unless you get 0% loss on reprocessing and NPC takes, it's often better to sell the item even on low meta items.
High meta items generally sell for more than their mineral equivalent.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-10, 11:17 AM

JusticeZero

2012-01-10, 11:51 AM

Sure, what you're saying is easily summed up for a starting character as "I want to make money by hauling high-value goods from a trade hub to sell in low sec or 0.0." Learn trading skills, start working on how to fly cloaked ships, check out the markets, and start hauling things. From Jita to NPC-controlled 0.0, carrying rigs and T2 blueprint copies, for instance. Hauling of any sort is a lucrative career.

There is also at least one set of corps that specialize in freight hauling into fairly stressful places. Or maybe you'll get adopted by a bunch of pirates, or something.

Jimorian

2012-01-10, 12:34 PM

I used to sit in the Mining and Manufacturing chat channel and watch the wizards of the deal make 2B Isk deals without batting an eyelash. A character named Molic Blackbird was the champ at that. And yes, there are freight corps, the one that came up the most often as a reliable carrier was Red Frog.

Haven't played in a while, so dropped the game, but if I get more time (and a better computer) I'll probably pick it up again. I was just experimenting with the commodities market towards the end and was learning quite a bit about which items really made the most money. For example, you may find some good profit margin items, but they don't churn enough to make big money on them. Usually the stuff that sells a lot also has a lot of competition and smaller margins, but you make up for it in volume.

Brother Oni

2012-01-10, 02:22 PM

Is there a need for courrier/runners? People carrying things over dangerous territories fast and discreetly?

I like the thrill of the chase. To be hunted, and evading the predator. Is such gameplay available in the game?

Further to JusticeZero's comments, there's even a class of ship available for the role; the blockade runner.

To be honest though, you'll probably get enough hide and seek thrills just from hanging about in low sec. I usually got asked to run ships into low sec for corp mate pirate alts, although there was that one time we had to move a Rhea (a large defenceless cargo ship) into 0.4 from high sec - you should have seen the pirates swarming outside the station where it docked :smallbiggrin:.

Miklus

2012-01-10, 02:32 PM

Q: Can you transfer money from one character to another?

I'm a bit turned off going into production after waiting three hours for a batch of rockets to finish. I think I'll try trading instead. Buy low, sell high!

Tips for making money WITHOUT getting shot at are welcome...

Jimorian

2012-01-10, 02:37 PM

The only limit on cash transfers is from trial characters to paid characters.

Erloas

2012-01-10, 03:13 PM

I'm a bit turned off going into production after waiting three hours for a batch of rockets to finish. I think I'll try trading instead. Buy low, sell high!

Tips for making money WITHOUT getting shot at are welcome...

Production is... probably a hard way to make money early on. There is too much overhead and competition and lots of people with skills to make stuff cheaper.

This is just an educated guess because I'm not a trader... Find a base system that is as close to 3-4 different regions as possible because you can't see the market outside of a region and between regions is going to be the main differences between price points. Its hard to even say what sort of items to trade in would be. There are some people that post items to sell for cheaper then what others buy them for just because they are too lazy to make the run. Some items have a very low cargo space use so you can run a lot of them quickly in a small fast ship. I would guess building components probably have the most profit in them, between the mission runners that get a lot of them and the builders that actually need them.

Its also possible to do non-combat based missions. There are a lot of them in fact. Many of the agent types do a lot of courier, with sides in either kill, mining or trading. There are databases around with the type of agent and the % breakdown of mission types they offer. Find one that offers a lot of courier, and a high quality agent, and start doing missions for them. You'll have to start at level 1 agents most of the time and work up to higher level agents as you gain standing with a corp or government. You'll probably need a frigate and a hauler handy at the station to switch between depending on the size of the delivery needed.

Brother Oni

2012-01-10, 04:12 PM

You'll probably need a frigate and a hauler handy at the station to switch between depending on the size of the delivery needed.

Further to this, always check the route of an NPC mission before accepting it. If it takes you into low-sec and you're not prepared, it can cost you your ship and NPC standing if you get jumped by player pirates.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-10, 04:14 PM

Blockade runner? Neat. Something that can runaway very fast, can it be used to stealth or quick attacks?

I'd guess I would need to take missions from an Archive or Marketing Agent?

Erloas

2012-01-10, 04:29 PM

I pulled up 3 different agent listings and found 3 different answers. Of course they were all close, but a little different here and there.

Agent type and % of missions of each type.
Accounting 88% Courier, 12% Trade
Administration 47% Kill, 47% Courier, 6% Trade
Advisory 14% Kill, 58% Courier, 14% Trade, 14% Mining
Archives 92% Courier, 8% Trade
Astrosurveying 13% Kill, 25% Courier, 13% Trade, 50% Mining
Command 88% Kill, 6% Courier, 6% Trade
Distribution 5% Kill, 85% Courier, 5% Trade, 5% Mining
Financial 12% Kill, 70% Courier, 18% Trade
Intelligence 74% Kill, 21% Courier, 5% Trade
Internal Security 98% Kill, 2% Courier
Legal 67% Kill, 27% Courier, 6% Trade
Manufacturing 48% Courier, 4% Trade, 48% Mining
Marketing 17% Kill, 77% Courier, 6% Trade
Mining 10% Courier, 5% Trade, 85% Mining
Personnel 28% Kill, 66% Courier, 6% Trade
Production 52% Courier, 13% Trade, 35% Mining
Public Relations 28% Kill, 66% Courier, 6% Trade
R&D 50% Courier, 50% Trade
Security 94% Kill, 6% Courier
Storage 6% Kill, 71% Courier, 6% Trade, 17% Mining
Surveillance 84% Kill, 11% Courier, 5% Trade

I don't really know what the trade missions entail. And I know once or twice I ended up with a mining mission and just bought the required goods rather then mining them, didn't make money but it avoided agent standing loss (which at the time wasn't as clear as to when you lost standings)

Jonzac

2012-01-10, 05:39 PM

pffh

2012-01-10, 06:00 PM

Erloas

2012-01-10, 11:05 PM

Did they remove the agent quality thing? It doesn't show up any more, and at least one agent finder site I checked showed them all at 20.

Also does the region or the corp have more impact on the type of rats you'll end up facing in missions? I'm wanting to face more angles so I can get loot I actually use.

pffh

2012-01-11, 02:52 AM

Sprinter

2012-01-11, 05:41 AM

If your completely new I would suggest searching (internet and game) for EVE University. A corp dedicated to helping brand new folks learn and get moving in the game. Forming gangs, industrial, ship replacement, etc.

Worth a look

Back in time when i was quitting EVE joining EVE University actualy was not recommended at all because they were often declared war by griefer corps and in such cases EU leadership ordered new player to sit in stations to prevent unnecesary losses. However it also prevented them from learning anything at all .

Brother Oni

2012-01-11, 07:30 AM

Blockade runner? Neat. Something that can runaway very fast, can it be used to stealth or quick attacks?

Blockade runners are very manoeuverable (quick align times) have minimal weapons (maybe a single turret), reasonable defences (they are T2 ships) and can fit a covert ops cloaking device (they can warp while cloaked).

I wouldn't use them for combat and generally wouldn't bother fitting a weapon at all - if you're caught, you're dead and a single small/medium turret has problems with NPC frigates, let alone a pirate gang.

If you want to play cloaky sneak attack games, force recons or stealth bombers are what you need to be looking at.

Saph

2012-01-11, 07:39 AM

Back in time when i was quitting EVE joining EVE University actualy was not recommended at all because they were often declared war by griefer corps and in such cases EU leadership ordered new player to sit in stations to prevent unnecesary losses. However it also prevented them from learning anything at all .

EVE Uni has a "dec shield" these days that makes them almost invulnerable to war declarations last time I checked, so they're extremely safe. The downside to that is that they don't teach you much about how to survive in the harsher environments.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-11, 08:49 AM

Blockade runners are very manoeuverable (quick align times) have minimal weapons (maybe a single turret), reasonable defences (they are T2 ships) and can fit a covert ops cloaking device (they can warp while cloaked).

I wouldn't use them for combat and generally wouldn't bother fitting a weapon at all - if you're caught, you're dead and a single small/medium turret has problems with NPC frigates, let alone a pirate gang.

If you want to play cloaky sneak attack games, force recons or stealth bombers are what you need to be looking at.

Thanks. That's helpful. How quickly do you go cloaked vs uncloaked?

Warp cloaked, it is a good idea if you have to wait 30 seconds before recloaking when you arrive? Isn't it better to engage stealth as soon as you get to destination, and hope to outrun the ennemy when leaving?

I'd rather chance the enemies I know are there rather than the ones I know nothing about...

Erloas

2012-01-11, 11:27 AM

Thanks. That's helpful. How quickly do you go cloaked vs uncloaked?
One thing to keep in mind about the T2 ships and cloaks is that they aren't really newbie types of ships. They cost a decent amount and they take a while to train. Only having limited access to info right now, you'll probably be looking at about 2 weeks of training time to get into covert ops, probably a bit over a month to get into a blockade runner. Of course the cost will probably be the biggest limiting factor, with the blockade runners being in the 60-80M range, the covert ops frigates (cloaking but little cargo space) are a more reasonable 20M'ish Isk.

Angels hang mostly around gallente space and yes they removed the quality. Lower sec still gives better rewards.

It seems quite a few of the EVE sites are very slow to update, as now that I know what to look for, these agent changes where made 7-8 months ago and a lot of places still have the old information up.

Its really good that they removed the quality part of the agents, it lets people spread out so much more, as you don't have 100 people all using the same agent.
I did find a nice level 3 agent in Molden Heath in lower highsec where I don't have to worry about jumping into camped systems and can rat angels.
Of course at this point I think I'm getting back into the hang of things to pick up a new BS and try some level 4s. Probably build up a bit of loot first, don't have any good tanking stuff right now.

It really is amazing how much the market changes between regions. Heimatar was incredible active, with buy and sell orders very steady on just about every single item. Molden Heath has almost no active buyers of anything and selling prices are all over the place. But of course at the same time a Rupture was about 3M isk cheaper in Molden Heath then Heimatar, which is about 30%.

I have 2 jump clones in deep 0.0 space, one with the tempest, the other with a claw. I'll probably jump to the claw soon, sell what I can, and make the run out in the claw, which should be pretty easy. Then I'll probably install that clone somewhere else in empire space.

What is the general feel of the Tornado, and the other battlecruisers that can fit large weapons? Seems interesting, its fast (relatively) and about half the price of a BS, but its got significantly less tanking capabilities.

JusticeZero

2012-01-11, 03:38 PM

By the time you have gotten the skills to fly a T2 ship, and the financial flow to be able to afford having them occasionally blown up from under you, you should have a good idea of how to do things. ;)

Start with cheaper ships. If you can't do your job in cheap tech-1 ships and fittings, then the move to tech-2 ships is just going to bankrupt you. It takes some time before you have the ability to fly a t2 ship, and even more time before you can get your core skills to the point where you can use it well. You can do a whole lot with cheap ships, really. They get the job done. T2 is often diminishing returns for cost. (One analysis noted that moving from a 2mil fitted out t1 frigate to its t2 assault frigate variant increased DPS by 15% and cost by something like 1000%.)

Meanwhile, look for a good Pirate Guide to read and learn how pirates do their business - they fly around all day in low security space after all, trying not to get caught, and are the ones who will probably be trying to blow you up most often. In 0.0, they use similar techniques, but instead of wandering pirates you have player military fleets.

One blog post I read recently was written by someone who operated out of a war zone in 0.0, and noted that a lot of battleships would get blown up in the battles were in - they liked blowing things up. They put a jump clone (spare clone that you can move your consciousness to) in the main trade hub to buy battleships, then paid someone, who paid some other people, to haul said battleships to 0.0. After a couple of months of reinvestment and selling the battleships and common fittings for them, they were pulling down a couple billion in profit every month, even considering the rather pricy hauling fees; they weren't even spending all that much time on playing with the market, since they started because they wanted more ships to fly around and fight in.

In comparison, i'm told that solo miners in tricked-out Hulk mining barges apparently tend to make about 10-12 million a day. Not sure why people claim that mining is the most efficient way to make bank...some people just like doing it though.

You plan to do your own hauling, and you enjoy the hauling-out-to-war-zones part; you'll be able to cut the shipping fees. You'll probably want to get some experience in the field flying with your customers, so that you can learn more about the market and the place you're shipping to.

If you can net more than about 400 million in profit each month, you can play for free. Months of paid subscription fees can take the form of an in-game physical redeemable object that can be sold or traded as well as turned into game time; the sort of people who would be buying gold from chinese farmers in other games can sell these to people in-game. These can be traded, speculated in, stockpiled, or whatever.

The people who buy lots of money like that are usually recognizable, look for the people on young characters who are suddenly no longer flying a huge t2 ship because some pirate duo flying 6 million in t1 frigates and cruisers just blew their improperly fit, poorly piloted $1,200,000,000.00 ship to smithereens.

pffh

2012-01-11, 03:55 PM

The people who buy lots of money like that are usually recognizable, look for the people on young characters who are suddenly no longer flying a huge t2 ship because some pirate duo flying 6 million in t1 frigates and cruisers just blew their improperly fit, poorly piloted $1,200,000,000.00 ship to smithereens.

I love people like that. I once killed some idiot in low sec flying a navy raven fitted with non-named tech 1 items and not a single shield hardener.

Erloas

2012-01-11, 04:20 PM

Yeah, there is a big difference between being able to undock with a ship and actually being able to fly it.

In comparison, i'm told that solo miners in tricked-out Hulk mining barges apparently tend to make about 10-12 million a day. Not sure why people claim that mining is the most efficient way to make bank...some people just like doing it though.
I would have to imagine that would be in high sec, safe space, and also depending how long you define a day as. And with the knowledge that on average you aren't going to find a lot of good ore.
I know doing corp a mining op with 1-2 haulers, 1 defense and 4-5 miners my split was something like 20-30M after a few hours. I don't remember specifically because it was a long time ago, and I don't know what they used to determine the going rate for the minerals, as we were mining for corp resources, not to sell.

Which is the other part of mining... there are certain things that you just can't get from blowing stuff up and refining the loot. All the stuff that big corps and alliances need to get the fancy stuff.

NEO|Phyte

2012-01-11, 05:36 PM

Mining IS the most efficient way to make money.

...If you run half a dozen accounts at once to powermine entire belts.

JusticeZero

2012-01-11, 05:40 PM

I know doing corp a mining op with 1-2 haulers, 1 defense and 4-5 miners my split was something like 20-30M after a few hours. Well yeah, if you have a full mining op, the profit goes up quite a bit into the 20-30M range. Last I looked, that meant a few Hulks, an Orca (bleepin' 'uge ship with a big bonus to tractor beam range and a hold you could misplace a city in to scoop up jet cans and let the miners mine nonstop), someone running leadership for mining bonuses, plus whatever else is needed to keep the op from getting blown up. There are some really well set up coordinated mining corporations, but it seemed like they mostly bragged about getting hauls in the vicinity of 20-30M per pilot in a day's digging, which is a shift several hours long. The guy I was playing with found that relaxing after a day of work; I personally found it very dull. (Then again, I liked Astrometrics, but without having someone to tell "Hey, I just found a hidden asteroid belt full of stuff you can't normally find laying around" it got dull and rather saddening.)

Oddly, I often hear and found that basic Veldspar is often tops for mining; everything needs a whole lot of it, and miners can carve the rocks up like they were melting butter; the unit cost might be meh, but the rate and transaction velocity makes up for it - the fact that the demand as well as the supply is large floats the price reasonably high. I particularly found that to be true when I was bored and digging by myself in a highsec system with an Osprey; I didn't even see a substantial jump when I was hacking away on a chunk of Jaspet. (I will openly admit that I wasn't exactly checking against Jita prices and keeping precise records; mostly I was just saving up for a skillbook or three.) If you can find Mercoxit or something, that probably makes more, but that generally means you're the guest of an alliance out in 0.0 or something, and your defense is now a foreign policy matter. Ice has been big lately, too; iirc, fuel for certain big things is a consumable ice product.

pffh

2012-01-11, 05:55 PM

The good thing about mining is that it can be done in relative afkness. We used to play tabletop RPG's over vent during big mining ops.

Brother Oni

2012-01-11, 07:06 PM

Thanks. That's helpful. How quickly do you go cloaked vs uncloaked?

If I understand your question correctly, there is no velocity penalty when using a Covert Ops cloak, but there are on some of the others.

Note that you can't active any other modules while your cloak is active.

Warp cloaked, it is a good idea if you have to wait 30 seconds before recloaking when you arrive? Isn't it better to engage stealth as soon as you get to destination, and hope to outrun the ennemy when leaving?

If you're using a covert ops cloaking device, you arrive still cloaked, so they won't even know that you're there. Note that if you've just jumped through a gate, then you still have the gate 'cloak' on the other side, which you need to lose before you can activate any modules, including your cloaking device.

Note that when you decloak, there's a targeting delay and you can't recloak for another 30 seconds.
If you're targeted by another ship, you can't recloak either.

Erloas

2012-01-11, 11:50 PM

So here is a lesson...
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14996260

Someone just posted it in chat. They lost 151B isk worth of items and the killing players got another 3B isk worth of loot dropped.

Obviously not an unskilled pilot, but apparently not a smart one. In 0.0 space, moving that much stuff. Don't know if he had an escort, but it obviously wasn't enough if he did.
The bits that stand out to me is the complete lack of any real tank, just a passive armor tank... even an assault frigate would eventually wear that down... well maybe, might run out of ammo first.

Hauling that much stuff without a AB or MWD, and without a single warp core stabilizer. And with a bunch of items thats going to make the ship slower, less agile, and just decrease its chance of escape.

Considering how much of the lost cost was BPs, and they are pretty small, thats a move job for an interceptor or covert ops ship.

Brother Oni

2012-01-12, 03:11 AM

Hauling that much stuff without a AB or MWD, and without a single warp core stabilizer. And with a bunch of items thats going to make the ship slower, less agile, and just decrease its chance of escape.

I agree on the AB, not so much on the WCS with the advent of interdictors.

That said, it looks like he either got hotdropped by a bunch of capital ships (3 Nyx, 2 Aeons and a Nidhoggur), or something small got assigned fighters to it, which fried his ship.

Considering how much of the lost cost was BPs, and they are pretty small, thats a move job for an interceptor or covert ops ship.

Judging from the rest of his cargo, a frigate hull would probably be too small, not to mention vulnerable to your standard disco-thon loadout. Blockade runner or a force recon (without any plates) would have been better.

pffh

2012-01-12, 04:47 AM

To me it looks like he jumped right into a fleet gearing up for an invasion.

Erloas

2012-01-12, 08:45 AM

I agree on the AB, not so much on the WCS with the advent of interdictors.
Well yes, there are ways around the WCS, like everything in EVE. But at least then difference then is 1 fairly skill intensive specialize ship catching him... or any pilot with a week's training and a t1 frigate.
But yeah... I don't see any sort of tackler in the kill list, so he might have simply jumped into a camp, though with 2 people doing 80% of the damage the other 3 must have shown up late. Overall it just seems like he was setting himself up for failure.

Judging from the rest of his cargo, a frigate hull would probably be too small, not to mention vulnerable to your standard disco-thon loadout. Blockade runner or a force recon (without any plates) would have been better.
Oh, I'm sure the frigate would be way too small, especially since he had the cargo extenders installed. With that much at risk though, and no apparent escort, taking multiple trips in a smaller, faster ship seems like the thing to do. Which could have been done with a number of things.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-12, 08:50 AM

I guess you have to pay for fuel and other stuff? Multiple runs is less efficient than a single heavy run?

pffh

2012-01-12, 09:17 AM

I guess you have to pay for fuel and other stuff? Multiple runs is less efficient than a single heavy run?

Only capital ships use fuel so the only thing he would have saved by hauling it all at once is some time.

Brother Oni

2012-01-12, 10:04 AM

Only capital ships use fuel so the only thing he would have saved by hauling it all at once is some time.

I forget, can capital ships use jump gates, or is the only way they can change systems is through jumping to cynosural beacons?

pffh

2012-01-12, 10:09 AM

I forget, can capital ships use jump gates, or is the only way they can change systems is through jumping to cynosural beacons?

Nope they can't use stargates. It's one of the reasons why you won't see a capital ship in high sec.

Well except for Chribba's Veldfleet of course.

Janwin

2012-01-12, 10:48 AM

Obviously not an unskilled pilot, but apparently not a smart one. In 0.0 space, moving that much stuff. Don't know if he had an escort, but it obviously wasn't enough if he did.

Well, looking at DOTLAN, the system he died in is well within his alliance's space. I'm going to guess that Pandemic Legion was launching an attack on IRC's space because of their being allied to PL's enemies at this time (I say at this time because PL is currently hired by their enemy).

He may have been simply going from one system to another with his manufacturing stuff, thinking it was safe (however, I'd really rather of hoped that IRC would have a home region intel channel, and it's not like it's hard to find/report about 6 PL supers).

Or he may have been trying to make a panic run out of there with his stuff fearing that PL was going to be taking their systems.

The bits that stand out to me is the complete lack of any real tank, just a passive armor tank... even an assault frigate would eventually wear that down... well maybe, might run out of ammo first.

It looks like his fit was a combat Tempest (though even for combat, replacing the cargohold extenders with tank mods, it's not that great (IRC isn't known for having great fittings)) that he re-purposed for hauling. A bad idea.

Hauling that much stuff without a AB or MWD, and without a single warp core stabilizer. And with a bunch of items thats going to make the ship slower, less agile, and just decrease its chance of escape.

Again, looks like a re-purposed combat Tempest. Though it should have an MWD, at least (not that it would have saved him). The part that confuses me, however, is the absolute lack of any sort of e-war on that mail. Unless one of the supers had a warp disruptor (which they often do), there's no tackle. And even if it was one of the supers, I'm pretty sure a supercarrier (even with sensor boosters) can't lock a BS before it warps. So the guy was an idiot.

To me it looks like he jumped right into a fleet gearing up for an invasion.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. *innocent eyeshift* *polishes the new wax on his Abbadons*

I guess you have to pay for fuel and other stuff? Multiple runs is less efficient than a single heavy run?

Actually, using a carrier to get all of that stuff out would have been the safest way.

1. have someone scout the undock station and system to make sure it's safe.
2. have recon go to jump system (with station if you can pull it off) and make sure it's empty.
3. jump carrier to recon, dock.
4. repeat process until you're in Empire.

The problem is, however, the reason nobody really wants the Russian's space is that it's a logistical nightmare (no, really, it sucks, badly (been doing jump planning through there lately)). There's choke points where you either have to go through your enemy's space, or a single system that (literally) everyone has to go through...and thus, being a strategic system of high importance, is almost guaranteed to be insecure and death upon jump-in.

Pretty much, evacing from where he was, he was screwed one way or another. Though the carrier route still would have been safer.

Erloas

2012-01-12, 12:01 PM

It looks like his fit was a combat Tempest (though even for combat, replacing the cargohold extenders with tank mods, it's not that great (IRC isn't known for having great fittings)) that he re-purposed for hauling. A bad idea.
...
Again, looks like a re-purposed combat Tempest. Though it should have an MWD, at least (not that it would have saved him).
Yeah, there are a lot of things that was just stupid. And yeah, jumping into a bunch of ships like that you aren't likely to survive unless you can escape, but what just doesn't make sense to me is he wasn't even prepared to escape from a much weaker attack. Almost anything could have dictated range in a fight again him, I wouldn't have been all that surprised if a single HAC could have handled him, just much slower.

If I ran the numbers correctly (limited availability of utilities at work, two different equations on the wikis I can check, no accounting for skills) it should have taken about 19 seconds for a Aeon to lock the tempest. The base time to warp for the tempest is 15.5 seconds, so the loss of speed and increased mass from the armor plates, and a possible scan booster, its not all that hard to see them getting it targeted before warp.

There are a lot of weird things to be moving though... why so many skill books, especially so many of each? Even if they were for the alliance (as there isn't going to be any market for them out there) thats a lot more then would be used in any reasonable amount of time... and jump clones make hauling skill books to 0.0 space just a waste... unless skill books are part of the loot tables now, they weren't when I played before.

And if you are making a run from your system before you loose it, I would have to assume almost everyone is going to have multiple ships to move, spread the haul back to safe space over your many different ships.
And if your whole alliance/corp is expecting the system to fall you would think it would have been easy to find some people to scout out the area.

So I will again ask about the Tornado. What does everyone think of it, or at least the general class of ship for other races. Not a whole lot of info around on them yet. Its about half the size of a normal BC, but half the defense too, but twice the speed. Faster then many cruisers but with similar defense, slightly bigger sig radius, and on the more maneuverable side even compared to cruisers.

As I'm comfortable enough with combat again to move out of my rupture and deciding if I should go back to my cyclone, or buy something else. Could go back to a BS, but they are all so slow and I'm very much a fan of fast ships. And of course the hurricane, tempest, and maelstrom are all options. I prefer the AC route... but sometimes the ammo conservation of artillery is nice (as I don't have reliable access to ammo at this point, have the BPOs for the ones I used but no where to manufacturer them... and actually I think the BPOs are in Branch with my lost tempest).
At this point missions and a bit of ratting is what I expect to be doing, at least until I find a corp. HAC's are interesting but I've got a least cruiser lvl5 skill to train before I can fly them, so close to a month.

pffh

2012-01-12, 12:13 PM

I´ve been looking to get back into pvp-ing (just a bit of low sec roaming in a cruiser) any wouldn't mind a wingman.

Erloas

2012-01-12, 12:29 PM

I´ve been looking to get back into pvp-ing (just a bit of low sec roaming in a cruiser) any wouldn't mind a wingman.

I keep thinking that as well. I would join you if you want to go, at least if we are in the same time zones. Either t2 frigate or t1 cruiser, depending what works best.

pffh

2012-01-12, 01:11 PM

I keep thinking that as well. I would join you if you want to go, at least if we are in the same time zones. Either t2 frigate or t1 cruiser, depending what works best.

I play mostly after 18:00 GMT

Erloas

2012-01-12, 02:38 PM

I play mostly after 18:00 GMT
Ah, you must either work a night shift* or be in Europe. I'm usually going to be around during that time on the weekend, but never during the week.
Which is ok too, because I don't have much time to play during the week anyway, and usually I'm playing EVE on the weekends in the morning before anything else is going on.

*When I first started playing EVE I was working night shift over the weekends. It was pretty much the only game that was pretty active on the times I had to play.

pffh

2012-01-12, 03:19 PM

Well my first step back into pvp didn't last long. Me in a thorax vs a deimos. Was a good fight though did more damage then I took and almost brought down his armor. Ship + fit only cost me around 8 mil so not much lost there.

JusticeZero

2012-01-12, 04:03 PM

I'll have to check back in about a month. My computer is still toast and I can't afford a new motherboard/memory/CPU until February. (one of the three is toast but in practice, all of them probably are anyways since the new stuff would likely use different sockets and such)

Now i'm just trying to decide between the Kestrel or the Tristan to practice in. I'm leaning toward the Kestrel, since it only needs one weapon system (missile/rocket launchers, recently boosted) to be skilled up. The Tristan, on the other hand, seems to have the weird position of many people agreeing that it'd be a good ship, but nobody actually flying it, and so no easy info on how one might learn to use it as a result. Part of that is probably how it needs skill in missiles, hybrids, AND operating combat drones to use effectively.

Rockets and hybrids - blasters and rail guns which both use power to throw a canful of something nasty at targets - were boosted a little while back. Previously, slugthrowers and lasers were considered top of the roost, for different reasons; two of the four starting races, the ones that built the ships i'm looking at, prefer hybrid weapons. One also preferred rockets, which until recently had the problem that a pilot could very easily outrun the warhead's explosion.

Both had a bad reputation in pvp as a result, and everybody who was starting out ran out to fly machine-gunning Rifters and Punishers instead (And usually replaced the Punishers' lasers with machineguns, on account of a slight mismatch of ship role and the merits of lasers). Neither of those two ships have a guide written about them. It'd be nice to be able to write one, now that their weapon systems are a bit more effective.

Also, the Incursus guide (different ship from the race that built the Tristan) isn't very detailed. To just say "Fit like this, I did!" where the Rifter Guide and Punisher Plan discuss the options is annoying; it doesn't really tell how those modules affected the performance of the ship. The Punisher Plan in particular ended up deciding against the "standard fit", for instance, and had a lot of discussion of why.

pffh

2012-01-12, 04:19 PM

New thorax, same fit, same deimos pilot. Now that I knew where he was guess who just killed a deimos (and a random mining bantam) in a thorax.

JusticeZero

2012-01-12, 04:25 PM

What sort of fit and how did it go? Was there anything you'd do different next time?

pffh

2012-01-12, 04:44 PM

What sort of fit and how did it go? Was there anything you'd do different next time?

Blasters, MWD, web, scrambler, tungsten 800mm armor plate, damage control and three magnetic field stabilizers and I had about 20% armor left. I'm thinking about switching one of the field stabilizers for some more tank.

Basically what allowed me to kill him was the fact that he didn't have a web and his guns had an optimum range of over 10km while mine had around 1300m and I had a web so he was missing most of the time allowing me to take him down.

Erloas

2012-01-12, 05:34 PM

Taking down a HAC is pretty impressive, especially being in a ship with the same hull, so essentially all the same advantages.

Send me an email in game and we'll see about hooking up over the weekend. Name is erloas there too.

pffh

2012-01-12, 05:51 PM

Taking down a HAC is pretty impressive, especially being in a ship with the same hull, so essentially all the same advantages.

I was just lucky. If he had used a web or blasters instead of rails (and drones I forgot to mention that he never deployed drones) I would have been screwed.

And I got ambushed by another deimos and a hurricane a little later and was promptly brought down a notch :smalltongue:

Caewil

2012-01-12, 09:12 PM

What was that gallente interceptor that people used to hull-tank? Those were fun as heck. I used those to fly one of those around low sec a long time ago.

JusticeZero

2012-01-13, 02:19 AM

What was that gallente interceptor that people used to hull-tank?
The Taranis? People still hull tank those.

Just saw an article about a new player, written within the past couple weeks, that was pretty inspiring. A total newbie made a character, did the intro missions, hooked up with a corporation in an alliance out in 0.0, relocated out to Curse (0.0 region), loaded up a cheap t1 Rifter with tackle fitting and had some of the pilots give him some tips. Then something broke out and he went along in a fleet in a big endgame-type battle. Someone called out that some very expensive ships needed to get tackled before they did nasty stuff, so he did - and racked up a rather impressive number of killmails (getting credit for tackling plus minor damage) on very high end ships. ON HIS FIRST DAY PLAYING. In a ship that probably cost less than 2 million fully outfitted.

According to his kill board, as of now he's lost about 0.04B ISK in ships, and had been involved in blowing up 8.85B worth. What other MMO's do you ever see anything like that happening in, really?

Erloas

2012-01-13, 10:49 AM

According to his kill board, as of now he's lost about 0.04B ISK in ships, and had been involved in blowing up 8.85B worth. What other MMO's do you ever see anything like that happening in, really?
Well no other game measures success in ISK... so no... :)
But yeah, EVE is really unique in the stratification of the game and making almost everything useful.

I remember early on in DAOC it was possible to be useful in "end game" content in PvP at low levels, relic raids and such, where a lot of success is based on information and support.

Of course I find it a bit hard to believe it was his *first* day unless he was playing for 12+ hours, thats a lot to get done in a day. And new players must start out with a fair amount more skills then they did when I started, as I don't think EWAR was all that possible in less then 3-4 days unless you very specifically build your character in start-up for it. And yeah, you can't forget the fact that he had to have been helped along quite a bit, as even a 2M frigate is well beyond what most new players can afford to loose in less then a week unless they're putting in a lot of hours.

I hate rats that have "player" abilities... its just so annoying. And it really does just become annoying because they didn't have any ability at all to really threaten me, they just make it almost impossible to kill them without refitting my ship completely and I got bored of it and left. Of course the mission was designed as a "trap" and you were supposed to run away, with something like 8-10 cruisers vs me, also in a cruiser. But the annoying part was the sensor dampeners, where my target range went from 54k to 10k, but they were so slow I was still moving out of range when only going 150m/s. And I was using artillery so didn't have the DPS to kill them quickly. And every time I almost had one dead it would be out of range and I would loose target. I swear it dropped target many times when they were still within range. I wanted that 2M or so worth of bounty, but I just ran out of time (and didn't have the equipment handy to refit right away), so I left.

Oh well, I'm going to go pick up a maelstrom tonight and move on to level 4s... either that or get around to finding a real corp.

pffh

2012-01-13, 10:58 AM

Well no other game measures success in ISK... so no... :)
But yeah, EVE is really unique in the stratification of the game and making almost everything useful.

I remember early on in DAOC it was possible to be useful in "end game" content in PvP at low levels, relic raids and such, where a lot of success is based on information and support.

Of course I find it a bit hard to believe it was his *first* day unless he was playing for 12+ hours, thats a lot to get done in a day. And new players must start out with a fair amount more skills then they did when I started, as I don't think EWAR was all that possible in less then 3-4 days unless you very specifically build your character in start-up for it. And yeah, you can't forget the fact that he had to have been helped along quite a bit, as even a 2M frigate is well beyond what most new players can afford to loose in less then a week unless they're putting in a lot of hours.

They start with more skill points, double training speed until they hit 1mil sp and +10 to all attributes and don't have to train learning skills so they can focus straight on what they want to do.

Miklus

2012-01-13, 11:29 AM

I signed up for a real account as I am done with most of the tutorials. Now I just need to learn to fly the badger...

I'm thinking about setting up shop near the border to nul-sec and try to make some ISK. I'm pretty sure that if I try PvP I will get blow to atoms if not quarks, so I need a steady income.

Will I get "ganked" if I fly into 0.4 sec? Or is it safe? What is the lowest sec that unescorted trade ships dare go to in general?

pffh

2012-01-13, 11:44 AM

Will I get "ganked" if I fly into 0.4 sec? Or is it safe? What is the lowest sec that unescorted trade ships dare go to in general?

0.5.

0.5 to 1.0 is high sec(aka Empire space) and is guarded by concord.
0.1 to 0.4 is low sec and is not guarded by concord and the only protection you have are a couple of turrets around the gates and stations. Everyone can attack you here.
0.0 is nullsec. You have no protection other then what you bring yourself.

JusticeZero

2012-01-13, 12:19 PM

0.4 is low sec. You can be attacked there. The gate guns will still try to protect you, but those aren't instadeath like the concord death beams in high sec.

My advice is to spend some time flying frigates. They're cheap. Try to haul some small, useful stuff in those, while you learn the neighborhood, the markets in your vicinity, and how to get around. Plus, you may want to get your basic competencies up. Cheap throwaway ships for a dangerous world.

If a pirate blows you up, ask them for advice on how not to get blown up next time. A lot of them are really nice, beyond the whole "I need to blow ships up and loot the wreckage and collect ransoms to pay for my pew pew habit" thing. Plus, they might go "Oooh, ooh, you want to haul? Can you sell our corp some ___? We're all -10 and we can't go into 0.5+ space to go shopping without CONCORD blowing us up..."

Erloas

2012-01-13, 12:25 PM

Will I get "ganked" if I fly into 0.4 sec? Or is it safe? What is the lowest sec that unescorted trade ships dare go to in general?

As pffh said, 0.5 and above has Concord protection. Low-Sec Empire space, 0.1-0.4, has sentry guns at stations and jump gates that will attack aggressors, but in most cases anyone attacking in those regions can deal with them, its not that hard to get a tank that will survive the sentry guns while camping a low-sec system. Most gate camps and pirates will be in low-sec, generally in highly traveled low-sec systems or choke points between high-sec areas.

There are a lot of people in low-sec that won't attack you, and there are a few that are specifically looking for stuff like that. And there are a few that wouldn't normally, but are opportunistic and will if it looks like an easy kill.

A hauler is going to draw attention, or the industry type cruisers. Most frigates are probably not going to be seen as worth the effort for the opportunistic types. If you hang out in an area for a while you can get a feel for how the people are there and what your chances of being attacked is.

To start out in low-sec I would work with medium value items that are relatively small and can be moved with frigates or cruisers and not go for the mass hauls of industrial ships.

Miklus

2012-01-13, 06:33 PM

I could not resist a little sightseeing. Jita really IS like New York: The traffic is awful, everyone is yelling all over the place and I think I saw someone get mugged.

Then on to New Caldari, presumambly the capital? Just one jump from Jita, but you can almost see the tumbleweeds bounce through there...

JusticeZero

2012-01-14, 02:44 AM

Yes, it is the financial center of Eve. There are other market hubs, but they all follow price trends set in Jita. It is the place to go if ever you need to order, say two thousand tech 2 battleships of an unusual type and you want them RIGHT NOW. The massive concentration of trade and industry in Jita makes it possible. Oceans of goods flow in and out of the system every day, and competition pushes margins down to a sliver. If you want a good deal on something, and don't have time to research whether someone in a hicksville star system is foolishly selling below cost (which happens quite a bit actually.. they dig the minerals themself and it doesn't occur to them that they could just sell the ore for more than the finished widget) you will likely go here.

Erloas

2012-01-14, 02:48 AM

So is there any way to bring up two different info screens at once to compare items? I haven't found a way yet, and its really annoying to try and compare items when you have to switch back and forth between them.

JusticeZero

2012-01-14, 03:09 AM

Not sure since i'm not yet able to dink with it, but if nothing else you could pop open the ingame browser and look the items up..

maratek

2012-01-14, 10:28 AM

Erloas

2012-01-14, 11:29 AM

So last night I got home late, and figured it was between late and really late all across the US, getting on towards early morning in Europe, which seems to make up much of the roaming PvP that I've seen. So with server populations as lot as they go I decided to make a jump out to my interceptor and make the run home with it and see what I saw.

I couldn't do anything in the base, not insure my ship, or refit it, couldn't even refine my modules to sell for what I could get out of them.

After selling what I could for whatever buyers in the station had it set for (which wasn't good for most of it, but its some positive cash from what would otherwise be lost items) and taking the best equipment I could fit I headed out.

The station system started out with like 6 people in it, jumped up a little bit, then jumped to 26 for a while (think this was an aggressor alliance, couldn't really tell) then dropped to like 3 people.

Once underway I think I saw maybe 6 systems with 1-2 people in them out of the 30ish jumps to low sec. Knowing random people in 0.0 space, I'm sure most were either docks or docked soon after I jumped in, so the EVE paranoia probably worked in my favor, because really, who would guess a 5 yr old pilot jumping into your 0.0 system in the middle of the night was making an escape run rather then hunting other people. In the end, I didn't see a single person in space until low sec.

So I think my chances of jumping out the BS are pretty good. Have to wait a while before I can clone jump again though.
But man, is it a long journey. 40 jumps, even with an interceptor jumping to 0, is a slow process, the BS is going to be much worse.
Overall though it wasn't a bad investment in time, 15m ship recovered and 15-20m worth of items recovered or sold, not bad for 1-2 hours of work.

And passing through Jita, it is a PITA. I think I'll avoid it as much as possible. And the same 6 people spamming the same PLEX info in local is really annoying. Especially when many of the sellers and buyers are talking about the same item at the same price, they could just trade with themselves and be done with it.
Jita prices were also kind of all over the place, some things were cheaper, but quite a few things were a lot more expensive too. The market there just seems to be way too controlled by a few power players.

JusticeZero

2012-01-14, 03:13 PM

The thing about safety is that anything you do feels uneventful and safe, till suddenly it isn't.. Moving a battleship is potentially this. "Ugh, what a boring flight, I hardly see anybody on, this is such a safe place OMGGATECAMPAIEE*podded*" Be careful. =)

Jita's market has way too many power players in it to be controlled. That doesn't mean it's nicey nice wholesale mellowness - that's actually a sign of a place being controlled by a power player. (Or an idiot who loses money on every unit.) Just think of Walmart. Low, stable prices - because they're a major power player and they can keep the margins locked down so tight that competitors bankrupt themselves trying to get a piece of the action.

It's closer to the Wall Street market floor. Loud, chaotic, but there's so much competing noise going on that the end result is relatively smooth. People try to manipulate the market all the time, but there are too many fingers in the pie and too many fortunes to be made unwinding the manipulations for them to have too huge of an effect for long.

It's not a fun place to go for anyone who doesn't love finance or business as a rule. But if you plan to be in business, you should understand Jita.

As a tip: If you don't need the funds right away, and you have the market slots, try putting things up on sell orders instead of filling buy orders, if the buy orders seem at all low. You might have to wait for someone to shop it, but it pays better.

Erloas

2012-01-14, 03:38 PM

Yeah, I know that with the sell orders, but for the stuff in 0.0 where its too much of a pain to get to, its just not worth it.

JusticeZero

2012-01-14, 04:29 PM

You're not the one buying it, and some people live out there. =)

Erloas

2012-01-14, 04:48 PM

Well the problem with selling it there is that the majority of the stuff I had in those systems was loot drops from the rats there. So almost all of it is stuff they have easy access to. And I think that particular base is fairly isolated from the rest of the region so the number of potential buyers is pretty small. Now, if it had been pirate faction base, especially one a bit closer to low sec, I think it would have sold a lot better.

And one question in terms of drones... I know the general idea is light for frigates, medium for cruisers, and heavy for BS... but how bad is a heavy drone's tracking in terms of hitting a frigate?
The EFT program shows the DPS of a heavy against a frigate is better then a medium or light until the frigate hits about 1KM/s, and the medium out does the light until somewhere in the 1.5-2KM/s range. Does this mostly agree with what you guys have seen?
I know thats *not* the case when changing from light to medium to large ACs, at least not without webifiers and such.
At this point I'm mostly thing missions, but its something to keep in mind for PvP as well, because thats where you're going to see frigates going that fast.

pffh

2012-01-14, 05:23 PM

For missions the faster heavy drones are good enough for frigates (wasps I think are the fastest) and for pvp medium are usually fast enough unless they are going several km/s but even then it's quite rare for someone to be able to maintain that speed for longer then a few seconds.

I may or may not have decided to look for a nullsec corp again. Anyone have any contacts that are looking for pilots or would be interested in a 27mil sp pilot?

Erloas

2012-01-15, 12:19 AM

Hi guys ive been playing eve now for a week or so just generally missioning so if anyone wants to do something or needs me ill be about mostly GMT 17:00+ most nights so feel free to drop me a line see what we can get upto my toons Name is Maratek Tsongan

So I tried to look for you a bit ago and it seems you misspelled your own name. What I could find is Maratek Tsontan.

I'll look for you to do something with tomorrow.

And a Thrasher +2 tractor beams, +6 salvagers makes looting so much better. Vigil just didn't have the cargo room or the high slots to make it go quickly.

JusticeZero

2012-01-15, 01:14 AM

Yep.
They actually have a purpose-built industrial ship for salvaging now, a Noctis.

Gauntlet

2012-01-15, 03:38 AM

Account made, installed. Holy **** I have missed the music.

Miklus

2012-01-15, 05:29 PM

I think I'll set myself up as a refiner. Yes, the margins are razor thin, but I'm training to be really good at it. It's going to take 5 days before I get refinery 5. Then there is refining efficiency and then the ore type specialization.

Even then there is maybe ½ a isk to be made per unit refined. But I plan to make up for it in volume!

If that fails to make me rich, I can always add some manufactoring on top of that.

Is there really nothing inbetween the Badger mark II and the Charon for ore hauling??? The Charon is kind of pricey @ just under a billion...

How about a one-man miner? The Bantam and the Osprey have too small cargo spaces to be good single miner. You have to run back to station all the time. The Badger has huge cargo space, but it takes *forever* to mine. You see a lot of badger mining, nonetheless.

JusticeZero

2012-01-15, 06:21 PM

Usually, ore miners train to operate a Hulk. Look at the ORE Exhumers and mining barges.

Caewil

2012-01-15, 06:23 PM

It's usually a hulk for one man mining. Of course, that takes months to train up to and the reward is... Getting to be AFK for long periods of time. Most hulk pilots are macro miners anyway.

On getting rich, best and easiest thing to do is join a guild and do some team related stuff. Much more efficient than going it alone.

Erloas

2012-01-15, 08:55 PM

How about a one-man miner? The Bantam and the Osprey have too small cargo spaces to be good single miner. You have to run back to station all the time. The Badger has huge cargo space, but it takes *forever* to mine. You see a lot of badger mining, nonetheless.
In the time until you get to the ORE miners, and if you plan on mining as a career its pretty much mandatory, you first get the anchoring skill, then you buy a secure container, drop it off at your belt of choice and anchor it down (0.7 or less, at least I think, the way the guides are written I'm not sure if 0.7 is included or not included in anchorable space).
Then you take your miner of choice, fill up the container, and once its full dock and grab your hauler to pull the ore out of the container and to the station.
There might be a few more steps to it now, as I think they've changed some of the anchoring rights, its not something I do so I haven't keep up on it.

As for refining... if you've noticed there are a lot of buy orders for common loot, the stuff that everyone gets and no one uses because they have better stuff? That is refiners, they know the minerals in item X is worth 40k, so they set the buy-it price for less then that, people sell it to them and the refine it down.
How much you can make per item depends a lot on the system. And its a given you don't have the skills to buy every type of item on the market, so its best to know what kind of missions are in the area, what kind of loot they commonly drop, and set up buy orders for that. Chances are some place like The Forge or Heimatar is going to have very low profit margins, however someplace, like where I'm at now, Molden Heath, has a lot less market activity so its a lot easier to find good profits.

Skills to look for with that is remote buying, which will allow you to buy items from multiple stations, so the lazy people selling you the items don't have to move it anywhere to get it to you. And don't bother going to pick up every item at every station all the time, you might not wait for a whole haulers worth of goods, but at least a dozen or two worth of items to make it worth picking them up. Then there is the scrap metal refining skill (not sure if thats the name) for better results refining loot.

Of course that all takes quite a bit of capital because you can't put 1 billion isk worth of buy orders out if you don't have 1 billion isk to buy those items with.

The main advantage to loot rather then minerals is that there are a lot of mission runners out there that don't follow the markets that closely. And to them selling stuff easily is worth getting a few thousand less isk per item compared to the time it would take otherwise. And there are a lot more people out there rating and missioning then there is people watching the markets.

king.com

2012-01-15, 10:57 PM

I hate you all so much, now I want to play Eve again.... and that means I need to stop playing Swtor....

JusticeZero

2012-01-15, 11:51 PM

..first get the anchoring skill, then you buy a secure container, drop it off at your belt of choice and anchor it down (0.7 or less...

Anchored containers really aren't big enough to make that feasible.. they're much much smaller than a jet can, and advertizes "A miner comes here regularly!" to people whose reaction is, if I remember the quote on a blog, "You do not get to RESERVE asteroids, you silly goof!" Then a bunch of miners mined everything near the can right after restart and left.

Brother Oni

2012-01-16, 07:51 AM

I think I'll set myself up as a refiner. Yes, the margins are razor thin, but I'm training to be really good at it. It's going to take 5 days before I get refinery 5. Then there is refining efficiency and then the ore type specialization.

Note that you only need Refining Efficiency 4 and Ore spec 2 to hit your 100% at a 50% base refine station - much faster than RE5 and Ore spec 1.

Note that to minimise your refining overheads, you'll need some corp standing towards the station owners (6.67 I think it was to hit zero losses), which probably means some mission running.

Is there really nothing inbetween the Badger mark II and the Charon for ore hauling??? The Charon is kind of pricey @ just under a billion...

If you're staying Caldari only, the next best would be a Bustard, but that's a T2 industrial, which doesn't help you in flying a Charon.

If you're aiming for a Charon, go for it and ignore the Bustard.
If you're willing to branch out, Iterons (Gallente indys) have the most band for your buck in shifting stuff for T1 industrial ships.

Using GSCs in your cargo hold can also help you shift stuff as they hold 3900m3 of stuff, but only take 3000m3 in your hold (numbers might be a bit off, it's been a while).

Skills to look for with that is remote buying, which will allow you to buy items from multiple stations, so the lazy people selling you the items don't have to move it anywhere to get it to you.

As clarification, what Erloas means is that you need Procurement to setup buy orders remotely (along with Visibility to expand the range on those remote orders).

You can still fly to the target station and manually setup a buy order and its range, but it's far more efficient to use skills when you're operating over a large number of jumps across multiple regions.

You don't need a skill to buy something at a target station (just be careful not to accidentally setup a zero duration buy order).

Then there is the scrap metal refining skill (not sure if thats the name) for better results refining loot.

Yup, Scrapmetal Processing does exactly the same thing as the various ore refining skills when processing modules and random crap like drone alloys (not just scrapmetal).
Note that you only need it to level 1 as it has higher pre-requisites than the ore processing skills.

Erloas

2012-01-16, 08:45 AM

Anchored containers really aren't big enough to make that feasible.. they're much much smaller than a jet can, and advertizes "A miner comes here regularly!" to people whose reaction is, if I remember the quote on a blog, "You do not get to RESERVE asteroids, you silly goof!" Then a bunch of miners mined everything near the can right after restart and left.

Well yes, the jet can is better in a lot of ways, but if you've got issues with ore thieves or that sort of thing then secure cans help.
If you do go the jet can route you have to remember to refresh the can every hour or so... I think they last 2 hours and I've heard of a few times of someone mining for a long time and having the jet can time out and pop on them while completely full of the ore they had spent hours collecting.

Of course I don't think "mining out the belt" around a secure can is a likely thing to worry about unless you hit a high population system.
Just like everything else though, you can come out ahead if you find a slow system where there is little competition for the better ores. Some systems have a lot of belts, they'll probably attract more miners, but its also easier to spread out. There are some systems without a base in them, these are almost always dead, and while it will increase your haul time quite a bit it might be worth it. Even systems with stations, but without one to manufacturer are probably going to be less busy.

Janwin

2012-01-16, 10:37 AM

Regarding your experience:

I couldn't do anything in the base, not insure my ship, or refit it, couldn't even refine my modules to sell for what I could get out of them.

That'd be because the vast majority of 0.0 alliances set their station rights (docking, refining, refitting, clone bay, etc) only available to those who are blue (positive standings) to their alliance. You aren't.

After selling what I could for whatever buyers in the station had it set for (which wasn't good for most of it, but its some positive cash from what would otherwise be lost items) and taking the best equipment I could fit I headed out.

You might have been better off putting everything up on a contract at a rediculously low price. Someone then buys everything for an awesome price (in their opinion). It's called a "firesale" and is what people who get evicted from their space and have no option to get their stuff out tend to do to recoup at least some losses.

Once underway I think I saw maybe 6 systems with 1-2 people in them out of the 30ish jumps to low sec. Knowing random people in 0.0 space, I'm sure most were either docks or docked soon after I jumped in, so the EVE paranoia probably worked in my favor, because really, who would guess a 5 yr old pilot jumping into your 0.0 system in the middle of the night was making an escape run rather then hunting other people. In the end, I didn't see a single person in space until low sec.

If there's one or two people, and they're impossible to find, there's a few likely possibilities:

1. they're ratting and as soon as you entered they went to a safe or a POS.
2. they're in a signature or they are doing an escalation (if the latter, you can't find them, period).
3. it's a bot and as soon as you entered local it did #1.

So I think my chances of jumping out the BS are pretty good. Have to wait a while before I can clone jump again though.
But man, is it a long journey. 40 jumps, even with an interceptor jumping to 0, is a slow process, the BS is going to be much worse.

Now, see, here's your problem: from how I understand it, you were in high sec through most of these posts over the past days. You said you had a clone up in Branch where all your stuff was. This is great, this means you can get into the station via that clone!

Now, however, you've said you went up there, got your interceptor, undocked, and headed back to Empire. Because you aren't blue, you definitely didn't have access to the medical facilities, and thus couldn't install a jump clone in that station.

See, when you clone jumped up to get your interceptor, you activated that clone. You left the station with that clone. That clone is now wherever you ended up. You don't have one in the station anymore. A "jump clone" is just a "copy" of your avatar in the game, and you can switch between them. But where they are is where they are. It's not a spawn point with unlimited clones.

This means that you no longer have any method of getting into that station, and thus you cannot get your battleship or any of the rest of your stuff. Which means you're going to have to firesale the rest of the above (AKA: make a contract with everything you own in that station in it, at a low low price), or just have it remain unaccessible until you join an alliance that takes over that part of space..

Overall though it wasn't a bad investment in time, 15m ship recovered and 15-20m worth of items recovered or sold, not bad for 1-2 hours of work.

Getting one ship out is definitely better than getting 0 ships out. I know your pain, though. I still have assets from long, long ago up in Branch from when FATAL fought the north (Razor and its 17 friends). Deimos, bunch of ceptors. Meh.

And passing through Jita, it is a PITA. I think I'll avoid it as much as possible. And the same 6 people spamming the same PLEX info in local is really annoying. Especially when many of the sellers and buyers are talking about the same item at the same price, they could just trade with themselves and be done with it.

These, my friend, are called "scammers". Whenever you see someone spamming plex sales, do not trust it. At all. Ever. Period. End of discussion.

When you click on their link and actually look at their contract, you'll see a number of common tricks.

WTB Plex:

If a player is looking to purchase a PLEX, you'll spot the following:
1. I get: 1 Plex. You get: 450 Thousand ISK. (Check the number of 0s. Always.)
2. I get: 2 Plex. You get: 450 Million ISK. (Note: this one would have a description of WTB Plex X1, so they say they want one, but hope you don't notice you're giving 2.)

WTS Plex:

If a player is looking to sell a PLEX, you'll spot the following:
1. You get: 1 Plex. I get: 4.50 Billion ISK. (Again, check the number of 0s. Always. This is harder to pull off since not many people have that much liquid ISK available.)
2. You get: 1 Plex. I get: 450 Million ISK. 1 Plex. (These scammers bank on the fact that you won't notice that one of the items you're giving THEM is a Plex. You might see it, and quickly assume it's just a display of what you're getting in the trade. It's not. That's you giving them a plex and money to get a plex. THIS ONE IS VERY COMMON.)
3. You get: . I get: 450 Million ISK. (That's right. You get nothing, but I get 450 Million ISK. They advertise it as a Plex through the link and title, but don't actually include one banking on you being in a hurry and clicking without looking closely.)

Welcome to Jita.

Sprinter

2012-01-16, 11:00 AM

All this talk about EVE brings back long forgotten memories :smallsmile:

I started back in early 2005 spend the first month skilling learning skills but at the same time i was doing some missions and exploring.

I remember my first trip to low sec i was just 2-3 weeks after start. My npc agent gave me an offer bring me blood raider silver tag and i gave you punisher.

Since i didnt have anything other to do while waiting for learning skills to finish i set to get this tag as goal tho i didnt have the skills to fly punisher and i could buy it from money RL friends send me. Went to amarr low sec where Blood raider bases were before they were moved to Delve.

I was bit worried before entering low sec but i could replace my ship and fittings easily. When i entered low sec i found it almost totaly empty with only few players passing by and none of them checked belts where i was killing npc frigs for the tag.

Almost lost the ship there because i decided to look inside 4/10 threat level plex that was there. 1/10 plex was easy but 2 hits from first missile turret in 4/10 almost killed me :smalltongue:

Anyway can someone explain what is "Dec Shield" Saph mentioned?

Janwin

2012-01-16, 11:26 AM

JusticeZero

2012-01-16, 12:31 PM

Re: finding places to mine..
Or you could get decent at Astrometrics and mine hidden belts.

Miklus

2012-01-16, 12:35 PM

Note that you only need Refining Efficiency 4 and Ore spec 2 to hit your 100% at a 50% base refine station - much faster than RE5 and Ore spec 1.

Yeah, I know. I bought some skill books on Veldspar refining and some of the other low-end ores. It is refining 5 that really takes time, but is needed for starting refining efficiency.

Note that to minimise your refining overheads, you'll need some corp standing towards the station owners (6.67 I think it was to hit zero losses), which probably means some mission running.

Yes, I need to improve my standing. I found a nice guide. It also expained how much metal comes from what ore and everything.

Yup, Scrapmetal Processing does exactly the same thing as the various ore refining skills when processing modules and random crap like drone alloys (not just scrapmetal).
Note that you only need it to level 1 as it has higher pre-requisites than the ore processing skills.

I have noticed that it does not pay to manufacture a Bantam. They are given away for free with the toturials. People buy them up for around 17K. I calculated that there are about 20K worth of metals in them. So maybe my next profession will be scrap metal buyer, on top of refining. Badgers Mk I, Condors and Merlins might also be good targets.

I have also trained my trade-related skills. I can place 33 orders (I think). I have not looked into this as much as the refining yet.

JusticeZero

2012-01-16, 12:50 PM

Bantams are also pretty much useless and unused, as every miner stops using them almost immediately after learning even a cruiser, and the cargo hold is too small. Condors are also unused; their only purpose would be as throwaway tacklers, but all the t1 frigates of that type have too few mid slots to perform that job effectively.
Some people use Merlins, some use Kestrels, and some use Herons. I can't say how often Griffins get flown, but it would probably be region-specific since ECM is not really a role used by mission runners. Merlin and Kestrel are both acceptable low end combat ships which are also good in missions, and astrometrics frigates get blown up fairly often as well.

You have to keep an eye out to see what stuff people will be getting blown up and then repurchasing; this is why you want some familiarity with your target market.

Erloas

2012-01-16, 03:03 PM

If there's one or two people, and they're impossible to find, there's a few likely possibilities:

1. they're ratting and as soon as you entered they went to a safe or a POS.
2. they're in a signature or they are doing an escalation (if the latter, you can't find them, period).
3. it's a bot and as soon as you entered local it did #1.
I figured there were doing non-PvP at the time. I never looked for anyone though, I simply ran through the systems. The point was mostly that I didn't find any systems that looks like they were active on my route at that time.

Now, see, here's your problem: from how I understand it, you were in high sec through most of these posts over the past days. You said you had a clone up in Branch where all your stuff was. This is great, this means you can get into the station via that clone!Maybe you missed it, maybe I didn't say, but the interceptor was in a second base about 8 jumps away from the base with the tempest, but off another side, so the majority of the route is the same. Both stations had jump clones in them.

These, my friend, are called "scammers". Whenever you see someone spamming plex sales, do not trust it. At all. Ever. Period. End of discussion.
Oh, I realize that. Its pretty obvious that there is something up when the supposed sale is for less then what someone else has a buy-it price on the market already. It is only slightly less obvious then winning the Nigerian lottery.
Of course I remember some big alliance used to have a lottery in the game, pretty sure that was legit though.

So in looking around some more, to find all the changes that have happened, I see the planetary scanning/settlement/production thing now.
I haven't had a chance to run any market info on the items yet. Is this also super competitive with razor thin profits? In seems more like mining in that you get resources for "free" once you cover the initial cost and time. Is it worth looking into for supplemental income? Something you can set up and then spend maybe a few hours a week gathering and selling the products? Or is it very time intensive? And is there any real chance of finding a decent planet without heading deep into 0.0? Mostly wondering if I can find anything worth while in a slow low-sec system.

Janwin

2012-01-16, 04:00 PM

Maybe you missed it, maybe I didn't say, but the interceptor was in a second base about 8 jumps away from the base with the tempest, but off another side, so the majority of the route is the same. Both stations had jump clones in them.

Ah! Excellent! Then you're alright. Just remember that for when you leave the other station: you can't come back. :0) Good luck!

So in looking around some more, to find all the changes that have happened, I see the planetary scanning/settlement/production thing now.
I haven't had a chance to run any market info on the items yet. Is this also super competitive with razor thin profits? In seems more like mining in that you get resources for "free" once you cover the initial cost and time. Is it worth looking into for supplemental income? Something you can set up and then spend maybe a few hours a week gathering and selling the products? Or is it very time intensive? And is there any real chance of finding a decent planet without heading deep into 0.0? Mostly wondering if I can find anything worth while in a slow low-sec system.

Planetary Interaction is...not a lot of money, but it's money. It's less money in high sec, though.

You have to check on your planets every 2 days or so for the best output. But that may be different in low sec (I've only run 0.0, so I don't know about low sec output rate).

Brother Oni

2012-01-16, 05:14 PM

Planetary Interaction is...not a lot of money, but it's money.

Probably not even that once Dust 514 gets integrated and people start raiding/capturing your installations for fun.

Erloas

2012-01-16, 05:37 PM

Probably not even that once Dust 514 gets integrated and people start raiding/capturing your installations for fun.

From the sounds of what I read on it, I'm not sure how that would work in low-sec space, especially not in high-sec space, and for players that aren't part of player owned corps. A small corp would never have the Dust players to defend itself.

It is interesting though, and since my brother has a PS3 I might have to get him to check it out once it is released. I could probably even get into the beta.

The thing is though, that conflict over those planetary items might be a good thing because if it cuts back on the supply of items from planets it would raise the prices of those items. However CCP must have some balancing plans for that otherwise its going to shoot T2 production costs to insane levels again.

As for the income from them. What is "not a lot of money"? Considering an average L3 combat mission in high sec space can easily pay 1M isk in rewards and bounty (and even more when salvaging is taken into account), can be done pretty easily in a cruiser (so early to mid character development), and takes anywhere from 15-40 minutes; so 1M isk isn't that much.
One guide estimated about 600K isk per day per planet (20M a month), which would be maybe 2M a day with 3 installations. Not going to be buying you a Titan any time soon but its enough to keep you PvPing in cruisers. But of course that guide was close to release and I'm sure the market has adjusted since then.

Sprinter

2012-01-17, 07:03 AM

A "dec shield" is a "war declaration shield".

Recently, the GMs decided to stop enforcing the rules regarding war decs (likely was too much of a pain in the rear for them, so they cut the responsibility). One of those rules was pertaining to using an alt corporation to war dec your main corporation to make it more expensive for others to war dec your main corporation (and thus encourage them not to).

Basically, the war dec cost mechanics are on a bell curve. The first to war dec pays a little. The next pays more. The next, even more. And so on, and so forth.

So if you have money to blow (say, you're a newbie-friendly corp with a decent tax rate (AKA: Eve University)), you set up a half dozen (number may be off) alt corps which keep war decs going against your main corp (Eve University). You have to pay all the war costs, but if some griefer corp comes along and decides "hey, let's go to war with Eve University for the lols", they end up having to pay a billion ISK a week to maintain the war (cost-prohibitive), thus shielding you from wars.

That's a "dec shield". It's not that people -can't- war dec you. It's that people can't afford to, and thus -won't- war dec you.

Eve University is pretty much the poster child for dec shields.

Thanks for explanation makes sense Devs wouldnt deliberately implement dec shield.

Just from what i remembered back then they changed Aliancewide war decs this way to prevent specific aliance (cant remember the name right now) to war dec hundreds of corps and aliances weekly. Seems they later implemented same mechanic for corporations too.

I know your pain, though. I still have assets from long, long ago up in Branch from when FATAL fought the north (Razor and its 17 friends). Deimos, bunch of ceptors. Meh.

Nothing personaly against you but its like they say "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

Its not like FATAL, M.PIRE and T.I.T.S got theyr space without blobbing. In fact the never before seen MC capital ship blobb that helped you get the space in first place + BOB was the reason the whole north united.

That said FATAL and M.PIRE atleast fought valiantly till the end unlike T.I.T.S who hired my corp to help them against north. But they lost theyr 1st station before we even arived and crumbled less then after we arived. Kinda bad i was looking for few more weeks of Fleet Battles against north alongside of FATAL and M.PIRE

Brother Oni

2012-01-17, 07:57 AM

I remember two former enemies talking in a chat room (I think it was EVE Radio), swapping war stories about their various campaigns and battles they had.

One of them joked that they sounded like a Frenchman and a German in a Dutch coffee house in the 1950s and Sprinter's comments just reminded me of them. :smallbiggrin:

Jonzac

2012-01-17, 09:15 AM

Janwin

2012-01-17, 09:18 AM

Nothing personaly against you but its like they say "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

Its not like FATAL, M.PIRE and T.I.T.S got theyr space without blobbing. In fact the never before seen MC capital ship blobb that helped you get the space in first place + BOB was the reason the whole north united.

That said FATAL and M.PIRE atleast fought valiantly till the end unlike T.I.T.S who hired my corp to help them against north. But they lost theyr 1st station before we even arived and crumbled less then after we arived. Kinda bad i was looking for few more weeks of Fleet Battles against north alongside of FATAL and M.PIRE

Oh, believe me. I'm very familiar with the saying. Hence why I say 'meh' about having assets locked up there.

I also have some assets locked in Querious/Period Basis from when Executive Outcomes was down there before the BoB disband. It happens.

And ultimately, regarding the taking of the north...from what I recall, it wasn't FATAL, M.PIRE, etc that blobbed. When you compare a couple hundred capitals to a couple thousand sub-caps, one of those is a blob. The other is 'necessary to even compete'.

That's not saying that MC's capital force was not a major factor in taking the North. But when it took Razor and 17 other alliances to push out FATAL and M.PIRE (because, let's face it, they were really the only forces fighting in the defense), I question being called a blob. 18 alliances (majority of them larger than ours) vs. 2. :0P

They were, however, damn epic fights. The defense of BKG is one that I'll always remember in that game. Total Spartan odds, and we held it for a surprisingly long time considering the odds. :smallwink:

Also, re: capital ship blobs... This makes me chuckle because you likely have the same complaints about my current alliance. *hums innocently*

Janwin

2012-01-17, 09:23 AM

I love EVE, but my biggest problem was that I truely felt that I needed....was required...to have two accounts and dual-box to be successful.

Mining required my Covetor and my second account for industrial ship. Everyone talks about reconing, but then fails to mention that often that scout was their second account they dual-box with.

Just read the EVE blogs, they often mention their second or third account is their neutral alt they use to hold their pirate loot with, or their ORCA they use to swap ships with from a bait to a combat ship.

Love the game, but it is NOT for the truely casual player.

It's not required to have two accounts, but it definitely helps. You -can- do fine with one account, but you better have friends if you ever want to get into a capital class ship (you'll need cynos).

I have two accounts. One has: main PVP character (subs and capitals), trading character, cyno. Other is: industry/science/jump freighter character, Tengu for 0.0 carebearing, cyno.

Pretty much covers all my bases, and allows me to do most things. If I wanted to do mining, I'd have to cross skill one of those existing characters, or make a new account, though. The more accounts, the more you can do.

Eventually, you want to get to a point where you're making enough ISK in game passively (trading, industry, moon goo) that you can fund one or both of your accounts with PLEX.

king.com

2012-01-17, 09:33 AM

Just reactivated my account, names "king com". Hope to see some of you out there. Actually, dont suppose anyone is in a corp looking for members (im still getting used to things at the moment but want to join in on some corp based activities).

Gnoman

2012-01-17, 10:49 AM

I played EVE for awhile, but it ran too slow, and I got tired of getting killed the second I stopped below .8.

pffh

2012-01-17, 11:05 AM

Anyone know anything about the Unified empire (corp) or the Gryphon League (alliance)? Had a chat with a recruiter of theirs and a quick google search doesn't find anything except their site and recruitment posts.

On an unrelated note wow a lot of corps in the recruitment channel were asking for fees for joining. Please tell me this is a scam and not simply the normal thing big alliances do now.

Janwin

2012-01-17, 11:08 AM

If a corp wants to charge you to join, it's a 99.99% chance that they're a Goon wannabe corp trying to scam people.

And no clue about the ones you asked about. Sorry. Never heard of them.

Sprinter

2012-01-17, 11:30 AM

Oh, believe me. I'm very familiar with the saying. Hence why I say 'meh' about having assets locked up there.

I also have some assets locked in Querious/Period Basis from when Executive Outcomes was down there before the BoB disband. It happens.

And ultimately, regarding the taking of the north...from what I recall, it wasn't FATAL, M.PIRE, etc that blobbed. When you compare a couple hundred capitals to a couple thousand sub-caps, one of those is a blob. The other is 'necessary to even compete'.

That's not saying that MC's capital force was not a major factor in taking the North. But when it took Razor and 17 other alliances to push out FATAL and M.PIRE (because, let's face it, they were really the only forces fighting in the defense), I question being called a blob. 18 alliances (majority of them larger than ours) vs. 2. :0P

They were, however, damn epic fights. The defense of BKG is one that I'll always remember in that game. Total Spartan odds, and we held it for a surprisingly long time considering the odds. :smallwink:

Also, re: capital ship blobs... This makes me chuckle because you likely have the same complaints about my current alliance. *hums innocently*

Not sure if you read it correctly but i was just trying to state some facts sounding as neutral as possible. I wise enough to quit 0.0 aliance politics back in december 2005. I was on neither side in whole conflict except for brief times when we were under contract.

The whole "endgame" CCP was promoting quite terrible back then. It often was about Shooting POS shields for hours and it only got worse as time progressed by "we have 50 people they have 50 people lets wait for 100 more backup attitude" most aliances have and later by " I win button " which Titans had. Promoting huge space battle while sometimes even 40 vs 40 battles ended up in unplayable lagg fest was also a no brainer. Well server log back then showed no problems so everything is ok? :smalltongue:

After early 2008 when i stopped playing i dont know whats new in EVE Universe or what aliances/power blocks currently exist. Besides being neutral to all is best with NBSI. That way you have more targets to shoot at. :smallwink:

Btw i also have alot of my stuff in 0.0 including fleet battleship from my time with fatal and M.PIRE except i was wise enough to put it in one of the npc stations which is half way between your former territory and empire space. All my 0.0 assets are in npc stations.

Erloas

2012-01-17, 11:37 AM

I love EVE, but my biggest problem was that I truely felt that I needed....was required...to have two accounts and dual-box to be successful.
...
Love the game, but it is NOT for the truely casual player.
Once you're set up you don't really have to put a lot of time into the game, but it takes a while, and a lot of research, to get to that point.

Even before I thought about getting a second account, and I'm thinking about it again. There is just too much to do in the game to do it with one character. I just don't have the time to justify it.

You can make it with a single character fine enough, you just have to find a good corp.

Eventually, you want to get to a point where you're making enough ISK in game passively (trading, industry, moon goo) that you can fund one or both of your accounts with PLEX.
This is what I've been trying to figure out. I'm not making any money when I'm not logged on, and I know thats not right. Hence looking at planetary interaction right now.
Trading... I need to do more, I'm just not sure where to start that might actually work. Profits on so many things seem so small as to not be worth while because I can't get to the scale of making actual money. At least in a somewhat inactive manner, I can see how to make money on the market if I wanted to spend hours a day hauling stuff around, which I don't.
Manufacturing seems much the same, too much competition to make any real money on a small scale. And having to scour the entire universe for open research points to even get get to the point of being slightly profitable takes a lot of time.
Moon goo seems to be entirely the domain of large alliances, I have nothing to do there.

Just reactivated my account, names "king com". Hope to see some of you out there. Actually, dont suppose anyone is in a corp looking for members (im still getting used to things at the moment but want to join in on some corp based activities).I'm still looking for a corp as well. Not really actively looking, but keep thinking its something I need to do and checking the corp recruiting tool, just haven't talked to any recruiters yet.
So if you find a good corp, let me know.

Edit:
So looking more at the planetary commodities... unless the import/export costs are fairly high, it seems that in many cases focusing on the tier 2, refined commodities, rather then the specialized or advanced commodities is the best way to make money. One guide, unless its been changed and the guide hasn't updated, says it takes 20 of each refined commodity to make an advanced (specialized step inbetween), and with about 6 refined commodities per advanced thats 120, and with many refined selling in the 8-10k range, thats about 1M a piece for the advanced, which is about what they are selling for. It doesn't seem like you gain anything by building most things past refined, with the exception of a few specific specialized pieces needed for POS or T2 production.

Janwin

2012-01-17, 03:05 PM

Edit:
So looking more at the planetary commodities... unless the import/export costs are fairly high, it seems that in many cases focusing on the tier 2, refined commodities, rather then the specialized or advanced commodities is the best way to make money. One guide, unless its been changed and the guide hasn't updated, says it takes 20 of each refined commodity to make an advanced (specialized step inbetween), and with about 6 refined commodities per advanced thats 120, and with many refined selling in the 8-10k range, thats about 1M a piece for the advanced, which is about what they are selling for. It doesn't seem like you gain anything by building most things past refined, with the exception of a few specific specialized pieces needed for POS or T2 production.

Pretty much. I just mass produce mechanical parts. Easy to do and the planets needed are common. Four material gathering planets and one that is nothing but advanced factories.

Sprinter

2012-01-17, 07:56 PM

I love EVE, but my biggest problem was that I truely felt that I needed....was required...to have two accounts and dual-box to be successful.

Mining required my Covetor and my second account for industrial ship. Everyone talks about reconing, but then fails to mention that often that scout was their second account they dual-box with.

Just read the EVE blogs, they often mention their second or third account is their neutral alt they use to hold their pirate loot with, or their ORCA they use to swap ships with from a bait to a combat ship.

Love the game, but it is NOT for the truely casual player.

I my last last corporation i was one of few exceptions that didnt have second account and even before when i was in much more relaxed corp of old friends from noob corp there were friends with two accounts. Even most of my RL friends had second account.

But it wasnt always so. Back then when i started only big industrial types with t2 BPOs had more then one account. However CCP added much more skills specialisations to learn and suddently you needed 2 accounts for something that normaly one account could handle before. For example a raven pilot barely able to fly Battleships with less then 500k SP in missiles could solo pretty much every level 4 mission available until they overhauled missille skills. Drones for example had only 2 skills that was in times when every battleship could launch up to 10 heavy drones and Dominix up to 20 and every drone type had the same tracking and almost same speed. There were no cap ships and less ships specialised t2 ships too.

Paying for second account when 15$ for 1st one month is quite alot nah that was too much for me. Sure there was a possibility to pay with ingame money for the second account but then EVE would become like a second job and one im paying for :)

Btw "professional" pvpers from last corp didnt dualbox they had computer with main account logged while was alt logged on laptop.

JusticeZero

2012-01-17, 08:35 PM

CCP apparently just nerfed/is about to nerf the holy heck out of hot-drops, so those are becoming a nonissue and tactics are going to change again.

Super-capital and capital ships are now only effective in combat against other super caps and caps; they've had 20% of their HP sliced off, they can only fly fighters and fighter-bombers out of their 'drone' bays, they can't hit things smaller than caps. Also, if you log off in combat, after 15 minutes, if you've been under attack, it tacks another 15 minutes on, ad infinitum, so no more logging off when the fight goes south.

In short, the Death Star type ships are now dependent on smaller ships to defend them, or else eventually some hotshot pilot is going to be able to ram a torpedo up their exhaust port and there's nothing they can do to stop it. In other news, it's disturbing how WRONG a basic Star Wars reference sounds when I write it out like that, and I didn't even mention the trench.

In other news, I just got the client running on a laptop, and could use a 21 day trial if anyone who needs the reward cares to hook me up.

Erloas

2012-01-17, 10:52 PM

Send me your email and I'll send you the longer recruit trial.

So far it seems like the skill books are the highest isk/LP out of everything.

Also in planetary interaction, the slider for intensity doesn't seem to be working for me. And so far none of the planets I've looked at show any other player's stations, but I don't see that being correct.

And in other news I just passed 15M SP.

Sprinter

2012-01-18, 08:24 AM

CCP apparently just nerfed/is about to nerf the holy heck out of hot-drops, so those are becoming a nonissue and tactics are going to change again.

Super-capital and capital ships are now only effective in combat against other super caps and caps; they've had 20% of their HP sliced off, they can only fly fighters and fighter-bombers out of their 'drone' bays, they can't hit things smaller than caps. Also, if you log off in combat, after 15 minutes, if you've been under attack, it tacks another 15 minutes on, ad infinitum, so no more logging off when the fight goes south.

In short, the Death Star type ships are now dependent on smaller ships to defend them, or else eventually some hotshot pilot is going to be able to ram a torpedo up their exhaust port and there's nothing they can do to stop it. In other news, it's disturbing how WRONG a basic Star Wars reference sounds when I write it out like that, and I didn't even mention the trench.

Wow they started to fix hot drops now ? :smallconfused: What year is today? please tell me its still 2008. Some would think fixing problematic ingame mechanics has priority before implementing silly things like walking around ingame basses.

And in other news I just passed 15M SP

Congrats! how much time training 1M SP takes now?

Erloas

2012-01-18, 10:19 AM

Congrats! how much time training 1M SP takes now?
Well I reactivated on the 7th and hit 15m on the 17th... however I don't remember exactly how many SP I had when I started back up, my first post just says I had 1.8M SP refunded. I think it was about 14.4M SP with the refunded points. The attribute bonus change has made things a lot faster, the full set of +3 implants (well charisma might be +2) also help a lot. And now I'll have a point of reference for when I hit 16M to compare to.
I could probably also extrapolate from some long skill too, could check cruiser 5 or BS 5 for points/time.

I finally got a planet control station set up. Took a bit of getting used to, and you really can't do much until you've trained up the upgraded command center quite a bit. So while its *possible* to build tier 3 items from one planet, I don't think you can do it all at once, and you'll have to stock pile tier 2 items and switch factories and resource nodes around to do it.

And at this point I'm still not sure where I want to go. I've fallen into the sandbox trap. Kind of like the stealth bombers... but not currently doing any fleet, or even small gang, PvP to make it practical. Same with the interdictors, I do love the ship design though. Even thinking about the more exploratory side of things, as I never did any of that before, and those wormholes... well they didn't exist last time I played. Then there is some marketing and manufacturing stuff, not something I want to do full time, but I should at least do some. I haven't even done the hard missions. And the thought of going pirate is always there. Small scale alliance and gang PvP is also something I want to start up... but I need to find a corp for that and there is a good chance I'll have to move half way across the universe and restart anything I start to do in industry.

Janwin

2012-01-18, 11:37 AM

those are becoming a nonissue and tactics are going to change again.

Super-capital and capital ships are now only effective in combat against other super caps and caps; they've had 20% of their HP sliced off, they can only fly fighters and fighter-bombers out of their 'drone' bays, they can't hit things smaller than caps. Also, if you log off in combat, after 15 minutes, if you've been under attack, it tacks another 15 minutes on, ad infinitum, so no more logging off when the fight goes south.

In short, the Death Star type ships are now dependent on smaller ships to defend them, or else eventually some hotshot pilot is going to be able to ram a torpedo up their exhaust port and there's nothing they can do to stop it. In other news, it's disturbing how WRONG a basic Star Wars reference sounds when I write it out like that, and I didn't even mention the trench.

The nerf sucked, yes, but it wasn't nearly as devastating as you make it sound. My alliance continues to hotdrop supers and other ships all over the place, and devastates enemies. Yes, you're a bit more concerned about having a sub capital fleet available if needed, but titans can still track BSes with their guns.

The logoffski mechanic is one of the few there that I agreed with implementing, because let's face it, logoffski was bull****. I do not have a super, and I do not want a super. However, when you have to dedicate a character to flying that ship and ONLY that ship (it can't be used for anything else), and you have to spend 20 billion+ for a supercarrier or upwards of 100 billion for a titan...you kind of do deserve to have a devastating weapon of war in your hands. Something that can take on mass quantities of cheaper ships (down to two tiers below, like any other ship (so no, a super shouldn't be able to hit a BC, cruiser or frig, but should be able to kill loads of BSes before it gets taken down)).

Trying to relegate them to anti-structure ships is...retarded. And simply punishes the players who have invested time and resources into getting them.

Getting rid of logoffski actually would have fixed many more of the problems that they had, like their ridiculous tank. If they can't disappear, you will eventually melt it (or they'll pull in backup), even without the 20% nerf.

But eh, that's been debated quite lengthily on the EVE forums. Repeatedly.

An Image Regarding Capitals (http://d35dgn2pdc8wsn.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/supers.jpeg) :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Jonzac

2012-01-19, 11:33 AM

Ahh.. the more we talk the more I want to play. Until i remember that without a good corp the game did not fulfill that potential for me.

I love manufacturing. I loved in it the Star Wars Galaxies, when I had to search for the different material levels to make a good powerhammer. I love EVE for the complexity, but without your own POS or a good corp with POSs and research availability its just too hard for me on my casual play time to actually move ahead and I just haven't really liked missioning at all.

Erloas

2012-01-20, 01:38 PM

I love EVE for the complexity, but without your own POS or a good corp with POSs and research availability its just too hard for me on my casual play time to actually move ahead and I just haven't really liked missioning at all.
I think there are quite a few corps, especially the ones on the industry side of things, that are open to casual levels of play. I know I at least see it a fair amount in recruiting pages. And the game does very much lend itself to a casual approach and the seemingly older player base means a lot more people have real life to worry about.

That said, I haven't yet found a corp either. But thats because I really haven't tried much.

It really is quite amazing how much of a difference there is in the planetary commodities prices. It also doesn't seem like its worth the effort to get to the advanced products when the time to isk value is so much better at the second step, that also seems to be where all the market movement is at, the high tier ones barely move.

And why is it that whenever I want to manufacturer anything I'm always short on Isogen? This time all I wanted was a few thrashers to mess around with and play with the pirates in a local low sec system. Using just reprocessed loot I had enough of almost everything to make 5 runs, except Isogen, I didn't even have enough for 1 run. Zydine I had enough for 1, but not quite 2.
On the plus side, in looking for Isogen on the market I found someone selling 750000 units for 33% below market value. So a net gain of 15M for the time it takes to do 8 jumps in a hauler.

NEO|Phyte

2012-01-20, 02:06 PM

Regarding this talk of corps and such, I've been sitting in an empty corp ever since I found out the name wasn't already taken.

Currently sitting in Amarr space, but I haven't bought any offices or any such things, so if we wanted to try and make a proper corp of it, all we'd have to do is decide on where to make home and I could get my stuff there one way or another.

Erloas

2012-01-20, 03:37 PM

I wouldn't mind a GITP corp, but with only about 6 players here, and on different time zones and different game focuses, and with 2-3 of them already in corps, I don't think it would happen.

Though I do want to get out of this stupid NPC corp with its 11% tax rate. I wouldn't mind flying with anyone here, and maybe us newerish player could work together and find a bigger corp to join later.
I just don't want to join another corp where I'm the only one on most of the time I get to play or we never do anything because we all focused on different things.

Send a message or convo me in game and we can talk about what we might want to do.

And after the bit with the isogen I decided to look up a bit on mining again. It seems you can make about 4-5M isk per hour simply mining veldspar in high sec space with moderate mining skills and a BS. The hulk seems to be around 10-12M isk/hr.
Not amazing, but pretty good. I'm thinking about it for times when I don't have time to do much else, mine while I'm doing market stuff, while I'm cleaning, managing my planets, cleaning the fish tanks, that sort of thing.

Miklus

2012-01-20, 06:19 PM

I have found that you CAN make a profit in manufacturing...if you can find an available production line. Even worse is the research facilities. They are booked for the next 70 days...

So I guess I need to join a corp and get exclusive rights? Or is there an area in reasonable secure space where there are available production lines? Like in the north-west part of Caldari? How do I get past a region of low-sec space anyway? Make a run for it?

I would rather stay in high-sec. I don't want to sit in nul-sec and make ammo for some corp for no profit just to get ganked when their space station gets taken down by some other corp.

It is annoying to have to rely on these production lines, can you make your own space station?

illyrus

2012-01-20, 08:10 PM

This post is going to come across as very egotistical, however I think I have some worthwhile knowledge to impart to newer players. If reading an ego laden post bothers you than just stop here.

I've been playing Eve for awhile ('07 player here). I do about 90% PvP and 10% other when I play. Going to talk about money making and risk aversion for a bit below.

There seems to be a huge separation between pvp risk averse players and players willing to take risks. Why are some people perfectly content to risk 25% of their total wealth trying to play the market but are afraid to risk 5% of their wealth shooting at sleepers in a WH?

My corp lived in a C2 WH with a HS and C1 "static" connection. A C1 connection is the weakest WH there is that should also have some of the worst loot. A few of us would occasionally runs sites using T1 battlecruisers in the connected C1 and we'd make about 400-500 million ISK split between 3 people over the course of 2 hours. When doing it solo people would make 50-100 million ISK an hour. So let's say you get blown up every 4 hours, you're still coming out WAY AHEAD. And if you know what you're doing dieing while PvEing like we did will be an occurrence you might have happen once every few weeks. In all honesty I think our top PvE death count for a single player for 1.5 years in WH space was 3 ships lost, so fairly inconsequential to the ISK you can make.

PI in WH space made each of us around 300-500 million ISK a month profit per character and we were all lazy about it.

That's not to mention some of the profits we made from attacking others. It wasn't that rare to have a T3 ship drop 500 million ISK in loot and one of our guys got 8 billion ISK in a session (effectively never having to earn another dime in Eve again for the type ships he flies) from doing some scouting and making a lucky hit.

Yes, you will get shot, yes you will die, but you are going to make leaps and bounds better ISK than mining in high sec. Trading is another beast in that you're risking way more ISK than going PvPing for ideally excellent ISK over time. At the end of the day though whether trading or entering dangerous space you're just risking wealth.

"But I'm afraid of PvP, all those people will be flying T2 and T3 ships and all I'll have is my little battlecruiser. The only way you can win is by out-blobbing/out-ISKing your opposition":

exhibit A (this was my first PvP video so its bad quality, I wanted to link it to show what a cheap ship could do against expensive ships against the odds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiZsAee10O8&t=4m25s&hd=1

That's about a 75 million ISK T1 BC versus a 750 million ISK T3 Tengu, 500 million ISK T3 Legion, and probably a 70-80 million ISK Drake. I had no fleet boosts or anything like that, the other character in fleet just had a scan ship to get me out if the WH closed. I didn't even do a good job managing my modules in that fight and don't even have any worthwhile implants (like 3 million ISK in implants).

I could link other fights I've done of against tougher odds, but I'm not flying as cheap of a ship in them because I've made so much ISK flying in high reward decent risk places.

One thing I didn't see from skimming the other posts; get EFT (Eve Fitting Tool) and use it as a sort of "character creator for ships". Link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359 I really like it for PvP but it works just as well for PvE.

Erloas

2012-01-21, 11:22 AM

So I guess I need to join a corp and get exclusive rights? Or is there an area in reasonable secure space where there are available production lines? Like in the north-west part of Caldari? How do I get past a region of low-sec space anyway? Make a run for it?

...

It is annoying to have to rely on these production lines, can you make your own space station?
Manufacturing locations I've actually found quite a few. You can see all the available spaces in the entire region from your science tab. The research labs seem to be almost impossible to find though, and you really need to get ME to at least 5-10 to make any real money off of manufacturing.
If you are in the busier regions of high sec it can be very hard to find a spot, however you're probably not more then a few jumps away from a lower activity system that is still high-sec but will have a lot more spaces free. Molden Heath for example is about 50/50 high-sec and low-sec, I'm one jump away from Heimatar, and there are plenty of open manufacturing locations here.

You can, in theory, make your own station, in practice is more work then a single person is really capable of. Not only are they very resource intensive but you also have to be able to defend them and most likely have the resources to take a system from an alliance in the first place.

For the most part you're pretty safe just jumping through low-sec space as long as you do it manually and aren't auto-piloting. As long as you check the map for obvious gate camps, ie lots of ships destroyed in a system in a short period of time, you are pretty safe, of course when the gate camp starts no ships have been lost in the system yet. I'm not sure how common they even are any more in low-sec space any more. Most of what you have to worry about in low-sec is pirates, and for the most part they aren't camping gates because they don't have the tanks to survive the sentry guns, they are out there looking for people ratting, mining, picking up PI stuff, running missions, etc.

There seems to be a huge separation between pvp risk averse players and players willing to take risks. Why are some people perfectly content to risk 25% of their total wealth trying to play the market but are afraid to risk 5% of their wealth shooting at sleepers in a WH?
Mostly because the market you aren't so much risking your wealth as investing it, hoping for a better return. If you are even moderately competent in the market you aren't risking anything, you might be tying up 25% of your income but you can easily get most if not all of your money back out of it, and really a bad time at it usually results in only a small % gain instead of the big gain you were hoping for.

Me personally, WHs are completely new to me, they didn't exist last time I was playing. I'm getting ready to start checking them out, I just haven't got to it yet because I'm relearning the game one change at a time.

That's not to mention some of the profits we made from attacking others. It wasn't that rare to have a T3 ship drop 500 million ISK in loot and one of our guys got 8 billion ISK in a session (effectively never having to earn another dime in Eve again for the type ships he flies) from doing some scouting and making a lucky hit.Yes, but one thing about this is its a completely unknown thing. You might go months, or even years, without hitting someone that drops even 1B isk worth of stuff for you to pick up. You also have to consider where all of their money is coming from, if they've dropped 500M worth of loot, and you generally only get maybe 1/3 to 1/5 of the stuff on a ship when it pops, that means that setup was worth 1.5 to 2.5B isk, and lets say they do the general "don't risk more then 5/10% of your income at a time" thats 15B to 50B worth of income that they are apparently making some other way then PvP (because people loosing those value of items when they aren't capital ships) are making their money some other way, to the point where their "I can afford to loose this amount" is more then you'll ever need. So apparently what they are doing is much more profitable then what you are doing.

There is also the very simple fact that not everyone enjoys the same thing. I simply don't have the personality to be a pirate. Its not even the risk to my own stuff, its that I derive no pleasure at all, and really it is against my nature, to attack other people and take their stuff if they weren't looking for a fight. I have no problem with alliance and faction warfare because thats what you signed up for. Blowing up someone while their mining is no fun, even if it is profitable, there is no challenge other then finding and locking them down. Kill mails are meaningless to me.

And if you know what you're doing dieing while PvEing like we did will be an occurrence you might have happen once every few weeks. In all honesty I think our top PvE death count for a single player for 1.5 years in WH space was 3 ships lost, so fairly inconsequential to the ISK you can make.
The question here is how long did it take you to get to that point? When you're first learning new areas you'll end up dieing a lot. Sure once you figure it out and get it down you can make a lot of money, but until you get the money built up to afford the losses its hard to just fly into the unknown. Especially since, early on, what you can afford to loose isn't enough to do most of those high paying areas, so you either run into situations that seem like you can never or you know you just don't have the income to attempt them in the proper ship.
And as you've eluded to, your doing it with a corp, that makes everything much easier and much less risky. And having a good corp really is the key to everything in the game.

And the most important part you seem to be overlooking is that not everyone finds the same things fun. If it weren't for people that loved the industrial side of things you wouldn't even have ships to buy and there wouldn't be any T2 items on the market. Without people watching and playing the market then that loot you've been picking up wouldn't really be worth anything. And I couldn't even imagine where the game would be without people mining, but I think we would find every ship prohibitively expensive.

Personally I just don't have the time to do a lot of stuff, the learning side of things especially, so I'm looking for easier, steady income things to do for 5-6 days a week where I don't have much time and work in learning about the high income things in the few days I have more time.

illyrus

2012-01-21, 01:47 PM

Note: While I talk about W-space a lot here, I don't believe it is the end all be all. I do think that for a small group of people from 1 to 50 you can probably have an easier time making money and getting appropriate sized PvP in comparison to low sec and 0.0 (I've lived in both before as well).

Mostly because the market you aren't so much risking your wealth as investing it, hoping for a better return. If you are even moderately competent in the market you aren't risking anything, you might be tying up 25% of your income but you can easily get most if not all of your money back out of it, and really a bad time at it usually results in only a small % gain instead of the big gain you were hoping for.

I've played the market before and know people who have as well to great success (or I count people who have 100+ billion in their wallet from market play as having great success at it). The thing is markets fluctuate and a few %s or can cause you to take a huge loss. We've destroyed the market on goods before so we could make a large profit and the people who invested the wrong way lost way more ISK than they would have had we blown up a few ships of theirs.

But lets pretend that's not true and all you suffer is making less ISK. You can view doing WH stuff in much the same manner. If over a week I make 2 billion ISK and am blown up 3 times losing 100 million each time then I've made 1.7 billion ISK.

Yes, but one thing about this is its a completely unknown thing. You might go months, or even years, without hitting someone that drops even 1B isk worth of stuff for you to pick up. You also have to consider where all of their money is coming from, if they've dropped 500M worth of loot, and you generally only get maybe 1/3 to 1/5 of the stuff on a ship when it pops, that means that setup was worth 1.5 to 2.5B isk, and lets say they do the general "don't risk more then 5/10% of your income at a time" thats 15B to 50B worth of income that they are apparently making some other way then PvP (because people loosing those value of items when they aren't capital ships) are making their money some other way, to the point where their "I can afford to loose this amount" is more then you'll ever need. So apparently what they are doing is much more profitable then what you are doing.

First of all you get about 50% barring them using crazy thermodynamics to burn out their modules. Second of all those expensive ships come from other WH dwellers who are doing the exact same PvE as we do of hitting sleepers. I don't have to wonder, I could easily make several billion ISK a week chain collapsing for sleeper sites if I was so inclined. Its not odd at all to encounter that level of ISK on a ship in WH space. I mean my first PvP video featured me flying 75-125 million ISK ships, my next one I made something like 6 months later I was flying 750 million to 1 billion ISK ships in 1 v many fights. That should suggest the sort of income jump I experienced. I'm not a special case here, its pretty much across the board for anyone who lives in a WH bigger than C1 (and plenty of C1 people too).

There is also the very simple fact that not everyone enjoys the same thing. I simply don't have the personality to be a pirate. Its not even the risk to my own stuff, its that I derive no pleasure at all, and really it is against my nature, to attack other people and take their stuff if they weren't looking for a fight. I have no problem with alliance and faction warfare because thats what you signed up for. Blowing up someone while their mining is no fun, even if it is profitable, there is no challenge other then finding and locking them down. Kill mails are meaningless to me.

I didn't talk at all about piracy. People in WH space fly billion+ ISK ships into combat because their loss isn't much to them and the increased performance is worth it. In the video I linked the reason I blew up that little helios was it was trying to combat scan me down so it could drop 6 ships on me to kill me. I found it and attacked it first so they'd have to react to the threat as opposed to get to completely setup for what would have been a 5 v 1 instead of a 3 v 1 in their favor. About 75% of my PvP in WH space has been where the other side is looking to blow me up, only 25% is where I'm engaging people who are not looking for a fight.

The question here is how long did it take you to get to that point? When you're first learning new areas you'll end up dieing a lot. Sure once you figure it out and get it down you can make a lot of money, but until you get the money built up to afford the losses its hard to just fly into the unknown. Especially since, early on, what you can afford to loose isn't enough to do most of those high paying areas, so you either run into situations that seem like you can never or you know you just don't have the income to attempt them in the proper ship.

The person I quoted with the highest deaths was someone new to WH space and Eve in general. Yes we showed him the ropes to Eve during that time but we were all new to WH space ourselves.

And as you've eluded to, your doing it with a corp, that makes everything much easier and much less risky. And having a good corp really is the key to everything in the game.

Having friends in an MMO makes it more enjoyable in general and decreases the learning curve considerably, yes. Keep in mind though that we're not doing it with a corp of 50+ people. We don't openly recruit as we're just a small group of friends. A large turnout for us is 4 people, on average its just 1 or 2. Heck we had a small coalition of corps/alliances attack our WH trying to push us out who numbered 35+ pilots and we had 3 combat pilots to defend. We still beat them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1czz_v9z2w&hd=1

And the most important part you seem to be overlooking is that not everyone finds the same things fun. If it weren't for people that loved the industrial side of things you wouldn't even have ships to buy and there wouldn't be any T2 items on the market. Without people watching and playing the market then that loot you've been picking up wouldn't really be worth anything. And I couldn't even imagine where the game would be without people mining, but I think we would find every ship prohibitively expensive.

I don't have any problem with people playing the market (as I've said I've done it myself). I have a hard time believing that many people are actually engaged by the game when mining. I don't recall any promo Eve videos that feature someone mining for the whole video with the narration saying "Mine many different types of asteroids and transfer them from your cargo bay into your jet can, then come pick it up with a hauler later. The universe is yours!"

I suspect that people go mining to fund other more fun activities. I think that from talking with others they seem to think that you have to mine and do incredibly boring activities to start out and then finally after doing it 6+ months you can start doing whatever you want.

Also its not like I've never dabbled in production, we created nanite repair paste from scratch and combat drugs from the base material (we didn't go mine K-space ladar sites for them). I enjoy that form of production because I get to see immediate benefit (I know that we're directly using those items and not someone I'll never meet). I know plenty of WH people who produce T3s (taken that's the end product of all WH PvE) that are far from pure industrialists.

In W-space its not one where everyone PvPs all the time or everyone PvEs all the time. Pretty much everyone does some of both and everyone makes a good profit regardless of where their focus is.

Personally I just don't have the time to do a lot of stuff, the learning side of things especially, so I'm looking for easier, steady income things to do for 5-6 days a week where I don't have much time and work in learning about the high income things in the few days I have more time.

It looks like you invest more time in the game than I do. My average play time is something like 10 hours a week. PI for 400 million ISK a month for me to about 30 minutes of that time a week.

Erloas

2012-01-21, 03:09 PM

First of all you get about 50% barring them using crazy thermodynamics to burn out their modules. This doesn't seem at all right to me. As checking kill mails, which I only did in passing, but checked a few more just now to see, shows the value of items destroyed vs dropped was at best 40%, in all of the others, especially t2 ships, the destroyed vs looted was closer to 5-15% of the value.
And from the looks of the kill mails its usually several vs 1, or a pirate hitting someone that can't fight back.
I've seen very few people, other the pirates whom specially target the unprepared, that come out ahead in the loot vs losses in PvP. In fact, you have to realize its not possible for even 50% of people to come out ahead in PvP. Counting destroyed vs looted, even if 33% of the value is lootable, that still means 66% of people are coming out behind in PvP. Its simple math, with pretty high losses of components on death, the amount made from PvP *has* to be less then the amount put into it. Unless you happen to be in that top 10% of players.
Short of only picking targets that can't fight back, or being part of a gang (and usually outnumbering the opponent) there is not a lot of money to be made for a new player. Of course in the fleet and gang side of things, that is a lot different.

The times when I was playing before, whenever it came to PvP you would usually spend long periods of time looking for other people, short periods of chase, and an even shorter period of fighting. It was fun, but it wasn't uncommon for you to spend 10x as much time flying around looking for a fight as you ever did fighting. That has probably changed some, especially with things like incursions and WH's funneling people together more.

As for the WH's themselves... I can't say much about them because I have yet to see one. And for new players, unless the tutorial shows anything about them (which I kind of doubt) there really isn't a good way of knowing about them without another player to help you along or to find out about them off the game.

Really, your whole posts comes across as "this is the right way to play the game" and other methods of play are wrong. And even making the most isk is not a goal for everyone. It also comes across as very biased towards what you want out of the game and thats not the same as what other people want. It also has the tint of an old player that doesn't actually remember what its like to start out in the game.

As for mining, I have meet more then a few people that really enjoy it. Same with manufacturing and marketing. It isn't the majority of players, and you are right that it doesn't make for an exciting advertisement, but that doesn't mean some people don't like it. We've already got several people in this thread, of maybe a dozen posters, that like manufacturing, hauling, exploring, and other non-combat types of gameplay.

edit:
And in general your numbers don't really add up to me.
You're making 400M a month from PIs, so from manufacturing/industry and the market, but you just said that manufacturing and market isn't the way to make money. You're making about 75M an hour doing C1 WHs (450M/3ppl/2hrs). You're playing 10 hrs a week, so if you spend all your time doing C1s thats 750M+400M from PI, you can replace your 1B ship once a week. Thats more then manageable with PvE, any amount of PvP and I don't see that happening. Especially since PvP income is much less stead and only loosing 1 ship a week in PvP means your running a lot, exceptionally good, or just cherry picking all of your fights for little chance of loss (those types of fights I don't find that fun) and that also means much less time spent making money.

And when looking at alternatives, I've seen posts saying people making 50-100M/hr mining with good skills and a good gang, so pretty much making the same as what you are saying. Even a solo miner, with 0 risk of loss, is making decent money, and when in a gang and in null sec (where you have a much lower risk of loss as well) you're making the same or more and with little risk with a gang.
I'm not saying your method is not a very viable and practical method of making money, but by your own numbers, you aren't coming out ahead compared to other methods of making money.

illyrus

2012-01-21, 04:03 PM

As for mining, I have meet more then a few people that really enjoy it. Same with manufacturing and marketing. It isn't the majority of players, and you are right that it doesn't make for an exciting advertisement, but that doesn't mean some people don't like it. We've already got several people in this thread, of maybe a dozen posters, that like manufacturing, hauling, exploring, and other non-combat types of gameplay.

To which 90% of the newer players fall into because they don't know how to do the rest. I bet quite a few of them would like to actually get into the spaceships side of Eve and building and deploying starbases and carving out a little system to call their own so they can construct their own sandcastle. I'm trying to provide numbers and advice and examples to show that you don't have to "level up" for 6 months mining etc or join some huge alliance to be able to build that sandcastle.

This doesn't seem at all right to me. As checking kill mails, which I only did in passing, but checked a few more just now to see, shows the value of items destroyed vs dropped was at best 40%, in all of the others, especially t2 ships, the destroyed vs looted was closer to 5-15% of the value.

That is due to the ship's cost. The ship can't drop itself or its rigs so depending upon the gear it can skew things. For WH PvP you can easily have a 125 million ISK hull with things like domination warp disruptors and pith a-type large shield boosters etc where the item may cost more than the entire ship.

And from the looks of the kill mails its usually several vs 1, or a pirate hitting someone that can't fight back.
I've seen very few people, other the pirates whom specially target the unprepared, that come out ahead in the loot vs losses in PvP. In fact, you have to realize its not possible for even 50% of people to come out ahead in PvP. Counting destroyed vs looted, even if 33% of the value is lootable, that still means 66% of people are coming out behind in PvP. Its simple math, with pretty high losses of components on death, the amount made from PvP *has* to be less then the amount put into it. Unless you happen to be in that top 10% of players.
Short of only picking targets that can't fight back, or being part of a gang (and usually outnumbering the opponent) there is not a lot of money to be made for a new player. Of course in the fleet and gang side of things, that is a lot different.

That's because most people are completely afraid of loss of any kind so they gang up and only gank targets. If they encounter a good pilot or two then their entire fleet might get wiped out because they've never learned to fight on their own. I'm far from the best pilot but I can link you to multiple fights where I've flown solo and taken on 4-6+ people who have come to kill me in PvP ships and I either kill most/all of them or kill 1 or 2 and get away. I didn't say that most people make more ISK from going into WH space and just PvPing, I said that you can make some ISK from good fights and that the PvE can bring you some very nice rewards. My corp actually makes more ISK than we lose in PvP and we do it with the willingness to fight against the odds. You won't start out that way but if you're willing to take some risks then you probably will end up that way.

Yes you have to be better than average to do well in PvP when not ganking. The average pilot is really bad at the game so its not like the threshold is set very high though.

Really, your whole posts comes across as "this is the right way to play the game" and other methods of play are wrong. And even making the most isk is not a goal for everyone. It also comes across as very biased towards what you want out of the game and thats not the same as what other people want. It also has the tint of an old player that doesn't actually remember what its like to start out in the game.

Our corp is mostly made up of RL friends and friends of friends. I have a pretty good handle on what new players know because I've spent countless hours teaching friends and friends of friends how to play the game. I can build a ship that a 2 month old player can fly well just as easily as I can a ship that my character with good skills can fly. And then I can instruct them on how to fly it. Some of my happiest moments in Eve is having a guy join up who couldn't take on an even strength ship in 1 on 1 play and teaching him how to fight and play the game where he is later going 1 v many and coming out ahead more often than not.

As I said at the beginning, it is an ego laden post, but I knew I couldn't post the numbers I did or post any examples without coming off as a prick or else diluting the point of my post (I'm not a skilled writer). I think newer players get screwed over by the older community because no one is really willing to talk about what they do to get ahead in the game.

I wish I had had some egotistical prick to tell me how you can make the sort of ISK I can make now so I didn't waste the first portion of the game doing boring stuff and getting bored and quiting.

Starwulf

2012-01-21, 04:44 PM

As I said at the beginning, it is an ego laden post, but I knew I couldn't post the numbers I did or post any examples without coming off as a prick or else diluting the point of my post (I'm not a skilled writer). I think newer players get screwed over by the older community because no one is really willing to talk about what they do to get ahead in the game.

I wish I had had some egotistical prick to tell me how you can make the sort of ISK I can make now so I didn't waste the first portion of the game doing boring stuff and getting bored and quiting.

I think what Erloas is trying to say, is that not everyone enjoys PvP. Not everyone cares about making a ton of ISK. Some people just want to mine, or craft, in peace. You got what you wanted out of the game by killing other players with a couple of friends. That's great! Glad you enjoyed the game. But not everyone is the same way. Other people have different ways of having fun. I don't even play EVE(but have followed this thread from the start), and even I can tell that I myself would fall on the "Mine and craft" side of the game, as I have never enjoyed PvPing.

Picture it this way: You start playing FFXI(MMO). I come along and tell you that the only way to get enjoyment out of the game(because, hey, I was a very successful FFXI player, and pretty well known on my server), is to level a monk to 99, get 7-8 different sets of gear(Elemental Resist, Chakra Swap, Eva, Accuracy, Attack, Accuracy/Attack combo, Accuracy/Eva combo, Attack/Eva Combo, Chi-Blast swap, etc), and then go test your skills by soloing the biggest monsters you can. You probably wouldn't enjoy the game very much, because you're a different person from who I am, and enjoy different things then I do. That's pretty much what Erloas is saying. Not everyone plays a game for the same reason as another person does.

Miklus

2012-01-21, 05:27 PM

I don't want to do PvP anytime yet, because people like illyrus are going to take me apart. At the very least, I need money to buy a killer ship before I go on a rampage.

I have already done some mining, and it was about as exiting as watching paint dry.

As strange as it sounds, it is actually the economic side of the game that interrests me. I'm still trying to come up with some kind of supervillan plan, like cornering the marked for Isogen or something. I'm open for ideas.

king.com

2012-01-21, 06:07 PM

I don't want to do PvP anytime yet, because people like illyrus are going to take me apart.

Yea, same with me, plan to get with a corp of people who know what their doing and follow along.

Brother Oni

2012-01-21, 06:12 PM

I wish I had had some egotistical prick to tell me how you can make the sort of ISK I can make now so I didn't waste the first portion of the game doing boring stuff and getting bored and quiting.

To be honest, you're not really selling your point of view very well by adopting that tone.
Maybe it works for you, but to less dedicated or competitive players, it's obviously not working.

I'm still trying to come up with some kind of supervillan plan, like cornering the marked for Isogen or something. I'm open for ideas.

Good luck with that - according to the last QEN, ~19million units of isogen was used for ship production alone in a month, never mind any other sort of manufacturing.

I know my wife had cornered the market in her region on some salvage components quite effectively, so I know it's possible, but you have to pick your product carefully. :smallbiggrin:

illyrus

2012-01-21, 06:26 PM

Picture it this way: You start playing FFXI(MMO). I come along and tell you that the only way to get enjoyment out of the game(because, hey, I was a very successful FFXI player, and pretty well known on my server), is to level a monk to 99, get 7-8 different sets of gear(Elemental Resist, Chakra Swap, Eva, Accuracy, Attack, Accuracy/Attack combo, Accuracy/Eva combo, Attack/Eva Combo, Chi-Blast swap, etc), and then go test your skills by soloing the biggest monsters you can. You probably wouldn't enjoy the game very much, because you're a different person from who I am, and enjoy different things then I do. That's pretty much what Erloas is saying. Not everyone plays a game for the same reason as another person does.

I never said my way was the only way to play. I wanted to speak from my perspective and show a different side of things.

Eve is a game where a huge amount of people never experience 90% of the game due to wanting to avoid PvP as they're afraid of the large loss when your ship goes pop. There is a ton of PvE content they won't see. They'll never build a T3 or own their own station for example. I will switch tacks and discuss from a purely industrial standpoint.

Purely industrial example:
You have pure industrialists living out of C1 WHs who never fight or hit sleepers and make 10-20 billion ISK a week in profit just doing specific manufacturing chains. They can't do that in HS due to how the mechanics work. They took some risks and are reaping a huge profit without ever having to engage in PvP. While a starting character couldn't do this (requires an initial investment) 2-4 two month old characters could setup chains where they're making first a few hundred million then a few billion ISK a week and then move into being able to do the 10-20 billion ISK a week chain.

Those industrialists could then move on to play the market with tens of billions of ISK in their wallet and form an industrial empire. Its not that they couldn't have reached this point through just staying safe 100% of the time, it would just take several years of difficult play and razor thin margins instead of a few months.

Erloas

2012-01-21, 06:29 PM

To which 90% of the newer players fall into because they don't know how to do the rest. I bet quite a few of them would like to actually get into the spaceships side of Eve and building and deploying starbases and carving out a little system to call their own so they can construct their own sandcastle. I'm trying to provide numbers and advice and examples to show that you don't have to "level up" for 6 months mining etc or join some huge alliance to be able to build that sandcastle.
I don't see this at all. Even 6 years ago when I played the first time, mining was never seen as the fast money. It was usually the least risky option with reasonable income. I think for the most part ratting and missions always seemed like the "way to go" to make money and get ahead in EVE.
Mining was often seen as a necessary evil if you wanted to go into manufacturing or the sovereignty game. And T2 production was where the real money was, although at that point it was almost completely locked down already.

And the building your own sandcastle thing was the realm of the alliances only, which does seem to have changed with the WHs now.

And for mining, I brought it up on my own, just thinking about ways of making supplemental income, not as advice for someone else to do. Mostly because there are a lot of times, like as I'm typing this right now, where I couldn't be doing any sort of combat, but I could be sitting in a ship mining right now, making money while I do something else.

For the most part what I want to do in the game is what you are doing now. I'm mostly just arguing a point.
But in that video, you might not be flying a super expensive ship, but you're hardly a new pilot. You've obviously got quite a bit of T2 gear (guns at least, with T2 ammo, can't tell with the rest of the stuff). This is hardly an example of what a new player can even start to expect. Its not an example of how new players shouldn't be so worried about taking risks. Obviously you have the video sped up too, but you've got a lot of micromanagement going on and a lot of inventory control. Its well beyond what a new player can expect to be able to do in 1-2 months.
And flying a 75M ship, you should probably have at least 500M in the bank to afford to do that, again, well outside the range of any new player (that isn't buying PLEX to sell or has a friend/corp to give them a lot of equipment for really cheap).

The first 100M is the hardest to make, which is about where you need to be to fly T1 cruisers in PvP (on your own, could do it with maybe 20M if you wanted to grind out money between ships). Once you get to about 300M you can really start making money in PvE and the next big milestone is 1B. Once you've got that you are in a position to start taking a lot more risks in PvE. Of course all those numbers come down a lot if you've got people to help, corp mates to fly with, cheaper materials, etc.

I don't want to do PvP anytime yet, because people like illyrus are going to take me apart. At the very least, I need money to buy a killer ship before I go on a rampage.

I have already done some mining, and it was about as exiting as watching paint dry.

As strange as it sounds, it is actually the economic side of the game that interrests me. I'm still trying to come up with some kind of supervillan plan, like cornering the marked for Isogen or something. I'm open for ideas.
Mining is usually best done semi-afk, or with a group where you spend most of your time talking and not even really paying attention to what you are doing. Or if you've got some books you want to read.

And you don't need a killer ship to start PvP, in fact thats usually a bad idea. The best idea is to either take up piracy, which you can do in frigates, or to join a corp where you can do gang PvP in a frigate. If you wait until you get really expensive ships to start PvPing you'll just loose really expensive ships. The main thing is to be selective in your targets, the newer you are and the cheaper your ship the more selective you need to be. But you'll loose ships in learning what you can and can't do.

The market though is the most interesting part of EVE. PvP and PvE, while different, can be found in any game. Its good, but its not what makes EVE unique. What makes EVE unique is the market, the 100% player controlled economy. There are however too many people and too many sources for items to control any part of the market (used to be able to with some T2 goods, but CCP thankfully changed that). That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money to be made, you just have to do it in the corporate-villain method rather then the evil-villain method. And know that like every where else people are lazy. Time is money and people will sell stuff for less if they don't have to do anything for it. Not much for high end items, but a lot of mid to low end items have a lot of supply and demand variations based on area.

illyrus

2012-01-21, 07:22 PM

But in that video, you might not be flying a super expensive ship, but you're hardly a new pilot. You've obviously got quite a bit of T2 gear (guns at least, with T2 ammo, can't tell with the rest of the stuff). This is hardly an example of what a new player can even start to expect. Its not an example of how new players shouldn't be so worried about taking risks. Obviously you have the video sped up too, but you've got a lot of micromanagement going on and a lot of inventory control. Its well beyond what a new player can expect to be able to do in 1-2 months.

I didn't say it was a video on what a newbie could do, I said it was a video that showed you didn't have to out-ISK and out-blob your opposition. I hate the mentality of some lemming with 20 other lemmings blobbing somebody 20 to 1 and then thinking that they actually know how to fight.

Yes I'm using a T1 BC with T2 gear versus people flying T3 ships and T2/faction gear that are worth many multiples of my own individually. As for the difficulty of the micro, its not hard to perform better than that level if you have someone to show you. I had to teach myself because our corp was originally 3 newbies who taught ourselves how to fight.

Edit: As a note I'm using faction ammo, EMP and minmatar drones as its high EM damage versus the tengu's probably low EM and explosive resists (tengus have high thermal/kinetic T2 level resists) and then I switch to phased plasma and gallente drones to fight the legion as that hits its probable thermal resistance hole (legions have the amarr T2 high explosive/kinetic resists).

And you don't need a killer ship to start PvP, in fact thats usually a bad idea. The best idea is to either take up piracy, which you can do in frigates, or to join a corp where you can do gang PvP in a frigate. If you wait until you get really expensive ships to start PvPing you'll just loose really expensive ships. The main thing is to be selective in your targets, the newer you are and the cheaper your ship the more selective you need to be. But you'll loose ships in learning what you can and can't do.

This I agree with. Personally I think the BC level ship is a good one to start out with as it offers the most bang for its buck and even if you fail you have a good 20-30 seconds to experience whats happening where a frigate might be dead in a second.

The market though is the most interesting part of EVE. PvP and PvE, while different, can be found in any game. Its good, but its not what makes EVE unique. What makes EVE unique is the market...

I actually consider the market a form of PvP, sure no one is shooting sparkly lasers at you but a tycoon can destroy your wealth if they so choose by driving you out of business. I'd expand on the statement and say the draw of Eve is the sandbox nature of the game.

For the most part what I want to do in the game is what you are doing now.

If you're actually being serious about this, I'm always happy to give out fitting or flying advice. That goes for anyone in the thread. I'm an ass but I want to see others succeed at what they want to do in the game so I actually tend to be helpful when someone wants training in something. I can provide advice on the PvE elements as well though my specific knowledge of the market is intentionally creating a shortage of supply or knowing of any upcoming event and then exploiting it; not playing the 0.01 ISK game. You may not want to deal with an ass like me due to my attitude and that's fine too.

Erloas

2012-01-23, 01:33 PM

Yes I'm using a T1 BC with T2 gear versus people flying T3 ships and T2/faction gear that are worth many multiples of my own individually. As for the difficulty of the micro, its not hard to perform better than that level if you have someone to show you. I had to teach myself because our corp was originally 3 newbies who taught ourselves how to fight.
The dual repairers and cap boosters to keep them going seemed to be what won it for you (other then knowing the ships very well, which is harder to pick up from a video) because you were able to simply out-last all of your opponents. I don't see a lot of fits using cap boosters, and really for gangs they don't seem to work all that well, but they do seem vital in more solo situations.
One thing about a lot of the faction gear, while it is really expensive, its very poor in the performance vs price side of things, it might cost 50x as much as a T2 part, but it is only maybe 5% better. So in that aspect of things, not having faction gear is by no means a reason to not be able to compete.
The other part that isn't really clear in the video is how the opponents were set up, simply having a faster ship that puts you where you want to be and not where they want you to be is the key to winning so many combats in EVE. Its hard to say how much of it was out-fighting them, and how much of it was out fitting them and just having the better setup for those particular fights.
Which is of course a vital thing for new players to learn, that you don't have to be in the "better" ship you just have to be in the better ship for the situation, so the key to victory is finding out which situations you are best at and keeping to those.

This I agree with. Personally I think the BC level ship is a good one to start out with as it offers the most bang for its buck and even if you fail you have a good 20-30 seconds to experience whats happening where a frigate might be dead in a second.Once you can afford to start loosing BCs in PvP at least. They are cheap for established players but they are still 5-10x the price of a cruiser and even a cruiser is 5-10x the price of a frigate.

If you're actually being serious about this, I'm always happy to give out fitting or flying advice. That goes for anyone in the thread. I was mostly meaning that what you are doing is similar to what I want to do, I was arguing the industrial and market side of things even though thats not really where my interests lie.

I think I've found a corp. Talked to them Saturday evening and everything seemed good. It also seems like their primary gang ship is one I'm already skilled up to fly pretty well (haven't seen the exact fit they use yet to know if I can fit everything in T2, assuming I even need to). It also means no having to worry about having the modules and ammo I need (a problem with my last corp, all those years ago). And while they have 0.0 space, it doesn't seem to be nearly as far out as it was before. Have to talk to the CEO first but he wasn't around Saturday evening and I spent all Sunday skiing (or driving to skiing).

It also seems that things have changed a bit in 0.0 space. Apparently NRDS is a somewhat common practice now, if it was common before it never had an acronym for it before. NRDS being Not Red, Don't Shoot. It seems to be more common in the "southern" part of the universe. So any other new players wanting to check out 0.0 some that might be a good place to start. Not sure how well everyone follows it, and there are still pirates around, especially in the low-sec between, but it could be worth checking out.

Janwin

2012-01-23, 02:40 PM

The only area I know of that's heavily NRDS is Providence.

Which is basically off and on a clusterf*ck of late. :smallbiggrin:

Bayar

2012-01-23, 03:14 PM

Erloas

2012-01-23, 03:29 PM

I'm kinda interested in buying EVE. Am currently trying it out on Steam. Pros/cons of buying it on Steam ? Also, anyone wants to invite me as their buddy ? And split the profits off the PLEX once I buy the game ?

Send me your email and I'll get you a buddy invite when I get home in a few hours (I think they just upped the buddy program to a longer trial time but not 100% sure on that).

I don't think there is any reason to buy from Steam, as the game is entirely updated by CCP and patches are pushed automatically and I couldn't think of any improvements from that could come from Steamworks. And in the end (and this not be right, seeing as how its been a long time since I created my account) I think with the buddy program you can go straight to an active account by simply paying the subscription and you don't have to "buy" the game first.

illyrus

2012-01-23, 08:03 PM

The dual repairers and cap boosters to keep them going seemed to be what won it for you (other then knowing the ships very well, which is harder to pick up from a video) because you were able to simply out-last all of your opponents. I don't see a lot of fits using cap boosters, and really for gangs they don't seem to work all that well, but they do seem vital in more solo situations.

Well yeah, a slug fest is decided by the one that out-lasts the other side.

You pretty much need to have a cap booster if you are active tanking (a single armor rep might be an exception) simply to deal with neuts. A dual-neut hurricane will easily break the cap of another BC. A neuting specific ship like a curse will be even worse. I wouldn't active tank in a 50 v 50 fight or anything but I don't have a problem doing it in the 5-10 man fleet range.

I won the fight for 4 reasons:
1. I was able to control the range of the fight
2. They did not or could not switch damage types to a more favorable damage type to hit me with.
3. They didn't seem to adapt when the situation went south for them (they didn't shoot my drones, attempt to use manual piloting to get under my guns or break way, etc)
4. While I made mistakes, none of them were serious (though leaving the MWD on was pretty damn bad)

One thing about a lot of the faction gear, while it is really expensive, its very poor in the performance vs price side of things, it might cost 50x as much as a T2 part, but it is only maybe 5% better.

Somewhat true though on PvP ships you tend to only grab the faction/deadspace gear that does make a big difference. If you're playing the nano/kiting game a republic fleet warp disruptor gets you 36 km with overheat versus 28 km for overheating a T2. Last night I took on 1 hurricane and 3 drakes in an oracle (all of us are T1 BCs) and while I won the fight (cane and 2 drakes were killed, last drake ran off) it was much more challenging to kite them when I only had a T2 disruptor over running in my tengu where I carry a RF disruptor.

You can nearly double your tank with deadspace reppers. Those are pretty rare to see on PvP ships past the top tier PvPers and also WH dwellers.

I do agree that you can compete without faction/deadspace level gear as that was part of my original point.

The other part that isn't really clear in the video is how the opponents were set up, simply having a faster ship that puts you where you want to be and not where they want you to be is the key to winning so many combats in EVE. Its hard to say how much of it was out-fighting them, and how much of it was out fitting them and just having the better setup for those particular fights.

I will say that they were running fairly standard builds on their ships from what I saw. I went into their WH and waited for them to attack me (finally killing their helios when he decided to combat scan me down), so they knew my ship and had a good half hour to decide to bring what they did. That was actually my first 1 v many fight with that style of fitting which is one of the reasons why I think a newer player could replicate it with the right knowledge.

I didn't mean for the video to be a guide on how to fight. It was a nice fight for me and was a turning point in how I viewed odds but its not what I'd consider my best one or anything. I posted it as I felt that it could serve as an example of what pilots could expect at the 6 month mark if they worked to max out their BC and BC level support skills (and probably the 1 year mark otherwise) and using a method of fighting that is fairly easy to learn.

Videos of stuff I do now wouldn't be very helpful as while I'm more skilled than I was in that video I'm also flying much more expensive things that can work really well only when you have the skill points and ISK to support them along with a good bit of combat experience. You can fit a T1 version of that myrm for probably 75% of the effectiveness 3 months into the game (and I don't mean specializing just to that one fit either).

Which is of course a vital thing for new players to learn, that you don't have to be in the "better" ship you just have to be in the better ship for the situation, so the key to victory is finding out which situations you are best at and keeping to those.

I think instead of keeping to those situations you learn ways to manipulate the situation to your ship's strengths. If you're in a brawl ship and you're attacked by long range people find a way to trick them into letting you get close or if you're in a longer range ship and get "caught" find a way to break away and get back out to range. I've fought quite a few people that seem to shut down once you get them outside of their preferred method of fighting and they seem to do a poor job of adapting. That may be what you mean by your statement though, not quite sure.

It also seems that things have changed a bit in 0.0 space. Apparently NRDS is a somewhat common practice now, if it was common before it never had an acronym for it before. NRDS being Not Red, Don't Shoot. It seems to be more common in the "southern" part of the universe. So any other new players wanting to check out 0.0 some that might be a good place to start. Not sure how well everyone follows it, and there are still pirates around, especially in the low-sec between, but it could be worth checking out.

I would not suggest joining a NRDS alliance for 0.0 work because you are at a disadvantage when a neutral flies in to attack. As a note pirates and solo/small gang PvPers love flying in NRDS territory.

Gnoman

2012-01-23, 10:06 PM

Send me your email and I'll get you a buddy invite when I get home in a few hours (I think they just upped the buddy program to a longer trial time but not 100% sure on that).

I don't think there is any reason to buy from Steam, as the game is entirely updated by CCP and patches are pushed automatically and I couldn't think of any improvements from that could come from Steamworks. And in the end (and this not be right, seeing as how its been a long time since I created my account) I think with the buddy program you can go straight to an active account by simply paying the subscription and you don't have to "buy" the game first.

All you have to do to start is download the client and set up an account, all of which can be done on the main EvE site.

Bayar

2012-01-24, 02:46 AM

Send me your email and I'll get you a buddy invite when I get home in a few hours (I think they just upped the buddy program to a longer trial time but not 100% sure on that).

I've received the invite, but it wants me to make a new account. Does it not detect the account that's already on that e-mail ?

Sprinter

2012-01-24, 05:53 AM

It also seems that things have changed a bit in 0.0 space. Apparently NRDS is a somewhat common practice now, if it was common before it never had an acronym for it before. NRDS being Not Red, Don't Shoot.

NRDS quite was common back in early 2005 in fact almost all aliances that time had NRDS policy. But it was universaly dropped by aliances as time progressed at the end only CVA had NRDS at the time i stopped playing.

back in early 2005 0.0 space was really empty i can remember my time in aliance back then it was much different everyone feared 0.0 for some unknown reason so 0.0 space was like really empty and traveling around exploring systems really felt like exploring unknown space. it was not uncommon to travel 20 jumps in 0.0 without meeting anyone and if u met someone he usualy wawe at you in local. Picking up a few bad apples among them and blacklisting wasnt much problem thats why NRDS would work back then.

I cant imagine why NRDS would work right now with 60k people online peaks and more people venturing into deep space 0.0 must be really overcrowded right now.

Erloas

2012-01-24, 10:51 AM

I've received the invite, but it wants me to make a new account. Does it not detect the account that's already on that e-mail ?

You have to make a new account. Just letting someone already playing send a buddy link to someone else already playing to add 3-4 weeks of play time and get a PLEX wouldn't really work. The idea is to get new people to play, and if you've already got an account then you are already playing.
Besides, its pretty common to have someone with multiple accounts, so several accounts with the same email address.

If you are still running a trial account it might be worth restarting anyway, as you'll get the extra trial time and its a good chance to change your training direction if you find you don't like something about the race you choose. Not that you can't cross train to other race's ships, but if you're only a week in and find you don't like lasers and armor tanking, then Amarr might not be the race for you, and changing now would be cheaper and faster then cross training. After a month or so its better to just cross train.

So last night I decided to clone jump up and try and get my BS out. Reprocessed everything that didn't fit into the ship (wasn't all that much really, I must have moved a lot before leaving last time) and sold it, got just over 10M for the minerals (including a rupture and stabber, didn't seem worth trying to sell and the mineral buy values were pretty good). Once again, of the 42 jumps, only about 4-5 systems in 0.0 space had even 1 person in local, and no one I saw at either jump gate. Low-sec was busier but only 4 jumps there and still didn't see anyone in space. So I made it out safely.
Had about a 2 dozen meta 4 items, about the same meta 3s, and two Dread Guristas items... a shield hardener and a missile launcher (assault I think). So it was well worth while. Probably 200-250M worth of stuff made it out.

As I was selling the rupture and stabber it got me thinking how any more it doesn't seem like anyone is using the standard cruisers any more. I haven't even seen all that many HACs around (but that might be more of where I'm hanging out). BCs seem to be the primary choice of most people that don't have the isk for T2/3 ships.

What does everyone think of the changes to AFs? Been wanting to fly one, maybe I'll look into it more now. They got a 50% reduction in MWD sig-radius penalty, and every one got some other bonuses or changes to them. A few got new slots, the Wolf and Jaguar both got tracking speed bonuses... and I can't remember the rest of the changes (and can't find the post again here at work).
Now they just need to adjust the destroyers so they aren't so useless in PvP.

Bayar

2012-01-24, 11:27 AM

You have to make a new account. Just letting someone already playing send a buddy link to someone else already playing to add 3-4 weeks of play time and get a PLEX wouldn't really work. The idea is to get new people to play, and if you've already got an account then you are already playing.
Besides, its pretty common to have someone with multiple accounts, so several accounts with the same email address.

If you are still running a trial account it might be worth restarting anyway, as you'll get the extra trial time and its a good chance to change your training direction if you find you don't like something about the race you choose. Not that you can't cross train to other race's ships, but if you're only a week in and find you don't like lasers and armor tanking, then Amarr might not be the race for you, and changing now would be cheaper and faster then cross training. After a month or so its better to just cross train.

Dammit. And I was almost finished with all the tutorial missions and piloting a badass Destroyer with gatling guns and salvagers on it, doing missions and stuff. Oh well.

Erloas

2012-01-24, 12:31 PM

Dammit. And I was almost finished with all the tutorial missions and piloting a badass Destroyer with gatling guns and salvagers on it, doing missions and stuff. Oh well.

You have a destroyer after the tutorial missions? Back when I started you didn't even get a t1 frigate, you just got the starter ship with civilian gear. It took a while to build up to even afford your first frigate, let alone the "top of the line frigates" and a destroyer is 3x the cost of the good frigates.

Gatling doesn't help figure out what you are, as there are gatling railguns, lasers, and autocannons.

Bayar

2012-01-24, 12:42 PM

You have a destroyer after the tutorial missions? Back when I started you didn't even get a t1 frigate, you just got the starter ship with civilian gear. It took a while to build up to even afford your first frigate, let alone the "top of the line frigates" and a destroyer is 3x the cost of the good frigates.

Gatling doesn't help figure out what you are, as there are gatling railguns, lasers, and autocannons.

Minmatar, and the destroyer I just bought off the Market with the necessary skillbook for about 1 million or something.

Edit: I realize that things have changed making the beginning a lot easier than before, since it kinda throws ships at you, around ten in total from just doing the tutorial missions.

Erloas

2012-01-24, 03:17 PM

Minmatar, and the destroyer I just bought off the Market with the necessary skillbook for about 1 million or something.

Edit: I realize that things have changed making the beginning a lot easier than before, since it kinda throws ships at you, around ten in total from just doing the tutorial missions.

I love the thrasher. I piloted for as long as I could, building my small weapon's skills while training for Assault Frigates (which I never ended up really flying), until I ended up joining a 0.0 corp and had to move to something bigger. You should be able to use it through level 2 missions and any high-sec ratting, even low sec ratting should work as its fast enough to avoid most cruiser weapons and has the firepower to chew through them. As I'm sure you've started to notice, the main issue with it, especially with ACs, is that you eat through ammo and you'll be spending a lot of time buying more.

It is a good thing they made the tutorial so much better and got players more established before sending them off on their own. It really was a slow process to start before.

You should be able to transfer the majority of your wealth to a new character. Though I'm not sure what the limitations are on trial accounts and transferring money. At very least if you've got both accounts up at once you can buy and sell the items to yourself through the market (if you can't do the contract thing).

I would assume being minmatar that you're pretty close to where I am, and I would offer to help you get started, especially if you jump into a mission beyond your skills, but if I join this new corp I'll probably be relocating shortly. I've still probably got a few things I could give you if you want (I'm not going to move everything I have). Just send me a message in game (same name) and we can talk about it.

Jonzac

2012-01-24, 04:51 PM

The bug bit me again. Reactivated one of my accounts (More mission runner, with industrialist tendencies), spent the first day consolidating my stuff and selling off all the old stuff.

Now I'll start working on my Level 3 mission in the Myrm until I have $100M...then comes the Dominix. I'm hoping that between that and PI I can afford the account through buying a Plex.

Then I'll start looking for a good corp again.

Jonzac

2012-01-24, 04:57 PM

illyrus

2012-01-24, 05:31 PM

Keep in mind that custom offices are now taxed a large % more than before which can be negated if you put your own up. I don't think you can feasibly put up your own in HS so chains that used to be good, such as buying P1/P2 materials and importing them to make P2/P3 materials, may no longer be as good.

You could always mission run for a R&D corp like Lai Dai for research agents. I think that's approx. 30 million ISK a month per character (assuming 4 level 4 agents), 60 million ISK a month if you run missions with those agents.

Lamech

2012-01-24, 11:08 PM

so chains that used to be good, such as buying P1/P2 materials and importing them to make P2/P3 materials, may no longer be as good.
Funny story there... as far as I can tell they are in fact more profitable. Running 6* PI worlds constantly turning P1 products (the raw materials mined and refined one step) into things like enriched uranium, robotics or mech parts will produce about 600 mil/month. This is if you don't insta buy/sell. Before as far as I could tell you couldn't make the same level of profit.
...
Don't ask me how that worked out.

*Technically five worlds constantly, but I assume you'll miss some processing time?

illyrus

2012-01-25, 09:14 AM

So basically 100 million ISK a month per planet not run by a robot, heh. I knew people making more than that per planet before the change buying materials and refining them. That could have been specific extra profitable chains then in general though.

Still though that's better than what I thought would be available in HS PI post-change.

king.com

2012-01-25, 09:52 PM

Jonzac

2012-01-26, 05:30 PM

Easy to go broke. Finally bought myself a Dominix and loaded the tank up with T2 repper and hardners. Still need to train Large Hybrids and Sentry gun but thought I would be ok.

Had trouble breaking the tank of a BS on a Level 3 mission, no danger once I got rid of the target painting frigates with Warrior IIs, but I couldn't get withing 36km so I was shooting Iron M at him. I finally had to switch from Warden Is to Ogre Is to Wasps Is to finally break his shield tank. Amazingly the NPC weakness was to Kinetic...who would have thought.

Now I'm at 1.3M, but I do have a BS. Although after tomorrow I'll be running my R&D agent at Lvl 4 which generates about 900k - 1M isk per day...which will fill the hole until I can generate more income.

Although I've plummeted my Gallente Faction rep down to -3.6 or something. I might have to work on bringing that back up in a little bit.

I should be running with T2 Sentries by the end of next week or so, which will greatly enhance my DPS

pffh

2012-01-26, 06:05 PM

If you're going missioning in a dominix you can pretty much ignore the guns. Drones are what you want. Throw a drone link augmentation in one of the high slots (for extra range for those long range battleships) and train your drone skills up. The ship bonus means your drones will be doing so much more dps then your guns ever will.

When I'm feeling lazy I just warp into a level 4 mission, activate my tank, aggro everything and throw out x5 tech 2 heavy drones and then watch a movie or read a book while my drones clean up.

If you're interested I can give you my mission domi fit that's served me well for a number of years.

Erloas

2012-01-26, 06:54 PM

Thats that whole piloting a ship you can't fly thing we were talking about earlier. The thing to do is pick up a BC instead. They seem to be the go-to ships any more, and even the expensive BCs are half the price of the cheap BSs.
BCs can easily handle level 3 missions too.

illyrus

2012-01-26, 07:18 PM

Lamech

2012-01-26, 08:21 PM

pffh

2012-01-26, 08:49 PM

I was going to get back into missioning and one of those would help actually.

I'm not sure anymore what skills are needed to run a stable capacitor with this but you can probably check in EFT.

Low:
Capacitor Power Relay II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Armor Hardener II
Different Armor hardener II
Damage control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

The reason you use two different armor hardeners is because most rats mostly use two different type of damage (guristas for example are mostly kinetic and explosive) and two of the same type don´t stack that well. The mix of hardeners, damage control and nano membrane provides optimal resistance stacking.

The navy reppers are expensive but well worth it since they repair a good deal more and use less CPU then the tech 2 ones and depending on your skills you might be CPU starved.

Mid:
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

All cap rechargers since this is a fairly cap heavy active tank.

High:
250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun
Drone Link Augmentor I

The guns are loaded with different types of ammo for different ranges for grabbing aggro from rats that don't autoaggro me when I warp in. This is to prevent them going after my drones. After I have aggro I usually don't bother shooting them.

The drone link augmentor is necessary for those pesky battleship rats that insist on staying outside normal drone control range.

Rigs:
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Cap circuit for stable cap. Nano pumps for better reppers. The nano pumps have diminishing returns so x2 are kinda the cap since the third would give very minor boost and that's why we use a cap circuit instead.

And finally I carry x5 Ogres II, x5 Wasps II and x5 minmatar heavies II that I don't remember the name off. I use whatever drone shoots damage that the rats are weak for and also the wasps are useful for those 1 or 2 missions (two drone missions iirc) that have a couple of frigs that move to fast for the other drones. I also recommend reading up on your missions and scooping your drones back in when more rats spawn after the initial waves since they have a nasty habit of targeting your drones if they can target drones at all.

I think that's all. This build can tank every level 4 without warping out except the Angel Extravaganza bonus room but there I need to pay attention and warp out 2-3 times before it becomes manageable. If you go with a navy domi you can increase the tank a bit by adding another Cap recharger II to the mid slot and placing some more resistance (possible another hardener of the same type as one of your other hardeners) instead of the cap power relay OR keep the cap power relay and switch out one of the hardeners for a third armor repper.

Oh also for you missioners out there I recommend clearing the mission and then bring a salvager out there to loot and salvage the wrecks to maximize your profits. If you can't fly a salvage ship a destroyer with 8 gun slots will do nicely. Fit 4 salvagers and 4 tractor beams into those high slots, carge expanders into the low slots, an afterburner and as many cap rechargers as you can in the mid slots. You should end up with a small fast ship with over 800m3 cargo.

Brother Oni

2012-01-27, 03:28 AM

The reason you use two different armor hardeners is because most rats mostly use two different type of damage (guristas for example are mostly kinetic and explosive) and two of the same type don´t stack that well.

Unless they've changed things, I believe Guristas were kinetic and thermal and Angels were kinetic and explosive.

Also I don't think the stacking penalty was that bad for one overlapping module (13% penalty I think?), with 3 modules affecting the same attribute being regarded as the optimal number.

pffh

2012-01-27, 08:45 AM

Unless they've changed things, I believe Guristas were kinetic and thermal and Angels were kinetic and explosive.

Also I don't think the stacking penalty was that bad for one overlapping module (13% penalty I think?), with 3 modules affecting the same attribute being regarded as the optimal number.

Ah yes it's the Angels. I always mix up who does what. :smallredface:

But about the stacking yeah I may have exaggerated a little but the difference between the rats primary and secondary damage is usually not that great meaning two different hardeners are better then two of the same type. But also that's why I recommended two primary hardeners and one secondary for the navy dominix that can free up a low slot with it's extra mid slot.

Jonzac

2012-01-27, 10:27 AM

Yes, just tried my first lvl 4 and almost lost the Domi on a Convoy escort that was killed by drones.

- My fit is almost exactly like that other than I used more hardners and only one repper. I'm going to have to fit a second rep on there to continue that. I have Drone V, interfacing 4. I can't use T2 hvy drones yet, so I may wait on security agents until that happens. I have maxed out energy skill and can use T2 hardners. I thought I could get by with T1 drones, but that last mission told me I couldn't.

I got lucky and just killed the frig that was warp scrambling me, hull was at 10%. Maybe it was just a bad mission to start with, but I'll do a couple of Lvl4 mining missions until I can get the faction reppers.

Of course I'm broke, so the 2 mill per lvl 4 mining mission will give me some quick cash.

Erloas

2012-01-27, 12:05 PM

How is it that you have all that T2 gear and don't have BS sized weapons trained?

I was really surprised at the training time difference between T2 medium and T2 heavy drones. Its almost an extra months worth of training time.

I finally got moved to my new home in 0.0 space. Was a lot of reds roaming around the low-sec systems just before it, but with some help from the corp and some time waiting we got through without incident. I took my tempest out, because its a bit more maneuverable and cheaper then the maelstrom, so the tempest spent 5 years docks in 0.0 space, made the run out, and less then a week later made it back out to 0.0.

And now I'm trying to decide what to train for next. Just got the covert ops cloaking, and only about 3 days out for an interdictor.
But everything else is going to take forever. Any t2 cruiser is going to take at least a month (for cruiser V), T2/3 BCs are more like 2 months (also cruiser V, but also several other level V skills). The question mostly comes down to what I think I'll actually put to use.
Also need T2 armor hardeners (7-11 days, forget now) and shield management if I want T2 shield boosters (same sort of time).

So for general PvE and PvP in 0.0 space, what seems like the best type of ship to train towards? Or should I be training for something else, drone skills are ok (no t2 heavies), missile skills are mediocre, gunnery is mostly done, and I'm only looking at flying Minmatar.

Jonzac

2012-01-27, 12:24 PM

I focused on my support skills and smaller ships as I couldn't afford a BS for most of my time anyway. I've taken some 6 months breaks and haven't been able to get into a stable corp at all.

I can fly interceptors, Mining Barges, have cruisers and BCs up to lvl 4, T2 small and Medium hybrid railguns and light Min drones.

My problem with this toon is lack of focus...got a lot of science and manufacturing and finally started down a combat path.

I've got a second account that I haven't reupped again. Its a full mining and PI toon that is learning to fly a Drake as a backup...when I feel like paying for a second account again.

illyrus

2012-01-27, 01:13 PM

A cane can easily be shield fit, armor fit, speed fit, etc, and is fairly cheap, so I'd just work on support skills like what you mentioned. Normally they're 6 guns/dual medium neut. It may be your cheap fleet ship of choice. Tempest works just as well for this just more expensive and a little bit bulkier.

Tornado is an excellent artillery boat for its price with that falloff, damage bonus, and natural agility and speed.

Another fun ship is a bomber that can actually fit bombs if you cannot already fly one. You'll probably enjoy a sabre if you're not the type to rage when you get popped.

I'd probably work up gallente to BS 3 so you at least have access to the dram, cynabal, and machariel for when you become space rich. An alternative is working up to a bhaalgorn as those things can help fleets slaughter caps. Either way you'd be looking at maybe 1.5 weeks of training you could spread out over 2-3 months to fill up spots in your training queue.

Really though I'd look into gaining access to whatever my alliance's fleet setup forum/whatnot was and plan whatever you need to for that.

Erloas

2012-01-27, 01:14 PM

But it takes all of... 30-45 minutes to train large turrets to level 1? You could probably have it done in less time then it took to buy, pick up, and fit the ship. Still think the thing to do would have been stick to your BC for another day while you get your large weapon skills to 2-3, as well as anything else you might need.

edit

A cane can easily be shield fit, armor fit, speed fit, etc, and is fairly cheap, so I'd just work on support skills like what you mentioned. Normally they're 6 guns/dual medium neut. It may be your cheap fleet ship of choice. Tempest works just as well for this just more expensive and a little bit bulkier.

Tornado is an excellent artillery boat for its price with that falloff, damage bonus, and natural agility and speed.

Another fun ship is a bomber that can actually fit bombs if you cannot already fly one. You'll probably enjoy a sabre if you're not the type to rage when you get popped.

Really though I'd look into gaining access to whatever my alliance's fleet setup forum/whatnot was and plan whatever you need to for that.
I've got the corp standard hurricane fit, the only thing I can't fit right now is the t2 armor hardeners.

I've been thinking about the bomber, one of the reasons I got cloaking to IV. Also picked up the skill for the bombs. Just not sure how much they are actually using in alliance warfare.
I think I would like the sabre too... but I've got to see what sort of income I can expect in 0.0 before I know if I can afford to fly one in PvP (just a bit more then the 'cane, but the corp can replace 'canes, and probably a lot easier to loose).

Going to ask the corp tonight what they think, I just can't ask any of them right now, and at least starting off they said I would probably be doing the standard hurricane fit. Which is probably for the best until I learn the ins and outs of alliance combat better. No reason to stand out at this point.

illyrus

2012-01-27, 02:00 PM

Large turrets are a really pain to fit on a domi with a dual large rep due to power grid unless you do something derpy like:

[Dominix, Passive Shield WTF]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I

Ogre II x5

In which case you might as well fly a Drake. Medium guns work just fine on the dual rep domi.

Jonzac

2012-01-27, 02:01 PM

No I agree I need to add the large hybrids, and I could have interupted my current training queue, but there was only about 40 DPS difference so I thought I could get away with just the Mediums in the gun slots.

Actually the best idea I got from your setup was the Power Relay. I hadn't considered that before as I was able to be cap stable with T2 Rechargers and cap rigs.

I'll try this again with the second armor repper.

Erloas

2012-01-27, 03:24 PM

No I agree I need to add the large hybrids, and I could have interupted my current training queue, but there was only about 40 DPS difference so I thought I could get away with just the Mediums in the gun slots.
I don't have the stats of the ship... but isn't 40DPS at least 5-10% of the total DPS of the ship? You are also loosing the damage bonus on the ship itself. And for a ranged setup, I would think the extra range of large over mediums would be worth it.

And although I haven't ran a lot of high level missions... is it really that vital to be cap stable? You generally have to give up a lot of slots to become cap stable, and really the longer you take to kill something the more you need to be able to tank it. In what I've seen in missions you either don't need to run your shield/armor rep all the time, or they are doing more damage then what you are repairing. If you have a bit of time to cycle things on and off, even something that will run out of cap in 4 minutes with everything on, can be stretched out for 15-20 minutes. And if you can't, it might be worth while to invest in cap boosters, and more utility/damage. You might spend more on cap boosters, but if you're making enough to justify 45 minute long fights it shouldn't be an issue, and increasing damage by 15% should in theory mean you're increasing the number of missions you do over time by 15%.

Of course I'm not a mission runner, so I'm sort of just talking through it, and anything I might be missing is worth figuring out.

pffh

2012-01-27, 03:40 PM

Jonzac

2012-01-27, 03:40 PM

I attempt to be cap stable to remove all the "stress" of mission running. The dual repper setup earlier would handle 380DPS or so and upto 475 if I put on Nano rigs on there. With the drones my offensive DPS is around 250 or so, the T1 heavys are just so darn slow.

The few times I've got against actual humans, my Vexor was fitted with nuets for the gang setup with no cap stability and boosters.

pffh

2012-01-27, 03:41 PM

illyrus

2012-01-27, 05:35 PM

Sorry, I meant it as a joke build which is why I said "derpy". I wouldn't want to fly that even if it does boast a 699 tank with average resists. It would work, I'd just rather be flying anything else. Sort of like how you can get a 4500+ tank on a Hawk but you'd have to be nuts to actually fly it.

I do agree with your analysis that specific resists would trump its general resists against the proper foes.

Edit: I'm not saying anything against anyone who flies one passive tanked either. Its good if you have a kid in the next room that needs your attention possibly mid mission while you're scrammed I'm sure.

pffh

2012-01-28, 01:24 AM

It's not derpy at all. I've shield tanked a dominix in pvp and it's great for throwing people off since they always assume a domi must be armor tanked so they throw out dps for an armor tank which a shield tank eats right up. Not to mention a shield tank vampire dominix, now that's a beast that no none prepares for (since an armor tank vampire has a better tank numbers wise and there are so many EFT warriors in nullsec).

By the way the dominix is my favourite ship so I know pretty much every fit for it by heart. I've been flying variations of different domi fits since 2006 and it has always served me well.

Erloas

2012-01-28, 02:44 PM

Trying to figure out a decent tempest fit for anomalies.
I ran one last night with my AC tempest fit... and it worked, but it was a mid difficulty mission and I still used something like 2.5k worth of ammo. So I'm thinking Artillery.

I can't fit the 1600s without at least 1 PG module/rig. Even the 1400s are right on the edge of needing one depending what else I use. Using T2 artillery.

Should I be looking at setting up for 75-100km ranges? The guns do that pretty easily with depleted uranium (thermal weak enemies, phased plasma is better but more expensive and a huge cut in range), but I need at least one sensor booster to target at those ranges, even 2 would be pretty good. And to hit faster frigates... well they have to be out at 60km+ too.

Thinking 2xgyro, large armor rep, 2xactive specific hardeners, not sure on the last, Damage Control... tracking enhancer, not sure.
Mids... the web is too short for any real use, anything that close I've pretty much got to rely on my drones for. Target painter seems to up damage a bit, but EFT I don't think figures it exactly right, as it shows 0 bonus after the optimal range and I don't know how the falloff range of TPs work, considering optimal is 30ish km and falloff is another 60ish km, I'm going to have to be working in falloff at my good gun range. But I haven't found anything as to how they actually work in falloff range.
Other options are targeting computers and sensor boosters, and probably an AB to keep at range.

The highs are all artillery but no PG for anything but frigate missiles, which don't have any range. Thinking maybe drone range augmenters, which will let them operate at or near my guns good ranges, but if I've got them back for protection against fast stuff that might not be an issue.

Not sure on riggings, haven't used them much, since all the useful ones seem to be expensive (as in 1/3 the cost of the ship). Can't afford the PG penalty for turret ones, the PG bonus ones still don't make things fit quite right (unless I get 2). Don't want to use much thats going to cut down armor, and think I need my speed to keep at range.

Haven't found a whole lot of decent fits listed online. They are all AC or using faction equipment or at very least for something other then what I want to do (such as gate camping setups)

illyrus

2012-01-28, 02:47 PM

My original point was that you'd have an easier time building a passive shield fit domi if you absolutely had to have 6 highs filled with large guns in comparison to a good dual large armor rep domi trying to fit 6 large guns. Its perfectly viable to have only medium sized guns on a domi. I do not like the passive shield tank domi because if I wanted to play that route I'd just grab a Drake.

There is a big difference between an active shield fit, a buffer fit, and a passive shield tank in PvP. I've done the 1000-1300 dps active shield domi that can hit you hard at the 20-30 km range as well as point blank, the neutdomi, etc in PvP. I've flown ones with a ton of ECCM to handle people that absolutely must bring ECM to every fight against you as well as versions that use medium autocannons as a solo-mobile. I wouldn't fly a fully passive tank domi into PvP because it doesn't offer much at all unless you're just adding dps to a tackled target.

I doubt I have as much experience as you in one, I only have 28 kills using a domi on my gallente flying character and I can't recall ever flying one in a gang. So I doubt any of those have been with a very gang friendly fit past the neutdomi. I'm not quite sure why we went for discussing PvP though when on the topic of a PvE domi. I'm perfectly fine switching to a PvP domi fitting discussion though if you like.

pffh

2012-01-28, 09:16 PM

Oh yeah I agree I would never use a passive shield domi in pvp and yeah medium guns are enough since the dominix's dps comes mainly from its drones.

And back on the PVE domi discussion: Large guns are not needed a for mission dominix. You simply do not have the powergrid for it if you're armor tanking and you do not have the cap for them if you are using an active tank.

Jonzac

2012-01-30, 08:52 AM

Jonzac

2012-01-30, 09:17 AM

Wookieetank

2012-01-30, 09:26 AM

illyrus

2012-01-30, 10:20 AM

Well the Relay II is now mine so I'll throw the second repper on and see how it goes.

I reupped my second account, because that's just how I get when I play. I forgot its ready for a HULK and uses T2 strip miners...heck it even ice and gas mines, with PI stuff up to lvl 4.

I'm in my old defunct corp with 0% tax. I'm going to mission run until I can get a POS setup for minor research and such. Having never owned a POS, I assume that I can take them down after I put it up.

I am assuming that you plan to put up a POS in HS which is what the advice below relates to. If you plan to put up a POS in LS, NS, or WH space some or all of this advice may no longer be valid:

Yes you can take take down a POS once you set it up and now its much faster than it ever was before thanks to the time it takes to put up and take down modules. Make sure that you do your research remotely where your BPOs are safely in an NPC station in system and not in the POS itself.

Make sure to put some defenses on your POS. Also realize that regardless how you defend it it will die to a determined group. I'd suggest not having more than 2 labs for a small, 3 for a medium, and 5 for a large as people will war dec you for profit with more than that present.

Personally I'd suggest a caldari tower and a ton of ECM. They're annoying to kill and people are going to pick the POSes where they're not perma-jammed or else having to relock every few seconds for hours at a time. POSes brimming with guns work well as long as you have available POS gunners to cause them to concentrate fire. You're a solo operation so an annoying deterrent would probably serve you better. Don't put a ship maintenance array on one as that will just make it look more tempting.

We used to hit POSes as part of contracts and for general profit on an off week so I'm speaking to you as what would have put our group off at the time.

Edit:

I'd like to fly a bomber, but the approx 1M isk price tag is pretty steep...do most corps/alliances cover this.

I'm not sure. In general if you're living in 0.0 or WH space the 25 million ISK price tag for a bomber isn't going to be much for you. At one time I knew the replacement policies for 6 different 0.0 alliances, only 2 of them covered things like bombers and those 2 also covered things like T2 cruisers. That's just my personal experience though. Also the ships have to come from somewhere whether its moon goo, corp taxes, mineral buy programs, etc so its not like you get a free ship from nothing, you probably had to go without some ISK to fund the program in the first place.

I'd rather fly with commanders who have battle plans that reduce the number of ships I'd lose then worry about ship replacement.

Jonzac

2012-01-30, 11:53 AM

Where are you operating out of? I'm currently hanging out in Gallente space, but due to being in a defunt corp myself just bumming around with my brother who's in some random corp.

Right now I'm at Bavisi in Tash-Murkon...my Gallente faction is somethign like -3.8...its slump buster UGLY.

Jonzac

2012-01-30, 11:56 AM

I am assuming that you plan to put up a POS in HS which is what the advice below relates to. If you plan to put up a POS in LS, NS, or WH space some or all of this advice may no longer be valid:

Yes you can take take down a POS once you set it up and now its much faster than it ever was before thanks to the time it takes to put up and take down modules. Make sure that you do your research remotely where your BPOs are safely in an NPC station in system and not in the POS itself.

Make sure to put some defenses on your POS. Also realize that regardless how you defend it it will die to a determined group. I'd suggest not having more than 2 labs for a small, 3 for a medium, and 5 for a large as people will war dec you for profit with more than that present.

Personally I'd suggest a caldari tower and a ton of ECM. They're annoying to kill and people are going to pick the POSes where they're not perma-jammed or else having to relock every few seconds for hours at a time. POSes brimming with guns work well as long as you have available POS gunners to cause them to concentrate fire. You're a solo operation so an annoying deterrent would probably serve you better. Don't put a ship maintenance array on one as that will just make it look more tempting.

We used to hit POSes as part of contracts and for general profit on an off week so I'm speaking to you as what would have put our group off at the time.

Edit:

I'm not sure. In general if you're living in 0.0 or WH space the 25 million ISK price tag for a bomber isn't going to be much for you. At one time I knew the replacement policies for 6 different 0.0 alliances, only 2 of them covered things like bombers and those 2 also covered things like T2 cruisers. That's just my personal experience though. Also the ships have to come from somewhere whether its moon goo, corp taxes, mineral buy programs, etc so its not like you get a free ship from nothing, you probably had to go without some ISK to fund the program in the first place.

I'd rather fly with commanders who have battle plans that reduce the number of ships I'd lose then worry about ship replacement.

Thanks for the advice. I've got a little way to go there, mostly cash as I've got most of the indy skills. For now I think I'm going to focus on pumping out T1 drones, Iteron IIIs and Vs and Tristians once they get out of the ME research they are in now.

I also have to research the changes to POS fuel to these FUEL BLOCKs. Seems like half of EVE is run through Google.

illyrus

2012-01-30, 12:21 PM

Old POS fuel -> racial fuel block blueprint -> racial fuel blocks.

It makes it easier if you don't produce any POS fuel at all through PI or ice mining as you just buy the fuel blocks now without having to pull out your calculator to make sure your hauler is holding x days of fuel across all the fuel types.

If you want to make part or all of your own fuel then it adds the steps of hauling the fuel to wherever you make fuel blocks and using the blueprint to build them.

Bayar

2012-01-30, 12:26 PM

So I learned how to pilot cruisers. But I can only pilot a Scythe at the moment. And as I understand it, that ship is not that great unless you want to mine, and even then, you should use a different ship to ferry the cargo. Any advice on what to do ?

I can still fly around in my Trasher since it now has 2 200mm Autocannons and can simply RIP AND TEAR NPC frigates.

Wookieetank

2012-01-30, 12:44 PM

Right now I'm at Bavisi in Tash-Murkon...my Gallente faction is somethign like -3.8...its slump buster UGLY.

Depending on how far out that is from where I am (I'll find out once I get home from work), might pop over and say hi. Might even convince my brother to come by, he's been working towards setting up his own POS, but I'm sure he'd enjoy helping set one up as much as having his own.

Wookieetank

2012-01-30, 01:02 PM

Hurray for lag or whatever.

Erloas

2012-01-30, 01:05 PM

I'm not sure. In general if you're living in 0.0 or WH space the 25 million ISK price tag for a bomber isn't going to be much for you. At one time I knew the replacement policies for 6 different 0.0 alliances, only 2 of them covered things like bombers and those 2 also covered things like T2 cruisers. That's just my personal experience though. Also the ships have to come from somewhere whether its moon goo, corp taxes, mineral buy programs, etc so its not like you get a free ship from nothing, you probably had to go without some ISK to fund the program in the first place.

I'd rather fly with commanders who have battle plans that reduce the number of ships I'd lose then worry about ship replacement.
You missed the question. It wasn't in replacing the bomber, it was cover the cost of the bombs. At roughly 600-800k isk each they aren't really expensive but they aren't cheap either. The problem is that they are expendable, and firing one every 2.5 minutes means you're paying for the cost of the ship just in bomb use in about an hours worth of fighting.
And considering that virtually all bomb use is going to be at the direction of Alliance/Corp fleet leaders, it seems reasonable for them to cover the costs.
If they do or not depends on the group though. The policy of my corp is said to be (haven't been there long enough to see how good they are about it) that if you loose the corp designated ship and configuration in corp/alliance fleet operations they will replace it. They won't replace it if you're off on your own. The corp isn't big enough to have access to a large number of well researched BPOs, so they stick to a few specific ships.

As for the high-sec POSs... I'm not sure if they're worth the effort for a small corp, it just takes a lot of time and effort to keep them going. Really I would look into joining a 0.0 corp with a good alliance. It seems most 0.0 alliances are more for PvP and only do industry to support it, so they have a need for industrial types. Then you've got help doing every part of it. As far as risk, low-sec is generally more dangerous then 0.0 when you have an active alliance. Its not as secure as high-sec but its easier to make money and you don't have to do everything by yourself (which is almost required to get a corp's standings up enough to build a POS)

edit:
So I learned how to pilot cruisers. But I can only pilot a Scythe at the moment. And as I understand it, that ship is not that great unless you want to mine, and even then, you should use a different ship to ferry the cargo. Any advice on what to do ?

I can still fly around in my Trasher since it now has 2 200mm Autocannons and can simply RIP AND TEAR NPC frigates.
What I would do is stay with your thrasher until you get your medium weapon and cruiser skills to about 3 (only take a couple days) and then make the switch. As a well piloted thrasher will out-fight a poorly piloted cruiser. Either the rupture or stabber, rupture is probably better for general purpose and lower skills as the stabber is more speed dependent.
Also... 2 200mm ACs? You should have 7 in there. Also with ACs you should be able to orbit close enough that cruisers can't hit you and you'll still take them down quickly, so you don't have to limit yourself to frigates.

illyrus

2012-01-30, 01:33 PM

I considered that he might have been talking about bombs instead of bombers like he said. The 1 million ISK number didn't match either so I went with his word of bomber and just figured he missed a digit. The thing is, you're not going to be firing them for an hour straight even if they had a 1 second reload time. You're going to carry maybe 4 on a bomber (2 in the launcher and 2 in the bay) because they take up a fair bit of space. Overall they'll end up costing you about the same as the T2/faction ammo you'd store on your ship or 1 or 2 T2 drones. Honestly I'd look at a corp mate funny if he asked me to reimburse him a few hundred thousand ISK for bomb ammo when he or she probably throws out a few million ISK of faction ammo and drones every fight.

That being said if you're firing more than 4 an hour then you're having to be resupplied from somewhere so you're not having to pay it unless there is a credit card slot beside the jetcan/carrier/corp hangar array/etc.

As for joining a 0.0 alliance/corp for POS stuff:
More than likely they're not going to let you setup your own POS as that would give you more rights for other POSes than they'd want you to have. A HS POS can be profitable solo if you keep your research lines flowing.

Janwin

2012-01-30, 03:12 PM

Trying to figure out a decent tempest fit for anomalies.

Well, maybe it's different in the part of space you're at, but no, man. Just no.

Unless you want to do anomalies perma-aligned. In which case, go for it.

A BS aligns too slowly for me to ever want to bring it near an anomaly.

I tend to use an Ishtar or a Tengu, for obvious reasons.

Erloas

2012-01-30, 05:46 PM

Why is that? So far I've started off with the easiest in the system (hidden den, class 4, level 2) and its been pretty easy. With very little challenge, but a fair amount of time.
Sansha NPCs around here.

So far it seems like just a wave mission. I've done two so far, and wanted to get used to them before moving to the harder ones and I'm not sure how quickly they scale up in difficulty.
The only other choice I have right now is to run them in a hurricane (and even that isn't something I can do right at the moment, but could fairly quickly). I don't have any T2 or T3 ships larger then the interdictor.

Jonzac

2012-01-31, 09:06 AM

Yes, I was talking about the actual bombs themselves. Of course last time I looked at using them was in 0.0 space and they were a BILLION times more expense there as we were getting kicked out of our space. In fact RA has the station with some of my stuff in it...along with a jump clone.

Finally figured out the system for L4 missions...bring a friend. In this case I loaded my industrialist who can fly Caracels with Hvy Launchers (no wpns upgrades yet) and added that DPS and BAM. Big. Difference.

Of course I got a mission that hits my weakness as a dual repping Armor tank....NOS. Blood Raiders on "The Blockade". Second wave had 4 NOSing priests (cruisers) at 30km. Couple that with the fact that I dropped the game twice losing me my Hvy Drones, my DPS fell through the floor. Finally figured out to kit the NOSing cruisers while they were worked over at 50km by Med Drones and Iron Hybrid M.

Logged on real quick to test the added DPS of the Caracel and I downed 4 BSs in about a quarter of the time. Missioning is not what I want to do long term, but it can be fun and provide me some seed cash.

Janwin

2012-01-31, 11:31 AM

Why is that?

Sansha NPCs around here.

The reasons you want to run something like an Ishtar or a Tengu when doing anomalies are many. Particularly over a battleship.

1. Speed. Run around with an afterburner on and a relatively small (cruiser or T3) signature, and you can mitigate a LOT of damage, meaning you actually need less of an active tank than you would with a battleship.
2. Locking speed. Unless you're running sensor boosters, you're going to lock your targets a lot faster in a cruiser hull than you will in a battleship hull. Generally, when dealing with NPCs, it's frigates that will warp jam you. You want to lock them fast and kill them fast just in case **** hits the fan and you need to jet (say, if you are taking more damage than you expected to be, or a hostile roam happens to come into the system).
3. Speed. If a hostile roam happens to come into the system, skilled interceptors can get into your anomaly before you manage to align. If you're sitting right on the entrance of the anomaly, you're tackled. Yes, there's the chance they go to the wrong anomaly, but if you're doing a Haven or something, it's pretty obvious where you're going to be.
4. Resistances. Tech 2 (and 3) ships have higher base resistances. It's far easier to tank them against your particular enemy. They are thus, more efficient.
5. Weapons. Whether you're running an Ishtar or a Tengu, you can choose your ammo based on the rats you're facing, no matter where you are in space. If I'm hunting Guristas, I can switch to Wasps and Scourge. If I'm hunting Sansha, I can switch to pure EM. Minmatar is always mixed damage. Sansha are weak to EM and Thermal, in that order. You want to do as much EM damage as possible against them. This means you're running EMP or Proton. Which both do kinetic, and EMP also does explosive, which is just wasted damage since the rats resist those easily. You want pure EMP, or EMP/Thermal. So with Ishtar/Tengu, you'd just use pure EMP. Or you could do well with lasers.
6. Did I mention speed?
7. And then there's just plain usefulness. BSes are slow and cumbersome. You can't really move them around as safely as you can move around an Ishtar, or even in the same league as you can move around a Tengu (interdiction nullifier + cover ops = nigh uncatchable).
8. Ammo. While this is also a little bit of an issue with Tengus since they need to carry missiles, it's more of an issue with a Tempest. Tempest ammo is larger, so you get less shots. And doesn't work as well on smaller ships unless you tracking mod the hell out of it.
9. Automation. For an Ishtar, there are certain anomalies where the rats that spawn will automatically target the ship, and never the drones. So you put out your drones and read a book while periodically checking to make sure there's nobody unfriendly in local.
10. And then there's the speed thing.
11. I could go on for a while.

So far it seems like just a wave mission. I've done two so far, and wanted to get used to them before moving to the harder ones and I'm not sure how quickly they scale up in difficulty.
The only other choice I have right now is to run them in a hurricane (and even that isn't something I can do right at the moment, but could fairly quickly). I don't have any T2 or T3 ships larger then the interdictor.

If all you've got is a BS for it, then I guess you don't have much of a choice (a Hurricane would be an even worse choice than a Tempest, most likely, or maybe try a Drake (it's a wanna-be Tengu)). But if you plan to actually do anomalies regularly, you want to get into an Ishtar or Tengu as quickly as possible, assuming you want to do it as easily as possible.

I may have gone a little overboard on my own Tengu fit, honestly. But between anomalies and signatures, it reaps damn good money. Ship costs about 1.5b ISK, but it's almost impossible to catch and can solo burn most signatures (except 10/10).

I also have an Ishtar just for anomalies since it's easy to park it in a Hub or Haven and let the money pile up to keep me pew pewing.

Janwin

2012-01-31, 01:10 PM

And if you're wondering what my Tengu setup for signatures/anomalies is...

For doing damage I run the following fit:

Components:
Amplification Node, Dissolution Sequencer, Augmented Capacitor Reservoir, Accelerated Ejection Bay, Fuel Catalyst
Lows:
4x Ballistic Control System II
Mids:
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Gist B-Type [Damage Type] Deflection Field
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Highs:
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (run base or Fury of [Damage Type])
Mods:
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-[Damage Type] Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Replace [Damage Type] with the primary damage dealt and weakness of the rats you're hunting.

For example, I run kinetic, which affords me a 90.5% kinetic resistance and an 80% thermal resistance (secondary). Completely cap stable. Does some absurd damage, and I can run one repper or both depending on how much I need.

If I'm doing probing or transit, I refit to cov ops and interdiction nullifier and between ignoring bubbles and warping cloaked there's not many gate camps I can't get through. :smallbiggrin:

Expensive, but I've made far more than the cost of the ship back in the time I've been using it.

Erloas

2012-01-31, 06:55 PM

Trying to figure out the right way to say this... but that advice is almost completely useless. Right now even getting into a Loki would take me over a month, getting into another race's T2/3 cruisers and the weapon skills to make them good is going to be closer to two or three month (and t2 medium size guns add even more to that). The ishtar is 50% more expensive and the Tengu, by the time it is fit is 10-15x more expensive and I would have to do a lot of money earning (such as, I don't know, running anomalies) in that time to afford one.

I have no doubt they are good ships, and if price is any indication, much better ships then the tempest, but they aren't practical even moderately short term solutions. I could get into a Naglfar in less time then I could get into either of those ships.

And as it happens, minmatar ships have exactly the right resists as their primaries for fighting sansha, so in terms of tanking they should be better, at least in this specific case. As it is, being that sansha does EM as a primary damage type, neither the ishtar or the tengu have resists against EM any better then a t1 ship.

In short, use something you can't afford or use for months is not exactly useful advice. And just because they are better doesn't mean other ships can't do it as well, because I'm 100% sure that not everyone running anomalies have either of those ships and they are doing pretty well at it. Finding something that will work for me is much more important then what is theoretically the best option in the game for doing it.

As for an interceptor to find an anomaly, warp to it, and lock you down before you can notice them in local and warp out... I find that very hard to believe. A BS is slow, but even so it will generally hit warp in 10-20 seconds and that hardly enough time to scan for an anomaly, let alone warping into the right one and locking someone down. With an average of 15 anomalies outside the station, picking the right one is hardly a guarantee, because you have to make the assumption that they are either doing the hardest or easiest and jump right there and then I would have to be in the one they picked, as virtually every challenge level in system has 2 copies up at any given time.

Lamech

2012-01-31, 11:12 PM

As for an interceptor to find an anomaly, warp to it, and lock you down before you can notice them in local and warp out... I find that very hard to believe. A BS is slow, but even so it will generally hit warp in 10-20 seconds and that hardly enough time to scan for an anomaly, let alone warping into the right one and locking someone down. With an average of 15 anomalies outside the station, picking the right one is hardly a guarantee, because you have to make the assumption that they are either doing the hardest or easiest and jump right there and then I would have to be in the one they picked, as virtually every challenge level in system has 2 copies up at any given time.Don't forget about getting caught on a gate. Oh side note, in case you guys weren't doing it, stay on directional! It might not catch everything, but in the past I've been saved by seeing things like "scanner probe" on that. Also note it is possible to scan for ships directly instead of scanning down anomalies.

Erloas

2012-02-01, 12:10 AM

Well yeah, traveling in a BS can be a big issue alone in 0.0. Running anomalies in a single system in the middle of alliance space? Not so much.

Also with anomalies being close to celestial objects and those objects not being right at the gates, they've got to jump into system, jump to whichever celestial object I decided to scan from (as they're all within only 3au of where you scan), scan, find me, jump, catch up to where I am and tackle me.
Its not that they can't do that rather quickly, but unless I'm seriously neglecting my watching of local there is no way thats going to happen before even a slow BS gets to warp.

illyrus

2012-02-01, 12:37 AM

Janwin:
That looks like a nice tengu for doing them relatively cheaply. Seen others using similar builds in W-space to good effect as well.

Erloas
As for worrying about hostiles in 0.0 space, in an ideal world (from the perspective of the hunted) local is going to show you everyone in system immediately, you'll have no one but alliance/blues in system, and you'll be so focused on the game that you'll notice any change in less than 1 second and pick the correct course of action from that new data. There are times when the situation is less than ideal and a more agile ship that has some break-away capability will reduce your chance of death. You can't fly that ship now so make do with what you have and consider training for one of those* as a long term goal.

"Target painter seems to up damage a bit, but EFT I don't think figures it exactly right, as it shows 0 bonus after the optimal range and I don't know how the falloff range of TPs work"

It should be a chance of it working for 100% of the total effect. So at optimal+single falloff it has a 50% chance of working but if it does then it works for 100% of the effect.

You can read more about it here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadid=511720

in section 8. Some of the data is old so may not be 100% up to date.

*Edit: By those I mean an agile ship (like a T2/T3 cruiser or a machariel), not a tengu or ishtar specifically)

Janwin

2012-02-01, 09:22 AM

Trying to figure out the right way to say this... but that advice is almost completely useless. Right now even getting into a Loki would take me over a month, getting into another race's T2/3 cruisers and the weapon skills to make them good is going to be closer to two or three month (and t2 medium size guns add even more to that). The ishtar is 50% more expensive and the Tengu, by the time it is fit is 10-15x more expensive and I would have to do a lot of money earning (such as, I don't know, running anomalies) in that time to afford one.

I have no doubt they are good ships, and if price is any indication, much better ships then the tempest, but they aren't practical even moderately short term solutions. I could get into a Naglfar in less time then I could get into either of those ships.

Never said they were short term plans for you, my friend. They are certainly long term plans. It was simply a suggestion of 'if you plan to be doing a lot of carebearing in 0.0, you probably are going to want to start training towards one or both of these sooner rather than later.

Once you get into the full swing of things, an Ishtar is actually pretty cheap. It'll end up costing about the same as an average BS (somewhere in the range of 150m ISK).

Also, just as an aside on your statement here...eventually, you're going to need to delve into other races' stuff. Minmatar won't always be the answer to everything. On any day, given the situation and what we're fighting, I might fly Hurricanes, Sabres, Guardians, Abbadons, Drakes, Tengus, Rohks, Zealots, Ishtars, Lachesis... And if you're looking for optimal fleet setup, you try to keep everyone in the same ship. So a Hurricane fleet would have Canes, Scimis, Sabres and tackle. A Drake fleet wouldn't want to bring canes since the drakes outrange the canes and thus the canes are mostly useless when keeping distance. >.> I tried to stay Gallente for a long time, and that was a horrible, horrible mistake.

As for an interceptor to find an anomaly, warp to it, and lock you down before you can notice them in local and warp out...

Read what illyrus said about an ideal world. My alliance catches people ratting in anything from assault frigates to carriers. It just takes a bit more luck the smaller your target gets. (Note: anyone caught ratting in an AF is particularly short bus.)

Janwin:
You can't fly that ship now so make do with what you have and consider training for one of those* as a long term goal.

*Edit: By those I mean an agile ship (like a T2/T3 cruiser or a machariel), not a tengu or ishtar specifically)

This was the point I was trying to make. Not saying you can hop in one now. Saying it's something you should look at for the future.

Jonzac

2012-02-01, 05:35 PM

Why is ratting with an AF silly? I would have thought the smaller frame would allow someone to more quickly align and leave the area when someone arrives.

Now maybe you can't actually kill the rats with an AF, but one would have helped me save my Dominix in a L4. I got caught by scramming Blood Raider frigates, then NOSd and then killed. Accidentally activated the last wave and paid the price.

I was wondering if I had a character in an AF to provide additional DPS against the small ships. How do you all in missioning Ravens and other missile boats handle these small ships (frigates and cruisers)?

Brother Oni

2012-02-01, 06:44 PM

I was wondering if I had a character in an AF to provide additional DPS against the small ships. How do you all in missioning Ravens and other missile boats handle these small ships (frigates and cruisers)?

Target Painters and small/medium drones. A lit-up cruiser usually goes down in 2/3 volleys with cruise missiles, so they're not really an issue.

Erloas

2012-02-02, 03:06 PM

Also, just as an aside on your statement here...eventually, you're going to need to delve into other races' stuff. Minmatar won't always be the answer to everything. On any day, given the situation and what we're fighting, I might fly Hurricanes, Sabres, Guardians, Abbadons, Drakes, Tengus, Rohks, Zealots, Ishtars, Lachesis... And if you're looking for optimal fleet setup, you try to keep everyone in the same ship. So a Hurricane fleet would have Canes, Scimis, Sabres and tackle. A Drake fleet wouldn't want to bring canes since the drakes outrange the canes and thus the canes are mostly useless when keeping distance. >.> I tried to stay Gallente for a long time, and that was a horrible, horrible mistake. I can see the benefit to flying multiple races, I'm just not to the point where its a good option. You know, the specialization concept that is key for newer players to be able to compete with older players.
But the point is that I didn't ask for long term training advice, I asked for a reasonable fit for the tempest, I ship I already own and fly, for doing anomalies in the short term. Something I could pick up the modules for and start earning money in a day or two.
And there is use for the minmatar ships, as you've already said. Wouldn't the more practical thing be to finish the last 20% of the ships for them and be done with it rather then jumping to a different race and type of weapons and spend months training for those just because one ship currently happens to be the ideal choice? Its not like you even suggested the loki, vagabond, or munin as options until someone else mentioned it.

Read what illyrus said about an ideal world. My alliance catches people ratting in anything from assault frigates to carriers. It just takes a bit more luck the smaller your target gets.
Yes, and this all comes down to how much someone is paying attention. I think I've got a pretty good system in place for monitoring local, as well as the help of the alliance intel. The thing is though, as you even say yourself, if someone isn't paying attention you're going to catch them no matter what they are flying, and they will escape no matter what if they are paying attention. The number of times you catch someone PvEing and a few seconds of time to warp makes a difference is pretty small.

What I found rather ironic about the whole thing though is that the other day I did a few high level anomalies with some corp members. They were both flying fleet issue Armageddons, and I know they both had access to HACs, one had even picked up and equipped a Proteus earlier in the day and I know he has a Tengu sitting around, and I'm pretty sure the other one also had access to at least one T3 cruiser too. They both just parked, didn't move in the slightest, and we just destroyed everything in no time at all, more then able to just tank the damage. Of course if they were doing it solo they would probably approach things a little differently. I think they were doing the highest level ones, but I wasn't doing the scanning so I couldn't say for sure.