No Magic Gestalt Campaign help

[Darkaurora00]

I have a problem, and need the assistance of you fellow players and forumgoers. I am currently in a desert campaign with a hard limit on magic, with the main enemy being a group of high powered, elementally aligned bosses that sport large amounts of magic. To compensate for this unfair advantage our DM has given us the right to use gestalt rules.

My problem comes from the fact that despite our numbers (usually 4-5 people a game) the single bosses dish out great deals of damage that cant be healed because of the lack of magic.

My character, a Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536)//Rogue lv. 7 using optimised flanking and devouring to counter these large, single opponents. Sadly I have been told by the dm that I must make a new character because I almost killed one of the elemental bosses, something that I apparently wasnt supposed to do.

What I'm asking from you all is any advice in talking to my dm about this annoyance, as well as any ideas for a new character. The party consists of a scout/fighter archer, a monk/barbarian (dont ask me how) focusing on throwing and grappling, and a Knight/fighter tank type. Books allowed are vague, but any form of magic including psionics and Bo9S has been banned. Homebrew is mostly banned unless given express approval.

[Andreaz]

My first suggestion is to allow ToB. Just ban the supernatural maneuvers, basically most of shadow hand and desert wind. The maneuvers all say when they're supernatural(cept for the jaunt lines, but just go and ban them too).

Ah, and you're screwed. Confined forever to beatstickdom.

[gbprime]

What about Marshal? If your DM will let you spend a feat to project a draconic aura, then you could be a healer of sorts that also buffs the party saving throws and enhances skills and damage while flanking (which you'll do a lot of). The draconic vigor aura is the key. If he says no, forget it.

Is Binder out too? Yes, it's a kind of magic, but in a campaign where you're fighting powerful spirit beings, a character who allows himself to be possessed by spirits to gain their power might actually fit. And the Binder isn't powerful enough to wreck a campaign.

Otherwise, the fallback would seem to be Ranger. Take the no-spells option that gets you bonus feats and load up on the favored enemy bonuses and two weapon fighting, then flank the bejeezus out of things.

[Orsen]

Well, I would suggest Factotum one side, unless magic is so strict you can't even use the Factotum abilities like Arcane Dilettante.
Otherwise maybe Water Orc Spirit Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker//Dungeon Crasher fighter. Use leap attack with PA and all the usual tricks. Depending on the group, this may be kinda cheesy, especially since you got called out on SA op.
I'm trying to think of others but super strict magic bane hurts! I almost did the same thing to my players but the forum dissuaded me.
As far as talking to your DM, I would suggest asking him what level of optimization he wants, and trying to fit in with the group. It's too bad that he's just saying you're too good though. Is it because of him or are you outshining the group as well?

[herrhauptmann]

Level 7 right?
Halfminotaur human Noncasting paladin of freedom5//rogue/barbarian (whirling frenzy wolf +spirit lion totem)/ftr/warhulk/hulking hurler.
Or something along those lines. Trade your aura of courage for something, so you can take Craven.

Seriously though, he's seriously nerfed the party by banning casters, so every fight will now be a HP grind. And one difficult fight will now put the party out of combat for a week while you heal by resting. And then the DM bans a character of yours because it was actually effective? (Ozodrin seem a bit overpowered, but whatever)

edit:Oh yeah, take leap attack+shocktrooper

[Randomguy]

I second the frenzied berserker idea. You've got a barbarian, but he's focused on damage, not grappling, so you still could use a damage dealer. Optimizing a bit for mage slaying couldn't hurt, either.
See if you can get Dragon shaman approved if you want healing, since they get a small amount.

Take the whirling frenzy variant for rage and spirit lion totem and maybe 3 levels of orc paragon if you think it makes sense thematically. Get into frenzied berserker as early as possible.

A level of ranger with whatever creature type the elementals are as favoured enemy and the favoured power attack feat.

Bonus feat variant rogue would be better than fighter if you want bonus feats, since you've already got full BAB and good hp and good fortitude saves from barbarian.

This would probably go something like: Orc paragon 3/Barbarian 3/F.B. 1//Ranger 1/bonus feat rogue 4/ Whatever you want 2 (Possibly with a level of occult slayer if you want)

Take: Power attack, leap attack, favoured power attack, cleave, destructive range, intimidating range, improved bullrush and shock trooper. You'll need to use flaws though, or take 2 levels of fighter in addition to bonus feat rogue.

I think this build would, while charging and frenzying and whirling frenzying, do 53+weapon damage per attack against a favoured enemy, and gets 4 attack on a charge.

[Metahuman1]

I second the frenzied berserker idea. You've got a barbarian, but he's focused on damage, not grappling, so you still could use a damage dealer. Optimizing a bit for mage slaying couldn't hurt, either.
See if you can get Dragon shaman approved if you want healing, since they get a small amount.

Take the whirling frenzy variant for rage and spirit lion totem and maybe 3 levels of orc paragon if you think it makes sense thematically. Get into frenzied berserker as early as possible.

A level of ranger with whatever creature type the elementals are as favoured enemy and the favoured power attack feat.

Bonus feat variant rogue would be better than fighter if you want bonus feats, since you've already got full BAB and good hp and good fortitude saves from barbarian.

This would probably go something like: Orc paragon 3/Barbarian 3/F.B. 1//Ranger 1/bonus feat rogue 4/ Whatever you want 2 (Possibly with a level of occult slayer if you want)

Take: Power attack, leap attack, favoured power attack, cleave, destructive range, intimidating range, improved bullrush and shock trooper. You'll need to use flaws though, or take 2 levels of fighter in addition to bonus feat rogue.

I think this build would, while charging and frenzying and whirling frenzying, do 53+weapon damage per attack against a favored enemy, and gets 4 attack on a charge.

Add too this.

Get the favored environment variant for Ranger if the fights are all taking place actually in the desert. That way, EVERYTHING suddenly becomes suseptable to favored power attack, meaning you aren't required to charge for the 3-1 trade off. That can come in handy if the DM figures out the charge and kill trick and starts swarming your character to try and nerf it.

[herrhauptmann]

Add too this.

Get the favored environment variant for Ranger if the fights are all taking place actually in the desert. That way, EVERYTHING suddenly becomes suseptable to favored power attack, meaning you aren't required to charge for the 3-1 trade off. That can come in handy if the DM figures out the charge and kill trick and starts swarming your character to try and nerf it.
Nemesis might be useful. Lets you find your favored enemies within a small distance (charging distance)

BoED also has a way to boost your sneak attacks to d8's. Only really useful if you're good, and always fighting evil enemies. But for the price of a feat, there's better ways of boosting your SA damage by 1 point on average(Craven)

[Fouredged Sword]

Talk your DM into useing the...

Vitality Point System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)

You heal much faster and git a bit of boost to your HP.

Also it lets you mix in some healing that is not so overtly magical, like an aura or something.

Some bard would not go out of hand. Get healing hymn and inspire courage. Go crusader on the other side. Talk your DM into trading away the bard spell casting for something else useful, like SA or skirmish damage.

Doubling the healing you do every night will make everyone much more happy the next day after a big fight.

[Greenish]

If ozodrin isn't too magic, MoI shouldn't be, either. A totemist or an incarnate goes wonderfully with most everything in gestalt.

I'd recommend an incarnate//rogue (or feat rogue) ultimate skill monkey with decent combat skills. It's not worth investing too much into combat when you're not supposed to win.

[Andreaz]

If ozodrin isn't too magic, MoI shouldn't be, either. A totemist or an incarnate goes wonderfully with most everything in gestalt.

I'd recommend an incarnate//rogue (or feat rogue) ultimate skill monkey with decent combat skills. It's not worth investing too much into combat when you're not supposed to win.

I hadn't seen the ozodrin :o

Yeah, definitely go incarnum. Incarnates and Totemists are the sexiest thing that ever happened to gestalt (the factotum fans may disagree, but they don't count)

[Greenish]

Yeah, definitely go incarnum. Incarnates and Totemists are the sexiest thing that ever happened to gestalt (the factotum fans may disagree, but they don't count)I'm a factotum fan. :smalltongue:

Factotum//Incarnate for the win!

[Salanmander]

Sadly I have been told by the dm that I must make a new character because I almost killed one of the elemental bosses, something that I apparently wasnt supposed to do.

What I'm asking from you all is any advice in talking to my dm about this annoyance, as well as any ideas for a new character.

Most people have been focusing on what you could do to have power within the framework your DM has provided you, but I'm most concerned about why you need to make a new character. Your DM seems to have /literally/ told you to re-roll because you were too powerful. That is, quite simply, not okay.

Now, it's obviously hard to talk to talk to the DM about that, and I would personally not try to convince your DM to reverse the decision. I personally would probably ask the DM something like "So, if I need to re-roll because I almost beat one of the bosses, how are we ever supposed to overcome them?" or something like that. You'll probably get an answer along the lines of "becoming higher level", at which point you could, depending on how confrontational you feel, push back with "Isn't it how powerful our characters are that determines what level is high enough?".

Alternately you could ask your DM for advice on making a new character, saying you keep trying to make things good, but then you start to worry that they might get shot down because they're too good. However, that leans more passive aggressive, and has the problem that your DM may not see the underlying message.

Lastly, depending on the social situation and how much you like the DM as a DM in general, you could be straight confrontational about railroading, possibly with the support of other members of the group. If you feel you're being railroaded to an unacceptable level, you could tell the DM that it needs to improve.

[Greenish]

Your DM seems to have /literally/ told you to re-roll because you were too powerful. That is, quite simply, not okay. I dunno, if a character is too powerful, the DM is well on his rights to do something about it. Of course, it shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction to the character doing something better than expected, and toning down the existing character (if possible) should be the first option, but still.

Obviously, we don't know anything about the situation other than what OP told us of it, but if the DM intended said boss to be a "no-go, just run" sort of encounter, and it would have been so for the rest of the party if not for OP's character to solo the boss, well, that difference in combat potency makes encounter design a pain. Or it might've just been a knee-jerk to SA + lots of attacks -> large pile of d6's -> omg too much dmg!

[Gnaeus]

Most people have been focusing on what you could do to have power within the framework your DM has provided you, but I'm most concerned about why you need to make a new character. Your DM seems to have /literally/ told you to re-roll because you were too powerful. That is, quite simply, not okay.
.

I agree with this. If your current character is banned for power level, most of what we suggest will also be banned for power level.

[Godskook]

Most people have been focusing on what you could do to have power within the framework your DM has provided you, but I'm most concerned about why you need to make a new character. Your DM seems to have /literally/ told you to re-roll because you were too powerful. That is, quite simply, not okay.

1.Yes, yes it is ok for a DM to tell a player that he's simply too powerful for the campaign setting. There's some situations where the DM has evaluated 'too powerful' wrongly, but that doesn't change the original fact that rule 0 exists for exactly these kinds of things.

2.The player in question is using an incredibly magic-like class to 'bypass' the DM's restriction on magic in the campaign. While probably not intentional, and probably with the DM's explicit original permission, the DM has since realized it was a mistake for one reason or another.

3.The player's class is HOMEBREW, and thus, is subject to heavier applications of rule 0 than official sources. The DM going 'that homebrew is basically ruining this campaign' is both reasonable and expected when the topic of homebrew is brought up. In this case, I would've seen it coming, and refused Ozodrins from the start.

@Everyone else, I'm betting dimes to dollars that the DM is not allowing *ANY* of the magical classes you're suggesting cause he wants a gritty, mundane campaign setting. I'm also betting that the DM is not as rules-savvy as we are, so can we play a bit nice with him, eh?

@OP, find out from your DM, what exactly he wants the game to be like. Is he wanting 'gritty', 'realistic', 'challenging', 'non-combat', 'long-term epic', etc, etc. Knowing exactly what he's aiming for will help you plan to play your part in it.

What it sounds like to me is a few possibilities:

1.He's 'world-building' right now, trying to establish horrible, dangerous foes so that you can eventually grow powerful enough to take them down. Being able to kill one now probably destroys half his campaign plan.

2.This is a more 'zombie-survival' style game, where the point isn't to take down your enemies face-to-face, but merely hit&run as well as possible, losing as few people as possible.

[Metahuman1]

IF it proves to be that he's trying to have something more along the lines of Hyboria and less Forgotten Realms/Eragon, I'd suggest pitching a change of system at him, since D&D 3.5 and 3.P are HORRIBLE at that type of game.

Iron Hero's, Conan d20/other Conan systems/ Mutants and Masterminds/ Hero's system/ Gurps/ Savage worlds ALL do that nitch much better. Suggest he get to know one of those for this game.