Optimizing the vampire?

[The Underlord]

Iy is said that the vampire is one of the weakest classes. Is it so bad, you can't have actually do anything(think core monk in 3.5) or is just bad? How would you go about trying to optimize these guys?

Don't say "Play something else" I want to know how to optimize the vampire class not play something else.

[Kurald Galain]

Probably by taking the charge package and the Kulkor Arms Master paragon path.

The main problem for optimizing a vampire is that you simply don't have a lot of choices building one. You can't pick powers, and he doesn't get class feats. There's not a whole lot to distinguish two random vampires.

[Tegu8788]

Would a hybrid or multiclass help to optimize the vampire in your view? It could keep the flavor the same, but give it access to some other mechanics and better support.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, there's the 4E Vampire Optimization Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27413457/Stay_Thirsty,_My_Friends:_A_Vampire_Handbook?pg=1) . :smalltongue:

[The Underlord]

Yeah I googled it, but it seemed more like a troll post than actually being helpful :smallannoyed:.

Can you even hybrid the vampire? I don't have DDI. I can't find the vampire multiclass feat anywhere.

[MeeposFire]

Iy is said that the vampire is one of the weakest classes. Is it so bad, you can't have actually do anything(think core monk in 3.5) or is just bad? How would you go about trying to optimize these guys?

Don't say "Play something else" I want to know how to optimize the vampire class not play something else.

It is not 3.5 monk bad. The vampire is usable in most games. It will fall behind in a high OP game but that is much better than the 3.5 monk which takes real effort to make usable in a normal 3.5 game. What the vampire really lacks is variety in builds since most of what you do will be very similar unless you hybrid or multiclass vampire (which yes is possible).

If you look at the vampire there are several things you will notice that limit you. You are an implement class using the least supported power source that is a limit. You are very tough to kill overall and combined with an artificer you can break open the healing surge economy for the entire party. So lets look at the powers.

At wills are decent. You have a mba power (charging is mostly still in play). You also have THP generator for toughness and short range power. You can target any defense.

Encounter powers-you have blood drain which is needed for your toughness. You have only one set of tradable encounter powers. I would recommend multiclasing so you can trade those out for better. By using rogue (minor action attacks), warlord/bard (mba using/boosting attacks), and other classes you can replace your encounter power for something better AND you save an encounter surge (increasing the chance you can heal for no cost at the end of an encounter).

Dailies are mostly solid. The close blasts deal striker damage to many targets and later add status effects, mobility, and a healing surge to the table. Dominates are also always welcome. The only one I am not too happy with is the level 5 daily so if you can find a daily worth using from your multiclass you might consider taking one.


You can improve on a standard vampire though there is a lower ceiling than for some classes. It is still much better compared to how many 3.5 classes fared since even a basic vampire can be a decent character in a party (unlike a 3.5 monk).

My favorite trick with a vampire is to use one in conjunction with an artificer. First the artificer can heal the vampire without making the vampire spend a surge. Second after the fight any surges the vampire has over their maximum+1 can be used to recharge the artificers healing powers. Every time you do this you extend the life of the party for the adventuring day as the vampire becomes the artificers battery.


Also that is the joke handbook. Somebody else started a handbook but they have not tried to update in a while so I would not think it was worth looking it up.

[OracleofWuffing]

Yeah, you can Hybrid the Vampire. I mean, heck, you can have a vampire vampire vampire, so why not a half-vampire half-vampire vampire? :smallbiggrin:

Dragon 400. +1 to Fort or Will, 6 HP at level 1, 2.5 per level gained. You can choose Blood Drinker as a power (and gain a second usage of it at level 7), you're undead, vulnerable 5 radiant and sunlight damages you. You can Hybrid Talent to get Darkvision and resist 5 necrotic, or +2 to AC in cloth with no shield.

Then you get Blood Is Life, Enduring Soul, and Hidden Might as usual.

[The Underlord]

What classes are good hybrids for the vampire?

[Zaq]

Yeah, you can Hybrid the Vampire. I mean, heck, you can have a vampire vampire vampire, so why not a half-vampire half-vampire vampire? :smallbiggrin:

Amateur. We all know it's about the vampire vampire vampire zombie lich. (You can also make a vampire vampire vampire zombie lich werewolf, but it's uuuuugly and might not quite work.)

[Blackfang108]

What classes are good hybrids for the vampire?

Anything with Dex and Cha.

Sorceror and Rogue fit, and I think there are a few others, too.

Best way to hybrid a Vampire: Pick as many powers from the other class as you can.

[Sorcerer Blob]

What classes are good hybrids for the vampire?

My personal favorite Hybrid for both the Vampire and just period is the Vampire|Cleric of any race (I believe I've built one of both Human and Vryloka) with the following feats: Divine Vampire and Hybrid Training (to pick up the Cleric armor proficiency)

[The Underlord]

Divine vampire?

[Sorcerer Blob]

Divine vampire?

It's a feat listed in Dragon 400 in the same article that gives the Hybrid rules for Vampire and some of the other Essentials classes. Basically, it allows you to avoid the Vampire's weakness to sun and lose your Vulnerable 5 Radiate, among other things. It also gives you some nifty "I'm a Vampire Healer" encounter fun.

The Vampire as a class is a great idea, but sadly one that was not well implemented. The Vampire itself is salvageable if you enjoy Hybridizing classes (as I do) and a Hybrid Vampire can be a ton of fun to play while still giving you that Vampire flavor that you were likely looking for.

[Shatteredtower]

The vampire doesn't fare that well in a party game because it's more of a lurker than a striker. Surprisingly, this might make it the most effective class for solo play. Even if that's true, you can expect your encounters to take forever. The game just isn't well suited to solo play, even for characters that can hide in places without air and have means to bypass the normal limitations of healing surges.

[surfarcher]

What classes are good hybrids for the vampire?
The Sorc (tip - pick up radiant resistance) is good for multiclassing.

Sorc and Rogue are good for a hybrid option. And surprisingly I hear the Paladin is a good hybrid option too.

[Blashimov]

I'm not sure what level your campaign is going to, but I've played a Vryloka Vampire through 6th and it is absolutely fantastic. Defender level defenses, excellent HP and regaining thereof, and of course a melee basic attack that does great damage and doesn't target ac, resistance to a very common enemy attack type (necrotic), regeneration, and darkvision.... If you get a tactical warlord in the party, you can easily laugh as you mow down enemies. I'll break down my build for you:
I start with a 19 dex and 17 cha, so I can have con 13.
Offense:
The striker feature is more than warlock's curse, and you can apply it every attack.

Vampire slam does the same damage as twin strike at low level, targets a defense 2-3 lower, gives you some control with push, and you can take simple bonus basic attack damage effects.
Ki focus: +1 damage vs bloodied
Gauntlets of blood: +2 damage vs bloodied
Bracers of Mighty Striking: +2 damage, only a level two item.
1st level damage: 1d10+4+3 = 12.5.
5th: 1d10+5dex+6cha+2bracers+1magic = 19.5 +3vs bloodied.

Dark beckoning: do you have any idea how often a charisma+2 vs will attack hits? Plus: more control. Even if you don't have any handy hazards, you've pretty much got them in melee now.

Blood drinker: with any sort of healer in the party, and if you have a tasty defender around, you can use this every encounter to power feral assault. Oh, and do an extra d10 damage.

Feral Assault: Pretty much kills one or two things. (25 damage to two things, or 34 to one). When you really want something dead, combine slam+blood drinker+action point+feral assault = 59 damage at 5th.

Swarm of shadows ally friendly blast that does 25 damage, makes you invisible, and teleports? Yes please.

Unfettered Hunger: This I will admit is so-so from an optimization point, since it might kill you. On the other hand, you basically kill all the things. Your warlord can use his turn to have you deal 1d10+18 for the rest of the encounter. And push one. And an extra 3 vs bloodied.

Defense:

Your AC is not that great if you start with ki focus, at 16. One alternative is to take unarmored agility first, which gets you 18, not bad.

Taste of life: 5-6 temps at will.

Lifeblood: another set of temps. Or running away (shift 7 is pretty sweet). Or another bonus to attack with Feral Assault.

Notice that your AC goes up (relative to other characters) again at 4th level. 22 AC is easy at 5th level, which is totally defender class. Plus, you can get defensive items:

Iron body ki focus: decent +1d10 crit damage, and oh, resist 3 to their attacks. Note that a a ki focus you can use it with any power or weapon you care to pick up. And you are great at ranged basics.

Try to get the cloth armor that gives you regeneration equal to the ongoing damage you were just taking. Turn something that can quickly bring you close to death to, again, leaving you laughing surrounded by corpses.

Lastly, why do you need so many options? Are there going to be more vampires in your party? Consider it choosing the vampire vs. any other class. And most classes have relatively optimal options at each level.

People complain about the encounter powers too. Form of the bat? Fantastic if you need to get somewhere quickly and sneakily.

And don't forget Dex/Cha are the most fun stats for skills, and strength of blood fills out the options. Even with a strength penalty you can end up with 14+1/2 level athletics, for example.

[NotScaryBats]

The worst part of a vampire is scaling. Paragon + Vamps lag waaay behind. While other strikers get awesome bags of goodies, like 5 dozen feats for bonuses on sneak attack and warlock's curse, you get nothing.

Heroic Vampires are just as good as any striker in most games.

[vasharanpaladin]

You optimize the vampire by playing anything else and taking the Vampirism feat. Still ill-advised. :smallyuk:

[S.K. Ren]

My favorite optimization for Vampire is through Half-elf Dilettante. Since you get the MC qualification without the loss of surges. This is a variant on the inescapable and unkillable defender I made using it.
Nox Gallows, level 30
Revenant, Battlemind, Gladiator Champion, Ceaseless Guardian
Psionic Study: Persistent Harrier
Guardian Mindfulness: Guardian Mindfulness Constitution
Choose your Race in Life: Half-Elf
Background: Necromancer's Chattel (Necromancer's Chattel Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 28, Dex 24, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.


AC: 46 Fort: 43 Reflex: 43 Will: 43
HP: 217 Surges: 18 Surge Value: 54

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +23, Heal +23, Endurance +31

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +22, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +18, History +16, Intimidate +17, Nature +18, Perception +18, Religion +16, Stealth +22, Streetwise +15, Thievery +22, Athletics +17

FEATS
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Half-Elf Soul
Level 4: Adept Dilettante
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Death's Quickening (retrained to Ghostly Vitality at Level 21)
Level 10: Psionic Vampire
Level 11: Death Scorned
Level 12: Fierce Vitality
Level 14: Versatile Master
Level 16: Uncanny Dodge
Level 18: Combat Reflexes (retrained to Armor Specialization (Scale) at Level 22)
Level 20: Improved Initiative (retrained to Heavy Blade Opportunity at Level 23)
Level 21: Devouring Demand
Level 22: Rapid Mind Spike
Level 24: Prescient Retaliation
Level 26: Eerie Resurgence
Level 28: Restless Dead
Level 30: Epic Will

POWERS
Battlemind at-will 1: Conductive Defense
Battlemind at-will 1: World-Slipping Advance
Dilettante: Dark Beckoning
Battlemind daily 1: Psionic Anchor
Battlemind utility 2: Telepathic Challenge
Battlemind at-will 3: Wrenching Claw
Battlemind daily 5: Nightmare Vortex
Battlemind utility 6: Warning Premonition
Battlemind at-will 7: Forceful Reversal (replaces World-Slipping Advance)
Battlemind daily 9: Inexorable Death Strike
Battlemind utility 10: Guardian's Speed
Battlemind at-will 13: Brutal Barrage (replaces Conductive Defense)
Battlemind daily 15: Mind Blade (replaces Psionic Anchor)
Battlemind utility 16: Sudden Rush
Battlemind at-will 17: Ruinous Grasp (replaces Wrenching Claw)
Battlemind daily 19: Mind Wrack (replaces Inexorable Death Strike)
Battlemind utility 22: Immortal Endurance
Battlemind at-will 23: Might of the Ogre (replaces Ruinous Grasp)
Battlemind daily 25: Vitality Theft (replaces Nightmare Vortex)
Battlemind at-will 27: Brilliant Recovery (replaces Forceful Reversal)
Battlemind daily 29: Omniscient Strike (replaces Mind Wrack)

ITEMS
Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Verve Elderscale Armor +6, Periapt of Recovery +6, Nullifying Ring (epic tier), Crowd Killer Shield Light Shield (paragon tier), Jagged Longsword +5, Bracers of Tactical Blows (epic tier), Boots of Dancing (paragon tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier)

Hey look at that, I have 18 surges and can regain 1 per encounter thanks to Psionic Vampire :P

So yeah Half-Elf Dilettante + Adept Dilettante is probably the best way to be a vampire with no drawbacks.

[Tegu8788]

That sounds awesome, the fluff is still an undead stalker but is mechanically valid. When Battlemind is used to improve a class, that says something.

[S.K. Ren]

You say that as if Battlemind is a bad class. Personally its one of my favorites. Oh I think you meant to say Vampire, not Battlemind :P

Anyways I feel that if you went the whole 9 yards on a Half-Elf MC Vampire it would be one of the better ways to optimize it since you can dodge the horrible surge penalty.

Try a Vampire MC Any Divine class and take the Divine Vampire feat.

[Sol]

vampires are pretty much fine (if choiceless) for heroic tier, but get pretty awful pretty fast after that.

The MC feats are all pretty fun, and hybrid isn't all bad either. If you did go hybrid cleric/vamp, just take battle cleric lore instead of hybrid talent for armor proficiencies.

[Zaq]

vampires are pretty much fine (if choiceless) for heroic tier, but get pretty awful pretty fast after that.

The MC feats are all pretty fun, and hybrid isn't all bad either. If you did go hybrid cleric/vamp, just take battle cleric lore instead of hybrid talent for armor proficiencies.

Low Heroic. Past 6 or 7, they really start failing to measure up. It's a shame, because the concept of what they did with the bizarre healing surge mechanic is actually interesting, but pretty much everything about the Vampire ends in failure.

[obryn]

Probably by taking the charge package and the Kulkor Arms Master paragon path.
KAM was hit by the nerf bat at least a year ago, and won't do vampires any good.


At any rate - vampires can do pretty well, overall, in a low- to mid-op game, just like Seekers and Sentinels. They can hold their own fairly well; the real problem is their lack of choice. So don't go thinking they're terrible in the same sense that a 3.5 Fighter or Monk becomes terrible.

Vampires have a few perks. They have attacks that can target any defense, and their Cha-based at-will attack has a built in accuracy buff so you can (and really should) go with an 18 pre-racial Dexterity. You get a decent assortment of skills. Although there aren't a ton of feats which specifically help you, you have plenty of room for all those "generally good" feats everyone wants - so snag Unarmored Defenses, Superior Reflexes, Superior Will, Great Fortitude, and Resilient Focus. Don't overlook Durability, either. The choice between Holy Symbol and Ki Focus Expertise is really a coin-flip; just take one.

So if you're asking, "How do I make a good Vampire," the answer is, "Same way you do any class, just more directly." Take non-situational feats that provide good, constant bonuses.

-O

[allonym]

KAM was hit by the nerf bat at least a year ago, and won't do vampires any good.

You will note that this thread is about a year old and was necro'd by Blashimov for some reason.

[obryn]

You will note that this thread is about a year old and was necro'd by Blashimov for some reason.

....well ... um... I do now!

ahem. :smallredface:

(I am also still writing 2012 on my checks, so...)

[The LOBster]

Amateur. We all know it's about the vampire vampire vampire zombie lich. (You can also make a vampire vampire vampire zombie lich werewolf, but it's uuuuugly and might not quite work.)

Or the vampire vampire vampire zombie werewolf dracolich, which is actually ridiculously awesome.

[WitchSlayer]

I wish they would release the hybrid option for the cha-secondary Monk already. That would go great with Vampire.

[Tegu8788]

It wouldn't be very hard to figure one out, just model it off the existing ones.

[Zaq]

I wish they would release the hybrid option for the cha-secondary Monk already. That would go great with Vampire.

How would it be great, exactly? I don't see what it could do better than a straight Monk could do. OK, Vampire Slam is an MBA, but there are other ways around that.

[Dan Arcueid]

How would it be great, exactly? I don't see what it could do better than a straight Monk could do. OK, Vampire Slam is an MBA, but there are other ways around that.

I think it would be a nice flavor thing as monks can use any weapon they are proficient with as an implement (next best class that can do this is swordmage who isn't going to mesh in any way stat wise) and as such monk would probably make vampire better rather than vampire making monk better. One might ignore slam on monk and get some utility from taste of life if you're content with the damage output and pushing/sliding of enemies with the Monk power by itself.

The other advantage i could kinda see is paragon hybrid for the ability to get the hybrid talent feat twice just so you could take the monk, vampire, and unarmored agility abilities for a +6 AC. also with not needing to care about damage output for weapon damage die get a staff to use hafted defense for a total +7 AC and +1Reflex from feats alone.

You can technically do all this now but not well due to the fact all the secondary attributes for monk favor wisdom and constitution making many powers hard to use without spreading yourself out more on stats, because vampires hybrid akwardly because both their stats are super important to them to function well it's hard to make cut back on either.

Personally i don't think there is a huge reason to play something like this over regular monk but I've found if you really want to play the vampire class to have alot of vampire like abilities, it's less about making the other class stronger and more about making the vampire class better/have more available utility.

[GiantkillerJack]

Has anyone else ever considered the possibility of paying an artificer to bind a shadow elemental into said vampire's skin? I tried to do this in a game that self destructed (for other reasons). The DM said I needed a new feat for non-basic elemental binding, but that it could be done. My friend was Puerto Rican, and wanted everyone to call him "Tan vampire."

Also, he wanted me to forge him a "ring of inflict harm," but didn't get the fact that I was not yet capable of forging rings.

[MeeposFire]

Has anyone else ever considered the possibility of paying an artificer to bind a shadow elemental into said vampire's skin? I tried to do this in a game that self destructed (for other reasons). The DM said I needed a new feat for non-basic elemental binding, but that it could be done. My friend was Puerto Rican, and wanted everyone to call him "Tan vampire."

Also, he wanted me to forge him a "ring of inflict harm," but didn't get the fact that I was not yet capable of forging rings.

Oddly artificer is one class that actually has a synergy with the vampire. Its basic healing power is regained by members of the party giving up healing surges. In any fight that a vampire has surges greater than his max+1 all of those extra surges can go to the artificer healing powers. In that encounter the artificer gets to heal allies for free at no cost to the vampire. The vampire just wants the max+1 so that he can auto full heal. This combo can potentially keep a party going longer in the day.