Nasuverse general discussion thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Eldariel

2012-01-08, 07:10 PM

How convenient that you made this thread. I just finished the 100% completion of FSN (visual novel with Realta Nua CG and voices; thanks Prime, Heaven's Feel alone made it more than worth playing over watching) and figured I'd type up something on Tsukihime (+ KT), Fate & Kara no Kyoukai. Spoilers a-plenty and rather long; put into tags for convenience.

Fate/Stay Night (Warning: Long):
Routes:
Fate finally convinced me that Nasu hates his characters. Now, I'll have to preface this; I identify rather strongly with the characters in most story-centric games. This was quite painful FSN. Fate as a story was actually pretty comfortable in this regard; the whole deal with Berserker, with Saber being near-death all the time and Shiro almost dying multiple times was painful, of course, but the story was still full of hope on a fundamental level. Berserker and eventually Gilgamesh/Kotomine as the big bads formed a line-up of strong but fair and beatable adversaries and the good guys' position remained reasonable throughout.

By contrast, Unlimited Blade Works and particularly Heaven's Feel were incredibly painful. Unlimited Blade Works starts going all wrong when Saber gets beat up by Kuzuki Soichirou, the whole deal with Fujimura and Saber getting mindraped, Archer trying to repeatedly kill Shiro... Biggest difference is that where-as Berserker and Gilgamesh are relatively chivalric and fair opponents (Kotomine less so but he isn't very committed to fighting), Caster is closer to something from a horror story. It was quite despair inducing and every time things seemed bad it kept getting worse. Until the last part at any rate.

And, of course, there's Heaven's Feel which is just evil. First you find out that Shinji is a total monster, and tries to take it out on Sakura. Then you find out about Sakura actually being a magus. Then Saber dies. And then you find out there's nobody who can defeat that black shadow. And then hundreds die. And the shadow gets stronger. And then you find out that Zouken is immortal and has control of Sakura. And then you find out that not only did Saber die, she's now evil. And Berserker too. And then Archer dies. And then you find out that Archer's arm will kill you. And then Ilya gets captured. And somewhere along the times you find out that Sakura can't be saved and wants to kill herself a few times (but can't 'cause of Shiro or Rider). And the only reason you're alive is 'cause nobody felt like killing you. And then you die by your own hand. Oh, and I could've really made do without a detailed explanation of the functioning of creatures called "lust worms".
Heroines:
The emotional windfall in the latter two paths was pretty immense for me. Of course, Fate had its ending to make up for being relatively happy otherwise. Then again, I don't mind bittersweet endings; eternal love and shining memories carry far. Indeed, this seems to be a theme in Type-Moon games. Last Episode pretty much confirmed this - though I have to admit, I'd be a bit surprised if nothing happens between Rin and Shiro after Saber disappears. They do appear to have feelings for each other regardless of the path, after all - hell, the only reason they hold back on Sakura's route is Sakura herself. Seems it remains that way even in the True End. Oh, and Cherry Blossoms' Dream should count as a bad end. Yeah, you saved Sakura but she's barely a shell of a human and remains that way throughout her life so you really saved nothing; apparently I can't stand Normal Ends in Type-Moon games.

The story was rather rough for everyone but Rin, really. Ilya and Saber; outside Fate-path Saber spends half of the story tortured or on the enemy's side, and in the one path where she does finally understand her wish and loves Shiro, she leaves mere seconds later. Sakura's part in Heaven's Feel was obviously horrible but given there's nothing to suggest that she actually had all that done to her on the other paths (what with Zouken not intervening with the whole grail war, Shinji having a legitimate Command-spell and all) I'm guessing that's only for Heaven's Feel. Certainly, the fact that the shadow doesn't appear suggests Sakura is not a Vessel in the other two paths. Ilya, by contrast, is killed on Unlimited Blade Works when her being Shiro's step-sister is revealed, and sacrifices herself in Heaven's Feel (let's face it, the normal ending is no ending) and spends most of Fate as a reluctant antagonist.

For whatever reason, I appear to like Rin most out of the bunch. I guess the game is sort of written that way, with her getting the best treatment & the most screentime, and Rin's route being considered "Shiro's Route". Her vexing tsundereness just seems to work really well on her personality and she seems to interact well with Shiro far as the story goes, making parts with Rin enjoyable to follow. She's also the source of much of the enjoyable comedy in the game, and seems to enjoy it alongside the player which is definitely bonus points. She's also the target of most of Shiro's snark throughout the game and the two form a rather beautiful equilibrium. Also, it doesn't hurt that she's a really contradictory and layered character.

Ilya would be my second favorite and I guess it's not surprising given she shares a number of qualities with Rin. She really gets the "little sister"-feel through and pulls the Yin/Yang play off real well. She's also intriguing since she starts off quite mysterious and while the cat's sort of out of the bag before then, you only get the big reveals in Heaven's Feel towards the end of the game.
Comedy:
With all this in mind, I was really thankful for all the intentional and unintentional comedy in the series. The constant plays on the characters' bashfulness with their emotions, and basically anything involving Fujimura and all the random jokes really help to carry through the otherwise heavy story with a smile. Some lines tried too hard but usually it worked out pretty well and I had a blast. Rin telling Shiro "You're the first person I've seen almost die three times in one day" was something that stuck to mind as hilarious in context. There's the fact that every big choice comes with "I don't need to think about it! The only X -" followed by two opposite options. Then there's the H-scenes many of which should count as comedy themselves...but that's to be expected when written by Nasu (H-scenes are not his forté).

Many such randomness made all those "wrong choices" worth viewing. Especially ones that involve a pissed-off Rin. "That's just imitation. You may be a sheep, but you are so mutated you could kill a wolf." - you can't come up with stuff like that.
Shiro:
Far as Shiro the hero goes, I found the altruist Shiro surprisingly tolerable (though I do prefer the pragmatist Archer at least when he's not trying to kill himself, but that's probably rather universal). Probably because such a character is easy for me to identify with; it's not too different from my own personality. It was...rather strange to have him abandon his ideal so willingly and easily for someone who's impossible to save but then again, I guess it's a plot point that impossibility never meant much for him.

I have to say, I was really disappointed the "Remain a superhero" option didn't have him kill Sakura. After all, he was the one who had promised Sakura earlier to kill her if she became evil; you'd think he'd want to keep the promise over the rules Rin tries to abide by - and if the rest of the game is anything to go by, Rin would relent if Shiro were to tell her that. The whole action feels so Shiro-like. Specifically, like Shiro is in UBW and Fate; and that choice means to remain that way.

Though I found the look they gave him, especially they way his eyes were drawn (they have those strange black rings in the iris), really weird for a normal student. Then again, I guess that might just fall under creative license.
Servants:
One peculiar thing about the show is that while Servants are initially presented as superior beings that can only be matched by other Servants, many humans beat Servants throughout the series. Off the top of my head:
Kuzumi Soichirou has defeated Saber in single combat
Rin has defeated Caster in single combat (also took one life off Berserker)
Shiro has defeated Archer, Gilgamesh, Black Berserker and Black Saber in single combat

And Sasaki Kojirou, a Servant that's not really a Servant, fends off each of the martially minded Servants at least once in an evenly matched fight. I mean, yeah, Emiya using his Reality Marble is probably among the scarier humans and since he attacks with martial weapons, and specifically Noble Phantasms, he can bypass most of the Servants' natural defenses which makes him naturally suited for the job.

Still, the fact that he defeats multiple Servants alone throughout the series, and that he's not the only one either, raises to question how much a Servant's inherent power really differs from a human. Seems to me more like that part was bollocks and the Servants are so strong because of the powers they had as heroes. In the beginning the game also makes a fuzz about how Servants aren't but weapons and yet every single one seems to respond best to being treated as a human; we see this on Rider, Saber, Archer & Lancer. Really, it seems like the first explanation of "heroic spirits" is largely inaccurate.
Amusingly enough, the game also made me happy to have studied German. Even though meaningless, it was kind of interesting to know what was being said, or at least tried to. And if I hadn't, I might not have recognized Die Lorelei. I'll have to say, I was not expecting to utilize it here of all places.
I intended to write something on the others too but I appear to have spent stupid amounts of time and characters on this so I guess I'll do that another time. Note, this is merely me sorting out my thoughts of the game.

Prime32

2012-01-08, 07:44 PM

Sakura's part in Heaven's Feel was obviously horrible but given there's nothing to suggest that she actually had all that done to her on the other paths (what with Zouken not intervening with the whole grail war, Shinji having a legitimate Command-spell and all) I'm guessing that's only for Heaven's Feel.
Nope, Shinji was visibly using the Book of False Attendance in all three routes. Which is made of Crest Worms.

The implication is that shortly after Fate and UBW, the apocalypse happens.

I have to say, I was really disappointed the "Remain a superhero" option didn't have him kill Sakura. After all, he was the one who had promised Sakura earlier to kill her if she became evil; you'd think he'd want to keep the promise over the rules Rin tries to abide by - and if the rest of the game is anything to go by, Rin would relent if Shiro were to tell her that. The whole action feels so Shiro-like. Specifically, like Shiro is in UBW and Fate; and that choice means to remain that way.I thought he did kill Sakura, if you're talking about the "Mind of Steel" end.

Salbazier

2012-01-08, 07:52 PM

Prime32

2012-01-08, 07:54 PM

Something that is quite sad, and a bit vexing for me, the revelation in Heaven's Feel made the end of other routes ...less good than what it may seems. It also make a burden for writing post-Fate or post-UBW fanfic, since the writer must address those things somehow.Well don't worry, because in Fate/hollow ataraxia Rin fools around with Kaleidoscope magic and manages to fuse the timelines. :smalltongue:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-08, 11:06 PM

Also, if I remember my Word of God retcons correctly, someone (from what I remember, a certain schmuck with the King of Bros for a Servant in F/Zero) shows up and dismantles the Great Holy Grail after Fate and UBW after Saber did such a good job beamswording the dangerous part.

Arakune

2012-01-08, 11:12 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-08, 11:30 PM

In theory that happens in any of the three routes.

Yeah, but whatever was left wasn't as much of a problem in HF because Zouken and Kotomine are both dead, Shirou Excalibur'd the heart of the corruption, and Sakura and Ilya are under control and dead, respectively. At least until Ataraxia plot started, apparently.

Arakune

2012-01-09, 01:53 AM

At least until Ataraxia plot started, apparently.

To be fair, we got moar Bazzet that way.

Eldariel

2012-01-09, 02:09 AM

Nope, Shinji was visibly using the Book of False Attendance in all three routes. Which is made of Crest Worms.

The implication is that shortly after Fate and UBW, the apocalypse happens.
Huh. I find it hard to believe that the apocalypse were unavoidable at the end of either route though; both times the opened vessel of the Grail is smashed after all and Sakura does not have any servant spirits absorbed, and Kotomine is dead; don't know about Zouken.

But given the shadow doesn't appear once on either route, I think they will be alright. Too many pieces required for materialization of Angra Manyu don't seem to be in place. And well, if Last Episode is to be believed, they definitely were alright after Fate - it is implied Shiro lived a full life, after all.

I guess Nerdorama's explanation does make sense but I haven't read said retcons so I'll just have to take your word for it.

I thought he did kill Sakura, if you're talking about the "Mind of Steel" end.
I do believe it's "Mind of Steel". I'm talking about Bad End #30, last one on Day 9. You talk with Ilya outside the church immediately after Kotomine has treated Sakura. Ilya tells you she'll be your ally no matter what, and you get the decision to "...Persist on being a superhero." or "I want to protect Sakura." You enter the church, Kotomine tells you about the surgery, Rin says it's her job to kill a heretic magus, doubly so if she's her blood.

Both, Kotomine and Rin expect you to try to stop Rin but you say "I have nothing to say. But - if I can take your place, I will." Rin answers "No. This is my role. I can't give you this role." She proceeds to kill Sakura, Kotomine tells you the grail war will return to normal and that you'll win because you're Kiritsugu now. You state you'll never fight Rin, but Kotomine states you'll be forced to fight her as she'll go mad unless she obtains the Grail. Then Shiro pretty much goes "Yeah, I'll win to protect my ideal", and as Kiritsugu you won't lose. Unless there's a difference in translation or something.

Though I find it hard to believe that Shiro would actually kill either Rin or Ilya even if he did fight them, Kiritsugu or not. I guess that ending is trying to drill in how deep an event horizon he jumps over when he abandons Sakura.
By the way, I guess it's an empty wish but I wouldn't suppose any version of Fate/Hollow Ataraxia were completely translated? I only know of the visual novel patch which is sitting at 71% or something.

SITB

2012-01-09, 05:58 AM

Huh. I find it hard to believe that the apocalypse were unavoidable at the end of either route though; both times the opened vessel of the Grail is smashed after all and Sakura does not have any servant spirits absorbed, and Kotomine is dead; don't know about Zouken.

But given the shadow doesn't appear once on either route, I think they will be alright. Too many pieces required for materialization of Angra Manyu don't seem to be in place. And well, if Last Episode is to be believed, they definitely were alright after Fate - it is implied Shiro lived a full life, after all.

I guess Nerdorama's explanation does make sense but I haven't read said retcons so I'll just have to take your word for it.

I think Zouken also mentioned that he is nearing the end of his extended lifespan anyway in HF, and add that to the fact tha Archer didn't know about the Shadow, and yeah; Sakura gets a rough deal but the appocalypse is avoided. Also, F/Z spoilers happenes.

Also, Gil killed Zouken in UBW but how knows if that sticks.

Though I find it hard to believe that Shiro would actually kill either Rin or Ilya even if he did fight them, Kiritsugu or not. I guess that ending is trying to drill in how deep an event horizon he jumps over when he abandons Sakura.

You really ought to finish reading F/Z in order to pass judgement on what Kiritsugu will or will not do, even Kotomine gives a brief TL;DR of his actions in HF.

By the way, I guess it's an empty wish but I wouldn't suppose any version of Fate/Hollow Ataraxia were completely translated? I only know of the visual novel patch which is sitting at 71% or something.

IIRC F/HA is only a visual novel slice of life type thing. The only other Fate/Merchandise related thing I can think of that was translated is Fate/Extra (a game for the PSP).

Eldariel

2012-01-09, 07:52 AM

You really ought to finish reading F/Z in order to pass judgement on what Kiritsugu will or will not do, even Kotomine gives a brief TL;DR of his actions in HF.

I'm in the process of it. But still, in context of this particular ending I'm not thinking from an emotional but a practical point of view; I don't see Shiro/Kiri killing Ilya or Rin just for the sake of killing them, but only if he needs to in order to destroy the grail.

I guess the real question is how broken exactly Rin will be after she kills Sakura since that determines whether she'll fight Shiro to her death in order to protect it. Hm. Now that I think about it, I guess that's why the scenario was written with Shiro carrying the burden of killing Sakura either - it wouldn't be possible for it to be written as quite as complete a tragedy if he did.

Carrying out the promise himself would've fit Shiro's character far better IMHO though, and since that would've lead to a reasonable end I think it would've made for a better Normal End for the path than its actual Normal End. It feels like they forced the "Bad End" into that one; an end where Sakura gets her wish of being killed by Shiro to seal away Angra Manyu would've fit the mood of the path IMHO.EDIT: Ignore me, analysis based on flawed facts is worthless.

IIRC F/HA is only a visual novel slice of life type thing. The only other Fate/Merchandise related thing I can think of that was translated is Fate/Extra (a game for the PSP).

I understand F/HA is like the Kagetsu Tohya of Fate though with less serious a tone (not that KT was wholly serious either). Hence why I'd like to play it through after F/SN. But yeah, I'm reading F/Z right now.

Prime32

2012-01-09, 07:59 AM

IIRC F/HA is only a visual novel slice of life type thing. The only other Fate/Merchandise related thing I can think of that was translated is Fate/Extra (a game for the PSP).IIRC Fate/unlimited codes was also translated.

NeonBlack

2012-01-09, 08:38 AM

I'm in the process of it. But still, in context of this particular ending I'm not thinking from an emotional but a practical point of view; I don't see Shiro/Kiri killing Ilya or Rin just for the sake of killing them, but only if he needs to in order to destroy the grail.

I guess the real question is how broken exactly Rin will be after she kills Sakura since that determines whether she'll fight Shiro to her death in order to protect it. Hm. Now that I think about it, I guess that's why the scenario was written with Shiro carrying the burden of killing Sakura either - it wouldn't be possible for it to be written as quite as complete a tragedy if he did.

Carrying out the promise himself would've fit Shiro's character far better IMHO though, and since that would've lead to a reasonable end I think it would've made for a better Normal End for the path than its actual Normal End. It feels like they forced the "Bad End" into that one; an end where Sakura gets her wish of being killed by Shiro to seal away Angra Manyu would've fit the mood of the path IMHO.

Thing is, at that point in HF neither Shirou nor Rin know about Angra Manyu. Heck, they don't even know for sure (they may suspect something, but there's no definite proof yet) that Sakura's linked with The Shadow at all, or that she's a rogue Grail usurping Ilya's place and slurping Servant souls left and right. Kirei surely knows, but he hasn't explained that part yet. So, the only reason to kill Sakura at that point is because she's a magus that can go rogue at any point in time if Zouken wills it so. Thus, it's Rin's responsibility to protect her city and kill the threat before it becomes a real danger. Shirou even tells her that he will take her place if she wants and do it himself, but Rin insists that it's her role.

About Shirou killing Rin and Ilya, well, they don't know that the Grail is corrupted either. So the Holy Grail War would continue as normal, with Ilya presumably absorbing the Heroic Spirits released by Sakura after her death. No one is fighting to destroy or protect the Grail at that point, they're all fighting to win. And since Shirou's without a Servant, his best bet would be to go for the Masters, namely Zouken, Rin and Ilya. Just like daddy.

And yeah, unfortunately there's no full F/HA translation. It's been progressing slooooowly, but at least is hasn't stopped altogether. Sometime in 2027, maybe. *sigh*

Eldariel

2012-01-09, 08:48 AM

Thing is, at that point in HF neither Shirou nor Rin know about Angra Manyu. Heck, they don't even know for sure (they may suspect something, but there's no definite proof yet) that Sakura's linked with The Shadow at all, or that she's a rogue Grail usurping Ilya's place and slurping Servant souls left and right. Kirei surely knows, but he hasn't explained that part yet. So, the only reason to kill Sakura at that point is because she's a magus that can go rogue at any point in time if Zouken wills it so. Thus, it's Rin's responsibility to protect her city and kill the threat before it becomes a real danger. Shirou even tells her that he will take her place if she wants and do it himself, but Rin insists that it's her role.

About Shirou killing Rin and Ilya, well, they don't know that the Grail is corrupted either. So the Holy Grail War would continue as normal, with Ilya presumably absorbing the Heroic Spirits released by Sakura after her death. No one is fighting to destroy or protect the Grail at that point, they're all fighting to win. And since Shirou's without a Servant, his best bet would be to go for the Masters, namely Zouken, Rin and Ilya. Just like daddy.

Holy ****. Thanks. My whole analysis was based on a huge mistake. I remembered that this took place after the encounter in the Einzbern Forest. Well then, that explains everything. I got Day 9 and Day 10 mixed. Blaming my mess of a brain.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-09, 09:26 AM

But... What about Angel Notes? :smalltongue:

Hush now we don't want to bring up that the end of the Nasuverse has already been written do we?

Arakune

2012-01-09, 12:15 PM

Hush now we don't want to bring up that the end of the Nasuverse has already been written do we?

Written, predicted and completely and utterly unavoidable.

Even the more upbeat Melty Blood agrees, though the universe where Ryougi Shiki exists may be an exception.

Prime32

2012-01-09, 03:12 PM

There do not appear to be any vampires in the KnK-verse. Draw your own conclusions from this.

Oh, and my personal theory is that BlazBlue is set between Angel Notes and Fate/stay night. :smalltongue:

BlazBlue plot spoilers:
A plan to tap the power of Origin using artificially-created girls, large numbers of souls and a "Cauldron" backfires when one of them transforms into "The Black Beast" and contaminates the world with concentrated mana. During the war against the monster, weapons and genetically-engineered creatures are developed which can tap this mana.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-09, 03:28 PM

There do not appear to be any vampires in the KnK-verse. Draw your own conclusions from this.

That would be rather singling things out on the thin basis that they play no part in the events of KnK. Given how much does certainly exist in both I'd venture they still exist there.

And certainly the underlying conditions that result in Angel Notes shouldn't be all that different.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 03:31 PM

One peculiar thing about the show is that while Servants are initially presented as superior beings that can only be matched by other Servants, many humans beat Servants throughout the series.

Soichirou – buffed by Caster.
Rin has defeated Caster in single combat (also took one life off Berserker) – rank A magic
Shiro – magic and reality marble at that.
Sasaki Kojirou – he got on the level of True Magic just by swinging his sword and his other ability that basically makes you to fight him as if you fight him for the first time.

As for routes I prefer to judge them separately as making “because of HF every other route is dead end” is pretty cheap for a game that is supposed to be about choices. Personally, I think the only redeeming part of HF was Kirei.

Trixie

2012-01-09, 03:51 PM

Nasuverse? Oooh, nice! :smalltongue:

For my part, just finished watching 13 episodes of Fate/Zero in two sittings during christmas, eagerly waiting for second half! :P

SITB

2012-01-09, 04:10 PM

As for routes I prefer to judge them separately as making “because of HF every other route is dead end” is pretty cheap for a game that is supposed to be about choices. Personally, I think the only redeeming part of HF was Kirei.

You forgot Shirou was at his most badass during the last two days of HF (Nine Bullet Revolver, All The good/evil in the world, Spark Liner High..).

On the other hand the last two days of HF had a disproportionate amount of concentrated awesome compared to the previous parts of HF which mainly involved bad stuff happening to characters.

Trixie

2012-01-09, 04:33 PM

On the other hand the last two days of HF had a disproportionate amount of concentrated awesome compared to the previous parts of HF which mainly involved bad stuff happening to characters.

Um, about that...

Why Fate/Zero is so much more badassery than F/SN? :smallconfused:

I mean, in F/SN weakened Saber pretty much trumps everyone, but in F/Z, despite being supported by 3 full mages she struggles against most of enemies, to the point other servants had to save her life 3 times, and that's just the first half?

Theoretically, given who they are, heroes from F/SN should be stronger, yet, Berserker/Archer/Caster/Rider/Assassin matches would end with F/SN characters being owned, only Lancer is debatable (and that's pretty much only due to Gae Bolge, F/Z Lancer almost killed Saber without resorting to such gimmick). Oh, Shiro/Saber vs Team Einzbern/Saber would lose pretty badly, too.

Lifeson

2012-01-09, 04:34 PM

Oh, and my personal theory is that BlazBlue is set between Angel Notes and Fate/stay night. :smalltongue:

BlazBlue plot spoilers:
A plan to tap the power of Origin using artificially-created girls, large numbers of souls and a "Cauldron" backfires when one of them transforms into "The Black Beast" and contaminates the world with concentrated mana. During the war against the monster, weapons and genetically-engineered creatures are developed which can tap this mana.

QFT. Also, the fact BlazBlue is easily summarized as "Fate/Stay Night meets Melty Blood meets Guilty Gear" makes me think that the Nasuverse had a huge hand in BB.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 04:38 PM

You forgot Shirou was at his most badass during the last two days of HF (Nine Bullet Revolver, All The good/evil in the world, Spark Liner High..).

I prefer UBW::Shirou over HF's one. UBW thing is just that good to me, so… :}

Also, was that “Nine Lives Blade Works” thing? I didn't like it (and similar thing in Fate) because it's essentially "I killed you many times in 1 blow, your ability is invalid." Berserker's ability should work by death count not HP damage. It shouldn't matter whether I hit him for over 9000 damage or not, it's 1 death. HF's literal application of “I am the bone of my sword” is kind of amusing though.

Prime32

2012-01-09, 04:41 PM

I mean, in F/SN weakened Saber pretty much trumps everyone, but in F/Z, despite being supported by 3 full mages she struggles against most of enemies, to the point other servants had to save her life 3 times, and that's just the first half?What are you talking about?At one point Saber struggles to defeat Caster in melee. In Fate she gets beaten up by Berserker, in UBW she only defeats Assassin through a fluke, and in Heaven's Feel...

Also, 3 mages? Who's the third?

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 04:43 PM

Um, about that...

Why Fate/Zero is so much more badassery than F/SN? :smallconfused:

Because it was done after the F/SN and stand on its shoulders?

Horrible truth: I don't particularly liked F/0, aside from Caster and his masters speeches about God and before Caster's transformation. I feed on pathos(is that the word?) perhaps.

Eldariel

2012-01-09, 04:48 PM

Also, was that “Nine Lives Blade Works” thing? I didn't like it (and similar thing in Fate) because it's essentially "I killed you many times in 1 blow, your ability is invalid." Berserker's ability should work by death count not HP damage. It shouldn't matter whether I hit him for over 9000 damage or not, it's 1 death. HF's literal application of “I am the bone of my sword” is kind of amusing though.

Meh, that's just Rule Of Awesome at works. Nine Lives Stealer's name doesn't come out of nowhere; it's the natural enemy of Berserker. I mean, Nine Lives Blade Works doesn't just deal you damage - it kills you. Nine times. Also, I understood it was nine simultaneous blows?

Alternatively, I guess, the sword can kill 9 targets and Shiro simply used all of the "charges" on Berserker, aware of God Hand, with each killing him once (if he instantaneously revives it's no problem to use them in immediate consecution). Though to be fair, Berserker did still have some to spare after that so it's not a perfect counter but it's faster than any other option that does not penetrate God Hand (I recall Caliburn did).

But I recall Nine Lives Blade Works was described pretty accurately in the VN. He struck 9 fatal points simultaneously, hence killing Berserker 9 times.

It does raise the question of why Archer never projected it against Berserker when facing him though. Then again, Archer didn't project a lot of things he could've that would've tipped the scales of any fight wholly in his favor. I guess Unlimited Blade Works is just kind of an unfair ability.

EDIT: Ah yeah, Nine Lives Stealer was originally Hercules's Hydra Slaying Strike. More precisely, it's the bow but since Berserker can't use those abilities, the Noble Phantasm was useless for him. Makes you wonder what would've happened if Hercules were summoned as Archer or Saber instead...

SITB

2012-01-09, 04:57 PM

I mean, in F/SN weakened Saber pretty much trumps everyone, but in F/Z, despite being supported by 3 full mages she struggles against most of enemies, to the point other servants had to save her life 3 times, and that's just the first half?

Theoretically, given who they are, heroes from F/SN should be stronger, yet, Berserker/Archer/Caster/Rider/Assassin matches would end with F/SN characters being owned, only Lancer is debatable (and that's pretty much only due to Gae Bolge, F/Z Lancer almost killed Saber without resorting to such gimmick). Oh, Shiro/Saber vs Team Einzbern/Saber would lose pretty badly, too.

Archer- Gil is by Word Of God the strongest servant, no contest

Berserker- Hercules can easily win in one on one duel with most servants, he only loses because he faces either (A) overwhelming force that can slaughter normal Servants (The Shadow, Gil) or because he still wasn't fully recovered from his wounds (Fate). F/Z Berserker looks far more impressive because he cheats like a motherlover and Berserker is a terrible class for Hercules.

Hercules is still the most powerful Servant summoned in the fith war despite being a berserker, and would beat F/Z berserker like a red headed stepchild.

Caster- F/SN Caster is superior to F/Z Caster in every respect apart from the NP, and F/Z Caster only gains the edge because he is insane and doesn't care about winning but rather creating the largest amount of destruction.

Rider- Yeah Alexander is awesome.

Lancer- Cú Chulainn wins easily since he isn't bound by Kotomine command seal to not kill opposing Servants.

Nobody cares about Assassin.

So the decisevly better Servants are Rider, Archer and Saber (Unless you count Rin!Saber or Saber Alter). Caster could go either way though.

Regarding Shrou versus Kiritsugu: But of course, Shirou at the start of the VN is struggling to become Kiritsugu, while Kiritsugu is at the end of his route being fully comitted to his ideals in a way that Shirou can't bring himself to follow (Except in the Mind of Steel ending)

I prefer UBW::Shirou over HF's one. UBW thing is just that good to me, so… :}

Also, was that “Nine Lives Blade Works” thing? I didn't like it (and similar thing in Fate) because it's essentially "I killed you many times in 1 blow, your ability is invalid." Berserker's ability should work by death count not HP damage. It shouldn't matter whether I hit him for over 9000 damage or not, it's 1 death. HF's literal application of “I am the bone of my sword” is kind of amusing though.

I felt HF was thje perfect extension of Shirou's character arc; in UBW he is asked to abandon his self to pursue his ideals despite knowing to where it will lead him, while HF asks Shirou if he is willing to sacrafice other people he cared about of the altar of his ideals.

Do note that at this point corrupted Berserker didn't have his skin (Y'know the thing that gave him protection)* when Shirou used Nine lives.

*Recall that Berserker ripped out his skin when he struggled to fight with the Shadow and how he looks after the corruption.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 05:04 PM

Meh, that's just Rule Of Awesome at works. Nine Lives Stealer's name doesn't come out of nowhere; it's the natural enemy of Berserker. I mean, Nine Lives Blade Works doesn't just deal you damage - it kills you. Nine times. Also, I understood it was nine simultaneous blows?

Alternatively, I guess, the sword can kill 9 targets and Shiro simply used all of the "charges" on Berserker, aware of God Hand, with each killing him once (if he instantaneously revives it's no problem to use them in immediate consecution). Though to be fair, Berserker did still have some to spare after that so it's not a perfect counter but it's faster than any other option that does not penetrate God Hand (I recall Caliburn did).

But I recall Nine Lives Blade Works was described pretty accurately in the VN. He struck 9 fatal points simultaneously, hence killing Berserker 9 times.

It does raise the question of why Archer never projected it against Berserker when facing him though. Then again, Archer didn't project a lot of things he could've that would've tipped the scales of any fight wholly in his favor. I guess Unlimited Blade Works is just kind of an unfair ability.

Simultaneous strikes make more sense as 1 kill to me… AFAIR to overcome Berserker's ability you need to kill him with different methods, no? (although Kojirou's ability might count too as it's always like the first time, who knows).

As for Archer… no idea. Not enough prana maybe? Unlimited Blade Works usefulness somewhat depends on what are you fighting against (F/0 Berserker would be a problem, I guess), but it is indeed strong.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 05:14 PM

I felt HF was thje perfect extension of Shirou's character arc; in UBW he is asked to abandon his self to pursue his ideals despite knowing to where it will lead him[/SPOILER]
Nah, he becomes his ideal and that is his self. It's not mindless kill them all as in HF bad ends. He is more like Archer who was given a new chance with his life. Even their UBWs look slightly different, even his chant is slightly different: “ Thus, his life has no meaning” vs “Thus, my life needs no meaning”. Archer is the one who gave up on life, Shirou is the one who did not.

(more opinions) In HF he stepped on its own ideals instead of adapting, he is no longer who he was before, thus it is “death” of him (and birth of other Shirou, but whatever :}).

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-09, 05:25 PM

Um, about that...

Why Fate/Zero is so much more badassery than F/SN? :smallconfused:

I mean, in F/SN weakened Saber pretty much trumps everyone, but in F/Z, despite being supported by 3 full mages she struggles against most of enemies, to the point other servants had to save her life 3 times, and that's just the first half?

Theoretically, given who they are, heroes from F/SN should be stronger, yet, Berserker/Archer/Caster/Rider/Assassin matches would end with F/SN characters being owned, only Lancer is debatable (and that's pretty much only due to Gae Bolge, F/Z Lancer almost killed Saber without resorting to such gimmick). Oh, Shiro/Saber vs Team Einzbern/Saber would lose pretty badly, too.

(Because I dare say Fate Zero is better written....)

That said Saber is pretty continually shafted in both. Noting that even at her arguable strongest late in UBW she could only fire off her Noble Phantasm in a limited fashion. For all their stats and skills, and Sabers exceptionally variable stats, it seems is that only Noble Phantasms matter when it comes to Servant combat. In both arcs I think the only Servants she comes close to beating without trouble are Archer and *sorta* True Assassin. So Diarmuid beating her with his own NPs is entirely consistent, only Gae Bolg being the Worf Barrage saves any of the routes from starting.

Also we hypothetically never see Saber at her best because only late in Fate does she possess Avalon and there she's still hampered by being stuck with Shirou. I've kinda wondered how 'Ideal' Saber would fair against the Types.

SITB

2012-01-09, 05:26 PM

Nah, he becomes his ideal and that is his self. It's not mindless kill them all as in HF bad ends. He is more like Archer who was given a new chance with his life. Even their UBWs look slightly different, even his chant is slightly different: “ Thus, his life has no meaning” vs “Thus, my life needs no meaning”. Archer is the one who gave up on life, Shirou is the one who did not.

(more opinions) In HF he stepped on its own ideals instead of adapting, he is no longer who he was before, thus it is “death” of him (and birth of other Shirou, but whatever :}).

The whole point of Shirou's battle with Archer in UBW is enforcing the fact that despite the fact that he knows what will happen to him at the end of his life he is still willing to pursue that ideal because it's worth believing in. That's why his chant is different, he still believes wholeheartedly in his ideal as opposed to Archer who feels that he was betrayed by it.

In contrast, in HF he can't really continue to follow that ideal and has to compromise it. Either by killing someone he cares about the save the faceless masses (Kiritsugu route), or by placing greater value on people he cares about.

UBW never addressed the fact that even as it is the ideal is unattainable and Shirou would have to make compromises like Kiritsugu did, while HF is all about that. (And Kotomine)

Also regarding your opinion on F/Z, have you tried reading the F/Z novels? I found that the anime lost something when it cut almost all the mental dialogue of the characters.

(Because I dare say Fate Zero is better written....)

Having badass stuff happen is not better writing though. F/Z does have the awesome benefit of being a light novel rather then an eroge visual novel so a lot of the faffing about (romantic scenes, food porn, porn porn..) doesn't exist. Though To a lesser extent gun porn/motorcycle porn does exist in it.

It's also more concise being a series of linear novels rather then alternate routes for one time period.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-09, 05:28 PM

Nitpicking Nasuverse magic.

Are you guys serious?

Eldariel

2012-01-09, 05:51 PM

Simultaneous strikes make more sense as 1 kill to me… AFAIR to overcome Berserker's ability you need to kill him with different methods, no? (although Kojirou's ability might count too as it's always like the first time, who knows).

As for Archer… no idea. Not enough prana maybe? Unlimited Blade Works usefulness somewhat depends on what are you fighting against (F/0 Berserker would be a problem, I guess), but it is indeed strong.

I decided to dig it up. Basically he creates Nine Lives Stealer as the weapon that can defeat Berserker; he searches for it and decides the only weapon to kill Berserker is the weapon he's wielding. As for Nine Lives Blade Works itself, here's the game description, word for word (*cue Emiya (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uvhmN5EJNI)*):
"----"
The running giant won't stop with one blow, and normal projection is useless against him. Tracing won't do the trick. I can't beat this giant unless I use projection past my limits. Therefore----

"----Trigger, off"

Nine in my head. I use all twenty-seven magic circuits in my head and smash it in one blow----

----Two seconds.

He's right before me. His massive sword is upraised. Torrent and swirling vigor. He steps forward, and I confront him by also stepping forward. Upper arm, collarbone, windpipe, temple, diaphram, rib, testicles, and thigh. I take aim at the eight targets.

"Set --- Nine Lives Blade Works."

I surpass the crashing speed of sound using godspeed----!

*slice'n'dice*

But he doesn't fall. His entire body has been torn through by his own weapon, but Berserker's still alive.

"Haa-ah-...!"

I step forward. His weapon is in my left hand. I'm faster. I can land a finishing blow before Berserker, who's missing an eighth of his body. I raise the giant sword up to his chest and thrust it like a lance.

*splurt*
And this is obviously the end of the Nine Lives Blade Works. Since it might be relevant (or because I ended up typing it up already before realizing it was wholly irrelevant, take your pick), rest of the fight:
But I lost. I put all I had into it. I used every ounce of the unfair advantage I have, but it still wasn't enough. Berserker's attack draws near. It's swung down with hurricane force.

"----"

I twist my body. I use all my abilities to evade his attack. I saw it coming. So I can dodge it. Berserker's attack will only graze my head. ----But that will still kill me instantaneously. Even a grazing blow from that monstrous blade will be the end. A direct hit can even destroy the ground. Even a brush with the tip of his sword will scatter my head like tofu. The giant sword comes crashing down. My vision freezes the instant my head is blown away. ---But. The sword swung with blinding speed... ...Is stopped with blinding speed.

*Ilya scene*

I pierce him. Without hesitation or mercy I drive the giant sword into his heart. There's no counter-attack. Berserker exhausts the last of his life force and crumbles to dust, for good this time.
In short, Shirou did a nine-part attack (through the power of sword - abilities Hercules himself could've used if he wasn't unlucky enough to be crammed into the ****ty class that is Berserker) each of which was supposedly fatal, and then followed it up with a 10th attack that finally slew Berserker.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 05:51 PM

>spoiler text
Well, that's your way to read it. Let's leave it at that since those debates usually become… quite crazy and loud (^ ^)

Also regarding your opinion on F/Z, have you tried reading the F/Z novels? I found that the anime lost something when it cut almost all the mental dialogue of the characters.
Not yet (aside from that King's banquet thing). However the thing is characters themselves (mostly) don't impress me. Well, Berserker maybe and that Caster's speech I mentioned before (although his methods… ugh). Is there anything worth reading about Berserker there? He does not seem like a talkative type…

Kiritsugu is not my type of a hero. Rider is, for all the awesomeness he is attributed with, a horrible king by my standards. Gilgamesh… Gilgamesh in Fate's end, I doubt something can beat that for me. Kid Gilgamesh maybe :smallbiggrin: Lancer is stuck with that situation because of his autocharm shenanigans. Saber – F/0 is a story titled “Let's hit Saber with everything we've got” or something :smallfrown: Assassin… nobody cares about him, even Nasu world itself (with that ability that depends on Luck and Rank E Luck) :smalltongue:

spoiler text
I remember that text. Well, if Nine Lives Stealer is indeed stealing them… ok, I might buy that. I forgot the name (^. ^)

SITB

2012-01-09, 06:03 PM

Well, that's your way to read it. Let's leave it at that since those debates usually become… quite crazy and loud (^ ^)

I am not talking about which route is better, or what path should Shirou follow; but rather the thematic drive beneath each route. HF can oly come after UBW because it's subject matter is all about dealing with the fallout from the conclusion reached in UBW. My point was that it was a natural extension of Shirou's character arc.

Not yet (aside from that King's banquet thing). However the thing is characters themselves (mostly) don't impress me. Well, Berserker maybe and that Caster's speech I mentioned before (although his methods… ugh). Is there anything worth reading about Berserker there? He does not seem like a talkative type…

Kiritsugu is not my type of a hero. Rider is, for all the awesomeness he is attributed with, a horrible king by my standards. Gilgamesh… Gilgamesh in Fate's end, I doubt something can beat that for me. Kid Gilgamesh maybe :smallbiggrin: Lancer is stuck with that situation because of his autocharm shenanigans. Saber – F/0 is a story titled “Let's hit Saber with everything we've got” or something :smallfrown: Assassin… nobody cares about him, even Nasu world itself (with that ability that depends on Luck and Rank E Luck) :smalltongue:

F/Z is a tragedy. It says though on the first lines in the text:

"Let us tell the story of a certain man.
The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them."

If you don't like that, F/Z probably isn't for you. (Though there are several awesome scenes you could enjoy regardless).

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 06:08 PM

I am not talking about which route is better, or what path should Shirou follow; but rather the thematic drive beneath each route. HF can oly come after UBW because it's subject matter is all about dealing with the fallout from the conclusion reached in UBW. My point was that it was a natural extension of Shirou's character arc.
And my point it's not. There is no fallout. I'm not talking about “better” either, but we see the world differently. Hence disagreement.

Yes, I'm not into tragedies.

SITB

2012-01-09, 06:10 PM

And my point it's not. There is no fallout. I'm not talking about “better” either, but we see the world differently. Hence disagreement.

Yes, I'm not into tragedies.

Then what is the correct decision in the Mind of steel ending? If there are no problems with that ideal then that situation should be easily solvable.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 06:12 PM

Then what is the correct decision in the Mind of steel ending? If there are no problems with that ideal then that situation should be easily solvable.

You are trying to apply HF to UBW. He is different in each route. It's that simple.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-09, 06:26 PM

I remember that text. Well, if Nine Lives Stealer is indeed stealing them… ok, I might buy that. I forgot the name (^. ^)

Umm while I've only loosely been following this part of the convo its never been rendered as Nine Live Stealer in my recollection. And you seem to be taking erroneous conclusions from it under that name. Its not "stealing" lives or something, nothing I've seen gives it this power

Nine Lives: The Hundred Shooting Heads is a "style" NP representing in particular the slaying of the Hydra and in general Berzerker unrivaled badarseness in life. Which is about as good as getting a wave motion sword from legends of being shiny or making up an NP out of nothing to cover a patently untrue recognizably so lets leave it at that.

Nine Lives Blade Works doesn't makes sense in that Bezerker's weapon is in no way legendary so shouldn't have done that on its own. The closest we can probably get is a parallel like how Archer created Cadalbolg II along with turning it into y'know an arrow. Then tack on the same way Caliburn did it, basically something using the NP scale of A rank does so much damage it gets to count multiple times or such.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 06:33 PM

basically something using the NP scale of A rank does so much damage it gets to count multiple times or such.

Rank A is required to deal damage to him in the first place… I was against the thing that over 9000 damage counts as 9 (or whatever greater than 1) deaths. But Nasu's world is… a weird place.

SITB

2012-01-09, 06:37 PM

You are trying to apply HF to UBW. He is different in each route. It's that simple.

What does that sentence even mean? Shirou starts the same in each route and changes due to the differing circumstances in each route. In UBW Shirou fought Archer because he believed that even if all the terrible stuff that would happen to him later on trying yo uphold his ideal it will still be worth it. HF asks if Shirou is willing to sacrifice other people lives in order to uphold this ideal. If he is willing Shirou will become Archer/Kiritsugu; if not then you get the rest of HF.

Hell, even Archer mentions he had to compromise his ideals during his rant in UBW. But Shiroy chooses to pursue that ideal anyway because he believes that he it is worth believing in, while HF is forced to make the same compromises Archer had far earlier.

EDIT: As I said before, no skin, no protection.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 06:50 PM

What does that sentence even mean?
There is no Mind of Steel ending in UBW, therefore it happens to HF::Shirou only. You know, you try to apply things that happen in one route ignoring the fact that character's situation depends on his overall actions. That's all.

EDIT: also, God Hod does not mention skin at all. Unless something was mentioned in HF itself that I missed.

Trixie

2012-01-09, 06:50 PM

What are you talking about?At one point Saber struggles to defeat Caster in melee. In Fate she gets beaten up by Berserker, in UBW she only defeats Assassin through a fluke, and in Heaven's Feel...

Also, 3 mages? Who's the third?

Well, she also killed more servants than the rest of them combined? :P

As for third, Kiritsugu's assistant?

Berserker- Hercules can easily win in one on one duel with most servants, he only loses because he faces either (A) overwhelming force that can slaughter normal Servants (The Shadow, Gil) or because he still wasn't fully recovered from his wounds (Fate). F/Z Berserker looks far more impressive because he cheats like a motherlover and Berserker is a terrible class for Hercules.

Hercules is still the most powerful Servant summoned in the fith war despite being a berserker, and would beat F/Z berserker like a red headed stepchild.

Pardon? :smallconfused:

Two points here:

A) Defense: Hercules was one-shotted by Gate attack. L. was attacked 3 times without effect, and Gilgamesh had to retreat. Unless Hercules can attack faster and stronger than anti-hero tailored weapons of GoB, it's really no contest.

B) Offense: Hercules - whacking with club. That's it. L. can simply grab a gun and shoot him apart, or, if we go non-cheesy way, draw his own Excalibur-like sword, and seeing he is basically Saber 2.0 beat Hercules without much problem.

If Hercules gets a lucky hit, maybe, but otherwise properly commanded L. will blast him to bits.

Caster- F/SN Caster is superior to F/Z Caster in every respect apart from the NP, and F/Z Caster only gains the edge because he is insane and doesn't care about winning but rather creating the largest amount of destruction.

Apart from the only important thing in Caster class, you mean? :smallamused:

Sure, Medea is better at magic, but seeing how she lost to Rin, it isn't saying much. BB's demons trump skeletons any day, his NP Caster's magic and NP, and his final attack trumps anything Medea had...

Lancer- Cú Chulainn wins easily since he isn't bound by Kotomine command seal to not kill opposing Servants.

Completely disagree here. Diarmuid not only had higher stats, he has Master supporting him with healing/offensive magic at all times, and not one but two ways of neutralizing Gae Bolge - skill Saber used to reflect it and his mana-cancelling spear. That, and second NP he can use to deliver killing strike while keeping both of their primary NP ineffective, IMHO.

Nobody cares about Assassin.

I wonder why he was built into the grail at all, then :smallconfused:

So the decisevly better Servants are Rider, Archer and Saber (Unless you count Rin!Saber or Saber Alter). Caster could go either way though.

IMHO, both of these are trumped by Team Einzbern, or at least would be if not for Saber's stupidity.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-09, 06:51 PM

Rank A is required to deal damage to him in the first place… I was against the thing that over 9000 damage counts as 9 (or whatever greater than 1) deaths. But Nasu's world is… a weird place.

Yes it is, but even by Nasu-logic Bezerker's final takedowns in Fate and HF don't scan well. Really best to label them as arse pulls and in general not think about it too much. I more prefer ridiculously damaging being able to count multiple times myself over even more annoying possiblities.

(I feel an urge to put out a reminder that Rank and damage should not be confused in this case)

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-09, 06:59 PM

(I feel an urge to put out a reminder that Rank and damage should not be confused in this case)
Don't. I know that :}

Prime32

2012-01-09, 08:04 PM

Umm while I've only loosely been following this part of the convo its never been rendered as Nine Live Stealer in my recollection. And you seem to be taking erroneous conclusions from it under that name. Its not "stealing" lives or something, nothing I've seen gives it this powerThat's actually something else entirely (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#nineLivesStealer).

Well, she also killed more servants than the rest of them combined? :P

As for third, Kiritsugu's assistant?
Saber's record with fighting Servants is still much worse than Avenger.

And Maiya isn't a magus.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-09, 08:34 PM

Ah, this is what the internet warned me of. Power levels.

Carry on, I'm gonna go kill Gilgamesh with a mop in BMW.

Arakune

2012-01-09, 11:20 PM

Ah, this is what the internet warned me of. Power levels.

Carry on, I'm gonna go kill Gilgamesh with a mop in BMW.

If it's the right people, a mop is overkill.

SITB

2012-01-10, 01:50 AM

Pardon? :smallconfused:

Two points here:

A) Defense: Hercules was one-shotted by Gate attack. L. was attacked 3 times without effect, and Gilgamesh had to retreat. Unless Hercules can attack faster and stronger than anti-hero tailored weapons of GoB, it's really no contest.

B) Offense: Hercules - whacking with club. That's it. L. can simply grab a gun and shoot him apart, or, if we go non-cheesy way, draw his own Excalibur-like sword, and seeing he is basically Saber 2.0 beat Hercules without much problem.

If Hercules gets a lucky hit, maybe, but otherwise properly commanded L. will blast him to bits.

Errr, no. Not really.

A) Herc was defeated by a barrage of GoB which a long time and even then Gil had to use Enkidu to stop him. In F/Z Gil only retreated from the battle because his master forced him because Tokomoi didn't want t tip his hand and show all of Gil's power, and even then Gil didn't fight in full strength before being forced to retreat.

B) L can only killHerc if he uses Arodnight and even then it will only work once and then Herc beats him up. Remember God Hand? Any weapon that L happens to pick wouldn't harm Berserker.

At best L kills Berserker once and then dies.

Apart from the only important thing in Caster class, you mean? :smallamused:

Sure, Medea is better at magic, but seeing how she lost to Rin, it isn't saying much. BB's demons trump skeletons any day, his NP Caster's magic and NP, and his final attack trumps anything Medea had...

Rin beat up Caster in a physical battle. Which she was able to initiate only because Caster didn't take her seriously. Both summons are terrible and thus they only thing that matters is if Gilles summon pseudo-Cuthlhu, which he can't control or direct and can only summon to cause massive destruction.

Completely disagree here. Diarmuid not only had higher stats, he has Master supporting him with healing/offensive magic at all times, and not one but two ways of neutralizing Gae Bolge - skill Saber used to reflect it and his mana-cancelling spear. That, and second NP he can use to deliver killing strike while keeping both of their primary NP ineffective, IMHO.

Not really? F/SN had better stats, better NP and combat experience. Diarmuid can't stop Gae bolg no matter what, and if worse comes to worse F/SN Lancer can use magic to support himself.

I wonder why he was built into the grail at all, then :

Did you read the the actual novel?

There is no Mind of Steel ending in UBW, therefore it happens to HF::Shirou only. You know, you try to apply things that happen in one route ignoring the fact that character's situation depends on his overall actions. That's all.

EDIT: also, God Hod does not mention skin at all. Unless something was mentioned in HF itself that I missed.

That a really silly point, a similar situation could pop on in UBW and will be need to be resolved, saying that if it didn't happen in UBW then it has no place existing is silly. Shirou still hasn't confronted the fact that he will need to compromise his ideals one way or another and HF is about that.

Regarding God Hand: Read the description again, the skin holds the protective qualities. No skin means no defense.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-10, 02:59 AM

That a really silly point, a similar situation could pop on in UBW and will be need to be resolved, saying that if it didn't happen in UBW then it has no place existing is silly. Shirou still hasn't confronted the fact that he will need to compromise his ideals one way or another and HF is about that.
It's not. Otherwise you could say that if X hero in Y story would be in Z position he will not be X anymore and do something horrible C. You cannot magically appear in a situation out of the blue. Shirou's actions in HF leads to that, and that's his problem and only his alone. They are different between routes, guessing one's action by actions of another should not be done. You seem to think of UBW::Shirou's ideal as that of Mind of Steel Shirou one, it's not. They are different people. Even Archer is different from each other Shirou.

Regarding God Hand: Read the description again, the skin holds the protective qualities. No skin means no defense.

God Hand
Twelve Labors

A hidden ability.

Regenerates automatically, even when killed. There is a stock of eleven regenerations.

In other words, Berserker needs to be defeated twelve times to be eliminated.

Eldariel

2012-01-10, 03:14 AM

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-10, 03:32 AM

HF is one of the possible many answers to the questions posed by UBW and Fate. The bonus scene you get from all the tiger stamps mentions this.

Bonus scenes are out of the game. What's not in the game itself never happened. That's what I believe in.

Eldariel

2012-01-10, 03:36 AM

Bonus scenes are out of the game. What's not in the game itself never happened. That's what I believe in.

It's developer commentary on the game. Take that as you will.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-10, 03:37 AM

It's developer commentary on the game. Take that as you will.

And I will. The concept is called Death of the author, I think.

EDIT: I propose we move on something else in Nasuverse. Everyone stated their opinions and that's good enough to me. Fighting over who is right will not do any good here. It's your interpretation that matters anyway.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-10, 10:14 AM

Lifeson

2012-01-10, 10:51 AM

It's wrong that almost every time I look at a character in a work of fiction or learn about a particularly badass historical figure, my mind goes to what they'd be like as a Servant, right?

In before someone brings up the White Death as an Archer and/or Assassin yet again, although that might have been what started me on this.

Oh, good, my thoughts on summoning Gandalf as a Caster wouldn't be too bad then, would it.

On a lighter note of Nasuverse discussion, I've noticed Nasu likes his bright yellow rainjackets, and I think Saber and Ryougi Shiki wear the same one. Why the bright yellow rainjacket?

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 11:25 AM

It's wrong that almost every time I look at a character in a work of fiction or learn about a particularly badass historical figure, my mind goes to what they'd be like as a Servant, right?

In before someone brings up the White Death as an Archer and/or Assassin yet again, although that might have been what started me on this.

I can never settle what class I think would be best to summon Teddy Roosevelt.

Prime32

2012-01-10, 11:28 AM

It's wrong that almost every time I look at a character in a work of fiction or learn about a particularly badass historical figure, my mind goes to what they'd be like as a Servant, right?Of course not. Me, I figure Oda Nobunaga would have a Noble Phantasm which takes control of Bounded Fields and sets them on fire. :smalltongue:

In before someone brings up the White Death as an Archer and/or Assassin yet again, although that might have been what started me on this.For anyone asking "what's the White Death?", take your pick:

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5-real-life-soldiers-who-make-rambo-look-like-*****.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 11:36 AM

I absurdly want to see a Grail scenario with the White Death, Red Baron, and Desert Fox. Though that would need two Riders so its already pretty off the rails.

Prime32

2012-01-10, 11:41 AM

Speaking of Finns, any good material in the Kalevala?

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 11:43 AM

Speaking of Finns, any good material in the Kalevala?

Kullervo among others. Vainomenhoweveryouspellit if not taken as a god is more Gandalf then Gandalf

Eldariel

2012-01-10, 12:08 PM

Merlin as Caster could be interesting. Really, it's a pity there's 6 slots for warriors but only one for a magic user (though I guess many of the warriors can use magic too); be it as it may, myth has plenty of both. And the Casters in the shown wars are kinda random; Medea and Gille wouldn't be my first or second or third choice far as magicians from legend go.

Oh, and completely unrelated, Lifeson - Your avatar is awesome.

Kullervo among others. Vainomenhoweveryouspellit if not taken as a god is more Gandalf then Gandalf

Väinämöinen would indeed work. Louhi, the witch of the north, could also be up there. Given the nature of "power" in Kalevala, it's pretty well suited for caster-like presentation.

EDIT: Joukahainen came to mind as another option.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-10, 01:21 PM

I can never settle what class I think would be best to summon Teddy Roosevelt.

Rider, obviously.

I absurdly want to see a Grail scenario with the White Death, Red Baron, and Desert Fox. Though that would need two Riders so its already pretty off the rails.

You could probably cram Rommel into Assassin if you really wanted to, based on his tactics. He's used to working with crappy resources anyway.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 01:42 PM

You could probably cram Rommel into Assassin if you really wanted to, based on his tactics. He's used to working with crappy resources anyway.

Oooh that works. Now I'm only a few classes away from a crazy psuedo modern Grail War:

Saber: Jack Churchill
Archer: Simo Häyhä
Rider: Manfred von Richthofen
Caster: Nikolai Tesla
Assassin: Erwin Rommel

Now I'm just down a Berzerker and a Lancer. (Unless I move Mad Jack)

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-10, 01:51 PM

I'm trying to resist another Nazi suggestion for Lancer but Persona 2 and Spear of Destiny (it was a sequel to the first Wolfenstein 3D game) are making it really hard.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 01:56 PM

I'm trying to resist another Nazi suggestion for Lancer but Persona 2 and Spear of Destiny (it was a sequel to the first Wolfenstein 3D game) are making it really hard.

I've only got one on there knock yourself out. (Unless its umm Godwin violating)

Elder Tsofu

2012-01-10, 01:56 PM

Well, the hero summoned as Berserker doesn't have to be insane already does he? So any warrior type would be able to fit the role.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 02:03 PM

Well, the hero summoned as Berserker doesn't have to be insane already does he? So any warrior type would be able to fit the role.

They should at least have something plausible though, like a reputation for battlerage or a legendary temper or something. I was thinking of sticking Audie Murphy in there because he as a lovely edge of pure absurdity to him, like if Cap America had never got the Super Soldier serum and still went to war.

Prime32

2012-01-10, 02:10 PM

Well, the hero summoned as Berserker doesn't have to be insane already does he? So any warrior type would be able to fit the role.He needs to have gone mad in some sense at least once. Hercules qualifies because he killed his family while under the influence of hallucinogens or something.

Mikeavelli

2012-01-10, 02:14 PM

For Berserker, I submit "Mad Jack" Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill). From the Article:

Lieutenant Colonel John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming "Jack" Churchill, DSO & Bar, MC & Bar (16 September 1906 – 8 March 1996), nicknamed "Fighting Jack Churchill" and "Mad Jack", was a British soldier who fought throughout World War II armed with a longbow, arrows and a claymore. He once said "any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed."

And...

The following morning, one flanking attack was launched by 43 Commando with Churchill leading the elements from 40 Commando. The Partisans remained at the landing area. Only Churchill and six others managed to reach the objective. A mortar shell killed or wounded everyone but Churchill, who was playing "Will Ye No Come Back Again?" on his pipes as the Germans advanced.

And

Churchill was said to be unhappy with the sudden end of the war, saying: "If it wasn't for those damn Yanks, we could have kept the war going another 10 years."

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 02:23 PM

For Berserker, I submit "Mad Jack" Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill). From the Article:

What I referred to the problem then becomes filling Saber with someone while keeping everyone modern.

(Though fudging back to Meiji Era Japan would provide suitable options)

Mikeavelli

2012-01-10, 02:28 PM

Oh dear, already mentioned! Pardon, I wasn't reading your list carefully enough.

I've heard something about WW2 Japanese officers carrying swords into battle, are there any famous ones to be Saber?

How about Isoroku Yamamoto?

Lifeson

2012-01-10, 03:55 PM

Oh, and completely unrelated, Lifeson - Your avatar is awesome.

Only unrelated because Nasuverse discussions always become Fate/Whatever discussions. :smalltongue:

Elder Tsofu

2012-01-10, 04:01 PM

Little love for Tsukihime, although I'm also guilty for not bringing it up. :smallwink:

Eldariel

2012-01-10, 04:10 PM

Only unrelated because Nasuverse discussions always become Fate/Whatever discussions. :smalltongue:

Unrelated to that post, not the thread :smallwink:

Little love for Tsukihime, although I'm also guilty for not bringing it up. :smallwink:

I'm planning to but too many parallel discussions just cause the thread to grow unnecessarily complicated and we have plenty to go with Fate franchise still. :smalltongue: Though I'll say this - my favorite Type-Moon product is definitely Tsukihime, over Kara no Kyoukai and Fate. Mostly on the back of Arcueid being the most brilliant character ever envisioned.

Speaking of Fate, what's everyone's favorite path in FSN? I found the game very enjoyable in that the routes genuinely have very different feels. Logically, such options should be polarized by this.

EDIT: Idle observations:
Huh, I just realized that by defeating Berserker at exactly that juncture, Shiro saved Kirei and earned himself yet another world of pain in the end. Then again, I guess that's only fair since in that particular relationship it goes both ways, multiple times.

Lifeson

2012-01-10, 04:22 PM

Fair enough.

BUT GUIZE, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MORE CARNIVAL PHANTASM.
http://www.wakachan.org/fate/src/1325305692847.jpg

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-10, 04:52 PM

I've only got one on there knock yourself out. (Unless its umm Godwin violating)

If I go off the Persona 2 comment it is. Unless he's wearing sunglasses. And I think everyone but him in the Wolfenstein series is fictional, too...

I was thinking of Audie Murphy for Berserker for pretty much the reasons cited above, but it seems a little insulting. He was a far cry from crazy or even especially violent - he just had a tendency to find himself in insane and violent situations and get out of them alive despite the seeming impossibility of doing so. I'm not sure I can be much help here.

Incidentally, if we want to let Rommel rest in piece, I thought of a better Assassin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny)

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-10, 06:30 PM

If I go off the Persona 2 comment it is. Unless he's wearing sunglasses. And I think everyone but him in the Wolfenstein series is fictional, too...

I was thinking of Audie Murphy for Berserker for pretty much the reasons cited above, but it seems a little insulting. He was a far cry from crazy or even especially violent - he just had a tendency to find himself in insane and violent situations and get out of them alive despite the seeming impossibility of doing so. I'm not sure I can be much help here.

Incidentally, if we want to let Rommel rest in piece, I thought of a better Assassin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny)

When I heard Spear of Destiny... well that cuts down possibilities pretty drastically though going that route might well be the only possibility.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-10, 08:08 PM

Safe for Germany! (http://pixel2pixel.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/persona_2_hitler_sunglasses.png)

The-Mage-King

2012-01-11, 03:09 AM

It's wrong that almost every time I look at a character in a work of fiction or learn about a particularly badass historical figure, my mind goes to what they'd be like as a Servant, right?

Perfectly normal. Managed to work out stats for Simon the Digger, of all characters... Hell, I know of an entire thread (on a different forum, though) to do that. And most of another forum.

I absurdly want to see a Grail scenario with the White Death, Red Baron, and Desert Fox. Though that would need two Riders so its already pretty off the rails.

Eh. It's pretty much stated that the 4th and 5th wars are pretty odd, since they have the 7 "standard" classes. Hell, in the 3rd, two Sabers were summoned.

Only unrelated because Nasuverse discussions always become Fate/Whatever discussions. :smalltongue:

Should have guessed that it'd devolve into a Fate/Whatever thread after a few days. :smalltongue:

So, how 'bout dem Angel Notes? :smalltongue:

RE: Favorite Route in Fate-

UBW, if only for the fact that it effectively ends with two armories being thrown at each other.

Re: Carnival Phantasm-
Ah, good. Episode 9 is translated. Will watch later. 3AM where I live, and I've got class at 8:30. Can't wait for Fate/Prototype. :smalltongue:

Further RE: Anyone care to start suggesting fanfics? I found Ol' Velsper's "I Put on my Robe and Wizard Hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/IPutOnMyRobeAndWizardHat)" to be fairly good, and quite crackish, and... Well, it's what actually got me interested in the 'verse enough to read through Fate. Link is to the TVTropes page for the fic, BTW.

NeonBlack

2012-01-11, 06:13 AM

Further RE: Anyone care to start suggesting fanfics? I found Ol' Velsper's "I Put on my Robe and Wizard Hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/IPutOnMyRobeAndWizardHat)" to be fairly good, and quite crackish, and... Well, it's what actually got me interested in the 'verse enough to read through Fate. Link is to the TVTropes page for the fic, BTW.

...which reminds me that I have to finish reading that one some day.

I'm particularly fond of Andy Moczo's Chaos Theory (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6372400/1/Chaos_Theory) and Lunaludus Scribex's The World Without (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5282769/1/The_World_Without). The first makes some changes on Shirou's first meeting with Ilya and snowballs from there into, well, lots of crazy stuff. Dark and funny at the same time, plus lots of good action. The second follows up after Bad End 1, following the war after Shirou exits the stage and Saber has to find a new Master. Quite a bit darker, and that M rating is well earnt for the usual "mana dragon" reasons, so beware. Both are in progress, though, and both usually take a while between updates.

For something short, full of hilarious crack and completed just today, check out Moczo's and RadiantBeam's Shinderella (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7676709/1/Shinderella).

Lifeson

2012-01-11, 10:05 AM

So, how 'bout dem Angel Notes? :smalltongue:

Apparently, a character from Notes actually appears in a later episode of Carnival Phantasm. :smallcool: It gives me hope that one day, all of Nasu's creations will be fully-fledged and have animes and stuff.

Arakune

2012-01-11, 10:07 AM

Apparently, a character from Notes actually appears in a later episode of Carnival Phantasm. :smallcool: It gives me hope that one day, all of Nasu's creations will be fully-fledged and have animes and stuff.

Who appears? Venus?

Besides, if you squint your eyes you can find Ryougi Shiki on the first episode of carnival phantasm. You don't see her face, though.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-11, 10:25 AM

Eh. It's pretty much stated that the 4th and 5th wars are pretty odd, since they have the 7 "standard" classes. Hell, in the 3rd, two Sabers were summoned.

Well so help me its been a bit since I tracked that down but as far as I recall its a mention that the classes have varied over the years and not that you got multiple ones a cast. Given that it isn't fleshed out though I've sorted it into being apocryphal.

And the two Sabers were supposedly two versions of the same hero thanks to the Edelfelt using their Ore Scales sorcery talent. Thus both Saber and Saber Alter in F/HA or whatever.

That said the only reason the Nasuverse has rules is to bring them up to be broken by whomever is being described.

(Which oddly enough eventually led me to realize how the Nasuverse is probably the most Japanese series in existence. Someone's weird ability breaks the rules and isn't adequately explained... it can't be helped so move along and don't question why. Half or more of the weirdness is an application of Japanese cultural stoicism)

Arakune

2012-01-11, 12:18 PM

I'm under the impression none of the wars worked as intended, just that the forth and fifth had more civilian casualties than the rest thanks to the two caster classes running around unchecked and their douche masters.

And Kirei and Kiritsugu, apparently.

Eldariel

2012-01-11, 12:37 PM

Watching the FSN anime, I was pretty surprised to find out that they kept the start of the H-scene intact with very similar imagery, and then suddenly jumped into the spirit world sequence. A sensible omission for the rating considerations itself but to me it would make more sense to change the whole scene rather than start it the same and then move onto an unrelated scene randomly.

Also, some of the changes felt really weird; the very first encounter between Rin and Shiro in the school, instead of Shiro predicting and barely dodging a single projectile, had Rin walk to point blank range, somehow produce something akin to a bullet hell worth of Gandr Shots and miss every single one of them. Takes her competence down a few pegs.

Other than that I found the way Caster was handled to be quite successful...until she was unceremoniously killed off at random by Gilgamesh. If you put 3 episodes worth of effort into introducing caster, feels downright stupid to randomly kill her off. The type of ending from UBW would've been so much more rewarding.

And then there's the final fight with Saber eating what, 4 hits from Enuma Elish? And using Excalibur a few times where it should've been extremely impossible. Wasn't the scene from the VN awesome enough or what's up with the prolonging and needless (not to mention, impossible) repetition there? In the game it's a plot point that she can't guarantee she can even take one hit from Ea while offsetting it with Excalibur, and needs one to gauge its strength for her gambit. Meh. And somehow Shiro triggering Azoth managed to be graphically more badass in the VN than the anime...

Far as adaptation goes, I feel it did an alright work for Fate but it certainly could've done so much better at a few points.

Something that confused me, in Rin's ending there's this line:
The land below him is like a wasteland he once walked on. There is nothing here. There is nothing, as everything was blown away from the mountaintop.

----The battle has ended. The battle for the Holy Grail has ended, and the curtain is about to fall on his battle as well. He does not know how long it was. But the accumulated wish that that should have bound him forever is gone now. The end quickly permeates him and takes away his body's form.

Now, what exactly does the bolded part mean? At first I thought it meant Emiya's guardianship would end as the wish that made him one ended. And yet, two pages later it states "...But even if it ends that way, the already existing knight will forever be a guardian." So that would be illogical. Anyone give me a hand here? The only thing I can think of, could it refer to Emiya's wish to kill Shiro to release himself from the cycle?

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-11, 01:00 PM

Arakune

2012-01-11, 01:27 PM

There's a couple dozen ways you could read either of those lines, so I'll leave the technical details to people who have read the novel in full. Most likely, though...

Seeing Shirou's resolve has made him let go of the wish to kill him, yes, which was at least part of the reason he got summoned in a manner that should have been impossible in the first place. He's probably still stuck being a Counter Guardian, but presumably he accepts that now.

Except he is still trapped in a clean up job for humanity's sake, and will kill many more innocents over and over for all eternity. To put it simply, the core template of EMIYA will never be able to have peace.

If that piece of narration is implied to come from Rin, then she is simply wrong because Archer was simply putting a strong front for her. Sure he may have remembered why he got stuck in that job in the first place, but on the long run he didn't achieved anything, not even killing Shirou for some stress relief.

Rin on the other hand might not know her servant whole struggle literally has no meaning anymore, considering he will eventually forget/not care about the events of UBW True End, probably being summoned to another reality were he managed to kill Emiya Shirou but was still stuck as a CG and all.

There's no reason the scar anymore the girl for life, and telling her that her boyfriend/apprentice will eventually sell his soul to the devil and become like him.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-11, 01:37 PM

Arakune

2012-01-11, 01:46 PM

I dunno.

In Unlimited Blade Works, Shirou dedicates himself to chasing his ideal regardless of consequences. If he can't achieve it, so what. The importance of an ideal is something to aspire to. Hearing this from his "old" self clearly inspires Archer, or at least affects him enough for him to concede defeat. I can see this in one of two ways:

The Shirou Emiya of the Unlimited Blade Works universe, having his mind in order and expecting the worst from the beginning, does not become Archer or Kiritsugu, but a less bitter individual with the same aspiration and a cynical girlfriend to balance him out. Archer recognizes this and accepts it as his own victory, since he did prevent Shirou Emiya from becoming him.

Alternatively, Shirou will still become Archer, but Archer realizes upon looking back at and fighting his younger self that he knew what he was getting into and, given everything he knows and has learned, wouldn't actually do anything different, and thus gets over his self-hatred.

Maybe. That's what I read into it, anyway.

That's not the point.

The point is that, no matter what kind of conclusion Archer reached during UBW, he is still trapped in his duty and due to ridiculously long time, eventually what he learned will be either forgotten or remembered with extreme bitterness, if he remembers at all.

On the other hand, if Rin don't hold Emiya Shirou on a very short leash, even if he don't become dillusioned by his ideals, so long he makes a deal with the world he will be Archer 2.0 at some point, and even if this Shirou don't become one, EMIYA will always be a counter guardian.

Archer can't "stop" Shirou from becoming a counter guardian, what he learns might or not go back with him after UBW giving him some peace of mind for some time. In the end he couldn't achieve anything he really wanted except being beaten left and right before going back to his self-imposed hell.

He really didn't wanted to say to the woman (that will grow to be) he loves that "Archer" is forever dammed and will probably forget this UBW conversation ever existed, or will be so broken again that will simply not care.

Edit: Only way to have it's contract partially negated is by worship. While being worshiped the "Heroic Spirit" category have precedence. On the other hand, once it stops being worshiped it is back to giant nuke.

Just because EMIYA is the more know "unknow" CG, that doesn't mean there are other forgotten heroes that are on kill bot mode, or people just waiting to be completely forgotten before becoming kill bots themselves.

Eldariel

2012-01-11, 01:47 PM

Except he is still trapped in a clean up job for humanity's sake, and will kill many more innocents over and over for all eternity. To put it simply, the core template of EMIYA will never be able to have peace.

If that piece of narration is implied to come from Rin, then she is simply wrong because Archer was simply putting a strong front for her. Sure he may have remembered why he got stuck in that job in the first place, but on the long run he didn't achieved anything, not even killing Shirou for some stress relief.

Rin on the other hand might not know her servant whole struggle literally has no meaning anymore, considering he will eventually forget/not care about the events of UBW True End, probably being summoned to another reality were he managed to kill Emiya Shirou but was still stuck as a CG and all.

There's no reason the scar anymore the girl for life, and telling her that her boyfriend/apprentice will eventually sell his soul to the devil and become like him.

That was part was Archer POV. It comes after Shiro engraves his ideal and opts to pass out while Rin rushes to talk with Archer before Archer disappears. The narration occurs right before the talk between Rin and Archer.

Arakune

2012-01-11, 01:50 PM

That was part was Archer POV. It comes after Shiro engraves his ideal and opts to pass out while Rin rushes to talk with Archer before Archer disappears. The narration occurs right before the talk between Rin and Archer.

Then it looks more like his bind as a Servant.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-11, 02:39 PM

Its doubtful anything at the end of UBW applies to more then the quasi-copy of Archer we meet. As the summoned Servants are at the end of the day not the actual heroes that are out in Akasha on the Throne of Heroes or whatever.

So the description is just a glorified note that this particular incarnation of Archer found peace with himself and can "die" that way though where if anywhere he goes is an open question.

Incidentally the solution for the problem of Shirou being a broken person seems to be: he needs to get laid, often. If UBW and HF are anything to go by.

Lifeson

2012-01-11, 04:44 PM

Of course, if we were to actually ask Nasu, we'd still never know because the man's infamous for shrugging off all sorts of questions like that. :smallwink:

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-11, 05:02 PM

Of course, if we were to actually ask Nasu, we'd still never know because the man's infamous for shrugging off all sorts of questions like that. :smallwink:

If the answer is that Shirou needs to get laid you are probably right. The other one though he'd totally answer.

Eldariel

2012-01-11, 11:58 PM

Incidentally the solution for the problem of Shirou being a broken person seems to be: ... If UBW and HF are anything to go by.

*chuckle* There's the answer, then. Though I think he's more the type to require a mental than a physical connection, if the scene with Rin is anything to go by. All that talk about not wanting it to be a mere contract. :smalltongue:

Btw, it's weird how none of the Archers used in the series are actual archers. Both pretty golden boy and Archer shoot swords at people (well, Archer has skills with archery but no especially potent bow).

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 09:58 AM

The theory I've heard for Garcher is that it's all a big metaphor based on the Japanese art of kyuudo and its philosophical elements of the elimination of the self in pursuit of a singular goal and blah blah blah also he shoots/throws swords at people.

Likewise, Gil uses his swords like a machine gun, which is a ranged weapon. Also his Unique in like at least three Civilization games is an Archer-variant, which has to count for something.

At least Fate/Extra finally gets an actual archer with a bow NP and everything.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-12, 10:01 AM

Well we've seen from Fate/Prototype that the Archers started as one characters and Gil was somewhat more archer-y

But yeah I would like for one of them to have preferred the bow as a primary choice.

Prime32

2012-01-12, 10:51 AM

The theory I've heard for Garcher is that it's all a big metaphor based on the Japanese art of kyuudo and its philosophical elements of the elimination of the self in pursuit of a singular goal and blah blah blah also he shoots/throws swords at people.Kyuudo was discussed in one scene, wasn't it?

Well we've seen from Fate/Prototype that the Archers started as one characters and Gil was somewhat more archer-y
I'm not so sure. Archetype Saber (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/File:Archetype_Saver.png) was already redesigned for Prototype, so there's no telling what the original Archer looked like.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 10:58 AM

Kyuudo was discussed in one scene, wasn't it?

Like hell I'm reading this thing in detail. Shirou and Sakura were in the archery/kyuudo club, at least, so I assume that was brought up at some point after the very beginning of the game, if only to demonstrate a theme.

Eldariel

2012-01-12, 11:13 AM

Like hell I'm reading this thing in detail. Shirou and Sakura were in the archery/kyuudo club, at least, so I assume that was brought up at some point after the very beginning of the game, if only to demonstrate a theme.

Yeah, there's at least that scene about Shiro and why he left the archery club; about how he can envision the target and only ever missed once, and that was out of his own volition. It at least goes through the 8 steps and some such. I don't remember off-hand which path has the most in-depth discussion though; I wanna say Heaven's Feel but I'm not sure. Every path mentions it at least in the passing but I recall there's only one with an in-depth scene.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-12, 11:27 AM

Mr.Bookworm

2012-01-12, 11:31 AM

Mhmm. It also gets brought up in the context of projection. Shirou runs through steps sort-of similar to kyuudo when he projects a blade.

Btw, it's weird how none of the Archers used in the series are actual archers. Both pretty golden boy and Archer shoot swords at people (well, Archer has skills with archery but no especially potent bow).

5th War Archer is totally an archer, although I wish he had actually used his bow more.

...actually, why doesn't he use his bow more? Ataraxia shows that he can hit targets from five klicks away with an attack that's almost unblockable. You'd think Archer would be a little more pragmatic.

Eldariel

2012-01-12, 11:47 AM

I think its an optional scene in Fate and UBW (and possibly HF), Shirou can wander by the dojo and gets to thinking about it.

Which is why we can't remember where since its not one that you have to go through.

This is where the Scene Skip option becomes inconvenient; I've watched every scene in the game but most only once and if it was indeed open in Fate, I must've watched it the first playthrough and never again so it's already faint in my memory.

Though I do recall there are different versions of it. I think it does get brought up more than once. Hell, I'm almost tempted to just watch through the few again.

5th War Archer is totally an archer, although I wish he had actually used his bow more.

...actually, why doesn't he use his bow more? Ataraxia shows that he can hit targets from five klicks away with an attack that's almost unblockable. You'd think Archer would be a little more pragmatic.

'cause he's not an archer. He's a maker. He's even referred to as "the blacksmith hero". His greatest power is creating noble phantasms; he's more than competent at fighting but the reason he can beat other heroic spirits is Unlimited Blade Works (in his mindscape and the Reality Marble itself).

Also, you don't get epic fight scenes from someone shooting someone with a bow, so he only shoots people with bow in situations where it works (Berserker vs. Saber; you get the fight scene outta that so he can use his bow just fine - and Caster, who's a ranged combatant anyways, can fight with the bow just fine). So he's mostly made to use his swords. That and he does seem to get engaged at short ranges pretty frequently which is probably inconvenient for bows and given he has absolutely no trouble with melee combat, I guess he just does what he sees best.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 11:52 AM

5th War Archer is totally an archer, although I wish he had actually used his bow more.

...actually, why doesn't he use his bow more? Ataraxia shows that he can hit targets from five klicks away with an attack that's almost unblockable. You'd think Archer would be a little more pragmatic.

Generally speaking, if I recall correctly, he's either gimped by early Saber ownage, following Rin around and saving her ass (which necessitates melee dynamic entry), and/or having IDEALS duels with Shirou. Plus he tries to snipe Shirou once and completely misses, so I guess he gave up after one try.

Plus the whole sword fetish thing.

Eldariel

2012-01-12, 11:54 AM

Generally speaking, if I recall correctly, he's either gimped by early Saber ownage, following Rin around and saving her ass (which necessitates melee dynamic entry), and/or having IDEALS duels with Shirou. Plus he tries to snipe Shirou once and completely misses, so I guess he gave up after one try.

Plus the whole sword fetish thing.

Didn't he try to snipe Saber? I mean, yeah, same goal what with making Shiro an easy victim and all but the only time he tried to shoot Shiro and failed AFAIR was in UBW after Caster was defeated and Saber was freed.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 11:56 AM

Didn't he try to snipe Saber? I mean, yeah, same goal what with making Shiro an easy victim and all but the only time he tried to shoot Shiro and failed AFAIR was in UBW after Caster was defeated and Saber was freed.

I'm thinking of the early fight (I think at the end of the initial Saber vs. Berserker) where Archer tries to hit both Shirou and Saber with a Broken Phantasm in the graveyard. In UBW, at least, Shirou notes Archer was aiming at him.

Mr.Bookworm

2012-01-12, 12:08 PM

Plus the whole sword fetish thing.

Incidentally, I totally misread "I am the bone of my sword" the first time I saw that line. I am apparently like five years old, because that made me laugh.

But anyway, Archer is an archer in the definitional sense of the word, even if he runs around like Drizzt most of the time.

Eldariel

2012-01-12, 12:54 PM

I'm thinking of the early fight (I think at the end of the initial Saber vs. Berserker) where Archer tries to hit both Shirou and Saber with a Broken Phantasm in the graveyard. In UBW, at least, Shirou notes Archer was aiming at him.

That's only in the movie, no (where, btw, Archer was stated to have also risked hurting Rin so it's total bull****)? In the game, Rin and Shiro are some ways away when Rin receives Archer's warning (and Shiro senses the intent to kill); seems illogical that he'd truly try for him too since, while he did warn Rin to move further away, the two already at a somewhat safe range. Though all that's actually said is "He's smiling as if to tell me he wasn't aiming just as Berserker."

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 01:10 PM

That's only in the movie, no (where, btw, Archer was stated to have also risked hurting Rin so it's total bull****)? In the game, Rin and Shiro are some ways away when Rin receives Archer's warning (and Shiro senses the intent to kill); seems illogical that he'd truly try for him too since, while he did warn Rin to move further away, the two already at a somewhat safe range. Though all that's actually said is "He's smiling as if to tell me he wasn't aiming just as Berserker."

Yeah, I guess I conflated the summary I read ("Let's Play" implies gameplay) and the movie somewhat. My mistake.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-12, 02:32 PM

This is where the Scene Skip option becomes inconvenient; I've watched every scene in the game but most only once and if it was indeed open in Fate, I must've watched it the first playthrough and never again so it's already faint in my memory.

Though I do recall there are different versions of it. I think it does get brought up more than once. Hell, I'm almost tempted to just watch through the few again.

Yeah same thing I know its optional but I think I only got around to it once. I know its an optional thing because it follows Shirou choosing where to go but I can't remember where. Plus Fate and UBW share so much to begin with. Plus I've got the anime merging in there too just for extra fun.

I can't remember how many routes for example you can have an early encounter between Kouzuki and Saber where she notes his insanely natural way of walking.

'cause he's not an archer. He's a maker. He's even referred to as "the blacksmith hero". His greatest power is creating noble phantasms; he's more than competent at fighting but the reason he can beat other heroic spirits is Unlimited Blade Works (in his mindscape and the Reality Marble itself).

Also, you don't get epic fight scenes from someone shooting someone with a bow, so he only shoots people with bow in situations where it works (Berserker vs. Saber; you get the fight scene outta that so he can use his bow just fine - and Caster, who's a ranged combatant anyways, can fight with the bow just fine). So he's mostly made to use his swords. That and he does seem to get engaged at short ranges pretty frequently which is probably inconvenient for bows and given he has absolutely no trouble with melee combat, I guess he just does what he sees best.

I think there's a much simpler reason that has to do with who he is at the core. We may all be GAR for Archer but he is allowed his idiocies.

Incidentally, I totally misread "I am the bone of my sword" the first time I saw that line. I am apparently like five years old, because that made me laugh.

I think everyone did. Engrish is so lovely.

Eldariel

2012-01-12, 02:48 PM

I can't remember how many routes for example you can have an early encounter between Kouzuki and Saber where she notes his insanely natural way of walking.

Yeah, that one's on UBW/Solo when you go to school and Saber forces herself along and you get to show her one thing. Showing her the student council room brings up that scene.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-14, 02:07 AM

BMW update: **** the skill point on mission 33. **** it to hell. I'll get the true ending on a new game+ when I can spend millions of BP on my Servants so they can two-shot Assassin.

In lighter news, Love Love Tenkyoken.

The-Mage-King

2012-01-14, 03:08 AM

So...

Just watched the sub of Carnival Phantasm Ep 9.

...What.

Just... What. At Rider (A+ Ranked Riding!), Assassin (False), and... Everything.

Also, poor Lancer. Poor, poor, Lancer. Guess that's what comes of having E-ranked Luck in the gag series.

MLai

2012-01-14, 06:44 AM

Hi everyone new guy here (My hello everybody post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12529357&postcount=916)).

I've been meaning to lurk until I finished reading all the really interesting threads in GitP forums, but this Type_Moon thread caught my attention especially, because I'd like to ask you guys to read my related massive-crossover fan-webcomic and give me your feedback.

I'm not just spamming my webcomic and leaving. I'm currently still lurking and reading threads.

BTW, the fan-webcomic's only Type_Moon character is Saber, so if you're one of those Nasu-fans who don't like Saber (entirely understandable), you may not wish to read my comic.

FIGHT 2 (http://www.drunkduck.com/FIGHT_2/)

Incidentally if you skim the above and like it, you'll probably want to read the #1 (at least the first 2 chapters) to get more details on the story background.

FIGHT (http://www.drunkduck.com/FIGHT/)
FIGHT Cast (http://www.drunkduck.com/FIGHT_Cast/)

1. I try to keep true to Saber's character, but I don't care about her "power levels" etc. This is Saber from when she's a normal living human, anyways. Nil superpowers, aside from having her famous sword (and something else).

2. You'll notice I do something odd with her speech. It's Middle English. I was rusty at it for the first 2 chapters, and the result felt like Middle Engrish... but I (she) become much more fluent with it after that.

3. There was some controversy with chapter 6. A few folks felt it was forced, or creepy, or awkward, or unnecessary, or Woman In Refrigerator cliche. I could only say "Wait and see." It's not just a throw-away eroge itch-scratch.

So please give me feedback/critique/suggestions/etc if you read it! :smallbiggrin: Some of my story ideas came from reader informed feedback! You can PM me here; as I said I'm not just spamming and leaving.

Now I'm off to read Blade vs Buffy! :smallsmile:

NeonBlack

2012-01-14, 08:52 AM

Prime32

2012-01-14, 09:05 AM

FIGHT

One comment - Saber can't cross a river because she can't swim?

“I don't mind, but......Even if my chariot doesn't need road to travel on, Saber, how do you plan to attack the enemy in the river?”

Being asked thus by Rider, this time it was Saber's turn to grin.

“This body of mine has received divine protection from the lady of the lake. Whatever the water is, there is nothing which can stop my advance.”

[...]

The shiny greaves hit the water surface, and silver splashes scattered in brilliance. But, the tips of her toes did not sink. With hardness identical to a ground, the water Saber stepped on accepted her sprint. It was just the miracle which could happen to the king due to the blessing of the spirit of the lake.

MLai

2012-01-14, 09:17 AM

I have a question about Diarmuid(sp?). No I haven't read F/Z. I mean to watch the anime very soon (looks like the production quality's really good?).

This is just some amorous youth who Finn Mac Cool hunted down and killed in cold jealous rage...

1. How the heck did he get into the Throne of Heroes???
2. Where did he get spears? Nevermind magical spears. It's not as if he ever put up a fight after Finn tracked him down.
3. Does the story actually address this discrepancy? Or does Nasu expect us to just believe that he's a hero who can even stand near L. and not faint, and that's that?

Unless Nasu actually knows more about Celtic myth than me (regarding Finn) and I missed something really big.
=======================================

@ Prime32:

The Saber in my fan-comic is not "Saber," but Artoria Pendragon. Since King Arthur never walked on water, she doesn't either.
And IIRC, Saber can't swim worth a lick.

Prime32

2012-01-14, 09:20 AM

1. How the heck did he get into the Throne of Heroes???Every member of the Fianna was a badass, and he was one of the top guys, with his own stories. IIRC he and two others defeated all the armies of Britain by themselves and kidnapped the prince (because the prince stole Fionn's dog).

As for the spears, their names are "Yellow Spear" and "Red Spear". I have no idea what they're supposed to be based on.
EDIT: Wikipedia says he had two swords called "The Great Fury" and "The Little Fury".

MLai

2012-01-14, 09:30 AM

I guess that's what happens when the thing you're most famous for after death, is royally pissing off your legendary king... That's all I remembered regarding Diarmuid, and then a novel I read cemented that.

Ok, Diarmuid = badass warrior. I'll swallow that. Should make watching F/Z more enjoyable now.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-14, 11:31 AM

I just want to comment that that webcomic has extraordinarily good art, and Saber (well, Artuoria, I guess, if this is her as a mortal, not a heroic spirit) is appropriately adorable.

That isn't Middle English, though. It's modern British English with plenty of antiquated turns of phrase thrown in. We wouldn't be able to read Middle English without translation notes.

Every member of the Fianna was a badass, and he was one of the top guys, with his own stories. IIRC he and two others defeated all the armies of Britain by themselves and kidnapped the prince (because the prince stole Fionn's dog).

Irish heroes are freaking awesome.

MLai

2012-01-14, 11:50 AM

I just want to comment that that webcomic has--
Thanks!

That isn't Middle English, though. It's modern British English with plenty of antiquated turns of phrase thrown in. We wouldn't be able to read Middle English without translation notes.
AFAIK after studying it, Middle English is exactly "modern English with plenty of antiquated phrases/grammar" except with completely different pronunciations and spelling. Basically the same words, except said and written differently, for example "drought" is "droghte."

Therefore I didn't feel it suspends too much disbelief if I simply change the old spelling to modern spelling, while keeping the grammatical idiosyncracies intact. It's basically what modern translations of Canterbury Tales have done.

The suspension comes from other characters actually understanding by ear, what she's saying.

Irish heroes are freaking awesome.
And prone to much exaggeration.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-14, 11:57 AM

Thanks!

AFAIK after studying it, Middle English is exactly "modern English with plenty of antiquated phrases/grammar" except with completely different pronunciations and spelling. Basically the same words, except said and written differently, for example "drought" is "droghte."

Therefore I didn't feel it suspends too much disbelief if I simply change the old spelling to modern spelling, while keeping the grammatical idiosyncracies intact. It's basically what modern translations of Canterbury Tales have done.

The suspension comes from other characters actually understanding by ear, what she's saying.

Hm, I was a computer science student and not an English student, so I'll take your word for it. I always noticed the spelling/vocabulary differences more than the grammatical differences anyway and, indeed, it's much easier to understand by reading it out loud.

Reading your cast page and noting that you're going with the "Sarmatian" version of Arthur's backstory, though, Middle English is still an anachronism for her (smileyface).

And prone to much exaggeration.

Well yeah, that's what legends are.

MLai

2012-01-14, 12:29 PM

Reading your cast page and noting that you're going with the "Sarmatian" version of Arthur's backstory, though, Middle English is still an anachronism for her
Well I hope this doesn't count too much as off-topic since it's about King Arthur...

Basically, Nasu's Saber-Artoria is strictly the Malory literary Arthur, who exists in a Middle Ages neverland and would therefore speak Middle English without being anachronistic. Malory never pretends to have a historically consistent Middle Ages setting. His King Arthur battles Romans as if Arthur is in Roman Britain, yet everyone rides around in plate armour as if it's the Middle Ages.

So since Malory felt free to fuse Roman Britain with the Middle Ages to create his fantasy setting, I did the same for Artoria. Her biography puts her in Roman Britain, but what she's wearing and what she's speaking can only come from a fantasy Middle Ages setting.

While I don't think the Sarmatian hypothesis is any more valid than other guesses at the historical Arthur, the idea of it fit Artoria nicely, and I had a liking for the idea of the extinct Caucasian horse peoples of Europe. Only Mongols and Huns ever get any limelight as master horsemen cultures, and here are these LOL white ppl who once lived by the horse just as well. The idea that 3 extinct cultures (Roman Britain, British Celts, and Sarmatian) converged at a single point, in a single person, for 1 last shining moment in history before disappearing for all time... pretty romantic.

Eldariel

2012-01-14, 02:43 PM

AFAIK after studying it, Middle English is exactly "modern English with plenty of antiquated phrases/grammar" except with completely different pronunciations and spelling. Basically the same words, except said and written differently, for example "drought" is "droghte."

Yeah. Modern English still has plenty of words spelled in their Elizabethan guise; more major differences come in terms of pronunciation. The word "knight" is still spelled identically but the pronunciation has lost both, the "k" and the "gh" (far as I'm aware, its original pronunciation had the "ch" sound from "loch"). The "ough" construct is another such case. As such, modern English spelling really works quite well depending on the exact era one is aiming for.

So since Malory felt free to fuse Roman Britain with the Middle Ages to create his fantasy setting, I did the same for Artoria. Her biography puts her in Roman Britain, but what she's wearing and what she's speaking can only come from a fantasy Middle Ages setting.

Isn't the current theory that there have been two King Arthurs (Arturius or something during the roman era, and then Arthus during the Middle Ages) and their myths intertwined?

EDIT: Yeah, I didn't quite get to reading the actual comic yet.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-14, 04:33 PM

Isn't the current theory that there have been two King Arthurs (Arturius or something during the roman era, and then Arthus during the Middle Ages) and their myths intertwined?

Umm no not precisely that.

The problem is that there are extremely few records of post-Roman Britain so few that its considered only a very very loose maybe that there was an "Arthur" as a warlord and soldier/commander in the period. Even the Battle of Badon Hill has so little data on it though it may not have happened.

Whatever this kernel was or how accurate it was only the seed but later gained the entirely fictional expansion ex nihilo first in Welsh legend and then beyond, particularly the entire supporting cast except maybe Merlin who was a separate legend. However this all is basically entirely fictional.

One could probably argue various literary influences though, like Charlemagne.

MLai

2012-01-14, 09:25 PM

Prime32

2012-01-14, 09:35 PM

"Metric buttload of mana" was an ability that Saber had in life, right (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_%28Fate/stay_night%29#Abilities)?

MLai

2012-01-14, 10:35 PM

@ Prisma 32:
Yeah it's still there. Doesn't make her a wizard (or Red Mage), though. It does get addressed later on in my comics.

I skimmed thru that wiki page... Her name should be spelled Artoria which is the proper translated Roman spelling. Not Arturia. And yeah I also didn't go with her wiki biography or the Malory story of her origins. But it only really affected the Cast page.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-14, 11:35 PM

Yeah in terms of purely history/anthropology, the only thing known about Arthur as non-fiction is simply that he might have existed.

However (and this is another hypothesis trying to indirectly support his existence) what is known is that unlike other major cultures which got replaced/absorbed by an invading culture (the Saxons), the Romano-Brits left nothing of themselves behind. No fusion of cultures here. So it's hypothesized that this is because the Romano-Brits (led by Arthur) fought so hard so long and so mightily against the inexorable Saxons, that eventually nothing of them was left for peaceful integration. As a culture they had to be completely destroyed and scattered, before the Saxons could move in.

Yeah, though "historically" Saber is at least as legit as most of the other Servants, considering Heracles for one. Ironically her being a girl is probably the most plausible specific twist though... Ex-CALIBUR, plate mail, and Avalon heck no. And Invisible Air is Nasu's own not-logic (as opposed to Nasulogic) at its finest.

Lancelot on the other hand is blatantly and obviously fictional. Yet in true irony is totally a legit Servant... while poor poor Assassin is just a fictional fake composite for all of being more plausible.

On a different note so help me I just read or heard a couple days ago on some genetic studies that are now showing that Brits really are still the Britons. And that while certainly the Germanic peoples created a linguistic, political, and presumably cultural invasion fewer of the people as a population were displaced then was believed.

MLai

2012-01-15, 01:22 AM

Yeah, though "historically" Saber is at least as legit as most of the other Servants, considering Heracles for one.... while poor poor Assassin is just a fictional fake composite for all of being more plausible.
Yes I just don't understand Nasu's logic there, on several levels.

(1) In reading this story, the reader would already have taken in the conceit that mythological heroes are real (albeit dead and here as ghosts). Therefore, why go to such lengths describing Sasake Kojiro as FAKE, when you have characters like Medusa?

(2) On top of that, Kojiro is 1 of the few Heroic Spirits with the most chance of being non-fictional. The guy has statues in his home province, for crying out loud. There are official gov't records of his life, his school, his duel with Musashi, etc. Yes some accounts are conflicting, but that's merely the specifics of what age he was and how he was killed etc. How can Nasu, a Jpnese author, stand there and say Sasake Kojiro is fictional???

I can only surmise that he did this so that Jpnese readers won't get into an uproar when he's defeated by a white chick.

On a different note so help me I just read or heard a couple days ago on some genetic studies that are now showing that Brits really are still the Britons.... fewer of the people as a population were displaced then was believed.
Sometimes a civilization collapses so completely, that when the invaders come in to set up house they find there's almost no pieces left to pick up and build upon. I always had the feeling that that's what happened in Roman Britain. Like an industry town after the factories/mines dried up and left. A sense of desolation and decline everywhere you go.

As for how that movie King Arthur depicted the Saxons... as a merciless horde bent on Nazi-esque wholesale slaughter... I don't buy that. The Saxons had no motive for ethnic cleansing. The ideology of racial superiority/inferiority didn't exist yet, and the Saxons aren't monotheistic fanatics. Saxons are just people (with big swords).

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-15, 10:37 PM

Yes I just don't understand Nasu's logic there, on several levels.

(1) In reading this story, the reader would already have taken in the conceit that mythological heroes are real (albeit dead and here as ghosts). Therefore, why go to such lengths describing Sasake Kojiro as FAKE, when you have characters like Medusa?

(2) On top of that, Kojiro is 1 of the few Heroic Spirits with the most chance of being non-fictional. The guy has statues in his home province, for crying out loud. There are official gov't records of his life, his school, his duel with Musashi, etc. Yes some accounts are conflicting, but that's merely the specifics of what age he was and how he was killed etc. How can Nasu, a Jpnese author, stand there and say Sasake Kojiro is fictional???

I can only surmise that he did this so that Jpnese readers won't get into an uproar when he's defeated by a white chick.

I inferr though do not have anything to confirm that presumably being a lot more well known to a Japanese audience was the reason chosen to subvert his reality as the twist. To make a broader point about how legends can be twisted, in this case by combining people that were unrelated, where it would be least expected. That said yeah its patently unfair.

Sometimes a civilization collapses so completely, that when the invaders come in to set up house they find there's almost no pieces left to pick up and build upon. I always had the feeling that that's what happened in Roman Britain. Like an industry town after the factories/mines dried up and left. A sense of desolation and decline everywhere you go.

Well yeah but my point was that as I understand it the previous theory was that in the post-Roman period the Britons as people were displaced by the Saxons, so that those living in England today wouldn't share ancestry with say those living there in the post-Roman period. This based off certain linguistics and records, like how there Brittany in France. And that if the genetics are accurate, in actuality the population interbred/lived with the Saxons and only smaller number (probably elites) were physically displaced in contrast to what was previously believed.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-16, 11:10 AM

Well, in Nasuland, magic, vampires, gods, parallel universes and little girls that turn into giant cannons wielded by spice-obsessed nuns are all real, scientific things. Hence all the mythological figures in F/SN that were "real" in this fantasy setting. There's just still some things that are still not true, like Miyamoto Musashi's Great Rival and Vlad III Tepes being a vampire (even though vampires do exist, Dracula did not).

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-16, 01:27 PM

There's just still some things that are still not true, like Miyamoto Musashi's Great Rival and Vlad III Tepes being a vampire (even though vampires do exist, Dracula did not).

I like how /Apocrypha pseudo-canon Vlad has an NP that turns him into a Dead Apostle.

(Also Night of Wallachia)

Eldariel

2012-01-16, 02:07 PM

So, I was just reading FSN again and realized how much of the early events have significance that doesn't become apparent until later, or even until a different path. For instance, it took me forever to realize that the blondie you see in front of Matou house who was "asking Sakura for directions" was actually Gilgamesh.

Or the part where Sakura asks Shirou if Shirou was adopted and "weren't there a lot of things you didn't like?" First playthrough I barely registered the wording of the question; now I realized that obviously she's asking because of her terrible life after adoption into Matou family.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-16, 08:02 PM

I had watched the anime series before nabbing the games so I didn't have that particular one from the prelude.

But Sakura.... whooo boy Sakura.

Arakune

2012-01-16, 09:14 PM

I had watched the anime series before nabbing the games so I didn't have that particular one from the prelude.

But Sakura.... whooo boy Sakura.

Now with 100% more worms due to Fate/Zero anime.

On a different note, Lancer will probably die for the last time in the next carnival phantasm.

MLai

2012-01-17, 10:06 AM

I took a skim of Apocrypha's Servants... didn't like... so UNINSPIRED.

1. Every single one of them look identically generic.... basically like they're all out of some JRPG or Asian MMO. Sure, FSN Servants still don't look like they're dressed in historically-accurate clothing, but dammit at least they had some historical inspiration to them! The Apocrypha Servants are basically just a bunch of Jpnese mangaka deciding to run willy-nilly with sex changes and MMO costumes, completely destroying any gravitas in the designs. :smallconfused:

It's like if Apocrypha designed Hercules Berserker, he would have been a bishounen scrawny teenage guy with long white hair and crazy clothes. Just like the rest of them. :smallannoyed:

2. About the only inspired Servant is little Jack The Ripper, and she looks best in her "orphan in rags" look. If she just looks like that as a Servant, maybe with a few changes, it would've been perfect. Instead the artist primped her up in some sort of Xenogear Lolita costume which completely destroys the image of "psychotic child serial killer." :smallmad:

3. And the random sex changes... Jesus Christ, just because King Arthur had a sex change doesn't mean ANYONE can have it! Jack makes sense because no one knew who she was, but Sir Francis Drake?!? REALLY??? If you're so hard up for a female pirate, why don't you just research for a REAL female pirate? They exist!!! :smallfurious:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-17, 10:13 AM

Francisca Drake actually made it into Fate/Extra. She seems fairly badass.

Also, I heard a rumor that she's actually Queen Elizabeth moonlighting as a pirate.

Arakune

2012-01-17, 10:44 AM

Francisca Drake actually made it into Fate/Extra. She seems fairly badass.

Also, I heard a rumor that she's actually Queen Elizabeth moonlighting as a pirate.

It's both apparently since they looked so alike when living.

As for Fate/Apocrypha being like some MMO... that's right, since they were from a canceled MMO.

MLai

2012-01-17, 10:47 AM

Also, I heard a rumor that she's actually Queen Elizabeth moonlighting as a pirate.
http://www.fourmums.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/headdesk-2.jpg

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-17, 11:03 AM

Stop expecting sane things from Nasu. Seriously.

Prime32

2012-01-17, 11:27 AM

Francisca Drake actually made it into Fate/Extra. She seems fairly badass.Francis Drake wasn't in Apocrypha to begin with. Also, Extra!Saber is the weirdest Servant ever (spoilers)Emperor Nero was a woman, who was also a swordmaster and coincidentally looked and dressed identically to Mordred? Not to mention there's an omake where she celebrates Christmas.Though Extra!Caster seems neat.

And the Fate/Prototype Servants look weirder than the Apocrypha ones to me.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-17, 11:53 AM

I've got no broad objections to the Apocrypha designs, though many little bits get a shake of my head. Looking at you Spartacus, your visual design is terrible no matter how appropriate. And Joan's NP, hurr hurr hurr what?

On balance though I'd say better then the Extra servants, though not on par with F/SN and Zero. Only interesting design in Extra to me was playable Caster.

Arakune

2012-01-17, 12:59 PM

Francis Drake wasn't in Apocrypha to begin with. Also, Extra!Saber is the weirdest Servant ever (spoilers)Emperor Nero was a woman, who was also a swordmaster and coincidentally looked and dressed identically to Mordred? Not to mention there's an omake where she celebrates Christmas.

Nasu Logic, deal with it.

Though Extra!Caster seems neat.

Extra Caster is the best caster.

Sorry Medea, but you can't really compete with one of Japan's greatest Kaiju, slayer of a thousand heroes.

Lifeson

2012-01-17, 01:19 PM

If you think Nasu logic is terribad before, read Shiki's monologues in Hisui/Kohaku's routes in Tsukihime while he's stuck in bed and tripping out hard on Kohaku's drugs.

This Chair doesn't even come close. :smallamused:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-17, 01:29 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-17, 02:24 PM

I can't explain Saber Nero's appearance or the Christmas bit, but the beautiful thing about her is that she's a puissant swordmaster because she's insane enough (and DRAMATIC! enough) to have her self-assurance of her own abilities break reality. She's a Saber because she thinks she's good enough at swordfighting to be a Saber, therefore she is.

I think. I don't have a PSP or workable emulator.

That is really the essence of how the sensible half of the Nasuverse works anyways.

Reality Marble, rewrite reality in you vicinity to be in line with your ideas.

Conceptual Weapon, rewrite somethings reality so that X concept is higher in the logical order of things and thus is true despite whatever says its not.

Heck Magecraft in general can be termed as forcing an illusion into existence with prana.

So AkaSaber (going by Carnival Phantasm parlance) being crazy enough to be a swordswoman... and getting to be because of that is pretty par the course and *almost* appropriate to the historical backing. It is also hilarious.

Lifeson

2012-01-17, 02:55 PM

Well, F/SN!Assassin managed to create a miniature version of the Second Magic by practicing hard enough to get three sword strokes in one.

Shirou's ability to just keep going stems from his "lack of self", and that he just flat out doesn't care about himself enough to even consider the consequences, sub-consciously or otherwise.

Yeah, the Nasuverse is pretty damn shonen when you consider it seems to run on determination.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-17, 03:28 PM

Well Assassin its still the same basic idea, tell reality that X is true so whatever would make it not true does not apply. In this case fufilling multiple diverging possibilities at the same time, its like if Schrodinger's Cat was a sword move.

Zel could presumably do the same thing or a really good magus family with the proper tools, compare the Jewel Sword or like how Kiritsugu allegedly uses minute elements of the Fifth Magic. Kojirou is amazing because he does it without any of that, only underlining in my mind why him not being a proper servant is hideously unfair.

And Shirou is more a psychological disorder and a secret weapon we only find out about in Fate. He does rather.... less well... when bereft of it in HF.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-17, 05:21 PM

Shirou's got two advantages: his secret weapon that keeps him from dying stupidly in Fate, and his utter lack of sense of self giving him a pretty powerful Reality Marble (which is, in layman's terms, "go away, physics, I'm in charge now"). Powerful enough to turn his body into swords rather than actually taking damage, anyway.

Lifeson

2012-01-17, 07:41 PM

Kojirou not being a proper servant is pretty unfair until you realize his master is another servant. Caster, no less. Not that there isn't already a rather large amount of "broken" servants in Fate in both senses of the term.

Shirou's pretty psychologically broken, and the only time I think he gains a sense of "self" is when he's trying to kill himself, but even then it's pretty questionable.

Nasu really does love having characters prove their worth through lots of blood and sweat, eh?

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-17, 07:51 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-17, 07:53 PM

BMW has convinced me that Shirou got some self-image out of Heaven's Feel, too. Even if he's living mainly for another person, he made the conscious decision to define himself as such, rather than being a big old cypher full of swords.

Also, looking at Fate/Stay Night, the way to succeed in the Grail War is to cheat the rules harder than any other Servant. Every single one of them has something that breaks the supposed rules:

Saber: Perfect Defense (and even without it, she's so OP that she can win with barely any mana)
Lancer: Spammable instant death
Rider: Probably the least broken, but three Noble Phantasms has to count for something.
Berserker: 12 lifebars
Caster: Disregards all established rules for what Servants can and cannot do with their limited mana supply - without even having a proper Master.
Archer: Overpowered noble phantasm probably balanced by his crappy stats, honestly
Fake Assassin: Not even a real Servant, breaks causality
True Assassin: spawncamper
Gilgamesh: Is a Final Fantasy character with the throw command, eight attacks a round, and 99 of every weapon in the game. And if he gets serious, he can just drill a hole in reality. Also, drowning him in liquid evil just makes him immortal and a marginally bigger douchebag.

Yeah, rules and game balance are for chumps.

Lifeson

2012-01-17, 08:41 PM

...did I just get myself involved in a power level discussion without knowing it? :smalltongue: There's something I thought I'd never do.

Yeah, Rider is the least broken of the servants in F/SN. 3 NPs is pretty standard, though. She can't even claim flight as her own, as Caster and both Archers have answers to that. (Archer's got a rather large range with his bow, and Gilgamesh has a flying machine in Gate O' Babylon.

As for BMW giving Shirou a "self-image", the best he gets is a narrowed focus. Note that his best ability is to negate most damage when he's low on health...which is something he demonstrates any time he's fighting for someone else in Fate.

Prime32

2012-01-17, 09:24 PM

Also, looking at Fate/Stay Night, the way to succeed in the Grail War is to cheat the rules harder than any other Servant. Every single one of them has something that breaks the supposed rules:In Fate/Zero
Archer is still Gilgamesh
Assassin is multiple people
Berserker has insane stats, ignores the "no concentration-based abilities while raging" rule, ignores the "only legendary weapons work against Servants" rule to bring guns to a swordfight, ignores his own lack of a Riding skill, and can steal other peoples' hax. Oh, and his anti-Saber abilities are probably cheating too. But summoning someone who can actually fight as Berserker is basically cheating in the first place. (GUYS. PLAYTEST MORE.)
Caster has infinite mana and can summon Cthulhu
Lancer is okay I guess
Rider has a personal jet bomber and an army of other Servants
Saber is still Saber, with her invincible defense and 20 gigaplot sword-laser

MLai

2012-01-17, 09:58 PM

Actually I like the Fate Extra servant designs (aside from Nero Saber whut) somewhat. At least they make more sense than the generic-Jpnese-MMO Aprocrypha designs. The Extra designs make an effort to pretend to conform to their Servants' biographies.

Nero Saber is just lazy lazy lazy. There is no reason for her to look like a slut-Artoria. I don't mind her written-while-high-on-drugs biography, but at least give her her own look.

And if he gets serious, he can just drill a hole in reality.
Ha, spiral power. He needs crazy sunglasses and a cape.

Caster has infinite mana and can summon Cthulhu
So basically he should have just done that in chapter 1, leave town for 2 weeks, then come back and profit.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-17, 11:01 PM

BMW has convinced me that Shirou got some self-image out of Heaven's Feel, too. Even if he's living mainly for another person, he made the conscious decision to define himself as such, rather than being a big old cypher full of swords.

As I said the answer to Shirou is that he needs to get laid, often. And one of the more disturbing things from the end of HF is Sakura apparently still has certain "aftereffects" so we know its happening and often. That's totally living for someone else.

Also, looking at Fate/Stay Night, the way to succeed in the Grail War is to cheat the rules harder than any other Servant. Every single one of them has something that breaks the supposed rules:

That's the way to win in the Nasuverse period. The rules only seem to exist to describe how X character tells them to sit down and shut up. And whomever cheats more then the next character wins.

That said both Assassins are pretty tame. Kojirou would be so much easier without fighting in a confined space and/or weapon with actual reach, Saber just has some pretty pathetic reach when she's not willing to Ex-CALBUR things which is often. And True Assasin lacks anything conceptually broken, he's got blah stats and a curse spell of low NP rank.

Rider is pretty crazy when you combine her true effective stats with the whole ranking your enemy down from Cybele.

Saber is still Saber, with her invincible defense and 20 gigaplot sword-laser

Except she doesn't have it as a Foregone Conclusion from F/SN. Its a shame really we never see Ideal Saber with her best stats and all her NPs to play with.

If ORT can be Ex-CALBURed I'd back her against that monstrosity too.

Eldariel

2012-01-18, 05:02 AM

The problem with Caster as a Master being a problem is that it only has an entirely arbitrary basis. Its the same as saying Saber needs Invisible Air, because that Excalibur is so visually recognizable. Which is something patently made up . I believe Caster herself says in so many words "I'm the best magus in the war, why shouldn't I summon a Servant?" which I find hard to fault personally.

Meh, the rules for spirits ("spirit can't materialize another spirit" or whatever) can kinda-sorta make sense, I guess. If only because the definition of spirit is arbitrary so their rules being arbitrary is kind of to be expected.

Also, looking at Fate/Stay Night, the way to succeed in the Grail War is to cheat the rules harder than any other Servant.

That's also what all the families have tried to do for every Heaven's Feel; wanting to win bad enough to break the rules harder than anyone else, and getting more ridiculous servants than anyone else. Which leads to them screwing the rules. Reading Fate/Zero, it's funny how half the Masters are convinced their servant is the strongest possible before the fighting actually begins.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-18, 08:24 AM

Ha, spiral power. He needs crazy sunglasses and a cape.

He's already the King of Hearts and the King of Braves Heroes. Add in his drill and it just becomes unfair.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-18, 03:04 PM

BMW has convinced me that Shirou got some self-image out of Heaven's Feel, too. Even if he's living mainly for another person
So, instead of imitating Kiritsugu or his own self he is imitating Sakura now… I hope he is not Joker in disguise :}

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-18, 04:47 PM

I think having his own goal, his own want, is an important step for Shirou. Even if it's "I want to protect Sakura", at least he wants something.

Archer still calls him on "Sakura is just the embodiment of an ideal to you" in Battle Moon Wars when they're replaying an altered version of the Unlimited Blade Works climax, but Shirou proceeds to reject Unlimited Blade Works as a representation of his mind and beats the crap out of Archer with Nine Lives. This is as close as a Nasu fan game is going to get to meaningful psychological analysis.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-18, 05:05 PM

I think having his own goal, his own want, is an important step for Shirou. Even if it's "I want to protect Sakura", at least he wants something.

Perhaps more importantly wanting to protect Sakura is something within the realm of human ambition. Wanting to be a hero of justice and save everybody is wanting something, but if Archer and Kotomine teach us anything its that its a ridiculous want of assured tragedy. Protecting your girl though, quite achievable.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-18, 05:14 PM

"Wanting a real thing", rather than "wanting to follow an ideal as far as he can" like he decides in UBW, then.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-18, 05:34 PM

"Wanting a real thing", rather than "wanting to follow an ideal as far as he can" like he decides in UBW, then.

Yes, though more Fate then UBW since in the latter its implied that Rin will be sure he gets this idiot notion shaken out of his fool head. Or that's what I digested after awhile, haven't played through in a while.

(Noting in Fate its not as questioned and developed)

Prime32

2012-01-18, 05:36 PM

Speaking of BMW, what do you think of the music? There's some nice stuff there, both remixes and originals
Tsukihime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG7y1fMbwAM)
Arcueid (www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3J24BeGVTw)
Saber Lily (www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6hKctXKNE)
Illya/Berserker (www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt2Bwv64SjQ)
Caren/Lancer (www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRum1tkDVBM)
Ciel (www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq0frGd2Dos)

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-18, 09:30 PM

I just beat Red Arcueid and her BGM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn9_25CsgWU) is fantastic. I didn't run any animations the whole level because I wanted to keep it on (and unlike the Act bosses she doesn't override the whole level). I'm a fan of all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epKZipnH9XI) the (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKGg_KzOxOA) boss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYXY6oLdvqk) BGMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXMRtQ6Fmv8), but I like hers the best so far.

Eldariel

2012-01-19, 03:09 AM

So...I guess this is a stupid question but I should probably go and play BMW, right?

Lifeson

2012-01-19, 08:55 AM

If you're into tactical RPGs like Fire Emblem and Super Robot Wars, absolutely. A little less so if you're just here for Type-Moon. It IS just a crack-filled-crossover fic.

I wish Shirou and Tohno Shiki interacted more in BMW, but I guess it'd just end up with them in a small fight with either themselves (Shirou's gonna throw his life away, and Shiki hates that.), or their numerous love interests are going to converge into a singularity of jealousy and rage.

Either one would've made a nice bonus stage on top of the Tohno Family Takeover Plan bonus stage. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Re-reading this page made me realize why I like Nasu's writing so much. There's never a dull moment, and you couldn't just come up with this amount of ridiculousness, it actually takes skill to convey a good storyline while writing something so cracked.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-19, 09:27 AM

EDIT: Re-reading this page made me realize why I like Nasu's writing so much. There's never a dull moment, and you couldn't just come up with this amount of ridiculousness, it actually takes skill to convey a good storyline while writing something so cracked.

If only he did it in fewer words.

Tenno Seremel

2012-01-19, 10:11 AM

If only he did it in fewer words.
Personally, I like walls of text… *hides*

Lifeson

2012-01-19, 01:04 PM

The only thing that bugs me about Nasu's writing length is that it lengthens every time. Tsukihime is about the size of the Lord of the Rings. Fate/Stay Night is around three times that. If Mahoyo wasn't just one storyline, then I'm pretty sure it would've ended up even longer than that.

I'm guessing for the Tsukihime remake, every route gets an added bump to the word count as well. It's like why Realta Nua got extra bits written too.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-19, 01:57 PM

As long as I can mess with the settings to get up to my own reading speed then I don't really have a problem with Nasu casting Wall of Text.

Then again I'm the guy who once devoured the Wheel of Time twice in a row in under three months and likes his books big enough to cause bodily harm if thrown so I'm probably just well adapted.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-19, 03:15 PM

Wheel of Time: so long, even its author couldn't make it to the end.

Eldariel

2012-01-19, 05:28 PM

Seems Nasu's works are about the right the length for me. If anything, I certainly wouldn't have minded even more in-depth writing; that's what really sets the mood and conveys the experience to the player in oh-so-many of the scenes (of course, in some it fails spectacularly but majority of the time, Nasu's writing really works). And there's plenty of setup for scenes not in the game, too.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-19, 11:25 PM

Wheel of Time: so long, even its author couldn't make it to the end.

That cruel, irrelevant, misguided, and absolutely true.

Lifeson

2012-01-23, 04:42 PM

Eldariel

2012-01-23, 09:46 PM

I also got to the end of Emi's route in Katawa Shoujo and thought to myself "That's it? But I've only spent somewhere like 10 hours on this? What happens neeeexxxtttt"

But then I realized it was about the size of every non-Type Moon VN route. It's times like these that I realize I'm spoiled by Nasu when I read his stuff.

Well, there's Clannad too but other than that, yeah. I spent 3 hours on the prologue of FSN (though there were external factors and a sleepy mind involved).

I'm so disappointed the Unlimited Blade Works movie didn't involve the proper Gates vs. UBW match in the end though; all they did was hack each other. Where was the infinity of blades clashing together? :smallfrown:

MLai

2012-01-23, 10:31 PM

I'm so disappointed the Unlimited Blade Works movie didn't involve the proper Gates vs. UBW match in the end though; all they did was hack each other. Where was the infinity of blades clashing together? :smallfrown:
100% agree! The coolest thing about that match was Shirou pitting mere shounen willpower against the entire +4 arsenal of the mythical treasure vault of fabled Babylon. Basically the faith/imagination/chutzpah of One Man against the cumulative power of an entire progenitor mythic cycle from the cradle of civilization, which gave rise to all the rest of human mythos in the Western World (arguably).

Basically the badassitude of Shirou, against the badassitude of every human being that ever lived and dreamed in the western hemisphere, from 5000 BC to 2000+ AD.

The-Mage-King

2012-01-24, 12:27 AM

Yeah.

Also, the only sub I've found of Fate/Prototype I found is... Rather low quality, in terms of typesetting/translation. Anyone know of a decent version?

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-24, 02:16 AM

There's a better translation out now. And the finale of Carnival Phantasm which I will comment they saved the best the absolute best for just last.

This image spoilered for size, spoilers, and massive amounts of pure awesome:

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/604/utwcarnivalphantasm12bd.jpg

this image spoilered for size, spoilers, and for unbelievable wish fulfilling d'aww:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/604/utwcarnivalphantasm12bd.jpg

Prime32

2012-01-24, 07:41 AM

^ That last scene was great. It also had a cameo from Type Venus.

Elder Tsofu

2012-01-24, 08:33 AM

So that was who she was?
I'm slightly down that its over, but it was certainly an enjoyable watch. ^^

Lifeson

2012-01-24, 08:47 AM

this image spoilered for size, spoilers, and for unbelievable wish fulfilling d'aww:
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/604/utwcarnivalphantasm12bd.jpg

...they missed putting Shirou in the family reunion? :smalleek:

Elder Tsofu

2012-01-24, 10:37 AM

I've wondered about one thing though, whose hand was Saber reaching for in the credits of Carnival phantasm?

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-24, 11:24 AM

...they missed putting Shirou in the family reunion? :smalleek:

Note the empty seat? Shirou is there of course, and Shirou came with them he's just up at the moment.

Eldariel

2012-01-24, 12:25 PM

this image spoilered for size, spoilers, and for unbelievable wish fulfilling d'aww:
*snip*

I'm just really happy it happened somewhere. Ilya's part in Fate is so hard.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-24, 12:53 PM

I'm just really happy it happened somewhere. Ilya's part in Fate is so hard.

Well there's also her magical girl manga.... but yeah I can't recall one shot with everyone off the top of my head.

(Speaking of which Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma is surprisingly awesome)

Lifeson

2012-01-24, 01:00 PM

Note the empty seat? Shirou is there of course, and Shirou came with them he's just up at the moment.

A seat for Archer would've been nice, too.

...oh, wait. :smallamused:

EDIT: Speaking of Carnival Phantasm, all of the promo materials with Arc have shown me that she looks fabulous in everything. Why isn't she the poster girl for Type-Moon over SEIBA?

Arakune

2012-01-26, 08:15 AM

A seat for Archer would've been nice, too.

...oh, wait. :smallamused:

EDIT: Speaking of Carnival Phantasm, all of the promo materials with Arc have shown me that she looks fabulous in everything. Why isn't she the poster girl for Type-Moon over SEIBA?

The early work wasn't as famous and don't have nearly as many extra material. Like a movie and other games and (more) spin off mangas.

And the artwork for tsukihime wasn't all that good on some scenes, varying in quality here and there even more than Fate.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 11:48 AM

EDIT: Speaking of Carnival Phantasm, all of the promo materials with Arc have shown me that she looks fabulous in everything. Why isn't she the poster girl for Type-Moon over SEIBA?

I think I will go with "Tsukihime doesn't have an anime" as well. Fate's anime for all its problems is certainly what got me into Type-Moon.

Arakune

2012-01-26, 11:56 AM

Besides, Melty-blood was a joke that got out of control...

Eldariel

2012-01-26, 02:10 PM

I think I will go with "Tsukihime doesn't have an anime" as well. Fate's anime for all its problems is certainly what got me into Type-Moon.

Huh. For me it was running across Tsukihime VN in a random forum. But yeah, it's definitely true; whenever you talk about Fate you'll run into a bunch of people who talk about Fate as only the FSN anime even though it's the least expansive story of the franchise. I'd be hoping they'd animate the manga version of Tsukihime TBH; the manga did a rather good job as a convergence path. Unlike with Fate, it's actually doable to combine the different paths of Tsukihime to a reasonable degree into a single story.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 03:39 PM

Huh. For me it was running across Tsukihime VN in a random forum. But yeah, it's definitely true; whenever you talk about Fate you'll run into a bunch of people who talk about Fate as only the FSN anime even though it's the least expansive story of the franchise. I'd be hoping they'd animate the manga version of Tsukihime TBH; the manga did a rather good job as a convergence path. Unlike with Fate, it's actually doable to combine the different paths of Tsukihime to a reasonable degree into a single story.

I alway argue that all three paths of F/SN are actually a single story in a meta sense. Only Fate works in and of itself, though HF is close. Observe how disposable Saber is in UBW and HF for example, its obvious after awhile that she really has nothing to do in each route.

UBW in particular only works because it stole the set-up from the Fate route. It is easily the weakest in the use of characters who aren't Archer.

SITB

2012-01-26, 04:39 PM

I alway argue that all three paths of F/SN are actually a single story in a meta sense. Only Fate works in and of itself, though HF is close. Observe how disposable Saber is in UBW and HF for example, its obvious after awhile that she really has nothing to do in each route.

UBW in particular only works because it stole the set-up from the Fate route. It is easily the weakest in the use of characters who aren't Archer.

Not really, or to be more precise your first point is true but your second point is false.

Fate doesn't use any characters well apart from Saber, UBW at least develops Caster along with Archer and Archer itself is used to propel Shirou's development. Contrast Fate where it is basically Saber time all the time and no other character gets any meaningful amount of screentime. Take Berserker for example; he is not a very intersting character because being berserk all the time; the only time he gets characterized is in UBW and HF (during his death), or Lancer who teams up with Shirou and Rin (and later with Shirou and Saber) and get's characterised by his conversations with them (also by his death scene in UBW).

Contrast Fate wherein:
1)Rider dies completely ignored (Though she always gets the shat in F/SN).
2)Berserker dies to Shirou and Saber and he wasn't characterised at all.
3)Lancer appears at the start and disppears until the end where he dies by Gil after two minutes of screentime.
4)Assassin only appears once and then dies offscreen
5)Caster gets punked by Gil.
6)Archer only matters in UBW and HF.
7)And of course Gil itself is characterised by his lust towards Saber as his primary goal (as opposed to UBW where he has some other goal rather then making Saber his bride).

And the Master/Human spectrum of the cast doesn't really fare any better other then Rin who always gets screentime.

Fate is a setup for the other routes, but it's giagantic flaw is that it focuses on Saber to the exclusion of every other character including Shirou himself.

EDIT: \/ Kotomine only gets developed in HF not in Fate; hell I have seen people argue that HF is Kotomine's route; Berserker is only used as an obstacle rather than a character. And Rin suffers from the problem that while her character gets established in Fate, it only gets expended in UBW (Which is supposed to be her route) or HF (By contrasting her with Sakura).

Eldariel

2012-01-26, 05:31 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 07:10 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-26, 07:19 PM

From what I've seen, bearing in mind that I still haven't read the VN, Fate is the route that stands best on its own because it has to be. It's the mandatory first route and covers all the worldbuilding and the basic characterization for everyone except Caster, Souichirou, Rider, and people who don't show up unil Heaven's Feel. Both other routes rely on the player remembering what they learned in Fate. That said, that's what allows Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel to take the time to go beyond the basic plot of "boy meets girl, boy and girl fight evil for the magical macguffin" and do arguably more interesting, or at least more complex, things.

SITB

2012-01-26, 08:14 PM

To respond to both. (And noting first that I'm singling UBW out as the thinnest route not addressing Fate vs HF really)

First Fate introduces most of the cast. Further more there are three full fledged antagonist pairs. There's Shinji and Rider, Ilya and Berzerker, plus Gil and Kotomine. All of whom take a fair bit of effort to beat by Saber and Shirou. In addition we have Rin as a strong supporting character. Just about everyone important to the story is explored. Someone like Berzerker we may not find out much but here is where his base is established which is a lot, but all we add to that later is really one scene. While Archer is not explained its very much laying the ground work for later.

Not really, Shinji isn't explored at all other then beiing an a-hole, you get no knowledge about his drives and backstory until HF; Rider gets shafted throughout the whole VN and gets almost no character development (aside from in HF with her devotion to Sakura). Thus, team Matou doesn't get any characterisation in Fate.

Ilya acts like the sterotypical loli girl (having lots of magical powers that disappear as soon as she joins the hero, having an unexplained infatuation with the hero) that really isn't explained until HF; Berserker gets nothing other than being a road bump for Shirou/Saber team. A nasty roadbump, but in the end he is an obstacle rather than a character.

Kotomine appears at the very end of Fate where he drops the fact that he is evil and then he and Shirou have to fight. Only in HF does he gets characterised more then generically evil. Gil character in Fate is all about his obsession with Saber (and kinda being a di**), his role in the story is to fight Saber and that's it; he only exists as an enemy Saber has to overcome, with no other motivation.

Rin characterisation in Fate itself is shallow because most of it is reserve for the other routes; and of course the greatest sin is that Shirou remains static throughout the whole route.

Now UBW, what does it add? Well it adds Caster and Souchirou. Unfortunately Caster is perhaps the flattest of the Servants character wise, she's an evil witch and does evil witchy things. And it adds Archer's past and Xanatos scheming, which is of course the best part. However nobody else really gains very much as characters.

Lancer only gets characterised in this route; Berserker gets one of his two character scenes in this route, Rin actually gets more characterised then in Fate, Shirou get gets his much needed development.

And really Caster being a flat character? Compared to either Assassin, Rider, Lancer or Berserker? Rider didn't get any screen time at all apart from about five minutes apperance in HF to drive home her devotion to Sakura. Lancer is the standard happy-go-fighting guy that only gets entertaining in UBW becasue he can actually has conversations with the other characters. Berserker doesn't get any characterisation apart from the two aforementioned scenes. Either Assassin get as much screen time as Issei.

Shirou arrives at much the same conclusion in both routes, though he's more directly called out in UBW and has to face the consequences more directly he still in the end just stubborns on through. Even Rin as the heroine doesn't gain much, she's easily the most tacked on romance and sex scene (of which there's only one, this is not actually insignificant) and remains basically the same strong supporting character for Shirou as she is in every route. Only now they are boy and girlfriend at the end because Shirou has to hook up with someone doesn't he?

Not really, in Fate he continues along the same path as the start never once questioning why he is on that path or what he wants to achieve, while in UBW he has to face the truth of his ideal and fight to validate them, contrast Fate where Shirou only cares about Saber and thinks about Saber and Saber Saber Saber.

Regarding Rin, yeah the romance is terrible (like in Fate) but Rin gets more characterised by the simple fact that she drops her guard in UBW and actually confides Shirou rather then acting as the aloof know-it-all tsundere.

And then there are other problems. Saber is totally shafted into being a Macguffin for Caster's arc. Oooh no Saber was captured, but if you haven't played Fate there's no reason to truly fear that and the possiblity isn't even realized. They barely even deal with her identity where as in Fate its a massive revelation. She has no conclusion, and basically sits and watches both of Shirou's fights. Saber is basically an artifact. Nor is Saber the only character shafted.

Why should UBW deal with Saber's problems? It's all about Shirou/Archer; and yet still manages to put more characterisation than Fate. Saber gets captaured because she attacked Caster while holding Taiga hostage and Shirou panicked, and during the Archer fight she explicitly doesn't interfere becuse this is really something Shirou has to do himself.

Rider is unceremoniously killed off screen, Shinji survives but we find pretty much nothing we didn't already know about him being scum.

Rider always gets shafted, it''s the same in Fate too, she goes in and then gets excaliblasted, Shinji character only matters in HF (like the rest of the Matou family).

Berzerker is Worfed like an idiot (seriously that whole defending Illya bit is mighty thin) and then Illya killed, compare how difficult that was in Fate and how Illya stuck around as a supporting character. Sure we get a touching flashback, but that's a single scene... weak.

How is this weak? If Berserker won't stop the weapons with his body they will passs through where he stood and kill Ilya, that's like why Gil stood there in the first place.

Also, that single scene is far better than any scene in fate given that Ilya character in Fate was "oni-chan :3", and Berserker was a non-entity. At least in UBW botho f them got some more meaningful than a single note anime stereotype.

And it all by Gil who's exactly the same d-bag he was in Fate only without much of his obsession with Saber to give him some actual focus. Gil is trumped up as a major villain but its still shamefully borrowing on what you know about him from Fate without adding anything. And then he's killed at the end to make Shirou look badarse. Kotomine is in the same boat but doesn't even make it to the end.

Gil isn't being solely defined by his obsession to Saber is a good thing, even moreso given that all of Fate was just about Saber and no one else. At least he has other goals in UBw rather then SABER SABER SABER.

And of course Kotomine gets his time to shine in HF.

And while no route is free of dubious story development I find UBW particularly bad. Oh no we need a Servant to face Caster and Archer well look here comes Lancer to fill in, isn't that convenient. Oh Shirou has to fight well this route, guess he better start absorbing it from Archer so we can justify that. And oh the entire route is about who Archer is well we've settled that, guess we better tack on something about that Grail War whatever to round up the rest of the plot. Huh Heaven's Feel is after this, well there's no room to set it up like we did Archer in Fate so they'll just have to wing it.

We knew that Kotomine was Lancer's master and even Rin herself doubted that Kotomine was killed. Shirou drawing memories from Archer could be called a dubous plot device but it's: A) less terribad then Shirou suddenly tracing Caliburn and killing Berserker. B) Actually used in the route in order to reinforce the theme of Shirou still choosing to walk is path despite the certainty of what will happen to him.

And really, you could argue the same 'dubious story development' for Shirou's skill in Tracing in the first place.

And check the prevous routes, Sakura always knew about the HGW.

Mind you I don't dislike UBW, but its still the thinnest route in terms of actual developments.

Not really, what developent occured in Fate proper that wasn't about Saber? Gil appears and his character is all about Saber. Shirou whole journey through this route is thinking about Saber. Rin never moves from her inital apperance (also Saber, see the 'sexy-time' in the forset and her complacency after beating Berserker where she thinks that know Saber can easily win the war), Ilya alos never moves from her first apperance asie from losing Berserker which didn't change her behaviour, Kotomine apperas in the last day to procalim how evil he is and then die to Shirou. And all the Servants barring Saber only appear to show themselves and then die to Saber (Or Gil, in Caster's case).

MLai

2012-01-26, 08:35 PM

Eldariel

2012-01-26, 09:44 PM

For a superhero, it's always "Get thee from me, Satan. I will save BOTH the girl AND the world!" No internal conflict required.

Isn't the whole point of HF that Shiro finally finds he has something more important than his ideal and decides to **** the world and save Sakura? Even Shiro understands his ideal is an impossible ideal; he can try to save everyone but realistically he cannot. In other paths he understands he cannot be the kind of a superhero he wants to be, yet it's an ideal he strives for regardless. In HF he pretty much goes "yeah, that's nice and all but it's also an impossible ideal that I came up with to give my life a content and it appears it's no longer necessary".

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 09:47 PM

Not really, Shinji isn't explored at all other then beiing an a-hole, you get no knowledge about his drives and backstory until HF; Rider gets shafted throughout the whole VN and gets almost no character development (aside from in HF with her devotion to Sakura). Thus, team Matou doesn't get any characterisation in Fate.

Ilya acts like the sterotypical loli girl (having lots of magical powers that disappear as soon as she joins the hero, having an unexplained infatuation with the hero) that really isn't explained until HF; Berserker gets nothing other than being a road bump for Shirou/Saber team. A nasty roadbump, but in the end he is an obstacle rather than a character.

Kotomine appears at the very end of Fate where he drops the fact that he is evil and then he and Shirou have to fight. Only in HF does he gets characterised more then generically evil.

Compare your mention of UBW to HF in this quote. Fate introduces everything that is completed with Heaven's Feel, hence those routes have a more complex relationship.

UBW adds all of nothing to this arc in my mind. Its a diversion in the middle to flesh out Archer. Which is about the only thing HF shamelessly borrows from UBW with that arm. Given that Caster got axed entirely out of HF.

Rin characterisation in Fate itself is shallow because most of it is reserve for the other routes; and of course the greatest sin is that Shirou remains static throughout the whole route.

I find Rin about equal in all routes, she done well as a supporting character but she never really becomes a central force in the way Saber and Sakura do.

Lancer only gets characterised in this route; Berserker gets one of his two character scenes in this route, Rin actually gets more characterised then in Fate, Shirou get gets his much needed development.

And really Caster being a flat character? Compared to either Assassin, Rider, Lancer or Berserker? Rider didn't get any screen time at all apart from about five minutes apperance in HF to drive home her devotion to Sakura. Lancer is the standard happy-go-fighting guy that only gets entertaining in UBW becasue he can actually has conversations with the other characters. Berserker doesn't get any characterisation apart from the two aforementioned scenes. Either Assassin get as much screen time as Issei.

Don't kid yaself Lancer along with Assassin and True Assassin never get characterized, they remain get hinted at but never really dealt with. Which isn't a big problem in and of itself. Berzerker is in the same boat but gets to be the focus of the plot for a good stretch of Fate. And his point essentially disallows characterization so its okay being a major roadblock is just fine

All of them have far more potential then Caster. Aside from her comedic moe side there is nothing more to her, and the comedic moe side does really expand her just makes her more watchably hilarious. Caster in a tennis outfit is probably my seminal memory of her.

And Rider.... yeah see that Heaven's Feel again. In Fate we set up that she's really not that bad just with the bad luck to draw Shinji, more of that initial characterization from Fate. It therefore makes sense when we find out she really belongs to Sakura.

Regarding Rin, yeah the romance is terrible (like in Fate) but Rin gets more characterised by the simple fact that she drops her guard in UBW and actually confides Shirou rather then acting as the aloof know-it-all tsundere.

For all Shirou's stay in the kitchen I still find his relationship with Saber more believably romantic then with Rin's.

Why should UBW deal with Saber's problems? It's all about Shirou/Archer; and yet still manages to put more characterisation than Fate. Saber gets captaured because she attacked Caster while holding Taiga hostage and Shirou panicked, and during the Archer fight she explicitly doesn't interfere becuse this is really something Shirou has to do himself.

Compare how Rin contributes something in every route, she's always an important partner to Shirou. Saber is sidelined in both other routes without much to do, real. Given that if she did it would trainwreck things, but particularly in UBW I feel she could have been eliminated and it would be tragic but better for the story then standing around.

Gil isn't being solely defined by his obsession to Saber is a good thing, even moreso given that all of Fate was just about Saber and no one else. At least he has other goals in UBw rather then SABER SABER SABER.

I don't see what he adds though, now he's an even more generic troll out for lulz by seeing what will happen. We've got to wait until Fate Zero to see Gil with a touch more nuance.

We knew that Kotomine was Lancer's master and even Rin herself doubted that Kotomine was killed. Shirou drawing memories from Archer could be called a dubous plot device but it's: A) less terribad then Shirou suddenly tracing Caliburn and killing Berserker. B) Actually used in the route in order to reinforce the theme of Shirou still choosing to walk is path despite the certainty of what will happen to him.

And really, you could argue the same 'dubious story development' for Shirou's skill in Tracing in the first place.

Shirou is total haxx in every route. I find Nine Lives Blade Works even worse then Caliburn personally. We can probably agree that what should have happened was that the "mana transfer dragon" should have given Saber a steady connect not just umm fill her up, but hold off on it until the fight with Herk for it to dramatically open and have Saber now safely sling Excalibur

Not really, what developent occured in Fate proper that wasn't about Saber? Gil appears and his character is all about Saber. Shirou whole journey through this route is thinking about Saber. Rin never moves from her inital apperance (also Saber, see the 'sexy-time' in the forset and her complacency after beating Berserker where she thinks that know Saber can easily win the war), Ilya alos never moves from her first apperance asie from losing Berserker which didn't change her behaviour, Kotomine apperas in the last day to procalim how evil he is and then die to Shirou. And all the Servants barring Saber only appear to show themselves and then die to Saber (Or Gil, in Caster's case).

We meet practically everyone and flesh out their personalities. Now yes Saber and Shirou are in the spotlight, but as the supporting characters I feel that most characters get at least half of their development in Fate. And the only one unceremoniously shafted by Fate is Caster.

Eldariel

2012-01-26, 09:55 PM

I find Rin about equal in all routes, she done well as a supporting character but she never really becomes a central force in the way Saber and Sakura do.

But that's because their relationship is different. Both Saber and Sakura are in a position where they need Shiro and they fall into the Damsel in Distress role and necessity kind of sets the pace for the story. While with Rin, she's 100% independent and their relationship is kind of an equal deal.

While both Saber and Sakura romances have a lot of attached baggage, Rin is a simple case of two people in love acting on their feelings. That leaves her more distant; she also acts independently for a large part of the story, which indeed is a part of her character.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-26, 10:19 PM

Fate Shirou: "I want to save everybody."

UBW Shirou: "I recognize that I can't save everybody, but I will get as close to it as humanly possible, regardless of what happens to me."

HF Shirou: "I will save Sakura, regardless of what happens to me or anyone else."
HF True End Ilya: "Baka onii-chan."
HF True End Shirou: "Oh right I should probably live to make Sakura happy. Just as soon as someone reconstructs my brain..."

That's all I can say with certainty; I'll stay out of the argument of which route is superior now.

Also, MLai, if you edit your posts, there's a "delete post" option up at the top.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 10:38 PM

But that's because their relationship is different. Both Saber and Sakura are in a position where they need Shiro and they fall into the Damsel in Distress role and necessity kind of sets the pace for the story. While with Rin, she's 100% independent and their relationship is kind of an equal deal.

While both Saber and Sakura romances have a lot of attached baggage, Rin is a simple case of two people in love acting on their feelings. That leaves her more distant; she also acts independently for a large part of the story, which indeed is a part of her character.

I don't really disagree here. Saber never quite gets into Damsel in Distress in Fate but close enough. Certainly both Saber and Sakura are more dependent on Shirou for support.

However I'll say this really doesn't change things either. Rin remains important to every route, which is certainly a statement since only Shirou has a better claim here. Yet for she never really makes UBW her route the way Saber and Sakura do theirs. Perhaps crystallizing this, she doesn't quite pull any stunts in UBW to match killing Berzerker once or wielding the Jewel Sword.

Eldariel

2012-01-26, 10:57 PM

I don't really disagree here. Saber never quite gets into Damsel in Distress in Fate but close enough. Certainly both Saber and Sakura are more dependent on Shirou for support.

In addition to the issue with energy and stuff (and the whole Master - Servant relationship), Saber also has the whole "Arturia vs. King" and the misguided quest for the Grail going on which she needs Shiro to resolve.

A theme that does repeat at the end of UBW in the Good End when she mentions Archer told her her goal is wrong and she needs Shiro to tell her the answer one day.

However I'll say this really doesn't change things either. Rin remains important to every route, which is certainly a statement since only Shirou has a better claim here. Yet for she never really makes UBW her route the way Saber and Sakura do theirs. Perhaps crystallizing this, she doesn't quite pull any stunts in UBW to match killing Berzerker once or wielding the Jewel Sword.

True; the only real difference is that it's the only route in which Rin and Shiro really act on their feelings. It's made blatantly obvious in HF and heavily suggested in Fate that regardless of the path they feel the same but there's no word of what happens after Fate and apparently Sakura takes priority for both of them in HF.

I completely agree that Rin is central enough in all paths that there's really no shift into UBW, though her character and personality is expanded upon a bit in few of the crises. Though I disagree that there's nothing as awesome for her in UBW; she does punch out Caster after all. But that of course still doesn't actually outdo what she does in the other paths; in my books it certainly matches that though.

Really, the biggest thing that makes UBW Rin's path is the lack of another protagonist; Saber is written out for big parts of the story (basically, her contributions are fighting Assassin and...that's about it) and Sakura basically doesn't exist. So that only leaves Rin while in the other paths there's Rin and then the main heroine.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-26, 11:42 PM

I completely agree that Rin is central enough in all paths that there's really no shift into UBW, though her character and personality is expanded upon a bit in few of the crises. Though I disagree that there's nothing as awesome for her in UBW; she does punch out Caster after all. But that of course still doesn't actually outdo what she does in the other paths; in my books it certainly matches that though.

Yeah its pretty awesome and I don't want to diminish it but punching out Medea is a bit lower tier then offing Heracles and fighting the Dark Sakura one-on-one after she'd chewed up every Servant in sight. In hindsight I wished Rin had finished Caster entirely.

SITB

2012-01-27, 04:41 AM

I think that the reason the Fate route is the most public face of FSN, and Saber the most popular character, is because it's the most accessible storyline. Classic coming-of-age, + boy meets girl, + hero's journey. A little bit of internal ideological conflict, but it's handily resolved by one internal monologue. And none of it hampered by Japanese quirks of storytelling: you can fully enjoy Fate without knowing anything about Nasuverse.

Except Shirou never undergoes his coming of age story because he gets no actual character development in Fate; I mean unless you go by the fact that sex==Coming of Age, but then Shirou does that in all the routes.

In fact for someone not really interested in Nasuverse (me, and other casuals), being free of that distraction allows me to enjoy the underlying story more. It's like being able to enjoy Star Wars OT without all the crap of EU and PT distracting you. I don't want to integrate crap for example like "the Holy Grail is actually not the REAL Holy Grail blah blah..." because it undermines the poetic theme of having King Arthur striving for it, and then finally realizing his personal resolution lies elsewhere. I would have to know all that Nasuverse stuff for other stories and routes, but not for Fate.

Except Arthur striving to get the holy Grail to achive his wishes need not be about the holy grail in the first place. The thrust of Saber's wish is to undo her being by getting a wish, it doesn't need to be about the Holy Grail in the first place (and it really isn't). Hell, Kotomine in Fate tells Shirou when he meets him that it isn't the holy Grail in the first place.

As for Shirou's philosophical conflict/development, the Fate one was acceptable to the reader because Kotomine was offering a devil's bargain in terms of genie's wishes (resurrect the fire victims, keep Saber here). It was acceptable in UBW because Shirou was face to face with his future-imperfect self. But what was the point of it in HF? "Oh Shirou you must decide whether to save everyone by killing Sakura, or abandon your heroic ideals by trying to save Sakura." Pfft, what? Superheroes never cave in to that logic. For a superhero, it's always "Get thee from me, Satan. I will save BOTH the girl AND the world!" No internal conflict required.

Shirou conflict came only at the last second of Fate, and was decided from the start becuse Shirou remained a static character throughout the whole of Fate.

Regarding HF, are you really trying to argue superhero logic? Really really? Give me a way Shirou can save others and Sakura at the same time.

Shirou is knowingly willing to sacrifice others to save Sakura and he can't take any middle option. Hell, it even firs in the themaic snese given that he will almost assuredly come to that choice later on if he decided to pursue his ideals. Choosing to save the people he cares about or saving the countless facleless masses.

@ Fate is all SABER SABER SABER:
No, Fate is about Saber and Shirou, with minimum Nasuverse interference. Which is why it transcends typical convoluted Jpnese anime logic and tells an accessible story with universal themes. Shirou does change in Fate: he comes of age. Not everyone is interested in the convoluted gory self-absorbed sophist themes of HF.

Ha, no. Shirou doesn't develop at all during Fate, his only motivation is romancing Saber. Even his ideal gets shunted to the side apart from the very end.

And really, 'convulated Japan anime logic'? What about the "There is always a third choice" thing you mentioned two paragraphs ago? Both UBW and HF tell a better story becuse they focus on Shirou as a character as well on other character (For instance the route Heroines), while Fate is wlways about Saber.

Compare your mention of UBW to HF in this quote. Fate introduces everything that is completed with Heaven's Feel, hence those routes have a more complex relationship.

Introducing characters doesn't make them complex, otherwise UBW rivals fate in it's comlexity given that Rider also appeared in UBW where she pinned Shirou to a a tree. Berserker had the same appearance as in Fate except that he gets an actual motivation now, Lancer and Gil appear for more than five minutes at the end, etc. Hell, Ilya appeared the same way in both routes, while Lancer apperas at the prologue.

UBW adds all of nothing to this arc in my mind. Its a diversion in the middle to flesh out Archer. Which is about the only thing HF shamelessly borrows from UBW with that arm. Given that Caster got axed entirely out of HF.

Except that it fleshes out Shirou's character that got axed in Fate, due to the high focus on Saber?

Also, Caster, Lancer, Assassin and Berserker only get their time to shine here.

I find Rin about equal in all routes, she done well as a supporting character but she never really becomes a central force in the way Saber and Sakura do.

True, Rin never takes center stage like Saber or Sakura, but Rin's character gets only fleshed in UBW (rather than Fate) where she has a heart to heart talk with Shirou, or where she angsts about Sakura or any scene where she acts rather then a knowledgeable ally as a human being with her own failings.

Don't kid yaself Lancer along with Assassin and True Assassin never get characterized, they remain get hinted at but never really dealt with. Which isn't a big problem in and of itself. Berzerker is in the same boat but gets to be the focus of the plot for a good stretch of Fate. And his point essentially disallows characterization so its okay being a major roadblock is just fine

So how is this diffrerent from Fate? Becuse it applied to all the characters in Fate only moreso. And being an obstacle isn't the same has being a focus f the plot. Hell, Berserker gets to be an obstacle for only 3/2 days given that he only becomes relevant once Ilya kidnaps Shirou.

All of them have far more potential then Caster. Aside from her comedic moe side there is nothing more to her, and the comedic moe side does really expand her just makes her more watchably hilarious. Caster in a tennis outfit is probably my seminal memory of her.

Haha what? Did you miss the whole point about Caster unrequited tragic love? Or the fact that she know that only be using forbidden magic she can remain in the HGW with her master despite the fact that she feels it only serves to push her Master further away from her?

And Rider.... yeah see that Heaven's Feel again. In Fate we set up that she's really not that bad just with the bad luck to draw Shinji, more of that initial characterization from Fate. It therefore makes sense when we find out she really belongs to Sakura.

She drained the whole school by Shinji's orders. In UBW she teared down one of Shirous arms in one of the bad ends; she only gets more characterised other than Shiji's servant in HF. Otherwise she is a mere speedbump like Berserker.

Compare how Rin contributes something in every route, she's always an important partner to Shirou. Saber is sidelined in both other routes without much to do, real. Given that if she did it would trainwreck things, but particularly in UBW I feel she could have been eliminated and it would be tragic but better for the story then standing around.

So? Sakura doesn't get any screentime until HF; Kotomine only gets character in HF, Archer and Caster in UBW. Not all characters are treated equally. The probelm is that in Fate it's all about Saber. Rin gets more screentime because Shirou needs someone to ask about magic/history of magic and Rin fills this postion in every route.

I don't see what he adds though, now he's an even more generic troll out for lulz by seeing what will happen. We've got to wait until Fate Zero to see Gil with a touch more nuance.

Having a motivation more then "SABER SABER SABER" after coming from a route that was all about SABER SABER SABER. He wishes to make the world worthy of his rule, and talks to Shinji abou what it means; as opposed to Fate where he only appears to pursue Saber.

Shirou is total haxx in every route. I find Nine Lives Blade Works even worse then Caliburn personally. We can probably agree that what should have happened was that the "mana transfer dragon" should have given Saber a steady connect not just umm fill her up, but hold off on it until the fight with Herk for it to dramatically open and have Saber now safely sling Excalibur

And then Shirou gets completely sidelined despite being the main character becuase now he has no use other than being Saber's mana battery.

We meet practically everyone and flesh out their personalities. Now yes Saber and Shirou are in the spotlight, but as the supporting characters I feel that most characters get at least half of their development in Fate. And the only one unceremoniously shafted by Fate is Caster.

Shirou isn't in the spotlight. Saber is in the spotlight, Shirou's sole charactersation in Fate is about how he loves Saber.

And really, which character got fleshed in Fate?

Ilya? No she only gets fleshed in HF, in Fate she acts the same way she acts in UBW except that in Fate Gil doesn't kill her midway. She remains the same character she intially appeared when she challanged Shirou and Rin at the start of each route.
Sakura? Only HF.
Rider? She gets the same characterisation in Fate, as she gets in UBW (Speedbump); only marginally better in HF
Shinji? See Rider.
Lancer? He appeares the same way in all the routes and only gets screentime in UBW. His last appearance in Fate is just him fighting Gil because he doesn't like him/deosn't like being used. The only time he gets somewhat fleshed is in UBW
Berserker? He only gets any amount of characterisation in UBW (being killed does not amount to characterisation)
Assassin? Have the same appearance in Fate and UBW, except in UBW he gets a fight scene rather then dissappearing for the rest of the route.
Gil? Appears at the end and his only motivation is Saber-centric.
Kotomine? Har, he appears as evil in Fate and then dies only getting characterised in HF.

Did I forget someone?

I don't really disagree here. Saber never quite gets into Damsel in Distress in Fate but close enough. Certainly both Saber and Sakura are more dependent on Shirou for support.

However I'll say this really doesn't change things either. Rin remains important to every route, which is certainly a statement since only Shirou has a better claim here. Yet for she never really makes UBW her route the way Saber and Sakura do theirs. Perhaps crystallizing this, she doesn't quite pull any stunts in UBW to match killing Berzerker once or wielding the Jewel Sword.

She has a better claim to it then Shirou, given how sidelined his development apart from romancing Saber.

Also, fighting Caster and winning is far more impressive than bomb rushing Berserker and than having to be rescued by Shirou.

Yeah its pretty awesome and I don't want to diminish it but punching out Medea is a bit lower tier then offing Heracles and fighting the Dark Sakura one-on-one after she'd chewed up every Servant in sight. In hindsight I wished Rin had finished Caster entirely.

I can't really see how fighting Madea is les awesome then Herc, she gets one shot at beating Herc and then fails; contrast Madea which Souchirou had to step in and save Caster in order dor Rin to fail.

MLai

2012-01-27, 05:30 AM

Isn't the whole point of HF that Shiro finally finds he has something more important than his ideal and decides to **** the world and save Sakura? Even Shiro understands his ideal is an impossible ideal; he can try to save everyone but realistically he cannot.
My point is, the entire point of being a superhero in any media, is the protag will "defy Vulcan logic" which says "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and do the illogical thing of trying to save everybody, AND HE SUCCEEDS AT IT. That's the definition of being a superhero. If you do the logical thing, then you become the Vulcan sidekick that the superhero makes fun of.

Which is why I say Fate is the most publicly accessible storyline. The appeal of HF is not as universal.

Except Shirou never undergoes his coming of age story because he gets no actual character development in Fate
If you only consider the HF arc as Shirou's true/full chara dev, then he is "static" in Fate. But if you accept that Fate can be a stand-alone story, then you can see his "coming of age" is his solidification of his ideals. Before the GW, he's just a teenager with grandiose dreams that he feels but never fully fleshed out for himself. If you just stopped him on the street and grilled him on his ideals, he wouldn't change his mind, but he'd be agitated that he couldn't verbalize a good retort to your pointed questions.

But after the GW, he's proven his dedication to his dreams, he had a romance with a like-minded individual, and thru his interactions with her and thru resolving her mental knot, he has fully articulated to himself and to others exactly what his ideals are. He is now set for his adult path; he has come of age.

And this is also why it's false that Fate is all SABERSABER and no one else. It's Saber + Shirou. If you don't accept Shirou in Fate as a "completed" person, then I can see how you'd feel it's all SABERSABER.

Except Arthur striving to get the holy Grail to achive his wishes need not be about the holy grail in the first place.
Symbolism is an important literary device. Saying the grail isn't the Grail, undercuts the symbolism for the sake of Nasuverse-babble which contributes nothing to the basic story themes. I can strip off ALL of the Nasuverse-babble, and Fate would still be Fate with a few very minor changes.

And really, 'convulated Japan anime logic'? What about the "There is always a third choice" thing you mentioned two paragraphs ago? Both UBW and HF tell a better story becuse they focus on Shirou as a character as well on other character (For instance the route Heroines), while Fate is wlways about Saber.
What/where is this quote of mine you're talking about?
I didn't say UBW and HF are bad stories. Just that Fate is the most accessible of them all (which is IMO why it's the most popular) because you don't have to know Nasuverse to fully enjoy it, and because its themes are less buried under Nasu's complex philosophical wrangling and more pure superhero.

An analogy is the Matrix trilogy, except that UBW and HF doesn't suck. Nasu does start piling on the layers, though, same as Matrix 2 and 3.

SITB

2012-01-27, 06:15 AM

My point is, the entire point of being a superhero in any media, is the protag will "defy Vulcan logic" which says "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and do the illogical thing of trying to save everybody, AND HE SUCCEEDS AT IT. That's the definition of being a superhero. If you do the logical thing, then you become the Vulcan sidekick that the superhero makes fun of.

Which is why I say Fate is the most publicly accessible storyline. The appeal of HF is not as universal.

Why the should F/SN conform to your defentions of superhero? Espically since UBw and HF is all about the flaws inherent in the idea taken to different conclusions. Not everyone likes superhero stories, don't assume that just because you like superheroes then every story which uses the term must conform to your standards which happen to be universal.

If you only consider the HF arc as Shirou's true/full chara dev, then he is "static" in Fate. But if you accept that Fate can be a stand-alone story, then you can see his "coming of age" is his solidification of his ideals. Before the GW, he's just a teenager with grandiose dreams that he feels but never fully fleshed out for himself. If you just stopped him on the street and grilled him on his ideals, he wouldn't change his mind, but he'd be agitated that he couldn't verbalize a good retort to your pointed questions.

But after the GW, he's proven his dedication to his dreams, he had a romance with a like-minded individual, and thru his interactions with her and thru resolving her mental knot, he has fully articulated to himself and to others exactly what his ideals are. He is now set for his adult path; he has come of age.

And this is also why it's false that Fate is all SABERSABER and no one else. It's Saber + Shirou. If you don't accept Shirou in Fate as a "completed" person, then I can see how you'd feel it's all SABERSABER.[/QOUTE]

Not really, Shirou never had to put his ideals on the line in Fate, at best he only has to deal with death and Shirou doesn't value his own life. His goals throughout Fate remain the same as the were at the start; show me where they changed or how. Throughout the whole route he ostensibly focuses on romancing Saber while at the very end you get that he wants to try and save Saber... which is only explained why he did so in UBW and HF. Shirou's character in Fate is dependant only on Saber.

I don't think that HF is the one true path that Shirou takes, I do think that through both HF and UBW the narrative explores several different paths of Shirou's character arc (either giving up his ideals or choosing to pursue them). Shirou comes no closer to understand or articualte his ideals at then end of Fate then at the start he has no growth other than romancing Saber.

[QUOTE]Symbolism is an important literary device. Saying the grail isn't the Grail, undercuts the symbolism for the sake of Nasuverse-babble which contributes nothing to the basic story themes. I can strip off ALL of the Nasuverse-babble, and Fate would still be Fate with a few very minor changes.

Except the distinction is still very useful (explaining why the Grail is corrupted, or why Ilya/Sakura/Shinji are vessels for the grail and other assorted plot parts). Also, what do you define as Nasuverse babble?

Also, what symbolisim? that King Arthur still searches for the holy Grail? Because that's all that I can think about that pretains to it origin as the real Holy Grail.

What/where is this quote of mine you're talking about?
I didn't say UBW and HF are bad stories. Just that Fate is the most accessible of them all (which is IMO why it's the most popular) because you don't have to know Nasuverse to fully enjoy it, and because its themes are less buried under Nasu's complex philosophical wrangling and more pure superhero.

You posted :"...And none of it hampered by Japanese quirks of storytelling: you can fully enjoy Fate without knowing anything about Nasuverse."

And almost everyone I have seen that talks about F/SN prefers either HF or UBW and fate gets second place simply because of the marked diffrence between both of those routes that alienates people who enjoy either. Fate is 'the most popular' only because it was the only one animated.

None of UBW themes are buried under 'Nasu's complex philosophical wrangling' and are far more entertaining then a pure superhero story beacuse if I wanted to read a pure superhero story I could easily read one of the many many Superman/Batman/GreenLantern comic books.

An analogy is the Matrix trilogy, except that UBW and HF doesn't suck. Nasu does start piling on the layers, though, same as Matrix 2 and 3.

Well yes, because Fate was pretty bare bones aside from Saber.

MLai

2012-01-27, 07:27 AM

Preface: I have no problem with ppl who dislike Saber, or who like UBW/HF over Fate. I can even see why. I was simply giving my idea on why Fate is "most known/ most popular."

Why the should F/SN conform to your defentions of superhero? Espically since UBw and HF is all about the flaws inherent in the idea taken to different conclusions. Not everyone likes superhero stories, don't assume that just because you like superheroes then every story which uses the term must conform to your standards which happen to be universal.
It's not my definition. I thought I made it clear that it's the common definition, and Fate conforming to it is why it's easily accessible.

"Not everyone likes superhero stories"? Riiiight, which explains all the Superman/Batman/Spiderman/Ironman/etcman movies? Please don't argue just to argue. I was simply giving my impression on why Fate is more accessible to the most ppl and why Saber is the face of FSN. I never said you can't like UBW/HF.

His goals throughout Fate remain the same as the were at the start; show me where they changed or how.
I never said he changed in Fate. I said he came of age. His ideals were solidified, and overcame the trial by fire and temptation of the devil('s advocate). He's set on his adult path; he came of age.

Saber is an important part of that, because they were foils of each other. That's part of coming-of-age: finding and making that significant connection with another person, and defining yourself while forming that more mature level of relationship. It's why a whole lot of coming-of-age stories involve a romance (but not always, and also not all young romance is about coming-of-age).

Except the distinction is still very useful (explaining why the Grail is corrupted, or why Ilya/Sakura/Shinji are vessels for the grail and other assorted plot parts). Also, what do you define as Nasuverse babble?
Everything you just mentioned, can be removed and the story (Fate alone) is just fine without it. For example, Kotomine could simply be using Ilya as some sort of sacrifice or mana catalyst etc.

I define Nasuverse babble as everything like what you just mentioned. You might immediately ask "Then how do you explain the grail containing evil?" Well, how did Fate (alone) explain it? There are a ton of legit excuses an author can use, if he's not interested in creating a system of technobabble for a continuing franchise.

Also, what symbolisim? that King Arthur still searches for the holy Grail? Because that's all that I can think about that pretains to it origin as the real Holy Grail.
The original works of the Arthurian myth was stuffed with deeper meaning when regarding the Grail. I mean, just read the books analyzing the King Arthur classic romances.

So when the story says GRAIL war, and King Arthur. Immediately any Arthurian afficionado can start making the mental connections and thinking about what it means for Saber, both for her and for the literary themes. And how Saber compares to the traditional Arthur, etc etc. But as soon as Kotomine says "Oh but it's not really THE grail," all that is destroyed.

I kind of had the same letdown when Sasake Kojirou said "oh but I'm not the real SK." WTF. Why even bother using awesome mythological heroes then? Why Hercules? Just use Bob The Really Strong Guy. Just use Mary Ann The Tragically Hot Wiccan. Another example of Nasuverse babble.

You posted :"...And none of it hampered by Japanese quirks of storytelling: you can fully enjoy Fate without knowing anything about Nasuverse."
Yes, I said that.

And almost everyone I have seen that talks about F/SN prefers either HF or UBW and fate gets second place simply because of the marked diffrence between both of those routes that alienates people who enjoy either. Fate is 'the most popular' only because it was the only one animated.
AFAIK, Type_Moon aficionados often prefer UBW/HF, but the general internet public seems to always "love Saber." You contend it's because Fate got an anime. Didn't seem to work for Tsukihime. Therefore I feel it's something deeper than just having an anime.

None of UBW themes are buried under 'Nasu's complex philosophical wrangling' and are far more entertaining then a pure superhero story
That's your opinion, but Joe Public seems to like Fate/Saber more.

Which is why I raised the Matrix trilogy analogy: More complex does not automatically equal better. And simple/basic hero story doesn't automatically mean "Oh it's just a barebones superhero story I can just go read Superman."

I reiterate UBW/HF does not suck like Matrix 2/3; the analogy is only to show the previous sentence.

Prime32

2012-01-27, 08:28 AM

Um... liking UBW doesn't mean you hate Saber, or vice versa. :smallconfused:

And Kotomine's thing wasn't "This isn't the Holy Grail", it was "There are many things that have been called the Holy Grail, and this is one of the most deserving of that name". Saber's deal with the planet was to attain the Holy Grail, and it gave her that one - that should be enough to consider it legitimate.

AFAIK, Type_Moon aficionados often prefer UBW/HF, but the general internet public seems to always "love Saber." You contend it's because Fate got an anime. Didn't seem to work for Tsukihime. Therefore I feel it's something deeper than just having an anime.The difference is that FSN had a good anime. Tsukihime stripped out characterisation and never explained what was going on.

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7SMyt4dogU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWlK24U_g68

SITB

2012-01-27, 08:44 AM

Preface: I have no problem with ppl who dislike Saber, or who like UBW/HF over Fate. I can even see why. I was simply giving my idea on why Fate is "most known/ most popular."

Becuse Fate had an anime released. Did you even read the original VN? Because a lot of people I see talikng about F/SN only watched the anime.

It's not my definition. I thought I made it clear that it's the common definition, and Fate conforming to it is why it's easily accessible.

"Not everyone likes superhero stories"? Riiiight, which explains all the Superman/Batman/Spiderman/Ironman/etcman movies? Please don't argue just to argue. I was simply giving my impression on why Fate is more accessible to the most ppl and why Saber is the face of FSN. I never said you can't like UBW/HF.

How does Fate conform to the superhero genre? The only connection it has is that Shirou wants to become one and UBW/HF deals with his struggles to attain that.

Remind me agian how much people wnet to see the Twilight movies? Or Batman and Robin? The fact that a lot of people see diffreent movies don't say a lot about the quality of those movies. And VNs are extremely niche and thus most people don't hear about them; while anime is more popular.

I never said he changed in Fate. I said he came of age. His ideals were solidified, and overcame the trial by fire and temptation of the devil('s advocate). He's set on his adult path; he came of age.

Then what is the point of coming of age story if not to show how the protagonist changed from when he was a callow youth to as he is at the end of the story? If Shirou didn't learn form his experiences and changed then he didn't actually move from his postion at the start of Fate.

Which means he is still a 'kid' and not an 'adult'.

Saber is an important part of that, because they were foils of each other. That's part of coming-of-age: finding and making that significant connection with another person, and defining yourself while forming that more mature level of relationship. It's why a whole lot of coming-of-age stories involve a romance (but not always, and also not all young romance is about coming-of-age).

Except part of the romance theme involves changing yourself and your partner and Shirou never changed. Hell, F/Z had a btter coming of age story and didn't involve romance at all, siimply an indvidual tempred by his experiences andchanged to a more matured person.

Everything you just mentioned, can be removed and the story (Fate alone) is just fine without it. For example, Kotomine could simply be using Ilya as some sort of sacrifice or mana catalyst etc.

But, suprise suprise, F/SN isn't about Fate alone. it's about all the different routes and seeing the different ways the characters could be developed. By your logic someone can just as easily drop all the supernatural elements of the story and set it as a high-school comedy. Because it will still be the same arc.

I define Nasuverse babble as everything like what you just mentioned. You might immediately ask "Then how do you explain the grail containing evil?" Well, how did Fate (alone) explain it? There are a ton of legit excuses an author can use, if he's not interested in creating a system of technobabble for a continuing franchise.

Except it's al connected to the story and self contained taking F/SN proper rather then simply Fate. It's not like F/SN is syndicated weekly; all the answer are used during the other routes. Only Fate tands alone because the anime only adapted that route.

The original works of the Arthurian myth was stuffed with deeper meaning when regarding the Grail. I mean, just read the books analyzing the King Arthur classic romances.

So when the story says GRAIL war, and King Arthur. Immediately any Arthurian afficionado can start making the mental connections and thinking about what it means for Saber, both for her and for the literary themes. And how Saber compares to the traditional Arthur, etc etc. But as soon as Kotomine says "Oh but it's not really THE grail," all that is destroyed.

I was unawre of King Arthur wanting to use the grail to go back in time to reverse his rule as a king. (Also, Kotomine mentiones that the holy grail of the war is not the real one during day 3, 4 scenes after Saber is summoned while Saber is revealed to be Arthur around Day 9). And really enlighten me, what symbolisim does the holy Grail possess if it were true rather then being a fake as it relates to F/SN? Because I sure as hell doesn't see any.

Hell, I don't even remember the holy grail granting wishes to anyone who possessed it.

I kind of had the same letdown when Sasake Kojirou said "oh but I'm not the real SK." WTF. Why even bother using awesome mythological heroes then? Why Hercules? Just use Bob The Really Strong Guy. Just use Mary Ann The Tragically Hot Wiccan. Another example of Nasuverse babble.

Because it allows Nasu to draw upon the myths of those characters to structure their personalties/powers? And he had a conscious not to use the holy Grail for those.

AFAIK, Type_Moon aficionados often prefer UBW/HF, but the general internet public seems to always "love Saber." You contend it's because Fate got an anime. Didn't seem to work for Tsukihime. Therefore I feel it's something deeper than just having an anime.

If by 'Type_Moon aficionados' you mean people who actually read the VN rather then simply watched the anime then sure.

And I can easily claim this for Fate becuase while F/SN anime was mediocre, Tsukihime anime is usually claimed to not exist given how bad it was.

That's your opinion, but Joe Public seems to like Fate/Saber more.

Which is why I raised the Matrix trilogy analogy: More complex does not automatically equal better. And simple/basic hero story doesn't automatically mean "Oh it's just a barebones superhero story I can just go read Superman."

Show me Joe public who actually read the VN and still likes Fate more and then I will be swayed. UBW did the coming-of-age story of Fate ten times better, due to Shirou actually changing and acknowledging his own limits. While Fate is just 'boy meets magical girl'.

Remined me again how succesful and liked are the stories where Superman is never challanged more tha usual and the plot resolves in the same way as it did in the prevois issue? That whole coat of paint (or rather 'complexity') is what sets it apart from the stories before and more entertaining then a rehash of other stories.

I reiterate UBW/HF does not suck like Matrix 2/3; the analogy is only to show the previous sentence.

If you are arguing that UBW and HF have more depth then Fate, I agree. But it's not a good thing for Fate.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-27, 09:59 AM

I can't really see how fighting Madea is les awesome then Herc, she gets one shot at beating Herc and then fails; contrast Madea which Souchirou had to step in and save Caster in order dor Rin to fail.

Yeah if you don't see the difference we are not going to agree on the basis of world views. Church and Magus association here, you pick which you think you are.

Um... liking UBW doesn't mean you hate Saber, or vice versa. :smallconfused:

Yeah I don't even dislike UBW. Considering it the least well constructed is not calling it bad.

If Fate is Saber Saber Saber and HF is Sakura Sakura Sakura then UBW is Archer Archer Archer only the supporting cast is least meaningful in UBW. It never becomes bad and Archer is of course GAR.

And Kotomine's thing wasn't "This isn't the Holy Grail", it was "There are many things that have been called the Holy Grail, and this is one of the most deserving of that name". Saber's deal with the planet was to attain the Holy Grail, and it gave her that one - that should be enough to consider it legitimate.

Given Akasha, Gaia, and Alaya its rather unlikely that the "real" Holy Grail if it exists is particularly meaningful or powerful. While the Fuyuki Holy Grail is at its core an attempt to reach Akasha and certainly of great power. So only the one most deserving of the idea of an omnipotent item has real meaning in the Nasuverse

The difference is that FSN had a good anime. Tsukihime stripped out characterisation and never explained what was going on.

Wait wait it sounds like you are saying Tsukihime had an anime. It had a pretty good manga but for a shame has never been adapted to an anime. Everyone knows this.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-27, 10:02 AM

SITB

2012-01-27, 10:07 AM

Yeah if you don't see the difference we are not going to agree on the basis of world views. Church and Magus association here, you pick which you think you are.

Then enlighten me; in Fate Rin tries a tactic to defeat Herc which easily fails and her whole contribution to the battle because Herc has more lives and is overkilled by Shirou. Contrast UBW wherein Rin's plan to defeat Caster was initially successful and Caster needed to have Souchirou to saver her (hell she held up her end better than Shirou).

In Fate she achieves nothing while in UBW she seems competent.

Yeah I don't even dislike UBW. Considering it the least well constructed is not calling it bad.

If Fate is Saber Saber Saber and HF is Sakura Sakura Sakura then UBW is Archer Archer Archer only the supporting cast is least meaningful in UBW. It never becomes bad and Archer is of course GAR.

Except that there was no supprting cast in Fate, while there was in UBW (Shirou, Rin, Caster and some awesome moements for Lancer and Berserker) and HF (Shirou, Ilya, Kotomine and some moments for Shinji/Rider). Fate only has Saber taking stage while in UBW and HF the limelight is shared between other characters too. UBW is also better with the whole coming-of-age story than Fate even if it's even worse in the romantic bond between Shirou and the Heroine (but then again it's not like it was any good in the other routes; it's just that UBW is worse in that respect than Fate).

Eldariel

2012-01-27, 10:41 AM

Except Arthur striving to get the holy Grail to achive his wishes need not be about the holy grail in the first place. The thrust of Saber's wish is to undo her being by getting a wish, it doesn't need to be about the Holy Grail in the first place (and it really isn't). Hell, Kotomine in Fate tells Shirou when he meets him that it isn't the holy Grail in the first place.

The whole point of the original myth, in the first place, is that the point of the quest is the quest itself, not the goal. Galahad finds the grail but...well, you all know the story, it would be pointless to recount it here. As such, it does fit it to the T.

Introducing characters doesn't make them complex, otherwise UBW rivals fate in it's comlexity given that Rider also appeared in UBW where she pinned Shirou to a a tree. Berserker had the same appearance as in Fate except that he gets an actual motivation now, Lancer and Gil appear for more than five minutes at the end, etc. Hell, Ilya appeared the same way in both routes, while Lancer apperas at the prologue.

UBW does drop some subtle tidbits about things only truly revealed in HF. For example, you'll find out Ilya is Shiro's step-sister if you pay close attention, and that Rider isn't all that bad of a person but has to deal with a real monster of a master.

And most of the little development "Sasaki Kojiro" got is in this path, due to him being a part of the whole Medea-cycle. He even gets his duel of purpose in the end. Lancer also got his only real development in UBW (coupled with actual screentime).

My point is, the entire point of being a superhero in any media, is the protag will "defy Vulcan logic" which says "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and do the illogical thing of trying to save everybody, AND HE SUCCEEDS AT IT. That's the definition of being a superhero. If you do the logical thing, then you become the Vulcan sidekick that the superhero makes fun of.

Which is why I say Fate is the most publicly accessible storyline. The appeal of HF is not as universal.

Aye but given the kind of world FSN creates, it's something Shiro can't succeed in. He even says as much on all paths; he basically admits that he wants to be a superhero but this world doesn't allow that.

In short, he's never a superhero in the first place; he strives towards the impossible knowing he'll never reach it but he never actually is one and thus it's never really a superhero story in the first place. So it's a false goal at best regardless of the path.

Except that there was no supprting cast in Fate, while there was in UBW (Shirou, Rin, Caster and some awesome moements for Lancer and Berserker) and HF (Shirou, Ilya, Kotomine and some moments for Shinji/Rider). Fate only has Saber taking stage while in UBW and HF the limelight is shared between other characters too. UBW is also better with the whole coming-of-age story than Fate even if it's even worse in the romantic bond between Shirou and the Heroine (but then again it's not like it was any good in the other routes; it's just that UBW is worse in that respect than Fate).

I honestly prefer the Rin-romance to the other two. I find it the most natural and believable of the bunch, and the only pure romance in the game. Of course, you've got the stupid H-scenes (at least UBW only has one, but makes up for that by it being the worst in game) but aside from that, I feel the romance is carried through UBW quite well.

It's a mature sort of a romance, with the romance itself being the whole point. The characters' emotions are first revealed, then it's shown as they slowly grow closer together and eventually act upon the relationships. That's it. No necessity, no outside factors, none of that. A simple, basic story of love in lieu of the mess that is HGW.

SITB

2012-01-27, 10:56 AM

The whole point of the original myth, in the first place, is that the point of the quest is the quest itself, not the goal. Galahad finds the grail but...well, you all know the story, it would be pointless to recount it here. As such, it does fit it to the T.

Which still has no relation to Saber's path, given that as far as I can recall Arthur didn't search for the holy Grail, and Saber herself gives up the grail no becuase she has no use for it but rather because she realizes her wish will render her comptriots sacrifices meaningless.

UBW does drop some subtle tidbits about things only truly revealed in HF. For example, you'll find out Ilya is Shiro's step-sister if you pay close attention, and that Rider isn't all that bad of a person but has to deal with a real monster of a master.

And most of the little development "Sasaki Kojiro" got is in this path, due to him being a part of the whole Medea-cycle. He even gets his duel of purpose in the end. Lancer also got his only real development in UBW (coupled with actual screentime).

That was kinda my point, everything that Fate does, UBW does better.

I honestly prefer the Rin-romance to the other two. I find it the most natural and believable of the bunch, and the only pure romance in the game. Of course, you've got the stupid H-scenes (at least UBW only has one, but makes up for that by it being the worst in game) but aside from that, I feel the romance is carried through UBW quite well.

I dislike all the romances to various degrees though, as far as I cared they were used as a prop to develop the characters, and Rin completes her character arc in HF where she comes to head with Sakura.

The overall idea of Sakura's romance, that is of two broken people clinging to each other to give themselves a reason to go on was interesting but the excution of it was kinda iffy.

Eldariel

2012-01-27, 11:04 AM

Which still has no relation to Saber's path, given that as far as I can recall Arthur didn't search for the holy Grail, and Saber herself gives up the grail no becuase she has no use for it but rather because she realizes her wish will render her comptriots sacrifices meaningless.

That was kinda my point, everything that Fate does, UBW does better.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you on either point. Consider that a sort of an addendum; I largely agree with what you said on both points.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-27, 11:15 AM

Someday, someone is going to have to remake the Tsukihime anime just to stop that damn meme. With Carnival Phantasm and Fate/Zero doing so well and generating so much money for the IP, that's actually kind of plausible now.

Maybe they will finally make an anime if Tsukihime 2 ever sees the light of day. (Including the mythic Satsuki route)

Then enlighten me; in Fate Rin tries a tactic to defeat Herc which easily fails and her whole contribution to the battle because Herc has more lives and is overkilled by Shirou. Contrast UBW wherein Rin's plan to defeat Caster was initially successful and Caster needed to have Souchirou to saver her (hell she held up her end better than Shirou).

As I said if you don't see a difference in tier between punching out Medea and blowing Heracles head off I don't see any reason to continue an argument.

Except that there was no supprting cast in Fate

Apparently "supporting cast" is not a Concept that applies to your Type?

I have a few contacts in Atlas I'll see if they have the proper tool to alter this.

SITB

2012-01-27, 11:25 AM

As I said if you don't see a difference in tier between punching out Medea and blowing Heracles head off I don't see any reason to continue an argument.

Apparently "supporting cast" is not a Concept that applies to your Type?

I have a few contacts in Atlas I'll see if they have the proper tool to alter this.

You could, y'know, try to convince me instead of posting passive aggressive posts. I at least explained why I think Fate had no real supporting cast, what is your reason?

(Hint: supporing cast doesn't mean one dimensional characters that amount to nothing like Ilya in Fate)

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-27, 12:00 PM

You could, y'know, try to convince me instead of posting passive aggressive posts. I at least explained why I think Fate had no real supporting cast, what is your reason?

(Hint: supporing cast doesn't mean one dimensional characters that amount to nothing like Ilya in Fate)

Because you obviously don't view events in the same lens I do. I never found Ilya one dimensional in Fate, had she been a sadistic Complete Monster maybe. Simply getting further background on her is something I never felt changed this. But since I never had a problem with her character I never felt she needed to be 'rescued' as a character thus obviously don't give the same weight to later events.

But to get back to my original point any problem is certainly not something UBW fixed with one flashback or pretty much any character but Archer, Caster, and Souchirou.

Heaven's Feel expands several characters and is the completion of the mystery of the Grail War thus overall plot, Fate establishes the base of everyone setting the stage and while bringing a complete conclusion its smaller but also a complete tale. Unlimited Blade Works remains more of a diversion to explore Archer. Now Archer is still great and all, but it remains the route thinnest on characters and substance in my book.

So yeah I'll see if Atlas has a Conceptual Weapon I can use then we can throw down. I normally see myself as Magus but for this I clearly represent the Church.

SITB

2012-01-27, 12:06 PM

Because you obviously don't view events in the same lens I do. I never found Ilya one dimensional in Fate, had she been a sadistic Complete Monster maybe. Simply getting further background on her is something I never felt changed this. But since I never had a problem with her character I never felt she needed to be 'rescued' as a character thus obviously don't give the same weight to later events.

But to get back to my original point any problem is certainly not something UBW fixed with one flashback or pretty much any character but Archer, Caster, and Souchirou.

Heaven's Feel expands several characters and is the completion of the mystery of the Grail War thus overall plot, Fate establishes the base of everyone setting the stage and while bringing a complete conclusion its smaller but also a complete tale. Unlimited Blade Works remains more of a diversion to explore Archer. Now Archer is still great and all, but it remains the route thinnest on characters and substance in my book.

Except all the character that were introduced in Fate were reintroduced in UBW. Ilya had practically the same introduction in UBW as in HF (and the whole "shirou oni-chan :3" was way back in the second day too). Lancer only appears in the prolouge of Fate in any meaningful capacity; while getting more screentime in UBW. Berserker spends his whole time (two days) as a speedbump with no characterisation in Fate, and Gil gets diffrenet motives rather then simply going about Saber.

And UBW dealt with both Archer and Shirou as opposed to Fate where Shirou got left out in the cold.

What character was introduced in Fate that didn't have the same introduction in UBW apart from Saber and Kotomine? And Kotomine wasn't a credible villian in Fate given that you suddenly find in the last two days that he is wholly unrepentent evil with no other character traits and only gets characterisation in HF.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-27, 12:32 PM

Except all the character that were introduced in Fate were reintroduced in UBW. Ilya had practically the same introduction in UBW as in HF (and the whole "shirou oni-chan :3" was way back in the second day too). Lancer only appears in the prolouge of Fate in any meaningful capacity; while getting more screentime in UBW. Berserker spends his whole time (two days) as a speedbump with no characterisation in Fate, and Gil gets diffrenet motives rather then simply going about Saber.

What character was inroduced in Fate that didn't have the same introduction in UBW apart from Saber and Kotomine? And Kotomine wasn't a credible villian in Fate given that you suddenly find in the last two days that he is wholly unrepentent evil with no other character traits and only gets characterisation in HF.

Yes Ilya had the same introduction. The same is the limitation, all the weight is being borrowed from the previous route. Archer's presence in the ensuing fight is second major deviation in the course of events. Its very openly a "What If" contrast to Fate banking on you remembering how badly things went in the fight with Fate.

Now Lancer does get his best treatment in UBW, but even here he's still one of the least consequential Servants. He's maybe incrementally more important to UBW then True Assassin is to HF... no actually I think True Assassin is more important in HF but Lancer at least gets a presence in all three so he comes out better overall. Still only Assassin gets less then either so its all just rounding out the bottom.

And you keep bringing up "speedbumps" like its a problem, which is a terrible Flanderization of the six antagonists of Fate. As I see it you obviously interpret events with a much more hostile view point that I do not agree with. You aren't going to change my interpretation though with restating yours. I never saw a problem with Fate so its not something another route can really "fix" they can only add and UBW adds the least because Caster is pretty uninteresting (though being a central antagonist she comes off better then Lancer, True Assassin and Assassin) leaving it just the Archer show. Which still isn't a bad show.

SITB

2012-01-27, 12:47 PM

Yes Ilya had the same introduction. The same is the limitation, all the weight is being borrowed from the previous route. Archer's presence in the ensuing fight is second major deviation in the course of events. Its very openly a "What If" contrast to Fate banking on you remembering how badly things went in the fight with Fate.

A waht if scenario banking on a what if? Colour me suprised.

(Except that Berserker death had more emotional impact once the flashback fleshed his realtionship with Ilya appeared)

Now Lancer does get his best treatment in UBW, but even here he's still one of the least consequential Servants. He's maybe incrementally more important to UBW then True Assassin is to HF... no actually I think True Assassin is more important in HF but Lancer at least gets a presence in all three so he comes out better overall. Still only Assassin gets less then either so its all just rounding out the bottom.

Lancer saves Rin and gets to do cool stuff. TA merely acts as a distraction to other Servants before there are killed by the Shadow apart from where he is 'beaten' by Kotomine.

And really, who gets any character time then?

Fate:Saver.
UBW:Shirou, Archer Caster
HF:Shirou, Sakura, Kotomine, Ilya.

Rin appears in all routes but only acts more than a device to expostian at Shirou in UBW and HF. How is Fate better constructed again?

And you keep bringing up "speedbumps" like its a problem, which is a terrible Flanderization of the six antagonists of Fate. As I see it you obviously interpret events with a much more hostile view point that I do not agree with. You aren't going to change my interpretation though with restating yours. I never saw a problem with Fate so its not something another route can really "fix" they can only add and UBW adds the least because Caster is pretty uninteresting (though being a central antagonist she comes off better then Lancer, True Assassin and Assassin) leaving it just the Archer show. Which still isn't a bad show.

How are the antagonists more than speedbump? Rider and Berserker get no characterisation apart from being enemy Servants. They appear and then die without any more meaningful impact to the story.

Kotomine only relevance in Fate is to give Shirou a human opponent to fight and only gets characterised as something more than genericlly evil in HF. Ilya remains the same throughout the whole route without expending on her character even for a little bit and Gil is infatuated with Saber and thus his only goal is to clash with Shirou over a love triangle.

Contrast Caster in UBW which had a theme of tragic unrequited love, or Archer itself which tested Shirou's ideals.

(Also, if Caster had a lot of screentime it doesn' fall ino the same pit as Fate with it's over focusing on Saber)

MLai

2012-01-27, 01:30 PM

Um... liking UBW doesn't mean you hate Saber, or vice versa.
However, SITB has an annoying attitude. And 1 of the only reason I can think of for his obnoxiousness is maybe he dislikes Saber so he projects that dislike on anyone who says anything positive about Fate.

And Kotomine's thing wasn't "This isn't the Holy Grail", it was "There are many things that have been called the Holy Grail, and this is one of the most deserving of that name".
Same deal. Basically hyping up the object, but then immediately cutting it down. Why even bother in the first place, then?

The difference is that FSN had a good anime. Tsukihime stripped out characterisation and never explained what was going on.
Well, according to SITB, nothing can save Fate.

@ SITB:

Becuse Fate had an anime released. Did you even read the original VN? Because a lot of people I see talikng about F/SN only watched the anime.
How about I make baseless assumptions about you? Oh, I don't like what you say, so I'm going to question your merits, rather than discuss the material itself. Could I have made all the references to Nasuverse if I never read any of it?

Remind me agian how much people wnet to see the Twilight movies? Or Batman and Robin? The fact that a lot of people see diffreent movies don't say a lot about the quality of those movies.
What do **** movies have to do with Fate? So Fate is ****, but since it has an anime it's liked better? Again, then why didn't it work for Tsukihime?

Then what is the point of coming of age story if not to show how the protagonist changed from when he was a callow youth to as he is at the end of the story? If Shirou didn't learn form his experiences and changed then he didn't actually move from his postion at the start of Fate.
He didn't "change his mind." He matured in his ideals. His ideals went from half-formed, untried, untested... to fully-formed, tried, tested. He stood up and showed that this isn't just a childhood daydream, but he's willing and able to act on it. His ideals survived the forging process.

Look at Luke Skywalker. He always was lawful good. He didn't start the story as an Empire loyalist and then was "convinced" he should become a rebel. ANH was his coming-of-age story too.

Hell, F/Z had a btter coming of age story and didn't involve romance at all, siimply an indvidual tempred by his experiences andchanged to a more matured person.
So basically you disagree vehemently with me and then say exactly the same thing I kept saying.

But, suprise suprise, F/SN isn't about Fate alone. it's about all the different routes and seeing the different ways the characters could be developed. By your logic someone can just as easily drop all the supernatural elements of the story and set it as a high-school comedy. Because it will still be the same arc.
I'm enduring your patronizing attitude to have a civil discussion but it's becoming difficult.

Only Fate tands alone because the anime only adapted that route.
Fate stands alone because you don't need to read the Nasu instruction manual to understand everything important in it. UBW/HF gradually introduces more and more Nasuverse specific mechanisms and it becomes harder to fully appreciate the story without understanding Nasuverse. Nothing to do with the anime.

I was unawre of King Arthur wanting to use the grail to go back in time to reverse his rule as a king... Hell, I don't even remember the holy grail granting wishes to anyone who possessed it.
If you want to continue discussion on Arthurian mythos, can the patronizing attitude and I'll consider it.

And I can easily claim this for Fate becuase while F/SN anime was mediocre, Tsukihime anime is usually claimed to not exist given how bad it was.
So if quality matters, then how did Twilight or Batman/Robin support whatever you were trying to say?

Show me Joe public who actually read the VN and still likes Fate more and then I will be swayed.
*Raises hand.*

But you're not swayed, are you? No, because I dare to like Fate even after reading the VN, Hollow/Ataraxia, and lurking at Mirror Moon forum reading everything in sight for a year.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't really see Fate's deeper layer. It does have one. Or maybe you do, but you're arguing so hard it appears as if you don't.

All 3 routes have their depth. But Fate's is more accessible to the Western public because (1) it's more in line with Western values and therefore more emotionally identifiable, and (2) it's not as entrenched in the didactic convolutions that Japanese authors like to exercise. That's my point.

@ Eldariel:

Aye but given the kind of world FSN creates, it's something Shiro can't succeed in. He even says as much on all paths; he basically admits that he wants to be a superhero but this world doesn't allow that.
Which is why I always qualify "if you accept Fate as a stand-alone story."

It's a mature sort of a romance, with the romance itself being the whole point. The characters' emotions are first revealed, then it's shown as they slowly grow closer together and eventually act upon the relationships. That's it. No necessity, no outside factors, none of that. A simple, basic story of love in lieu of the mess that is HGW.
I understand and agree with your characterization of Rin-Shirou's relationship. However, I disagree that the others are poor because they're not "normal." Reading Wuthering Heights has corrupted me into appreciating the dramatic beauty of intense but deformed relationships.

Which still has no relation to Saber's path, given that as far as I can recall Arthur didn't search for the holy Grail, and Saber herself gives up the grail no becuase she has no use for it but rather because she realizes her wish will render her comptriots sacrifices meaningless.
As I said, I don't intend to answer you. But I'll say this. For someone (me) who is familiar with Arthurian mythos and some of their deeper meanings, I feel that Nasu did King Arthur wonderful justice in the character of Saber. For Arthur, Nasu definitely didn't just read a Wikipedia article and then throw up a Jpnese MMO version of said character. He really felt a deep compassion and sensitivity for Arthur while writing "him". Yeah sure, he took big liberties such as making Arthur "cold/distant to the people," but he gets it deep down.

Eldariel

2012-01-27, 02:05 PM

Maybe they will finally make an anime if Tsukihime 2 ever sees the light of day. (Including the mythic Satsuki route)

Isn't Sacchin route supposed to be in the Tsukihime remake? It's a project separate from Tsukihime 2 far as I understand.

SITB

2012-01-27, 02:08 PM

Well, according to SITB, nothing can save Fate.

Untrue, while I dislike the strong romance theme presented in this route I can understand why it's there. My main beef is that it solely focused on Saber.

Give Shirou more character, have other characters be more involved other than apperaing to die to Saber otr no moving at all from their first apperance and then Fate will be better.

How about I make baseless assumptions about you? Oh, I don't like what you say, so I'm going to question your merits, rather than discuss the material itself. Could I have made all the references to Nasuverse if I never read any of it?

Well, I made this assumption because you said that it felt cheap for suddenly revealing that the HGW isn't about the holy Grail which was mentione right at the begining of the novel.

The second part was referring to your point that Fate is more liked then other routes where I challaneged that by pointing out that I most of the polple I read that said they liked Fate only watched the anime. It wsan't supposed to be an attack agianst you but rather attacking the veiwpoint that Fate is better liked.

What do **** movies have to do with Fate? So Fate is ****, but since it has an anime it's liked better? Again, then why didn't it work for Tsukihime?

You pointed out the superhero movies are well liked because a lot of people see them, I pointed out that several superhero movies sucked and still got a lot of reviews.

And regarding the second point, VNs are niche while anime is less so. So more peole know about F/SN through the anime rather then the VN itself (hell, I only knew about the VN after searching for information aout the anime).

And as I and Prime32 and Soras Teva Gee said, the Tsukihime anime is considered terrible.

He didn't "change his mind." He matured in his ideals. His ideals went from half-formed, untried, untested... to fully-formed, tried, tested. He stood up and showed that this isn't just a childhood daydream, but he's willing and able to act on it. His ideals survived the forging process.

Look at Luke Skywalker. He always was lawful good. He didn't start the story as an Empire loyalist and then was "convinced" he should become a rebel. ANH was his coming-of-age story too.

You mean apart from his sudden dedication to defeat the empire he didn't possess at the start of the story? a coming-of-age story relies upon the protagonist maturing and Shirou didn't change at all during Fate.

Fate stands alone because you don't need to read the Nasu instruction manual to understand everything important in it. UBW/HF gradually introduces more and more Nasuverse specific mechanisms and it becomes harder to fully appreciate the story without understanding Nasuverse. Nothing to do with the anime.

Then how about all the Tracing stuff Shirou does? Or the expalnation of the holy Grail system and Heroic spirts and Saber's bargin. How is UBW more complex in this way then Fate? The only real sticking mechanism is that Shirou downloads skills from Archer and Fate has Saber stopping in time.

So if quality matters, then how did Twilight or Batman/Robin support whatever you were trying to say?

It soens't, but Tsukihime was apparently inchoerent even by anime standards

*Raises hand.*

But you're not swayed, are you? No, because I dare to like Fate even after reading the VN, Hollow/Ataraxia, and lurking at Mirror Moon forum reading everything in sight for a year.

Joe public is not a single person, otherwise I misunderstood your point; as far as I understood you were talking abput the general public rather than the mere existacne of people who prefer Fate. You liking Fate doesn't suddenly turm you into my nemsis or anything silly like that, but it still doesn't change the value of the Fate route itself.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't really see Fate's deeper layer. It does have one. Or maybe you do, but you're arguing so hard it appears as if you don't.

All 3 routes have their depth. But Fate's is more accessible to the Western public because (1) it's more in line with Western values and therefore more emotionally identifiable, and (2) it's not as entrenched in the didactic convolutions that Japanese authors like to exercise. That's my point.

As I said, I don't intend to answer you. But I'll say this. For someone (me) who is familiar with Arthurian mythos and some of their deeper meanings, I feel that Nasu did King Arthur wonderful justice in the character of Saber. For Arthur, Nasu definitely didn't just read a Wikipedia article and then throw up a Jpnese MMO version of said character. He really felt a deep compassion and sensitivity for Arthur while writing "him". Yeah sure, he took big liberties such as making Arthur "cold/distant to the people," but he gets it deep down.

I am genuinely curios about what Fate deeper meaning is because I honestly don't see that (unless you talk about Shirou's coming of age story which I argued against).

EDIT: To punctuate my point, posting how Nasu did justice by writing Saber and educating people how don't know about this subjecy (f'r instance me) will be by far the best post of this thread.

Eldariel

2012-01-27, 02:11 PM

I understand and agree with your characterization of Rin-Shirou's relationship. However, I disagree that the others are poor because they're not "normal." Reading Wuthering Heights has corrupted me into appreciating the dramatic beauty of intense but deformed relationships.

I don't find the others poor, necessarily, I just prefer the Rin-Shiro relationship to the others. I was mostly responding to the sentiment that their romance isn't believable; I find it the most believable out of the bunch. That is not to say the others don't work, either; I find they're all at least somewhat decently written.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-27, 03:19 PM

Isn't Sacchin route supposed to be in the Tsukihime remake? It's a project separate from Tsukihime 2 far as I understand.

I've never been clear on which if any will materialize and consider both mere phantasms until the prana costs have been paid to actualize them in reality as true incarnations.

I am genuinely curios about what Fate deeper meaning is because I honestly don't see that (unless you talk about Shirou's coming of age story which I argued against).

There's the general theme of teamwork running through the route, its not insignificant that each of the three antagonist arcs are pairs. Rider and Shinji are a flawed abusive relationship. Ilya and Berzerker are a disturbing unity. Gil and Kotomine are a black mirror on Saber and Shirou.

Then there's Shirou's struggle to put principles into action which you seem to not like. Admittedly the short comings are laid bare pretty early by Kotomine this inherent problem is not really resolved until HF though the answer is implied in UBW ending as something Rin's figured out and promises Archer to put into practice. Spoiler: Shirou needs to get laid. Often. That said choosing not to deconstruct Shirou here there is still a complete ending.

And of course Saber. Who of course learns to appreciate her existential value as human being and that not reaching the ending she wished makes her no less the champion of her unreachable utopia. Though there's a few ways to take the ending that was something I got. Chief among learning to still be a human being is also that she actually does need help and support and companionship.

Oh and lest we forget the displaying of the Grail as corrupt. Which I always took as a really long version of "if it sounds to good to be true it is" and that miracles are not so easy. With a dash of that the true miracles are not so grand.

I don't find the others poor, necessarily, I just prefer the Rin-Shiro relationship to the others. I was mostly responding to the sentiment that their romance isn't believable; I find it the most believable out of the bunch. That is not to say the others don't work, either; I find they're all at least somewhat decently written.

I again find myself in loose agreement, though by that same realistic token Rin and Shirou are such that it wouldn't be out of character to find out that after awhile they grew apart and went separate ways. Which isn't unrealistic either since it happens all the time. And while easily the most realistic I'm kinda a sucker for the more grand ones scene in the other routes as stories

Though I prefer Saber I loosely accept the pseudo-quasi canon answer kinda has to be Sakura. (Though cutting across time and reality in a miracle one can pair Archer as Shirou with Saber beyond the bounds of time and existance in a true miracle)

MLai

2012-01-27, 10:40 PM

I made this assumption because you said that it felt cheap for suddenly revealing that the HGW isn't about the holy Grail which was mentione right at the begining of the novel.
I do feel it's cheap and self-defeating. If you're going to come right out in Ch.2-3 and say "It's not the Christian Holy Grail you're thinking of," then why even bother hyping it as "The Grail" in the first place? It's the beginning of the road to me finally saying "**** this shyte" to all of Nasuverse's rules, because they are impeding my enjoyment of the underlying story.

I like analogies. Another analogy which came to my mind is Highlander 1 (where it's all mystical and unexplained) vs Highlander 2 (where they're explained as Martians or some such shyte).

I challaneged that by pointing out that I most of the polple I read that said they liked Fate only watched the anime.
Well, UBW has a movie. And also F/Z has anime. We'll see what happens with an equalized playing field.

You pointed out the superhero movies are well liked because a lot of people see them, I pointed out that several superhero movies sucked and still got a lot of reviews.
You misunderstood, then. I pointed out that the basic premise of superheroes (the Mythic Hero) is well liked, hence why their movies are popular.

And as I and Prime32 and Soras Teva Gee said, the Tsukihime anime is considered terrible.
And Fate the anime has its own problems too. Studio Deen isn't the greatest animation studio; some of their work downright sucks (in animation quality). And then the anime's plot itself is cobbled together from the 3 routes. In some cases it works but in others not as well.

I'll catch fire for this but Tsukihime the anime isn't so terrible. It's not awesome or anything but it only catches so much hate because some ppl are such loyal fans of the VN. Probably. I never read the Tsukihime VNs. But that's why I'm unbiased enough to say that the anime isn't that bad. It's TV anime. I've seen far worse.

You mean apart from his sudden dedication to defeat the empire he didn't possess at the start of the story? a coming-of-age story relies upon the protagonist maturing and Shirou didn't change at all during Fate.
I'm not going to belabor this point. As Sora noted, you're firm in your notion that Shirou is static in Fate. I guess it's because you only consider what he went thru in UBW/HF as valid growth.

Then how about all the Tracing stuff Shirou does?
It's kickass "magic visualization." Shirou is an adolescent superhero discovering his powers, like young Peter Parker. For Fate, that's all you need to know.

Or the expalnation of the holy Grail system and Heroic spirts and Saber's bargin.
A lot of it is unnecessary. I've always felt that Fate can be made Western enough for even Hollywood, if it just pared away or modified a lot of the Nasu. Such as:

1. It's the real Holy Grail (but God gets a kick out of testing you with it, like in the end of The Last Crusade).
2. As Kotomine said, "the miracle of the Grail allows mages to summon the spirits of mythical heroes in this contest. They're mostly reined in under your control with these magical seals, but remember they all have strong wills, obviously." Done. We don't need to know about Gaia or ToH or Counter Guardians or whatever.
3. Saber's bargain is very poetic, and sensitive to King Arthur. It stays. But the bargain would be made with a plea to God, not with Gaia or anything Nasu. Done. Whether Saber is a spirit made flesh, or a still-living person is unimportant, that's a nitpick. For Hollywood, none of the heroes can dematerialize and the show would still work. Probably work even better.

It soens't, but Tsukihime was apparently inchoerent even by anime standards
I watched it without knowing much about Tsukihime (aside from "our vampires are different") and I had no problems following the plot.

To punctuate my point, posting how Nasu did justice by writing Saber and educating people how don't know about this subjecy (f'r instance me) will be by far the best post of this thread.
There were gargantuan threads about this in Mirror Moon, discussed by ppl who knew about both King Arthur and Nasuverse better than me. It's too much to repeat. Suffice it to say, it's something that a lot of Arthurian enthusiasts can see and discuss in depth about. I saved the discussions; I'd have to find those backup CDs.

Fate isn't about just Saber, even given the above. Shirou is a part of Saber in Fate. Without Shirou there is no Saber as Saber. While I agree Shirou-Rin is the most "normal" relationship, IMO I get the sense that Shirou-Saber is the most heart-etching match. Whereas Shirou-Rin can break up as per "normal/healthy" young adult relationships, it would never happen with Shirou-Saber. My praise of Nasu's Arthur also extends to Shirou-Saber as one of the most memorable romances I've ever read, showing a compassion for Arthur which I've never seen before from another writer, even Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I just don't see that happening if the story was all SaberSaberSaber. Without parity, Shirou couldn't have played opposite Saber in a story this good. Especially given my obvious King Arthur bias.

Eldariel

2012-01-27, 11:14 PM

I'll catch fire for this but Tsukihime the anime isn't so terrible. It's not awesome or anything but it only catches so much hate because some ppl are such loyal fans of the VN. Probably. I never read the Tsukihime VNs. But that's why I'm unbiased enough to say that the anime isn't that bad. It's TV anime. I've seen far worse.

Well, the characters pretty much lose all their characterization in the anime. It doesn't really include the backgrounds nor any real workings of what's going on. Most of the events are unexplained and the background motivations are barely touched upon.

The whole Tohno mansion is mostly an afterthought; after watching the anime, I'm pretty sure the watcher has very little about e.g. Hisui or Kohakus' characters and only a bit about Akiha, even though they're all central characters even in Arcueid's path (well, important supporting roles, at least) which the story is based upon.

Arcueid and Ciels' characters are both completely butchered. There's just precious little of the characters themselves remaining in the story. And what the frig is that amusement park episode? It makes even less sense than the rest of the story combined and somehow the anime manages to waste one of its 12 episodes on a filler. And the anime actually keeps Sacchin alive only to make him an attachment to Arihiko; I don't think they ever appear in a scene separately after that evening stroll so familiar from the VN, and the fateful promise.

More than a few scenes are made completely senseless; for instance, Shiki ran from Arcueid in their meeting. This makes sense; meeting somebody you've killed tends to instill that reaction in you. In the anime, he gets away. Which, by what we know, is about 1000 different kinds of impossible. And the fight between Shiki and Nrvqsr; I don't even know where to start. Shiki fights by cutting his arms off? And for that matter, Nrvqsr pretends to be a martial artist? And just about every single epic line from the VN was removed. The final fight? "You can't see things I can!" (followed by 15 seconds of Roa rolling his head around before something finally happens) Also, Roa/SHIKI took about 3000 different levels of retard to make that fight come out the way play out the way it did while in the VN it was more than justified.

My memory is already growing hazy but I watched the whole anime and basically wanted to hammer my head to a wall afterwards. Whatever its worth as an anime, it did Tsukihime no justice whatsoever; it was a woefully insufficient representation of one path, managing to show almost as little as Unlimited Blade Works shows in one movie over twelve episodes.

So I suppose you might be correct; it's completely impossible for me to evaluate it neutrally as an anime since I naturally expect the level of content I saw in Tsukihime itself. That the anime completely fails to deliver on many levels. It plain cuts away or just lames down the climaxes of the story and removes much of the key framework for things really making sense. And tries to tell exactly one of the stories and fails at that too. And botches up about half of the characters. What you say may be true; I have never seen it through those lenses. But regardless of how good or bad it is as an anime, it is bad Tsukihime.

MLai

2012-01-29, 01:37 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-29, 02:44 PM

NeonBlack

2012-01-29, 03:09 PM

And seriously Mana Transfer Dolphin, of all the places not to make a broader cut?

They cut Ilya's and Berserker's flashback completely, removing any kind of emotional impact from the scene altogether. And I may have to rewatch it (and I'll need to feel especially masochistic to do so) to be sure since I have forgotten the details, but I seem to remember Rin vs. Caster being also reduced to its minimal expression, thus denying Rin (remember, the heroine of this particular route) her one big shining moment of awesome.

But hey, we got Mana Dolphin instead. Good job, Deen!

Eldariel

2012-01-29, 03:16 PM

Did you just say UBW movie shows too little? I've seen the movie and read the complete text translation of the VN route(I don't want to buy the game and deal with fan patches, and I don't want to pirate it either). The movie pretty much covered everything important.

Yeah sure all the food antics are gone, etc. But what important thing in your mind wasn't covered adequately?

I don't think you should worry about fan patches; it's basically just a different installer program. Instead of running the installer on the Disc you run the English installer and that's it; it's as simple as installing anything else. The game is definitely worth playing through, IMHO, and should be easy enough to order for a reasonable price from Japan or buy on Ebay/Amazon.

As for your question, well, see above. In addition, what's missing is among others the whole introduction scene for Kuzuki (the ambush). The early fight between Shiro and Rin (which is fairly important story-wise since it's basically Archer's doing and establishes his goals; you also see the nearly-shaking Rin who's just angry she has to try and keep her promise to Archer trying her best to act a magus), which was included in the anime series btw, but was cut out of UBW, as was the fight between Shiro and Rider (or rather, Rider's test and the establishment of her character).

And then basically all the scenes with Shinji are cut away and he's basically just made a Stupid Evil villain that comes out and states "Hey, I'm evil!" until summarily getting removed. The scenes with Gilgamesh and him are fine but early on, he basically lacks presence entirely. And most of the early scenes with Rin are removed for that matter, leaving her character extremely hollow if you don't have information from some other source. In fact, the whole first ~6 days or so get precious little of anything.

Elder Tsofu

2012-01-29, 05:01 PM

Comet

2012-01-29, 05:40 PM

I haven't seen the movie yet so I can't really comment on its contents, but what people consider important vary by quite a bit. You could probably have cut down lord of the rings in the movie-adaption to one film without sacrificing the most important parts, but would it had matched the trilogy we got? Some say that the really long films we got sacrificed/altered too much as it was.

Agreed. I find some the best bits in Nasu's writing to be the ones that reinforce the 'reality' of the world. The awkward cooking, the even more awkward dining and the hilariously awkward mornings after every sex scene to name some of those moments. Funny, intentionally or not, and very relatable moments, at least to some people with very dramatic lives.
The smaller, more humble scenes and character exploration really give a sense of humanity to the whole crazy mythical over the top action going on and combine to make the whole thing into a "this is insane and nonsensical and yet I can totally see this happening!" mindset that burns my brain in just the right way.

MLai

2012-01-30, 05:37 AM

The countless minor details that actually make the Nasuverse work. One of the bigger ones is the all important point that when you have Unlimited Blade Works taking on Gate of Bablyon the former can beat the latter despite only summoning copies because it can call the weapons ever so slightly faster.
Yeah, that one is the only one I personally had a complaint with. Since that was the only thing, I didn't count it against the movie.
However, my understanding was that the former can beat the latter only because Shiro had SUPER SHOUNEN willpower. By using extreme willpower and sacrificing his own body bit by bit, he can make each of his inferior copies just a notch higher in quality, just enough to assure mutual destruction with the real blade upon clashing, like matter and antimatter. And he does this with every single blade from Gil's vault, basically betting that his human body will outlast Gil's entire mythic arsenal.

And never mind the whole thing is so short that what isn't cut out feels terribly terribly rushed.
This is true. I guess I just didn't feel it because I read the VN route's script. My mind filled in the character-building blanks and only concentrated on whether the movie covered the actiony parts. Which IMO it did, except for the above.

denying Rin her one big shining moment of awesome.
This I could forgive, because I like how it made things seem even more hopeless.

But hey, we got Mana Dolphin instead. Good job, Deen!
Hey don't complain. Deen gave us the MANA DERAGON! Even Type_Moon ran with it LMAO.

I don't think you should worry about fan patches; it's basically just a different installer program. Instead of running the installer on the Disc you run the English installer and that's it
So... no fuss whatsoever? Then I probably should buy it. I can definitely "re-read" it again; it's been years and I've forgotten most of the character-building scenes so it wouldn't be boring.

Is there any localization fuss? Like, to run a Jpnese game on my English Win XP?

Just curious, isn't reading a text-translation of a novel essentially pirating it?
Keep in mind this was back in the day when the English fan-patch was just finished with translating Fate route and was getting started on UBW, with no idea how long that would take.
So I downloaded the Chinese-translation scripts and read that.