Magus

[gregoroverlord]

Hey, I'm new to the forum so this might have been asked already, but, there's a class one of my friends brought to me called the magus (in pathfinder, "Ultimate Magic"). From what he says, it's pretty broken and one of my players is planning on having his next character. I haven't had a chance to look at it myself, but I don't think I'll be able to find a good counter for it. I try to crack down on my players if they break their characters too much but I can't say no this one until I've had it in a campaign. If anyone can find me something to keep from having to send stupidly high level monsters at the party because of this character, I'd be much obliged.

In short: Hard counter to Magus class

[Manateee]

'Broken' is a tricky word. It can't really do anything a Wizard can't do earlier.
Assuming your game can withstand a wizard or cleric, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Anderlith]

Magus isn't broken, it's actually a good solid class. It can hold it's own without outclassing other class. They are just spellswords, they have wizard buffs & elemental damage all wrapped around a mediocre fighter with a lowered BAB.

[Krazzman]

It could be broken if you said for your campaign to be Tier 5 Only.

Really, how can one ever think a non-full-caster being broken? (except for the summoner...)

Declining this class based on "brokeness" would be like declining sugar-free gum because of the sugar in it.

As mentioned if you allow sorcerers, wizards, druids, clerics or the oracle there is no way the class could be overpowered compared to the others.

Furthermore...you can counter him pretty easily. Resistances ftw...

[Arbane]

They're hardly broken. A Magus is a mediocre melee-er with mediocre Blastomancy, and the two halves do combine reasonably well. They can do a lot of damage on a critical hit, but so can a Barbarian.

[Tytalus]

If you are actually talking about the Magus (that is the Pathfinder classs): it's not a broken class, as others have pointed out.

The Ultimate Magus (3.5 class from CM) is a completely different (dual advancement / theurge) prestige class. When used as intended, it's not broken at all, but in fact quite weak compared to a full caster. It can get pretty powerful if optimized (the Practiced Spellcaster feat is the key here) and has some limited metamagic Shenanigans options, but that's about it.

[El Dorado]

Pathfinder Magus (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcasters/magus.html)

[Ravens_cry]

It's a gish in a can, a base class version of a common multiclass concept.
Personally, I don't see them being terribly broken.

[Boci]

Is there a trick that allows a magus (or is it anyone) to threaten with a whip? That trick might come as a nasty shock for a low-op group, but it may just be a knee jerk reaction.

[stack]

That takes feats. Lots of feats, so it only comes into play mid-levels, at the expense of doing anything else with them. Nice if you want it, but you can just wear a cestus to threaten 5' anyway, so it is far from game breaking.

[Ravens_cry]

Is there a trick that allows a magus (or is it anyone) to threaten with a whip? That trick might come as a nasty shock for a low-op group, but it may just be a knee jerk reaction.
Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) and Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) seem to be what you are looking for.
Very Indiana Jones, though, as noted, it takes a lot of feats.

[Boci]

Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) and Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) seem to be what you are looking for.
Very Indiana Jones, though, as noted, it takes a lot of feats.

Possibly, but I recall a trick mentioned in a whip threat that specifically mentioned the magus.



That takes feats.

Which feats?


Lots of feats, so it only comes into play mid-levels, at the expense of doing anything else with them.

Ture, but it may catch some DMs by suprise. I had one DM you always looked shocked when I reminded them that a monster just provoked an AoO.

[Curious]

Hey, I'm new to the forum so this might have been asked already, but, there's a class one of my friends brought to me called the magus (in pathfinder, "Ultimate Magic"). From what he says, it's pretty broken and one of my players is planning on having his next character. I haven't had a chance to look at it myself, but I don't think I'll be able to find a good counter for it. I try to crack down on my players if they break their characters too much but I can't say no this one until I've had it in a campaign. If anyone can find me something to keep from having to send stupidly high level monsters at the party because of this character, I'd be much obliged.

In short: Hard counter to Magus class

Unless your player knows what he is doing (ie. grabbing dervish dance and experimental spellcaster) he isn't going to be terribly impressive compared to the rest of your group. He can't move and use his primary class feature (Spell Combat), he can't fight as well as a barbarian, he can't cast as well as a wizard. He'll do alright, but it's hardly broken.

[Big Fau]

My opinion of Paizo's sense of balance is that they shouldn't be able to sit down without falling over, but the Magus class is no more powerful than the Duskblade (which can get solid damage, but isn't capable of ruining your campaign).

In other words, the only way you'd have a problem with this class is if you aren't used to seeing damage outputs of 200+ on a full attack. And if you do, you should consider sitting down with either the optimizers here or the ones at Minmax Boards and discussing it with us.

[stack]

Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) and Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) seem to be what you are looking for.
Very Indiana Jones, though, as noted, it takes a lot of feats.

Also, you have to grab the prehensile whip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/prehensile-whip) trait for the Indy goodness.

Prerequisites to threaten 5' with a whip: EWP (whip) (can be gotten w/ racials), Weapon Focus (whip) (blech), Whip Mastery (okay), base attack bonus +5 (IE Level 7, which is a feat level in PF). You'll also likely want weapon finesse. Serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat) and the improved version are great for using manuevers.

I would go all-in and take agile maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat), weapon finesse, and fury's fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat), pump dex, and be a tripping/disarming beast (augmented by true strike w/ spell combat).

ed- this should be on the 3.5/PF/D20 sub-board.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Hey, I'm new to the forum so this might have been asked already, but, there's a class one of my friends brought to me called the magus (in pathfinder, "Ultimate Magic"). From what he says, it's pretty broken and one of my players is planning on having his next character. I haven't had a chance to look at it myself, but I don't think I'll be able to find a good counter for it. I try to crack down on my players if they break their characters too much but I can't say no this one until I've had it in a campaign. If anyone can find me something to keep from having to send stupidly high level monsters at the party because of this character, I'd be much obliged.

In short: Hard counter to Magus class

What exactly about the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) is striking you as broken? As others have said, it is viewed by many here as a well balanced class. It doesn't get the higher level spells (namely, those above sixth level) which are able to really smash a campaign, it's ability to cast and attack isn't overpowering (especially since Spellstrike is focused on damage spells), and while it does synergize with the Wizard and Sorcerer (via Broad Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/broad-study-ex)) it only grants access to spells of seventh level, which is still manageable, and isn't really a Magus anymore (though, that makes me wonder...Magus 6/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10 gives BAB 16, Wizard CL 13, Magus CL 6, and synergy via Broad Study, so it's worse than Fighter/Martial Weapon Proficiency Class 1/Wiz 9/EK 10, but it may be more effective (in some ways) than Magus 20).

So, what about it concerns you, Gregoroverlord? Is there a particular trick? And what is the rest of your group playing? If they're all playing Truenamers, CW Samurai, and the like, then, yeah, the Magus will be more powerful. But so would a Bard, a Sorcerer, a Cleric, or any of the Tome of Battle classes.

[Tvtyrant]

The staff magus can refill staves very slowly (a 9th level charge a day roughly) so you could UMD staves outside their list and never worry about the staff running out, but other than that they are basically just a gish in a box.

[FMArthur]

Aside: The magus's spell list isn't pure blaster like the duskblade's is. It's very much like a 'sample' version of the wizard list, and since you can get wizard spells, it's easy to just treat it as being the wizard list in terms of formulating strategies at character creation. The duskblade can just about be treated as a barbarian who substitutes 'brute force' for 'magic' and applies it in the exact same way. The magus is actually a proper caster hybrid.

Anyway, let's look at the magus from the wizard end of the caster-brute spectrum:

{table]
Lose: One of every three level of spell progression, and then 7th level spells entirely at an arbitrary cutoff. You are only about 66% of the wizard in terms of spellcasting. You have fewer spells per day and your new spell levels come around by levels where they are merely useful, not amazing. Automatic access to summons, enchantment effects and over half of your noncombat utility spells. Much of your combat spells as well, but you do actually keep a lot of the best ones. You can't recover all of them but you can cherry-pick a few from the wizard list using class features.Gain:
The ability to, if you start your turn closeby, whack someone with a one-handed melee weapon before casting your spell. This will almost never amount to anything better than 1d8 + 3~8 damage over the course of your career. A one-handed attack is pretty much the worst of all worlds in this game - just about any melee benefit is achieved with a two-handed style, Two-Weapon Fighting or sword-and-board. Reminder: your enemies have to already just be standing there and trading blows with you to even benefit from this full-round action at all. A better class chassis: average 2 extra HP per level, good Fortitude saves, slightly less sucky BAB. Medium BAB means your extra attacks come somewhat late compared to other melee. If your spell is range: touch, you can add your attack damage again by forfeiting the much easier touch attack for a regular attack. This is quite prohibitive FYI; you don't get a lot of useful offensive touch spells. If your aim is just damage, Shocking Grasp is the best you can do for a long time. Intensified Spell metamagic can extend its lifespan in your career. Compare even weak traditional blasting spells like Fireball and this looks quite poor in effect.You get and lose a smattering of other minor abilities as well; the trade of Familiar + specialist options for Spell Recall, Magus Arcana and Arcane Pool is mostly even and less of a driving factor behind one's overall power and concept, except in a few cases (the extra good specialist options).| [/table]

Essentially you're trading a lot of spellcasting power for the simple ability to whack nearby people with a weapon - very poorly by warrior standards - on the same turn you cast a spell, and increased ability to survive at close enough range to do so. If you allow wizards in your games, I guarantee you that the magus will not be overpowered unless powergamed in wizardly fashion anyway.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The trick to the Magus is that they really are better at dealing damage than a Wizard for several early levels-- they're murderific-- but they're not capable of simply shutting down entire encounters the way the Wizard is. If you have a Magus overshadowing the other bokslingers in your party, the trick is to throw more HP at them-- large numbers of lower CR monsters.


Essentially you're trading a lot of spellcasting power for the simple ability to whack nearby people with a weapon - very poorly by warrior standards - on the same turn you cast a spell, and increased ability to survive at close enough range to do so. If you allow wizards in your games, I guarantee you that the magus will not be overpowered unless powergamed in wizardly fashion anyway.

It's synergy-- Spellstrike plus Spellcombat means you can cast any touch-range spell as part of a full attack action to get an extra attack, with your weapon, at your highest BAB. Get a good magic weapon, spend a point from your arcane pool to add a bunch of elemental enchantments, then throw a full attack plus shocking grasp. That's actually pretty respectable damage for a low-level character.

[gregoroverlord]

I finally found time to look at the class and it was rather hyped. It's pretty much what was said, two classes mashed together. It looks strong but it's spell casting isn't what my players hyped it up to be and, honestly, neither is the combat. Critical hits aside, it isn't too worrying. Thanks for all the input, everyone!
I believe my players actually skipped reading part of the character. I was told originally it /always/ added intelligence to AC. As it is, all it can really do is give itself a one turn shield spell. The idea of being able to crit with spells was also something that seemed to unbalance the character, but after looking at the spells a magus could use, I'm fine with that part now too. Shouldn't be hard to handle.

[Greenish]

The idea of being able to crit with spells was also something that seemed to unbalance the characterEh, it's not like you needed Magus for that. All spells which have an attack roll and deal damage can crit (unless PF changed that).

[Bhaakon]

Eh, it's not like you needed Magus for that. All spells which have an attack roll and deal damage can crit (unless PF changed that).


No, the only thing Magus does is let you use the weapon's crit range (including keen or other effects to increase it) instead of waiting for a natural 20. It's a pretty nice bonus, but nothing a well-built charger, pouncing barbarian, or sneak-attacking rogue can't beat in a single round.

[Blisstake]

How about Golems?

The magus doesn't have the magical utility of the wizard to still be useful (since most of their spells will be foiled by the golem's immunity), and doesn't have the pure strength as a fighter/barbarian to deal with its high hp and DR.

Unless he's using some weird build, I think that would be a nice counter.

[Bhaakon]

Most DR can be overcome by just pumping up a weapon's enhancement bonus to +3 or higher, and a magus can do that pretty easily with its arcane pool. It's still going to struggle with some of the immunities and raw HP total, though.

[Keneth]

The character I'm playing at the moment is a magus and I can tell you from experience that it's a very solid class and while a good minmaxer can outshine casual players, it's far from overpowered.

There are several very important things to note if you wish to challenge a magus. Firstly, while they can dish out lots of damage, it's usually very focused (single target spells), so throwing a bunch of less powerful mobs at them is an effective strategy since they'll be forced to decide between wasting their spells or wasting their hp. This can be taken a step forward by throwing swarms at them but that's a really low blow. Secondly, they tend to use more or less the same elemental spells over and over (shocking grasp and frigid touch being among the favorite) so resistances go a long way toward foiling their plans and immunities might disable them altogether. Vampiric touch is also a favorite so you might also consider opponents with spell resistance instead. Lastly, while a magus is a decent combatant, it's not really a warrior class. Highly armored opponents, concealment, incorporeal creatures, maneuvers, conditions and the like can severely cripple their effectiveness.

You shouldn't be too concerned about the magus breaking your game and trying everything to counter his abilities, it'll just make him frustrated. You should make the encounters challenging for everyone and then maybe help out the players whose characters are lagging behind in the optimization department.

[jmelesky]

I believe my players actually skipped reading part of the character. I was told originally it /always/ added intelligence to AC.

That's a feature of Kensai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai), a Magus archetype (featuring the rarely-seen phrase "This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name").