Assassins?

[koboldish]

I really like assassins because of their cool class abilities and because of the fluff, but my DM won't let me play an evil one or change the class to allow good assassins :smallmad: . Suggestions?

[Zale]

What about a Rogue?

A stealth focused, sneak attacking Rogue fits Assassin rather well.

[koboldish]

But as an assassin I get hide in plain sight and an extra D6 sneak attack. And poison use.

[FMArthur]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

[koboldish]

Avenger? So... Just a different alignment for an assassin? What book is it from my DM won't let us play anything if we can't show it to him in a book:smallyuk:.

[Morcleon]

Avenger? So... Just a different alignment for an assassin? What book is it from my DM won't let us play anything if we can't show it to him in a book:smallyuk:.

Not from a book. It's listed on the wizards.com official site, so that's pretty much the next best thing.

[Icestorm245]

Avenger? So... Just a different alignment for an assassin? What book is it from my DM won't let us play anything if we can't show it to him in a book:smallyuk:.

Your DM sounds like a hardass... just like mine. Barring Avenger, you could always take a one level dip into Shadowdancer for the HiPS. Slows sneak attack progression a bit, and you get no poison use (poison is rather useless by the way), but it's the next best thing.

[Kaeso]

Why not play a stealth-focused swordsage? Focus on the shadow hand school and you can do all an assassin can and more! If you absolutely, positively want sneak attacks, you can multiclass with rogue for a few levels, take swordsage and pick assassins stance (which gives you +1d6 sneak attack, basically the same as two rogue levels). On top of everything, swordsages actually have strikes/boosts that make the opponent flatfooted, meaning your sneak attack is actually useful for a change!

[Aharon]

Note that the Avenger was published on April 1st. That may be a disadvantage when you try to get it approved, despite its ok fluff and crunch.

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know there are LOTS of ways to get those three things in the D&D system?

From lists of stuff:


Hide in Plain Sight (or similar) (also see the "camouflage" section)
Ranger 17 - natural terrain
Scout 14 - natural terrain
Illusionist 15 (class variant), Unearthed Arcana - unconditional
Assassin 8, ecl 13 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Shadowdancer 1, ecl 8 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Nightsong Infiltrator 10, ecl 17 - natural terrain
Dark Lantern 9, ecl 14, Eberron: Five Nations - does not require natural terrain or concealment, in fact seems totally unconditional
Scar Enforcer 7, ecl 12, Races of Destiny - natural terrain
Wildrunner 5, ecl 10, Races of the Wild - natural terrain
Stalker of Kharesh 4, ecl 9, Book of Exalted Deeds, w/quarter cover or quarter concealment
Wilderness Rogue (UA)
Umbral Disciple 3, ecl 8, Magic of Incarnum, see text
Luiren Marchwarden 5, ECL 10, FR: Shining South - doesn't require cover or concealment, but only works in specific region
Shadar-Kai, race, Fiend Folio, ecl 4
Dark creature, template, Tome of Magic - doesn't require cover or concealment or terrain, but doesn't work in bright light
Shadow Creature, template, Lords of Madness - in shadowy regions only
Lurking Terror 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis - requires cover or concealment
Paladin 6 (Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement - near shadows
Justice of Weald and Woe 9, ecl 15, FR: Champions of Ruin - natural terrain
Planar Touchstone (The Veil), feat, Planar Handbook - near shadow
Hellbreaker 1, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, in any kind of darkness, not called "hide in plain sight"
Shadowspy 9, ecl 13, Complete Champion, in area of sunlight
Sentinel of Bharrai 5, ecl 10, Book of Exalted Deeds, within 10' of natural terrain
Eye of Lloth 6, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark, within 10' of shadow
Ebonmar Infiltrator 8, ecl 13, Cityscape

Special mention
Shadowcraft Mage 1, ecl 8, Races of Stone - constant ability, provides partial concealment, allows hide checks
Collar of umbral metamorphosis, item, tome of magic - gives the Dark Creature template (see above)
Ranger 17 or Scout 14, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, Hide in Plain Site in any urban environment

Poison Use
Assassin 1, ecl 6
Black Flame Zealot 2, ecl 7, Complete Divine
Blackguard 1, ecl 7, DMG
Whisperknife 6, ecl 11, Races of the Wild
Justice of Weald and Woe
Monk of the Long Death
Ninja 3, Complete Adventurer
Zhentarim Spy
Shadow HUnter 1, ecl 6, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Scorpion Wraith 1, ecl 6, Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik
Bard 1, drow substitution level, Drow of the Underdark
Rogue 1, drow substitution level, Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lloth 2, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark

Immunity to poison
Monk 11
Druid 9
Tattoed Monk 3, ecl 9, Complete Warrior, crane tattoo
Elemental Savant 9, ecl 14, Complete Arcane
Bone Knight 8, ecl 12, Eberron: Five Nations
Contemplative 5, ecl 15, Complete Divine
Scorpion Heritor 5, ecl 10, Sandstorm - only against scorpion poisons
Warforged, race, Eberron & Monster Manual 3
Necrocarnum Mantle, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum
Fiend Blooded 10, ecl 15, Heroes of Horror
Justice of Weald and Woe 10, ecl 16, FR: Champions of Ruin
Buer, vestige, ecl 7, Tome of Magic
Serpent Slayer 3, ecl 9, FR: Serpent Kingdoms
Master of Vipers 1, ecl 10, FR: Serpent Kingdoms
Gatekeeper Mystagogue 3, ecl 8, Player's Guide to Eberron
Shadowcaster 15, Tome of Magic, sustaining shadow, see text
Child of Night 6, ecl 11, Tome of Magic, stacks with sustaining shadow, see text
Bone Knight 8, ecl 12, Eberron: Five Nations, plus other immunities
Seeker of the Song 4, ecl 14, Complete Arcane, all allies within 30', see text
Holt Warden 5, ecl 10, Complete Champion
Sanctified One 1 (Wee Jas), ecl 6, Complete Champion, for one minute per day
Vermin Keeper 3, ecl 8, FR: Underdark, organic poisons only
Pale Master 10, ecl 15, Libris Mortis
Haztaratain 7, ecl 12, Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona
Feast, domain, ???, against ingested diseases
Vow of the Spider Queen, feat, Drow of the Underdark
Demonbinder 7, ecl 12, Drow of the Underdark, even against magical poisons
Heart of Steel, warforged graft, Faiths of Eberron


Camouflage
Ranger 13
Druid 13, halfling substitution level, Races of the Wild, replaces Thousand Faces
Scout 8, natural terrain only
Highland Stalker 7, ecl 12, Complete Adventurer
Stonedeath Assassin 2, ECL 7, Races of Stone, only while underground and touching stone
Dark Hunter 4 (ECL 9) Complete Warrior, only by a stone wall/etc
Forest Reeve 4, ecl 9, Complete Champion, natural terrain


Special Mention
Ranger or Scout, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5, Tome of Battle, armored stealth




Sneak Attack

Sort of alphabetical, campaign settings books at the bottom of the post


Updated: 7 October 2007


PHB
Rogue 1, 3, 5, 7.../20


DMG
Arcane Trickster: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (full caster advancement)
Assassin: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 1, gain minor arcane casting)
Blackguard: 4, 7, 10/10 (gain divine casting at level 1, full BAB)


Psionic
Pionic Rogue: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19/20
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b


Book of Exalted Deeds
Slayer of Domiel: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Touch at level 1, gain divine casting at level 1)
Sacred Strike, feat, against evil creatures roll d8 for damage instead of d6


Book of Vile Darkness
Cancer Mage: 1, 5, 9/10
Disciple of Baalzebub: 2, 5, 8/10



Complete Warrior (all full BAB)
Dark Hunter: 3/5 (Death Attack at level 5)
Darkwood Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 10)
Invisible Blade: 1, 3, 5/5 ("dagger" only, faint as free action 1/round)
Justiciar: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (nonlethal strike)
Ronin: 1, 4, 7, 10/10


Complete Divine
Black Flame Zealot: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at 1, advances divine half)
Temple Raider of Olidammara: 2, 5, 8/10 (gain divine spells at level 1)


Complete Arcane



Complete Adventurer
Ninja: 1, 3, 5, 7.../20 (Sudden Strike)
Spellthief: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17/20 (gains arcane casting at level 4)
Daggerspell Mage: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances arcane 9/10)
Daggerspell Shaper: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 9/10)
Dread Pirate (dishonourable): 3, 7/10 (full BAB)
Ghost-Faced Killer: 2, 5, 8/10 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)
Nightsong Enforcer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Nightsong Infiltrator: 4, 8/10 (Teamwork Sneak Attack)
Shadowbane Inquisitor: 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Shadowbane Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 8/10)
Shadowmind: 2, 5, 8/10 (advances manifesting class 7/10)
Spymaster: 3, 6/7
Streetfighter: 3/5


Complete Psionic
Lurk: 2, 7, 12, 17/20 (psionic sneak attack, only functions while psionically focused)
Ebon Saint: 3/5 (sneak attack or psionic sneak attack)


Complete Mage
Unseen Seer 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; full arcane advancement)



Complete Scoundrel
Avenging Executioner: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, gain abilities to make opponent flatfooted)
Cloaked Dancer: 2, 4/5 (suprise strike, 3/5 arcane advancement)
Mountebank 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7, Complete Scoundrel
Psibond 3, 6, 9/10, ecl 8, Complete Scoundrel
Master of Masks 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6, only while wearing the Assassin Mask
spellwarp sniper 2, 4/5, ecl 8, (sudden raystrike, see text)


Complete Champion
Mythic Examplar (Dardallion): 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (early entry ecl 5, advances casting 4/10)


Deities and Demigods
Justiciar of Taiia: 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (gain minor divine spellcasting at level 1)


Draconomicon
Dragonstalker: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (gains 2d6 sneak attack each time, only effective against dragons, full BAB)


Dragon Magic:
Hand of the Winged Masters: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl ?? (sneak attack or sudden strike or skirmish)
Dragon Descendant 3 (subtle ancestor), ecl 8: gain 2d6, see text (also stacks for certain monk abilities)


Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells:
Hellbreaker 3, 6, 9/10 (can also steal spell-like or supernatural abilities)


Cityscape
Ebonmar Infiltrator: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7 (gain minor Int based arcane casting)


Dungeonscape


Frostburn


Heroes of Battle
Dread Commando: 1, 3, 5/5 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)


Libris Mortis


Lords of Madness


Magic of Incarnum
Umbral Disciple: 2, 5, 8/10


Miniatures Handbook
Skullclan Hunter: 3, 6, 9/10 (can "sneak attack" undead at level 2, read "Divine Strike" wording carefully, not actually sneak attack... I think)
Tactical Soldier: read "Flanker" ability


Planar Handbook
Fatemaker: 3, 6, 9/10 (gains minor Cha based arcane casting)


Races of Destiny
Chameleon: see text
Menacing Brute: 3/5 (full BAB)
Scar Enforcer: 3,6,9/10 (advance half caster)


Races of the Dragon
Dragon Devotee 2, 4/5, ecl 7, (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; advances sorcerer casting 2/5)


Races of Stone
Blade Bravo: 4, 8/10 (melee only, full BAB)
Stonedeath Assassin: 2, 4/5 (Stonedeath Strike at level 5)


Races of the Wild
Whisperknife: 2, 5, 8/10 (full BAB)


Sandstorm
Scorpion Heritor: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10
race: Marrulurk, small Monstrous Humanoid, 3 HD, +1 LA (ECL 4), 2d6 sneak attack


Stormwrack
Scarlet Corsair 2, 6, 10/10 (full BAB, faint as free action once per 2d4 or 1d4 rounds)


Tome of Battle:
Assassin's Stance, Shadow Hand Stance - gain 2d6 sneak attack


Tome of Magic:
Andromalius vestige - see text
Malphas vestige - see text (sudden strike)
Shadowblade 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (sudden strike, at level 3 gain ability to deny opponent their dex bonus)


Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Rogue 3: "Penetrating Strike" - exchange trapsense for the ability to do half you sneak attack damage against undead


Eberron Campaign Setting


Eberron: Five Nations
Dark Lantern: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10


Magic of Eberron
Vigilant Sentinal of Aerenal: 2, 4/5


Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik
Scorpion Wraith: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, full BAB)


Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona
Fist of Dal Quor: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, also gain stunning attacks)


Eberron: Faiths of Eberron
Thief of Life: 2, 6, 10/10



Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0)
The Divine Seeker: 2, 4/5
Guild Thief: 1, 3, 5/5


FR: Champions of Ruin
Justice of Weald and Woe: 3, 7/10 (death attack at level 10, gain minor diving casting)
Night Mask Deathbringer: 4, 8/10
Shade Hunter: 4, 8/10 (gain minor arcane casting)


FR: Unapproachable East
Thayan Slaver: 4, 7, 10/10


FR: Lords of Darkness
Darkmask: 3/5


FR: Lost Empires of Faerun
Cultists of the Shattered Peak: 2, 4/5 (Death Attack at level 5, gain minor arcane casting)
Magelord: 1, 5, 9/10 (full arcane advancement)


FR: Races of Faerun
Warsling Sniper: 1, 3, 5/6, ecl 6, warsling only


FR: Player's Guide to Faerun
Shadow Thief of Amn: 1, 3, 5/5
Zhentarim Spy: 2, 4/5


FR: Serpent Kingdoms
Fang of Sseth: 1, 4, 7, 10/10


FR: Shining South
Crinti Shadow Marauder: 2, 4/5 (Sudden Strike, gains a "Shadow Pounce" at level 5)


FR: Silver Marches
Orc Scout: 3/5
Peerless Archer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (ranged only)


FR: Underdark
Imaskari Vengeance Taker: 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (half arcane advancement)


FR: Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lloth: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (sudden strike, full BAB)
Eye of Lloth: 2, 5, 8/10 (half caster)


Also consider the Factotum or Psychic Rogue if you want to make a good assassin... http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

[Treblain]

If you want sneak attack and spells, be an Arcane Trickster. If you want poison use, take the Poison Master feat from Drow of the Underdark, which is Poison Use and more. If you want Hide in Plain Sight, take a level of Shadowdancer, take the Dark template, or take a level of warlock and use some tricks with the Darkness invocation.

That said, Assassin is a fun class, so if your DM will allow Avenger, go for it.

[lord pringle]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

...Is that a palette swap?

[Mando Knight]

...Is that a palette swap?
No. No it isn't. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlatantLies) It's completely new art commissioned expressly for the article.

Funny thing is, it reminds me of a somewhat newer somewhat-heroic assassin...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091221205758/assassinscreed/images/4/41/Ac2cover.jpg

[koboldish]

Uhh... I like playing skillmonkeys with lots of cool class ability's, so do I lose anything like that with arcane trickster?

[Black_Zawisza]

Uhh... I like playing skillmonkeys with lots of cool class ability's, so do I lose anything like that with arcane trickster?
I'd like to pop in to second the Factotum (Dungeonscape) and sell you on it. Tons of amazing class abilities. Eventually, you get
- Proficiency with simple and martial weapons, light armor, and shields
- A pool of Inspiration points that you use to power most of your abilities (resets every encounter!)
- Incredibly single-ability-dependent on INT: eventually, you're able to add your INT to attack rolls, damage rolls, AC, saves, STR and DEX checks, skills dependent on STR and DEX, skill checks once per skill per day.
- The Font of Inspiration feat http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606 greatly increases the amount of Inspiration you have. You should consider taking it. FoI becomes more powerful each time you take it, so take it as many times as you can (which is capped at your INT modifier; another reason to max it!)
- Spend Inspiration to get some sneak attack
- Trapfinding
- 6+INT skills per level, and every class skill in 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons. Every. One.
- You get prepared spellcasting. Very few spells per day, but hey, it's from the Sor/Wiz list, and you use spell-like abilities instead of spells, which means no arcane spell failure in armor!
- You can turn undead and heal 3+WIS times per day.
- At 8th level, you can spend Inspiration to get extra standard actions. This is one of the most powerful non-spellcasting class features in D&D.
- You can spend Inspiration to auto-bypass enemy Spell Resistance
- Once per day, if you take damage that would ordinarily kill you, you can spend Inspiration points to automatically ignore the damage.
- At 19th level, you can spend Inspiration points to emulate an 15th level or lower Extraordinary class feature of any class.

The only thing you don't get is Hide in Plain Sight, but you could either wait until you can get a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM, 10,800 gp and gain the Dark Creature template for 10 min a day [there's also a continuous version available for 22,000gp]: Hide in plain Sight, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft move speed, cold resistance 10, superior low light vision and darkvision 60 ft.) or you could ask your DM if you could apply the above Dark template for +1 LA. If all else fails, you could go with a one level Shadowdancer dip.

EDIT: If you choose to play a Factotum, here's an excellent handbook for it: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

[Snowbluff]

Your DM sounds like a hardass... just like mine. Barring Avenger, you could always take a one level dip into Shadowdancer for the HiPS. Slows sneak attack progression a bit, and you get no poison use (poison is rather useless by the way), but it's the next best thing.

Then you can make up the lost SA with generic classes SA options (Unearthed Arcana), or a dip into Sword Sage (Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords to some people).

There probably is ways of getting death attack some where. I don't know much about Rogue-Types beyond what I said, though.

[Curmudgeon]

If your setting is in the Forgotten Realms, it's worth taking a +1 level adjustment for the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152). That gives you almost the same Hide in Plain Sight that the Assassin gets; it just doesn't work in daylight-level illumination. Plus darkvision 60', superior low-light vision, cold resistance 10, +10' speed, and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.

[Swok]

Dark Creature also appears in Tome of Magic in the Shadow Magic chapter. In case the person has that instead of a Faerun book.

[Tvtyrant]

If you make a swift hunter Ranger, you can make it an Urban Ranger and get HiPS and Skirmish, which nets you two of your requests. It also gets plenty of skill points and with some more stuff switched quite powerful.

[Curmudgeon]

Dark Creature also appears in Tome of Magic in the Shadow Magic chapter. In case the person has that instead of a Faerun book.
That's a different template, which is not nearly as worthwhile. The Tome of Magic template's Hide in Plain Sight is Extraordinary and only removes the Hide "not being observed" requirement (while still not working in daylight); you still need to satisfy the cover/concealment Hide requirement. The Faerûn-only HiPS is Supernatural and also removes the cover/concealment requirement.

[Venger]

...Is that a palette swap?

yep, I can tell by the pixels and having seen a few swaps in my day.

[Psyren]

There is actually a "Good Assassin" in a sourcebook - the Slayer of Domiel from BoED.

Barring that, you can use the Psionic Assassin from Secrets of Sarlona. (Note this is different from the Psychic Assassin in Mind's Eye.)

Scratch that, the Psionic Assassin has the same prereqs as the the regular one.

[Feytalist]

Slayer of Domiel is pretty cool, but it has a silly Exalted feat requirement and a silly ability, namely death touch.

Still, sneak attack and spellcasting ain't half bad.

[Piggy Knowles]

Telflammar Shadowlord from Unapproachable East will give you a good portion of what the Assassin does, including death attacks, fun use of darkness, and Int-based casting, plus a whole lot more. And it's only "non-good", rather than explicitly evil.

My favorite Shadowlord build is:

Azurin, Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Cobra Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 8

...however, if Death Attack is a big deal for you, then I would take Telflammar Shadowlord up to level 6, and then finish it either with 6 levels of Swiftblade, or something else that progresses Death Attack. (If nothing else, Legacy Champion and/or Uncanny Trickster would work.)

(Azurin, Totemist and Umbral Disciple are all from Magic of Incarnum, if you need a source list.)

[NiteCyper]

If you want sneak attack and spells, be an Arcane Trickster. If you want poison use, take the Poison Master feat from Drow of the Underdark, which is Poison Use and more. If you want Hide in Plain Sight, take a level of Shadowdancer, take the Dark template, or take a level of warlock and use some tricks with the Darkness invocation.
The "some tricks" with the Darkness invocation that Treblain refers to is the Blend into Shadows feat in Drow of the Underdark (page 47).

Uhh... I like playing skillmonkeys with lots of cool class ability's, so do I lose anything like that with arcane trickster?
I warn you that the Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) lists the Arcane Trickster PrC as weakening the potential of your character. The Factotum base class in Dungeonscape (pages 14-20), is a "skillmonkey with lots of cool class ability's".

[FMArthur]

I warn you that the Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) lists the Arcane Trickster PrC as weakening the potential of your character.

That's because the expected entry for Arcane Trickster is a full caster/dip of something multiclass. Also recall that the Assassin class itself that he is aiming for is known to be fairly weak. Overall Arcane Trickster will be an improvement over Assassin.

...And I don't mean to be rude, but really how is listing a class's tier supposed to be useful information here? We do that too much. :smallconfused:

[Piggy Knowles]

Arcane Trickster's actually not too bad, especially now that classes like Unseen Seer make qualification easier.

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10 is a fine build, giving you +8d6 sneak attack, good skills, near perfect spellcasting, and Advanced Learning (use it to pick up Hunter's Eye for even crazier sneak attack). You could also swap it so that you have Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4, which drops your sneak attack to +6d6 but gives you more Advanced Learning and Divination Spell Power, and better skills.

If I were to make an assassin out of this, I'd play a human, and my first three feats would be Able Learner, Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation), and Master of Poisons. Use Psionic Minor Creation to make plant-based poisons, and apply them liberally.

Other feats I'd take down the road would include Master Spellthief, and from there I might do Arcane Thesis (Hunter's Eye) and perhaps look toward persisting it. Maybe Craven or Staggering Strike wouldn't hurt, but that's turning into a lot of feats. I'd also start looking for a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, which would take care of Hide in Plain Sight.

And here are sources, since you mentioned needing to show your DM the book for everything:
Spellthief - Complete Adventurer
Unseen Seer - Complete Mage
Able Learner - Races of Destiny
Hidden Talent - Expanded Psionics Handbook (p67, you won't find it in the regular list of feats)
Master of Poisons - Drow of the Underdark
Master Spellthief - Complete Scoundrel
Arcane Thesis - PHB2
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - Tome of Magic

[NiteCyper]

...And I don't mean to be rude, but really how is listing a class's tier supposed to be useful information here? We do that too much. :smallconfused:
Really how that listing a (prestige) class's tier is supposed to be useful information here is by information. Unfortunately for you, I trust tiers lists. One can be shocked to learn their perception's wrongness comparing to a more sophisticated entity (e.g., the Giant in the Playground forum). I state this as a defense for why I trust the tiers list. I assume it's a refined aggregate.
I think this Penny-Arcade comic (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/06) sums it up well. You may berate me for blindly taking an unverified commandment as gospel. Theretofore, nobody showed that a sophisticated aggregate lists the Arcane Trickster PrC as subpar. If I was the OP, I'd prefer to know. I'd be unhappy if I was encouraged to pursue suboptimum without knowing that it was suboptimal by people who knew otherwise.

[Piggy Knowles]

is Really how that listening a (prestige) class's tier supposed to be useful information here

It's the equivalent of "although I'm not an expert on the subject myself, having done little research on it and only knowing of it through hearsay, but it has been established that the Arcane Trickster is unoptimal". Unfortunately for you, I trust tiers lists. Commonly, one may come to believe in the power of such things but be shocked to learn that their perceptions were wrong when compared to a more advanced community's understanding. I think this Penny-Arcade comic (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/06) sums it up well. You may berate me for blindly taking an unverified commandment as gospel.

Eh, I have issues with the tier list for prestige classes. Most PrC's are way too dependent upon the form of entry to really properly say they go up or down a tier. (Adding Tempest probably isn't going to make a Fighter drop from Tier 5 to Tier 6, nor is adding Fatespinner going to suddenly make a sorcerer Tier 1.)

Anyhow, as FMArthur mentioned, the only reason Arcane Trickster is considered a "-1" prestige class is because theoretically you need to dilute your casting progression to enter it. Once you get in, it's all gravy. And other prestige classes, not to mention feats like Martial Study (Assassin's Stance), mean that you could play an Arcane Trickster without dropping a single caster level. Besides, even if a Wizard/AT was a tier 2 character (since Wizard starts it at T1), that's still better than an assassin, which is typically going to be tier 3.

[CTrees]

Eh, I have issues with the tier list for prestige classes. Most PrC's are way too dependent upon the form of entry to really properly say they go up or down a tier. (Adding Tempest probably isn't going to make a Fighter drop from Tier 5 to Tier 6, nor is adding Fatespinner going to suddenly make a sorcerer Tier 1.)

I agree. The main tier list works because it's assumption is ceteris paribus - everything, from wealth to optimization level, is assumed to be equal. This is very nearly impossible with prestige classes, for the same reason the base tier list does not address utility within a party.

That said, I love the arcane trickster. Wizard/Thief just appeals to me, the fluff is great, the synergy is nice, I love it (including with the addition of Spellwarp Sniper). Is it fantastic? Nope. Would I play one in a low- to mid-op game? Absolutely.

[NiteCyper]

Edit: I wasn't going to post this, but the forum decided to spit it back out an hour later.


Eh, I have issues with the tier list for prestige classes. Most PrC's are way too dependent upon the form of entry to really properly say they go up or down a tier. (Adding Tempest probably isn't going to make a Fighter drop from Tier 5 to Tier 6, nor is adding Fatespinner going to suddenly make a sorcerer Tier 1.)

Anyhow, as FMArthur mentioned, the only reason Arcane Trickster is considered a "-1" prestige class is because theoretically you need to dilute your casting progression to enter it. Once you get in, it's all gravy. And other prestige classes, not to mention feats like Martial Study (Assassin's Stance), mean that you could play an Arcane Trickster without dropping a single caster level. Besides, even if a Wizard/AT was a tier 2 character (since Wizard starts it at T1), that's still better than an assassin, which is typically going to be tier 3.
"I heard that the Arcane Trickster PrC is suboptimal?" If I was the OP, I'd have asked that, and now you answer the question that they didn't ask. It is a question they no longer have to pose. My wording is weird: I mean that I appreciate your guys' responses. I implicitly asked that question. I will keep your insights in mind.

@koboldish: To reiterate, what's being recommended by the Arcane Trickster PrC is to play an arcane spellcaster. Your potential will be much higher, the PrC empowers Assassin-like abilities, and you can continue to pursue being like an Assassin while being an arcane spellcaster by focusing on things like Assassin-like spells.


If your setting is in the Forgotten Realms, it's worth taking a +1 level adjustment for the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave (page 152). That gives you almost the same Hide in Plain Sight that the Assassin gets; it just doesn't work in daylight-level illumination. Plus darkvision 60', superior low-light vision, cold resistance 10, +10' speed, and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.
Curmudgeon: Revolutionizing 3.5E stealth come 2012.

[Coidzor]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Kind of sad that the designers thought that not having assassins be cackling baby-eaters was so stupid that it only could be thought of as an april fool's day gag though. :smallfrown:

[Curmudgeon]

The cackling and baby-eating are optional. Enjoying the killing itself, though, is required.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The cackling and baby-eating are optional. Enjoying the killing itself, though, is required.

Yeah, I hate that the assassin's guild you join (I hate that you have to join a guild, but that's minor compared to the alignment) accepts all contracts that pay suitably and are reasonably safe, whether the man you're supposed to kill is the BBEG or a powerful cleric of Heironeous.

[kpenguin]

The Assassin Prestige Class in the DMG isn't designed to model assassins in the usual sense. They're designed to model the Fraternity of Muwahaha Card-Carrying Supervillain Killers for Hire With Mystical Evil Power.

Thus the requirement to just kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

[CTrees]

Could be worse. Pathfinder has two assassin Prestige Classes, both of which require you to be evil.



EDIT: Long, rambling rant about the alignment restriction is unnecessary and unproductive. Suffice it to say, I can envision assassins which are full of character and at least lawful neutral, so the "evil" requirement bugs me.

[huttj509]

Kind of sad that the designers thought that not having assassins be cackling baby-eaters was so stupid that it only could be thought of as an april fool's day gag though. :smallfrown:


See, my interpretation of that was that it was a bit of snark at the idea that redescribing a prestige class, while keeping the mechanics exactly the same except for alignment, was taken by some to be such a big deal.

[Leon]

Take a couple of levels of Ranger, fill out the rest with Rogue.

Wear Stylish Black, have a code of conduct and charge large sums for your expertise.

[Coidzor]

The Assassin Prestige Class in the DMG isn't designed to model assassins in the usual sense. They're designed to model the Fraternity of Muwahaha Card-Carrying Supervillain Killers for Hire With Mystical Evil Power.

Thus the requirement to just kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

And thus shouldn't have really been genericized without actually being genericized.

Like, Red Wizards were successfully genericized from teh evulz to circle magic and further specialization.

[Agrippa]

The Assassin Prestige Class in the DMG isn't designed to model assassins in the usual sense. They're designed to model the Fraternity of Muwahaha Card-Carrying Supervillain Killers for Hire With Mystical Evil Power.

I don't see the assassin class as that at all. Even with the evil alignment restriction. I like to think of the normal evil Assassin's Guild as the Mystical Fraternity of Self-Righteous and Hypocritical Mob Hitmen. It's not for the Evil Lulz, it's for the Family. I'd also slightly alter the entry mission. I'd make it the kind of task that Don Vito or Tony Soprano would call for. Like killing a child molesting producer's favorite racing horse and sticking its head in bed with him.

[Feytalist]

It's been said before, and alluded to in this tread as well, but I'll just reiterate anyway: Assassin != assassin. The Assassin prestige class isn't the only way to model a killer for hire. It's the same as the old "Paladin class isn't the only holy warrior" argument.

An Unseen Seer would make a good assassin, I think. Perma-nondetection at level 5, sneak attack, full casting. With the right feat loadout, it could work very well indeed. Assassins aren't meant to enter toe-to-toe combat in any case.

[Kaeso]

Kind of sad that the designers thought that not having assassins be cackling baby-eaters was so stupid that it only could be thought of as an april fool's day gag though. :smallfrown:

Personally, I somewhat get the reasoning behind this. I assume the assassin class isn't supposed to represent your run of the mill assassin, like John Wilkes Booth (USA) or Balthazar Gerards (Netherlands), that one day desides to kill a public figure out of an ideology, because any class can do that.
The DnD assassin is, IMHO, the fantasy equivalent of the hashashim, a cult of assassins that trains its followers purely to become great assassins and hires their services to the highest bidder. To be able to kill somebody you've never met and somebody who never did you (or anybody else) any harm, purely because there's money to be made, requires you to be quite evil. Of course, Assassins Creed throws this historical conception of the hashashim upside down :smallamused:.

[NiteCyper]

An Unseen Seer would make a good assassin, I think. Perma-nondetection at level 5.*Checks if it thwarts the Mindsight feat in Lords of Madness (page 126). :vaarsuvius:*

[Feytalist]

*Checks if it thwarts Mindsight in Lords of Madness (page 54). :vaarsuvius:*

Probably not.

But regardless, it's certainly no worse than the one on the Assassin's spell list.

[Venser]

I really like assassins because of their cool class abilities and because of the fluff, but my DM won't let me play an evil one or change the class to allow good assassins :smallmad: . Suggestions?

Slayer of Domiel(i guess that is the right name) from Book of Exalted Deeds is a good aligned version of assassin.

[CTrees]

Of course, Assassins Creed throws this historical conception of the hashashim upside down :smallamused:.

Assassin's Creed.

Historical accuracy.

...

...

Does not compute.

[NiteCyper]

Probably not.

But regardless, it's certainly no worse than the one on the Assassin's spell list.

The emoticon was meant to convey that indeed it doesn't thwart the Mindsight feat in Lords of Madness (page 126), by the RAW. :vaarsuvius:

[Kaeso]

Assassin's Creed.

Historical accuracy.

...

...

Does not compute.

I never said that game was historically accurate :smallwink:

[Psyren]

There are other classes without fluff restrictions that make fine assassins, imo. Shadow Hand Swordsage for instance, or Binder, or even Lurk.

[Coidzor]

There are other classes without fluff restrictions that make fine assassins, imo. Shadow Hand Swordsage for instance, or Binder, or even Lurk.

Well, that's some egg on my face. :smallredface: I always forget about Lurks. x.x Hadn't heard about Binders having the ability to fill that role before though, I must admit. What vestige(s) work that angle?

[Z3ro]

Assassin's Creed.

Historical accuracy.

...

...

Does not compute.

Anyone can write a book Mr. Miles CTrees. And they can put whatever they want on its pages. I even believe there is a book that claims the world was created in seven days... A best-seller too.