Fighting undead as a Rogue

[EpicDermis]

Alright, so I'm playing a Level 5 whisper gnome rogue (15 Str, 21 Dex, 18 Con, 16 Int, 11 Wis, 13 Cha with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as feats) at the moment on an unknown plane. So far, all we've run into is mostly undead and what looks to be a pestilence ridden town that was abandoned. Anyway, my DM has hinted that this might be a somewhat undead-heavy campaign, and I just realized that as a rogue my options are somewhat limited when it comes to fighting them. I've been all over forums trying to figure out a solution, and the route I've found myself wanting to take is the Skullclan Hunter PrC. Only problem is that the Knowledge: Religion 8 looks like it would require 5 class levels into something like cleric. Any suggestions on finding a class/PrC option that would help me out? I've already been considering things bane on my weapons, cure __ wands, and the sort, but it wouldn't hurt to have some options.

[Aharon]

Ask him if it is possible to adopt the Pathfinder rules for sneak attacks. In PF, fewer creatures are immune to SA, and not all undead are among them, IIRC.

Alternatively, get a Wand of Gravestrike. Swift Action to activate, SA undead for 1 round. Can be persisted later on, using a schema of metamagic item (Persistent Spell). (Expensive!)

[Kenneth]

there is a feat ( maybe alternate class feature , can't rmemvber' but It allows you to sneak attack undead as long as you are flnkaing with an ally at half efectiveness. also.. I think there is an exalted PrC that is a lot like the skull clan hunter.. but you get clerical spell progress ( small though it is), but I could just be remembering incorrectly. SKull clan hunter I think is pretty easy to nab. As you are no thuman, I am at a loss on ways to get you skill point rank max up

[tyckspoon]

the route I've found myself wanting to take is the Skullclan Hunter PrC. Only problem is that the Knowledge: Religion 8 looks like it would require 5 class levels into something like cleric. Any suggestions on finding a class/PrC option that would help me out?

Actually just one level of (preferably) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and dump all of your skill points for that level into that Knowledge. Probably need 2 levels if you have to use regular Cleric instead, since they have much worse base skillpoints/level. Your skill caps are based on character level, not class level, so anything that gets you the relevant Knowledge as a class skill will let you buy those 8 ranks.

[Icestorm245]

Actually just one level of (preferably) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and dump all of your skill points for that level into that Knowledge. Probably need 2 levels if you have to use regular Cleric instead, since they have much worse base skillpoints/level. Your skill caps are based on character level, not class level, so anything that gets you the relevant Knowledge as a class skill will let you buy those 8 ranks.

Do this AND replace the knowledge domain for the knowledge devotion feat from Complete Champion. This will help you do extra damage versus the undead. You probably won't get past +2 with only 8 ranks though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wand of Gravestrike. As a Swift action, you can apply precision-based damage to undead this round. UMD is a class skill for a rogue, and you only need a DC 20 check.

Crystal of Truedeath. For 8k, you can apply this crystal to your weapon to allow it to apply precision-based damage to undead.

Swift Hunter would require rogue and scout levels, but allows all precision-based damage to apply to favored enemies. Guess which one you choose for your first level Ranger favored enemy?

[Incriptus]

Wand of Gravestrike. As a Swift action, you can apply precision-based damage to undead this round. UMD is a class skill for a rogue, and you only need a DC 20 check.


Also remember wand chamber [Dungeonscape 34], that way it's easier to wield that wand.



Crystal of Truedeath. For 8k, you can apply this crystal to your weapon to allow it to apply precision-based damage to undead.


But be warned, technically, the greater crystal of truedeath [aka the one you really want] "... functions only when attached to
an object with a magical enhancement bonus of +3 or higher.
Only the item’s actual bonus applies, not its “effective” bonus"

[Gavinfoxx]

The best version of the alternate class feature for sneak attacking undead is in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

[SowZ]

Penetrating Strike.

[Curmudgeon]

The best version of the alternate class feature for sneak attacking undead is in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
Sorry, but that ACF (Lightbringer Penetrating Strike) is not the right choice if you're solely concerned with fighting undead. Death's Ruin (Complete Champion, page 51) is superior: you trade trap sense for the ability to sneak attack undead, with half the normal dice. Whereas Lightbringer Penetrating Strike works on all sneak-immune enemies, it requires that you flank them to add sneak attack damage. Death's Ruin only works against undead but doesn't require flanking, so you can use ranged attacks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Penetrating Strike.

You gonna name a source for that?

[EpicDermis]

Actually just one level of (preferably) Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and dump all of your skill points for that level into that Knowledge. Probably need 2 levels if you have to use regular Cleric instead, since they have much worse base skillpoints/level. Your skill caps are based on character level, not class level, so anything that gets you the relevant Knowledge as a class skill will let you buy those 8 ranks.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense :smallsmile: I talked to my DM and he's willing to let me reroll a character at 5th level (I rolled 16, 11, 15, 18, 16, 15), so I think I'm going to make a human Rogue 4/Cloistered Cleric 1. Would I be better off now just grabbing Gravestrike since it's a level 1 spell? Also, if I did that, would it be viable to go Extend Spell > Persist Spell, and then grab something like Two Weapon Fighting or Weapon Finesse?

[Derjuin]

You can ask the DM if you can replace your Trap Sense ability with Death's Ruin from Complete Champion. It only lets you use half your dice for sneak attacking undead, though. If you grab Cleric levels for getting those Knowledge (Religion) ranks, you can take the spell Gravestrike from Spell Compendium, which would let you sneak attack undead for 1 round. It's a 1st level spell, so you can also get a wand of it, though using that every round would probably get annoying (perhaps bug the DM for an at-will or constant item of it?).

[Curmudgeon]

One important addition to using Death's Ruin or Penetrating Strike against undead is Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17). That feat adds +1 point of damage per character level to each sneak attack. Since only your sneak attack dice are halved, the Craven bonus is at full strength. Effectively, that means your total sneak attack against undead is at about 68% of normal if you maintain 1d6 every 2 levels, and at a higher percentage if you multiclass into something that doesn't maintain that sneak attack advance.

If you want more than a single level dip into (Cloistered) Cleric, get the Sacred Outlaw feat (Dragon # 357, page 86). That adds your Rogue and Cleric levels for sneak attack progression and undead turning attempts.

Eventually you're going to want a Greater Truedeath weapon enhancement crystal (Magic Item Compendium). When added to a +3 or better weapon it lets you apply full sneak attack damage against all undead.

[gorfnab]

You gonna name a source for that?
Penetrating Strike ACF - Dungeonscape page 13

[Gavinfoxx]

I still like the Lightbringer version of Penetrating Strike from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft better than the Dungeonscape version. There's like a one or two word difference, but it's relevant if you are using Craven!

[Psyren]

*snipped for reading fail, OP already knows about Skullclan Hunter*

As others have noted, you only need 1 level of (Cloistered) Cleric to get the necessary Know (Religion) ranks.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a handbook to dipping Cleric 1:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

[hex0]

Here's a handbook to dipping Cleric 1:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

In that same line: the Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623145#post9623145)

[EpicDermis]

Thanks a lot, everyone, lots of great info here that I've poured over! I decided to go human Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric 2 (mainly for some better saves and to open up my options spell- and feat-wise later on), taking Sacred Outlaw, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse as my feats, along with the Penetrating Strike ACF.

I tried talking my DM into allowing for Craven but apparently all these people I play with have a thing against Forgotten Realms and Faerun, claiming that most of the stuff that comes in it is just too much cheese (rightly so, I would have to say). All that really leaves me with now is figuring out which domains to go, and so far Luck is definitely one on my list. Any suggestions for this setup? And no, I haven't even started equipping yet, so I'm sitting with 9000gp at the moment, figuring out what I want for this guy.