XCOM: Enemy Unknown [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

chiasaur11

2012-01-05, 05:15 PM

So, a while back, 2K announced XCOM. A 1950s FPS with loose ties to X-Com: UFO Defense, the Gollop brothers classic. The internet raged.

They changed it. The internet raged.

Then this (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/05/firaxis-re-making-xcom-enemy-unknown/)happened. And the seas were calmed.

The studio behind the all time classic Civilization is making a new X-Com, with the same basic mechanics as the original. Turn based tactics and real time global strategy in one bundle.

I know I'm interested.

Tengu_temp

2012-01-05, 05:32 PM

This will be the first Firaxis game without Sid Meyer in the title. Maybe they should call it Sid Meier's X-Com to differentiate it from the original?

Anyway, these guys know how to make good strategy games, so I'm hopeful. And I wonder will you be able to ask Elvis for advice when you get stuck. He should know a thing or two about aliens after all.

factotum

2012-01-05, 05:43 PM

They mean either UFO: Enemy Unknown (the proper title) or X-Com: UFO Defense (the *wrong* title), presumably...and yes, if it's a proper re-imagining with up-to-date technology, it's definitely interesting; certainly a lot more so than the abomination currently under development under the name.

chiasaur11

2012-01-05, 06:12 PM

Rockphed

2012-01-05, 06:13 PM

I suspect that the title for the game will be "XCOM: Enemy Unknown". And it looks like it will be awesome.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-05, 06:14 PM

It will be nice to have a proper new X-Com game. Most of the not-quite-X-Com ones have been a bit rubbish.

Miklus

2012-01-05, 06:18 PM

Yes, this could be good. Really good.

Derthric

2012-01-05, 06:24 PM

This makes me happy. That is all.

Cespenar

2012-01-05, 06:30 PM

Meh, I'm not totally convinced about Firaxis. It could go both ways.

Maxios

2012-01-05, 06:36 PM

Are they still going to make the FPS?

Grif

2012-01-05, 07:12 PM

Are they still going to make the FPS?

They still are.

I'm cautiously optimistic for this one. If they can implement some or all the improvement X-Com: Apocalypse made, I'm a happy camper. (I'm rather fond of the real-time mode in Apoc.)

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-05, 07:21 PM

This is... better news. It might even be good news.

Gralamin

2012-01-05, 08:46 PM

I will be watching this with interest. We will see if they can do justice to X COM.

iyaerP

2012-01-05, 08:46 PM

:smallredface::smallbiggrin:GLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEE

Surrealistik

2012-01-05, 08:48 PM

They still are.

I'm cautiously optimistic for this one. If they can implement some or all the improvement X-Com: Apocalypse made, I'm a happy camper. (I'm rather fond of the real-time mode in Apoc.)

Yes. Real time mode, balanced psionics, and no gamebreaking Blaster Launcher.

On the flipside, some of Apoc's stuff was also problematic; Toxins and Personal Teleportation Devices in particular. Though they were both fun additions to the game, and I'd like to see them reintroduced into the series, they need some definite nerfing.

pffh

2012-01-05, 08:51 PM

My excitement can only be properly expressed by a pony. Take it away Rainbow Dash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKWpGJ4Xhw8

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-05, 08:52 PM

eeeeeeenteresting. Will keep a wary eye on this.

Eakin

2012-01-05, 09:10 PM

I've never played any of the X-coms, but I heard they're awesome. Steam's daily deal today was 5 old X-com games for 5 bucks, so hopefully I'll have time to remedy that particular hole in my gaming resume over the weekend

KingofMadCows

2012-01-05, 09:16 PM

So there is still hope for an isometric turn based Fallout developed by Tim Cain and Chris Avellone.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-05, 10:01 PM

The first X-com is still awesome, the UFO:Enemy Unknown one, haven't played any of the others.

psilontech

2012-01-05, 10:26 PM

http://www.taclink.org/k/src/132460611851.gif

Whelp, given the amount of time until anything else of note is likely to turn up and my current level of enthusiasm, it seems the time has come to fire up Terror From The Deep to put me off xcom long enough for more information to come up!:smallbiggrin:

Grif

2012-01-06, 12:08 AM

Yes. Real time mode, balanced psionics, and no gamebreaking Blaster Launcher.

On the flipside, some of Apoc's stuff was also problematic; Toxins and Personal Teleportation Devices in particular. Though they were both fun additions to the game, and I'd like to see them reintroduced into the series, they need some definite nerfing.

I don't know. Without toxins, it was actually pretty hard to scavenge for those nifty shields. But yes, I agree they need to be nerfed hard. (It came to the point where I armed my sniper/entire squad with the Toxigun. Yes. It was that OP.)

iyaerP

2012-01-06, 12:19 AM

To be fair, in the original Xcom, everyone save my blaster bombers and psy warriors carried heavy plasma guns. They were pretty much the best.

chiasaur11

2012-01-06, 12:44 AM

To be fair, in the original Xcom, everyone save my blaster bombers and psy warriors carried heavy plasma guns. They were pretty much the best.

Lasers, man.

Every laser rifle instead of a heavy plasma meant another spot for medikits. Blaster bombs. Psi amps. A tank.

A laser rifle for every trooper on an avenger with 2 tanks? 20 slots of 80 filled.

Heavy plasmas, that's 38 without spare mags. Give everyone a grenade or det pack for emergencies, that's 38 to 56. Now psi amps, 56 to 74. Medkits push team plasmas over the limit. Lasers still have room for a stun rod and a blaster launcher.

Plus, every laser employed instead of a heavy plasma is over 100,000 dollars in the bank. Enough to buy 2 suits of flying armor. Lasers are an economist's friend.

iyaerP

2012-01-06, 01:19 AM

Ahhh, but where you have every soldier in your squad with a nade, I have my heavy 2 heavy weapon specialists who just hang back, move last and drop a blaster bomb on whatever needs a blasting. Save several inventory spots right there. Similarly, I don't bother giving everybody a psyamp. Only my psy specialists. There's another half-dozen saved item spots there as well.

The key reason to use heavy plasmas over anything else is that with the occasional exception, they can and will one shot EVERY ENEMY you will face. Laser rifles, by comparison, will still leave almost anything you face lategame still standing, requiring multiple hits to bring enemies down. H.Plasmas are more accurate, and can also destroy UFO internal walls for increased tactical flexibility. Since I tend to run an elite troop of super-soldiers rather than the "usual" psychics-only-army, I prefer to have the best guns for the job.

As for fitting everything into the avenger/skyranger, only thing I ever had trouble fitting was flares.

Surrealistik

2012-01-06, 01:25 AM

I don't know. Without toxins, it was actually pretty hard to scavenge for those nifty shields. But yes, I agree they need to be nerfed hard. (It came to the point where I armed my sniper/entire squad with the Toxigun. Yes. It was that OP.)

Lol, dude, every last one of my troopers was dual wielding the things on autofire, and very occasionally snap shots/aimed shots for the longest ranges; it was a slaughterstorm of (close to) instagibbing doom darts. Go toxin or go home. As for scavving shields, yeah, it's supposed to be tricky though; psionics and stunning worked well for that.

PTDs were absurd because you could just warp in, drop a bunch of primed vortexes/gas grenades/etc... and warp out (using a second PTD of course). Telestrikes were unstoppable.

Also I agree with Lasrifles being the best, especially since it means more slots for explosives, and an autoshot will instakill anything except maybe a Muton at close range (where explosives aren't as attractive an option). It still had one shot potential vs Ethereals, though they usually required two on higher difficulties, but then, that's what your 1-2 extra alien grenades/HE charges/blaster bombs per gun (since you don't need clips) are for; the best strategy was always explosive spam anyways.

factotum

2012-01-06, 02:41 AM

Yes. Real time mode, balanced psionics, and no gamebreaking Blaster Launcher.

Hey, Blaster Launcher was fun! And in real-time mode, where you wouldn't have time to place all the waypoints to make the thing fly round corners and straight up the alien mothership's central shaft (oo-er), they wouldn't be anything like as broken.

Archonic Energy

2012-01-06, 08:10 AM

i still think i could aim a BB up an unexplored battle ship from memory... :smallamused:

survival tip: person with the BB is not allowed anything under a 90 in psi...
otherwise it can be... dangerous!

as for Plasma Vs Laser

Laser
reason: if you find you are getting stuck for firepower most aliens will have HPs on them later so you can just scavange them from the dead ... in mission!

Badgerish

2012-01-06, 08:19 AM

interest:piqued

Loved the original and strongly liked Apoc (although it is a candidate for for the easiest-to-abuse game I own)

Laser rifle is my go-to weapon for most of the game, slowly shifting to H.Plasma at the end.

tensai_oni

2012-01-06, 08:49 AM

Heavy plasma. I prefer stopping power to infinite ammo. You need that in late game. Heavy Plasma is also more accurate.

Every laser rifle instead of a heavy plasma meant another spot for medikits. Blaster bombs. Psi amps. A tank.

Tanks take place of 4 soldiers. That's their limitation, not the 80 item limit.

Heavy plasmas, that's 38 without spare mags. Give everyone a grenade or det pack for emergencies, that's 38 to 56. Now psi amps, 56 to 74. Medkits push team plasmas over the limit. Lasers still have room for a stun rod and a blaster launcher.

You don't need spare magazines for heavy plasma guns. You don't need medkits on every soldier. You don't need psi amps on every soldier either - unless you have 20 psi-trained soldiers, and then congrats on breaking the game because it won't be any challenge anymore. Same for blaster launchers. Grenades I found of moderate use.

The 80 item limit can be painful but usually you don't need that much equipment anyway. Especially in late game. If I have an Avenger, why bother with stun rods?

Plus, every laser employed instead of a heavy plasma is over 100,000 dollars in the bank. Enough to buy 2 suits of flying armor. Lasers are an economist's friend.

100 000 is child's pocket money by X-Com standards. Flying armor's real cost is elerium, not cash.

Byrnbot08

2012-01-06, 09:07 AM

To be fair, I prefer equipping with a mix of lasers and plasma. Give all the terrible shots a laser, give all the marksmen a plasma. Give the most psy-defended the blaster bomb.

Lasers = quantity with decent power early-mid game with the power of human tech in the first month. 8 guys autoshotting downrange in one turn can pump out alotta starlight.

Plasma = power, with ammo readily available from the cold, dead hands of the aliens you killed by the time the mid-late game rolls in. The marksmen make each shot count, take as many snap or aimed shots at armoured/high HP targets.

The blaster sticks with the psy-defended to prevent... accidents. Yes... accidents.

Surrealistik

2012-01-06, 10:42 AM

Hey, Blaster Launcher was fun! And in real-time mode, where you wouldn't have time to place all the waypoints to make the thing fly round corners and straight up the alien mothership's central shaft (oo-er), they wouldn't be anything like as broken.

It was also totally broken. I agree that in real time it probably wouldn't be _as_ bad, but still plenty overpowered. A quick person could place those waypoints in probably 5 seconds or less, maybe 10 or less over longer ranges.

TBH, grenades I found are pretty much the alpha and the omega of non-Psionic/blaster launcher weaponry in X-Com: no direct line of fire required, only needs to be close to kill, will one shot pretty much anything, typically has more than enough range, clears out enemy cover, and you can relay grenades from trooper to trooper until it finds its way to where it's needed, which allows your forward soldiers to allocate more firepower than they normally could (since they don't have to prime).

tensai_oni

2012-01-06, 11:12 AM

Gaius Marius

2012-01-06, 11:22 AM

Surrealistik

2012-01-06, 11:28 AM

Real time wouldn't matter, because active pause is a thing and I bet my Skyranger any real time X-Com game would have one. What would balance a Blaster Launcher-type weapon is to give it some inaccuracy with each checkpoint, or maybe require there to be enough place for the missile to turn. With pinpoint accuracy there is no way to balance it out.

Yeah, we're making the assumption you would not be able to active pause when setting WPs for obvious reasons. I think even if you gave it some inaccuracy or required more turning clearance, it would still likely be broken if you're allowed to make WPs during a pause, though I'm willing to concede the existence of some happy, but hard to determine medium.

As for grenades, they are strong but also awkward to use. Strong soldiers actually cannot use them indoors, because the ceiling is too low and they throw too high. Their best use is for outside combat, but this is X-Com. Outside combat is the least of your concerns.

The only time I've found an alien grenade awkward to use is where especially low ceilings are involved which would be the minority of combats. You can actually use them pretty well indoors so long as you have more than one tile of clearance overhead. On the flipside, indoor combats tend to be involve lots of CQC, and the Lasrifle autoshot deals with pretty much anything just fine at those engagement ranges. Granted, Mutons probably require Heavy Plasma to kill reliably with a single burst.

Muz

2012-01-06, 01:21 PM

Mwahaha....
MWAhahahahaaa!!
MWAHAHAHAHAAHHAHHAAAHH!!!

...I mean...splendid. :smallbiggrin:

tensai_oni

2012-01-06, 01:29 PM

Yeah, we're making the assumption you would not be able to active pause when setting WPs for obvious reasons.

Why?

Most modern real-time tactical games offer an active pause function. This includes X-Com Apocalypse and all three After<Blank> titles. So I don't think you're arguing it'd be better if this game had no active pause at all. Are you saying that active pause should be present for everything BUT setting up way points then? That's a poor balancing measure. It was said already, an experienced player would be able to set up waypoints in a manner of seconds anyway, and it's not the setup that's the problem - but the accuracy and inevitability of the missile.

Thanatos 51-50

2012-01-06, 01:35 PM

Laser Rifles beat heavy plasma. No need to worry about the logistics of ammunition, and I've never been praying I had the additional firepower Heavy Plasma offered, even against Mutons.

Surrealistik

2012-01-06, 01:39 PM

Why?

Most modern real-time tactical games offer an active pause function. This includes X-Com Apocalypse and all three After<Blank> titles. So I don't think you're arguing it'd be better if this game had no active pause at all. Are you saying that active pause should be present for everything BUT setting up way points then? That's a poor balancing measure. It was said already, an experienced player would be able to set up waypoints in a manner of seconds anyway, and it's not the setup that's the problem - but the accuracy and inevitability of the missile.

Yes, I know because I said it. I assumed factotum was referring to a real time implementation of the blaster launcher that would disable pausing when setting waypoints for balance reasons, and I said why it probably wouldn't work so well.

I'm not sure if your solution is the best answer either unless the accuracy degradation was truly unforgiving (and I hate accuracy degradation since it adds more luck to the game); just look at much clearance you have in most alien base facilities for example, which is one of the most restrictive environments in the game.

Personally I would probably have the blast power rapidly taper off the further the missile goes, and/or at each way point. Giving it a more realistic (but static) turning radius is also probably a good idea. This gives it more consistent and less luck based performance (relative to accuracy/turn radius decay) and allows it to fulfill its primary combat role of leveraging indirect firepower while restricting its effective range and overall precision to something that's fair.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-06, 02:03 PM

If they really want to implement real-time tactical combat similar to the Afterblank serie, they seriously need to implement 2 things:

1- better reactive soldiers. I put Soldier Y on to watch out a corridor. I want him to react by himself and start shooting after reporting.

2- MORE LETHAL WEAPONS. What made the first xcom so great was the sheer lethality of all guns. You could lose an entire squad of 3 with a single reactive autofire. I don't want to have to shoot at a stupid ennemy for 15 seconds or him to die.

Combat is fast, lethal. Make it a positional tactical game. And don't put ****ing stacks of 30 enemies together just for difficulty purpose. What you don't see is scarier than what you see a lot. The game is not about mowing down hordes of ennemy, it's about finding the little bastards before they get their drop on your platoon.

Surrealistik

2012-01-06, 02:08 PM

Agree with those things. Personally I think X-Com Apocalypse pulled off real time admirably; it was fast paced, deadly, and tactical, while giving the player everything he needed to make the experience a fluid and enjoyable one.

I'd really, really love to see support for pointbuy and prefab multiplayer battlescape skirmishes.

Wraith

2012-01-06, 03:21 PM

Obligatory Youtube Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs)

Regarding the game: I knew it. The year that the world is supposed to come to an end, the last thing that happens? We get a genuine XCom game.

Typical. Just fraggin' typical. :smalltongue:

tensai_oni

2012-01-06, 03:41 PM

Grif

2012-01-07, 05:13 AM

Apocalypse had very clunky controls but AI of your soldiers was good. They shot on their own volition and even sometimes dodged enemy fire! One thing that sucked was pathfinding, but we can't have anything.

And deploying smoke cover by making one of your agents bang a grenade against his skull (no timer on release) never got old.

So yes if we want real time X-Com missions, Apoc is the way to do it.

I agree. I have seen Apoc's AI take cover under barriers or using nearby walls as cover. If no cover is available they go prone. And yes, their reaction time is excellent. (Unless a Popper shows up, then they all stand dumbly waiting to be exploded against. But generally pretty autonomous.)

Truly remarkable for such an old game.

Bastian Weaver

2012-01-07, 05:33 AM

For real? That's good, that's very good. I'm looking forward to this game.
And I, too, preferred laser rifles to heavy plasma. Never met an alien that couldn't be killed with a couple of laser auto-shots.
Fun fact: a friend of mine used those old Avalanche missiles for his ships until he noticed that blaster rockets did way more damage to the UFOs than those missiles. Personal weapon being more powerful than ship weapon? That's ridiculous!

shadow_archmagi

2012-01-07, 09:22 AM

Primed grenades are the single most useful tool against Chrysalis.

It's a safety pedal. You prime the 'nade, which blows up and kill the Chrysalid, the zombie and other potential victims.

Otherwise, I'd rather nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

In my experience, that has the following effect:

1. Chrysalid kills soldier
2. Soldier becomes zombie
3. Grenade detonates, everyone around dies
4. Zombie is among everyone else
5. With zombie dead, new Chrysalid spawns. Net Chysalids killed: 0

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-07, 09:32 AM

Net Chysalids killed: 0

Which is still an improvement over all other possible outcomes of point 1. :smallamused:

Cespenar

2012-01-07, 09:32 AM

In my experience, that has the following effect:

1. Chrysalid kills soldier
2. Soldier becomes zombie
3. Grenade detonates, everyone around dies
4. Zombie is among everyone else
5. With zombie dead, new Chrysalid spawns. Net Chysalids killed: 0

4b. First Chrysalid is among everyone else too.

shadow_archmagi

2012-01-07, 10:25 AM

4b. First Chrysalid is among everyone else too.

True, but I'd rather have the soldiers near the one that got et just gun down the chyrsallid and then leave the zombie alive until I can set up a firing squad for him and his demon buddy

tensai_oni

2012-01-07, 10:46 AM

Terrible spoilers

Chryssalids are actually not that dangerous. Their TA pool is huge but their AI sucks and they don't know how to use it effectively at all. If you have any weapon better than laser pistols, they will be deadly only in an ambush. And all aliens are deadly in an ambush.

I'd take Snakemen terror sites over Ethereal any day. Or Muton.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-07, 10:51 AM

Wasn't there incendiary ammo that killed zombie and prevented the emerging of a new chrysalis?

Cespenar

2012-01-07, 12:19 PM

True, but I'd rather have the soldiers near the one that got et just gun down the chyrsallid and then leave the zombie alive until I can set up a firing squad for him and his demon buddy

Well, I didn't use the primed grenade tactics personally, I was just clarifying. I usually play normally and curse a lot when chrysalids happen.

Gaius Marius

2012-01-07, 12:45 PM

My soldiers always have grenade with them. So it's just a matter of adjusting when they go into a hot zone.

To be honest, I spread my guys around a lot when I realize there are Chrysalid. It's a matter of delicate sweeping deployment (which is why the real time combat has to be deadly and not 10-shots-to-kill-an-alien.

I rather use my grenade to flush out aliens hiding behind the corner of doorways. I want to give a freaking dartboard to my men for off-duty training.

I am just sorry we can't collapse buildings. There was once two sectoids hiding in the higher level of a barn. I surrounded the barn with 9-10 squashes with laser rifles and systematically peeled the walls away (advantage of Laser weaponry!!)

GloatingSwine

2012-01-07, 01:01 PM

Laser Rifles beat heavy plasma. No need to worry about the logistics of ammunition, and I've never been praying I had the additional firepower Heavy Plasma offered, even against Mutons.

On the other hand, by about three months in the enemy will all have heavy plasma anyway, so there's no need to worry about the logistics of ammunition anyway.

Grif

2012-01-07, 02:23 PM

I am just sorry we can't collapse buildings. There was once two sectoids hiding in the higher level of a barn. I surrounded the barn with 9-10 squashes with laser rifles and systematically peeled the walls away (advantage of Laser weaponry!!)

This is why I loved Apoc.

There's this one time, I had a mission in a Marsec Weapon Factory. There was literally explosives everywhere. One strategically placed grenade and I brought half the place down in smoke, fire and alien blood. The mop up was easy. :smalltongue:

factotum

2012-01-07, 05:47 PM

This is why I loved Apoc.

There's this one time, I had a mission in a Marsec Weapon Factory. There was literally explosives everywhere. One strategically placed grenade and I brought half the place down in smoke, fire and alien blood. The mop up was easy. :smalltongue:

I've seen a Youtube video of someone taking out all the supporting columns of a slum building and letting the aliens die in the collapsing ruins...

Actually, just searched for it, and here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWvmbFeHX1g

tensai_oni

2012-01-07, 06:30 PM

I hate that map. Seeing it going down in flames is oddly satisfying.

Copper8642

2012-01-08, 12:08 AM

Grif

2012-01-08, 12:22 AM

I've seen a Youtube video of someone taking out all the supporting columns of a slum building and letting the aliens die in the collapsing ruins...

Actually, just searched for it, and here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWvmbFeHX1g

That's... that's so beautiful. *wipes tear.*

Gaius Marius

2012-01-08, 01:00 AM

Oooohhh, color me interested. I'd especially like better balanced equipment and better alien AI. X-Com lost a bit of it's magic for me when I'd look online and see "Use an army with this loadout, mass produce and sell this for money, take advantage of the AI by doing this (usually flying), etc. etc."

I'd rather have limited jet packs than unlimited flight, for easier move around.

And subject to lots of sound, so audio tracking by the ennemy. That'll give a nice tactical decision to take.. But with risks.

Muz

2012-01-09, 01:08 PM

Here's a video from GameInformer (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/06/why-firaxis-loves-xcom.aspx) (which admittedly I have not yet been able to watch due to where I'm posting from) on "Why Firaxis Loves X-COM" that may be relevant to the discussion. From what I hear about the video, it sounds encouraging...

Also, an article from Gamespy (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/xcom-enemy-unknown/1216039p1.html) about some of the things the new game needs to include. I'd switch #2 with #1, personally. Nameable soldiers is what really makes the game interesting for me. ("Muton bastards! They got Teal'C!" :smallbiggrin:

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-09, 01:55 PM

Also, an article from Gamespy (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/xcom-enemy-unknown/1216039p1.html) about some of the things the new game needs to include. I'd switch #2 with #1, personally. Nameable soldiers is what really makes the game interesting for me. ("Muton bastards! They got Teal'C!" :smallbiggrin:

It's absolutely essential to the feel of the game. Yuri Ragulin is a generic, faceless pawn to be sacrificed at my convenience. Agent Chartreuse* is a trusted and loved comrade-in-arms and his death would be a crippling blow to morale.

*I usually code-name my personnel with colours. The later in the game I get, the more obscure the colours.

That video makes me feel a lot more optimistic. It looks like they know what made X-Com so awesome, which is about half the battle. :smallwink:

Muz

2012-01-09, 02:24 PM

It's absolutely essential to the feel of the game. Yuri Ragulin is a generic, faceless pawn to be sacrificed at my convenience. Agent Chartreuse* is a trusted and loved comrade-in-arms and his death would be a crippling blow to morale.

*I usually code-name my personnel with colours. The later in the game I get, the more obscure the colours.

X-Com was the game that introduced me to the existence of the name Manfred. I usually renamed squaddies after myself, my friends, and then occasional assorted fictional characters. Certain ones would get, ah, "cloned" if they were killed, but as I was renaming new people rather than reloading a save, the clones sometimes had defects.

Having named squadmates always made Cydonia especially dramatic, as half the group usually didn't even make it into the base, and 95% of the rest died on the way to the control room. :smallbiggrin: X-Com wasn't just a game, it was a story that was always different.

That video makes me feel a lot more optimistic. It looks like they know what made X-Com so awesome, which is about half the battle. :smallwink:

Good to hear about the video. Now I'm more anxious to watch it.

tensai_oni

2012-01-09, 02:42 PM

Also, an article from Gamespy (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/xcom-enemy-unknown/1216039p1.html) about some of the things the new game needs to include.

I agree but one thing made me curious. To quote:

Designers assume that players can't deal with the loss of a hero and all the progress they've made in gradually leveling up their stats, so a soldier's wounds are never fatal -- even a direct hit from the enemy's most powerful weapons merely knock them unconscious.

Exactly what games are they talking about here? I can only think of UFO: Extraterrestrials, but that game was bad anyway. Bad and trying to hide behind a flimsy excuse of "we're retro on purpose" - no you're not retro, you're just bad.

Anyway, even the After-Blank series had lethal warfare. Characters had more HP than in the first X-Com game, but so did the enemies so they needed it. And Apocalypse was somewhere between this and the classic.

EDIT: I change my mind about agreeing with the article. Number 4 is so unnecessary. I do not want to see old aliens rehashed. Give me new instead.

psilontech

2012-01-09, 02:53 PM

Why Fraxis Loves XCOM (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/06/why-firaxis-loves-xcom.aspx)

This really takes the cautious out of my previous cautiously optimistic outlook on the game.

To see how much reverence they have for the original and how much they love it puts me to ease as to the future of the franchise.

shadow_archmagi

2012-01-09, 03:08 PM

I think the most incredible part of playing xcom was when I named a series of squaddies after my friend Richard Mclawhorn, who has a habit of teamkilling. Every single one of them had a perchant for wildly inaccurate friendly fire and extremely low psi resistance.

Richard the Third actually killed eight of the squaddies he was assigned to protect during an assault on an Ethereal ship. We won the day, but R3 was listed as "Missing in Action" in the end. I don't think anyone looked very hard.

chiasaur11

2012-01-09, 03:57 PM

X-Com was the game that introduced me to the existence of the name Manfred. I usually renamed squaddies after myself, my friends, and then occasional assorted fictional characters. Certain ones would get, ah, "cloned" if they were killed, but as I was renaming new people rather than reloading a save, the clones sometimes had defects.

Having named squadmates always made Cydonia especially dramatic, as half the group usually didn't even make it into the base, and 95% of the rest died on the way to the control room. :smallbiggrin: X-Com wasn't just a game, it was a story that was always different.

I've never had trouble with Cydonia. Coordination. Psychic powers. Tanks. Blasterbombs. These are out watchwords.

X-Com's finest may leave Terra as men and women, but the arrive at Cydonia in a manner fitting the place.

Greeks call the God of War Ares. The Romans? Mars.

After the Cydonia raid, the scattered survivors of the Starspawn fleets will call it "X-Com" and tremble.

Muz

2012-01-09, 04:10 PM

I agree but one thing made me curious. To quote:

Designers assume that players can't deal with the loss of a hero and all the progress they've made in gradually leveling up their stats, so a soldier's wounds are never fatal -- even a direct hit from the enemy's most powerful weapons merely knock them unconscious.

Exactly what games are they talking about here? I can only think of UFO: Extraterrestrials, but that game was bad anyway. Bad and trying to hide behind a flimsy excuse of "we're retro on purpose" - no you're not retro, you're just bad.

Off the top of my head: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2... Not quite the same type of game, but it does demonstrate a shift. Squadmates are fine and get up after pretty much anything. In older games (Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, etc.) they'd be dead until you got them resurrected--and occasionally not even then.

As for new or old aliens, I'd like to see a mix. Keep the iconic ones: sectoids, chryssalids, cyberdisks (maybe ethereals, but I could go either way on those), but bring in some new ones, too.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-09, 05:00 PM

Off the top of my head: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2... Not quite the same type of game, but it does demonstrate a shift. Squadmates are fine and get up after pretty much anything. In older games (Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, etc.) they'd be dead until you got them resurrected--and occasionally not even then.

Those are really different games to X-Com though. In an RPG where you have an inherently limited party carrying around literal deadweight is annoying.

In a strategy game like X-Com your goons are interchangeable as it is, and it was really only the fact that fresh recruits were more likely to shoot the end of their own nose than the alien five feet away that made you preserve the ones that had survived to level up to the point of borderline competence.

I'd prefer something like the original Valkyria Chronicles. If a soldier is downed but rescued within a short period they are hospitalised and out for a month or so of game time, if they're not stabilised with a medkit in three turns then they're permanently dead. That gives the player a tactical choice to make, write off the downed trooper and lose his skills and experience or take a risk that what happened to him will happen to the next guy that tries to save him.

factotum

2012-01-09, 05:12 PM

In a strategy game like X-Com your goons are interchangeable as it is, and it was really only the fact that fresh recruits were more likely to shoot the end of their own nose than the alien five feet away that made you preserve the ones that had survived to level up to the point of borderline competence.

That's not really true. Goons in any of the original 3 X-Com games had differing stats, which meant the ones with high stats were generally better and worth preserving--it was a real kick in the nethers when the super-duper soldier you'd carefully kept alive through half a dozen missions died in some stupid or inconsequential way (which they almost invariably did). This is why people generally used raw rookies for scouting--they were expendable, the Colonels were not!

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-09, 05:21 PM

As for new or old aliens, I'd like to see a mix. Keep the iconic ones: sectoids, chryssalids, cyberdisks (maybe ethereals, but I could go either way on those), but bring in some new ones, too.

I agree. I would certainly not miss Floaters in the least. Sectoids and Chryssalids absolutely must stay. Cyberdisks, Ethereals and Mutons too. Celatid/Silacoids on the other hand...

Some new races would be pretty nice, too.

Muz

2012-01-09, 05:37 PM

Celatid and Silacoids I didn't even know EXISTED until after I'd beaten the game the first time, if I remember right. (I can recall having a "What the @#&*! is THAT?" moment, thinking I'd already surely seen everything the game had to offer.)

But yeah, I don't particularly care if I never see those again.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-09, 07:46 PM

I've barely even played the game, and I know that Sectoids and Chrysalids MUST stay. And considering we've already seen a Sectoid pic, and I doubt the team would axe the Chrysalids, I would bet the Chrysalids are the team's favourite alien...

Surrealistik

2012-01-09, 08:09 PM

Cristo Meyers

2012-01-09, 08:49 PM

Some more news for ya'll to chew on:

XCom: Enemy Unknown Gets Screens and Details (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115131-XCom-Enemy-Unknown-Gets-Screens-and-Details)

Points of interest:

-Three new screenshots

-This game is part of the new 2Kgames XCom continuity.

-Firaxis is "streamlining aspects of the game and removing no small amount of micromanagement."

Trazoi

2012-01-09, 08:56 PM

-Three new screenshots
The XCOM soldiers don't look the same without comic book hair. :smallfrown:

chiasaur11

2012-01-09, 11:44 PM

Why no Sectopod love? Those things were tough mind control resistant bipedal badasses with autofire; arguably one of the very deadliest (if not _the_ deadliest) aliens in the game, and certainly the hardiest (though granted, by the time you encounter them, you're adequately equipped).

I think one even survived a direct blaster launcher hit in a (post-patch) Superhuman level game of mine.

I wouldn't be surprised. I ran the numbers. They're the one thing in UFO defense that could survive a blast. High armor, some resistance to explosives.

I their lack of reputation is, well, what you said. They come when you're more or less ready.

Worse, they don't have any tricks. Chryssalids, Eths, Sectoids, Blaster Bomb launchers, they're Outside Context Problems. You have no idea what you're dealing with on first contact. Sectopods are tough, but they're "just" tough, well armed, and accurate. A logical extension of existing enemies.

(Lobstermen, on the other hand, are almost guaranteed to survive a blaster bomb. Thus, their reputation.)

Balain

2012-01-10, 12:00 AM

I'm pretty excited to here this, after watching the video even more so. Think I'll do play some ufo Enemy defense right now....WOOOT

factotum

2012-01-10, 02:31 AM

-Firaxis is "streamlining aspects of the game and removing no small amount of micromanagement."

Now that worries me. The developers of MOO3 tried to do the same thing and managed to remove all the *interesting* micro-management while leaving the boring, dull parts! Besides, having to carefully pick which alien crap to sell in order to buy your next tank was always fun, IMHO...

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-10, 07:09 AM

-Firaxis is "streamlining aspects of the game and removing no small amount of micromanagement."

:elan: Dun dun dunnn!

But no, seriously. This worries me.

tensai_oni

2012-01-10, 11:21 AM

Off the top of my head: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2... Not quite the same type of game, but it does demonstrate a shift.

Herp a derp, don't I feel stupid now. I thought the article was talking about X-Com games (and their spiritual successors) in particular, not video games in general.

psilontech

2012-01-10, 12:37 PM

Now that worries me. The developers of **** tried to do the same thing

I was under the assumption that excessive cursing was against forum rules.

Adding to the point, what do you mean by that? That particular franchise never had a third installment.

It never happened.

tensai_oni

2012-01-10, 12:50 PM

I do not mind a little streamlining. Compare economy/resource systems of the three After-Blank titles. Aftershock's is the least streamlined, with individual resources. It's also a complete mess. Afterlight is more streamlined, and works best: you do not worry about individual resources, but number of mines still influences what you can or cannot build. Aftermath is too streamlined, with your production capacity proportional to industrial bases and that's it.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-10, 01:06 PM

One example of beneficial streamlining in X-Com would be to remove the logistics of purchasing ammunition. Rather than having to buy stacks of missiles every time you send the interceptors out or crates of bullets every mission, just have their cost automatically deducted at the end of each month with the rest of the wages, base upkeep, etc.

Derthric

2012-01-10, 02:14 PM

How sad is it that I didn't know you could rename squaddies till today?!

For all we know streamlined might be a base management screen that lets you control and set all your bases from one screen instead of having to jump from one to another to double check vehicle load outs.

tyckspoon

2012-01-10, 09:06 PM

shadow_archmagi

2012-01-11, 08:37 AM

Loadout management in general is a perfectly good target for streamlining. Having to hand-assign all the gear to your soldiers (to make sure that your psy-capable guys actually were holding the psyamps, for example, and that your strong heavy weapons dude actually did have the rocket launcher/blaster launcher) was just stupid.

Yeah. Or how about when you brought 14 laser rifles and 3 rocket launchers with the intent that the rocket troopers should have a sidearm, only to have to manually assign the rifles every single time?

Zen Monkey

2012-01-11, 09:01 AM

Thanatos 51-50

2012-01-11, 11:12 AM

Naming is key. New guys start as "Medic" and with a pistol and medkit until they've earned something better. They can later get a name based on their accomplishments, like "Eagle Eye" or "Quick Draw." You want armor? That's for officers, go work for it.

How wonderfully - Catachan.

I name my soldiers based on their stats.
Note that in the following, X is a last name.
High Accuracy soldiers are "Marksmen X"
High Reactions/TU soldiers are "Scout X"
Average Soldiers are "Trooper X"
Actually Psy-capable soldiers are "Psyker X"
High Psi/High Accuracy soldiers are "Psyrifle X"
Those with excellent Psychic scores and marksmanship scores are "Paladin X"
Anybody with a Psi of 98 or 99 is "Emperor X"
Psi 100s are "God-Emperor X"
Scouts with a high Psi Score are "Psytrooper X"

Muz

2012-01-11, 12:40 PM

My own policy: Those with particularly good (or above-average) stats are given names. Those without are tossed out of the program--unless there are no more potential hires available and we're short some people, in which case those without are named "Cannon Fodder" and treated as such. :smallamused:

Stay alive long enough, or improve your stats well enough (or commit some other heroic feat), and you may be granted a name.

...Or you may simply be fired when some better recruits show up. It's hard out there for a squaddie... :smallwink:

Trazoi

2012-01-11, 06:01 PM

I leave them with their assigned names, because I like getting attached to the units and feeling guilty when they get gunned down. But for some I tack on a single letter at the end to denote their importance - at the beginning a G for gold shirts to put on the leadership track, R for the red shirts to send in first and feel less guilty when they snuff it, then later letters like P for psi or H for heavy weapons if someone needs a specific load out.

Some names are popular for XCOM soldiers. For some reason I seem to recruit a lot of Sylvies - there always seems to be at least one in every Skyranger.

Tengu_temp

2012-01-11, 06:57 PM

Psi 100s are "God-Emperor X"

Gee, I wonder what started this tradition! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116489)

(Those who haven't read that LP yet, do it. It's funny, it ran all the way to a very satisfying ending, and I'm awesome in it, which is always a plus.)

Cespenar

2012-01-11, 07:03 PM

Some names are popular for XCOM soldiers. For some reason I seem to recruit a lot of Sylvies - there always seems to be at least one in every Skyranger.

Lot of Yuris as well, IIRC.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-11, 07:15 PM

Gee, I wonder what started this tradition! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116489)

(Those who haven't read that LP yet, do it. It's funny, it ran all the way to a very satisfying ending, and I'm awesome in it, which is always a plus.)

Hey, even if you have read it, read it again. I'm reading it again, and it's AWESOME.

Cristo Meyers

2012-01-11, 07:38 PM

Some names are popular for XCOM soldiers. For some reason I seem to recruit a lot of Sylvies - there always seems to be at least one in every Skyranger.

I get a pretty random spread of names, but in exchange I get a skill randomizer that has made all the female soldiers hyper-competent sharpshooters (and tough as nails to boot, first woman off the Ranger took a shot to the face and still finished the mission) while the men are, at best, really great at wasting ammo.

Does make it easier to determine at a glance who should take that "need to make" shot, though :smalltongue:

Grif

2012-01-11, 07:41 PM

Crossposting this from another forum.

I think you guys will find this very interesting.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30658959/1326315619680.jpg

iyaerP

2012-01-11, 07:45 PM

sooooo prettty.

chiasaur11

2012-01-11, 08:00 PM

I get a pretty random spread of names, but in exchange I get a skill randomizer that has made all the female soldiers hyper-competent sharpshooters (and tough as nails to boot, first woman off the Ranger took a shot to the face and still finished the mission) while the men are, at best, really great at wasting ammo.

Does make it easier to determine at a glance who should take that "need to make" shot, though :smalltongue:

I've only had one game where the CO wasn't a Russian woman. And that one I rigged.

That includes TFTD. It's incredibly unlikely, but there you go.

Smight

2012-01-12, 03:36 AM

I agree but one thing made me curious. To quote:

Exactly what games are they talking about here? I can only think of UFO: Extraterrestrials, but that game was bad anyway. Bad and trying to hide behind a flimsy excuse of "we're retro on purpose" - no you're not retro, you're just bad.

XCOM FPS has unkilable squadmates,

also new info
The Art Of XCOM: Enemy Unknown (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/11/the-art-of-xcom-enemy-unknown.aspx)

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 10:38 AM

Not really sold on the ultra-bulky soldier aesthetics. Would have much preferred something more realistic and _vulnerable_ looking.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-12, 11:05 AM

Gee, I wonder what started this tradition! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116489)

(Those who haven't read that LP yet, do it. It's funny, it ran all the way to a very satisfying ending, and I'm awesome in it, which is always a plus.)

There's a reason every single HWP I get is called Lopez. The reason being the HWPs not called Lopez last about half as long.

Smight

2012-01-12, 03:06 PM

more news (http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2012/01/xcom-enemy-unknown-aj/) from Angry Joe

Tengu_temp

2012-01-12, 03:12 PM

My brother predicted that hearing the news about this game will make Angry Joe dance from joy. He was right.

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 03:17 PM

I kinda was put off by Angry Joe when he jumped aboard that ludicrous and overblown 'DNF sucks' bandwagon, but this display of raw, squealing joy over X-Com has put him back in my good books.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-12, 03:33 PM

Not really sold on the ultra-bulky soldier aesthetics. Would have much preferred something more realistic and _vulnerable_ looking.

X-Com soldiers were always built like Slab Hardbeef.

Didn't stop them dying in droves.

Cespenar

2012-01-12, 03:35 PM

So, they removed what was possibly the most tactical aspect of the earlier games: Time Units. Great call. :smallannoyed:

Gaius Marius

2012-01-12, 03:41 PM

Tengu_temp

2012-01-12, 03:48 PM

I kinda was put off by Angry Joe when he jumped aboard that ludicrous and overblown 'DNF sucks' bandwagon, but this display of raw, squealing joy over X-Com has put him back in my good books.

Angry Joe is not among my favorite reviewers, mostly because he often deals with games I don't care about, but Duke Nukem Forever really deserves all the bashing it gets: if not for the quality, then at least for the fact that it's ridiculously juvenile and insulting. Duke Nukem 3D was only a bit juvenile and insulting, and made up for it by being a really fun game. DN4E doesn't have that excuse.

So, they removed what was possibly the most tactical aspect of the earlier games: Time Units. Great call. :smallannoyed:

I don't really care about time units - you can have a deeply tactical and challenging turn-based game without them. As long as the game will feel like the old Ufo, all is good.

shadow_archmagi

2012-01-12, 03:52 PM

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 03:52 PM

Angry Joe is not among my favorite reviewers, mostly because he often deals with games I don't care about, but Duke Nukem Forever really deserves all the bashing it gets: if not for the quality, then at least for the fact that it's ridiculously juvenile and insulting. Duke Nukem 3D was only a bit juvenile and insulting, and made up for it by being a really fun game. DN4E doesn't have that excuse.

Have you actually played DNF? The multiplayer is a ton of fun; it delivers. Great FPS experience, and IMHO superior and more skill orientated and diverse vis a vis big industry names like Gears of War and Halo.

The singleplayer was hit and miss but overall quite fun; even judging it by that alone it was not an awful game. I can understand middling reviews if the rating was strictly concerned with SP (MP deserves above average _at least_), but anyone rating it less than 5 out of 10 was definitely on the Duke bashing bandwagon.

And yeah, don't agree with 'juvenile and insulting'; as a parody (which it obviously was) it was great so long as you're not overtly prudish and PC.

AJ ain't the Gospel. He had raw, squealing joy over Sword of the Stars 2 too.

I'll take everything with a grain of salt.

I never looked to AJ as the definitive word on game reviews, even before his silly DNF tirade; I just love his enthusiasm for my beloved series.

Cespenar

2012-01-12, 03:55 PM

I don't really care about time units - you can have a deeply tactical and challenging turn-based game without them. As long as the game will feel like the old Ufo, all is good.

I don't know, it worked in the earlier X-Coms, and it worked in Jagged Alliance. Why fix what is not broken, when there are plenty other parts to renew?

Thanatos 51-50

2012-01-12, 04:14 PM

Gee, I wonder what started this tradition! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116489)

(Those who haven't read that LP yet, do it. It's funny, it ran all the way to a very satisfying ending, and I'm awesome in it, which is always a plus.)

Hey, that was my first exposure to X-com and its infinite glories!

GloatingSwine

2012-01-12, 04:16 PM

Time units were pretty cool though; they were the most important resource to manage, and there was nothing like turning a corner and seeing an alien and realizing that you don't have quiet enough time to shoot.

On the other hand, the interface was pretty much designed to make that not happen by including the buttons that preserved sufficient TU for whatever kind of shot you wanted.

Time Units were only ever a way to limit the amount of Stuff that your individual X-Com goon could do in a turn, and I'm not sure as they're necessarily the best way of doing so.

Muz

2012-01-12, 04:27 PM

On the other hand, the interface was pretty much designed to make that not happen by including the buttons that preserved sufficient TU for whatever kind of shot you wanted.

Time Units were only ever a way to limit the amount of Stuff that your individual X-Com goon could do in a turn, and I'm not sure as they're necessarily the best way of doing so.

What are they replacing them with? (I haven't had time/a chance to read all of the linked articles.)

Thanatos 51-50

2012-01-12, 04:27 PM

On the other hand, the interface was pretty much designed to make that not happen by including the buttons that preserved sufficient TU for whatever kind of shot you wanted.

Time Units were only ever a way to limit the amount of Stuff that your individual X-Com goon could do in a turn, and I'm not sure as they're necessarily the best way of doing so.

I never used those buttons, personally.
Besides, TUs let you stand in one corner of the map and spam full-auto fire. This new system doesn't sound like it will allow that.

lord_khaine

2012-01-12, 05:08 PM

Im going to buy this game when it comes out, just on general principle.

chiasaur11

2012-01-12, 05:10 PM

What are they replacing them with? (I haven't had time/a chance to read all of the linked articles.)

Move and attack or move and move.

Seems there'll be other actions available, especially with special training (IE, snipers can't attack and move without a perk)

And Duke Nukem is shizno, plain and simple. Worse, it's dull shizno. It copies modern gameplay mechanics like the two weapon limit and regenerating health without understanding why games like Halo have them. It claims it's a "parody" without understanding that means more than simply quoting action movies and calling other games "for ****s", and the writing is deeply, deeply vile on a number of levels.

Add in a checkpoint save system, and it's pretty indefensible.

I love the Killscreen review (http://killscreendaily.com/articles/reviews/review-duke-nukem-forever), though. So that's nice.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-12, 05:12 PM

I only just discovered those buttons, and I love them. I was always wondering why my soldiers were never taking reaction shots... Now I managed to clear out the entire UFO landing site by sitting 3 guys by the door, while the rest of them cleared out the surrounding area. By the times the surrounding area was clear, all 4 or 5 aliens in the UFO had attempted to leave and died for their troubles. :smallbiggrin:

warty goblin

2012-01-12, 05:25 PM

I don't know, it worked in the earlier X-Coms, and it worked in Jagged Alliance. Why fix what is not broken, when there are plenty other parts to renew?

I tend to prefer a simple action system to AP systems. One of the things that turn based games can do is have wonderfully precise and elegant rules, and I tend to find two action systems more elegant than APs, which add a lot of granularity and management hassle without necessarily any elegance or meaningfully different options.

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 06:12 PM

And Duke Nukem is shizno, plain and simple. Worse, it's dull shizno. It copies modern gameplay mechanics like the two weapon limit and regenerating health without understanding why games like Halo have them. It claims it's a "parody" without understanding that means more than simply quoting action movies and calling other games "for ****s", and the writing is deeply, deeply vile on a number of levels.

Add in a checkpoint save system, and it's pretty indefensible.

So basically a rehash of every half-baked, overstated criticism that is basically untrue (Ego excepted).

Personally, I like the two weapon limit; while I revolted at first, later on I found myself agreeing; it works, it forces the player to make interesting strategic choices and tradeoffs. The implementation of Ego as unconditional regeneration I did dislike; they really ought to have made it performance/kill/damage based; besides the versimilitude of regaining Ego from kicking ass you could actually have Duke play like his macho persona instead of running and hiding like every other modern FPS protagonist.

As for the parody, it's certainly not the best, but it got chuckles out of me, and I wasn't expecting more; that's par for DN3D. Though deeply, deeply vile writing? Absurd exaggeration.

Checkpoint saving as a flaw that makes the game 'indefensible'? I don't get it.

At the end of the day though, I didn't get it for the SP, so I guess that's a big part of the reason I generally hold it in higher esteem; the SP doesn't matter to me. It was the MP experience I was concerned about, and that said I found it far more entertaining than that of any Halo or GoW title, with more interesting and diverse weaponry that offered a greater range of tactical considerations and possibilities. It felt like classic DN3D only better and more refined.

As for the new X-Com I don't really care for the substitution of TUs with DnD style 'actions'; I guess that makes me a grognard. I've always thought TU management was one of the hallmark skills to be mastered in X-Com tacticals, and I love how TU systems allow for superior granularity. There's ways to implement a TU system without scaring away the casual gamer; a path highlighting system, and at a glance TU cost assessments for example can really streamline the TU management process such that it's tenable for a wider audience (and better for everyone in general).

Cespenar

2012-01-12, 06:14 PM

I tend to prefer a simple action system to AP systems. One of the things that turn based games can do is have wonderfully precise and elegant rules, and I tend to find two action systems more elegant than APs, which add a lot of granularity and management hassle without necessarily any elegance or meaningfully different options.

I disagree on the "without meaningfully different options" part. There are many, many different stuff you can pull with AP systems, like stepping, shooting and stepping back; having different terrain eat up more AP; different shooting types eating different APs; very detailed item use, especially when coupled with an inventory system (for example moving a few steps, throwing a medikit to a nearby soldier, and using the rest of the AP to prepare an interrupt, etc.); deciding where and when to reload; etc. Heck, Jagged Alliance 2 even made it so that repeated shots against the same enemy costs less AP, compared to changing targets between shots.

Seriously, X-Coms, Jagged Alliance 2. AP system at their finest.

It's a direct trade-off of simplicity vs. depth. Simplicity can bring elegance with it, I agree, but you can't really deny the freedom the aforementioned games offer with their AP systems.

Zevox

2012-01-12, 06:20 PM

So, I hear this is going to have a console release. This interests me, as consoles rarely get strategy games, and practically never get strategy games that aren't tactical JRPGs (Disgaea, Fire Emblem, etc).

Of course, I know nothing about the series and am pretty much interested solely because of the genre at this point, but hey, I'm sure there'll be a demo before the release that'll give me a chance to see whether I'll like this particular game or not. And since it was just now announced it's probably not going to be releasing in March or anytime around then, which is a big plus for me at this point.

I disagree on the "without meaningfully different options" part. There are many, many different stuff you can pull with AP systems, like stepping, shooting and stepping back; having different terrain eat up more AP;
Those are perfectly possible with a move-and-attack system as well. Fire Emblem does the former with its mounted units, and Advance Wars does the latter (even including different movement types that are affected differently by each terrain type, like tires vs treads on vehicles).

Zevox

Cespenar

2012-01-12, 06:33 PM

Wait, it's on console? Hmm, that explains the move-attack system then. Okay, I pull back my case, a move-attack system makes more sense than an AP system in a console game.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-12, 06:34 PM

Wait, it's on console? Hmm, that explains the move-attack system then. Okay, I pull back my case, a move-attack system makes more sense than an AP system in a console game.

Hilariously, both of the best AP systems I've ever used were in console games (Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter and Valkyria Chronicles).

Cespenar

2012-01-12, 06:40 PM

Hilariously, both of the best AP systems I've ever used were in console games (Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter and Valkyria Chronicles).

Really? Give that to my ignorance on console games, then. Fire Emblem and Advance Wars series are the only tactical games I've played on console.

Okay, hmm, so I return with my earlier case. :smalltongue:

Meh, never mind.

Zevox

2012-01-12, 06:43 PM

Wait, it's on console? Hmm, that explains the move-attack system then. Okay, I pull back my case, a move-attack system makes more sense than an AP system in a console game.
:smallconfused: Um, why? I don't see any reason why the system used should have any effect on that.

Zevox

Tengu_temp

2012-01-12, 06:45 PM

Have you actually played DNF?

Actually, no. But saying "it's better than the other generic cover-based shooters out there" is not exactly setting a high standard. And I haven't seen a single review, video or screenshot that'd make me one to play it, and I liked DN3D quite a lot.

And yeah, don't agree with 'juvenile and insulting'; as a parody (which it obviously was) it was great so long as you're not overtly prudish and PC.

Oh please. I'm very much not a prude, and what I saw of DN4E's "humour" is atrocious. It's not funny, it's not witty, it's hypocritical in its dissing of cover-based modern FPSes (because it follows a lot of their mechanics closely), and it is ridiculously misogynistic and objectifying towards women - even in comparison to DN3D, where all the women you met were captured by aliens and/or strippers! Calling it a parody is no excuse for ridiculously bad taste.

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 06:57 PM

Actually, no. But saying "it's better than the other generic cover-based shooters out there" is not exactly setting a high standard. And I haven't seen a single review, video or screenshot that'd make me one to play it, and I liked DN3D quite a lot.

So you haven't seen the multiplay then?

Also, if review scores are to be believed, to say it's better than Halo and GoW is apparently a pretty high standard. Personally I think the SP is passable. The MP is where the game shines. I wouldn't rate it as a great game, but 7/10 is probably about where my overall satisfaction with it is at given the MP.

Oh please. I'm very much not a prude, and what I saw of DN4E's "humour" is atrocious. It's not funny, it's not witty, it's hypocritical in its dissing of cover-based modern FPSes (because it follows a lot of their mechanics closely), and it is ridiculously misogynistic and objectifying towards women - even in comparison to DN3D, where all the women you met were captured by aliens and/or strippers! Calling it a parody is no excuse for ridiculously bad taste.

You essentially predicated your opinion on what is likely a showcase of the absolute worst parts in reviews trying to justify why they gave it an awful score, while it was framed in the most unflattering way possible?

Not seeing it being especially more objectifying towards women than DN3D either with the possible exception of the Holsom Twins and maybe the Strip Bar level which admittedly sucked, though not because it was sexist but because it was boring, pointless and incongruous. Again, this is a view likely prompted from a trashtalking reviewer's frame of reference.

Tengu_temp

2012-01-12, 07:07 PM

You essentially predicated your opinion on what is likely a showcase of the absolute worst parts in reviews trying to justify why they gave it an awful score, while it was framed in the most unflattering way possible?

Yes. Because you know what? If I did a similar showcase of the worst parts of DN3D, or any other game I can think of that has offensive elements in it, it still wouldn't look half as bad as what I've seen of DN4E. Also, DN3D has the small excuse of being released in the nineties, when people often didn't know better. It's 15 years later now, everyone went on (or at least should) - and Duke only went back.

This is getting offtopic. If you want to go on with DN4E, I suggest a separate thread.

Surrealistik

2012-01-12, 07:20 PM

Yes. Because you know what? If I did a similar showcase of the worst parts of DN3D, or any other game I can think of that has offensive elements in it, it still wouldn't look half as bad as what I've seen of DN4E. Also, DN3D has the small excuse of being released in the nineties, when people often didn't know better. It's 15 years later now, everyone went on (or at least should) - and Duke only went back.

This is getting offtopic. If you want to go on with DN4E, I suggest a separate thread.

I don't buy the 90s argument, and I don't see why the franchise needs to water itself down to accommodate the oversensitive.

Also, the worst of the worst with respect to the game's humour does not in any way constitute the overall quality of the game given that it's such a tiny subset, even if DN3D's nadirs of offensiveness weren't as bad. Personally I didn't have a problem with any of the stuff in game, even the ostensible 'worst'; I took it for what it is: a silly, satirical game that often ends up on the wrong side of political correctness being an entry in the DN franchise.

In summation, I feel a lot of people, especially those who haven't even played DNF blindly taking the word of raving, inane reviewers, are reflexively and unfairly jumping on a duke bashing bandwagon. I suspect that this is almost certainly due to disappointment with the middling result that came from its ridiculously long development cycle than any actual glaring flaws with the game, especially vis a vis existing FPS'.

And yes, I'd prefer PMs for any continuation personally.

iyaerP

2012-01-12, 07:21 PM

But, without time units, it won't be the XCOM I know and love!

tensai_oni

2012-01-12, 08:42 PM

I do not care about time units. X-Com is about atmosphere, about creepy aliens and about deadly combat that can kill your soldiers in just one shot. As long as mechanics deliver that I do not care whatever they are.

psilontech

2012-01-12, 10:28 PM

houlio

2012-01-13, 12:11 AM

XCOM thread.
Some might be a little nervous about the new fraxis game. Streamlined? Removed micromanagement? Being released for the console serfs?

I bring your attention to Xenonauts- Strategic Planetary Defense (http://www.xenonauts.com/). It appears to obediently follow XCOM based on the videos I found on youtube.

Plus, pre-orders are always good for a game like this. More money means a better product from an indie producer.

From my understanding it's also attempting to add new features to the X-COM formula, but these are things like expanded air combat, some improved inventory management features, and removing the availability of psi-powers for humans to name a few.

It also has a very pretty 2D art style, at least in my opinion.

warty goblin

2012-01-13, 12:39 AM

I disagree on the "without meaningfully different options" part. There are many, many different stuff you can pull with AP systems, like stepping, shooting and stepping back; having different terrain eat up more AP; different shooting types eating different APs; very detailed item use, especially when coupled with an inventory system (for example moving a few steps, throwing a medikit to a nearby soldier, and using the rest of the AP to prepare an interrupt, etc.); deciding where and when to reload; etc. Heck, Jagged Alliance 2 even made it so that repeated shots against the same enemy costs less AP, compared to changing targets between shots.

Seriously, X-Coms, Jagged Alliance 2. AP system at their finest.

It's a direct trade-off of simplicity vs. depth. Simplicity can bring elegance with it, I agree, but you can't really deny the freedom the aforementioned games offer with their AP systems.

I'm not saying APs are a bad system, but to me they are too fiddly to be elegant, and in terms of detail they are absolutely and completely outclassed by real-time with pause systems. JA 2 reduces the AP cost for shooting at the same enemy twice, 7.62: High Calibre accounts for the difference between getting an item out of a high or a low pocket, how amped up on adrenaline a soldier is, all sorts of stuff.

So if a system is already going to come in a very distant second on that front, why not go for something elegant? Sure they might allow for the occasional thing you can't do with a two-phase action system, but on the balance of actually making a fun game for more than a very small hardcore, is it worthwhile? I suspect not.

Trazoi

2012-01-13, 02:01 AM

XCOM thread.
Some might be a little nervous about the new fraxis game. Streamlined? Removed micromanagement? Being released for the console serfs?

I bring your attention to Xenonauts- Strategic Planetary Defense (http://www.xenonauts.com/). It appears to obediently follow XCOM based on the videos I found on youtube.

Plus, pre-orders are always good for a game like this. More money means a better product from an indie producer.
I'm in two minds about this one. While I like XCOM and I like indie games, it feels wrong to make the game this close to the original. I'd like it more if it was clearly inspired by XCOM but with enough original elements to make it the developer's own.

factotum

2012-01-13, 03:05 AM

I'm not saying APs are a bad system, but to me they are too fiddly to be elegant, and in terms of detail they are absolutely and completely outclassed by real-time with pause systems.

Actually, I preferred the real-time combat system they used in X-Com: Apocalypse to the turn-based system from the earlier games...is there any chance this new game will have that option, you reckon?

Cespenar

2012-01-13, 05:07 AM

So if a system is already going to come in a very distant second on that front, why not go for something elegant? Sure they might allow for the occasional thing you can't do with a two-phase action system, but on the balance of actually making a fun game for more than a very small hardcore, is it worthwhile? I suspect not.

I wouldn't say that X-com or JA2 served to very small hardcores, but since I had the general opinion about this subject about now, I'll shut up rather than drag this subject out any more.

Fri

2012-01-13, 07:32 AM

tensai_oni

2012-01-13, 07:51 AM

Even if they are first person shooter :smallbiggrin:?

Actually yes. The FPS X-Com game isn't a fail for me because it's an FPS but because the aliens aren't scary and your characters shrug off enemy gunfire too easily.

Grif

2012-01-13, 09:55 AM

Actually, I preferred the real-time combat system they used in X-Com: Apocalypse to the turn-based system from the earlier games...is there any chance this new game will have that option, you reckon?

Hear hear! Apoc showed that a X-COM game can be just as fun with a Real Time Combat system. Actually I very much preferred they reuse it, with only tweaks to the physics and the AI. Then it'll be complete. :smallbiggrin:

Surrealistik

2012-01-13, 10:31 AM

Hear hear! Apoc showed that a X-COM game can be just as fun with a Real Time Combat system. Actually I very much preferred they reuse it, with only tweaks to the physics and the AI. Then it'll be complete. :smallbiggrin:

Agree, I have to admit, much as I support the TU/AP paradigm, I'm a much bigger fan of the more dynamic real time + pausing. I find it far more immersive, and it makes things feel more intense, though, turn based definitely has the advantage of striking fear and apprehension into me every time I hit that end turn button, and sit tensed for glimpses of enemy activity.

Muz

2012-01-13, 01:55 PM

An interesting bit of news (http://pc.ign.com/articles/121/1216430p1.html). To sum up the linked article, they're delaying the release of the FPS until after the release of Enemy Unknown. Sounds like they want to hitch their wagon to Enemy Unknown first instead of burning interest with the FPS.

Gosh. Darn. :smallbiggrin:

Gaius Marius

2012-01-13, 05:00 PM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-13, 06:14 PM

What it means, though, is that this is an OFFICIAL recognition that the fans win. They complained enough about the FPS that the producers are now thinking that the FPS will have to ride on the success of the strategy game, not vice versa, which is what I expected the producers to do.

Trazoi

2012-01-13, 06:41 PM

Cristo Meyers

2012-01-13, 06:55 PM

That's really odd. While I love that the tactical game is given precedence, I don't think that can be the only reason for doing that. I don't know a lot about the game, but FPSes age faster than any other genre so sitting on it for a year would be foolish unless they're really concerned. Maybe the game needs a lot more work?

The announcement that the FPS was going to be delayed until fiscal year 2013 actually came over two months ago (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/11/08/xcom-delayed-beyond-q1-2012/). It had nothing to do with this TBS remake and more to do with needing other developers to work on Bioshock Infinite and probably not wanting to release on the same day as Mass Effect 3.

Trazoi

2012-01-13, 07:04 PM

The announcement that the FPS was going to be delayed until fiscal year 2013 actually came over two months ago (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/11/08/xcom-delayed-beyond-q1-2012/). It had nothing to do with this TBS remake and more to do with needing other developers to work on Bioshock Infinite and probably not wanting to release on the same day as Mass Effect 3.
That makes much more sense.

As an aside: How did they manage to make the title to a Bioshock game sound even less like the art deco FPS it is meant to describe? "Bioshock Infinite" is like a full bullet hell shmup title now.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-14, 10:03 PM

Just did my first Alien Base.

Nobody told me that Blasterbombs were that effective.
At least I got one guy out alive.

chiasaur11

2012-01-14, 10:17 PM

Just did my first Alien Base.

Nobody told me that Blasterbombs were that effective.
At least I got one guy out alive.

Imagine how fun it'll be once you get your own.

Surrealistik

2012-01-14, 11:05 PM

In my experience, the aliens actually using the BB Launcher is incredibly unlucky. I almost never see it happen.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-14, 11:18 PM

Weelp. I had them use 2 on one turn, which wiped out 2 of my best soldiers, who were preparing to storm the command center, and the second one JUST missed a third soldier, then the next turn she panicked and got taken out by a bomb, and then the turn after THAT they took out the tank.

I'd already lost 2 people to ambush in the tunnels, and another 3 in storming the area aroundabouts the command centre, and I think one more in one of the larger rooms, which left me with only the one guy left, plus a handful of green guys sitting at base. Looks like EuroCom construction will be put on hold for a month or two, or three, as I get NorAmCom back on it's feet.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-14, 11:22 PM

Yeah. Aliens don't use the BBLs too often. But when they do? Hoo boy.

Cristo Meyers

2012-01-15, 10:51 AM

In my experience, the aliens actually using the BB Launcher is incredibly unlucky. I almost never see it happen.

I saw it more often, but for me it was always unlucky for the aliens. Up until my most recent alien base a few days ago anytime they used the BB Launcher they always blew themselves to kingdom come.

Hopefully they won't make a habit of actually checking their waypoints in the future, I've got two more alien bases to nuke. But then my installation of X-COM is using some kind of mod (X-COM Extender...I think) because I couldn't get DOSBox on the Steam version working quite right.

Cogwheel

2012-01-15, 12:15 PM

Yeah. Aliens don't use the BBLs too often. But when they do? Hoo boy.

You know, I had a soldier who took a blaster bomb to the face, once. Point blank.

Wound up killing all the enemies around him. He shrugged it off. There were two X-Com casualties, but he was neither.

Surrealistik

2012-01-15, 12:46 PM

You know, I had a soldier who took a blaster bomb to the face, once. Point blank.

Wound up killing all the enemies around him. He shrugged it off. There were two X-Com casualties, but he was neither.

It's possible given the retarded 100% damage variation in X-Com. A blaster bomb can either do as little as 1 damage, or as much as 400 damage to a target.

warty goblin

2012-01-15, 12:49 PM

It's possible given the retarded 100% damage variation in X-Com. A blaster bomb can either do as little as 1 damage, or as much as 400 damage to a target.

Ya'know, games really need to start using probability distributions other than discrete uniform(1, n) - there's a wide variety of things out there that aren't simply really large dice. I want a bomb that follows a Gamma distribution damnit!

Cespenar

2012-01-15, 01:28 PM

Ya'know, games really need to start using probability distributions other than discrete uniform(1, n) - there's a wide variety of things out there that aren't simply really large dice. I want a bomb that follows a Gamma distribution damnit!

Agreed. Battle for Wesnoth, for one, really needs a normal distribution. Actually, I'd put normal distribution in a lot of games, if I had the chance.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-15, 02:18 PM

Well, got a fresh batch of faces together, and only took 82% casualties taking out the base this time! Three gals survived, even if one was wounded for the next three days, which meant that she wouldn't be going to the devastating Massacre of Novosibirsk, in which a handful of grenades, about 3 disks, and 4 sectoids were waiting at the bottom of the ramp. 2 survivors managed to escape, everyone else died. I managed to kill 4 of the sectoids? My rocket-launcher died quickly, a second soldier picked up his rocket and managed to shoot it and miss once before dying to reaction fire. A third soldier picked up the rocket and managed to load it before dying. A fourth soldier was shot by reaction firing when he was still one tile away from the rocket launcher. My tank was killed by a grenade followed by a plasma shot out of the black.

warty goblin

2012-01-15, 03:00 PM

Agreed. Battle for Wesnoth, for one, really needs a normal distribution. Actually, I'd put normal distribution in a lot of games, if I had the chance.

Well, something approximating normal anyway, I don't think negative damage is something one really wants. Better to take a normal variable and simply trim the tails so anything below zero is simply zero and anything above the maximum is simply the max, that way you shouldn't have freakish things like super-high damage hits popping up.

The better part is that using something like a normal allows for some very nice upgrade mechanics - just monkey around with the parameters. Better weapons? Increase the mean. Better training/targeting computers/whatever? Lower the variance, stuff like that. I'd at least find it far more sensible than 33-97 + 12 + 5 fire on crit, and far easier to glance at and get a handle on how one's unit is likely to perform.

chiasaur11

2012-01-15, 03:17 PM

It's possible given the retarded 100% damage variation in X-Com. A blaster bomb can either do as little as 1 damage, or as much as 400 damage to a target.

Well, if we're getting technical, explosives only have 50% variation in X-Com. So blaster bombs go from 100-300. Enough to instantly kill the majority of units in the game with a minimum damage roll.

The 100% variation is only for standard projectiles.

Cogwheel

2012-01-15, 04:20 PM

Well, if we're getting technical, explosives only have 50% variation in X-Com. So blaster bombs go from 100-300. Enough to instantly kill the majority of units in the game with a minimum damage roll.

The 100% variation is only for standard projectiles.

...100, you say?

I suddenly have no idea how he survived. Does armour come into it?

Cespenar

2012-01-15, 04:33 PM

The better part is that using something like a normal allows for some very nice upgrade mechanics - just monkey around with the parameters. Better weapons? Increase the mean. Better training/targeting computers/whatever? Lower the variance, stuff like that. I'd at least find it far more sensible than 33-97 + 12 + 5 fire on crit, and far easier to glance at and get a handle on how one's unit is likely to perform.

That's good stuff. By which, I mean, exactly what I was thinking! :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I can't believe why no game has tried a system like this.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-15, 04:38 PM

...100, you say?

I suddenly have no idea how he survived. Does armour come into it?

Yeah, an explosive in the same square uses the "Under" armour value.

warty goblin

2012-01-15, 05:25 PM

That's good stuff. By which, I mean, exactly what I was thinking! :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I can't believe why no game has tried a system like this.

I suspect there are three basic reasons:

1) They're designed by game designers, not applied mathematicians and statisticians. Which means that tools like probably distributions are somewhat outside their usual toolbox.

2) This is probably the case because modern computer or videogames owe more than a little to D&D and other analog wargames. These of course use dice, so dice are the immediate tool to hand.

3) How the hell do you explain how an N(15, 3) spear compares to an N(17, 10) spear? I mean anybody with any statistical background doesn't really have any problem with it, but your average gamer probably didn't take (and certainly doesn't remember) STAT 101.

Murska

2012-01-15, 05:38 PM

Just make the better one be named the "Keen Spear of Bloody Murder +3" and perhaps have some sort of an average damage number in the stats if you really need something like that.

I don't think people really need to be able to min-max that precisely, or at least to have it be made easier for them - those who want to do it will do it and will work for it, anyway. There's going to be internet resources for that stuff sooner rather than later, so it doesn't need to be in the game somewhere.

Trazoi

2012-01-15, 05:48 PM

2) This is probably the case because modern computer or videogames owe more than a little to D&D and other analog wargames. These of course use dice, so dice are the immediate tool to hand.

3) How the hell do you explain how an N(15, 3) spear compares to an N(17, 10) spear? I mean anybody with any statistical background doesn't really have any problem with it, but your average gamer probably didn't take (and certainly doesn't remember) STAT 101.
My hunch is that it's a combination of these two. It's easier to conceptualise what's going on when a bazooka is described as doing 10d6 damage rather than N(35, 5.4).

(Obviously you'd describe it as 35 +- something, but in that case why not make it 35 +- Nd6 or some such thing.)

tensai_oni

2012-01-15, 05:58 PM

In my experience, the aliens actually using the BB Launcher is incredibly unlucky. I almost never see it happen.

Which difficulty you play on? Good luck with alien base and battleship missions on Superhuman. Blaster bombs start flying the second aliens notice you.

factotum

2012-01-15, 06:03 PM

2) This is probably the case because modern computer or videogames owe more than a little to D&D and other analog wargames. These of course use dice, so dice are the immediate tool to hand.

There are some pen and paper RPGs that do interesting things with dice, though...Rolemaster, for instance, used d100, but had a system whereby you roll again and add if you score more than 95, and roll again and subtract if you get less than 6. (Think those were the ranges, anyway, long time since I played it). This means you can get both absurdly high and absurdly low rolls--I saw somebody once get a natural 340 or something like that!

Murska

2012-01-15, 06:07 PM

I think I might have been inspired to have another go at the X-Com Superhuman Hawaii Challenge. I've never finished that one yet.

Cespenar

2012-01-15, 06:17 PM

I suspect there are three basic reasons:

My hunch is that it's a combination of these two. It's easier to conceptualise what's going on when a bazooka is described as doing 10d6 damage rather than N(35, 5.4).

(Obviously you'd describe it as 35 +- something, but in that case why not make it 35 +- Nd6 or some such thing.)

This answers it quite well. You can perfectly well play with mean and variance with dice rolls only. I think the real reason is they don't care that much about technical stuff like that, even if it would eventually end up affecting the whole gameplay, in some ways.

Surrealistik

2012-01-15, 06:52 PM

Which difficulty you play on? Good luck with alien base and battleship missions on Superhuman. Blaster bombs start flying the second aliens notice you.

Superhuman. I have rarely seen them use blaster launchers, and I doubt whether difficulty impacts their frequency of use; the effect of difficulty settings has more to do with their raw stats, and how hard the council and countries are to keep satisfied in terms of score.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-15, 07:04 PM

Superhuman. I have rarely seen them use blaster launchers, and I doubt whether difficulty impacts their frequency of use; the effect of difficulty settings has more to do with their raw stats, and how hard the council and countries are to keep satisfied in terms of score.

There might be a few more, Commander, Leader, and Engineer aliens can spawn with blaster launchers, but they generally congregate inside in cramped quarters where you have a decent chance of ambushing them.

Blaster Launcher problems usually come from Mutons, because Mutons only have soldiers so there's a reasonable chance a guy with a Blaster Launcher will be wandering around outside where he has nice long lines of sight and can do horrible things to you.

Mewtarthio

2012-01-15, 11:54 PM

1) They're designed by game designers, not applied mathematicians and statisticians. Which means that tools like probably distributions are somewhat outside their usual toolbox.

They made me take ProbStat to get by BS in Computer Science. I'm not exactly a trained statistician, but I'm at least familiar with basic probability distributions, and I'd expect other programmers to be as well.

2) This is probably the case because modern computer or videogames owe more than a little to D&D and other analog wargames. These of course use dice, so dice are the immediate tool to hand.

Dice can be curvy. Yeah, one roll's going to be a flat distribution, but if you roll, say, 5d6 damage, the result's going to be skewed towards the expected (average) value.

To be honest, I think the real reason is that flat distributions are just easier to code. All you need is basic arithmetic and a random number generator. Besides, even if you do have the statistical knowledge to make a proper distribution, the average player's not going to notice the difference.

warty goblin

2012-01-16, 12:50 AM

They made me take ProbStat to get by BS in Computer Science. I'm not exactly a trained statistician, but I'm at least familiar with basic probability distributions, and I'd expect other programmers to be as well.

Game designer and programmer are different jobs anymore. Regardless manipulating densities is almost certainly not something that most game programmers do on a regular basis even if they have at some point studied them. I'm in a stat Ph.D. program now and there's plenty of math I studied and understood as an undergrad that I'd never use simply because I can't remember a single thing about them because they aren't things I need on a daily basis.

Dice can be curvy. Yeah, one roll's going to be a flat distribution, but if you roll, say, 5d6 damage, the result's going to be skewed towards the expected (average) value.
Technically 5d6 has a skew of zero. This center-seeking is a consequence of the central limit theorem, and since discrete uniform is symmetrical about its mean the convergence is fairly rapid. However Normal curves are a much more elegant and, with a bit of practice, much easier to work with. Instead of mucking about with addition you specify a single number and the spread from the mean is entirely determined.

To be honest, I think the real reason is that flat distributions are just easier to code. All you need is basic arithmetic and a random number generator. Besides, even if you do have the statistical knowledge to make a proper distribution, the average player's not going to notice the difference.
At a foundational level the only distribution a computer does is the continuous uniform, it just simulates all the others from that one.

And while the difference may not be something a player would see without mucking around in the game's code, that doesn't mean it wouldn't improve the game.

And I actually suspect that such a system could be, in a lot of ways, a bit more enjoyable to play, if only because normalized weapons would, I suspect, behave in a much more believable way.

factotum

2012-01-16, 02:35 AM

Instead of mucking about with addition you specify a single number and the spread from the mean is entirely determined.

How do you generate a random number that follows a normal distribution, though? That's a bit more complicated than just generating the distribution graph...I tried it myself a while back, and I found it quite tricky (although I'm not a statistician and have never pretended to be one).

Trazoi

2012-01-16, 02:41 AM

How do you generate a random number that follows a normal distribution, though? That's a bit more complicated than just generating the distribution graph...I tried it myself a while back, and I found it quite tricky (although I'm not a statistician and have never pretended to be one).
There are algorithms to do it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Generating_values_from_normal_ distribution) When I've needed it in maths work I've used a library. When I've needed it in a game design, I basically threw four dice and said "eh, that's a bell curve, works for me."

factotum

2012-01-16, 07:54 AM

There are algorithms to do it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution#Generating_values_from_normal_ distribution) When I've needed it in maths work I've used a library. When I've needed it in a game design, I basically threw four dice and said "eh, that's a bell curve, works for me."

Isn't that taking us back to using dice for the rolls? Although, admittedly, pretty much every major RPG system I can think of uses a single dice for skill and to-hit rolls (classing percentage dice as a single dice here, you understand), which obviously provides a strictly linear and flat probability curve.

Archonic Energy

2012-01-16, 08:02 AM

in related news.

it's MAy 1999 and i have two sectoid bases...
and no psi.

:smallannoyed:
not going well!
i give till july till my funding gets stopped...

even though i can be self sufficent noe with my laser manufacturing

Trazoi

2012-01-16, 07:52 PM

Isn't that taking us back to using dice for the rolls? Although, admittedly, pretty much every major RPG system I can think of uses a single dice for skill and to-hit rolls (classing percentage dice as a single dice here, you understand), which obviously provides a strictly linear and flat probability curve.
Yes but there's nothing wrong with that. The problem to solve wasn't that I needed a perfect normal distribution for my game values. It's something like "I want a random damage value between 0 and 200, but I'd like a rough bell curve around the average of 100 with occasional outliers". Why bother going to the effort of finding or implementing a computationally expensive normal distribution algorithm when my fast random number generator easily gives me 2d100 which fits the bill?

(And yeah, 2d101 - 2 would be how you actually get 0 to 200. You'd want your random number generator to give "dice rolls" of 0 to 100 inclusive.)

Edit: The first time I played XCOM, I didn't know you could get psi units. That game didn't go well.
I'm not that great at XCOM. I got it from Steam a couple of years ago and have yet to finish a game. I usually get bogged down several months in clearing out the large UFOs, shelve the game for a couple of months, and start again.

Gnoman

2012-01-16, 08:51 PM

Don't feel bad. I've yet to win a game, and I started playing TFTD ten years ago.

factotum

2012-01-17, 02:43 AM

Beat both the original game and TFTD back in the day, but I don't know if I can still do it...I used to be better at games 20 years ago!

Jonzac

2012-01-17, 09:25 AM

Does anyone know if the skill setting (recruit to superhuman) reset on the first save was fixed in the Steam version?

I'd like to know that I'm beating the Veteran game and not the Recruit one.

Muz

2012-01-17, 02:16 PM

Why gosh darn?

You actually WANT the FPS to be released early and ruins mainstream opinion on Xcom?

Better have the more secure game be released first. They will sell well, and the FPS will follow and crash and burn.

My "Gosh. Darn." was intended to be sarcastic. :smallsmile: I didn't realize the story I linked was old news, though. (Oops.)

I'm playing a game on Veteran at the moment. Lost my entire European squad in an attack on an alien base. We were doing well, having breached the lower level of the command center having only lost one soldier and a laser tank. Then suddenly: "Floater Leader has panicked." Good news, yes?

No.

Panicking involved popping off a blaster pod at the four soldiers who were at the door to the lower level. Dead. When the rest arrive, four more get taken out by another blaster bomb. The remaining soldier panics for a few turns, regains her wits, then slowly makes her way toward the command center and...gets hit with another blaster bomb. :smallfurious:

The (more experienced) squad from Colorado then had to go avenge them. Strangely enough, though only half a day had passed, the aliens had both fully repopulated their base and renovated (and repaired) the floor plan completely. :smallwink:

Brumski

2012-01-25, 03:35 PM

Read up on the new X-com game from Game Informer this month, sounded great, and it got some high praise from a buddy, so I got it on Steam. Very good game. The interface being clunky would be my main problem so far. I could name some specifics, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Reading thru the other things on this thread I understand why the Game Informer article spent half a paragraph stating that SOLDIERS WILL DIE!!

So the Time Units will go away, but as long as the new classes the soldiers will have actually have some interesting variations with what they can do with their actions and moves I think that part will be ok. Also, apparently you don't recruit specific classes, you find out what each rookie is after they gain a level.

Naming Soldiers: Once you have proven yourself, you get your last name removed. Reverse OoTS style, if you have your full name, you're cannon fodder.

Rockphed

2012-01-26, 03:37 PM

Agreed. Battle for Wesnoth, for one, really needs a normal distribution. Actually, I'd put normal distribution in a lot of games, if I had the chance.

At a foundational level the only distribution a computer does is the continuous uniform, it just simulates all the others from that one.

And while the difference may not be something a player would see without mucking around in the game's code, that doesn't mean it wouldn't improve the game.

And I actually suspect that such a system could be, in a lot of ways, a bit more enjoyable to play, if only because normalized weapons would, I suspect, behave in a much more believable way.

How do you generate a random number that follows a normal distribution, though? That's a bit more complicated than just generating the distribution graph...I tried it myself a while back, and I found it quite tricky (although I'm not a statistician and have never pretended to be one).

A normal distribution can be modeled with a lot of rolls for 0 or 1(there is a specific random variable that is that, but I cannot remember what it is called). The big problem is that such is not computationally simple. In fact, the quickest thing to compute is a uniform distribution. On the other hand, if you have a truly random number, each bit should be random, so you can just add up enough bits to cover your range.

On the other hand, still not computationally simple.

warty goblin

2012-01-26, 03:48 PM

A normal distribution can be modeled with a lot of rolls for 0 or 1(there is a specific random variable that is that, but I cannot remember what it is called). The big problem is that such is not computationally simple. In fact, the quickest thing to compute is a uniform distribution. On the other hand, if you have a truly random number, each bit should be random, so you can just add up enough bits to cover your range.

On the other hand, still not computationally simple.

The specific random variable you reference is the Binomial(n, p), which is n independent trials, each with p chance of success and (1 - p) of failure. Think coin flips.

The binomial does converge to a normal distribution with mean np and standard deviation as np(1-p) n -> infinity, and for p near .5 does so fairly quickly. The question that than arises is how to simulate the binomial?

Continuous uniform, obviously.

Grif

2012-01-28, 03:41 AM

So. I started up on Enemy Unknown again.

Now I'm early July, and doing pretty well... except for the fact I lack Psi. Is this bad? I notice Ethereals starting to appear on Alien Base missions. Won't be long before they built one and start building a base.

iyaerP

2012-01-28, 03:52 AM

Grif

2012-01-28, 03:56 AM

Next time you see a "medium" ship, don't shoot it down, just follow with skyranger. Land on the site where the ship does and raid it for the navigator. He should be at the command deck, near one of the consoles. I advise small launchers or stunrods for everyone on the bridge.

He is your key to alien psy if I remember correctly.

Just did that for a Terror ship. Apparently the Sectoid leader unlocks it.

Medium ships (Harvester I think) are a horror. Their maze like interior DO NOT lend well to keeping your agents alive. :smallmad:

tyckspoon

2012-01-28, 06:23 AM

Next time you see a "medium" ship, don't shoot it down, just follow with skyranger. Land on the site where the ship does and raid it for the navigator. He should be at the command deck, near one of the consoles. I advise small launchers or stunrods for everyone on the bridge.

He is your key to alien psy if I remember correctly.

Sectoid Leaders or any Ethereal. Navigators get you information about Mars and, IIRC, open up the Hyperwave Decoder 'radar', so it's worth nabbing one along the way anyway.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-28, 08:12 AM

Sectoid Leaders or any Ethereal. Navigators get you information about Mars and, IIRC, open up the Hyperwave Decoder 'radar', so it's worth nabbing one along the way anyway.

Hyperwave Decoders are hugely helpful. Very much worth the risks of a non-lethal takedown.

Grif

2012-01-28, 08:18 AM

My entire team was killed by Psi. What the hell...

Time to save scum and arm them with only Laser pistols.

Asheram

2012-01-28, 11:56 AM

My entire team was killed by Psi. What the hell...

Time to save scum and arm them with only Laser pistols.

I've seen things.

A live stream of a friend performing Cydonia on superhuman conciously not using psi labs to boost psi resistance.

On round four, half the squad was either paniced or mindcontrolled, and the other half had been shot dead by the first half.

Trazoi

2012-01-28, 07:32 PM

tyckspoon

2012-01-28, 07:55 PM

Quick X-COM Enemy Unknown/UFO Defense question: if you're playing normally are you meant to take a few Alien Inflitration missions on the chin? I'm a few months in and like usual the aliens are gearing up to persuade some country to betray humanity and I don't think I've built up the capacity to stop them. Shooting down the littler ships and storming the larger when they land doesn't seem to stop their enthusiasm, not when there's three or four UFOs buzzing around at once.

Yeah, that's pretty normal. Until you have a Hyperwave Decoder and a couple of secondary bases for doing interceptor launches you just don't have the coverage or capacity to prevent activity on most of the planet, and part of the strategy/consideration of placing your starter base is actually deciding which countries you're willing to give up because you won't be able to stop the aliens from subverting them.

Trazoi

2012-01-28, 08:16 PM

That's good to know. My last game was abandoned because the aliens managed to subvert the USA while I had a base in USA and I felt too embarrassed at my ineptitude to continue. I'm hoping to finally play a game past the six month mark without feeling overwhelmed.

I was worried because with this attempt I'm managing my finances and research a little better and my Hyperwave Decoder network is starting to come online so I can see exactly what the aliens are up to this time. They're all swarming around the Middle East so I assume they're making a play for India. I hope it's not China because I've got a not-quite operational base there.

chiasaur11

2012-01-28, 08:54 PM

Yeah.

Eventually, even if you're as close to perfect as a human can be, every country but Russia will fall to the invaders. You won't notice if you work fast, but it happens if the game runs forever.

X-Com and Ivan just get along well.

tensai_oni

2012-01-28, 09:03 PM

Infilitration missions are very hard to avoid and mostly random. If the battleship appears, you have lost a country already. It does not matter even if you intercept or assault it. Of course points for doing that are always good.

But all you lose from infilitration is some funding, and aliens get a new base. So you should grit your teeth, detect the base and continue playing. The game won't end even if all countries are subverted, as long as you have enough money and points.

Raddish

2012-01-28, 10:16 PM

I have been playing the original again and am right now taking over an alien base. Sadly the commander of it blew himself up on a grenade. I don't know if they hold multiple of them but I was hoping for a fast track to the final mission from it. I guess I have to try the next base instead...

Jonzac

2012-01-31, 09:10 AM

Last time I "won" a game I used the exploit of "my scientists are in transit from one base to another at the end of the month so I don't have to pay their salaries" bug. That way I could have 200 or so scientists cranking out research for zero costs as long as I remembered that Feb was leap year in 1999.

GloatingSwine

2012-01-31, 01:53 PM

Murska

2012-01-31, 06:45 PM

My Superhuman Ironman Hawaii Challenge is going pretty well. I might jinx it by saying this, of course, but so far I'm pretty much self-sufficient by engineering weapons to sell on the black market, have researched blaster launchers, stun launchers and plasma weaponry to use and am now trying to secure myself some psionics. I usually lose almost an entire squad every mission, but soldiers are cheap and their equipment is cheap as well, so it's no big deal.

I've been thinking that it isn't really a violation of my Challenge terms to build a second base on Hawaii for extra room to manufacture more guns and house the massive pool of recruits I intend to sift through to find super psi-resistant people...

EDIT:

Oh, and a more humane way to finance an anti-alien operation via illegal weapons trade - sell fusion ball launchers, but don't sell ammunition. (The ammo costs Elerium, which my Hawaiian base lacks because all the damn UFOs crash into the sea.)

ninja_penguin

2012-02-01, 11:45 AM

So. I started up on Enemy Unknown again.

Now I'm early July, and doing pretty well... except for the fact I lack Psi. Is this bad?

It's not ideal, but it's entirely possible and not a huge worry if you weren't able to bad a sectoid leader/commander early on. The easiest way to get psi is to bag an ethereal grunt somewhere. I carefully shot down a small UFO with ethereals in it, and then just lobbed stun bombs all over the place once one was ID'd.

Hyperwave Decoders are hugely helpful. Very much worth the risks of a non-lethal takedown.

Oh so much this. Bag a mind prove, find an engineer, and IN-TER-O-GAAAATE. Hyperwave decoders, once online, will cause you to panic because they have a 100% detection rating of all UFOs, and suddenly you're going to realize just how far the invasion has gone.

I also highly suggest outfitting your interceptors with plasma beams around the same time, those pilots are going to be pulling overtime and double hazard pay; with plasma beams the interceptor outranges every single ship except for the battleship. Battleships are a beast to take down, an Avenger can do it, but then it hanger queens up the shop while they have to rebuild the front third-to-half of it.

Quick X-COM Enemy Unknown/UFO Defense question: if you're playing normally are you meant to take a few Alien Inflitration missions on the chin? I'm a few months in and like usual the aliens are gearing up to persuade some country to betray humanity and I don't think I've built up the capacity to stop them.

Yes, they try to infiltrate everywhere. I actually put my first base in Europe in order to cover a larger number of sponsoring nations instead of the USA. I build my secondary base over there most of the time, and it sort of serves as my fallback/psiops base.

I didn't learn until later that you can actually use soldiers who are in psychic training.

Why bother when you can build laser cannons for infinity money?

Wisdom. Get some workshops, and arm the entire world with laser cannons. You'll make a huge profit, and you're not using any alien materials. I funded myself entirely through laser cannon production. I was even able to make mind shielded dinky bases for complete planetary hyperwave decoder/plasma beam interceptor coverage.

Of course, eventually you'll end up with BATTLESHIPS, BATTLESHIPS EVERYWHERE, and you'll want to rush Cydonia at that point. I think I won the game on christmas the first time I did.

Raddish

2012-02-01, 02:19 PM

Almost all the way through september and I have seen no Ethereals. I have been able to go to cydonia since like early august...

That might have been before I saw Mutons too but I cant quite remember.

Murska

2012-02-01, 03:25 PM

Heh. I found two Ethereal bases at the same time, a few minor nations have ceased funding me due to infiltration. One of the bases cost me a squad/skyranger wipe, but it's not like my play style puts much worth in soldiers - Until I know psi strengths, everybody is expendable. Recruits are cheap, funded by my illegal weapons manufactory on Hawaii. Regardless of my squad wipe I actually won the base mission with high points, since I blasterbombed the command center (twice) and got the Base Control.

The second base was taken out much easier, by a full rookie squad outfitted with a bunch of Blaster Launchers and a Plasma Antigrav Tank. It probably would've been hard, but one of the Ethereals managed to Blasterbomb himself and a whole bunch of his buddies near the CC, conveniently creating a blasterbomb-sized hole in the door as well for me to utilize for the mop-up.

The main problem is that, being on Hawaii, I kind of lack Elerium. And by 'kind of' I mean 'my Firestorms cannot actually refuel anymore, so I have to try and catch Supply Ships on the ground with my Skyranger' - Interceptors can't catch the UFOs since they just zoom past Hawaii max speed on their way to either Russia or the US.

This means that my remaining stocks of Blaster Bombs, Power Armour, Flying Suits and such are very precious - I'm very much willing to lose eight soldiers to throw a bunch of blaster bombs back onto the Skyranger to escape a mission with.

I'm stuck with roughly 32 million, and nothing to use it on - my base is full, and I will have to remove facilities to add psi ops once I finally nab a live Ethereal (really bad luck with those so far).

Jonzac

2012-02-01, 05:26 PM

Start a second base. Use that base to house your interceptor and future psi lab when needed. keep Hawaii as your research and manufacturing hub and move soldiers and interceptors to the second base.

Raddish

2012-02-01, 06:29 PM

I got a psi lab up and running ages ago from a raid on a landed battleship in the UK. 14 men went in, 4 died, 6 were stunned 4 were generally panicing or mindcontrolled so they didn't have a weapon. My last 2 people were clearing hte UFO and one of them ran out of ammo trying to kill te last alien so it was a single xcom trooper chasing a sectoid through the upper floor of a battleship. It was tense...

Right now I am trying to get psi screening done, once I know who is usable I am going to Cydonia. I tried it right as I got the skill, half the team were killed on the entry and the other half either had no weapon or little ammo and were butchered by the ethereals on the inside.

Murska

2012-02-02, 08:05 AM

Start a second base. Use that base to house your interceptor and future psi lab when needed. keep Hawaii as your research and manufacturing hub and move soldiers and interceptors to the second base.

But that's against the rules of my self-imposed challenge.

One base, on Hawaii. No reloading. Superman difficulty.

I've also moved to using tiered equipment in that only proven soldiers get any of the good stuff, but that's due to the necessity of saving Elerium.

I've been thinking that building a second base on Hawaii wouldn't really be a cheat, but I dunno.

Oh, who else usually names their base Alien Base-0? I find it amusing every time.

Raddish

2012-02-02, 08:44 AM

I named my last base something like "Nothing here honest"

Asheram

2012-02-02, 12:22 PM

I named my last base something like "Nothing here honest"

One really should start naming bases "Decoy"

tensai_oni

2012-02-02, 12:38 PM

Oh so much this. Bag a mind prove, find an engineer, and IN-TER-O-GAAAATE.

Navigator.

You don't even need mind probes, just grab stun rods and stun everything in the navigation room of a Large Scout. Well, everything you can approach from behind.

Coidzor

2012-02-02, 03:46 PM

Just did that for a Terror ship. Apparently the Sectoid leader unlocks it.

Medium ships (Harvester I think) are a horror. Their maze like interior DO NOT lend well to keeping your agents alive. :smallmad:

Isn't that why you demolish the walls for multiple points of entry by always having at least one trooper with laser weaponry and slowly work your way through it by imitating nanites?

chiasaur11

2012-02-02, 05:14 PM

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-02-02, 05:24 PM

Isn't that why you demolish the walls for multiple points of entry by always having at least one trooper with laser weaponry and slowly work your way through it by imitating nanites?

Surely you mean plasma, my good chap. But yes, once you have plasma weapons researched you basically just do your best Kool-Aid man impression on every single bulkhead. Heavy is best for this, but you need a pretty strong trooper to carry them around in a timely manner.

Murska

2012-02-02, 05:29 PM

I give my troops a split of Laser Rifles and Heavy Plasma. They get strong enough pretty quickly if they just carry it for a few missions - it's not like it's a real Heavy Weapon like the Blaster Launcher.

Laser Rifles in the late-game are generally just for Sectopods, and to be used for clearing annoying piles of scenery in a terror mission. I could as well use Heavy Plasma - I gain like 20 clips every mission as the aliens seem to use it almost exclusively - but waste not, want not.

Raddish

2012-02-02, 07:38 PM

Heavy plasmas are brutal to both aliena nd xcom alike. There is not much that can stand them. On the one hand it makes a lot of previously difficult fights much easier, on the other a single mind controlled heavy plasma guy can seriously hurt your morale if he gets to shootin.

Also I expect strength would increase at the same speed whether they are being weighed down or not so I o my best to give people weapons they can definitely handle.

Gnoman

2012-02-02, 08:03 PM

Murska

2012-02-02, 09:34 PM

I'm not sure but I think stats increase when used - ergo, while encumbered, Strength grows. Dunno, though. I never had any problems with having my people weighed down by Heavy Plasma, anyway - each can shoot three autoshots a turn or two and move. I mainly use them for the convenience - I've got a hundred in stock just from what the aliens drop, more clips than I could ever hope to burn through, they're pretty good at killing stuff.

As for grenades, I've got 1-2 Alien Grenades per soldier, but generally for Desperate Situations I use the Blaster Launcher and for levelling scenery I can spare the time for Laser Rifle spray. It's a rare mission where I use many grenades. Pre-Blaster Launcher they're used for having a rookie run into an alien Command Center with a primed High Explosive or Alien Grenade in hand.

Every time one of my squadmates is mindcontrolled, I kill him/her. This means over time I'll end up with high resistance people, at least hopefully.

tensai_oni

2012-02-02, 10:00 PM

Strength is a supplementary stat like time units or stamina. It increases as main stats (shooting accuracy, throwing, etc) do.

Carrying heavy plasma was never a problem for me. Even new troopers could have one, a spare clip, medikit and grenade or two. No problem.

Grif

2012-02-02, 10:13 PM

I actually prefer Plasma rifles. They serve well enough for most aliens, but are light enough to make carrying grenades practical. Only problems is that ammo becomes quite scarce later in the game.

Also, if you use Xcomutil or the Two Sides fanmake, the High Explosives can punch through UFO hulls.

I'm actually trying out XComUtil now. Pretty fun so far.

Hm, but for my vanilla game, I still give my troopers a mix of Plasma Rifles and Laser Rifles. They seem to do alright even late in the game, but then again, I'm playing on Beginner.

chiasaur11

2012-02-02, 11:55 PM

Time to clear up a misconception. Heavy plasma? Not that heavy. 8 weight units, same as a regular rifle.

They have about 1 shot in ten of breaking interior walls. Blaster bombs have one shot in one.

And yeah, carrying heavy stuff doesn't build strength. Not freaking out under pressure does. Go figure.

Raddish

2012-02-03, 12:09 AM

The heavy plasma is more refereing to it being a stronger version of a plasma rifle rather than it actually being physicallt heavier I guess.

Grif

2012-02-03, 12:12 AM

The heavy plasma is more refereing to it being a stronger version of a plasma rifle rather than it actually being physicallt heavier I guess.

Yeah.

I use Plasma Rifles mainly due to their superior Snap Shot accuracy. Seriously, snipers would love the stuff.

Also, Laser Rifles are just great for random autoshots.

Murska

2012-02-03, 05:21 PM

I always use autoshots unless I simply don't have the TUs required. So Heavy Plasma is great.

Anyway, managed to temporarily fix my elerium problems by farming two alien bases in close proximity to each other in India and Central Asia. Ethereal Supply Ships also gave me the Martian Solution and Psi Labs - got two leaders and a bunch of soldiers just by cattleprodding them. Surprisingly lucky there. Of course I still lose a bunch of squaddies every mission but it's no big deal, since now I have everything I need to rebuild and re-arm my strikeforces.

Money supply has grown to 85million, still nothing to use it on.

Cespenar

2012-02-03, 10:07 PM

Every time one of my squadmates is mindcontrolled, I kill him/her. This means over time I'll end up with high resistance people, at least hopefully.

Heh. Psychic Darwinism? :smalltongue:

chiasaur11

2012-02-04, 01:28 AM

Heh. Psychic Darwinism? :smalltongue:

Bester would be proud.

Murska

2012-02-04, 08:52 AM

Maddeningly, I've lost more Flying Suits and Power Suits to lasershots in the back than to plasma bolts in the front. Quite a bit more, too. I'm hoping for my psychic Darwinism to start producing results soon. :smalltongue:

Grif

2012-02-05, 08:29 AM

Heh. I can see why they called Psi overpowered. I just got 2 soldiers with 80+ Psi Strength to 50 Psi Skill. Now they're controlling even Ethereals left and right. :smallbiggrin:

Things just got a whole lot easier.

The Dark Fiddler

2012-02-06, 04:24 PM

Having just purchased the original X-Com, I have a rather embarrassing question... how does one tell their soldiers to fire without having to wait for their reaction fire on the alien turn? That is possible, right? :smallredface:

ninja_penguin

2012-02-06, 04:30 PM

Click on the weapon. Click on aimed/snap/auto shot. click the target. The target doesn't have to be a person, it can be an object, or even just a space.

Then OUT OF TIME UNITS

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-02-06, 06:28 PM

It's not embarrassing, the UI on that game is horrible, and there's no really helpful tutorial online or anywhere to help.

Trazoi

2012-02-06, 06:47 PM

Izual6764

2012-02-06, 06:58 PM

So... I got lucky and shot down and successfully recovered 2 UFOs in my first month. As it turns out, I managed to piss off the aliens really hard because I'm in a base defense mission right now. Everything was going quite well then suddenly what I think was a blaster bomb rounded the corner and killed 3 soldiers, which caused another one to panic. But the situation looks like it can still be salvaged. I love this game.

Also, I just got acquainted with a cyberdisc. It got the Terran welcome of laser fire, and apparently decided it doesn't like us because it violently exploded soon afterwards, killing another trooper.

chiasaur11

2012-02-06, 06:58 PM

Speaking of UI issues, I only just found out you can minimise the interception combat windows to allow your interceptors to track UFOs without engaging in combat.

I then found out you should never do this, because it corrupts your saves. :smallfrown:

What? I do it all the time with no problems. Lets you target a UFO with multiple fighters.

Oh, and there's a game manual on the Steam store for download. Worth looking at, as it explains how to do everything you'll need in the early game.

Gnoman

2012-02-06, 07:16 PM

There's a bug related to saving with a minimized interception window.

Izual6764

2012-02-06, 07:26 PM

The Dark Fiddler

2012-02-06, 07:27 PM

It's not embarrassing, the UI on that game is horrible, and there's no really helpful tutorial online or anywhere to help.

Well, I certainly feel less stupid now to know it's only partially my fault.

Of course, X-Com comes with death. Learned that the hard way... first terror mission was going swimmingly until the Floaters (I think?) started chucking grenades... Only survivors were due to my abandoning the mission.

Trazoi

2012-02-06, 07:28 PM

In my case I was tracking multiple large UFOs that outclassed my piddly Interceptors because I was waiting to see where they landed and direct my Skyrangers accordingly. Then I saved within the mission to quit for the day. Lucky I save in a bunch of different slots, but that UFO was huge and I did really well clearing it out and capturing command. :smallfrown:

Izual6764

2012-02-06, 07:40 PM

tyckspoon

2012-02-06, 07:44 PM

Hooray! I saved my base! I just lost all but one soldier(and a hangar, Skyranger, laboratory and a workshop)! And I am completely out of money. Hmmm, are base defense missions in the first month or so normal?

Not usually, but it can happen if you're either really unlucky with the aliens or if you manage to give away your base location by getting a lot of detections/interceptions very close to your base.

chiasaur11

2012-02-06, 08:19 PM

So, left unable to even investigate crashed UFOs I wanted to just wait until the end of the month, when hopefully money would come in.
Guess what? Right on the 31st of January, the aliens decided to visit again :smallfurious:! This time I didn't even bother with a last stand and aborted.

Yeah, that's exceptionally bad luck. Happens, but it's unlikely on not-superhuman.

Upside is a chance to nab a leader, a commander, and some blaster bombs in January

Coidzor

2012-02-06, 10:36 PM

It's not embarrassing, the UI on that game is horrible, and there's no really helpful tutorial online or anywhere to help.

Huh. You'd think one of us would have done up something by now. :smallconfused:

I mean, there's been blokes who have taken to teaching Dorf Fortress.

ninja_penguin

2012-02-07, 05:40 AM

Huh. You'd think one of us would have done up something by now. :smallconfused:

I mean, there's been blokes who have taken to teaching Dorf Fortress.

Isn't there a manual you can read? I know that's what I read, way back when I played it on floppy discs.

Grif

2012-02-07, 10:14 AM

Well, I certainly feel less stupid now to know it's only partially my fault.

Of course, X-Com comes with death. Learned that the hard way... first terror mission was going swimmingly until the Floaters (I think?) started chucking grenades... Only survivors were due to my abandoning the mission.

Pfft. At least you didn't have to suffer the indignity of having (almost) the entire team + HWP blown up in the second turn due to two grenades. Last two rookie naturally panicked.

It also happened I didn't save... for two weeks. /facedesk