Xykon and Redcloak: The Team is Ending [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Morthis

2012-01-07, 02:52 PM

I have a specific prediction to make. When Xykon heads off to Girard's gate, Redcloak won't be coming along.

I could easily be wrong. But the last strip has laid out a chain of events in my mind. I may have some of it wrong, but to me, it signals a confrontation that we all know is coming, coming sooner, not later.

There are other reasons why it makes sense that Redcloak won't be coming, reasons that have to do with the larger needs of the Gerard's gate confrontation and the story in general. I'm not going to spell them out right now, I'd rather see if anyone else is thinking the way I'm thinking first.

I've been seeing the Xykon/Redcloak split coming for a while, and I know I'm not the only one. But what's different is that I now feel more sure that it's coming before, not after or at, Girard's gate.

It would make absolutely zero sense for RC to abandon Xykon now. Xykon, as cruel as he is, is still going along with the original plan. He's an incredibly powerful epic level caster able to defeat the forces of good trying to stop them (something RC is very unlikely to be able to do by himself), and he fulfills the arcane requirement for the ritual. Why would RC want to leave him now?

Meanwhile, for Xykon, RC is still his bitch pretty much. On top of that, without RC, Xykon cannot complete the ritual, so he'd need to put the cloak on another goblin, but we have no indication there are any other goblins even remotely as powerful as RC, nor as much under his control. What reason would Xykon have for betraying RC now?

Rich, I'm sorry if I'm right for spoiling something that is not at all obvious yet. Don't change it just because I'm guessing :smallredface:

There's literally hundreds of speculations on these forums, what makes you think he'd care about this one in specific?

Zevox

2012-01-07, 03:03 PM

I doubt this very much. Xykon is many things, but he's not going to tolerate Redcloak's continued existence, at this point, as anything other than his slave.

When they split up, it will result in the death (or destruction, in the case of the already-dead) of at least one of them. That will take place a great deal closer to the end of the story than we are yet.
Yeah, Kish is pretty much on the money here. Besides, they still need each other - unless Tsukiko can reconstruct the divine half of the ritual for controlling the gate for Xykon, he can't accomplish his goals without Redcloak, and Redcloak has long since made his decision to stick with Xykon until the end no matter what it costs him.

Their split won't happen until either they gain control of a gate and enact the ritual, Tsukiko reconstructs the divine half of the ritual and leaves Xykon no longer needing Redcloak, or perhaps until something unlikely and unforeseeable happens, like Redcloak growing enough of a spine to turn on Xykon in spite of what that would mean for The Plantm.

Zevox

Emulgator

2012-01-07, 03:06 PM

I think Redcloak may stay and eliminate all of the Resistance, while Xykon with some undead and/or Tsukiko are headed to the Gate, but I find that unlikely. Even more unlikely is Recloak betraying Xykon right now, at least for me. He may hide the Phylactery, but he still needs Xykon, more than Xykon needs him. Especially with Tsukiko on Xykon's side.

eras10

2012-01-07, 03:07 PM

Xykon still needs Red Cloak for the ceremony. He still needs him to control the Gate. Why would he possibly leave him behind?

Tsuikko, as a mystic theurge can cast divine magic. Xykon clearly has her in mind to replace Redcloak. Why else did he give her the ritual to study?

It would make absolutely zero sense for RC to abandon Xykon now.

True. But if Xykon has a replacement, then you're assuming Redcloak has a say in the matter. It's not Redcloak abandoning Xykon. That's only one of two ways.

What reason would Xykon have for betraying RC now?

Well, he kind of scorns, hates, and may well be suspicious of Redcloak. Does Xykon maybe get that Redcloak manipulated him into waiting around in Gobbotopia? I wouldn't rule that out.

But if that's not enough, how about an upcoming attempt by Redcloak to decieve or blackmail Xykon about the phylactery? Because I see that coming.
That's the big piece I get from the last strip.

But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon may pull the trigger anyway. It's coming, it's just a question of when, and it fits the story that Redcloak is out of action and not around when Xykon hits Girard and OOTS.

When they split up, it will result in the death (or destruction, in the case of the already-dead) of at least one of them. That will take place a great deal closer to the end of the story than we are yet.

This is the best counterargument, but do you think that Rich isn't equal to the task of finding a way for Redcloak to survive? Only to come back at a fateful moment?

I agree that when Xykon tries to kick Redcloak to the curb, it's going to be very painful. But whatever Xykon tries to do to Redcloak may not work out.

If nothing else, after all, Jirix might be high level enough for Raise Dead by now.

fergo

2012-01-07, 03:30 PM

I agree that the current trend seems to be heading in the direction of some sort of confrontation, and probably sooner rather than later. I still think, mainly for dramatic reasons, that any split will happen at the Gate. The antagonism between the two characters has been developing from the very start of the series (and is pretty much the main theme of SoD), so when a split happens, it's going to be huge; and I really don't think it can be done justice squeezed in before the climax of this story arc.

In other words, I think the split between the two would be a truly epic climax by itself, and if it happened before the very end of the book, whatever happened there would be an anticlimax (no matter how awesome it may be).

How about this: the two part ways (probably violently) at Girrard's Gate, and then would be working against each other (presuming Redcloak survives, which seems unlikely, but you never know) in the pursuit of the final gate?

And what would Xykon do to Gobbotopia if Redcloak double-crossed him? It seems clear he's petty enough to take some pretty drastic revenge on the whole city. Or might he be too busy going for the final gate?

Morthis

2012-01-07, 03:32 PM

Tsuikko, as a mystic theurge can cast divine magic. Xykon clearly has her in mind to replace Redcloak. Why else did he give her the ritual to study?

She only has half the ritual, only he bearer of the crimson mantle gets the full one and RC has no reason to give the other half. He can't even kill RC and give the cloak to Tsukiko because the dark one gives this information to the bearer of the crimson mantle, and I doubt he's going to give it to a non-goblin.

True. But if Xykon has a replacement, then you're assuming Redcloak has a say in the matter. It's not Redcloak abandoning Xykon. That's only one of two ways.

He doesn't, as long as RC holds his half of the ritual, Xykon absolutely needs him.

Well, he kind of scorns, hates, and may well be suspicious of Redcloak. Does Xykon maybe get that Redcloak manipulated him into waiting around in Gobbotopia? I wouldn't rule that out.

None of this matters. If Xykon kills RC and cannot get a new person to perform the ritual, he essentially threw away all his time spent on these gates. Because of SoD events, he has every reason to believe RC is completely under his control, so there's absolutely no purpose to killing him. He made a mistake listening to RC and staying behind in Azure City, and in all likelihood he's gonna fix that mistake by putting RC in his place again. By the end of SoD it was quite clear who the boss and who the minion was, over time this changed a little to more of a situation where they're both in it together as partners, but I think we're back to boss and minion now.

But if that's not enough, how about an upcoming attempt by Redcloak to decieve or blackmail Xykon about the phylactery? Because I see that coming.
That's the big piece I get from the last strip.

It doesn't matter one bit. Even if RC destroyed the phylactery, he stands no real chance against Xykon, and if he does destroy it, he risks permanently losing his ally should things go wrong at the next gate. Since the dark one takes direct control over things once the ritual is complete, RC doesn't even need a contingency plan for the possible betrayal, because Xykon's betrayal at that point is irrelevant. He made that perfectly clear in SoD.

But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon may pull the trigger anyway. It's coming, it's just a question of when, and it fits the story that Redcloak is out of action and not around when Xykon hits Girard and OOTS.

It doesn't matter how much it "fits the story" if it goes completely against everything you'd expect from the character.

The MunchKING

2012-01-07, 03:49 PM

But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon may pull the trigger anyway. It's coming, it's just a question of when, and it fits the story that Redcloak is out of action and not around when Xykon hits Girard and OOTS.

Why?? I mean why then??

Zevox

2012-01-07, 03:58 PM

Well, he kind of scorns, hates, and may well be suspicious of Redcloak. Does Xykon maybe get that Redcloak manipulated him into waiting around in Gobbotopia? I wouldn't rule that out.
Even so, he still needs him. As long as Redcloak has the divine half of the ritual and Xykon doesn't, he can't turn on him no matter what he thinks of him.

But if that's not enough, how about an upcoming attempt by Redcloak to decieve or blackmail Xykon about the phylactery? Because I see that coming.
That's the big piece I get from the last strip.
I'm assuming that you haven't read Start of Darkness, then. Because if you had, you'd never think that was going to happen.

But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon may pull the trigger anyway. It's coming, it's just a question of when, and it fits the story that Redcloak is out of action and not around when Xykon hits Girard and OOTS.
Why? I see no reason why that fits the story or makes any sense.

Zevox

eras10

2012-01-07, 04:31 PM

As long as Redcloak has the divine half of the ritual and Xykon doesn't, he can't turn on him no matter what he thinks of him.

She only has half the ritual, only he bearer of the crimson mantle gets the full one and RC has no reason to give the other half.

There's an appropriate quote here - "It's like she has that Monk feat that lets you jump as far as you want, only it applies to conclusions".

What makes any of you think that Xykon only has access to one half of the ritual and not all of it? I dare you to find any citation, comic strip, or quote to that effect.

Specifically to the second guy, you're leaping to the conclusion that because the Dark One gave the ritual to his high priest originally, that no one else could ever learn it? Because why exactly? You think Redcloak never wrote it down? Really?

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? You must be kidding me.

I'm assuming that you haven't read Start of Darkness, then. Because if you had, you'd never think that was going to happen.

I have read it. And I do. You're taking the words said by Xykon at the end of that book far too literally. We all agree that Redcloak needs Xykon. But we all agree that Redcloak is not above decieving, manipulating, and/or trying to control Xkyon, as is demonstrated not only in that book but, for Pete's sake, a few hundred strips ago.

One more such event would be a well timed proverbial final straw.

Why? I see no reason why that fits the story or makes any sense.

Several reasons.

First, frankly, Xykon is a lot easier to plausibly kill without a very powerful second spellcaster around to give him nearly unlimited healing. For one thing. First of all. Tsuikko is a lot easier to kill than Redcloak. Without Redcloak, Super-V might have beaten Xykon. It makes a difference.

Second of all, if Redcloak is there for the final battle, and carrying Xykon's phylactery around his neck again, what's the flimsy excuse for not finishing Xykon off for good at Gate Four? Last time, OOTS was ignorant and somehow didn't realize Xykon would regenerate, and didn't know it was around Redcloak's neck anyway. This time they do.

If you think Uncle Xykon is intended to be around for Gate Five - and personally I do - then his phylactery shouldn't be there for OOTS to pulverize. Maybe Redcloak is about to hide it somewhere attempt to establish leverage against Xykon. Maybe Xykon is about to forcefully take it off Redcloak and hide it somewhere himself. But it shouldn't be left somewhere in "Xkyon's super-secret hidey-hole".

I don't see either it or Redcloak going to Girard's gate. For a while, like the guy above, I saw the split coming at the Gate itself instead of before they leave. And that's still possible. On the other hand, Xykon is due for an ambush right about exactly when he gains control, so the whole phylactery being offsite thing is harder.

The split at the gate itself is possible. I dunno what to tell you. As I said in another thread, I see the fact that Redcloak is about to take the phylactery all by himself - no Tsuikko, no Xykon, no hobgoblins, as deeply portentous. I see it as signaling further serious conflict in the very near future, and not with the soon to be mopped up Resistance.

Maybe the Resistance will succeed in escaping with it, Xykon will find out, and *that* will be the final straw. I don't claim to know everything. But this is what I intuit. It's coming soon.

I don't think it's going to be an epic battle. More like a sudden betrayal.

eras10

2012-01-07, 04:37 PM

RC doesn't even need a contingency plan for the possible betrayal, because Xykon's betrayal at that point is irrelevant.

Redcloak has a variety of reasons to want to try to get more leverage against Xykon right now. Maybe he knows that Xykon has it in mind to replace him. Probably he doesn't. Meanwhile, there's also Gobbotopia. And his general sense that his relationship with Xykon is badly frayed.

Having said that, I'm not sure that Redcloak is about to move to force a confrontation with Xykon. I think, like I said, that Xykon is headed towards a confrontation with Redcloak. I think the next 10 strips or so might possibly be about setting that up, but they also might be about instigating it right now.

eras10

2012-01-07, 04:49 PM

Okay, I'll make a semi-apology.

I still say we don't know which half of the ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko. It could have been the divine half. It could all be written down, and Xykon could have Tsuikko's half.

On the other hand, maybe Xykon did give her his own half, trusting in her crush on Xykon and non-lawful nature to keep their relationship intact.

So maybe the big upcoming surprise with Curbstomp-Redcloak-Gravy is that Tsuikko has already reconstructed Redcloak's half. That's a good idea, Zevox, and it does fit what Tsuikko was doing (and the need for her to do it) better than my thought that it's the divine half.

Or maybe she's just sure she can do it, and Xykon rolls the dice. He's a dice-roller.

Math_Mage

2012-01-07, 04:51 PM

I think there's a lot of room for this split to happen before Girard's Gate without it happening right now. But I also think that it's more dramatically appropriate for this to be groundwork laid against a confrontation at the Gate itself, when Xykon decides to use Tsukiko instead of Redcloak.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-07, 04:51 PM

Tsukiko flat-out said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) she thinks the other half is divine. Thus, she has the arcane half.

Peelee

2012-01-07, 04:56 PM

There's an appropriate quote here - "It's like she has that Monk feat that lets you jump as far as you want, only it applies to conclusions".

What makes any of you think that Xykon only has access to one half of the ritual and not all of it? I dare you to find any citation, comic strip, or quote to that effect.

So it's a better assumption that Redcloak has told the entire ritual, the only reason Xykon needs him alive instead of any other divine spellcaster, to the incredibly dangerous, highly unstable, murder-happy killball of a lich he hangs out with? Find any citation, comic strip, or quote that says Redcloak HAS told Xykon the whole ritual. Barring that, both are assumptions, and teh assumption that Redcloak told Xykon the entire ritual makes no sense from Redcloak's perspective.

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? You must be kidding me.

Tsukiko could easily not be a high-enough caster to be able to complete the ritual on her own, and even if she was, she is both enamored by Xykon and no match for him in a battle. Xykon, however, can be lazy at times, and could easily be working on other things, so gives her his half of the ritual to work on so he can just show up and perform the thing without having to do any of the work understanding/decoding/whatevering it.

Second of all, if Redcloak is there for the final battle, and carrying Xykon's phylactery around his neck again, what's the flimsy excuse for not finishing Xykon off for good at Gate Four? Last time, OOTS was ignorant and somehow didn't realize Xykon would regenerate, and didn't know it was around Redcloak's neck anyway. This time they do.

Lot of "ifs" there. Redcloak won't necessarily be carrying the phylactery around his neck at the end. We don't even know for certain he knows the team with the phylactery has re-entered the base (I believe he doesn't at all, Also, he could easily be losing, not caring since he would regen, and suddenly become aware that his phylactery is destroyed, meaning if he dies, he dies for good, and teleports out. I mean, if we're throwing out any hypothetical that strikes us here, there's a perfectly fine reason for him to lose out on the next gate Making tons of assumptions, of course.

If you think Uncle Xykon is intended to be around for Gate Five - and personally I do - then his phylactery shouldn't be there for OOTS to pulverize.

The Order doesn't have to be the ones to pulverize it. Several other characters (Thahn, O-Chul, Malak, Tarquin, etc.) have shown themselves to be quite capable of holding their own, and could very well be the ones to destroy it. Which could potentially happen at any time - see above.

I don't see either it or Redcloak going to Girard's gate. For a while, like the guy above, I saw the split coming at the Gate itself instead of before they leave. And that's still possible. On the other hand, Xykon is due for an ambush right about exactly when he gains control, so the whole phylactery being offsite thing is harder.

The split at the gate itself is possible. I dunno what to tell you. As I said in another thread, I see the fact that Redcloak is about to take the phylactery all by himself - no Tsuikko, no Xykon, no hobgoblins, as deeply portentous. I see it as signaling further serious conflict in the very near future, and not with the soon to be mopped up Resistance.

Maybe the Resistance will succeed in escaping with it, Xykon will find out, and *that* will be the final straw. I don't claim to know everything. But this is what I intuit. It's coming soon.

I don't think it's going to be an epic battle. More like a sudden betrayal.

Who's to say there will be a final straw?

Morthis

2012-01-07, 05:01 PM

There's an appropriate quote here - "It's like she has that Monk feat that lets you jump as far as you want, only it applies to conclusions".

What makes any of you think that Xykon only has access to one half of the ritual and not all of it? I dare you to find any citation, comic strip, or quote to that effect.

Tsukiko quite clearly has only half of the ritual. Even if we ignore that for a moment, it's common sense. Redcloak is smart, and he does not trust Xykon very much, which has been made clear in a dozen strips or something. Why on earth would he give Xykon the other half of the ritual? Xykon does not need that half, and the only purpose giving him the other half could possibly serve is allowing someone else to perform the divine part, other than Redcloak. Now you tell me it's logical to assume that Redcloak gave him the divine half? Maybe you should apply the Miko quote to yourself.

Specifically to the second guy, you're leaping to the conclusion that because the Dark One gave the ritual to his high priest originally, that no one else could ever learn it? Because why exactly? You think Redcloak never wrote it down? Really?

The mantle quite literally imbues him with the knowledge of the ritual, why on earth would he write it down? You're just trying to come up with excuses to put it in Xykon's hand when the smart and logical thing to do is to keep it away from him. The burden of proof for this is on you, because from everything we know about Redcloak and his relation with Xykon, everything suggests he would keep half the ritual for himself rather than blindly trusting Xykon with the whole thing.

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? You must be kidding me.

Yeah this kind of reaction is sort of what I had when you thought Redcloak would, for no reason other than the argument you want to make, would give the divine half of the ritual away. It's perfectly logical for Tsukiko to study the arcane half of the ritual, she actually understands both divine and arcane spells, Xykon only understands arcane spells. Since the other half of the ritual is divine, it makes sense that someone who actually understands divine spells might be able to better understand what the outcome of the ritual would be.

First, frankly, Xykon is a lot easier to plausibly kill without a very powerful second spellcaster around to give him nearly unlimited healing. For one thing. First of all. Tsuikko is a lot easier to kill than Redcloak. Without Redcloak, Super-V might have beaten Xykon. It makes a difference.

This has nothing to do with the characters at all. None of us can, with any certainty, say how the story will develop, so all we have to go on is things we do know something about. What we do know is the personalities of RC and Xykon, and based on those, your speculation makes no sense. You try to say your speculation must be true because it could fit the story, but you can't provide the slightest bit of proof the story will unwind the way you think it will.

Second of all, if Redcloak is there for the final battle, and carrying Xykon's phylactery around his neck again, what's the flimsy excuse for not finishing Xykon off for good at Gate Four? Last time, OOTS was ignorant and somehow didn't realize Xykon would regenerate, and didn't know it was around Redcloak's neck anyway. This time they do.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You assume the story will go a certain way, and then must find explanations for that, so you give us explanations, even if they fly completely against everything we know about the character.

Why must there be a battle at the third gate, especially one only between the oots and Xykon (in which they'd be hopelessly outmatched with or without RC). If there is a battle, why must RC not be present, considering Xykon can defeat the order either way. Why would Xykon let RC carry the phylactery around his neck any further, after all that happened? Etc.

eras10

2012-01-07, 05:03 PM

Gift Jeraff, you got me. Good find. My bad.

The whole idea/theme still works though, as Tsuikko can quite possibly reconstruct the divine half herself, and that is quite likely the entire reason Xykon gave it to her.

The only question left is whether she's already finished doing it.

Let's put it this way - it doesn't seem impossible to me that she has.

But I also think that it's more dramatically appropriate for this to be groundwork laid against a confrontation at the Gate itself, when Xykon decides to use Tsukiko instead of Redcloak.

You think that the phylactery will be there too, then? But somehow survive?
Or you think that Redcloak is about to recover the phylactery, and then Xykon is about to take it away from him, and Redcloak is just going to let him? Or, like, they'll have a peaceful discussion about it and mutually agree to hide it somewhere?

I mean, it's possible. It's definitely possible. I've got my hunch, and the weird way this confrontation is working out in #825 is what really pushed me over the edge.

Also, if they Red and Xykon are about to have their final confrontation right at the Gate, and then OOTS attack, doesn't that give them a strong incentive to patch it up for a minute? Thus not weakening Xykon for the semifinal assault.

I think it's messy to have the Redcloak / Xykon confrontation, the OOTS ambush, and the Linear Guild counter-ambush (And the IFCC counter-counter-ambush?) all stacked on top of Girard's gate. I don't know that Rich will agree, and maybe this is just my opinion.

BaronOfHell

2012-01-07, 05:06 PM

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am only speaking out of memory here. However is it not so that from RC perspective, he accomplishes his goal no matter what, as long as the ritual is carried out, independent of RC actually taking part of said ritual? After all, is the whole point of the ritual not to give the Dark One the ability to release the Snarl, so it can unmake everything and as such, the world can be rebuild with goblins as a species equal with humans, elves, dwarfs, etc.?

As such, I always imagined that Xykon gave Tsukiko(?) his half, not because he wanted to replace RC for the ritual (I imagine he'd remove RC when he achieved his own expected goal of controlling the gate, and thereby being able to rule the world through the threat of the snarl), but because he is smart enough not to take RC's words for some kind of unquestionable truth and as such he wants tsukiko to reveal if the ritual actually does what he think it does.

Further more, my guess is that Tsukiko is in for some big emotional betrayal long before RC. Though I fully expect her to at that time be so well developed that she won't leave the impression that she solely existed to show how cruel Xykon is.

Regarding RC's appearance in the Resistance's headquarters, I think it is much too early to know with any certainty what RC is up to. Though I personally can't see why he'd ever need to betray Xykon as long as Xykon's own goal is to perform the ritual. I mean isn't that RC's ultimate goal and does it even matter if RC then is part of said ritual when it's the ultimate conclusion and not the participants of said process that's the plan?

Math_Mage

2012-01-07, 05:07 PM

You think that the phylactery will be there too, then? But somehow survive?
Or you think that Redcloak is about to recover the phylactery, and then Xykon is about to take it away from him, and Redcloak is just going to let him? Or, like, they'll have a peaceful discussion about it and mutually agree to hide it somewhere?

I think that Redcloak is going to create a deception now that will come back to bite him in the butt 150 or so strips later. After all, isn't that what happened last time?

Morthis

2012-01-07, 05:12 PM

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am only speaking out of memory here. However is it not so that from RC perspective, he accomplishes his goal no matter what, as long as the ritual is carried out, independent of RC actually taking part of said ritual? After all, is the whole point of the ritual not to give the Dark One the ability to release the Snarl, so it can unmake everything and as such, the world can be rebuild with goblins as a species equal with humans, elves, dwarfs, etc.?

The original plan is to use the snarl as leverage. The Dark One would have control over where the gates appear, so he can make them appear next to the other gods and force them to go along with his goal. If this failed, and somehow the gates were destroyed and the snarl was freed, then the backup plan is that when the world is recreated, the dark one will be involved with it from the start.

No matter the outcome, Redcloak does not need to survive, or defeat Xykon, for him to accomplish his goal.

As such, I always imagined that Xykon gave Tsukiko(?) his half, not because he wanted to replace RC for the ritual (I imagine he'd remove RC when he achieved his own expected goal of controlling the gate, and thereby being able to rule the world through the threat of the snarl), but because he is smart enough not to take RC's words for some kind of unquestionable truth and as such he wants tsukiko to reveal if the ritual actually does what he think it does.

Exactly. When Xykon first got into this, he trusted Redcloak. Now that they've been together this long, he probably has some doubts and wants to find out what the ritual actually does, since all information he has about it comes from Redcloak.

eras10

2012-01-07, 05:14 PM

Now you tell me it's logical to assume that Redcloak gave him the divine half? Maybe you should apply the Miko quote to yourself.

So Gift Jeraff has demonstrated that Tsuikko has the arcane half, so this is now moot. However, the "Tsuikko is/has already reconstructed the divine half of the ritual from the arcane half" gambit is very much up for grabs.

everything suggests he would keep half the ritual for himself rather than blindly trusting Xykon with the whole thing.

That's fair, but see the "Tsuikko is reverse-engineering the other half argument" above.

Especially one only between the oots and Xykon (in which they'd be hopelessly outmatched with or without RC). If there is a battle, why must RC not be present, considering Xykon can defeat the order either way. Why would Xykon let RC carry the phylactery around his neck any further, after all that happened? Etc.

I'm pretty sure that Xykon's plan is to go to Girard's Gate, kill anyone between him and the Gate, and enact the ritual. I don't see him changing that plan before getting to the Gate. And OOTS is also at the gate, so a fight between Xykon and OOTS is quite likely. Not a guarantee, but the most likely outcome.

Anyway, Xykon is headed to the gate, but nobody thinks he's going to actually get the gate, enact the ritual, Game Over, Bad Guys Win.

So somebody's going to nail him, and whoever it is, is probably not going to be stupid enough to fail to destroy the phylactery this time. Given all the trouble Xykon has had with it, I personally expect that Xykon doesn't want it coming to the Gate. This is, in my opinion, very likely to involve a serious confrontation with Redcloak.

Before the gate.

eras10

2012-01-07, 05:18 PM

Exactly. When Xykon first got into this, he trusted Redcloak. Now that they've been together this long, he probably has some doubts and wants to find out what the ritual actually does, since all information he has about it comes from Redcloak.

The line between "finding out that the ritual gives the Dark One control of the world instead of Xykon" and "having Tsuikko learn to do the ritual instead of Redcloak so Xykon can kill Redcloak and have him replaced" is a thin line. I'm not sure it matters much, either.

I actually don't expect Xykon to find out what the ritual is really for, because he would learn that his whole plan is more or less pointless except to give control of the Snarl to a God Xykon doesn't follow. There is then no reason for Xykon to be interested in the plan any longer. Thus Xykon's role in the story is over, no longer taking over the world, etc.

Morthis

2012-01-07, 05:23 PM

So Gift Jeraff has demonstrated that Tsuikko has the arcane half, so this is now moot. However, the "Tsuikko is/has already reconstructed the divine half of the ritual from the arcane half" gambit is very much up for grabs.

This is almost impossible to judge, but since the ritual that originally bound the gates was epic magic, I would imagine this is a pretty complex ritual. Tsukiko didn't have a high enough spellcraft to even figure out the ritual was two parts, so I have my doubts she has enough spellcraft to reconstruct it (which would likely be a much higher DC than simply understanding it). Even if she does, it'd likely take quite a while.

Math_Mage

2012-01-07, 05:31 PM

So Gift Jeraff has demonstrated that Tsuikko has the arcane half, so this is now moot. However, the "Tsuikko is/has already reconstructed the divine half of the ritual from the arcane half" gambit is very much up for grabs.

It's possible but extremely unlikely. She simply hasn't demonstrated the skill or knowledge necessary to do so.

eras10

2012-01-07, 05:34 PM

It's possible but extremely unlikely. She simply hasn't demonstrated the skill or knowledge necessary to do so.

Anyone who thinks there's a Team Evil split in the works at all, Tssuiko is the mechanism. If you think she can't learn the ritual itself, you're thinking the fraying partnership will hold all the way through. I'm not in that camp.

Thread consensus is running against my belief that the split is imminent, though. We will see.

Zevox

2012-01-07, 05:35 PM

There's an appropriate quote here - "It's like she has that Monk feat that lets you jump as far as you want, only it applies to conclusions".

What makes any of you think that Xykon only has access to one half of the ritual and not all of it? I dare you to find any citation, comic strip, or quote to that effect.
Redcloak isn't stupid enough to give Xykon the only thing that makes him valuable to him at all. Xykon would have dumped him by now if he had been.

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? You must be kidding me.
Of course not. Redcloak gave Xykon the arcane half of the ritual because it's the half he'll be performing. Granted it would have been smarter not to give any part of the ritual to him at all until they were ready to perform it, but perhaps he did it when they had Dorukon's Gate and were expecting to perform the ritual as soon as they cracked his wards.

As for Tsukiko, Xykon's not teaching it to her, he's having her examine it, likely in the hopes of having her reverse-engineer the rest so that he no longer needs Redcloak. Since unlike him, she's also a divine caster, and thus could perhaps actually figure that out. Or alternatively he's suspicious of whether the ritual actually does what Redcloak claims it does - which of course it doesn't - and figures that Tsukiko's understanding of divine magic might help her figure out what the full ritual does even though she only has half of it.

I have read it. And I do.
Then you must be forgetting something very important: Redcloak already tried that, at the diner after Xykon had just become a Lich. It didn't go well, and nothing has changed that would make it go any better if he tried it a second time. So Redcloak himself knows that it would be a waste of his time, and thus of course it won't happen.

First, frankly, Xykon is a lot easier to plausibly kill without a very powerful second spellcaster around to give him nearly unlimited healing. For one thing. First of all. Tsuikko is a lot easier to kill than Redcloak. Without Redcloak, Super-V might have beaten Xykon. It makes a difference.
...and you actually think that Xykon will be killed at Girard's Gate? Why? He's the main antagonist, and we've still got one more Gate to go, plus the mystery of the world in the rift. He's not going to die this much before the finale of the story.

Second of all, if Redcloak is there for the final battle, and carrying Xykon's phylactery around his neck again, what's the flimsy excuse for not finishing Xykon off for good at Gate Four? Last time, OOTS was ignorant and somehow didn't realize Xykon would regenerate, and didn't know it was around Redcloak's neck anyway. This time they do.
Because they won't kill Xykon at this gate of course. The only reason they managed it at Dorukon's was because of what even the Giant admits was a deus-ex-machina when Roy was able to throw Xykon into Dorukon's wards. Most likely something will happen to result in the destruction of Girard's Gate and send us to a climax - or perhaps faked climax, if the world within the rift comes into play afterwards - at Kraagor's Gate.

If you think Uncle Xykon is intended to be around for Gate Five - and personally I do - then his phylactery shouldn't be there for OOTS to pulverize.
Yeah, his phylactery being at that confrontation doesn't automatically mean that the Order gets to pulverize it. Even in the unlikely event that they manage to destroy Xykon's body there, Redcloak can always escape, for instance in the same way he did when O-Chul got loose - Word of Recall.

Or things could go the opposite route - the Order does manage to acquire and destroy the phylactery, but not destroy Xykon's body.

As I said in another thread, I see the fact that Redcloak is about to take the phylactery all by himself - no Tsuikko, no Xykon, no hobgoblins, as deeply portentous. I see it as signaling further serious conflict in the very near future, and not with the soon to be mopped up Resistance.
I can't say I see that at all. On the contrary, it seems rather that it's an example of that quote you made earlier about jumping to conclusions.

Zevox

BaronOfHell

2012-01-07, 05:41 PM

The line between "finding out that the ritual gives the Dark One control of the world instead of Xykon" and "having Tsuikko learn to do the ritual instead of Redcloak so Xykon can kill Redcloak and have him replaced" is a thin line. I'm not sure it matters much, either.

I think it matters a lot, because unless Xykon finds out what the ritual really does, I have a really hard time of making sense of RC betraying Xykon. Which I believe is half the point of this thread. Heck it would make more sense for RC to sacrifice himself to save Xykon, as long as he's convinced Xykon is seeking to perform the ritual, because RC probably knows he's easier to replace than Xykon is.
In the first quote, Xykon finds exactly out about what the ritual does, in the second quote, I imagine he still performs the ritual, just replaces RC at which point from RC's perspective, it doesn't really matter anyway, he's accomplished the plan.

Anyway. Taking into account the beatings team evil have taken during those very interesting encounters for the gates so far, I would be very very surprised if Xykon does not bring his strongest forces he can get with him, without having to use too much time on transportation, to Girard's Gate. As such, if he's going to replace RC, I find it highly unlikely that he'd do so before getting to a point where the ritual can be cast, and only if he can actually replace RC's part in said ritual, he'd replace RC before the ritual is performed, but not before the gate is secured.

As such, I think the only way for the betrayal from either side to happen, unless some kind of big cliche misunderstanding happens, is for Tsukiko to actually find out what the ritual is for, which you've nicely argumented for why is unlikely.

eras10

2012-01-07, 05:56 PM

think it matters a lot, because unless Xykon finds out what the ritual really does, I have a really hard time of making sense of RC betraying Xykon.

Not RC betraying Xykon. Xykon betraying RC.

I imagine he still performs the ritual, just replaces RC at which point from RC's perspective, it doesn't really matter anyway, he's accomplished the plan.

I don't think Redcloak wants to die before seeing his plan completed. I don't think Redcloak wants someone else to be doing it instead of him. I think it matters. If nothing else, only with Redcloak being there to do it himself is the only way he can make sure to the best of his ability that it is done, and done right. Anything less is just a hope for the best. That's not how you commit to a crazy plan.

...and you actually think that Xykon will be killed at Girard's Gate? Why? He's the main antagonist, and we've still got one more Gate to go, plus the mystery of the world in the rift. He's not going to die this much before the finale of the story.

I'm not sure what's going to happen at Girard's Gate, but I think it's entirely possible that Xykon's body will be destroyed. but I'm not sure. Maybe not, but I wouldn't rule out OOTS in an OOTS vs. Xykon fight. Maybe I should, but I don't.

That's not my prediction. There's a lot of forces working around that Gate, so I have no confidence how that will work out. Except I don't think Redcloak will be be there. I could be wrong about that too, but that's the only prediction I made. Not 100% sure about that either, but predictions are fun.

Then you must be forgetting something very important:

First off - dude, spoiler that. You're too specific.

Second, as I said in another thread.. well, several things. Ultimately, RC backed down last time. On the other hand, so did Xykon, as far as not killing RC. Nevertheless, RC kept control of the phylactery on his person. That establishes a degree of leverage.

It also makes Xykon - as they both found out in War and XPs - vulnerable once people know that the phylactery is around the goblin's neck and Xykon and his phylactery are in the same place.

And O-Chul knows. And he escaped.

I don't think Xykon wants the phylactery coming with him to Girard. And I don't think Redcloak is going to let it be taken from him.

There are a lot of pieces in place for this.

BaronOfHell

2012-01-07, 06:12 PM

Not RC betraying Xykon. Xykon betraying RC.
In your quoted part I tried to address why RC would not betray Xykon. In later parts of the post, which you're quoting parts of, I try to address why Xykon would not betray RC, or at least not before "much later on".

You're of course right it does not make much sense for RC to die and I also doubt he'd accept dying unless he thinks it's the better alternative. Which is also what I tried to argument for, that when it comes down to it, it might actually be the smartest thing to let happen, but again, it depends a lot on the circumstances.

And of course you might be right and team Evil will weaken themselves, only time will tell. However, if I may say, I just think it's way way to early to try to draw these conclusion. I mean, it's based mostly on a single strip, isn't it? Further more, a strip that came unexpected to most of us, I would guess. In other words, we don't really have any info on the background of these events, i.e. RC's apparantly lone presence. All we can do is guess at this point and I think it's going a bit too far to use these guesses to jump to conclusions. Therefore, as I see it, the order of uncertainty is even higher than what the usual theories on these boards are based on. since the usual theories are based on in comic observations (like what is the planet in the rift, what is meant by Elan's happy ending, what's roy archon supposed to do, etc.) and not guesswork based of in comic observations.
If RC goes to the length to say that his intentions are actually to use the phylactery as some kind of bargain (though I am still not convinced he'd need such a thing, it'd only go to show how little I know), I'd give you theory full credit on the same level as many other theories on these boards, which may be right, may be wrong, only time will tell.

Thanks for a pleasent discussion.:)

Morthis

2012-01-07, 06:26 PM

I don't think Xykon wants the phylactery coming with him to Girard. And I don't think Redcloak is going to let it be taken from him.

Why not? He originally made it his holy symbol for the sake of having leverage, but it's already been made clear in SoD that it hasn't really helped at all anyway. Why would it suddenly give him leverage when it certainly hasn't in the past. For that matter, why would he care? It's been said a million times already, Redcloak does not need to betray Xykon. If everything goes as planned, and Xykon performs the ritual, Redcloak won.

Math_Mage

2012-01-07, 06:31 PM

Anyone who thinks there's a Team Evil split in the works at all, Tssuiko is the mechanism. If you think she can't learn the ritual itself, you're thinking the fraying partnership will hold all the way through. I'm not in that camp.

Thread consensus is running against my belief that the split is imminent, though. We will see.

I don't think she can reverse-engineer the divine half of the ritual. I do think she can find out something about the purpose of the ritual, and I do think that she can read the divine half of the ritual when Xykon eventually takes it from Redcloak's cold dead body.

SoC175

2012-01-07, 06:48 PM

What makes any of you think that Xykon only has access to one half of the ritual and not all of it? I dare you to find any citation, comic strip, or quote to that effect. Why would he give away the half that Xykon doesn't need?

You think Redcloak never wrote it down? Really? Why would he ever need to write it down? It's whispered in his ear directly by his deity when he needs it.

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? Of course the arcane half, as there is no reason that Xykon knows the divine half.

And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? No, as a sorcerer who doesn't really understand the theoretics of magic he has a wizard who does check it to see if it could actually do what Redcloak promises. Or maybe because she can do both, he hopes that if she shes the arcane half she can research how to fill the divine holes

You must be kidding me. You are assuming that Redcloak teached Xykon the half of the ritual that Xykon doesn't know just because? Are you kiddin?

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am only speaking out of memory here. However is it not so that from RC perspective, he accomplishes his goal no matter what, as long as the ritual is carried out, independent of RC actually taking part of said ritual? After all, is the whole point of the ritual not to give the Dark One the ability to release the Snarl, so it can unmake everything and as such, the world can be rebuild with goblins as a species equal with humans, elves, dwarfs, etc.? There is the danger that it would never be carried out without him. If Xykon and Tsuiko had the complete ritual among them, they would realize what the ritual actually does and have no more reason to cast it

eras10

2012-01-07, 06:54 PM

If RC goes to the length to say that his intentions are actually to use the phylactery as some kind of bargain

There's a good argument that he won't. There's a good argument that he might. For the record, my take is that this is only one way in which a Xykon/Redcloak confrontation could happen before Team Evil leaves for the gate.

It does seem like something is coming from the Redcloak-by-himself observation, another twist, and not a good one for Team Evil. I don't think Redcloak is going to crush the Elves, take the phylactery, say "hey, problem solved" to Xykon, put it back around his neck, and then they're all going to teleport off.

Some of those things might happen, but not all of them.

Another possibility is that Xykon forces the confrontation without any provocation from Redcloak at all.

Zevox

2012-01-07, 07:19 PM

First off - dude, spoiler that. You're too specific.
Fair enough. Done.

Second, as I said in another thread.. well, several things. Ultimately, RC backed down last time. On the other hand, so did Xykon, as far as not killing RC. Nevertheless, RC kept control of the phylactery on his person. That establishes a degree of leverage.
You're forgetting why that happened though.
Xykon was going to kill Redcloak and Right-Eye, until Redcloak pointed out that he needed him for the ritual. He knows it, Xykon doesn't. That's why I emphasized that the one thing that could cause Xykon to turn on Redcloak is getting the full ritual. It's the only leverage Redcloak has on him, and they both know it because of that incident. The phylactery doesn't matter unless Xykon's body gets destroyed, so, as he demonstrated in that incident, it can't be used as leverage against him.

It also makes Xykon - as they both found out in War and XPs - vulnerable once people know that the phylactery is around the goblin's neck and Xykon and his phylactery are in the same place.

And O-Chul knows. And he escaped.

I don't think Xykon wants the phylactery coming with him to Girard. And I don't think Redcloak is going to let it be taken from him.

There are a lot of pieces in place for this.
I think you're simultaneously underestimating Xykon's arrogance, and overestimate Redcloak's spine. Xykon most likely will be perfectly fine with the phylactery coming with them, because he's too arrogant to contemplate his own defeat. And even if he were, Redcloak would simply leave the phylactery wherever Xykon told him to, because he needs Xykon and lacks the spine to defy him, especially because that would mean admitting that everything he's gone through as Xykon's lackey was for nothing. That last most especially has not changed in the least, and it needs to for Redcloak to ever stand up to Xykon.

Zevox

The MunchKING

2012-01-07, 07:50 PM

Of course the arcane half, as there is no reason that Xykon knows the divine half.
No, as a sorcerer who doesn't really understand the theoretics of magic he has a wizard who does check it to see if it could actually do what Redcloak promises. Or maybe because she can do both, he hopes that if she shes the arcane half she can research how to fill the divine holes

He didn't even know it was half a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html), much less that it was divine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).

eras10

2012-01-07, 09:05 PM

Redcloak would simply leave the phylactery wherever Xykon told him to, because he needs Xykon and lacks the spine to defy him, especially because that would mean admitting that everything he's gone through as Xykon's lackey was for nothing. That last most especially has not changed in the least

This is a decent psychological argument. I don't think it's foolproof. Redcloak defied Xykon in a way by stalling him for months while Redcloak helped found Gobbotopia, and lying to him that there was still a chance of getting information from O-Chul. That's defiance.

There are degrees of defiance, but while Redcloak was cowed at the end of SoD, people do change. Redcloak thinks Xykon needs him, so he may think he can get away with certain shenanigans.

Or maybe Redcloak plans another deception. Or, it's possible, neither of those things. I don't think the "Redcloak is about to mess with Xykon" argument is foolproof.

But that's only one of the ways a confrontation is forced very soon.

The others are:

#1. Redcloak screws up this phylactery retrieval and Xykon just decides to replace him.

#2. There's a confrontation when Xykon decides Redcloak can't be the keeper of the phylactery anymore, or

#3, Xykon decides to kill him (or try, or imprison him, or something) just because of the possibility of a confrontation in the future due to the bad vibes here, or just because he's decided Redcloak is replacable now.

skaddix

2012-01-07, 09:23 PM

This is a decent psychological argument. I don't think it's foolproof. Redcloak defied Xykon in a way by stalling him for months while Redcloak helped found Gobbotopia, and lying to him that there was still a chance of getting information from O-Chul. That's defiance.

There are degrees of defiance, but while Redcloak was cowed at the end of SoD, people do change. Redcloak thinks Xykon needs him, so he may think he can get away with certain shenanigans.

Or maybe Redcloak plans another deception. Or, it's possible, neither of those things. I don't think the "Redcloak is about to mess with Xykon" argument is foolproof.

But that's only one of the ways a confrontation is forced very soon.

The others are:

#1. Redcloak screws up this phylactery retrieval and Xykon just decides to replace him.

#2. There's a confrontation when Xykon decides Redcloak can't be the keeper of the phylactery anymore, or

#3, Xykon decides to kill him (or try, or imprison him, or something) just because of the possibility of a confrontation in the future due to the bad vibes here, or just because he's decided Redcloak is replacable now.

True but those acts were under a viable cover. They only worked because Soon and His Ghost Army almost killed both of them which allowed RC to make the case for more research.

skaddix

2012-01-07, 09:27 PM

Triple Post

skaddix

2012-01-07, 09:32 PM

Triple Post.

Zevox

2012-01-07, 09:55 PM

But that's only one of the ways a confrontation is forced very soon.

The others are:

#1. Redcloak screws up this phylactery retrieval and Xykon just decides to replace him.

#2. There's a confrontation when Xykon decides Redcloak can't be the keeper of the phylactery anymore, or

#3, Xykon decides to kill him (or try, or imprison him, or something) just because of the possibility of a confrontation in the future due to the bad vibes here, or just because he's decided Redcloak is replacable now.
But Xykon can't do 1 or 3, because Redcloak isn't replacable. Again, he knows the ritual, Xykon does not. Xykon needs the ritual, therefore he needs Redcloak. Redcloak needs Xykon to perform the ritual, therefore he needs to put up with him. Until that dynamic changes, this can't happen.

And as I already said, as far as #2 goes, that would simply end with Redcloak acquiescing to Xykon's wishes, due to the above.

Zevox

Morthis

2012-01-07, 10:53 PM

This is a decent psychological argument. I don't think it's foolproof. Redcloak defied Xykon in a way by stalling him for months while Redcloak helped found Gobbotopia, and lying to him that there was still a chance of getting information from O-Chul. That's defiance.

No, it's deception, which is vastly different. Defiance means he has to make a stand, he has to tell Xykon no more, I'm not taking it anymore, and then suffer the consequences of this decision. With the deception he did, all he has to do is bend the truth a little, there's no confrontation at all. After V and O'Chull escape, that's when Xykon confronts him about lingering in Azure City, and shocker, RC gives in again, he does not regenerate his eye. You're telling me the guy who's not even willing to regenerate his own eye because he's told not to, is suddenly going to grow enough of a spine to do something that is pretty much guaranteed to get him killed and soul bound? At least with the eye if RC really showed enough balls, Xykon might be impressed and let it slide. If he damages or destroys the phylactery, he's as good as dead.

thereaper

2012-01-08, 12:27 AM

There's one huge issue with this hypothesis.

In order for RC to betray Xykon in any meaningful way, it would require him to admit to himself that killing Right-Eye was wrong. That all the sacrifices he has made up to this point were a mistake. RC will never be able to do that.

Math_Mage

2012-01-08, 01:32 AM

thereaper

2012-01-08, 02:25 AM

snikrept

2012-01-08, 02:36 AM

Assuming Redcloak has outed the Resistance spy in the citadel on his own, I could see Redcloak just keeping the amulet and Xykon is none the wiser. Gives him some measure of control back. However the team isn't going to launch at the next gate unless the amulet is found, so he'd have to come up with some sort of replacement...

Ninja Dragon

2012-01-08, 07:03 AM

You guys didn't consider one thing:

What the ritual does is not to make the Dark One conquer the world.

What the ritual does is enable you to teleport the Snarl to anywhere you want, including the plane where the gods are.

Redcloak wants to do this so the Dark one can blackmail the gods into making a better world for the goblins.

Well, what if Xykon decides to blackmail the gods by himself?

:xykon: Either you give me the world to rule, or I'll have the Snarl undo your existances.

Xykon might as well find out about RC's plan right now, and he will still play along so he can betray him at the right moment.

Actually, I'd expect both of them to betray each other, at the same time, after they gain control of the last gate.

Cronos988

2012-01-08, 10:53 AM

I refer specifically to the idea of RC leaving and/or betraying Xykon. Attempting to gain leverage over him is another matter (it has its own problems, namely that it would require RC to grow a spine, but it wouldn't necessitate a complete reversal of RC's entire character).

I would agree that RC is unlikely to abandon Xykon. He needs him, what other option does he have to get the plan done?

This looks more like making himself irreplacable for Xykon to me. RC is showing a character development towards taking more control, and the newest comic shows that quite nicely, since he is clearly displayed as a "Villain" (for lack of a better word) in his own right and not just a henchman.

Xykon is unreliable, and RC has to expect betrayal. His insurance is his half of the Ritual, but since Xykon is takin steps to decipher it, RC may well decide that he needs some additional control. I doubt he will confront Xykon openly, that won't advance his goals in any way, and I doubt his development in that regard is quite finished. But he may be making contingencies. I don't know exactly what he could do to the Phylactery that gives him more control, but since he knows the protective enchantments, he may be able to tamper with them.

Kish

2012-01-08, 11:04 AM

You guys didn't consider one thing:

What the ritual does is not to make the Dark One conquer the world.

What the ritual does is enable you to teleport the Snarl to anywhere you want, including the plane where the gods are.

Not quite. What the ritual does is give the Dark One control of the rifts. (As far as Redcloak knows, assuming the Dark One has no surprises in store for Redcloak, which is an assumption I'm uninclined to make.)

Redcloak wants to do this so the Dark one can blackmail the gods into making a better world for the goblins.

Well, what if Xykon decides to blackmail the gods by himself?

First, it would need to be possible to modify the ritual so that it gives control of the rifts to the caster of the arcane half of the ritual, not to the Dark One.

Then, Xykon would need to know how to do so.

Bleak Ink

2012-01-08, 01:04 PM

There seems to be a lot of banking on Tsukiko siding with Xykon as a replacement for Redcloak. Considering either half of the ritual is within her potential range of abilities (if not knowledge at this point), could she not be used as a replacement for Xykon? Via heartbreak or other means of persuading her, naturally.

PallElendro

2012-01-08, 02:12 PM

Impossibru. For one, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster for his ritual for turning a new leaf for the Dark One with the gods. Xykon needs Redcloak for his not-gonna-happen world domination.

They need each other. Like bros. Except those bros hate each other.

Bleak Ink

2012-01-08, 02:29 PM

Emanick

2012-01-09, 01:33 AM

That's the thing with the Mystic Theurge class; she can manipulate divine and arcane magic. As much as the hate-bros need a member of the opposite magical persuasion, she could hypothetically fill either roll.

I'm going to have to start using "hate-bros" in casual conversation from now on. :smallbiggrin:

On an unrelated and much less awesome note, it seems unlikely that Xykon will discover what the ritual really does. If he ever does, he will promptly kill Redcloak and stop pursuing the Gates, which would make mincemeat of the plot. Unless the discovery takes place in Sunken Valley, I think this is one of the few things we can assume Rich will never allow to happen.

Jaros

2012-01-09, 01:51 AM

I'm going to have to start using "hate-bros" in casual conversation from now on. :smallbiggrin:

On an unrelated and much less awesome note, it seems unlikely that Xykon will discover what the ritual really does. If he ever does, he will promptly kill Redcloak and stop pursuing the Gates, which would make mincemeat of the plot. Unless the discovery takes place in Sunken Valley, I think this is one of the few things we can assume Rich will never allow to happen.

He could attempt to alter the ritual somehow (most likely with someone else helping him study), but any co-operation between him and RC after that point would be outright forcing the other to do their bidding.

SoC175

2012-01-09, 02:06 AM

He didn't even know it was half a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html), much less that it was divine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).She didn't. Xykon certainly knew that it was his arcane half

Morgan Wick

2012-01-09, 03:56 AM

Long one here, so I'm going to spoiler the whole thing rather than individual discussions of material from SoD.

But if that's not enough, how about an upcoming attempt by Redcloak to decieve or blackmail Xykon about the phylactery? Because I see that coming.
That's the big piece I get from the last strip.

I admit, I did wonder if this might happen when I saw the title. Redcloak may now be in a position to control when (and, to some extent, if) Xykon finds out that his phylactery has been found, at least up to the point where he doesn't tick Xykon off too much if and when he does eventually find out, though I don't think it's going to be enough to cause a split now (and I certainly don't think he'd even consider destroying it). At the very least, this does seem to be leading to a statement on the Xykon-Redcloak relationship.

What do you think that half a ritual Xykon gave to Tsuikko was, exactly? You think it was the arcane half?? Really??? And that makes sense why? Xykon is teaching Tsuikko what is needed for Xykon to be replaced, rather than Redcloak? You must be kidding me.

This I don't agree with. You're assuming that what we saw was Xykon prepping Tsukiko to replace Redcloak. While Xykon may have that in his plans, it seems more likely that he was simply trying to learn more about it - recall that he only knows of the ritual from what Redcloak told him. I'm not sure he even wants Tsukiko to reverse-engineer it (he may not have even known it's a two-part ritual at all), only try to find out what it actually does. Regardless of whether Redcloak wrote down his half of the ritual, I agree with the poster who said he has zero motivation to let Xykon see it, and I find it extremely unlikely Tsukiko can reverse-engineer it by herself, which means while Xykon may be enamored of the idea of replacing Redcloak, that may be more effective as a way of keeping Redcloak in check than an actual realistic possibility. Jirix may be a more likely candidate to replace Redcloak than Tsukiko; remember Xykon threatened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) (third-to-last panel) that he might kill Redcloak and give the Crimson Mantle to Jirix, which presumably would teach Jirix everything about The Plan that he needs to know (link provided because Zevox, at least, seems to need a reminder).

Anyway, Xykon is headed to the gate, but nobody thinks he's going to actually get the gate, enact the ritual, Game Over, Bad Guys Win.

So somebody's going to nail him, and whoever it is, is probably not going to be stupid enough to fail to destroy the phylactery this time. Given all the trouble Xykon has had with it, I personally expect that Xykon doesn't want it coming to the Gate. This is, in my opinion, very likely to involve a serious confrontation with Redcloak.

Before the gate.

I admit, this is actually a pretty good argument for why there might be a confrontation between Xykon and Redcloak before Girard's Gate, as opposed to at it. Assuming, of course, Xykon needs to be "nailed" as the only alternative to capturing the gate.

You know what else would be an alternative to Xykon capturing the gate? IF THERE ISN'T A GATE ANYMORE BECAUSE SOMEONE DESTROYED IT!!!!! You know how I know Xykon can win and that still happens? BECAUSE THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO SOON'S GATE!!!!!!! And that's before we get into the possibility of Xykon deciding to get the phylactery out of the way without confronting Redcloak, because honestly, it's dumb for Xykon to betray Redcloak and still let him keep the phylactery, and Redcloak clearly doesn't need it to serve as his holy symbol (perhaps Xykon can move it to a dimension where he knows where it is, he's reasonably confident there's no one opposing him there, and he can escape it easily if need be?).

I actually don't expect Xykon to find out what the ritual is really for, because he would learn that his whole plan is more or less pointless except to give control of the Snarl to a God Xykon doesn't follow. There is then no reason for Xykon to be interested in the plan any longer. Thus Xykon's role in the story is over, no longer taking over the world, etc.

Unless it happens at the last gate, which has been one of my personal favorite theories for how the betrayal happens: Xykon and Redcloak actually succeed at the ritual, but Xykon is enraged when it doesn't do what he thinks it's going to do and has the MitD eat Redcloak (by the way, that standing order from SoD tells me it's not going to be Xykon betraying Redcloak, whenever it happens, unless it's something like this), and the rest of the comic involves trying to stop the Dark One's plan from coming to fruition somehow. (Working against this: Xykon is no longer the main villain and may actually team up with the OOTS to stop the Dark One, although the existence of only one gate and whatever the secret of the planet-in-the-planet is may screw up the Dark One's plan anyway. Working for this: This is one way for the split to happen without Tsukiko's involvement.) Presumably, you mean "in this book" (though Emanick clearly didn't).

I think it matters a lot, because unless Xykon finds out what the ritual really does, I have a really hard time of making sense of RC betraying Xykon. Which I believe is half the point of this thread. Heck it would make more sense for RC to sacrifice himself to save Xykon, as long as he's convinced Xykon is seeking to perform the ritual, because RC probably knows he's easier to replace than Xykon is.

Actually, as ebas and Bleak Ink mentioned, it's a lot easier for Tsukiko to replace Xykon than Redcloak, because, well, she already has the arcane half of the ritual, and I imagine she's higher-level than Jirix even if neither is anywhere near epic level. The only reason Redcloak doesn't is a) his sunk-cost fallacy with Xykon and b) Redcloak and Tsukiko can't stand one another (and I can't imagine Tsukiko is really any easier for him to control than Xykon, though for different reasons). Xykon needs a goblin cleric to replace Redcloak unless he can somehow coax the divine half of the ritual out of Lirian's bound soul; Redcloak just needs a powerful arcane caster, he's just too committed to Xykon at this point to go with anyone else (though even then I wouldn't put it past him if the opportunity presents itself, like, say, an IFCC-controlled V). Long story short, if Redcloak sacrifices himself to save Xykon, Right-Eye's death isn't much less of a waste than if he'd betrayed him (though I do think he'd be fine with someone else performing the ritual so long as the ritual is actually performed).

I don't think Xykon wants the phylactery coming with him to Girard. And I don't think Redcloak is going to let it be taken from him.

Earlier in this same post, you say that Redcloak would not be fine with someone else performing the ritual, contra what I said above. There is no reason to think Xykon's reaction to Redcloak refusing to give up the phylactery is going to be anything other than killing him. That doesn't sound like a set of circumstances that make it likely Redcloak is going to stand up to Xykon at that point.

You're forgetting why that happened though. Xykon was going to kill Redcloak and Right-Eye, until Redcloak pointed out that he needed him for the ritual. He knows it, Xykon doesn't. That's why I emphasized that the one thing that could cause Xykon to turn on Redcloak is getting the full ritual. It's the only leverage Redcloak has on him, and they both know it because of that incident. The phylactery doesn't matter unless Xykon's body gets destroyed, so, as he demonstrated in that incident, it can't be used as leverage against him.

That was before a) Redcloak killed Right-Eye and made it so that Xykon doesn't need to need Redcloak because Redcloak needs Xykon more, and b) Xykon got the bright idea that if he wanted to, he could kill Redcloak and give the Crimson Mantle to another goblin cleric. For the latter reason, post 45 is wrong as well.

Jubal_Barca

2012-01-09, 01:39 PM

Is there anything RC can do to the Phylactery? It's got a lot of enchantments on it already, but he could potentially add something else to it. Like, say, some form of divine spell that fires upon his death and will smash the thing. That might be useful to pull on Xykon if X betrays or attacks RC; he weakens himself immensely if he does so.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-09, 04:56 PM

Long one here, so I'm going to spoiler the whole thing rather than individual discussions of material from SoD.

Thanks, Morgan. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was spoilering SoD anymore - at least in this thread there are lots of SoD comments that should have been spoilered. No sweat for me, I already have SoD, but others should not have it spoiled w too many reveals about Right Eye, or the true secret Plan of Redcloak and the Dark One, etc.

Fish

2012-01-10, 03:32 PM

My prediction:

Redcloak captures the phylactery. Tsukiko interrupts his moment of triumph and wrests it from him. She presents it to Xykon with her love; he rejects her. Tsukiko declares eternal hatred for both of them, and goes off to control the Snarl on her own. Xykon verifies Redcloak's loyalty by checking under the eyepatch; he has not regrown the eye.

Redcloak and Xykon are united against a common enemy and are more dangerous united than they were fractured and opposed.

Morgan Wick

2012-01-10, 11:46 PM

Thanks, Morgan. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was spoilering SoD anymore - at least in this thread there are lots of SoD comments that should have been spoilered.

I considered not spoilering it on the grounds that this is the sort of thread with blanket SoD spoilers at this point anyway. I mostly ended up spoilering it for length.

eras10

2012-01-10, 11:53 PM

Morgan,

that was a great response.

Briefly, (no more time to post this week)

You know what else would be an alternative to Xykon capturing the gate? IF THERE ISN'T A GATE ANYMORE BECAUSE SOMEONE DESTROYED IT!!!!!

I don't buy it. Xykon and OOTS, as a group, didn't even meet in the fight for Soon's gate, which allowed it to be blown. It would take a heck of a deus ex machina if someone just blows the gate and the fight is a draw. It is heavily foreshadowed that they're actually going to fight this time, meaning OOTS and Xykon. How exactly does OOTS get out alive without defeating Xykon? Do they physically run away from the epic sorceror lich? I doubt it.

The whole story is heavily foreshadowing that someone is going to beat Xykon at Girard, and he will regenerate for Kraggor. That's one reason why he's so useful as a main villain, you can repeatedly kill him. The whole point of O-Chul getting all that info on Xykon is so he can be a lesson in how you can beat major villians with careful preparation.

I'm making some assumptions and guesses here. I just feel that they're the right ones. How does the Linear Guild factor in? I don't know. The gate may be blown in the end. But I can tell you who's not going to control Girard's gate: Xykon. I just think he's going to have his body destroyed. Why would he run away? Has he ever run away from a fight? Even one he was losing?

Actually, as ebas and Bleak Ink mentioned, it's a lot easier for Tsukiko to replace Xykon than Redcloak,

This is, no offense... not smart. Tsuikko can't replace Xykon. He's an epic sorceror lich. He's by far the most powerful entity in the entire story. Without Xykon, Tsuikko and Redcloak, as a 'team', don't have the power to take on anyone. Redcloak understands that. I've said about 10 times in this thread, Redcloak is not about to replace Xykon. Try to control, maybe. Threaten, maybe. Confront, maybe. Decieve, maybe. Betray.. possibly. But there is no replacement.

Xykon can replace redcloak with anyone who can handle the ritual because Xykon is the sledgehammer that can destroy anyone who gets in the way. Not Redcloak. (although redcloak is getting stronger... O'Chul vs. Redcloak, O'Chul vs. Xykon.. prosecution rests).

Of course, the secret lesson Rich wants to be revealed is that Redcloak is as important to Xykon as vice versa. Which we'll see when Xykon goes to Girard without Redcloak and gets whipped. But Xykon doesn't believe it and would never admit it.

That doesn't sound like a set of circumstances that make it likely Redcloak is going to stand up to Xykon at that point.

Xykon won't be able to kill Redcloak if Redcloak hides his phylactery. Basically ever. Then Xykon would never find out where his phylactery is. It's not a hard blackmail: If I don't give the orders, my mystery friends destroy the phylactery.

Jirix may be a more likely candidate to replace Redcloak than Tsukiko;

I don't think so. Jirix's loyalty is no more certain than Redcloak's, and loyalty is precisely the problem between Redcloak and Xykon - or maybe a better word is alliegance. Xykon is Tsuikko's alpha and omega - she is the attitude Xykon wants.

eras10

2012-01-13, 10:20 AM

So..........

All you folks in this thread who said that SoD demonstrates that Redcloak would never defy, betray, or otherwise mess with Xykon over something related to the phylactery... how does strip 827 strike you, hm?

Pheldagriff

2012-01-13, 11:15 AM

again and again I see people thinking that now that RC has the phylactery, he will betray Xykon

that doesn't make sense. RC had the phylactery all the time until o-chul took it away from him. it is his holy symbol. now that RC has it back, there is no need to hide that fact from Xykon and Xykon will be "oh, be sure to not miss that one again or you'll really regret it" and RC will be like "ok, master, I'll take good care of it"

Fish

2012-01-13, 11:31 AM

All you folks in this thread who said that SoD demonstrates that Redcloak would never defy, betray, or otherwise mess with Xykon over something related to the phylactery... how does strip 827 strike you, hm?
Redcloak won't betray Xykon in the short term; what happens if they get hold of the Snarl is anybody's guess.

The fact that Redcloak doesn't want the polymorphed spy to blab could mean anything from "I don't want anybody to know we found the bauble" to "I don't want anyone to know that the bauble we told them to find was Xykon's phylactery." Until we know why he's being secretive, it doesn't indicate betrayal ... yet.

Cronos988

2012-01-14, 05:03 AM

Redcloak won't betray Xykon in the short term; what happens if they get hold of the Snarl is anybody's guess.

The fact that Redcloak doesn't want the polymorphed spy to blab could mean anything from "I don't want anybody to know we found the bauble" to "I don't want anyone to know that the bauble we told them to find was Xykon's phylactery." Until we know why he's being secretive, it doesn't indicate betrayal ... yet.

I don't know, this sounds a lot like your are discarding a whole lot of clues in the last couple of strips.

Yes it does not mean "betrayal" yet, but that is the most obvious reason for that amount of secrecy and preparation. Would just not letting anyone find out that Xykon has lost his Phylactery warrant killing fellow Goblins? We have no indication that Team Evil ever made it a secret.

On the other Hand, the whole setup is just perfect for getting a hold on the Phylactery. Everything fits together: Letting the Resistance take it in the first place, then not taking any Goblins with you to get it back, kill all survivors that are not summons... It is the explanation that fits best.

Ashtagon

2012-01-14, 07:26 AM

As long as Redcloak had the phylactery/holy-symbol, he had to be wearing it or it would arouse suspicion in Xykon. And as long as RC and the phylactery were in the same place, it was easy for X to crush him any time he dared rebel, and then reclaim his phylactery.

Currently, X still believes his phylactery to be missing, and the only way he can recover it is to have the gobbos searching for it. Unfortunately for X, the gobbos are loyal to RC, not X, so X needs to kep RC alive as long as the phylactery is still missing.

While X could just kill RC and order the gobbos directly, there's no guarantee that random gobbo won't destroy it rather than give it to him; and if he does kill RC, then random gobbo would have a strong incentive to revenge by destroying it should he find it.

Morgan Wick

2012-01-14, 10:05 PM

I don't buy it. Xykon and OOTS, as a group, didn't even meet in the fight for Soon's gate, which allowed it to be blown. It would take a heck of a deus ex machina if someone just blows the gate and the fight is a draw. It is heavily foreshadowed that they're actually going to fight this time, meaning OOTS and Xykon. How exactly does OOTS get out alive without defeating Xykon? Do they physically run away from the epic sorceror lich? I doubt it.

I admit I doubt the destruction of Girard's Gate is going to be anything like the destruction of Soon's where it serves as the culmination of a significant character's story, but there is no reason to believe it won't happen, considering it's happened to all the gates so far, contra your first sentence below.

All Xykon really cares about is the gate. He's only concerned about "those meddling kids" insofar as they keep him from the gate. I admit I have a hard time seeing why he wouldn't finish the OOTS off if he has them on the ropes when the gate is blown, but maybe the inclusion of Tarquin and Nale will change things. In fact I'm not buying that it's "heavily foreshadowed" that the OOTS and Xykon will actually meet this time; I could see most of the fight being between OOTS and Tarquin/Linear Guild with Xykon only showing up when it's mostly over. But even then, remember, Xykon doesn't really remember who the OOTS even are.

The whole story is heavily foreshadowing that someone is going to beat Xykon at Girard, and he will regenerate for Kraggor. That's one reason why he's so useful as a main villain, you can repeatedly kill him. The whole point of O-Chul getting all that info on Xykon is so he can be a lesson in how you can beat major villians with careful preparation.

You're not very genre savvy, are you? The whole point of O-Chul getting all that info on Xykon, and even more so Roy making all those plans, is that it's not going to work (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee).

I'm making some assumptions and guesses here. I just feel that they're the right ones. How does the Linear Guild factor in? I don't know. The gate may be blown in the end. But I can tell you who's not going to control Girard's gate: Xykon. I just think he's going to have his body destroyed. Why would he run away? Has he ever run away from a fight? Even one he was losing?

The instant Soon threatened to have his phylactery destroyed, Xykon couldn't wait to get out of dodge. And after the OOTS beat him in the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon wanted to run when the MitD thought the battle was still going on, and I think Xykon made clear on that occasion that he would be willing to run away if prudence dictated. He just hasn't been on the losing end of many fights; I think the only three we've seen him on the losing end of were the aforementioned two at the Azure City Throne Room and Dungeon of Dorukan and the First Battle of Lirian's Gate, and in the latter two cases the battle rather abruptly turned when Xykon was rendered in no position to do much of anything.

This is, no offense... not smart. Tsuikko can't replace Xykon. He's an epic sorceror lich. He's by far the most powerful entity in the entire story. Without Xykon, Tsuikko and Redcloak, as a 'team', don't have the power to take on anyone. Redcloak understands that. I've said about 10 times in this thread, Redcloak is not about to replace Xykon. Try to control, maybe. Threaten, maybe. Confront, maybe. Decieve, maybe. Betray.. possibly. But there is no replacement.

You misread what I said. Tsukiko can't match Xykon in power, but there's no reason to believe she can't replace him for the gate ritual. I believe I said Redcloak would not want to do so, though for different reasons.

Xykon can replace redcloak with anyone who can handle the ritual because Xykon is the sledgehammer that can destroy anyone who gets in the way. Not Redcloak. (although redcloak is getting stronger... O'Chul vs. Redcloak, O'Chul vs. Xykon.. prosecution rests).

That ignores the question of whether Xykon has the other half of the ritual, which was the crux of what I said.

Xykon won't be able to kill Redcloak if Redcloak hides his phylactery. Basically ever. Then Xykon would never find out where his phylactery is. It's not a hard blackmail: If I don't give the orders, my mystery friends destroy the phylactery.

I admit, when I wrote that I was working under the notion that, after killing Redcloak, Xykon would be able to recover the phylactery rather easily, if he hadn't already done so. And it is also true that Xykon probably values the phylactery more now than he did in SoD, having near-lost it twice. But I don't know if Redcloak wants to risk Xykon calling his bluff. Besides, we're talking about Xykon essentially doing the same thing if he had the phylactery on him. I think he'd either kill Redcloak suddenly, or extort the information out of Redcloak and then kill him. Regardless of how much he can do about it, I don't think Xykon is willing to put up with allowing anyone else to call the shots for any reason.

I don't think so. Jirix's loyalty is no more certain than Redcloak's, and loyalty is precisely the problem between Redcloak and Xykon - or maybe a better word is alliegance. Xykon is Tsuikko's alpha and omega - she is the attitude Xykon wants.

We don't know that much about Jirix. Redcloak's motivation comes from the trauma in his life, as manipulated by the Dark One; Jirix's motivation, if he has much of any, comes pretty much exclusively from Redcloak. I only see Jirix having a problem with Xykon if he feels Xykon is jeopardizing The Plan.

After 826, I was doubting the direction the OP was going more because it wasn't an attack on the resistance that just happened to recover the phylactery. After 827, it is obviously a different story, and the way in which Redcloak used the Resistance is rather interesting. But I will refrain from saying more until Monday. I want a chance to see where exactly Rich is going with this.

eras10

2012-01-15, 12:00 AM

Another good response. I may have overstated some things.

#1. Maybe Xykon isn't above fleeing ever, although Soon's fight is the only one I really give credit for (In Dorkukan, his body was already toast). However, I don't see him running from a gate. He's certainly not quick to run - even in the soon fight, he was initially willing to have his body destroyed and was very late in fleeing - he was outclassed well before he bailed.

#2. I take it back. There's plenty of chance of the Gate being blown, although I think there's also a chance it may fall into someone's hands (but not Xykon). I still don't see a draw for Xykon in the next fight. In fact, I still see his body being destroyed outright, especially if my main prediction comes true and Redcloak doesn't even come to Girard's Gate. What happens with OOTS, I change my mind - I really don't know. With the Linear Guild about, there are too many variables, and I agree the fights could go any way.

You're not very genre savvy, are you? The whole point of O-Chul getting all that info on Xykon, and even more so Roy making all those plans, is that it's not going to work.

Sure, Rich drops in red herrings like this a lot, so who knows? But I don't agree. I think Rich is making a big point here about perseverance and careful preparation letting a team punch above their weight level, and I personally think they may take Xykon. However, in another way I agree with you. A better, more true version of that trope is when all the careful plans work just right in their tactical purpose but a new surprise immediately sets them back at square one or turns the tables.
So I don't think you're taking this trope the right way.

I don't think Xykon is willing to put up with allowing anyone else to call the shots for any reason.

I spoke carelessly there. I wasn't thinking of Redcloak blackmailing for calling the shots, generally. I meant, the idea that if Redcloak dissapeared, some friends somewhere would destroy the phylactery. But that plan is, I admit, riddled with vulnerabilities.

The reason I think Redcloak wants the phylactery is something like "leverage" and "insurance".
The one thing I'm struggling with, in my idea, is the idea of Redcloak making an overt threat. I think that Xykon would find one-upping that hard to resist, and it would be hard to pull off. So I'm sort of agreeing with you.
What does this leave me with?

#1. My main prediction is wrong. Redcloak is playing a long game with the phylactery, maybe subtly altering it or swapping it with a fake, but there's no overt conflict before the gate.

#2. Like #1, but Xykon sniffs it out immediately and tries (but presumably fails) to kill Redcloak, breaking up the team before Girard.

#3. Rather than an overt threat, Redcloak just prevents Xykon with a fait accompli. "The phylactery is... in a safe place, Xykon. We have things to do, don't we?"

Meh. Today I'm feeling skeptical of my own idea. The most convincing version is that Xykon sniffs out whatever Redcloak is planning and kicks him to the curb. But even then, it makes less sense to try to do that while smack in the middle of Redcloak's seat of power.

Fish

2012-01-15, 08:53 PM

I don't know, this sounds a lot like your are discarding a whole lot of clues in the last couple of strips. ... It is the explanation that fits best.
Therefore, I estimate, it is probably wrong.

The one thing we can say for certain about the last few strips is that there have been regular reversals. We think we know where it's going, but suddenly we don't. I'm betting against the obvious here.

Morgan Wick

2012-01-16, 10:32 PM

The funny thing is, I think eras and I always agreed on the fundamentals (that this might be leading up to Redcloak standing up to Xykon) and I've been spending most of my time in this thread playing devil's advocate and making sure he didn't trust his own snap judgments too much.

I've summarized my thoughts here (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2012/01/redcloak-you-magnificent-bastard-i-read-your-book/), but I'm starting to consider the possibility that Redcloak merely wants to make sure the phylactery is on his person and not Xykon's. I don't actually believe it because that would be quite the lengths to go to ensure a condition that hasn't actually gotten him anything, but I wouldn't be completely surprised by it.

Ashtagon

2012-01-18, 12:32 PM

Speculation...

Redcloak will have a heel face turn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn) moment at the story climax, aiding the oots in defeating Xykon, but dying in the process. However, his fame/notoriety in building the first successful oblin nation has had the effect of ascending him to the ranks of godhood, giving the goblins a pantheon of two, and a real chance of having a deity who wants all races to live together thanks to his heel about face.

BloodSquirrel

2012-01-18, 03:59 PM

One thing to keep in mind here:

RC needs "The Plan". It's everything to him.

Xykon doesn't. It's a good evil scheme, sure, but for Xykon it's more about enjoying the journey than it is a burning desire to rule the world. If it comes down to it, Xykon can kill Redcloak, abandon the plan, and move on to other things.

rewinn

2012-01-18, 04:13 PM

It seems to me that it is equally likely that OOTS will drop V and Haley in favor of Guy With A Halberd and Miko's ghost, plus Durkon will turn CE and Belkar will buy a puppy.

Also the art style will become manga.

I mean, seriously. Surely the inherent conflict between RC and X will boil over at some point, but for it not to occur at the very climax of the series would be both dramatically odd and strategically unwise for both X and RC.

But who knows? It could happen!

eras10

2012-01-19, 11:59 PM

Every strip that passes has so far made my guess here look awesomer and awesomer. I don't get many of these vindications so I might as well enjoy it before the other shoe drops :smallcool:

Flame of Anor

2012-01-20, 05:43 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-20, 06:43 AM

A break in the alliance is practically inevitable at this point, especially with Tsukiko unbalancing the relationship. However with two gates left to play for, the alliance breaking now feels wrong, unless Kraagor's gate turns out to be a misdirection. Tsukiko tipped her hand by breaking into Redcloak's study, so no matter who ends up in possession and control of what, the relationship between the three of them will be strained further by the time we leave Gobbotopia. The true opportunity for who breaks away from who will be in the upcoming battle for Girard's gate.

eras10

2012-01-20, 10:01 AM

However with two gates left to play for, the alliance breaking now feels wrong, unless Kraagor's gate turns out to be a misdirection. Tsukiko tipped her hand by breaking into Redcloak's study, so no matter who ends up in possession and control of what, the relationship between the three of them will be strained further by the time we leave Gobbotopia. The true opportunity for who breaks away from who will be in the upcoming battle for Girard's gate.

As truly flattered as I am to get RMS Oceanic in my thread, I disagree for the following reasons:

#1. Well, this doesn't really count, because I disagreed before #828. But now that we're here, the new reason is that it seems pretty clear to me that Redcloak is about to learn that Tsuikko is nosing around the ritual. And not just curious, but hell-bent and brazen, ransacking his own quarters. What's the exact one thing Redcloak cannot take chances about for The Plan?

Xykon discovering what The Ritual actually does. That's an instant death sentence and his complete ruin.

So Redcloak has no choice, none whatsoever, but to try to rub Tsuikko out. Ironically, if she dies, the final split isn't actually coming right now, because Xykon will have no one to replace Redcloak with again. So I imagine she'll either survive or Xykon will have her raised somehow.

It's possible he'll try to wait, but who knows when Xykon is coming back?

#2. The Gerard's Gate battle is complicated enough, between Team Evil, OOTS, Girard's forces, the Linear Guild, Tarquin, and the IFCC. Having a team evil split happening at the same time is frankly both messy and superfluous. There are enough loose ends that we don't NEED a Team Evil split *at the gate* to undo Xykon.

#3. On the other hand, a Team Evil split *right now* weakens Team Evil and makes their flat-out defeat by OOTS (maybe with Girard) at the gate more likely. As was reinforced by *just the last several strips*, Redcloak and Xykon and Tsuikko together are just overwhelmingly powerful, especially since Redcloak has all the healing.

androkguz

2012-01-20, 09:24 PM

Hello everyone, I just joined the forums because I had to tell you all my wild (but not that wild) guess about what is soon going to happen between the lovely Team Evil family.

So here it is, the very near future acording to androkguz:

1- What Tsukiko is looking for in Redcloak's office is nothing less than the other half of The Ritual (capital R so it is not confused with other, less important rituals). The reason why she is doing it is, of course, because she is on Xykon's side. Either he told her to do it, or he told her enough about The Plan (capital P) for her to figure out that Redcloak had to be hidding the other half. She figures that, it must be written somewhere, and maybe she has her doubts about what it does, doubts that began by studying the arcane half.
But she is wrong, as complicated as The Ritual may be, the crimson mantle imprinted the whole knowledge of it on Redcloak's brain. There is no written version of the divine half.

2- So after Tsukiko asks Redcloak directly for the half of The Ritual he will, of course, tell her to go **** herself with a *********** in a *********, or something like that.
Xykon won't be pleased, and he will then go to Redcloak. At this point, Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak at all. He wants to replace him, and he knows exactly what moves his little one-eyed bitch.
The epic level lich will give the high priest of goblinoids two choices:
:xykon: "either you write down, with full details, your whole half of The Ritual, or I will kill EVERY single goblinoid in this city. And I will have my time with the kids and make you watch. But if you give me the ritual, I will let you irrelevant city exist in my new world. Ain't that what you wanted? To have your ugly tusked siblins live in cities like the humans? Well, you will get one.
Ohh, and you better not think you can fool me, if you tell me something that makes no sense to Tsukiko I will come back here and masacre everyone.
So start talking"

3- So Redcloak will have his huge dramatic moment where we will have to choose what to do, and altought it will hurt him so much, he is gonna have to tell Xykon
:redcloak: "No... You can intimidate me into doing any number of humiliating or horrible things. But you can't intimidate me into giving you the only thing that gives my race a future. You are taking me, and only me, as the divine caster."
This is because he is already soooooo pot comited to The Plan that no cost is too high. And altought he knows that fulfilling the ritual, no matter who does it, is a win for him, he can't risk Tsukiko figuring that out.

So yeah, I sense the end of Gobbotopia coming.

androkguz

2012-01-20, 09:26 PM

double post

AlfredAmeoba

2012-01-20, 10:39 PM

You sir, know how to first post.

That is an interesting point, but I doubt that RC would let Gobbotopia end. He has pretty much achieved legitimacy for the goblinoids, now all he needs to do is to get Xykon out of there. Although I doubt he would trust Xykon to leave them alone when he is grand poobah of the cosmos.

Also, I SERIOUSLY need to find my copy of Start of Darkness.

Flame of Anor

2012-01-20, 11:41 PM

That is an interesting point, but I doubt that RC would let Gobbotopia end. He has pretty much achieved legitimacy for the goblinoids, now all he needs to do is to get Xykon out of there. Although I doubt he would trust Xykon to leave them alone when he is grand poobah of the cosmos.

If the Plan succeeds, Xykon won't be grand poobah of the cosmos.

androkguz

2012-01-21, 12:31 AM

You sir, know how to first post.
Why, thank you very much.

That is an interesting point, but I doubt that RC would let Gobbotopia end. He has pretty much achieved legitimacy for the goblinoids, now all he needs to do is to get Xykon out of there. Although I doubt he would trust Xykon to leave them alone when he is grand poobah of the cosmos.
Also, I SERIOUSLY need to find my copy of Start of Darkness.
Yeah, you do. :smallamused:
It is because of Start of Darkness that I believe that Redcloak would end up sacrificing Gobbotopia if the situation I imagined were to happen. For him, The Plan is such an important thing that no sacrifice is too big. Not his honor, not any number of goblinoids, not even his own family.
While I agree that he has pretty much achieved legitimacy, The Plan would probably help all the goblinoinds in the world, not just one nation.
Plus, Xykon needs be got rid of.

androkguz

2012-01-22, 10:18 AM

1- What Tsukiko is looking for in Redcloak's office is nothing less than the other half of The Ritual (capital R so it is not confused with other, less important rituals). The reason why she is doing it is, of course, because she is on Xykon's side. Either he told her to do it, or he told her enough about The Plan (capital P) for her to figure out that Redcloak had to be hidding the other half. She figures that, it must be written somewhere, and maybe she has her doubts about what it does, doubts that began by studying the arcane half.
But she is wrong, as complicated as The Ritual may be, the crimson mantle imprinted the whole knowledge of it on Redcloak's brain. There is no written version of the divine half.

Called it! I'm 1/3 so far :)

Sethis

2012-01-22, 11:37 AM

This is the end for Tsukiko. Redcloak Word of Recalled outside his study, which means there is likely a teleport blocking effect built into the wards inside. Tsukiko has just gone to the point where Redcloak cannot afford to let her live with that kind of leverage.

Tsukiko is going to die, her soul is then going to be trapped or destroyed to ensure silence. A quick Soul Trap, and a toss into either the Snarl's pit or a Gate to an Archdevil's palace would do the trick. As to the body, Redcloak kills two birds with one stone. He puts the Phylactery (or a reasonable fake) on Tsukiko, and claims that she was the one to track down the resistance who stole it (as it was her job) and she then decided to keep it and betray/control Xykon with it. Redcloak then killed her to recover it.

Get rid of all the wights, and there is nobody else to say otherwise. Xykon would buy it, and everything is peachy.

Flame of Anor

2012-01-22, 05:36 PM

Winter Light

2012-01-22, 07:23 PM

rman

2012-01-22, 07:48 PM

Redcloak was ordered to find the phylactery. The goblins succeeded.

Tsuikko was ordered to defeat the resistance. She has not done so, and their is evidence that the resistance made off with the newly-found phylactery.

The resistance and the phylactery will not now be found. Did they get away with it? I suspect the cloister Xykon cast will prevent divinations will work to discover what happened just as it prevented the resistance from being discovered.

Who succeeded ? Who failed ? Who is going to be pissed off ?

eras10

2012-01-22, 08:30 PM

Proooobably not where this is going, but...

What if, through whatever series of events, Team Evil does in fact split, but RC (and presumably Gobbotopia) are left intact?

Say: Redcloak decides to put the plan over his own needs/wants, and is convinced that Tsukiko won't be able to figure out the divine half of the ritual's true purpose. He gives it to her, Tsukiko and Xykon run off to Girard's gate.

At Girard's gate they get beaten, or the gate just generally explodes, Tsukiko dying (one way or another) in the process. Xykon returns back, Team Evil (X + RC) is reunited for Kraagor's gate.

Winter, this is basically what I've been predicting at the start of this thread... sort of. The problem is, though, that giving Tsuikko the divine half of the ritual is very risky.

I presume what's going to happen is that Redcloak is going to fail to kill Tsuikko, and Xykon is going to fail to kill Redcloak. Xykon and Tsuikko are going to head off to to Girard and get beaten.

It just feels right. Redcloak and Xykon genuinely are a good team. Working together, they've overcome most of what has been put in their path. It's a good story for secrets, dissension and the weight of setbacks to destroy their partnership. It's Xykon's tendency to be a ... jerk... paying back in karma.

Then, presumably, yes - Xykon can go find Redcloak, kiss and make up to him, and ... off to Kraggor.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-22, 08:45 PM

...well, actually, I think we all know that the Giant will resolve this in a way that makes perfect sense but which no one was expecting...

QFT. I like to re-read past strips to make sure I understand what is going on, but have pretty much given up on trying to predict what will happen next. Even if I'm right (gee, Tsukiko was looking for the divine half of the ritual, what a shocker) it isn't much of a kick compared to seeing what the Giant will come up with.

eras10

2012-01-23, 07:40 AM

Hmmmm.

Well, now I have to think I was wrong. Xykon can't replace Redcloak anymore, and the story needed a replacement. So....,

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-23, 07:49 AM

The strain in the alliance is still there, it will just require an external source to break it. Possibly something that happens in the fight for Girard's Gate. Or maybe (SoD spoilers)
Right-Eye's daughter?

eras10

2012-01-23, 07:58 AM

See, the thing about Xykon is that, as I've said, he's a great villain because he's regenerable. If you want to keep him alive after he loses a big fight, and the heroes now know he can regenerate? Just hide the phylactery before you leave!

But how Rich will keep Redcloak alive - yet losing this Girard's gate fight - well, I'm sure he's up to the task, but it will be significantly harder.

Of course, Redcloak has used up Word of Recall for the day, and Xykon's coming back today. That was his main horse for escaping from Xykon.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-23, 08:06 AM

Kish

2012-01-23, 08:23 AM

Redcloak had still better think about the implications of Xykon asking Tsukiko to study the ritual.

ORione

2012-01-23, 03:07 PM

Word of Recall wouldn't have helped him anyway, because it takes him to his study... Which is where they are.

t209

2012-01-23, 09:36 PM

Tsukiko is now lifedrained snack for wights.

Morgan Wick

2012-01-23, 11:49 PM

Flame of Anor

2012-01-24, 12:51 AM

eras10

2012-01-24, 01:35 AM

After recent events, rather than put up another lengthy post, I'll just put up another lengthy post.

Not much time to put my finger on why, but I think you're reading Redcloak's "maybe" wrong. While he accepts the risk that Xykon will retaliate for what he's doing now to Pigtail Chick because the alternative is worse, up to and including everything, I don't think he really expects to pay that price.

Nor should he, really. Xykon's a busy guy, especially right now. It's not really practical for him to spend the amount of time needed to slaughter the entire Goblin Nation.

Look at it like this - if X finds out The Plan is of no use to him, he has not only wasted several decades, and Redcloak is useless, but Xykon's schedule clears up rapidly. Even if X wants to punish Redcloak and understands the insubordination, none of the prior conditions are clearly true for him.

Math_Mage

2012-01-24, 03:53 AM

After recent events, rather than put up another lengthy post, I'll just put up another lengthy post (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2012/01/also-contribute-to-richs-kickstarter-drive-and-hasten-the-day-i-get-any-collections-of-the-online-comics-other-than-the-first-if-i-had-money-id-contribute-just-to-get-the-bonus-story/).

I don't think Redcloak has any plans to get into an all-out war with Xykon over Gobbotopia. Nor do I think he will successfully cow Xykon with a threat to his phylactery, considering how well that worked last time. Redcloak's pretense at control over the situation does not make him any less a pawn batted forth between Xykon and the Dark One than he was at the end of SoD. And Redcloak's willingness to kill Tsukiko in no way implies that he's ready to antagonize Xykon or abandon Gobbotopia--he's doing damage control on both counts by eliminating her from the picture.

On a writing note, it was a little difficult to keep track of your post because it meandered so much. You also need to keep the verbosity to a minimum with some ruthless editing. Your post had the feel of someone who spills all his undirected thoughts onto the page because he isn't sure what he wants to say. That's fine when you're brainstorming, but once you have your ideas written down, you need to iteratively condense and reorganize them, piecing the ideas together in such a way that the transitions are natural and each piece supports the overarching structure.

For example, at the end of your first major paragraph, which is where you should lay out the structure of your post, you raise the question of whether we need to reinterpret the events at the end of SoD. Then you muddle around for two paragraphs with one sentence devoted to what actually happened at the end of SoD. Then you explicitly break away to discuss something else entirely. Two paragraphs later you come back to the topic, reaching a tentative conclusion that vaguely agrees with your earlier comments, but doesn't actually account for them. In the entire post, you never attempted to present the standard interpretation of the end of SoD, let alone a reinterpretation. You have a lot of material to work with on this point, but you never organized it into a coherent analysis. Something along the lines of...
-Brief summary of end of SoD
-Standard conclusion about Redcloak drawn from end of SoD
-What about the events in the latest comic(s) casts doubt on that conclusion
-What alternative conclusion those events support
-How well that conclusion fits into the rest of the narrative

...would have communicated a lot more to the reader, and provided a reasonable grounding to talk about Redcloak's tragic devotion to the Dark One, or to speculate about how Redcloak intends to handle Xykon after recent events. Without that grounding, the rest of your post felt sort of pie-in-the-sky.

Also, run-on sentences lead to rambling, undirected writing--after all, they're the product of rambling, undirected thinking. It's a symptom rather than the problem, but disciplining yourself to write separate concise sentences that work together will help you to put your separate thoughts together in a way that flows.

Hope that helps.

Morgan Wick

2012-01-25, 08:21 PM

Not much time to put my finger on why, but I think you're reading Redcloak's "maybe" wrong. While he accepts the risk that Xykon will retaliate for what he's doing now to Pigtail Chick because the alternative is worse, up to and including everything, I don't think he really expects to pay that price.

I think I make that clear later in the post, though not for the reasons you claim. Incidentially, I think the latest comic really lowers the chances of your theory coming to fruition, at least for the reason initially proposed.

On a writing note, it was a little difficult to keep track of your post because it meandered so much. You also need to keep the verbosity to a minimum with some ruthless editing. Your post had the feel of someone who spills all his undirected thoughts onto the page because he isn't sure what he wants to say. That's fine when you're brainstorming, but once you have your ideas written down, you need to iteratively condense and reorganize them, piecing the ideas together in such a way that the transitions are natural and each piece supports the overarching structure.

That particular post was pretty much that: me just trying to make sense of what I'd just seen. I think if you look at some of my other posts (oh look, here's one right here (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2012/01/richs-kickstarter-became-the-most-funded-kickstart-in-the-history-of-the-comics-category-in-two-days/)) they tend to flow better. And even if they don't, I daresay that I personally prefer my style to doing it the "right" way.

In the entire post, you never attempted to present the standard interpretation of the end of SoD, let alone a reinterpretation.

That was intentional, to avoid spoilering people who didn't have SoD. Part of the problem with this post was that I was going to come back to SoD at the end and hide that necessarily-more-spoilery discussion after a jump break, but decided I could still talk around being too specific about it, which left a decimated post structure in its wake. Ironically, I probably still over-spoiled SoD.