The Playground versus...

[Gandariel]

I saw you managed to defeat the 1000th level Monk...

How about an Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)?

Does the same tactic of encasing in ice work? how can the Playground Wizard defeat him?
p.s: No astral projections from your Genesis plane. you have to go yourself.

Also, at what level?

[Zale]

I just realized they have Fly at will.

The idea of a fifty headed, hundred armed giant flying around is fairly amusing.

[maximus25]

30th level wizard, epic magic. Easy as cake.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I find really funny you selected the Hecatonchereis as it was already used in another challenge, anyway here is one of my favourite builds.

The Chrono Legionnaire.

This was a bit difficult to find. The archived thread seems to have dissappeared. I had to dig it out of a google cache. It is lengthy, and crazy powerful, but you should find some useful info in it. I'm not going to bother trying to add formatting, which was lost due to it being archived.

Poster Name: Tleilaxu_Ghola & RadicalTaoist
Character Name: The Chrono-Legionaire
System: Faerun
Polling: For Entry in both Restricted and Original Polls
http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/screenshots/ … etch03.jpg
"Run, Run, just as fast as you can! You can't catch me; I'm the ginger-bread man!"

Brief Description & Thematic Purpose: We didn't try to go for the ultimate stat monster with the most buffs, we went for the ultimate in mobility. The chrono-legionaire is capable of teleporting in (at medium range) and teleporting out at long range all while mixing in a full-round attack and regaining psionic focus in the same round. Psionics remain the king of long-term action novas.

Class/Levels: Nomad 3/Ranger 1/Nomad 1/Anarchic Initiate 3/Slayer 2/Fighter1/Slayer 8/Anarchic Initiate 1

Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Ability Scores:
Str: 22 [14 + 6 enhancement + 2 Inherent] (6)
Dex: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Con: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Int: 32 [16 + 5 (Level Increases) +6 enhancement +5 inherent] (10)
Wis: 18 [12 + 6 enhancement] (4)
Cha: 14 [8 + 6 enhancement] (0)
**Note: if assimilate is successfully used, all stats gain a +4 unnamed bonus for one hour.

Belt of Magnificence +6 200,000 gp (MiniHB)
Cloak of Resistance +5, 25,000 gp (DMG)
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Spiked Mithril Breast Plate +5 with +3 weapon enhancement and Defending, 79,350 (DMG)
Skin of the Defender, 32000 gp (XPH)
Tome of Clear Thoughts +5, 137,500
Shirt of Natural Armor +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Cold-Iron Great Sword +5 Valorous Mage-bane Evil Outsider Bane, 145375 (XPH, DMG, CAdv, UE)
Potion of Bless Weapon x5 (CL 2) 500 (DMG)
Torc of Power Preservation 36,000 (DMG)
Ring of Force Shield 8500 (DMG)
Boots of Skating 7000 (XPH)
Bag of Tricks (grey) 900 (DMG)
Pale Green Ioun Stone 30000 (DMG)


Total: 755,925
Tactical Statistics
Hit points = 8 + 4d4+3d6+2d8+1d8+8d8+1d6 = 81 + 20xCON = 181
Initiative: +7 [Dex + 2 unnamed (psi-crystal)]
Move Speeds:
45 land
60 [Psionic Fly] Fly
AC: 44 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection + 5 dex + 2 Shield AC]
TAC: 23 [10 base + 3 unnamed + 5 dex + 5 deflection]
FFAC: 39 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection +2 Shield AC]
**Note on AC Buffs: The above AC figures are "unbuffed." If under the effects of control body (as is the routine after 15th level), all of the above ACs increase by 6. (+11 int -5 dex). This brings the typical total AC to 50 when buffed. Furthermore, if one overchannels a force screen to 17 pp the gish gains an additional +8 shield bonus (a net increase of +6). Thus the most buffed AC this character can achieve is 56. This is possible without resorting to any forms that grant a natural armor bonus.
Saves:
Fort: 20 [9 Base+ 5 resistance + 5 consitution+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Ref: 18 [7 Base + 5 resistance + 5 dexterity+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Will: 25 [15 Base + 5 resistance +4 wisdom +1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +4 competance vs. compulsions and mind-affecting effects (lucid buffer), +2 insight bonus vs. compulsions or lawful effects.

The Gingerbread Man: Nimble Psicrystal
Grants the Chrono-Legionnaire +2 to all initiative checks.
Important Abilities: Share powers
For style points, we recommend making this little guy small, humanoid, and brown.

BUILD PROGRESSION:

Nomad: Psionic Weapon, (Overchannel), (Practiced Manifester),
Nomad:
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Ranger: (Track)
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Psionic Meditiation, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: Deep Impact, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Power Attack)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: , [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]

BAB: 17
Manifester Level: 17
Effective Manifester Level: 20
Power Points: 360 [250 + 11*(EML/2)]


BUILD PROGRESSION:

Ranger: Improved Bull Rush, (Track), (Power Attack),
Nomad: (Overchannel)
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Nomad:
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Practiced Manifester, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: EK (Psionic Lion's Charge), [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Shock Trooper)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer: [Breach Power Resistance]
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: [Blast Feedback], [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]


Personally, I prefer this build as it has better power attack support than the original. This build is not capable of reliably hiting a Heca. With a brilliant weapon the best bonus it can get is a +51 to attack, versus the Heca's 58 brilliant AC. Not bad, but not perfect.

Against less... rediculous foes... this build has incredible preformance. Power attack penalties are absorbed by the heedless charge from shock trooper, and psionic lion's charge allows for extremely deadly charges. Against weakly armored opponents one can easily deal a lot of damage, to wit:

Assuming all hits and same buffs as in the Heca busting trick (except schism & bless weapon). Drop the valorous enhancement, outsider bane, and mage bane enhancements in favor of speed. This is just to make the build even more acceptable in any campaign. Now, the build is non-setting specific. Removing the cold iron material type can reduce costs greatly.

1. Swift action psionic lion's charge (augmented to 20 pp)
2. Headless Leap Attack.

Attack Bonus: [b]+44/+44/+39/+34 [17 base + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 2 charging + 7 insight]

Damage: 590 [5*(17 unnamed (psionic lion's charge) + 68 power attack + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 8 insight + 2d6 base)]

Even in an AMF the damage & attack is considerable:

Attack Bonus in AMF: +21 [17 base + 2 strength + 2 charging]

Damage: 78 [68 power attack + 3 strength + 2d6 base]


Class Requirements:
Anarchic Initiate (CPsi): Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (psionics) 8, Overchannel feat;
Illithid Slayer (XPH): Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Track feat;


--------Tactical Stats-------------Saves------------
1.--BAB: 0,---ML 1, EML--1,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 2
2.--BAB: 1,---ML 2, EML--2,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 3
3.--BAB: 1,---ML 3, EML--3,--Fort: 1, Ref: 1, Will: 3
4.--BAB: 2,---ML 3, EML--4,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 3
5.--BAB: 3,---ML 4, EML--5,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 5
6.--BAB: 3,---ML 5, EML--6,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 6
7.--BAB: 4,---ML 6, EML--7,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 8
8.--BAB: 5,---ML 7, EML--8,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 8
9.--BAB: 6,---ML 7, EML--9,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 9
10. BAB: 7,---ML 8, EML-10,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 10
11.-BAB: 8,---ML 8, EML-11,--Fort: 6, Ref: 4, Will: 10
12.-BAB: 9,---ML 9, EML-12,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 10
13.-BAB: 10,-ML 10, EML-13,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
14.-BAB: 11,-ML 11, EML-14,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
15.-BAB: 12,-ML 12, EML-15,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
16.-BAB: 13,-ML 13, EML-16,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
17.-BAB: 14,-ML 14, EML-17,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 14
18.-BAB: 15,-ML 15, EML-18,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
19.-BAB: 16,-ML 16, EML-19,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
20.-BAB: 17,-ML 17, EML-20,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 15


Notable Class/Feat Abilities:
Wild Surge +1: By paying a 5% probability of dazing myself I gain +1 ML for all purposes and 1 free point of augmentation.
Chaotic Surge: By using either wild surge or overchannel I can opt to roll a d% dice to gain the following effects:
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel is unnaffected and functions normally
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects reduced by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects increased by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects maximized
Breach Power Resistance: Works against spell resistance as well when magic-psionic clarity is in effect. Every time the character succeeds in a hit in melee combat against an enemy he reduces their SR/PR by 1. These SR/PR reductions are cumulative and last 12 hours. The character must be psionically focused for this ability to function.
Cerebral Immunity: Basically I get a supernatural mind-blank effect that cannot be dispelled while I am psionically focused. Immunity to mind-affecting abilities is pretty handy. Note that the character can selectively allow certain mind-affecting powers to affect him, making this more versatile than mind-blank.
Leap Attack + Power Attack + Deep Impact: Nothing like a 4:1 return on a power attack with a two-handed weapon, especially when you resolve the attack as a touch attack.



(The following list is in the order in which the powers are acquired. The level of the power and which level it was obtained at is noted)

Vigor [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Prescience Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Precognition Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Force Screen [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Mind Thrust [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Evade Attack [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Dimension Swap [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Energy Stun [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Damp Power [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Dimension Twister [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Dispel Psionics [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Touch Sight [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Energy Burst [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Psionic Fly [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Detect Hostile Intent [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Psionic Dimension Door [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Telekenetic Maneuver [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Anticipatory Strike [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Celestial Conduit [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Psionic Teleport [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Teleport Trigger [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Inconsistant Location [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 14]
Solicit Psi-Crystal [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Control Body [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Retrieve [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Divert Teleport [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 16]
Temporal Reiteration [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
Energy Conversion [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
True Metabolism [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Schism [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Mind over Energy [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Recall Death [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Assimilate[9th level power, obtained at Character Level 20]



Total Skill Points: 186

Just the skill ranks are provided below. Notable skills will include bonuses (at 20th level).

Jump: 32 [23 ranks +4 speed + 5 STR]
Knowledge [Psionics]: 8
Knowledge [Planes]: 8
Concentration: 23
Psicraft: 16
Survival: 23
Listen: 21
Spot: 21
Diplomacy: 25 [23 ranks +2 Cha]




Essentially, psionics have a little advantage over arcane, despite the deluge of broken spells, feats, and PrCs available to arcanists: action novas and power versatility.

Action gaining tricks:
Temporal Acceleration: (Available 14th level) It's just better than time stop for so many reasons, let me count the ways:
It's takes a swift action to manifest, so after you gain all those rounds for buffing, you can still take a full round attack
it's available at 11 ML, unlike time stop which is availabe at 17th CL at the earliest
Augmentable (read adjustable) number of rounds gained. Only need one round? Why spend too many pp? The base cost is only 11 pp.
Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal (Available 15th level): Basically this trick gives the psion one full round of mental actions each round (which he uses to regain focus and manifest powers) and one full round of physical actions each round (which he uses to attack with). It's like a two-for-one deal.
Schism (Available 18th level): It's really quite simple; you manifest this power and get a free standard action each round at a -6 ML penalty. Great for on the fly buffing. It lasts rounds per level making it vastly superior to the arcane celerity, which grants only one standard action. Plus it's only a fourth level power.


Power Versatility
If you are unfamiliar with psionics, I will inform you of the wonders that are available to psions here. Powers can be augmented. This means that your first level powers can be as good as your higher level powers. A first level mind thrust can deal 20d10 at 20th level (if you spend 20 pp). This means that the number of powers a psion knows is not at all comparable to a wizard. A wizard's magic missile just doesn't deliver at 20th level, but a psion's mind thrust can. Bear in mind that to spend 20 pp on a given power one must have 20 Manifester Levels to do so.

Also, a psion can use his power points on any power he knows. So, like a sorcerer he is spontaneous. But it's better than a sorcerer, because his powers aren't locked by level. If he likes a psion can spend all his pp on really high level (or highly augmented) powers several times a day, or can conserve his power points and manifest at a diminished level. So his pp expendature can be matched to whatever the DM throws at you. Unlike the sorcerer a psion has no difficulty of spending all his pp in a day, and so he attains a higher efficiency of his resources. Waste not want not is the essential motto of a psion. Why end the day with a lot of 1st or 2nd level spell slots?


[b]Tactical Advantage: Teleportation

Divert Teleport + Dimensional Twister: Requires a single target make two will saves or take damage (augmentable, minimum 5d6) and be teleported to some location within sight and medium range. Consumes a standard and immediate action.
Divert Teleport + Psicrystal Share Powers: The Gingerbread Man provides the Chrono-Legionnaire with another immediate action to redirect teleportations with.
Retrieve: If I see it, it's mine. Any object that weighs 10 lbs/level within sight (even attended objects) can be teleported to my hand with a failed will save on the part of the object.
Dimension Swap + Divert Teleport: Swap your allies places and then divert the teleportation effect to anywhere within sight and medium range. Essentially you can get your friends (or yourself and a friend) anywhere on the battle field with a standard and an immediate action or two.
Teleport Trigger + Divert Teleport: Want to get a way, but not that far away? Teleport trigger is an XP-free teleport contingency that lasts hours per level & divert teleport is a very useful power that lasts 10 mins/ level. Mix the two and you can avoid one really sticky situation per encounter without having to leave the encounter entirely.
Inconstant Location + Divert Teleport: Inconstant Location, once set up (standard action to manifest) gives the Legionnaire access to a swift action teleport. The normal range of this teleport is limited to the length of his movement speed, but with the Gingerbread Man using Divert Teleport as an immediate action, this range increased to well over 100 feet. Best of all, this doesn't use up any of their standard or move actions.


Now for a little stunt. We posit that the following trick is legal and within a high possibility of success; I give you:

How to kill a CR 57 Hecatoncheires
(AKA: Night-Crawler style Uber Teleportation Spring-Attacking)

The Chrono-Legionaire has several attack options, which I will present below:

The Boss-killing attack Routine
Works well against opponents with high AC and extremely dangerous offensive capabilities. For this technique to function to its maximal effect, a large combat area is needed. All power point costs are reduced by 1 because of the Torc of Power Preservation worn.

Assume the following already active buffs:
>> Assimilate (used bag of tricks to summon a small animal and toasted it) less than an hour in advance. (lasts 1 hour) [16 pp]
>>Teleport trigger (lasts 20 hours) [12 pp]
1.
-- Swift Action Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Precognition Offensive (19 pp), gain psionic focus, swift action manifest another Temporal Acceleration (19 pp)
>Divert Teleport
>>Apply oil of bless weapon, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Schism, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Control Body, solicit psi-crystal, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
--STD action: Prescience Offensive (19 pp),
--Full Attack Charge the foe: Leap Attack, Power attack all 17 BAB, Expend Focus for deep impact
--Schismed STD action: dimension door away [6 pp]
2.
--Mental Schismed STD action: Dimension Swap
--Mental Immediate action: Divert Teleport to within 10 feet of Hecatoncheires
--Ready Mental Regular STD action dimension door away (upon completion of charge or upon receiving a successful attack)
--Mental Move action: regain focus
--Mental Free Action Expend Focus (for deep impact)
--Physical Charge (power attacking, leap attacking, jumping the whole way (10 feet) with no running start).
>>Readied action triggered, d-door away.

Rinse and Repeat #2 until the foe is dead. (You have 20 rounds before schism runs out).

Why does this sequence work? With assimilate our initiative modifier goes up to +9, which is just 1 under the Heca's initiative bonus. I think it's fair to say that whomever wins is initiative is primarily determined by a die roll. If all else fails, we have a teleport trigger in place that will whisk us to safety at the first sign of danger. We'll just try again in a few rounds. After everything starts rolling we begin the TP in TP out attack sequence. We'll always be able to TP outside the Heca's charging range (which is 200 feet). Every round we have a readied dimension door prepared against his possible readied action that he might have to attack us. So, as long as we have a clear area (of 200+ feet), we'll never get touched by the beast. As you can see below, we deal enough damage (with a high enough probability of success) to take him out in under 10 rounds.


Attack bonuses:
Great Sword: +32 [17 BAB + 2 charging + 13 INT + 9* Enhancement + 7 insight -17 power attack + 1 competance] (We need to roll a 2 or better to hit him -- a one automatically fails anyways) [Since we have 5% failure rate, we assume that one fails. So we assume 9 successful attacks in 10 rounds]
*Because of outsider & mage bane the enhancement is +9, making this an effective epic weapon. Given that it is already cold-iron and bless weapon makes it good, we now bypass his DR.


Damage Calculations:
Sword: 2x[2d6 Base + 9 enhancement 17*4 Power Attack + 8 insight + 13 INT] + 4d6 (mage and outsider bane)


Total Average (assuming all hits): 224 on one attack per round. With the Heca's 50 Fast Healing, that's only 174 net damage per round. Given that the Heca has 1048 hitpoints, we can take him out in 6 successful attacks. (With one assumed failure this takes 7 rounds).

Each round (after the initial buffing round) we must spend 8 (6 for d-door + 2 for swap) power points per round. So over 7 rounds we spend 56 power points (plus the initial 108 pp counting the assimilate and divert teleport). So, all in all, we spend 164 pp (under half our total pp for the day) to kill a monster which is nearly three times our CR. Given the right environment I feel confident that we have at least a 75 to 90% chance of success the first time around, with almost a 0% chance of death.

The What Ifs:
That's a lot of buffs. What if they somehow get hosed?
Although it's expensive, we can maintain a temporal acceleration for as many rounds as we need to rebuff with temporal iteration. This increases buffing costs by 8 pp per round, but it can be done. This is really only economical for extending temporal acceleration 1 round, however. If one wants to extend the acceleration for more than one round nested accelerations become more economical (15 pp for a nested 2 round acceleration as opposed to 16 pp for two temporal iterations, 19 pp for a nested 3 round acceleration as opposed to 24 for 3 temporal iterations.) Bottom-line: the Chrono-Legionaire can re-buff at the drop of a hat.
What if the Hecatoncheires summons his buddy?
More XP for us. The Hecatoncheires is Huge, meaning there's a decent space we can move around in where he grants us full cover against his brother's attacks. We kill the first, 'port away to safety, reset the necessary buffs (the bless weapon oil, most importantly) and 'port back to restart the routine and kill Heca number 2. Failing that, just port away and come back when Heca 2's summon ends.
What if the Hecatoncheires uses his Fly spell-like ability?
Psionic Fly is on the Legionnaire's powers known list. In fact, moving to three dimensions makes the summoning ability of the hecatoncheires less useful, as now there is that much more space in which to manuver where we are covered. There's no restriction on teleporting to a point in open space.
What if both Heca's ready actions?
It remains that careful teleportation placement means only one can target us at a time.
Divert Teleport says you must have studied the area carefully.
You didn't read all of the power description. It also says that being very familiar will suffice. When one reads the teleport spell description one can readily see that merely seeing the target location qualifies us to be "very familiar."
Massive Area Effects - and by massive I mean stuff like Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, thankfully banned) or Eruption (Serpent Kingdoms). When we've got an area of square miles, you might be lucky enough to catch the Legionnaire by surprise.
Karmic Strike - this annoying feat can give foes reactive attacks against the Legionnaire beyond what readied defenses can provide. Still, the Legionnaire does a lot more damage in a single hit than the Karmic Strike likely will, and they still have to hit the AC of 44 (or 56 if properly buffed).
Mobs with tons of readied actions - since Synchronicity is banned, this is the only way to get enough readied actions to possibly target the Legionnaire. It may be difficult for more than a few to notice and attack the Legionnaire while he guerilla bombs them with Energy Burst, and they still have to hit that AC.
Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock - these teleportation-negating spells are the Legionnaire's Achilles heel. Fortunately, you can't 'port into a D-Locked area by accident. Dimensional Anchor is more dangerous, offering no saving throw and requiring the Legionnaire to dispel his own buffs in order to remove it. The Legionnaire can supply his own dispels and pump them off in rapid order if need be. The best defense would be using the Legionnaire's Psionic Fly and a good impacting magebane charge to kill any threatening caster in one good smack.

Simply put, the reason this guy is the ultimate gish is because of his adaptability in any campaign setting. If one removes the valorous weapon (which isn't even necessary to kill the Heca, but speeds up the process greatly), then this build is non-setting specific. Furthermore, this build does not need persistant magic to be a viable gish. At twelfth level he gains the ability to make deep impact leap attacks, which means he's quite a capable in melee early on. This is a build that is themed on teleportive mobility and the Chrono-Legionnaire delivers on this promise. Not only is the Chrono-legionnaire capable of teleporting himself, but he can teleport his enemies, his enemies equipment, or his allies.

Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc: Against mind-flayers the Chrono-Legionnaire is incredible, due to his levels in Illithid Slayer. Beyond that, the chrono-legionnaire's leap attack routine and breach power resistance enables him to bypass many of the defenses which are common among Abberations & magical beasts (namely natural armor and SR). Furthermore, the Chrono-Legionnaire is immune to mind-affecting effects (while focused), which renders him invulnerable to many of the more insidious offensive capabilities of Abberations. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.

Constructs: The difficulty of constructs is their immunity to most magical forms of attack and their high physical prowess. Enter leap attack & deep impact once again. Due to the typically low touch AC of constructs, our intrepid hero can make quick mince-meat of his automaton foes.

Dragons: Dragon claim a high mobility and great physical prowess. They lack good touch AC, however, which makes them vulnerable to the Chrono-Legionnaire's deep impact trick. The chrono-legionnaire claims a higher mobility than even the fastest dragons, enabling him to keep outside of their range. Make no mistake, dragons are potent foes. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here. The Legionnaire has flight as well, in case the dragon tries to go aerial, and breach power resistance to finish things if necessary.

Elementals/Outsiders: Elementals are not a real problem, but outsiders are reknown for their deadly SLAs, energy resistances, and physical prowess. Here celestial conduit is a nice power, as it offers D6 per pp damage and the damage type is "positive energy." Deep impact + leap attack is still effective against most of these foes, as is evidenced by the Chrono-Legionnaire's ability to take out the grand-daddy of all outsiders: the Hecatoncheires. The magebane & evil outsider bane weapon enhancements are quite helpful here.

Undead: The Chrono-Legionnaire does not rely on critical hits or necromantic effects, so undead have little defense against the majority of the Chrono-Legionnaire's tactics. Furthermore celestial conduit deals 1d6+2 damage per pp against undead, making it an attractive means to their destruction. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.

Traps: If a trap is suspected, the chrono-legionnaire typically teleports past it. This is admittedly a weak point in this build. However, readied dimensions swaps and immediate action diverts mean that the Gingerbread Man can scout ahead yet be immediately pulled back to safety in case of emergency

Political Intrigue & Diplomatic Maneuvers: Despite his mediocre charisma, the Chrono-Legionnaire has maxed out his ranks in diplomacy and can deal with moderately sticky diplomatic situations. He also has the Detect Hostile Intent power on his list, which helps ... well... detect hostiles. This can be ever so invaluable for quick diplomatic decision making. He's no diplomancer & knows when to make way for the party bard. That said, he can escape awkward situations incredibly fast.

A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord: I believe the anti-Heca trick shown above is an adequate display of the Chrono-Legionnaire's prowess against single opponents.

Mobs: Energy burst offers a 40' radius burst centered on the manifester and deals d6 energy damage of any type of energy (specified upon manifestation) against any foes in that area. Can't ask for much better area damage than that. The saving throw can be made to be a fort or ref save, and can be enhanced by chaotic surge (described above in class abilities of note).

Overwhelming Odds: No one can get out of dodge like the Chrono-Legionnaire. An XP-free contingent teleport (teleport trigger) is key here. Dimension door and divert teleport are also good means of getting out fast. Anticipatory Strike also means an immediate action "I take next round's turn NOW" when he really needs to leave.

Meeting Constraints:
The Optimization Constraints:
Melee Damage or Non-Magical Ranged Damage Capability:

The leap attack + deep impact routine is a good way to meet this constraint. With 17 BAB, the chrono-legionnaire is quite capable in normal comabat as well.
Defensive Capability: Immunity to mind-affecting effects is nice, his AC is over 40 without applying any buffs and can go into the high 50s with buffs.
Magical Offensive Capability: 9th level powers, 360 pp. He's not as good as a straight psion, but he's pretty darn good.
Tactical Advantage: Telekentic maneuvers (via the power), diverted dimensional twisters, and retrieve make this guy quite capable of befuddling and disabling his foes at a range. Nothing says ownage quite like being damaged and teleported over 300' feet in the same round.
Party Benefit: Psionics is not reknown for buffing others, but dimension swap and some of the tactical maneuvers above make the Chrono-Legionnaire a good guy to have around in combat. He's also able to serve as the party tracker with maxed out ranks in survival and the track feat. In a party with the Legionnaire, a party member is wherever he needs to be when he needs to be. Forcecage the fighter? No problem, he's out on the Legionnaire's turn without skipping a beat. The casters in the party will love how the Legionnaire reduces the PR of enemies too.
High Initiative: 2 + dex. Not astounding, but not bad.
Skillz: 186 skills is pretty decent. He's able to cover all the necessary bases and have some left over for things like maxed out tracking and diplomacy.
Endurance: Not the strongest ability our character has, but I feel confident that he can handle 3-4 encounters per day and still kick butt -- provided these encounters aren't CR 57 Hecas...
Playable: The only combat weak area is the first six levels, however, during this time he is a quite functional psion. 12th level and beyond is where this build really excels.
Minimal Buffs: AMF is not good for this guy as he can't use deep impact in an AMF, but he's still got 17 BAB and decent physical stats. He wouldn't fight a barbarian in an AMF if he could help it.

Additional Restrictions:
Powerful Magic: Able to manifest 9th level powers.
High Base Attack: 17 BAB by 20th level.
No ASF: Powers are not subject to ASF.
High Armor Class: Without buffs he has 44 AC, which meets the greater than or equal to 40 constraint.
High Damage: He can deal over 200 damage reliably against anything with a touch AC below 34 for at least 40 rounds per day while also teleporting in and out each round (with a TP range of 300+ feet).
No Form Altering: Just say no. He doesn't even have access to such abilities.


Conclusion:
Psi-Gish are fairly limited in their abilities when compared to Arcane-based gish, but I hope this entry has demonstrated some of the unique capabilities that are available to psionics. First and foremost is the incredibly powerful and versatile control body + schism + solicit psi-crystal trick, which is employed here. Nothing is better than taking a full round attack, 2 standard actions, and a mental move-action every round when the going gets tough.

Books Used:
XPH: Slayer, Nomad, & most powers & feats
PHB
DMG: Most magic items
MiniHB: Belt of Magnificence
UE: Valorous weapon enhancement
CPsi: Anarchic Initiate, various powers

[Flickerdart]

Well, its Touch AC is only 28, though its Regeneration means that a Holy weapon will be required to saw its face off when it's far enough in the negatives (this only needs to do 110 damage per turn, so it's trivial to do). Initiative is easy to beat (+10? More like +noteventrying). Superior Invisibility plus Darkstalker means it can't do anything to you as long as you stay more than 120ft away. You need to hit DC37 on your Will saves (10+9 +13 from 36 INT + 2 from (Greater) Spell Focus is only 3 shy) to get a 50% chance of dazelocking it with Orbs.

So, Mailman does a pretty good job of it at 20th, summoning a bunch of dudes afterwards to convert its nonlethal into lethal.

[Gandariel]

Remember that he can Summon another Hecatoncheires behind you...

[Flickerdart]

Remember that he can Summon another Hecatoncheires behind you...
Considering that the Mailman has no problems dishing out over 1000 damage per turn? He can't. You're also flying and invisible, so "behind you" could be anywhere, including 400ft straight up in the air. What's the range on that summon, anyway?

[Gandariel]

it is not described... but the Hecaton... Mr. H has blindsight 500 ft and true seeing at will, (and his caster level is 50)
how are you fooling this?

[Campbellk8105]

it is not described... but the Hecaton... Mr. H has blindsight 500 ft and true seeing at will, (and his caster level is 50)
how are you fooling this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Mindblank would cover you for true seeing. Darkstalker makes the blindsight count for nothing if he can't beat a spot check to find the invisible man.

[Grendus]

If we presume it's at the lower end of huge, two force cage spells (one for the first Hec, one for the one he summons) will take him out of the fight for 2 hours/level. None of his native abilities/spell-likes help. Now burn him down from range with a light crossbow and a 50gp oil of Bless weapon.

A level 20 mailman with Consecrate Spell from BoED could probably take him out before he gets to act. He only has 1048 HP, should be trivial to one shot him, and since the damage is good aligned his regen won't help.

[gkathellar]

it is not described... but the Hecaton... Mr. H has blindsight 500 ft and true seeing at will, (and his caster level is 50)
how are you fooling this?

IIRC, Supreme Superior Invisibility should do it, right?

EDIT: Checked. It'll get around Blindsight. Fooling True Seeing will require something else. I know it's doable, but I'm missing it.

[Socratov]

isn't the mailman the answer to almost anything? Here's a good one, find something the would actually withstand the mailman and mess him up...

[pwykersotz]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Mindblank would cover you for true seeing.

Mindblank does not negate True Seeing unless you have a really weird GM. The clause you're remembering is that it protects from information gathering from divination spells and effects. "Information Gathering" is technically up for a glorious RAW fight, but it's designed to protect against Scrying and Locate Creature. RAI is fairly obvious (in my humble opinion).


About the creature, it's a bit cheap, but I would go Diplomacy. If I'm feeling cheesy, possibly via the Jumplomancer-esque route. Then you have a new helpful mount!

[Worira]

True Seeing vs. Mind Blank is one of those "30 pages of rules discussion" topics.

[Campbellk8105]

True Seeing vs. Mind Blank is one of those "30 pages of rules discussion" topics.

Yea, my DM's typically stick with mind-blank stopping true seeing because mind blank stops all other divinations essentially, and its a higher spell level so it can trump the lower.

Also, you could always coat your arrows/weapons in Trollbane to stop his regen.

[Flickerdart]

IIRC, Supreme Superior Invisibility should do it, right?

EDIT: Checked. It'll get around Blindsight. Fooling True Seeing will require something else. I know it's doable, but I'm missing it.
True Seeing has a pitiful range of 120 feet, just stay out of it and you're golden.

[gkathellar]

True Seeing has a pitiful range of 120 feet, just stay out of it and you're golden.

Seriously? Yeah, that's basically useless for high-level caster combat.

[Gandariel]

Okay then, it looks like this one was too easy...
yeesh, the Playground is sure strong if a CR 50 creature has to be pegged as "too easy" :P

Okay, so... What's the minimum caster level to kill a Great Wyrm Prismatic dragon?
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon)

*checks if this one's vulnerable to Shivering touch*
*he is*
Well, at least he has SR..

OR maybe the Force one? it is listed as immune to Forcecages (but i guess he's too big to be contained in one anyways..)

[CTrees]

*checks if this one's vulnerable to Shivering touch*
*he is*
Well, at least he has SR..

Comedy option is to take leadership and a ton of caster followers. Spread 'em out, give them wands of Shivering Touch, and let the statistics of scores of casts a round take it down.

Now, great wyrm prismatic dragon with it's feats intelligently reassigned? That's brutal.

[Flickerdart]

Well, considering that both of the dragons cast as a ridiculously high level spellcasters, they can just take Epic Spellcasting and win. The best way to beat them would be researching what spells they can cast and then coming prepared for those spells - so a 21st level Wizard with a lot of patience.

[Worira]

Keep in mind that a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is a 38th level caster with mental ability scores all in the mid 60s. To beat one, you pretty much have to hope they're being played way, way stupider than their stats would indicate.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, but they're also Sorcerers, so the spells they cast from day to day are limited barring considerable work.

[DeltaEmil]

So to make it short, only another (superior) spellcaster can defeat the I-beat-hecatoncheires-for-breakfeast-while-cleaning-my-toes-spellcaster barring GM-fiat.

That's how D&D 3.x (3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder) works.

[kardar233]

The Colossus of War (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22080093/The_Colossus_of_War) can literally lie down on the ground and let the Hecatoncheires hit him and slowly kill itself.

Somewhat lower on the cheese-meter, assuming some serious DEX-pumping or some way of getting Improved Combat Reflexes, I should be able to put together a single-classed PsyWar who can go toe-to-toe with the thing.

[gkathellar]

Keep in mind that a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is a 38th level caster with mental ability scores all in the mid 60s. To beat one, you pretty much have to hope they're being played way, way stupider than their stats would indicate.

A well-built Tainted Scholar could probably pull it off. With the [Evil] subtype, you've got yourself an arbitrarily high casting stat.

[kardar233]

A well-built Tainted Scholar could probably pull it off. With the [Evil] subtype, you've got yourself an arbitrarily high casting stat.

Yeah, but are there any Save or Dies that aren't [Mind-Affecting] or Death effects? Both are easily counterable.

Anyways, the other guy can just negate you with Effulgerent Epuration or a Contingent Something.

[Snowbluff]

So to make it short, only another (superior) spellcaster can defeat the I-beat-hecatoncheires-for-breakfeast-while-cleaning-my-toes-spellcaster barring GM-fiat.

That's how D&D 3.x (3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder) works.

On the other hand, a ToBer should be able to kill the Heca at 20, if not 30.

[CTrees]

Yeah, but are there any Save or Dies that aren't [Mind-Affecting] or Death effects? Both are easily counterable.

Anyways, the other guy can just negate you with Effulgerent Epuration or a Contingent Something.

If we're talking Tainted Scholar, and arbitrarily high CL? Maw of Chaos has uncapped (and thus, arbitrarily high) damage by CL, is an area effect (which beats Effulgent Epuration), does not have a save versus the damage (only the secondary effects), and SR is irrelevant anyway. The only real challenge is winning initiative, which is just a given at high level, anyway.

[Hirax]

Circle magic + persisted consumptive field for a high CL can take down anything no prob, assuming you can go first and don't get ravaged by epic magic. Reduce your caster level to 1 by holding a bunch of unholy arrows (those are legal to make right?) for negative levels. Circle magic then boosts your CL from 1 to 40, then drop the unholy arrows to put your CL at 59. Get enough temporary CL boosters to cast consumptive field at CL 74, giving you +37 to your CL after you feed the field, putting you at CL96. Add a ring of arcane might, create magic tattoo, and UMDed talisman of 12 moons, you're walking around with a CL of 100 all day. Now use blasphemy and holy word to kill anything with less than 90 hit dice and that doesn't have magic immunity. Use extraordinary spell aim to avoid killing yourself with holy word; you're presumably evil given the use of consumptive field.

[TravelLog]

I saw you managed to defeat the 1000th level Monk...

How about an Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)?

Does the same tactic of encasing in ice work? how can the Playground Wizard defeat him?
p.s: No astral projections from your Genesis plane. you have to go yourself.

Also, at what level?

1000th level Monk?

[CTrees]

Circle magic + persisted consumptive field for a high CL can take down anything no prob, assuming you can go first and don't get ravaged by epic magic. Reduce your caster level to 1 by holding a bunch of unholy arrows (those are legal to make right?) for negative levels. Circle magic then boosts your CL from 1 to 40, then drop the unholy arrows to put your CL at 59. Get enough temporary CL boosters to cast consumptive field at CL 74, giving you +37 to your CL after you feed the field, putting you at CL96. Add a ring of arcane might, create magic tattoo, and UMDed talisman of 12 moons, you're walking around with a CL of 100 all day. Now use blasphemy and holy word to kill anything with less than 90 hit dice and that doesn't have magic immunity. Use extraordinary spell aim to avoid killing yourself with holy word; you're presumably evil given the use of consumptive field.

Minor quibble: the unholy enchantment only level drains good creatures. If we're assuming an evil character, a bundle of holy arrows are what's needed.

[Curious]

1000th level Monk?

Several recent threads detailed how a 20th level wizard could defeat a level 1000 monk.

[TravelLog]

Link if possible?

[Worira]

The funny thing is that I just had a conversation with someone about how annoying that is, and linked to this topic to explain what I meant.

EDIT: The posts not appearing, I mean.

[Curious]

Link if possible?

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218989) is the only one I could find, but there is a more recent thread with more complete strategies.

[Treblain]

The hecatoncheires does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with one hundred weapons.

I just love reading that sentence.

[Urpriest]

I just love reading that sentence.

On the other hand, if he tries wielding 99 weapons instead, think of the penalties!

[Hirax]

Link if possible?

Simplified version:

Undermaster (Spell Compendium) allows you cast cast several spells as a standard action, and it explicitly says even if those spells have a longer casting time, they're still a standard action. One of those spells is move earth, meaning as a standard action, you can move a 750' by 750' area of earth up to 10' deep as a standard action. That's up to 5,625,000 cubic feet. Simply bury them then use frostfell (Frostburn) to turn the dirt to everfrost. Even if they can survive when trapped in the dirt, they're still effectively defeated. If desired, you can extract a 50' or so cube with the monk in to take home as a trophy, casting invisibility on it so the rock is invisible and you can see the monk. The break DC for getting out is far into homebrew territory, but would probably be in the hundreds.

[candycorn]

it is not described... but the Hecaton... Mr. H has blindsight 500 ft and true seeing at will, (and his caster level is 50)
how are you fooling this?

Superior Invisibility trumps blindsight outright.

[Aharon]

You are not playing the Hecatoncheire to its full potential.


You are assuming it would go for melee. Why? It can cast GMW at will, so it should have a lot of +5 boulders to throw at you. Those aren't stopped by Wind Wall and thus do some damage to a medium-optimized mailman. The complete deal with immunity to damage isn't endangered, but the standard type is.
You assume that the Hec is on an open, featureless plane and you will be able to approach from more than 500 ft. away
Superior Invisibility derives from Invisibility, and nowhere in the spell description are the mundane ways to deal with it (Listen and Spot) overriden. You have to deal with high Listen and Spot modifiers there.
They have Telepathy, so a single level of anything can give them Mindsight
If the goal is to actually kill it, you have to attack it with a good weapon or a weapon tempered with the blood of the deity. Going hairsplittingly by RAW, good weapons aren't defined (there are weapons with the holy enchantment, which makes the weapon good-aligned, but that's not the same as Good).


They are still beatable by a 20th level caster, but it isn't quite as easy as you make it.

[Gandariel]

You are not playing the Hecatoncheire to its full potential.


You are assuming it would go for melee. Why? It can cast GMW at will, so it should have a lot of +5 boulders to throw at you. Those aren't stopped by Wind Wall and thus do some damage to a medium-optimized mailman. The complete deal with immunity to damage isn't endangered, but the standard type is.
You assume that the Hec is on an open, featureless plane and you will be able to approach from more than 500 ft. away
Superior Invisibility derives from Invisibility, and nowhere in the spell description are the mundane ways to deal with it (Listen and Spot) overriden. You have to deal with high Listen and Spot modifiers there.
They have Telepathy, so a single level of anything can give them Mindsight
If the goal is to actually kill it, you have to attack it with a good weapon or a weapon tempered with the blood of the deity. Going hairsplittingly by RAW, good weapons aren't defined (there are weapons with the holy enchantment, which makes the weapon good-aligned, but that's not the same as Good).


They are still beatable by a 20th level caster, but it isn't quite as easy as you make it.

Yeah, i was thinking of the +100 or so to Spot. He should be able to see you even while invisible...

Now, if the Mailman can reallly Teleport, celerity, and then kill him in a full-round action.. well in that case he's really beaten..

[Flickerdart]

Even if you don't want to be invisible, just pop any of your favourite protection spells (Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image) and stay out of that pesky 120ft range. I am also assuming that the opponent here is the hecatoncheires, not hecatoncheires + a bunch of class levels oh and also let's rearrange its feats and maybe give it new gear while we're at it.

The possibility that it lives in a tiny cavern barely enough to fit its own body is there, I suppose.

[Aharon]

@Flickerdart
@feats
Switching feats around to make monsters more difficult or otherwise interesting is a method that is explicitly described in Dungeonscape. Plus, I only mentioned that as a possibility - it isn't even neccessary because of the high spot modifier.

@Range&Buffs
Concerning Miss-chance granting buffs: Blindsight has 500 ft. range. Greater Mirror Image still works, though.

@Buffs in general
Buffing is neccessary and will lead to a wizard victory, but was neglected/not mentioned in the thread. Nobody linked to the actual mailman build, and I think most people don't realize what kind of optimization is neccessary for it.

@room
There are stages between "I'm on a wide, featureless plane" and "I'm in a small room barely big enough to contain myself."

You didn't say anything about the actual killing thing...

[Gandariel]

@Flickerdart
Concerning Miss-chance granting buffs: Blindsight has 500 ft. range. Greater Mirror Image still works, though.


Mirror image works? really? when the enemy can throw 50 boulders per round? he'll miss you in most of them, sure, but several (GMWd)boulders will hit you..

[Chess435]

This really shouldn't be that hard to do.....

Step 0: Decent amounts of CL and/or metamagic optimization.

Step 1: Teleport in. Follow up immediately with greater celerity.

Step 2: Maximised empowered twinned maw of chaos for an amount of damage that would make Vegeta go blow up a scouter factory. :smalltongue:

Step 3: ????????

Step 4: Profit!


[/thread]

[Aharon]

@Flickerdart
Chess435's post shows my point very well. It ain't as easy as one might think, one actually has to prepare correctly.

@Chess435
at which point the Hec laughs at you and throws its 50 boulders, because it is completely unaffected by your maximised empowered twinned maw of chaos.

[Zale]

@Chess435
at which point the Hec laughs at you and throws its 50 boulders, because it is completely unaffected by your maximised empowered twinned maw of chaos.

You can quote people.

Why does it not work. I'm curious.

[Aharon]

You can quote people.

Why does it not work. I'm curious.

If you prefer that... I think nested quotes can get unclear fast, that's why I avoid them when I answer to short posts.

Maw of Chaos doesn't affect creatures with the [chaotic] subtype, which Hecs have.

[Zale]

If you prefer that... I think nested quotes can get unclear fast, that's why I avoid them when I answer to short posts.

Maw of Chaos doesn't affect creatures with the [chaotic] subtype, which Hecs have.

So what's the Law-themed alternative to Maw of Chaos?

[Aharon]

So what's the Law-themed alternative to Maw of Chaos?

There isn't one, to my knowledge. You could use Reserves of Strength to uncap other d6/CL damage spells, though.

[Flickerdart]

@Flickerdart
Chess435's post shows my point very well. It ain't as easy as one might think, one actually has to prepare correctly.
Um, yeah, that's why I mentioned Darkstalker.

Also, if you're going to be adding feats and levels, just give it 20 levels of Wizard and Epic Spellcasting, because the rules say you can. This is a challenge against a specific monster.

[Aharon]

Um, yeah, that's why I mentioned Darkstalker.

Also, if you're going to be adding feats and levels, just give it 20 levels of Wizard and Epic Spellcasting, because the rules say you can. This is a challenge against a specific monster.

Why do you keep mentioning the levels thing? I already said that it isn't needed. If you want a clearer statement: I conceed that this discussion is about the unaltered Hec from the SRD only. I won't come back to the level/feat change thing.

Up to now, I thought Darkstalker doesn't change anything, as the Hec makes its spot check. I don't think the feat still prevents blindsight from negating the concealment once the blindsighted creature has spotted the one with Darkstalker. Is that reading of the feat text wrong?

I don't doubt that you could make a complete build that is able to defeat the Hec, but most people didn't show their capabilities, as seen above. I have said in almost every post that I don't doubt the Hec will lose, it is just important in my opinion to show that it is not a trivial combination of two or three spells as chess354's approach, but requires a bit more preparation. That's my whole point. I don't claim the Hec would win or something.

[Zaq]

If you prefer that... I think nested quotes can get unclear fast, that's why I avoid them when I answer to short posts.

Maw of Chaos doesn't affect creatures with the [chaotic] subtype, which Hecs have.

Is it immune to force? It's not THAT hard to hack Wings of Flurry onto a Wizard's spell list. Takes some doing, but it's not hard.

Also, my copy of the ELH gives the the [Evil] subtype, not the [Chaotic] subtype, unless I'm not looking in the right place.

The point is, sufficient CL optimization + an alpha strike with an uncapped CL-based spell will do in just about anything that's not immune to it.

[Aharon]

@Zaq
it was updated/errata'd to also have the chaotic subtype.
It isn't immune to force damage, but Wings of Flurry also allows Reflex Half (the smaller problem), and it has a smaller range (30 ft. only). This makes the alpha strike more difficult.

[Randomguy]

Funnily enough, they don't have freedom of movement (except from an item), or any kind of teleportation, so solid fog (which prevents even thrown boulders, funnily enough) gets them more or less stuck while you spam vortex of teeth. Forcecage works, too, and you don't need to worry about spell components with epic eschew materials, but you need to cast it twice, an extra time against the summon.

Then there's also hit him with a book (using quickened launch object) filled with explosive runes and a dispel magic at an extremely low caster level. But then, that kills everything but a force dragon.

[Zaq]

@Zaq
it was updated/errata'd to also have the chaotic subtype.
It isn't immune to force damage, but Wings of Flurry also allows Reflex Half (the smaller problem), and it has a smaller range (30 ft. only). This makes the alpha strike more difficult.

We're already talking a [Greater] Teleport + Greater Celerity alpha strike (i.e., appear wherever the hell you want, then get off one big boom before it can retaliate) with Circle Magic and/or GCF (or whatever method you please) boosting our CL to ungodly levels. Merely upping the numbers we need to hit isn't going to stop this strategy. Yes, it's basically just an extreme form of Scry-and-Die, but I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that Scry-and-Die works. A sufficiently high CL on Wings of Flurry will kill anything that's not somehow immune (including via Evasion) or able to counterattack with immediate/contingent speed. Once you've opened the door to Circle Magic levels of CL boosting, the numbers aren't an issue. Only something that fundamentally stymies the tactic itself will stop it, and Big H doesn't have anything like that.

Of course, you'll get no argument from me if you say that Scry-and-Die with Circle Magic and WoF is the easy way out, but hey, I'm not the one throwing Big H at pre-epic characters in single combat.

[Chess435]

Okay this is a bit cheesy and involves some really stupid RAW, but a 19th level Factotum can technically gain a Sorcerer's spellcasting ability for 1 minute. Then you use Cunning Breach to ignore SR for 1 round. With a combination of Arcane Thesis, Metamagic Feats, and possibly rods for Maximize and Empower, you could probably one-shot the thing with a sufficiently high caster level.

Dang, I got ninja'd!

[Aharon]

@Randomguy
Assuming a room with some height, the Hecatoncheire should fly above the ground, so that it can't be caught in Solid Fog. The Barred Cage Forcecage in Conjunction with Vortex of Teeth should work, as does Explosive Runes Cheese.

@Zaq
Circle Magic doesn't cut it, you actually need a CL way higher than 40 to beat its SR. GCF works, but you have to jump through even more hoops than for Wings of Flurry.

As I said, I don't deny it works, but it doesn't work if the details aren't carefully laid out. It would be very amusing to have a mailman try his alphastrike with Maw of Chaos :smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

@Zaq
Circle Magic doesn't cut it, you actually need a CL way higher than 40 to beat its SR. GCF works, but you have to jump through even more hoops than for Wings of Flurry.

As I said, I don't deny it works, but it doesn't work if the details aren't carefully laid out. It would be very amusing to have a mailman try his alphastrike with Maw of Chaos :smallbiggrin:

Making consumptive field work is easy, bags of tricks are only 900 GP each, so buying enough to last you a week isn't expensive. Earlier in the thread I posted how you can get a CL of 100, at which point blasphemy or holy word with extraordinary spell aim (or anything else so you don't target yourself) obliterate anything not immune to magic. Wings of flurry can be put on a runestaff, and it then uses your CL. Rules for making runestaves are in the MIC, though you'd need to pick another spell to go with it since they need to have 2-5 spells. Perhaps put the entire wings of line of spells on there.

A heavily metamagicked dragon breath spell is also an option, though you'd need to devote most of your build to getting to 2,000 damage so it would die even on a failed save.

[Aharon]

Ah, nice one. I hadn't remembered bag of tricks. Blasphemy and Holy Word are easy to defend against => Silence. The Hecatoncheire as written doesn't have it, so I agree it would work.

I'm curious though, are you using cleric as a base class? Or how do you get the Word spells on your list if this is intended to be a mailman variant?

Runestaves with Wings of Flurry only work for sorcerers, since the spell in the runestave has to be on your class list.

[Hirax]

Ah, nice one. I hadn't remembered bag of tricks. Blasphemy and Holy Word are easy to defend against => Silence. The Hecatoncheire as written doesn't have it, so I agree it would work.

I'm curious though, are you using cleric as a base class? Or how do you get the Word spells on your list if this is intended to be a mailman variant?

Runestaves with Wings of Flurry only work for sorcerers, since the spell in the runestave has to be on your class list.

You can use cleric or wizard, though you need arcane disciple (luck) to miracle in consumptive field if you're an arcane caster. Blasphemy/holy word were just examples for if you're a cleric. Any arcane class can use a runestaff as long as they can make the UMD check. The staff doesn't care what class you use to provide it the arcane spell necessary to activate it, so you only need to make a UMD check to pretend you're a sorcerer. Just like a specialist wizard UMDing a wand from a forbidden school.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just an extract from the wall of text in my other post:


How to kill a CR 57 Hecatoncheires
(AKA: Night-Crawler style Uber Teleportation Spring-Attacking)

The Chrono-Legionaire has several attack options, which I will present below:

The Boss-killing attack Routine
Works well against opponents with high AC and extremely dangerous offensive capabilities. For this technique to function to its maximal effect, a large combat area is needed. All power point costs are reduced by 1 because of the Torc of Power Preservation worn.

Assume the following already active buffs:
>> Assimilate (used bag of tricks to summon a small animal and toasted it) less than an hour in advance. (lasts 1 hour) [16 pp]
>>Teleport trigger (lasts 20 hours) [12 pp]
1.
-- Swift Action Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Precognition Offensive (19 pp), gain psionic focus, swift action manifest another Temporal Acceleration (19 pp)
>Divert Teleport
>>Apply oil of bless weapon, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Schism, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Control Body, solicit psi-crystal, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
--STD action: Prescience Offensive (19 pp),
--Full Attack Charge the foe: Leap Attack, Power attack all 17 BAB, Expend Focus for deep impact
--Schismed STD action: dimension door away [6 pp]
2.
--Mental Schismed STD action: Dimension Swap
--Mental Immediate action: Divert Teleport to within 10 feet of Hecatoncheires
--Ready Mental Regular STD action dimension door away (upon completion of charge or upon receiving a successful attack)
--Mental Move action: regain focus
--Mental Free Action Expend Focus (for deep impact)
--Physical Charge (power attacking, leap attacking, jumping the whole way (10 feet) with no running start).
>>Readied action triggered, d-door away.

Rinse and Repeat #2 until the foe is dead. (You have 20 rounds before schism runs out).

Why does this sequence work? With assimilate our initiative modifier goes up to +9, which is just 1 under the Heca's initiative bonus. I think it's fair to say that whomever wins is initiative is primarily determined by a die roll. If all else fails, we have a teleport trigger in place that will whisk us to safety at the first sign of danger. We'll just try again in a few rounds. After everything starts rolling we begin the TP in TP out attack sequence. We'll always be able to TP outside the Heca's charging range (which is 200 feet). Every round we have a readied dimension door prepared against his possible readied action that he might have to attack us. So, as long as we have a clear area (of 200+ feet), we'll never get touched by the beast. As you can see below, we deal enough damage (with a high enough probability of success) to take him out in under 10 rounds.


Attack bonuses:
Great Sword: +32 [17 BAB + 2 charging + 13 INT + 9* Enhancement + 7 insight -17 power attack + 1 competance] (We need to roll a 2 or better to hit him -- a one automatically fails anyways) [Since we have 5% failure rate, we assume that one fails. So we assume 9 successful attacks in 10 rounds]
*Because of outsider & mage bane the enhancement is +9, making this an effective epic weapon. Given that it is already cold-iron and bless weapon makes it good, we now bypass his DR.


Damage Calculations:
Sword: 2x[2d6 Base + 9 enhancement 17*4 Power Attack + 8 insight + 13 INT] + 4d6 (mage and outsider bane)


Total Average (assuming all hits): 224 on one attack per round. With the Heca's 50 Fast Healing, that's only 174 net damage per round. Given that the Heca has 1048 hitpoints, we can take him out in 6 successful attacks. (With one assumed failure this takes 7 rounds).

Each round (after the initial buffing round) we must spend 8 (6 for d-door + 2 for swap) power points per round. So over 7 rounds we spend 56 power points (plus the initial 108 pp counting the assimilate and divert teleport). So, all in all, we spend 164 pp (under half our total pp for the day) to kill a monster which is nearly three times our CR. Given the right environment I feel confident that we have at least a 75 to 90% chance of success the first time around, with almost a 0% chance of death.

The What Ifs:
That's a lot of buffs. What if they somehow get hosed?
Although it's expensive, we can maintain a temporal acceleration for as many rounds as we need to rebuff with temporal iteration. This increases buffing costs by 8 pp per round, but it can be done. This is really only economical for extending temporal acceleration 1 round, however. If one wants to extend the acceleration for more than one round nested accelerations become more economical (15 pp for a nested 2 round acceleration as opposed to 16 pp for two temporal iterations, 19 pp for a nested 3 round acceleration as opposed to 24 for 3 temporal iterations.) Bottom-line: the Chrono-Legionaire can re-buff at the drop of a hat.
What if the Hecatoncheires summons his buddy?
More XP for us. The Hecatoncheires is Huge, meaning there's a decent space we can move around in where he grants us full cover against his brother's attacks. We kill the first, 'port away to safety, reset the necessary buffs (the bless weapon oil, most importantly) and 'port back to restart the routine and kill Heca number 2. Failing that, just port away and come back when Heca 2's summon ends.
What if the Hecatoncheires uses his Fly spell-like ability?
Psionic Fly is on the Legionnaire's powers known list. In fact, moving to three dimensions makes the summoning ability of the hecatoncheires less useful, as now there is that much more space in which to manuver where we are covered. There's no restriction on teleporting to a point in open space.
What if both Heca's ready actions?
It remains that careful teleportation placement means only one can target us at a time.
Divert Teleport says you must have studied the area carefully.
You didn't read all of the power description. It also says that being very familiar will suffice. When one reads the teleport spell description one can readily see that merely seeing the target location qualifies us to be "very familiar."
Massive Area Effects - and by massive I mean stuff like Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, thankfully banned) or Eruption (Serpent Kingdoms). When we've got an area of square miles, you might be lucky enough to catch the Legionnaire by surprise.
Karmic Strike - this annoying feat can give foes reactive attacks against the Legionnaire beyond what readied defenses can provide. Still, the Legionnaire does a lot more damage in a single hit than the Karmic Strike likely will, and they still have to hit the AC of 44 (or 56 if properly buffed).
Mobs with tons of readied actions - since Synchronicity is banned, this is the only way to get enough readied actions to possibly target the Legionnaire. It may be difficult for more than a few to notice and attack the Legionnaire while he guerilla bombs them with Energy Burst, and they still have to hit that AC.
Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock - these teleportation-negating spells are the Legionnaire's Achilles heel. Fortunately, you can't 'port into a D-Locked area by accident. Dimensional Anchor is more dangerous, offering no saving throw and requiring the Legionnaire to dispel his own buffs in order to remove it. The Legionnaire can supply his own dispels and pump them off in rapid order if need be. The best defense would be using the Legionnaire's Psionic Fly and a good impacting magebane charge to kill any threatening caster in one good smack.

Simply put, the reason this guy is the ultimate gish is because of his adaptability in any campaign setting. If one removes the valorous weapon (which isn't even necessary to kill the Heca, but speeds up the process greatly), then this build is non-setting specific. Furthermore, this build does not need persistant magic to be a viable gish. At twelfth level he gains the ability to make deep impact leap attacks, which means he's quite a capable in melee early on. This is a build that is themed on teleportive mobility and the Chrono-Legionnaire delivers on this promise. Not only is the Chrono-legionnaire capable of teleporting himself, but he can teleport his enemies, his enemies equipment, or his allies.

[Campbellk8105]

Forgive me if I may be wrong, but couldn't a properly equipped goliath War Hulking hurler effectively kill it?

Craft a big, spiked, lead ball coated in trollbane. Going with a plain 60 Str, that'd be 1359d6 and by passing the regen. 266x4x4x4x4x2x2=272,384.

There's probably something I'm missing but, eh, tired and am running on 3 hours of sleep in 40 hours.

[Aharon]

@Hirax
I thought if you activate an item via UMD, you generally use the items caster level?

@Dusk Eclipse
When browsing through, I didn't read the spoiler. This is the kind of detailed account I like :smallbiggrin:

[Gandariel]

Also, about the Chrono Legionarie.. okay, at the end of its turn it's over 200 feet away from Mr. H...
on his turn, he throws 50 boulders at you.
how do you get away? do you have something to run away?
I'm not familiar with psionics, i assume you have a "contingency" teleport set to run away if he attacks you, right?
Good!
So first turn, you pop in, do your attack, teleport 250 feet away (more or less)
Hecatoncheires's turn: Full attack with boulders, 50 of them.
this triggers your teleport, you have effectively ran away from it.
it'll take a couple rounds at least to get back, prepare, and get ready to strike again... enough for the Heca to fast heal.

Please, correct me if this is wrong

[Hirax]

@Hirax
I thought if you activate an item via UMD, you generally use the items caster level?


Caster level doesn't factor into the cost to make a runestaff, so the spells in one don't really have a native caster level. If a runestaff did take on the CL it was made at, a CL 100 runestaff would be both the same price and have the same UMD check as a CL 20 runestaff. Additionally, if you were to use this text from UMD to determine caster level:

"your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20"

Then anyone* that cranks UMD can generate CL 100 effects with a skill check. You still need to have the spell to feed the runestaff, so it's still only limited to casters activating one, but pumping UMD checks is much easier than pumping CL, so I'd stick with this bit from the runestaff rules taking precedence:

"The spell is treated exactly as if the wielder cast the spell herself, including caster level, save DC, and any other effects related to the spell."

*this is as simple as using Frog God's fane to get skill focus as an extra feat for a meager (at high levels) GP cost, then taking a 1 level dip into loremaster for a free feat and UMD as a class skill.

[Fable Wright]

Also, about the Chrono Legionarie.. okay, at the end of its turn it's over 200 feet away from Mr. H...
on his turn, he throws 50 boulders at you.
how do you get away? do you have something to run away?
I'm not familiar with psionics, i assume you have a "contingency" teleport set to run away if he attacks you, right?
Good!
So first turn, you pop in, do your attack, teleport 250 feet away (more or less)
Hecatoncheires's turn: Full attack with boulders, 50 of them.
this triggers your teleport, you have effectively ran away from it.
it'll take a couple rounds at least to get back, prepare, and get ready to strike again... enough for the Heca to fast heal.

Please, correct me if this is wrong
The beauty of it is that in the first round, the schismed standard action can be used to ready psionic dimension door; after Mr. H begins his attack routine, he has to finish it as he started it. So, after he begins swinging, the schismed standard action is used to D-Door it out of there, and Mr. H has to waste his rounds swinging at the air, or moving. Same thing on the second-last round of combat D-Door away.

Also, a problem with your example is that it wouldn't take any time at all for the Chrono-Legionaire to get back into the fight after he leaves; he (or his psicrystal, who he's sharing Divert Teleport with) uses Divert Teleport to teleport somewhere else in range. He could set up Teleport Trigger as his standard action instead of ready D-Door away, allowing him to continue combat without missing a beat.

The attack routine could actually be improved somewhat; the purpose for Schism is to grant an additional standard action to be teleported back into the fight, but with Psicrystal sharing divert teleport and the Chrono-Legionaire using Inconsistant Location, he can do the same thing, but either without schism, and setting everything up at a much earlier level, or keeping a standard action open each round for additional powers.

Let's see... the Chrono-Legionaire could actually beat it starting at level 16.

Damage loss: Most of the magic equipment that the Chrono-Legionaire has are for buffing AC; dropping all of that, but keeping the weapon and the tome of clear thoughts, damage drops to:

Great Sword: +32 [13 BAB + 2 charging + 9 INT + 9 Enhancement + 6 Insight -10 power attack] (We need to roll a 2 or better to hit him -- a one automatically fails anyways) [Since we have 5% failure rate, we assume that one fails. So we assume 9 successful attacks in 10 rounds]

Sword: 2x[2d6 Base + 9 enhancement 10*4 Power Attack + 9 INT + 7 Insight] + 4d6 (mage and outsider bane)

This reduces damage per round to 158 on one attack per round; minus the heca's 50 fast healing, this goes down to 108 damage. This means that it would take 10 rounds to kill the heca; and then +1 from an assumed miss, so 11 rounds.

Round routine:
9pp (Teleport Trigger; lasts 16 hours)
7pp Psionic fly (Minutes/level duration; always gives the legionnaire somewhere to teleport to, outside of melee range.)

1.
-- Swift Action Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Precognition Offensive (16 pp), gain psionic focus, swift action manifest another Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Divert Teleport (13pp) shared with psicrystal, standard action manifest Inconsitant Location (11pp)
>>Apply oil of bless weapon, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Control Body (7pp), solicit psi-crystal (5pp), move towards charging distance (10 feet away), swift action for one more Temporal Acceleration (11 pp)
>>>STD action: Prescience Offensive (16 pp),
--Full Attack Charge the foe: Leap Attack, Power attack all 13 BAB, Expend Focus for deep impact
--STD action: Ready D-Door for after Mr. H starts attacking


2.
--Mental Swift action: Inconstistant Location
--Psicrystal Mental Immediate action: Divert Teleport to within 10 feet of Hecatoncheires
--Ready Mental Regular STD action ready action to dimension door away (upon completion of charge or upon receiving a successful attack)
--Mental Move action: regain focus
--Mental Free Action Expend Focus (for deep impact)
--Physical Charge (power attacking, leap attacking, jumping the whole way (10 feet) with no running start).
>>Readied action triggered, d-door away.

Using 7 pp per round, and the initial 132 power points, means a total of 209 power points; within the character's power point pool (219 = 147 base + 9*(EML/2)). Overall, the character would need to devote all of his wealth and almost all of his power points for the day, but he would be able to beat Mr. H at level 16.

[Randomguy]

after Mr. H begins his attack routine, he has to finish it as he started it. So, after he begins swinging, the schismed standard action is used to D-Door it out of there, and Mr. H has to waste his rounds swinging at the air, or moving.
Where does it say that you can't mix melee and ranged attacks in a full attack?

[kardar233]

Yeah, sure, you can do that with a melee full-caster.

Assuming you're allowed to stack size increases on gauntlets onto your unarmed strike damage, a Kalashtar Monk2/PsyWar5/Slayer9/Warshaper1/PsyWar+3 can hit the Hecatoncheires twice for each time it hits him (using Imp. Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike and Rob's Gambit), dealing 192d8 damage and change each. Manifesting Claws of the Vampire (and, if necessary, enchanting your Heavy Gauntlets with Bodyfeeder) gives you an average of 422 healing on each hit after DR. And if Harry Hec summons a friend of his, all the more AoOs and healing.

[Fable Wright]

Where does it say that you can't mix melee and ranged attacks in a full attack?


This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack

So, it takes a full round action to complete; you need to take the entire round to do it. The full attack routine for the Heca is greatswords or boulders; one or the other. If it said that you could split them, then you could. If you went by RAI, then the DM might decide that the Heca could use boulders in some hands and greatswords in the other, you could use this argument for the boulders being thrown weapons:


Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Bolded for emphasis. Boulders, as a matter of fact, do not have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column. Now, in Actions in Combat under Ranged Attacks, we see



Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

The Chrono Legionnaire can merely teleport 60ft away from the Heca to get out of range after the first melee attack. Since the Heca already made it's first attack in the round, it can't charge, and so the Legionnaire is immune to any damage the Heca might try to do in the round.