Help with a strange combat manevuer.

[DegenPaladin]

Im tryin to figure out how to let a player achieve this cinematicish attack. He wishes to drop off of his flying mount onto the back of a flying dragon. Its sounds like the stuff legends are made of to me, even if a touch suicidal.

So anyway, Im hoping for help on how to mechanically decide on success or failure. Thanks for any opinions or options.

Also if this should be in Homebrew then sorry in advance.

[Rizban]

What system are you using? D&D? GURPS? Something else?

[Strormer]

Given the location of the thread I'll assume some variation of DND3 and advise to that.
I would make him position himself above the dragon and then use a jump/balance/acrobatics type check to hang on. Once on, force further acrobatics checks depending on his actions and prepare him for the constant punishing he'll take from the dragon.
It's actually similar to something I did to a dragon that was pissing me off once involving a spear and my 100ft. of rope. Ever gone dragon fishing? You haven't lived until you've reeled one in.
More than anything, make it fun and let him get some hits in. It's a creative solution to the problem of a flying, enormous foe that bespeaks a player thinking in character and in three dimensions. This deserves to be rewarded, if only by making him at least partially effective by doing so. I would even say that he could make an attack role in the same action as the acrobatics so that if he was to get crazy lucky and role a 20 he could hit the dragon in the eye or something, forcing it to land and allow the rest of the party to get in on the fight with less trouble. This should probably be his goal with such a tactic anyway as he's unlikely to solo the dragon, at least in a standard issue DND dragon fight.

[DegenPaladin]

Yeah I kind of assumed the threads location would be an indicator to the system. :P we are playing 3.5

Any ideas on DC's or what kind of options I should give the dragon for trying to shake him off?

Thanks in advance.

PS: Like I said I think its an awesome idea and would really like to make it as epic as it deserves to be :)

[Darrin]

Im tryin to figure out how to let a player achieve this cinematicish attack. He wishes to drop off of his flying mount onto the back of a flying dragon. Its sounds like the stuff legends are made of to me, even if a touch suicidal.

So anyway, Im hoping for help on how to mechanically decide on success or failure. Thanks for any opinions or options.


Technically it's a Jump check with a DC 15 (see "Jumping Down", PHB p. 77). If the check succeeds, the PC takes slightly less falling damage, reducing the damage from the fall by 10'. If he fails, he takes the full damage from the fall, and most likely lands prone on top of the dragon's back... by a strict reading of RAW, assuming the PC readies an action to interupt the dragon's movement, he has more or less absolute control over what square he lands in, so there's actually no chance that he'll miss the dragon. From that point, there's no clear rules for standing on top of another creature, so you may have to decide if the falling PC is initiating an improvised overrun/bull rush (by falling into the dragon, he's essentially trying to move into it's square) or initiating a grapple (to cling to the dragon's body). Before we get into that, it's probably best to re-examine the "falling" part first...

Since a simple Jump check with no chance of missing the dragon violates most interpretations of believability and common sense, the DM may have to step in and suggest a different mechanic. What the PC wants to do is essentially a "Stunt", and since we're trying to evoke action-movie-style physics, it's best not to get too realistic or complicated about this, but we do want to have at least a reasonable chance for failure. A simple Jump check with the dragon's AC as the DC might work (with modifiers for speed and distance), as would treating it as a simple Dexterity check with a DC in the 15-20 range. If you want something a little more complicated, you could have the PC make a ranged touch attack against the dragon's touch AC, treating the PC's body essentially as an improvised projectile (with possibly a -4 improvised penalty). This allows the PC to use his BAB and Dex modifier to get a better roll... but since dragons usually have notoriously low touch ACs, that may be skewing things a little too heavily in the PC's favor.

Assuming the PC lands on the dragon, determine any falling damage, both for the PC and the dragon. The PC can use both a Jump check and a Tumble check to reduce his damage: Jump check DC 15 to reduce by 10', Tumble check DC 15 to reduce by 10'. For the dragon, treat the PC as a falling object (DMG p. 303). If the PC isn't trying to kill the dragon and wants a "soft landing", you may want to skip this.

If the dragon's reach is greater than 5', then resolve an AoO for the dragon for the PC falling through a threatened space. Essentially, the dragon get's a free swipe, although as the DM you could rule that the dragon wasn't anticipating this tactic and gets no AoO (particularly if the PC is using his body as a projectile... you don't get AoOs against projectiles). The PC may take damage, but the attack doesn't have any other effect.

Decide if you want to give the dragon a chance to "dodge". There are two ways to do this: treat the PC's movement as an Overrun attempt (provoke another AoO, then Dragon's Str check vs. PC's Str/Dex check), or give the dragon a Ref save against a falling object (DC 15 per Heroes of Battle). I would strongly advise against allowing either of these, because the odds are so strongly in the dragon's favor that this will most likely ruin such an awesome cinematic stunt. The results of a successful overrun are also not entirely clear... the dragon would be knocked prone (probably requiring a stability check to recover, Ref save DC 20 or the dragon starts falling), and the PC would continue with this movement... which probably means he just bounces off the dragon and continues falling... maybe give the PC a chance to grapple at that point to prevent falling off.

Next, resolve the Grapple. The dragon gets an AoO, but you may want to skip this (particularly if the dragon already got an AoO for the PC moving through his threatened area) because it's very likely the dragon will hit and if it does any damage, the grapple automatically fails, and the PC falls off. The PC then has to make a melee touch attack, which should be easy enough, or if you already let the PC make an attack roll to hit the dragon with his body then just use that as the touch attack. PC makes a grapple check vs. dragon's grapple check. If the PC succeeds, then good luck you've got to figure out how the rest of the grapple rules work. If the PC fails, then he slips off the dragon and is falling again.

As a last resort, if the PC failed the grapple, I might allow a last-ditch effort to find something to grab onto before falling off completely... a Ref save with a DC in the 25-35 range, if successful he's hanging by his fingertips and is nearly helpless (no Dex bonus, no actions other than hold on or let go). Assuming he survives the dragon attacking or trying to shake him off, this gives the PC a chance to re-establish the grapple or have an ally save his bacon.

There are also two feats that the PC probably doesn't have but could be useful here. The Battle Jump feat (Unapproachable East) and the Roof-Jumper feat (Cityscape) both allow a PC dropping on an opponent from above to treat it as a charge attack, although in either case it's not clear if the mechanics of resolving the attack make any more sense than anything I wrote above.

[Kaje]

Dude, just let it happen. It'll be awesome.

[Reltzik]

Agreed. Jump check to land. DC.... is something you'll have to eyeball.

As for staying on, I'd call that a pretty clear Ride check.

[00dlez]

I'm mostly on board with Darrin's suggestion above, though I have a slightly different approach

If I were DM:
1. Balance check*
2. Ride check to fast dismount
3. Touch attack**
4. Balance(or ride)/Reflex each round after - Treat PC as grappled but not the dragon***

*: Success +2 circumstance bonus on steps 2-3, fail -2 circumstance bonus on steps 2-3. I would not make this a make it or fail the attempt roll, but the 4 point swing could easily make the difference later on. DC not too hard, 15-20 range.

**: A successful touch attack lets him grab hold/land on the dragon. It's entirely unlikely that he would successfully grapple a dragon unless he was built to grapple (which I'm assuming is not the case) and using something he is bound to fail at as a critical part of the maneuver a wasted roll.

***: This is kind of oddly worded, let me explain. As before, using grapple checks seems a poor place holder mechanic because of the PC's likelihood of failure. Instead I would require a balance check each round:
Balance success: Use the actions available in a grapple as a guide to what the PC can freely do. (Use an item, draw a weapon, make an attack with 1 handed weapon, etc)
Balance failure: No action and reflex save or completely lose grip and plummet earthward
The dragon would be free to act normally

If the PC wants to/is actually able to grapple the dragon, by all means let them, but that will cause the dragon (and PC) to fall.

[Darrin]

***: This is kind of oddly worded, let me explain. As before, using grapple checks seems a poor place holder mechanic because of the PC's likelihood of failure. Instead I would require a balance check each round:


I considered adding a balance check into my own post, but in my mind I didn't see the PC trying to "stand" so much as just hold on for dear life. If the PC really wants to stand, then not only does he want to do an awesome action-movie-style stunt, but he wants to look like a complete bad-ass while doing so. Depending somewhat on the genre/style the game was trying to evoke, I would most likely totally allow this.

[Person_Man]

I think Darrin's analysis is correct.

From a non-RAW perspective, I would have him make a Jump check (DC 15 or you miss the dragon and fall) followed by an AoO from the dragon (if he hits, then the PC is pushed aside and falls) followed an attack or opposed Grapple check from the PC (his choice). If the PC succeeds, something awesome happens (PC gets to describe it, then DM tries his best to make it happen). If the PC tries to kill the dragon by plunging his sword into his back, then let it be a auto-critical hit or *4 damage or something similar. If the PC tries to Grapple the dragon, let him "steer" the dragon however he wishes. If the dragon is low Int, let him "break" the dragon and allow him to ride it as a mount.

You might also want to google the cut scenes from Dragon Age Origins - it has some cool hero on dragon combat.

[DegenPaladin]

I like the grapple idea to represent trying to hold on versus the dragon trying to shake him off + it gives a pretty good base line for things I can imagine you actually doing while clinging for dear life to a pissed off flying lizard. The only thing Im thinking is perhaps giving the dragon a -20 to its grapple check ala grappling with only one limb. Thoughts?

[00dlez]

I like the grapple idea to represent trying to hold on versus the dragon trying to shake him off + it gives a pretty good base line for things I can imagine you actually doing while clinging for dear life to a pissed off flying lizard. The only thing Im thinking is perhaps giving the dragon a -20 to its grapple check ala grappling with only one limb. Thoughts?

Look up the Scorpion's Grasp feat (Sandstorm). -20 might actually be too light of a penalty...

IIRC, taking this feat allows you to grapple with an off hand (and still be considered not grappled, ie. still flying) with a -20 penalty. Without the feat, you simply can't and the dragon would either fall, or not be grappling.

I certainly see an argument for houseruling otherwise, just some added numbers to confuse you and eventually pop the vein in your head food for thought.

[ericgrau]

Im tryin to figure out how to let a player achieve this cinematicish attack. He wishes to drop off of his flying mount onto the back of a flying dragon. Its sounds like the stuff legends are made of to me, even if a touch suicidal.

So anyway, Im hoping for help on how to mechanically decide on success or failure. Thanks for any opinions or options.

Also if this should be in Homebrew then sorry in advance.

I'd say climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm) check at a +12 difficulty (+10 falling, +2 extra difficulty by DMG fudge rules), so total DC 22 I'd say. The dragon may bank and turn to one side provoking a DC 27 (25+2) climb check. Otherwise the climb DC is 12 each round to move around on all fours at 1/4 speed on a dragon flying level. For another +5 DC the player may move at 1/2 speed instead. The dragon may attack the creature on his back normally with wing, tail slap and sometimes bite attacks (if PC is far enough forward). And falling onto his back provokes an attack of opportunity unless the dragon is unaware.