Armor for a Tank

[NOhara24]

Hey all,

My current campaign character is (hopefully) going to be coming in to a decent amount of money soon. Because of that, I started designing a set of armor that would help me better fufill my role as tank. Here's what I've got in mind:


Nimble Adamantine Battle Plate of Blurring

Battle Plate (+2,500 GP) (ACP +7) (AC +9)

Greater Iron Ward Diamond (+8,000 GP) (DR +5)

Adamantine (+15,000 GP) (DR +3) (ACP -1)

Greater Blurring: (+8,000 GP) (20% miss chance for 10 minutes/day. (On/off at will.) (+3 bonus)

Nimble: (+2,000 GP) (ACP -2) (+1 Max Dex) (+1 bonus)

Ghost Ward (+2000 GP) (Add total enhancement bonus to Touch AC) (+1 bonus)

Total Cost: 75,500 GP (w/ crystal) 67,500 (w/o crystal)
Total DR: 8
Total Enhancement Bonus: +5 (+50,000 GP)
Total Miss Chance: 20%
Hardness: 20
HP: 53
ACP: -4

I wanted to try to get as much DR as possible, because it would do well with the Delayed Damage Pool that my character has. (He's a crusader, obviously). I liked Greater Blurring because it provides a decent miss chance, and as we all know, Miss Chance > AC any day of the week. That and the best way to deal with damage is to not take it at all. I think that armor design does it well.

I'm always looking for suggestions, and I can't help but think that while this design is efficient at dealing with physical damage, that it's kind of all over the place as far as enchantments go. (I need nimble because it raises the Max Dex to +2, and my character has combat reflexes.) If anyone has any idea about how to either stack on more DR or more of a miss chance, even if the other enchantments have to go, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Demonic_Spoon]

The Apparatus of Kwalish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab) is pretty tanklike.

In all seriousness though, add the gleaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#gleaming) enchantment? Soulfire is a must have, as is that watchmacallit enchantment that protect against rust attacks. The ethereal enchantment is also nice.

Drop the Blurring, take a ring of Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking) and a Major Cloak of DisplacementLESSER Cloak of Displacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofDisplacementLesser).

Use a +1 Eager Parrying Smoking(Lod) Ethereal Reaver(Use the complete psionic version) as weapon.

Cube of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cubeofForce) can make you completely invulnerable.

Also throw in the halfweight enchantment in there somewhere and make it Mechanus Gear, not Battleplate.

Minor Tangent, also, don't be a tank in D&D, it doesn't really work, even with goad.

And stack on the mundane modifications (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12795.msg432391#msg432391) of course.

You could end up with something like a Reinforced Oerthblooded Pure Ore Segmented Vital Coverage Gloryborn Ysgardian Heartwire Muffling Leightwieght Ceremonial Dwarvencraft Keeled Gleaming Soulfire Bluegleam Halfweight Mechanus Gear

[Greenish]

There's an item in MoI that casts GMW with CL 20 1/day. I wonder if there's a similar one somewhere for Magic Vestments…

[Jeraa]

As Demonic_Spoon said, the tank role doesn't really work in D&D. It doesn't matter how hard it is to hit you if the monsters are attacking your friends instead. There is no reliable way to force monsters to attack you over your friends.

That aside, for an unhittable character, focus on miss chances instead of AC. A 50% miss chance applies the same against monsters with a +1 attack bonus as it does against ones with a +1000 attack bonus. Once you've got your miss chance, then worry about armor class (and energy resistances/immunities).

[Demonic_Spoon]

Starmantle Cloak or incorporeality from one source or another(my favourite is the ritual of transfiguration) can also completely eliminate mundane damage from the ballgame(except for serrenwood for incorporeal of course).

[Greenish]

There is no reliable way to force monsters to attack you over your friends.Though a crusader can be extremely persuasive.

[NOhara24]

There is no reliable way to force monsters to attack you over your friends.


You really have no idea how wrong you really are, do you? It's stunning. I'm shocked that someone could be so wrong.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Care to enlighten us?

[NOhara24]

Care to enlighten us?

Defensive Rebuke - You hit anyone else except me? I get an AoO on you.

Thicket of Blades - You try to take a free 5ft and get away? AoO.

Stand Still - See Thicket of Blades. You have to beat my damage roll on a reflex save. You don't beat it? You stay in place.

Iron Guard's Glare - -4 to attacking everyone in the party except me.

Robilar's Gambit - -4 to my own AC, but if you attack me? AoO.

You attack one of my party members? I attack you.
You try to attack me? I attack you.
You try to move from me and attack someone else? Nope, you're staying here.

So, to sum up, not including any of the other feats I have, if you even sneeze in a fight, I attack you.

At this point, your best bet is to try to eliminate me as fast as possible. So you can, you know, act freely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Defensive Rebuke - You hit anyone else except me? I get an AoO on you.

Thicket of Blades - You try to take a free 5ft and get away? AoO.

Stand Still - See Thicket of Blades. You have to beat my damage roll on a reflex save. You don't beat it? You stay in place.

Iron Guard's Glare - -4 to attacking everyone in the party except me.

Robilar's Gambit - -4 to my own AC, but if you attack me? AoO.

You attack one of my party members? I attack you.
You try to attack me? I attack you.
You try to move from me and attack someone else? Nope, you're staying here.

So, to sum up, not including any of the other feats I have, if you even sneeze in a fight, I attack you.

At this point, your best bet is to try to eliminate me as fast as possible. So you can, you know, act freely.

Opponent doesn't bother closing and starts dropping blastomancy down on party members... congratulations, you're pointless.

Going back to OP:

I highly suggest a LESSER Cloak of Displacement. It's 20% miss chance, but it's always on, and not limited in rounds. This obviates your Greater Blurring handily.

I'd also suggest Methril rather than Adamantine. +2 AC is probably better than DR 3/- which does NOT stack with the Greater Iron Ward Diamond anyway. It also improves your touch AC, which is important.

[eulmanis12]

alternatively you could do what my party did once


Pile of boulders inside a bag of holding, We dump it out inside the dungeon between us and the enemy horde leaving a space just wide enough for a single man. The fighter (me) moves up in front, the cleric directly behind keeping me a full health, while both the cleric and the wizard apply buff spells as necesary. The enemy can only come one at a time, and cannot physicaly get to the rest of the party withouth going through me, this required no feats or skills of any type. Jus a bag of holding, a lot of rocks, and a little planning.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I highly suggest a LESSER Cloak of Displacement. It's 20% miss chance, but it's always on, and not limited in rounds. This obviates your Greater Blurring handily.

Ack, I was thinking of the lesser cloak, I thought the greater one was the continual one. /facepalm

[NOhara24]

Opponent doesn't bother closing and starts dropping blastomancy down on party members... congratulations, you're pointless.

Your hypothetical scenario proves nothing. Especially when he said "monsters" in his assertion. If you want to factor in spellcasters, I bring up the point that I don't lose use of my legs as part of a class feature by taking levels in Crusader.

Of course, we all know how spellcasters are in 3.5, and we could go back and forth all day creating scenarios where my current build would/wouldn't be useful, and it still wouldn't matter either way. He said "There is no reliable way to make monsters attack you." I proved him wrong. End of discussion.

Going back to OP:


I highly suggest a LESSER Cloak of Displacement. It's 20% miss chance, but it's always on, and not limited in rounds. This obviates your Greater Blurring handily.

I'd also suggest Methril rather than Adamantine. +2 AC is probably better than DR 3/- which does NOT stack with the Greater Iron Ward Diamond anyway. It also improves your touch AC, which is important.

Ah, the bit about Adamantine and Greater Iron Ward Diamond not stacking. I didn't know that...well, then. Mythril it is then. So I'll still have DR 5, and +2 AC by way of my dodge AC. Interdasting. Thank you sir.

As far as everyone suggesting magical items, cloaks of displacement and whatnot, I've got those on my shopping list. I'm just unsure of how much we're actually going to get paid and want to have a nice set of armor before I start buying other magical items.

[Demonic_Spoon]

There are a lot of monsters that can also cast spells. Also monsters with other forms of movement like burrowing and flying as well as ranged attacks who can completely avoid you.

And seriously, drop blurring, gleaming is much better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your hypothetical scenario proves nothing. Especially when he said "monsters" in his assertion. If you want to factor in spellcasters, I bring up the point that I don't lose use of my legs as part of a class feature by taking levels in Crusader. There are more movement methods which bypass your ability to hit them than you have ability to negate movement. Burrow and Flight are two that completely ignore you that aren't exactly uncommon. Monsters with ranged attacks also occur.


Ah, the bit about Adamantine and Greater Iron Ward Diamond not stacking. I didn't know that...well, then. Mythril it is then. So I'll still have DR 5, and +2 AC by way of my dodge AC. Interdasting. Thank you sir.

As far as everyone suggesting magical items, cloaks of displacement and whatnot, I've got those on my shopping list. I'm just unsure of how much we're actually going to get paid and want to have a nice set of armor before I start buying other magical items.

I would say that a Lesser Cloak of Displacement is far more important to you than armor is. First off, it's a flat 20% miss chance. Even if your AC is so low that your opponent can only miss on a natural 1, you still have that 20% miss chance. It also negates precision-based damage.

Besides, it's actually cheaper to get the cloak and NOT have the +3 equivalent weighing your armor's cost down.

But if you really are shopping for a good +3 equivalent armor enhancement... Ghost Touch. Otherwise incorporeal creatures are going to eat you alive.

[NOhara24]

There are more movement methods which bypass your ability to hit them than you have ability to negate movement. Burrow and Flight are two that completely ignore you that aren't exactly uncommon. Monsters with ranged attacks also occur.



I would say that a Lesser Cloak of Displacement is far more important to you than armor is. First off, it's a flat 20% miss chance. Even if your AC is so low that your opponent can only miss on a natural 1, you still have that 20% miss chance. It also negates precision-based damage.

Besides, it's actually cheaper to get the cloak and NOT have the +3 equivalent weighing your armor's cost down.

But if you really are shopping for a good +3 equivalent armor enhancement... Ghost Touch. Otherwise incorporeal creatures are going to eat you alive.

Alright, I'll look into getting the cloak then. What's the difference between blurring and gleaming though? The SRD doesn't give any specifics on the gleaming enhancement.

[Snowbluff]

Ack, I was thinking of the lesser cloak, I thought the greater one was the continual one. /facepalm

Aren't there rules in the MIC to make items continuous?

[deuxhero]

Depleted uranium mesh is pretty good I'm told.

That said, a cloak of lesser displacement will save you more damage than any ammount of armor.

[Snowbluff]

Depleted uranium mesh is pretty good I'm told.

DU armor? But what if they use Depleted Uranium Crossbows?! :smalleek:

[deuxhero]

Mesh. That's DU sandwiching titanium.

[darkdragoon]

I presume you're a Dwarf as otherwise that proficiency is rather eh.

Dragonrider armor offers some energy resistance and feather fall, but it's based on full plate. I suppose between that and the Energy Clasp? (forget the name, but it's an augment crystal that absorbs X amount of typed damage) you could cover your bases decently.

The best 'soak' for a Crusader is temporary HP, but the amount from things like Heartening are tiny, especially in comparison to Stone Power.

[Incriptus]

I'm not a fan of the Ignore AC crowd, perhaps i'm wrong, but in normal combat it does come up quite a bit in my games. I think that it's almost at the point that its becoming a self defeating prophecy. If AC doesn't matter, Attack Bonus doesn't Matter. As soon as people start neglecting that attack bonus, AC begins to matter again. Regarless, the naysayers . . . They're probably right, depending on which levels your game is traditionally played at. [I spend alot of time a the lower levels]

Next Subject:

Any chance you can snag a level or two of Psychic Warrior?

I'm something of a fan of the Deflective Armor Feat [RoS 137] I've always enjoyed having my Armor applying to Touch Attacks as well. Also while everyone agrees you shouldn't have a shield [Although, perhaps as a ToB character your damage comes from manuvers so this may be worth while] If you have the Shield Ward Feat [PH2 82] you get to apply that to your Touch AC as well. Put a crystal of arrow deflection on that shield and start flirting with an impossible to hit with Ranged Touch Attacks. Those Orbs & Rays aren't so intimidating when your Touch AC is through the roof. Remember the all important Miss Chance tops out at 50%, a high enough AC doesn't. If they're not using True Strike [and they're probably not, remember nobody has a High AC] your going to be better than that 50% [my current experience is a 95% miss chance]. Also it's not as if the two are mutually exclusive.

Next Subject:

Another enhancment that I absolutely love is Mind Armor [MIC 13] Untyped +5 Bonus vs Affecting Abilities. 3 Times a Day. Static Price of 3000 gold.

Next Subject:

Iron Ward Diamond [MIC 26] states: "This damage reduction stacks with similar damage reduction granted by any other source" I'm not sure how it's been declared that does not stack with the 3/- DR from Adamantine Armor. I personally use the Glancing Blows [MIC 25] helps resist those grappling monsters.

[ka_bna]

Soulfire is a must have, as is that watchmacallit enchantment that protect against rust attacks.


I think you mean blueshine, MIC p.9. It costs 1500 gp and you never have nightmares about rust monsters again: the armor is immune to rust and acid effects. Also you get a minor bonus on hide checks, just in case.

[Greenish]

Also while everyone agrees you shouldn't have a shieldHuh? Of course you should have a shield!

Of course, it should be animated, but that goes without saying. Anyway, Parrying Shield (LoM) is probably a better option, since it has no feat prerequisites.

[Xtomjames]

Hey all,

My current campaign character is (hopefully) going to be coming in to a decent amount of money soon. Because of that, I started designing a set of armor that would help me better fufill my role as tank. Here's what I've got in mind:


Nimble Adamantine Battle Plate of Blurring

Battle Plate (+2,500 GP) (ACP +7) (AC +9)

Greater Iron Ward Diamond (+8,000 GP) (DR +5)

Adamantine (+15,000 GP) (DR +3) (ACP -1)

Greater Blurring: (+8,000 GP) (20% miss chance for 10 minutes/day. (On/off at will.) (+3 bonus)

Nimble: (+2,000 GP) (ACP -2) (+1 Max Dex) (+1 bonus)

Ghost Ward (+2000 GP) (Add total enhancement bonus to Touch AC) (+1 bonus)

Total Cost: 75,500 GP (w/ crystal) 67,500 (w/o crystal)
Total DR: 8
Total Enhancement Bonus: +5 (+50,000 GP)
Total Miss Chance: 20%
Hardness: 20
HP: 53
ACP: -4

I wanted to try to get as much DR as possible, because it would do well with the Delayed Damage Pool that my character has. (He's a crusader, obviously). I liked Greater Blurring because it provides a decent miss chance, and as we all know, Miss Chance > AC any day of the week. That and the best way to deal with damage is to not take it at all. I think that armor design does it well.

I'm always looking for suggestions, and I can't help but think that while this design is efficient at dealing with physical damage, that it's kind of all over the place as far as enchantments go. (I need nimble because it raises the Max Dex to +2, and my character has combat reflexes.) If anyone has any idea about how to either stack on more DR or more of a miss chance, even if the other enchantments have to go, I'd be interested to hear it.

I do believe however that you can't actually build this under standard 3.5 rules. It exceeds as written here the max of a +10 bonus. Just at a count you're at 8 or 9, but total bonus isn't calculated based on stacking of individual costs of each enhancement.

[TuggyNE]

I do believe however that you can't actually build this under standard 3.5 rules. It exceeds as written here the max of a +10 bonus. Just at a count you're at 8 or 9, but total bonus isn't calculated based on stacking of individual costs of each enhancement.

I'm not totally sure, but many of these special abilities look to be flat add-ons, rather than +1, +2 etc. The total of 75,500 is also less than the +10 equivalent's 100,000 limit. Am I missing something in your objection here?

(Of course, it also seems the OP has already started making adjustments to this setup. Still, it'd be helpful to know what was or wasn't wrong with the original....)

[Incriptus]

Anyway, Parrying Shield (LoM) is probably a better option, since it has no feat prerequisites.

While Parrying Shield does not have the prereq [and I do agree a feat for +1 shield bonus to AC is not worthwhile], Shield Ward also applies to "checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip attempts against you". That may just tip the balance [excuse the pun] on those trip attempts or grapple attempts.

So yeah, it's up to debate but if your not a bonus feat class I would probably agree with you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Defensive Rebuke - You hit anyone else except me? I get an AoO on you.

Thicket of Blades - You try to take a free 5ft and get away? AoO.

Stand Still - See Thicket of Blades. You have to beat my damage roll on a reflex save. You don't beat it? You stay in place.

Iron Guard's Glare - -4 to attacking everyone in the party except me.

Robilar's Gambit - -4 to my own AC, but if you attack me? AoO.

You attack one of my party members? I attack you.
You try to attack me? I attack you.
You try to move from me and attack someone else? Nope, you're staying here.

So, to sum up, not including any of the other feats I have, if you even sneeze in a fight, I attack you.

At this point, your best bet is to try to eliminate me as fast as possible. So you can, you know, act freely.

Wow, AoOs. Now, how many times do you have to hit that monster to kill him dead? How far away from you can he move? How do you have both Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades up?

They can slow the enemy for a round or two, IF you optimize for tripping and Stand Still, but a wounded enemy can still easily get to the caster. You know, if the caster wasn't flying thirty feet above everybody, using Fireball against groups, Orb spells against single/high save enemies/low touch AC/enemies with SR, and Displacement to protect against any flying opponents and ranged attacks.

[herrhauptmann]

I think you mean blueshine, MIC p.9. It costs 1500 gp and you never have nightmares about rust monsters again: the armor is immune to rust and acid effects. Also you get a minor bonus on hide checks, just in case.

There's also Durable, which I believe WILL work on shields (make it animated). 500gp in Dungeonscape.


You also really want Soulfire. It's expensive, but worth it.
Soulfire gets better if you buy a lifedrinker weapon (40000+cost of mw weapon if DM allows customization). Now every hit you make drains the enemy of 2 levels or HD. And it DOESN'T drain you.
Now, I noticed the argument about how possible/impossible it is to tank via AOOs. Both opinions are valid, but if each successful AOO is draining the enemy of 2 levels or throwing on other status effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196596) then you're finally achieving the goal of killing your enemy via AOOs. (Look up Jack B Quick build)

Skip the adamant/starmetal armor. Getting DR 3/- is nice, but it doesn't stack with most sources of DR(not sure on the crystal, away from my MiC), and unless every/most enemy you run into is hitting for 1d6+5 damage, that little bit of DR is useless. Seriously, what do your enemies normally hit you for? If it's big damage, that little bit of DR MIGHT keep you above -10 long enough to soak up a cure/heal spell.

If you like the option, +1 Smoking armor spikes will actually cost about 8300 gold, and you might be able to remove them when you upgrade. (Sold separately, enchanted separately, should be able to remove them)

Greater crystal of screening will grant you a +10 to touch AC vs incorporeal enemies. You'll need the +3 armor to use it, but I think that's better than just having +1 ghost touch armor (+4 cost, will add what, 9+1 to your AC vs ghosts). But since you've got nimble and greater blurring, the price difference is much more significant.



Greater Blurring: (+8,000 GP) (20% miss chance for 10 minutes/day. (On/off at will.) (+3 bonus)

Nimble: (+2,000 GP) (ACP -2) (+1 Max Dex) (+1 bonus)

Ghost Ward (+2000 GP) (Add total enhancement bonus to Touch AC) (+1 bonus)

Total Enhancement Bonus: +5 (+50,000 GP)

And yes, Xtomjames is right, you did add up your armor costs wrong. Put together all the pluses, then calculate. Assuming I'm reading your first post correctly, you want the following:
Basic +1
Ghost ward +1
Nimble +1
Greater Blurring +3
Or +6 armor total.
Armor cost is the bonus squared. So 36000 for the basic enchantments, not 50000.
Now add in battle plate, adamant, blueshine, silent moves, etc.

I think Nimble only helps you in using your higher dex for AC purposes. It should not affect your total AOOs per turn or ranged combat.

[darkdragoon]

If AC doesn't matter, Attack Bonus doesn't Matter.


Attack can be converted to a sizable amount of extra damage, which has the synergistic effect of lowering the number of times you need to hit something to kill it.

AC has no similar trade. Heck, it has losing trades given the ones that don't apply when Dex is denied or for touch AC.

Even Combat Expertise and fighting defensively are easier to boost with Weapon Focus than say, Shield Specialization.