[3.5] Truenamer Hit List [CURRENTLY CLOSED]

[Story Time]

Welcome to the Truenamer Hit List Thread! :smallbiggrin:


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The thread is currently closed.
Please refrain from posting in this thread.
Private messages, of course, are acceptable.
If a moderator chooses to move this thread to another forum, then that is their prerogative.

:smallsmile:


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First, this thread is about love. Don't bring hate or rage in here. If you hate the truenamer, or hate anything about it, don't bring it to this thread. This thread is for people who love the truenamer and loved...the potential of the truenamer. I'm sure there are lots of people who read the fluffy-puff text of the class and went, "Yes!" This thread is for those people.

Okay, with the above...encouragement paragraph completed I'd like to open a thread about a Truenamers' Hit List. This hit list is an informal way of saying, "Catch errata in the truenamer class." I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. Much of the mechanical text around the class had certain...places...that just didn't make sense. I know I read the Difficulty Check table and went, "That can't be right." I later confirmed that it wasn't with a separate manual. Personal truename research...things which when read looked like errors that weren't caught before the book went to press. Anyone who knows the truenamer class well enough, through reading or playing, will be familiar with these places.

So why the thread? Well, I've thought that if I'm going to go to the trouble of assembling a list of the errors in the manual ( no offense to the developers, really! ), I should keep in mind that there are wiser, more read and experienced players out there than myself. I'd like to make sure I don't miss anything, in other words. :smallsmile:

Which reminds me: This thread is not about home-brew!

I am, and I assume you are, not here because I want a different class. I want to play the truenamer as it was meant to be played. A fun and reasonably flexible base class that is worth using to level twenty and could be useful for multiple class character building. Something that...won't spark the flames of ardent rage out of players' eyes when they read the conflicting words in the manual...or try to play a truenamer in a game.

So... the Hit List:

Law of Resistance
Law of Sequence
Difficulty Check Mechanic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12640297&postcount=128)
Personal Truename Rules
Personal Truename Research: Rules
Personal Truename Research: Costs
Utterances: Non-Sequitur Text
Utterances: Non-Sequitur Reversing

The Hit List implicitly omits prestige classes.
I'm not currently addressing those.

Also, just like the truenamer can reverse utterances, so does the Hit List have a reverse. It's called the Help List:

Items: Increase To Variety of True-speak Friendly Items
Lexicons: Increase To Number of Utterances
Lexicons: Increase To Variety of Utterances
Prestige Classes: Increase To Number [of]
Utterances: Multiple Targets or Mass Uttering Rules


This second list serves as a guide-line of what this thread is not about. The help list is displayed here because...well, lots of people feel that the above issues should have been addressed for the truenamer. And...I believe they're right. The help list list should be addressed. But for the purposes of this thread those issues are home-brew and not strictly errata.

My current plan is to read through the manual and address each of the issues in the Hit List. Hopefully, with the help of wiser minds than mine, I won't miss anything that's not now in the list. Again, the purpose of this little thread is to make the truenamer playable right out of its proverbial box.


Note About Rules Lawyers:
...as politely as I can, I will say, "Rules Lawyers are not welcome here." This thread presumes that the text of the manual in which the Truenamer Base Class was printed is in error. If the very rules themselves are broken then arguing about them will do no good. Debate is not welcome in this thread.

For those who asked for a refresher: Debate is a formal method of social interaction where one party attempts to persuade another party that their view is superior. This kind of activity has no place in a thread which assumes to correct a class which is either broken or incomplete.

A member may cite an error to add to the Hit List and explain their reasoning in the post where the citation is made. A member may also further explain their reasoning if requested to do so by another member, once.

Quotation of a rule may be made once, per rule and per member.

Discussion is perfectly acceptable. If two members disagree, then they disagree. If I see some member saying an equivalent of, "You're wrong," then they are in breach of the premise of the thread.

...again, the presumption of the Truenamers' Hit List is that the original rules are broken. We're here to rectify them, not fight about them.


Why:
The big why about all this is that some poor schmoe out there could be playing, or worse planning, a truenamer game and not really know what they're in for. I'd like the Hit List to be a community collection of reasonable clarifications for the truenamer class which won't make players cry or GameMasters scream. ( Like the original might have? ) :smallbiggrin:

If we could have a clear, "Replace [specific text] with this [text]," system available for them that'd be dandy. At least I think so.


I can't imagine that I'd need all of them, but I'll reserve the first five posts of this thread and then leave the sixth open for anyone who knows more about the woes of the truenamer class than I do! :smallbiggrin:


Thanks for stopping by. :smallsmile:

[Story Time]

It should by now be clear that I am not attempting to represent an official publishing agency or a holder of a copyright which I do not have. I hope that it's also clear that I don't mean any offense to the developers who had a hand in the manual in which the truenamer was featured. Actually, I'm really glad that it was made available. There's some neat stuff in there, though as others have mentioned it feels incomplete.

This...incomplete sensation is meant to be addressed by this thread in the form of unofficial errata. So let's take a few lines to define what that errata is. For the purposes of this thread errata is defined as:

Any obvious conflict inside the instructions for the Tome truenamer class.
Any obvious conflict between the Tome truenamer and another published manual which references truenames.
Any obvious omission in the instructions for the Tome truenamer.
If someone thinks of another good definition, I'll probably add to this list.

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Reserved for In-Thread Links?

[Story Time]

Hit List: Corrections


Truename Mechanic:

All uses of truenames, truespeak, truespeech, and utterances follow this mechanic!

The base difficulty of a character speaking to the Universe is ten. That's 10, for you visual-type Players. Applying a series of truenames to a target also carries a difficulty. That difficulty is a number equal to the target's Character Level, or Challenge Rating.

The formula is quite simple, really. When a Player wishes their character to use an utterance the difficulty to accomplish that utterance is ten, plus the target's Character Level or Challenge Rating (( 10 + CR ) or ( 10 + CL )). That is...almost all there is to it. The tad bit more is also simple.

The Law of Resistance can increase the difficulty imposed by using an utterance. Some utterances also have their own innate difficulty which is always added to the base difficulty mentioned above. That amount is equal to the level of that utterance. The Law of Resistance Difficulty is LRD while the Utterance Difficulty is UD. There is also a Lexicon which relates to items. In this case the item's level comes into the equation and is identified by IL.

The total difficulty of any and all utterances is then: ten, plus character level or challenge rating, plus the Law of Resistance Difficulty, plus the Utterance Difficulty ( if any ), and plus the Item Level ( if applicable ). The inclusion of the Item Level in the formula is only for utterances listed in the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool. Sometimes the Law of Resistance Difficulty can be zero, as can an Item Level. Just for fun, let's see that formula again once more, for the visual types out there.

Difficulty Check = 10 + [CL or CR] + LRD + UD + IL.

And that's all there is to it! Have fun!

Truename Mechanic Comments:

When I first read through the Difficulty Check instructions for the truenamer I thought, "They're trying to make a 'spells per day' rule." Which...is a nice idea conceptually, but I'm sure I don't need to make a list of all of the fans who went, "Dude, that's not cool."

Honestly, the minimalist interpretation of the Difficulty Check should be ten, plus Challenge Rating, and plus the Law of Resistance Difficulty. But then I think back to all the comments that people have made about Diplomacy. And I realize that even if any creature with an Intelligence score of three could learn True-speak, it shouldn't be that Joe Wood The Commoner ( Hi Joe! :smallbiggrin: ) could wield True-names like Diplomacy.

Using the Utterance Level in each lexicon as a normal difficulty seemed fitting in the spirit of what the True-namer was both meant to do...and struggle with as a performer learning their art.

Why ten instead of fifteen? Well, Book of Exalted Deeds addresses it on page thirty-two, under True Name. It's in the first paragraph, but second-to-last sentence. It says, "The DC for this check is 10 + the creature’s Hit Dice." The Tome itself addresses this issue on page two hundred thirty two, under Utter Defensively. These are essentially the two places that caused me to realize what the difficulty check for truename usage was meant to be based off of a ten, rather than fifteen.



Law of Resistance:

All verbal utterances obey the Law of Resistance. The first time a character speaks an utterance, the Player will calculate the DC as described under the Truespeech Mechanic ( Truename Mechanic, listed above ). However, most truenamers have an inferior grasp of truespeech in comparison to the Universe. When a truenamer uses an incomplete, incorrect, or otherwise confusing noun in truespeech the Universe will begin to resist any subsequent uses of such improper grammar. Mechanically, this is reflected by an increase to the DC by 2 for each time a truenamer uses an utterance. This increase only lasts until the end of each day. Only successful uses of truespeech will increase the resistance, the difficulty, imposed on a truenamer. The Universe does not often know what to do when exposed to incomprehensible gibberish.

If a truenamer uses a subject's personal truename along with their utterance, the Universe will not resist such impeccable grammar.

SPECIAL HOUSE RULE: The target of an utterance, creature or object, must have an Intelligence score of six or greater for the Law of Resistance to take effect. If a true-namer uses an utterance successfully on a target and the target has an Intelligence score of five or less, the Difficulty of the Law of Resistance ( LRD ) will not increase.

Law of Resistance Comments:
This one is pretty self-explanatory. There wasn't much to obviously correct. The Personal Truename rules ( which we'll get to later ) touch into the Law of Resistance. The rest...is more of a set of feelings than it is a collection of facts.

Having read comments about others who have played truenamers it seemed that they all agreed that the personal truename didn't do anything. Maybe that it didn't do enough. When I looked at the Law of Resistance to the truenamer class, it seemed immediately obvious to me that it was incomplete. After I sorted out the mechanics for personal truenames it occurred to me that the implications of those personal truenames had been omitted in the Law of Resistance.


Law of Sequence:

All verbal utterances obey the Law of Sequence. When a truenamer uses their art the Universe listens. The Universe then attempts to bend reality to the will of the truenamer. This shifting of time and shape must settle within the Universe before another command is made. This is the essence of the Law of Sequence. Mechanically, what it means is that a character may not speak an exact collection of verbs and nouns again until the first attempt, the first sequence, is complete.

The Universe possesses perfect understanding of truenames and truespeech. When a truenamer uses correct grammar the Universe can easily discern between the verbs and nouns used for a normal utterance and its reverse. Therefore a truenamer may use a single utterance, and its reverse, at the same time. A truenamer may also apply a single utterance to separate opponents or allies. As per the Law of Sequence, however, a single version of an utterance may not be applied to the same subject again until the duration of that utterance has elapsed.


Law of Sequence Comments:

As an editor of manuscripts, or Grammar Geek, I saw immediately where the Law of Sequence was flawed. True speaking of a real language is not full of single-word sentences. Real fluency in a language means that the speaker can bend nouns, verbs, adverbs, and adjectives into their sentences at will. What this means is that the Law of Sequence originally omitted the implications of verb and noun affixes ( participles ) inside a truenamer's abilities.

The more adroit readers will have immediately noticed the difference between using a regular utterance and an utterance enhanced with a personal truename. ...but this kind of thing would probably depend on the GameMaster, so it is put in the comments. What it means is that if a Truenamer character is smart enough they can use each verbal utterance twice, once without a personal truename, and once with. That should be another obvious benefit of learning a personal truename.

Again, it's heavy in the favor of what the GameMaster will allow. It also calls back to the Law of Resistance. But I really believe that it was an important part of the truenamer which was omitted originally.

...or maybe it wasn't mentioned because they wanted us to figure it out ourselves... ??:smallconfused:??



Personal Truename Mechanic:

In the Tome...on page one hundred ninety-four is a sub-section for Personal Truenames. It starts out, "The personal truename that uniquely describes an individual character is much harder to learn[...]" Inside that paragraph is this line, "But the payoff is often worth it; when you know a creature’s personal truename, it is easier to affect it with your utterances than if you were using a normal truename."

This is in obvious conflict with the truespeak DC listed on page one hundred ninety-five.

First, though, replace the paragraph mentioned above with the following:


Within the limitless capacities of the Universe and the Cosmos there exists a specific and unique name for each thing. The Universe itself has a name, though learning it is almost impossible. Each creature within the boundaries of the Universe also has a name. This identification is not a generic broadcast of a species, but rather an individual and implicit name which uniquely identifies that specific creature. No two creatures can share the exact same personal truename. The Universe will not allow it.

If, or when, a truenamer chooses to research a personal truename that noun carries an intrinsic power. Using that personal truename along with an utterance decreases the difficulty of that utterance by two. Only creatures with an Intelligence of three or more are capable of possessing a personal truename.


Further, on page one hundred ninety-five is a little list. I can't type out what it looks like, obviously, but it's on the right side of the page and starts out, "To speak a creature's truename aloud[...]"

Inside that list is this line, "When [...] speaking a creature's personal truename, the DC increases by 2 because those truenames are more linguistically complex." Replace that text with the following:


When speaking a creature's personal truename, the DC is decreased by 2. Using a personal truename in an utterance is more difficult than ordinary truespeech. However, the Universe recognizes that each personal truename carries with it a special power. That inherent raw power outweighs the ordinary speech difficulty of most common utterances.


Personal Truename Mechanic Comments:

...not much to say here. Really, it's just a bit of research and application of common sense.



Personal Truename Research:

The most important aspect of Personal Truename Research comes from several lines in the Tome which mention that all Truenamers know their personal truename. It mentions, explicitly, on page one hundred ninety-two that, "All truenamers learn their own personal truenames as part of their final stage of apprenticeship."

This means that the difficulty and cost for discovering a character's personal truename must be in keeping with what an apprentice can achieve. This word apprentice could be a substitution for the phrase Non-Player Character Class. In other words, a commoner would have to be able to succeed at all the difficulty checks and afford the costs of their personal truename research.

Therefore the machinations of the Personal Truename Research action are as follows:


The difficulty researching a personal truename is ten, plus Challenge Rating or Hit Dice. A character must succeed at a number of checks in order to discover a personal truename. The number of successes required to discover a personal truename is equal to the target's Challenge Rating or Hit Dice divided by two. The amount of time required should be a number of days equal to the number of successes required.

For clarity:
DC = 10 + [CR or HD]; the check must be repeated [CR or HD] / 2 times successfully.

When a roll is made to determine the success of a truename research check, the number of successes required can be decreased. For every two ( 2 ) points that a truenamer succeeds past the DC in researching a truename, they gain one extra success in the number of successes required to discover that creature's personal truename.

The cost for each Personal Truename Research action is one hundred gold, times the Challenge Rating or Hit Dice of the creature being researched. If a truenamer runs out of gold in the middle of research, he or she can simply stop and begin again later when they have enough funds.

For clarity:
Cost = 100 X [CR or HD] gold, per research success.

When a truenamer wins extra successes ( a brilliant moment of insight ) during a personal truename research action the extra success does not require an extra payment of gold. Costs for personal truename research actions are payed only once and incidental extra successes do not stack with that mechanic.

The cost of researching a personal truename is not one associated only with books. Some times gathering information, and getting to know certain individuals, is required. A cup of tea and an afternoon of conversation can be just as important as the legibility of the family registry that the truenamer is peeking through.

Just for completeness's sake I'll mentioned this little tid-bit. On page one hundred ninety-seven of the Tome there's a line that reads like this, "Unless you’re using magical divinations to aid your research, you can’t even attempt the Knowledge checks." This sentence does not exist in the errata.

The table Personal Truename Research Modifiers never really jumped out at me as being in error. If someone knows better and can cite sources, I hope they speak up. :smallsmile:


Personal Truename Research Comments:

Optimized...flexible...multiple classing...inefficient...

These are the kinds of words that I keep reading, or hearing in some cases, related to the truenamer class. I suppose that when I look at the truenamer class, I look at in similar ways to how I view the bard. Obviously, I'm not talking about mechanical formulas. Over and over I hear from those who have played truenamers that their experience was, "I had to do this in order to play.

"There was no flexibility," and other similar comments.

While I know that there is a limit that blatent errata correction can reach, I've been able to sympathize with the role-player for a long time. You know, that one person at table who prefers an interesting character more than the slaughter of pretend monsters.

When I think about the flexibility of the truenamer I think of two things. First, the difficulty opposing a character's true-speech. Second, the requirements for researching personal truenames. These two things, as presented in the Tome manual, prohibit multiple-class character building and character flexibility within the truenamer class. After reading as much as I can about truenamers, including a little home-brew which was not my own, I came to the conclusion that the instructions in the Tome did not properly take into account these two areas.

Now, this reasoning was not why I addressed those areas. I felt that the corrections themselves were obvious after reading the Truenamer Section in the Tome the very first time. But I mention multiple classes and character flexibility here because it might help someone else catch something that I didn't. I'm not the most literate among Dungeons & Dragons researchers. I'd just like to keep the option open that someone might see something that I haven't and point it out.

[Story Time]

Reserved for the Hit List utterances and their anomalies.

[Heliomance]

I got asked to take the post down so he could reserve a fifth post. But he didn't do anything with it, so now it's back.

Uh... this is inherently homebrew. If you're changing anything about the printed Truenamer, regardless of your (baseless) supposition that it was misprinted and not simply badly designed, then it's homebrew automatically.

[sreservoir]

"no debate" is a bit. uh.

[Psyren]

Unless you work at WotC, any "errata" you make is homebrew.

It's not a bad thing of course, but why not call a spade a spade?

[Myth]

I can see where you are coming from OP. If I understand correctly, you're not homebrewing, just pointing the flaws out right?

In any event, you saying you don't want hate, discussion OR other people's homebrew suggestions basically means you are just showing us what you think is broken and you go *LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU*

In fact the only thing we can do as per the OP is suggest something once and explain ourselves once.

This is too much IMO, it sounds more like bootcamp than a forum i come to read for personal enjoyment. Plus, the GitP staff is very strict on the rules and slaps people across the wrist (or mouth) for breaking them with a vengeance. No need to act as first lefthanant assistant mod, yes? :smallbiggrin:

[Story Time]

This...may very well be my last post in this thread. :smalleek: I wonder...

If the post that your eyes are now reading becomes the fifth post in this thread, and I notice it, then I'll open it for discussion and opinion. I'll also attempt to actively respond. As long as those opinions do not cause obvious conflict. See, I like taking responsibility for my actions even though some times people see my actions as juvenile. It makes me sick, the thought that a thread that I would start would be a place where people started fighting in rather than encouraging each other. That's why I say that debate is not welcome and the word debate is clearly defined in the opening post.

...I've seen a number of true-namer threads. I've seen a number of opinions beyond my own about how the true-namer falls short as a class. The reason that I made this thread was to have...a central repository which at least noted those items all in one place. Some of the failings can not be addressed with errata. But also, I did not want any...sour feelings from those who have played the true-namer as prescribed by the Tome to...infect the process of what was being attempted here.

I have no problem with someone coming in and saying, "When I played, this was an issue for me," and then explain why. What might earn a report to a moderator is, "You're doing it wrong! The book doesn't say that! You're stupidity is breaking [this book] and [this book] and [this book]!"

Or, "The true-namer is a horrible class! It should be shredded and burned for all the garbage inside those pages! You people are just as stupid as the designers for liking it! I can't believe I bothered to post here!"

See? It isn't nice is it? :smallfrown: That's why I discourage debate and debaters. Mean people have no business ruining the fun for the rest of us, no matter how entitled they are to their own opinion.

More than that, it doesn't matter how right they are. Even if what they state is accurate according to a manual, their social acid wounds the emotions of the rest of us to the point that they've become guilty of something else. That itself completely nullifies any integrity granted by their adherence to the Rule Book.

SonofZeal, through private messages, noted to me that I could post in a thread and the posts above could still be deleted after that post. I wasn't aware that I could do that on this forum, so I apologize for any confusion that my ignorance caused. Thanks also, Son.

All I really wanted was an organized thread. I have a bunch of home-brew ideas which don't fit here and I may still post them in the home-brew forum. ...most of those are story ideas and character snippets rather than true home-brew. Some of them address the Help List directly, like custom utterances and a new lexicon. ...we'll see.

At any rate, that's the decision that my conscience allows me to come to. If this post becomes the fifth post...and the gracious moderators of this site don't smite me for my naivety...then I'll consider this thread active and hope that no one slings barbs of hate in my general direction.

If someone wants to send me a comment, my private message inbox is currently open. I don't mind receiving private messages and answering them about certain issues. At the moment I would prefer that method until this thread is sorted out.

Thanks for reading, everyone. :smallsmile: I look forward to sharing productive conversation about true-namers with you.

[Heliomance]

You said yourself that you probably wouldn't need all five posts. Why not just see if you can build the thread with four? It should be enough.

Or simply ask the moderators if you can try again, and repost the entire thread.

Also, the examples you give there are not debate. They're flaming and would be instantly smacked down by the first passing mod.

[sonofzeal]

I think my favourite bit of nonsense is:

"When you deliver an utterance, you're remaking reality itself. Whether the 'default reality' returns quickly or slowly, it does so at its own pace. Once you've delivered an utterance, it will run its full course". <- this is used to justify why you can't dismiss your own utterance effects.

That'd be fine, but the next page says:

"Utterance effects with ongoing durations can be dispelled normally using dispel magic."


Err..... what?