Bo9S - Which Initiator is the most Fun?

[NeoSeraphi]

So I've heard all the arguments for ToB. It makes melee interesting. You can do more things than just charge and pounce. Your damage stays relevant without you having to be a pansy-ass rogue. All good things. My question is: Which should I play first?

I'm finally getting a chance to play ToB in a game. Crusader seems strong, if not convoluted (especially for the PbP, since I have to roll an extra dice every round to randomly grant myself a maneuver), warblade seems strong, but his main school (Iron Heart Surge) seems pretty passive to me, and White Raven is no good because it's a two-player game, so I only have one ally to work with.

Then there's swordsage. Most maneuvers, most disciplines, worst chassis. You get Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, both of which seem cool, but you're squishier and you don't hit as often.

So my question isn't which initiator is the best. Which is the most fun to play? Which maneuver combinations make for the most flavor and power? Which character will be able to do all the cool stuff in combat, and not be reduced to saying "I hit with Greater Insightful Strike. I do nothing but a single melee attack. I hit with Greater Insightful Strike."

I want variety, like with a spellcaster, but I also want my variety to not suck. What does everyone think? Please, share your experiences with me Playground!

[Metahuman1]

I like Warblade.

Diamond Mind is a dip for Emerald Razor Strike and a couple of counters (the one's that let you replace saves with Concentration checks. )

Then Nab Wall of Blades counter from Iron Heart.


Then Focus on one of your three remaining Schools. I like all three of them myself, but you sound like you'd enjoy Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon more. (Hint: Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still is amazing on a TwF build.



Of course there's something awesome about a Swordsage unarmed Variant using shadow Hand and Setting Sun with touches of Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and Iron heart were there gonna be especially neat.

[FMArthur]

I've had the most success with Tiger Claw-focused warblade dips. Sudden Leap in particular is awesome for jumping in and shredding your enemies. The mobility provided by Tiger Claw and White Raven maneuvers is just an awesome asset to have on any melee character - in fact I can't remember the last time I used a mundane melee class without supplementing it with at least a dip in Warblade. The full BAB and the recovery method allowing perfect mobility is what makes it the best option for those.

As for ones to take all on their own, I support Swordsage. They offer the best variety in maneuver selection, both at character creation (disciplines) and in action (maneuvers readied). Setting Sun in particular is just the most amazing fun to use IMO, but Shadow Hand offers pretty unique effects as well and provides great noncombat utility.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade: Iron Heart + Tiger Claw + Diamond Mind + Mountain Hammer and maybe some other Stone Dragon strikes. Try to know and ready the same number of boosts, strikes, and counters. You have something every round, except for recharging. Great jumping capabilities with Leaping Dragon Stance, and Sudden Leap allows jump and full attack, double jump and attack, or triple jump.

Crusader: You can use maneuvers every round, guaranteed.

Swordsage: Lots of variety, terrible recharge, less effective use of strikes. It can be great fun to teleport on top of a dragon or giant while holding a light weapon or just using unarmed strikes, but the warblade can jump on top of them as well. The one big advantage it has is Setting Sun, that thing is great.

So it's probably subjective. What's your friend playing?

[Circle of Life]

Sounds like you want the Crusader then. You always have maneuvers available to you, and it doesn't take any actions to get them. You have access to a bunch of cool toys from Devoted Spirit, not least of which is (lovingly referred to as) Heal-strike.

I'm not a big fan of the Warblade for the reasons you mentioned, the whole "initiate best maneuver, recover, initiate again". Swordsages are fun, and the medium-BAB isn't really as much of an issue as it might seem at first glance. Plus you get to use Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, which has been known to kill just by having your foe attempt to repeat it back to you.

Overall I prefer the Crusader, but the Swordsage is a pretty close second.

[NeoSeraphi]

True, I hadn't thought about the auto-recover mechanic of a crusader. And since it's random, I don't just grab my best maneuver back automatically either, so there's always something (relatively) fresh...

Okay, crusader it is then. Though I might try to get into Master of 9 for the hell of it. Shadow Hand looks like it would be fun to play.

[Slipperychicken]

Okay, crusader it is then. Though I might try to get into Master of 9 for the hell of it. Shadow Hand looks like it would be fun to play.

Arcane Swordsage. Full BAB, d8, 9th level spells, stances.

[NeoSeraphi]

Arcane Swordsage. Full BAB, d8, 9th level spells, stances.

Not gonna use it. If I wanted to play a spellcaster, I'd play a spellcaster.

[Siosilvar]

Arcane Swordsage. Full BAB, d8, 9th level spells, stances.

Very poorly worded, not even a complete class (or even more than a suggestion), completely and utterly overpowered.

There are a few homebrew Arcane Swordsage classes that are okay, though.

[Kenneth]

A warlbode does more than
"I hit with Greater Insightful Strike. I do nothing but a single melee attack. I hit with Greater Insightful Strike."


You have more than just 1 martial maneuver at your disposal.


here is a off the top of my head 1-20 strike and counter set up
1 - Moment of Perfect Mind, Douse the Flames, Stone Bones
2 - Wolf Fang Strike
3 - Wall of Blades
4 - Wolf Fang Strike => Mountain Hammer
5 - White Raven Tactics
6 - Douse the Flames => Iron Heart Surge
7 - Death from Above
8 - Stone Bones => Emerald Razor
9 - Pouncing Charge
10 - Moment of Perfect Mind => Iron Heart Focus
11 - Crushing Vice
12 - Mountain Hammer => Moment of Alacrity
13 - Avalanche of Blades
14 - Emerald Razor => Quicksilver Motion
15 - Raging Mongoose
16 - Death from Above => Irresistible Mountain Strike
17 - Time Stands Still
18 - Moment of Alacrity => Mountain Tombstone Strike
19 - Adamantine Bones
20 - Irresistible Mountain Strike => Iron Heart Endurance


pretty nice.

[deuxhero]

Go Raptoran Crusader if the DM lets you use the fighter/cleric sub level 1 (it really should be a universal level) for it (Drop heavy armor, fly in medium). The random maneuvers will be fun then :p.

[NeoSeraphi]

Go Raptoran Crusader if the DM lets you use the fighter/cleric sub level 1 (it really should be a universal level) for it (Drop heavy armor, fly in medium). The random maneuvers will be fun then :p.

Our game is actually going to be fairly dungeon-crawly. I don't think we'll have much room for flight (or need).

Looking over it, I guess Shadow Hand and Setting Sun aren't that fun. Yeah, they're good, but it's a bunch of ability damage, counters (which aren't good for PbP since immediate actions often mean you have to go back a post) and teleportation, which is good, but healing will probably be better.

[AmberVael]

Looking over it, I guess Shadow Hand and Setting Sun aren't that fun. Yeah, they're good, but it's a bunch of ability damage, counters (which aren't good for PbP since immediate actions often mean you have to go back a post) and teleportation, which is good, but healing will probably be better.

In my opinion, Shadow Hand is pretty much the most versatile and interesting of all the disciplines, hands down. Not necessarily the strongest, mind, but it has all kinds of effects packed into a single discipline, a number of which you can't get anywhere else.

Shadow Hand can:
1) Make you teleport, with any kind of action
2) Make you invisible
3) Make you incorporeal
4) Make you fly
5) Give you a climb speed
6) Give you sneak attack
7) Give you concealment
8) Deal ability damage of multiple kinds
9) Deal negative levels
10) Inflict miss chances on enemies
11) Paralyze

...and more.

It is highly capable for offensive and defensive and has significant out of combat utility, which is rare for a discipline.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In my opinion, Shadow Hand is pretty much the most versatile and interesting of all the disciplines, hands down. Not necessarily the strongest, mind, but it has all kinds of effects packed into a single discipline, a number of which you can't get anywhere else.

Shadow Hand can:
1) Make you teleport, with any kind of action
2) Make you invisible
3) Make you incorporeal
4) Make you fly
5) Give you a climb speed
6) Give you sneak attack
7) Give you concealment
8) Deal ability damage of multiple kinds
9) Deal negative levels
10) Inflict miss chances on enemies
11) Paralyze

...and more.

It is highly capable for offensive and defensive and has significant out of combat utility, which is rare for a discipline.

It is moderately capable for offensive.

Also, versatility doesn't matter since you have enough disciplines for everything.

[NeoSeraphi]

In my opinion, Shadow Hand is pretty much the most versatile and interesting of all the disciplines, hands down. Not necessarily the strongest, mind, but it has all kinds of effects packed into a single discipline, a number of which you can't get anywhere else.

Shadow Hand can:
1) Make you teleport, with any kind of action
2) Make you invisible
3) Make you incorporeal
4) Make you fly
5) Give you a climb speed
6) Give you sneak attack
7) Give you concealment
8) Deal ability damage of multiple kinds
9) Deal negative levels
10) Inflict miss chances on enemies
11) Paralyze

...and more.

It is highly capable for offensive and defensive and has significant out of combat utility, which is rare for a discipline.

Definitely a sound point, unfortunately, I am playing a two player game with a friend who will be playing some kind of divine monk. If I turn invisible, conceal myself, or try to set myself up for Sneak Attack, the monsters will probably just turn on him, and that wouldn't work out too well.

I think crusader will be better for this game, seeing as I have to be the frontline. I will definitely play a swordsage in the future, though.

[AmberVael]

It is moderately capable for offensive.

Also, versatility doesn't matter since you have enough disciplines for everything.

I may be overstating its offensive capabilities a bit, but I don't necessarily mean just 'damage,' so it has plenty of chance to contribute.

On the other hand, you really can't dismiss its versatility that way, as the vast majority of the capabilities I listed can't be replicated by another discipline, particularly the out of combat stuff.


Definitely a sound point, unfortunately, I am playing a two player game with a friend who will be playing some kind of divine monk. If I turn invisible, conceal myself, or try to set myself up for Sneak Attack, the monsters will probably just turn on him, and that wouldn't work out too well.

I think crusader will be better for this game, seeing as I have to be the frontline. I will definitely play a swordsage in the future, though.

Fair enough. Crusader is definitely a better tank.

[NeoSeraphi]

So what's the best build for a Crusader? I don't want to play a caster, so no RKV, but are any of the other prestige classes particularly good? I've heard Deepstone Sentinel is a strong class for a dwarven initiator, and Eternal Blade is also good (though it's kind of a wall of text, so I skimmed it)

[Hiro Protagonest]

On the other hand, you really can't dismiss its versatility that way, as the vast majority of the capabilities I listed can't be replicated by another discipline, particularly the out of combat stuff.

The in-combat abilities allow a save and key off a tertiary stat. Unless you're facing lots of guys with weak fortitude save and no spells to make up for that (like rogues and... something. Spellthief?), they're not worth that much. The out-of-combat abilities are only about half the discipline. And that flight you mentioned? Not until 15th level, and I'd rather buy Wings of Flying and get Stance of Alacrity.

[RedWarrior0]

From what I can tell, Deepstone Sentinel is the Dwarven Defender made right. Of course, the mobility issues with it (and Stone Dragon in general) may be a problem.

One I'm aware of is essentially a lockdown crusader, getting off zillions of AoOs with the Thicket of Blades stance, a Spiked Chain, and improved Trip.

[Siosilvar]

So what's the best build for a Crusader?
-snip-

Well, it's pretty hard to screw up just Crusader 20, so long as you don't pick redundant maneuvers and remember to trade out your lower-level ones.

[TravelLog]

So what's the best build for a Crusader? I don't want to play a caster, so no RKV, but are any of the other prestige classes particularly good? I've heard Deepstone Sentinel is a strong class for a dwarven initiator, and Eternal Blade is also good (though it's kind of a wall of text, so I skimmed it)

Eternal Blade is much more Warblade than Crusader IMO. Elf is not the best race for a "tank" type character like a Crusader.

In any case, I refer you to this: Tome of Battle Build Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II)

[sonofzeal]

I found Swordsages the most fun, as they get by far the most maneuvers and the most variety.

Warblades are good Fighter-replacements, but the pitiful number of maneuvers readied seriously hurts. If you take a boost and a couple counters, that leaves you with only a single strike for most of your career, meaning you're still mostly dependent in Fighter-type full attack routines.

Crusaders can definitely keep rolling in the Strikes, but they're perhaps the most narrowly-focused of the ToB classes; they've got one signature school they'd be fools not to pull out of heavily, and while they individually have a nice mix of offence/support/control, I find Crusaders are probably the most homogenous of the three. There's certainly some variety, but not as much as for the other two.

Swordsages are simply the most ToB-ish of the three, and hence my personal favorite.

[Vortling]

While I personally find the swordsage the most enjoyable of the 3 initiators, I have to agree that the Crusader will be the best for your situation. You may want to look into a warforged crusader. The cha penalty hurts a little but the con boost plus all the immunities make for an even tankier tank.

[Crasical]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

[Curious]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

. . .
My next character, guaranteed.

[Circle of Life]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

That is amazing. I thought I'd heard all the silly ToB combinations, but you've just topped the list. Bravo.

[Crasical]

. . .
My next character, guaranteed.

Heh. I know it's theoretically possible but I don't understand the Tome of Battle classes -at all- so I don't know when you would be able to pull this off. There's a feat in the Complete Mage called Melodic Casting that lets you do this for the purpose of concentrating on casting a spell, so maybe you can get your DM to allow you to use it for Maneuvers.

[TravelLog]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

...:smalleek:

Awesome.

[Curious]

Heh. I know it's theoretically possible but I don't understand the Tome of Battle classes -at all- so I don't know when you would be able to pull this off. There's a feat in the Complete Mage called Melodic Casting that lets you do this for the purpose of concentrating on casting a spell, so maybe you can get your DM to allow you to use it for Maneuvers.

Just had a thought. You can toss in Wall of Blades as well so you can cut ray spells and arrows too.

[Crasical]

Just had a thought. You can toss in Wall of Blades as well so you can cut ray spells and arrows too.

Locks you into Warblade though.

Actually, can someone find out what the lowest level you can pick up all three of those Concentrate replacing maneuvers is, assuming the DM allows you to take and use Melodic Casting?

EDIT:
Hmm. The way I'd personally start this character off is Hexblade 3, ??? 1, Warblade 1. Doing it that way your Initiator level is high enough for you to grab the three Save Replacers as your first three known maneuvers, and you have Mettle.

[Duskranger]

Well, I actually love the SwordSage, I just play them with High dex, lower strength and get Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style and Shadowblade. With a 32 PB you could go:

str: 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha 8

Add a whisper gnome (30' movement) or be a halfling for another +2 dex. And yu have +4 to hit, +5 to damage with one handed weapons, and you can replace all maneuvers in a full round (Adaptive Style needs some love).

If you do something like that with step of the wind stance (No movement penalties and always charging). You have a solid build.

The Crusader though is also very much fun. I love his healing stances and the fact that it can stand up to much more damage than most characters. Extra Granted Maneuver is a necessary feat though, and Improved Initiative gives it a bit extra.
For fun I would make this a Dwarf, using a Dwarven Waraxe and a shield. If they hit you you can hit them back harder, using Stone Dragon or Devoted Spirit, martial Spirit stance once in combat, out of combat Bolstering voice (on low levels). Always get the healing maneuvers from Devoted Spirit and try to be able to get the Mountain Hammer line.

[Coidzor]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

...

...

That's exactly the kind of badassery I'd always wanted out of a sword-wielding D&D character. T_T

[Snowbluff]

In my opinion, Shadow Hand is pretty much the most versatile and interesting of all the disciplines, hands down. Not necessarily the strongest, mind, but it has all kinds of effects packed into a single discipline, a number of which you can't get anywhere else.

Shadow Hand can:
1) Make you teleport, with any kind of action
2) Make you invisible
3) Make you incorporeal
4) Make you fly
5) Give you a climb speed
6) Give you sneak attack
7) Give you concealment
8) Deal ability damage of multiple kinds
9) Deal negative levels
10) Inflict miss chances on enemies
11) Paralyze

...and more.

It is highly capable for offensive and defensive and has significant out of combat utility, which is rare for a discipline.

... in pathetically small amounts, every other round... if you're lucky. Swordsages are considered the weakest due to their scrappy recovery mechanic, and it's not even abuse able like the Crusader's. You need a feat to make it worthwhile in the first place.

That being said, dipping in SS for Shadow hand is great. SS/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator (Really Good PrC, BTW) and WB/SS/MoN (Which is rarely worthwhile, most of those feats are dead weight, and the bonuses are not that great.) can be fun.

Also, this seems to be the most backwards ToB thread I've ever read. Someone suggest SS and Crusader over WB? Lol wut? :smalleek:

[Duskranger]

... in pathetically small amounts, every other round... if you're lucky. Swordsages are considered the weakest due to their scrappy recovery mechanic, and it's not even abuse able like the Crusader's. You need a feat to make it worthwhile in the first place.

That being said, dipping in SS for Shadow hand is great. SS/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator (Really Good PrC, BTW) and WB/SS/MoN (Which is rarely worthwhile, most of those feats are dead weight, and the bonuses are not that great.) can be fun.

Also, this seems to be the most backwards ToB thread I've ever read. Someone suggest SS and Crusader over WB? Lol wut? :smalleek:

He asked what I found the most fun ToB classes. I don't like the Warblade. Easy as that.

[Little Brother]

People might call it cheesy, but I find an Idiot Crusader amazingly fun. Go Unarmed Swordsage 4/Warblade2/Crusader 1/Mot9 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/XYZ 5. One of the single most fun things I have ever played. Seriously. Maybe go Legacy Champion for the last 5 levels, I dunno, I have absolutely no experience with WoL. Both UT and LC advancing Mot9, obviously.

This gets you truly at-will teleportation, at-will constitution damage, at-will anything. Amazingly fun.

[AmberVael]

... in pathetically small amounts, every other round... if you're lucky.

And yet, it's still better than in no amounts every round. :smalltongue:

[Talionis]

Cleric 1 Crusader 4 Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 Master of Nine 5

Darkness and Planning Domains to get two feats you need for Master of Nine

If you really want to have Shadow Hand Manuevers this will allow you to take a good amount of them and then with Mo9 you get the best high level maneuvers you want.

[INoKnowNames]

A little silly, but...


There's a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.


Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.

I've read this, and tried to figure out where this was, but I see that the first part, Perform for Concentration, is a Bard Spell, and you'd use the Ring of Undersong to access it if you weren't part Bard, right?

'cause this combo sounds like the most amazing thing, -ever-. I'm already checking to see if I can afford the Cross Class Skill Ranks to get some Perform.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One of the reasons I really like swordsage is because they can use almost all their stats for damage, right out of the box you can get Str, Dex and Wis. And getting the other three is not that hard.

[Greenish]

One of the reasons I really like swordsage is because they can use almost all their stats for damage, right out of the box you can get Str, Dex and Wis. And getting the other three is not that hard.I've seen, and even played, swordsages without Shadow Blade. :smallamused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know it can be done; but I prefer to take shadow hand. Still I might have to try a high strength THW based swordsage.

[Greenish]

I know it can be done; but I prefer to take shadow hand. Still I might have to try a high strength THW based swordsage.I just meant that they do not get Dex to damage "out of the box".

[Psyren]

The most fun is the one you're playing. They're all awesome.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just meant that they do not get Dex to damage "out of the box".

What I meant is that IMO Swordsages are the class that gets Dex to damage the easiest, though I did phrase it incorrectly, my bad :smallredface:.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I've heard all the arguments for ToB. It makes melee interesting. You can do more things than just charge and pounce. Your damage stays relevant without you having to be a pansy-ass rogue. All good things. My question is: Which should I play first?

I'm finally getting a chance to play ToB in a game. Crusader seems strong, if not convoluted (especially for the PbP, since I have to roll an extra dice every round to randomly grant myself a maneuver)Crusader makes for a very difficult to truly kill juggernaught. His stances/maneuvers can be used for self-healing to create a perpetual pwning machine, if you build him right. Hurt him, and it only increases his damage output. Mettle makes him virtually immune to a lot of secondary effects from failed saves. All you need is a Ring of Evasion and a decent Reflex score to make you pretty much immune to anything that offers a saving throw.


warblade seems strong, but his main school (Iron Heart Surge) seems pretty passive to me, and White Raven is no good because it's a two-player game, so I only have one ally to work with.I would respectfully disagree here, because it's Iron Heart is actually NOT, in my opinon, their main school.

The Warblade's advantage is:

* they have Diamond Mind for 'no' buttons, they can guarantee that they can make at least one save of a given flavor per encounter. That's... generally enough. So they've got some 'no' buttons as well. Most of the damaging maneuvers tend to be okay for situational effects... if you need to make an attack a touch attack or to declare an opponent flat-footed... and are good for certain builds as well. Time Stands Still is, of course, made of Win.

* They have Tiger Claw, so they have a way to make TWFing actually viable. They also get Pouncing stuff, and additional damage bonus maneuvers and stances.

* Stone Dragon is generally sub-par, but picking up one of the Hammer series so you can bypass DR can be situationally useful. If you're dealing with difficult DR consistantly, I suggest taking Stone Power (temporary hit points that refresh each round, effectively negating the first 10 damage every round) and Shards of Granite (bypassing DR while doing so)

*They have a D12 HD. So they can take a beating and keep on going.

* They have Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge. This shuts down flankers hard, and makes it almost impossible to deny them dex bonus to AC.

* They have Int bonus to Initiative. Going first means not dying.


Then there's swordsage. Most maneuvers, most disciplines, worst chassis. You get Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, both of which seem cool, but you're squishier and you don't hit as often.

Take another look at Setting Sun if you think they're squishy. Baffling Defense + Shifting Defense = immunity to physical attacks. They're actually the hardest to lock up with physical attacks, thanks to their Wis bonus to AC on top of Dex on top of Light Armor.

As far as 'not hitting as often', I'd respectfully disagree with this as well. They get Tiger Claw for Pouncing Strike and x-ing Mongoose boosts to more than make up for their 3/4 BAB not having that final iterative attack. I don't ever forsee a situation in which ANY initiatior class has a problem actually hitting the AC of any kind of relevant target.

They get Evasion in-house, although it's later on in the progression. Which means, combined with their high Reflex save and probable high Dex score, they're pretty much immune to blastomancy. They have Diamond Mind access, which means they can make a Fort save they might otherwise have trouble with. With their probable Wis score and their high Will saves, they're pretty much immune here as well.

Shadow Hand gives them a lot of utility as well as damage output. It also lets a build be SAD on Dex, with Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse. The teleport maneuvers are also highly useful.

They also get the most maneuvers known and prepared, and you can pick up a feat to switch them around as a full-round action. So even if you aren't prepared... you're prepared. It's like a Batman Wizard of melee


So my question isn't which initiator is the best. Which is the most fun to play? Which maneuver combinations make for the most flavor and power? Which character will be able to do all the cool stuff in combat, and not be reduced to saying "I hit with Greater Insightful Strike. I do nothing but a single melee attack. I hit with Greater Insightful Strike."

I want variety, like with a spellcaster, but I also want my variety to not suck. What does everyone think? Please, share your experiences with me Playground!

Some fun combinations:

1) Stone Power + Martial Spirit = WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO DROP THIS THING?

Stone Power = ignore the first 10 damage per round. Martial Spirit = heal 2 points every time you hit something. This, combined with a Crusader's Steely Resolve, solid HD, and probable high AC means it's damn near impossible to actually drop him with HP damage. He's also got self-healing maneuvers which refresh themselves automatically.

2) Shifting Defense + Baffling Defense.

Baffling Defense = Sense Motive to generate a miss. Shifting Defense = every time someone misses you, get a free 5' step. Shift out of their melee reach. Now, as long as you have room to maneuver around in, you're pretty much immune to being attacked in melee. Gets better when combined with a Sparring Dummy of the Grandmaster to get 10' out of a 5' step.

3) x-ing Mongoose + Pouncing Strike.

This is a damage output combo with either Swordsage or Warblade can pull off. Pounce plus free bonus attacks that stack with haste is fun. This is doubleplusgood if you have other sources of damage (i.e. Assassin's Stance).

4) Sapphire Nightmare Blade + Precision-based damage source

Another damage combo. Sapphire Nightmare Blade makes opponent flat-footed. Admittedly, this is better with a swordsage dip on a rogue chassis, but it can be made to work in a straight Swordsage build.

5) Counter-charge

Another reason Swordsages are not, in the least, 'squishy'. Negate damage from a charge. Pouncebarians? No longer a problem.

6) Island of Blades + Allies with precision-based damage + Precision-based damage

You flank a lot easier. Hey, guess what, your AND your buddies now have precision-based damage activated!

7) Pounce + Leading The Charge.

Bonus damage on every swing in a charge is a lot of fun. It's one of the things in White Raven that is useful even if no one else takes advantage of it. This is why it's generally the go-to 1st level stance for Warblades.

8) Action Before Thought + Evasion

Just Say No to blastomancy... or anything else that offers a Ref/half.

9) Moment of Perfect Mind/Mind Over Body + Mettle

Just Say No to... everything else that offers a save. Granted, this combo is a little more difficult to set up, you may need to dip around to get Mettle, since Crusaders don't get access to Diamond Mind normally. Not that they normally need it with a high Fort and Cha to Will saves.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Locks you into Warblade though.

You say that like it's a bad thing. And it's not true anyway.

[Crasical]

I've read this, and tried to figure out where this was, but I see that the first part, Perform for Concentration, is a Bard Spell, and you'd use the Ring of Undersong to access it if you weren't part Bard, right?

'cause this combo sounds like the most amazing thing, -ever-. I'm already checking to see if I can afford the Cross Class Skill Ranks to get some Perform.

I appear to have lost a few words there. The Spell is 'Undersong' from Champions of Ruin, and it lets you swap a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. You need to get a Ring of Undersong or get your DM to allow Melodic Casting to apply to Maneuvers as well as spells.

[NeoSeraphi]

One of the reasons I really like swordsage is because they can use almost all their stats for damage, right out of the box you can get Str, Dex and Wis. And getting the other three is not that hard.

I agree with Int. I agree with Cha. But how in the Nine Hells can you get your Constitution score to-hit and to-damage? No seriously. I want to know this now.

[Circle of Life]

I agree with Int. I agree with Cha. But how in the Nine Hells can you get your Constitution score to-hit and to-damage? No seriously. I want to know this now.

Mineral Warrior? :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

I agree with Int. I agree with Cha. But how in the Nine Hells can you get your Constitution score to-hit and to-damage? No seriously. I want to know this now.Con to hit would require Mineral Warrior and only work 1/day, so it's a good thing he didn't say that. :smallamused:

Con to damage is called Insightful Strike (the maneuver, not the class feature) and it's Greater version.

[NeoSeraphi]

Mineral Warrior? :smalltongue:

Hmm, true, but that's just once per day, it's only to-hit, and the Smite effect won't add any damage to a PC since they don't have racial hit dice.

[NeoSeraphi]

Con to hit would require Mineral Warrior and only work 1/day, so it's a good thing he didn't say that. :smallamused:

Con to damage is called Insightful Strike (the maneuver, not the class feature) and it's Greater version.

Eh. That's replacing your damage, not adding to it. And he said "I can get all six to-damage". Insightful strike doesn't let you add your Strength (or Dex/Wis) to damage along with it, does it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I looked for 1st party way to have Con to damage; but the only thing I have found was the Hammer of Earth (Magic Of Rokugan) which precludes using Shadow Blade unless you also enchant it as an aptitude weapon.

[Greenish]

Eh. That's replacing your damage, not adding to it. And he said "I can get all six to-damage". Insightful strike doesn't let you add your Strength (or Dex/Wis) to damage along with it, does it?He said "they can use almost all their stats for damage" (to use an actual quote to go with quotation marks). Didn't specify "at the same time", did he? :smalltongue:

[Andreaz]

Depends a lot on the game, here.
Usually it's Warblade, as it has a great mechanic and a good series of maneuvers (diamond mind + tiger claw with TWF or Iron heart with 2H = win).
It also goes great with Gestalt games, to go with int casters for instant supergish.

For gestalt games with wis classes, swordsage is _amazing_, due to the sheer amount of things they can do to the enemies before even swinging the sword.

[KicktheCAN]

Arcane Swordsage. Full BAB, d8, 9th level spells, stances.

They get a d6 hit die. A d8 would just be silly.

[INoKnowNames]

I appear to have lost a few words there. The Spell is 'Undersong' from Champions of Ruin, and it lets you swap a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. You need to get a Ring of Undersong or get your DM to allow Melodic Casting to apply to Maneuvers as well as spells.

Dude... do you know what this means? An odd figure, whose a good entertainer, possibly through stories, with the power to help motivate his allies, and amazing swordsmanship skills, even to the point of parrying Lightning and Mind Effects? Do you know what this means?

Yoda is Part Bard Part Warblade!

Okay, so there's a little Paladin in for the Jedi Order and all that, but still!

[Crasical]

Dude... do you know what this means? An odd figure, whose a good entertainer, possibly through stories, with the power to help motivate his allies, and amazing swordsmanship skills, even to the point of parrying Lightning and Mind Effects? Do you know what this means?

Yoda is Part Bard Part Warblade!

Okay, so there's a little Paladin in for the Jedi Order and all that, but still!

I'm kinda buzzed on rum and fertility goddess tequila right now and I'm not sure what you mean but yay! I'm glad you like it. :smallsmile: