Team Fortress 2: How the HELL does one master the Spy class?

[Jeivar]

I've clocked almost ninety hours in Team Fortress 2, the majority of those as Sniper, Medic or Soldier. I've tried all the classes and I've gotten the hang of most of them . . . EXCEPT Spy. I suck at Spy-ing.

I have acquired the Dead Ringer and Your Eternal Reward upgrades, but I'm even less effective with those so I stick to the basic equipment.

Almost very time I try Spy I end up running around uselessly in disguise, trying to get behind enemy lines without seeming suspicious, failing, and getting blown to bits. When I DO succeed I backstab one person and then get blown to bits by his nearby teammates, or sap some buildings and get killed by the Engineer or backstab an Engineer and get blown away by his sentry gun before I can sap it.

Getting behind an isolated enemy seems to be purely a stroke a luck for me. And doing all the stealth and patient waiting for an opportunity seems a hell of a lot less efficient than just blasting away with a powerful weapon.
Overall, it seems like, say, Soldier is far better at racking up a body count and being useful to the team.

So, is Spy effectively useless against experienced players and large teams where players can watch each others backs, or am I doing something wrong?
Is it just a matter of many, many, MANY hours of trial and error and learning the exact moment one is statistically likely to survive backstabbing someone?

[Ranger Mattos]

Spy is one of the harder classes to learn, in my experience. You can't just run in and kill everything in sight, like with Pyro or Heavy. It takes time to become a good spy.

Unfortunately, I don't have much advise to share, as I'm not too good with Spy here. But there are many places you can read up on the subject (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Community_Spy_strategy).

[Mando Knight]

I'd recommend starting with sneak attack character (Scout, Backburner Pyro) to find the right paths of approach: there's almost always two or three to avoid total bottlenecking (CP 1-C of Dustbowl is a good stock map example of a bad bottleneck), and an underused one can let you slip behind enemy lines and get a couple of kills.

Spy isn't smash-and-grab unless you're using a Enforcer/Spycicle/Dead Ringer loadout, in which case you can skirmish a lot more.

The most effective Spies I've seen watch their enemies' patterns and strike quickly, then fade before they can get killed. Place your Sappers while on the move, and prepare your cloak as soon as you stab.

[Beleriphon]

The above advice is good. After futzing about with the spy I found that if you can sneak attack and then immediately cloak you can usually move far enough away to disguise again. Best disguise is usually the medic I find, only because players expect you to be behind them.

[Mando Knight]

Best disguise is usually the medic I find, only because players expect you to be behind them.
You need to act quickly if you're going to go disguising as a Medic, though. Everyone expects a Medic to heal all the time, so if you're near a bunch of other players and not healing, you'll be quick to find a flamethrower or fist in your face.

[NeoVid]

Even the greatest Spy relies massively on luck. It's almost impossible for a Spy to create situations where he can be effective like most of the other classes can, so you have to look for any likely opportunities and not worry too much when they go horribly wrong.

Important things to remember: The main thing you need to do to be effective is keep the other team from realizing there's a Spy at all. Disguise as a member of your own team when leaving spawn, cloak as much as possible, and assume no one will ever be fooled by your disguise.

Second thing: Go for backstabs when you see your victim is now focused on something in front of them.

[Green-Shirt Q]

It takes a lot of practice, a lot of experience, and a cerain nack for it. Spy is my best class, and has been since I began, but I wasn't always good at it. I spent most of my time at the bottom of the scoreboards until very recently usually ending up in the top 3.

Mostly it's observing people and noticing their patterns. I can rack up a lot of points simply by doing the same thing over and over again because people simply DO NOT LEARN. There's a lot of subtle things I don't even know how to describe, but eventually it sorta becomes innate.

Deadringer and Eternal Reward take a special kind of spying that even I can't really do. I prefer the Cloak And Dagger, The Spy-Cicle, and the default revolver (though I have been getting a lot of kills with the ambassador recently). The easiest is the defualt stuff, though.

Spies also require quick reflexes and reaction times, as well as the knowledge of when to give up and run away. It's a required skill to know when to ge the hell out of a bad situation and surprise your enemies with a completely different angle.

Mostly important, you have to observe your immediate surroundings. If you know a heavy or pyro are nearby, do not let them know you're a spy. If there's any other class, you don't have to worry as much, because spy is one of the fastest classes and you can easily avoid a lot of gunfire. You have to listen and look around before making your move.

[Edit] Being a slimy skumbag helps too. It kinda comes with the terriroty. Don't be afraid to act like a jerk to your enemy and take advantage of them. :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

If there's any other class, you don't have to worry as muchThis is misleading. If skill and latency are held equal (and it's best not to assume they're too much worse than you anyway), you should always be careful. Classes with shotguns can blow you away in a couple of hits at close range (especially Engineers: they usually notice you if you mess up the stab & sap), Demomen and Soldiers have primary weapons with very high damage with close-range direct hits (and if you aren't careful, you could be walking into a sticky trap and get instantly blown to pieces), and most melee weapons beat yours if you don't get the backstab.
because spy is one of the fastest classes and you can easily avoid a lot of gunfire.
You "only" have a 100% move rate, same as the Pyro, Sniper, and Engineer.

[Dogmantra]

You "only" have a 100% move rate, same as the Pyro, Sniper, and Engineer.

And in comp circles, 100% is the slowest moverate. Go go always rocket jumping everywhere.

[Green-Shirt Q]

This is misleading. If skill and latency are held equal (and it's best not to assume they're too much worse than you anyway), you should always be careful. Classes with shotguns can blow you away in a couple of hits at close range (especially Engineers: they usually notice you if you mess up the stab & sap), Demomen and Soldiers have primary weapons with very high damage with close-range direct hits (and if you aren't careful, you could be walking into a sticky trap and get instantly blown to pieces), and most melee weapons beat yours if you don't get the backstab.
You "only" have a 100% move rate, same as the Pyro, Sniper, and Engineer.

Okay, I admit I was wording it wrong. I forgot to explain some other stuff. :smallfrown:

If you see other classes, be careful about decloaking (as in, don't do it if they see you). If they are looking in another direction and are far away or moving somewhere else in a hurry, you can afford to be less cautious.

Other advice I forgot, always remember to try and be coming from a place the enemy expects a teammate to come from, like from spawn. A lot less suspicious then somebody coming from their enemy's side.

I tend to play a "High Risk-High Reward" spy, mostly in CTF. I have learned most of the behaviour patterns of most players in certain maps like 2fort, Turbine and Doublecross. I don't know if any of my tips work for any other mode of play, but I'd still recommend experimenting with your limits and learning what the patterns of your enemies are, so you can exploit them.

Spies are still good dodgers, despite only having 100% speed. They're skinny and manueverable. If you move unpredictably, you can avoid a lot of gunfire from a distance.

[MCerberus]

Don't use the dead ringer (tempting as it is) until you're good at sneaking. I don't mean running around cloaked, I mean the whole deception and ambush act. Once you have that down, the DR is a ticket to immortality.

The standard knife is generally considered your go-to with the other ones having massive drawbacks that get you killed.

The revolver is generally considered a personal choice. The regular one is good, the Enforcer is really good with the Dead Ringer, and the ambassador is deadly if you get some practice in (oh snipers, you never pay attention).

[Science Officer]

Here's how I learned to play spy:

1) Play every other class.
A bunch.
For the longest time I would not play spy, because I had know idea how to do it. Instead, I played other classes. Playing TF2 as other classes will make you familiar with the way they go about things. Then, when you are spy, you will understand better what your enemies will do. Getting familiar with maps helps as well.

2) Forget about disguises.
Disguising is a fine art. It can be very effective. It's also very difficult. Disguises should be your back-up plan, you shouldn't rely on it. Instead, just

3) Don't let anyone see you.
And I don't mean cloaking. Cloaking is nice, but it requires resources, you can still be shot/bumped into while cloaked, and you cannot stab while cloaked. If you stay out of enemies' FOVs, you will not likely have those detriments.

People do not have eyes on the back of their head, and so can only see forwards. This is a very simple fact with serious implications for FPSs. It's why flanking is useful for the scout. Being behind others is a much better means of remaining unseen than fooling them with disguises or walking past them with cloaking. It saves resources and is generally foolproof, when you can do it.
More on this topic:

People often say that the pyro is an ambush class. Especially with the Backburner, but just in general, the pyro wants to get to close quarters. But the pyro doesn't have (m)any fast movement abilities and is, in this regard, similar to its natural enemy, the spy. Imagine if you were a pyro. How would you get behind that big stupid heavy weapons guy on the point? If a pyro can do it without using cloaks or disguises, a spy can too.
If you can move around without others seeing you then you can

4)Be behind your enemies.
Your goal as spy is to always be behind enemies, all the time. I'll repeat that again: always be behind enemies, all the time. If you are behind your enemy then a) he can't see you b) you can backstab them. This is everything you want as a spy.

A good way to be behind enemies is to

5) Infiltrate enemy lines.
Through divers and deceitful means, endeavour to place yourself in the half of the map controlled by the enemy or associated with enemy spawnpoints. Getting into the enemy area alive and undiscovered is the hardest part of being a spy. Once you've done that, things are easier.
If you use disguises, they'll be more believable, as you'll be walking the right direction. Enemies might be less likely to expect opposition on their half of the map. But most of all, if you are behind enemy lines, they will be heading towards your half, and they will have their backs turned towards you.

But all this stabbing, isn't there something else you should be doing? No,

6)Forget about sentry nests.
At least while you're starting out. They are very tricky things. You'll probably die if you try to take one out. Leave them to ubers. You should be more use to your team alive.


Well, there you have it. Some of it might not be orthodox, but its what lead me from <1 hour play time as spy to pubbies on the server asking me for advice in less than a week.

Oh, and loadouts. Probably stick with the basic items while you're learning.


EDIT:

I don't mean running around cloaked, I mean the whole deception and ambush act.

This.

EDIT:EDIT:

And doing all the stealth and patient waiting for an opportunity seems a hell of a lot less efficient than just blasting away with a powerful weapon.

Don't be patiently waiting. If you are patiently waiting you are probably not helping your team. And don't worry about getting blown to bits after getting a backstab. Learning to escape takes practice. But if you can trade yourself for a high value target, it can very well be worth it.

[PallElendro]

One does not simply master the Spy Class.

[Green-Shirt Q]

One does not simply master the Spy Class.

YOU do not simply master the spy class.

I think those fellas at the top of the scoreboards with 355 points and a spy mask next to it beg to differ.

[Jeivar]

YOU do not simply master the spy class.

I think those fellas at the top of the scoreboards with 355 points and a spy mask next to it beg to differ.

I think that was a Lord of the Rings quote, meaning "it's not that easy".

[Thufir]

Yeah, except he left "into Mordor" off the end.

Also, Q, those Spies topping the scoreboards didn't simply master the Spy class either. Mastering Spy is not simple.

[Tengu_temp]

Spy is my class of choice, and it took me a lot of effort and frustration to learn how to play it at a decent level - especially since before that, I mostly played Heavy. There really is no shortcut that will let you not suck at spy until you get experienced with this class, unlike Soldier, Heavy or Demo.

Some hints:
Learn the habits of every class and try to act like them when disguised. From my experience, Engineer is usually the best one when you're scouting for targets, because they tend to run around looking for metal.
Don't act in a routine manner. People will notice and detecting you will be much easier.
Avoid Pyros, unless they're unaware of you're presence and you're going for a backstab. I mean presence, not the fact that you're a spy.
Dead Ringer isn't very useful when you don't know how to use it, but learning how to use it is not hard, and then it becomes awesome. It's my watch of choice.
Using Your Eternal Reward will get you killed if you're still learning. I still haven't mastered it, to be honest. I tend to just go with the good old reliable Knife.
Your gun is a matter of preference. If you're using Dead Ringer, though, there is no reason to use Revolver if you can use Enforcer instead, because Dead Ringer cancels its only penalty.

[Grif]

One more. Spies, if you see teleporters, you should prioritise them. Nothing slows a push more than destroyed teleporters. :smalltongue:

(Works for cp maps and RED on pl maps.)

[Mando Knight]

One more. Spies, if you see teleporters, you should prioritise them. Nothing slows a push more than destroyed teleporters. :smalltongue:

Offensive or defensive push, it doesn't matter. An Engineer's most important building is his teleporter. Not simply for himself (a good Engineer nest is nearby the exit so you can return to the nest more swiftly after death), but for the entire team to eliminate travel time to the front. Without allies, an Engineer is just a man with expensive toys.

[Geno9999]

Some hints:
Learn the habits of every class and try to act like them when disguised. From my experience, Engineer is usually the best one when you're scouting for targets, because they tend to run around looking for metal.
Don't act in a routine manner. People will notice and detecting you will be much easier.
Avoid Pyros, unless they're unaware of you're presence and you're going for a backstab. I mean presence, not the fact that you're a spy.
Dead Ringer isn't very useful when you don't know how to use it, but learning how to use it is not hard, and then it becomes awesome. It's my watch of choice.
Using Your Eternal Reward will get you killed if you're still learning. I still haven't mastered it, to be honest. I tend to just go with the good old reliable Knife.
Your gun is a matter of preference. If you're using Dead Ringer, though, there is no reason to use Revolver if you can use Enforcer instead, because Dead Ringer cancels its only penalty.

I use the Eternal Reward mostly for Chain-killing against people on Payload.
Another tip; keep a mental note of how close you are to your intended target. If you are too close, they'll hear you decloak and turn around to kill you.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Yeah, except he left "into Mordor" off the end.

Also, Q, those Spies topping the scoreboards didn't simply master the Spy class either. Mastering Spy is not simple.

Sorry. I thought he was saying that it was impossible, because he didn't give any other info. I misunderstood.

While it's certainly not an easy class to master, I do think it comes naturally to some people. While I was never always good at being the spy (nor would I be so pompous to call myself a master of the spy) it was always my best class.

Some people just take to the spy easier than others. It's all about attitude and playstyle as well. For example, I suck at Heavy and Pyro, even though everybody tells me those are the easiest classes. For me they're not. Spy is the easiest class for me. It just is. It's how I naturally play.

[Gaius Marius]

To master the Spy, you have to spy a Master.

[Jahkaivah]

Treayn could probably tell you a thing or two about Spy. Have Knife certainly could as well though I think he's been banned.

In the mean time here is my somewhat snarky and highly uninformed opinions about the upsides and downsides of the different Spy weapons:


Invisibility Watch:

Upside - It lets you turn invisible.

Downside - It doesn't let you turn invincible (use the Dead Ringer for that).


Butterfly Knife:

Upside - It's a pretty cool knife.

Downside - Hey I'm not going diss the cool knife.


Revolver:

Upside - It does everything the Enforcer does without making you feel guilty for using it.

Downside- It does everything the Enforcer does without the extra damage.


Ambassador:

Upside - It rewards you for being stealthy without needing to get right behind somebody. (Psst Spy needs more of these kind of weapons Valve)

Downside - Aiming is hard.


Cloak and Dagger:

Upside - It lets you be all sneaky and wait for the perfect opportunity to strike.

Downside - Being sneaky can be unproductive.


Dead Ringer:

Upside - Pushing the cart with the Dead Ringer out can get you a stupid amount of points.

Downside - A useful trick with the Dead Ringer is to start with a friendly disguise as it is less obvious that you were a dead ringer spy when it activates. This can cause embarrassing accidents where you forget to switch to an enemy disguise before dealing with the Sentry Gun.


L'Etranger:

Upside - It gives you silent decloak when used as part of the Saharan Spy set.

Downside - It doesn't give you silent decloak when it isn't used as part of the Saharan Spy set.


Your Eternal Reward:

Upside - Using the disguise kit can be fiddly, Your Eternal Reward removes it for you and gives you silent backstabs.

Downside - You can get silent backstabs with the Spycicle and not lose your freaking disguise kit.


Conniver's Kunai:

Upside - Lets you pretend you're a Naruto character.

Downside - Only 65 hp jesus freaking christ what the hell.


Big Earner:

Upside - It gives you 30% cloak for backstabbing people.

Downside - 25 less hp


Enforcer:

Upside - 20% extra damage.

Downside - Everyone will hate you.


Spycicle

Upside - 2 second protection from Pyros, silent backstab and pretty statues!

Downside - .....downside?

[Grif]

I use the Eternal Reward mostly for Chain-killing against people on Payload.
Another tip; keep a mental note of how close you are to your intended target. If you are too close, they'll hear you decloak and turn around to kill you.

On a related note, make a mental note of those who don't hear decloaks. :smallbiggrin: These should be your first targets, if you're feeling evil.

[Tengu_temp]

Pushing the cart with the Dead Ringer out can get you a stupid amount of points.

Hell yeah. I love doing that.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Treayn could probably tell you a thing or two about Spy. Have Knife certainly could as well though I think he's been banned.

In the mean time here is my somewhat snarky and highly uninformed opinions about the upsides and downsides of the different Spy weapons:


Invisibility Watch:

Upside - It lets you turn invisible.

Downside - It doesn't let you turn invincible (use the Dead Ringer for that).


Butterfly Knife:

Upside - It's a pretty cool knife.

Downside - Hey I'm not going diss the cool knife.


Revolver:

Upside - It does everything the Enforcer does without making you feel guilty for using it.

Downside- It does everything the Enforcer does without the extra damage.


Ambassador:

Upside - It rewards you for being stealthy without needing to get right behind somebody. (Psst Spy needs more of these kind of weapons Valve)

Downside - Aiming is hard.


Cloak and Dagger:

Upside - It lets you be all sneaky and wait for the perfect opportunity to strike.

Downside - Being sneaky can be unproductive.


Dead Ringer:

Upside - Pushing the cart with the Dead Ringer out can get you a stupid amount of points.

Downside - A useful trick with the Dead Ringer is to start with a friendly disguise as it is less obvious that you were a dead ringer spy when it activates. This can cause embarrassing accidents where you forget to switch to an enemy disguise before dealing with the Sentry Gun.


L'Etranger:

Upside - It gives you silent decloak when used as part of the Saharan Spy set.

Downside - It doesn't give you silent decloak when it isn't used as part of the Saharan Spy set.


Your Eternal Reward:

Upside - Using the disguise kit can be fiddly, Your Eternal Reward removes it for you and gives you silent backstabs.

Downside - You can get silent backstabs with the Spycicle and not lose your freaking disguise kit.


Conniver's Kunai:

Upside - Lets you pretend you're a Naruto character.

Downside - Only 65 hp jesus freaking christ what the hell.


Big Earner:

Upside - It gives you 30% cloak for backstabbing people.

Downside - 25 less hp


Enforcer:

Upside - 20% extra damage.

Downside - Everyone will hate you.


Spycicle

Upside - 2 second protection from Pyros, silent backstab and pretty statues!

Downside - .....downside?

You forgot Diamondback. And more importantly, Big Kill, Sharp Dresser, Enthusiast's Timepiece, Saxxy, and Wanga Prick! :smalltongue:

[Treayn]

Treayn could probably tell you a thing or two about Spy.

In the mean time here is my somewhat snarky and highly uninformed opinions about the upsides and downsides of the different Spy weapons:

Athiest is actually very well-informed about spy, despite not playing it.

I'll give you a few pointers. They might be over-exaggerated, but mostly what's written below is true:

How to be a fairly competent spy in pubs.

1) Stop trying to act sneaky.
- Pubbies are stupid.
- People talk about "advanced techniques" like 'stairstab', 'sidestab', 'quickstab', 'stab n' sap'. Don't listen to them. Your job as spy is to kill people quickly and efficiently. Don't give your stabs stupid names, 'stairstabs' are gimmicks, and the other stabs are just backstabs given a fancy name.

2) Don't use unlocks.
- Unlocks gimp you and teach you bad habits. Standard Invis watch and knife tend to be the best, I cannot stress this enough.
- Cloak and Dagger causes you to camp. Stop camping, and start moving and stabbing quickly. MCerberus explains it clearly below:


Over-caution is the bane of your team, which is why the Cloak and Dagger is so terrible. You're slow, you can't react to threats. Killing terrible sniper #875 and being alive is a lot worse than killing a charged medic in front of 3 sentries and waiting to respawn.

- Dead Ringer is one of the most badly designed watches in the game. "Hurp-Durp 90% damage reduction, let me walk into a rocket or minigun. Learn self-preservation, don't be or play like those bad spies.
- Enforcer is a stupid, broken unlock on spy. Two-shots all light classes on a class that's supposed to be stabbing instead of shooting.
- Spy-cicle is broken as well.


Now, onto actual playstyle. Tip #3 is rather important.

3) Line of Sight is what a spy uses to close the gap, not invis.
- Don't rely on disguises. DON'T RELY ON INVISIBILITY EITHER.
- Don't waste invis getting behind people. Just get behind them using odd paths, go over or under, from the sides. This is 80% of your movement as spy.
- When you get close, you might not be in the best position. Invis is used to quickly relocate into a better position. I usually only use 1/4 - 1/2 of my cloak bar to get into position, that's about only 2-4 secs. This is about 15% of spy movement.
- The other use of Invis is to quickly escape. No-brainer.
- The last 5% of spy-related movement is just nuances, like juking multiple people, catching up to people that are ahead of you, or minimizing splash damage when hit.


4) Stab people who are distracted, not unaware.
- People will turn around every so often to check for spies, especially in an conflict-empty area. Easier to stab when they're busy with enemies.
- If they're too busy fighting your ally soldier, they're too busy to turn around for you. That's when you go in.


I think that's enough for now.

[MCerberus]

Let's just be clear about one thing too: if you die, so what.

If you can kill the medic but their team kills you, do it.
Kritzed heavy, kill it, even with the rest of the team.
The engie's dead, but the rest of the enemies are watching the sentry, sap it.


Over-caution is the bane of your team, which is why the Cloak and Dagger is so terrible. You're slow, you can't react to threats. Killing terrible sniper #875 and being alive is a lot worse than killing a charged medic in front of 3 sentries and waiting to respawn.

[Phantom123]

I'd like to take one statement of Treayn's and present an alternate view; he says not to use unlocks. A more accurate wording (in my opinion), would be "Don't use unlocks until you're good with the defaults". I think Treayn could vouch for my spying skills with DR, though I must state that, like all spies who started when I did, I began spying before there WAS a DR, and before you could even get invis from metal.

New weapons have advantages based on play style. Treayn hates them because he's a crotchety old man lol. The fact is, I'm able to be (arguably, me and Treayn could probably agree) ridiculously offensive with my DR. I don't go invis, and I barely even disguise. I use it as a tanking object, not as a hiding trick. It means that, so long as I'm full, I will not die, and that helps instill considerable confidence (which translates into being a believable spy, when you ARE seen).

Strat for DR, btw: Be obvious as **** if you want to help. You can tank enemies, and distract the hell out of them. Nothing pisses off enemies more than spies, and none more than DR spies. Get a few kills, and when enemies begin hunting for you, drag them on a chase. You can kill someone can keep them out of the game for 20 seconds, or keep 3 people following you for a minute and a half. In the end, that's far more effective a use of your time, especially if you kill others in the interim by making regular twists back to spawn when you lose them.

[Mando Knight]

- People talk about "advanced techniques" like 'stairstab', 'sidestab', 'quickstab', 'stab n' sap'. Don't listen to them.
Stab & Sap isn't so much an advanced technique as it is a quick application of two basic ones in order to kill the Engineer and his Sentry with relatively minimal risk. You stab, switch to sapper, sap. Works best if the Engie's working from directly behind the Sentry. Simple enough to do it the other way around if you aren't confident you can sap the Sentry before it whips around and shoots you full of holes.

New weapons have advantages based on play style. Treayn hates them because he's a crotchety old man lol.
DR, Enforcer, and Spycicle are designed so poorly I don't know how the first has lasted so long without getting hammered into submission and how the other two were even approved. Then again, it's Valve.

[Jahkaivah]

You forgot Diamondback.

Whoops!

Diamondback:

Upside: It's like the Frontier Justice only you get the crits for destroying buildings with sappers.

Downside: It's like the Frontier Justice only you get the crits for destroying buildings with sappers.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Oh Zarquon, Spycicle and Enforcer are so OP.

Also as a spy, your disguise is only good for 3 things.

1.) Fooling idiots.
2.) Giving you a second before smart players spy check your face off.
3.) Stopping SGs from shooting you.

Number 3 is the only one that you should depend on.

[Treayn]

I'd like to take one statement of Treayn's and present an alternate view; he says not to use unlocks. A more accurate wording (in my opinion), would be "Don't use unlocks until you're good with the defaults". I think Treayn could vouch for my spying skills with DR, though I must state that, like all spies who started when I did, I began spying before there WAS a DR, and before you could even get invis from metal.

New weapons have advantages based on play style. Treayn hates them because he's a crotchety old man lol. The fact is, I'm able to be (arguably, me and Treayn could probably agree) ridiculously offensive with my DR. I don't go invis, and I barely even disguise. I use it as a tanking object, not as a hiding trick. It means that, so long as I'm full, I will not die, and that helps instill considerable confidence (which translates into being a believable spy, when you ARE seen).

I started spying way back in 2007, back when the backstab animation was 10x worse.

The issue is that every spy I see that plays now uses the DR, whether they're good or bad is irrelevant, it is usually a crutch for them because they don't need to worry about health.

To put it simply, Yes, tank 1-2 rockets of pipes. You should not be able to tank 6 stickies, whole clips of pipes and rockets, constant backstabs, or 5 axtinguisher hits from Alterform or Atheist, that is ridiculous.

Damage reduction is a broken mechanic in this game. It's broken on the Fists of Steel and Phlogistinator, and very unfun/poor design on the part of DR and Charge n' Targe.

I've no problem with faking death, just the damage reduction. DR would be a lot better designed if it was 2 out of 6 secs cloak with damage reduction, and afterwards 4 secs normal invis. Change/Remove the load decloak sound to compensate.

[Phantom123]

I started spying way back in 2007, back when the backstab animation was 10x worse.

The issue is that every spy I see that plays now uses the DR, whether they're good or bad is irrelevant, it is usually a crutch for them because they don't need to worry about health.

To put it simply, Yes, tank 1-2 rockets of pipes. You should not be able to tank 6 stickies, whole clips of pipes and rockets, constant backstabs, or 5 axtinguisher hits from Alterform or Atheist, that is ridiculous.

Damage reduction is a broken mechanic in this game. It's broken on the Fists of Steel and Phlogistinator, and very unfun/poor design on the part of DR and Charge n' Targe.

I've no problem with faking death, just the damage reduction. DR would be a lot better designed if it was 2 out of 6 secs cloak with damage reduction, and afterwards 4 secs normal invis. Change/Remove the load decloak sound to compensate.

Same thing. Remember "quick stabs". Lol, every time I go to SHaFT with it's nocrits, I feel like I'm back in 2007, trying to avoid the animation so I can stab faster.

DR is, for lack of better purposes, not a believable item. Losing the damage reduction kills it. It IS a tanking item; no one ever believes the glitchy deaths that look bad. It's an item that says, for 6 seconds, I can go where I want. In 6 seconds, I can usually reach health or more metal, and that's what I use it for. That's the blue. It gives you security, at the price of some independence. I never need metal with normal watch spy, since you never USE it all. For DR, you do that all the time. You get 6 seconds to basically bolt, and if they follow you, it's over.

[Mando Knight]

Whoops!

Diamondback:

Upside: It's like the Frontier Justice only you get the crits for destroying buildings with sappers.

Downside: It's like the Frontier Justice only you get the crits for destroying buildings with sappers.

It's more like the Frontier Justice and Ambassador's forbidden lovechild, really.

[Treayn]

DR is, for lack of better purposes, not a believable item. Losing the damage reduction kills it. It IS a tanking item; no one ever believes the glitchy deaths that look bad. It's an item that says, for 6 seconds, I can go where I want. In 6 seconds, I can usually reach health or more metal, and that's what I use it for. That's the blue. It gives you security, at the price of some independence. I never need metal with normal watch spy, since you never USE it all. For DR, you do that all the time. You get 6 seconds to basically bolt, and if they follow you, it's over.

DR doesn't have to be believable. You don't need 6 secs of damage reduction, 2-3 is enough. 2-3 seconds of damage reduction will allow you to tank all sudden incoming damage and juke all chasers.

After 2-3 seconds, if you're not well out of the firefight by then, you've either done something wrong, or your pursuers actually have a brain.

You say 6 seconds to go wherever you want, I say it's an unlock that allows spies to overextend far too much and not get punished for it.

[Jahkaivah]

I think death feigns would have worked better as a minor bonus aspect of a watch unlock instead of being key to it's functionality.

If for example the Dead Ringer worked like the regular Invisibility Watch, but when you cloak there is a short fraction of a second delay before you start to turn invisible.

If you get attacked by at least a certain amount of damage (like maybe 40-50) during this delay your death feign triggers causing you to drop the corpse and turn invisible instantly, along with maybe some damage resistance and immunity to damage revealing where you are for a couple of seconds.

The advantage of this is that feigning death would require timing with an enemy attack strong enough to trigger it, as a result feign deaths would only happen occasionally instead of all the time improving your chances of tricking the enemy into thinking you really died. And allowing you to function as a regular spy instead of having to run into the enemy trying to pass off as a suicidal pacifist.

[Banjoman42]

You have to remember as well that a spy is a sort of slow life class, like engineer or medic, where lives last a long time with few points until you truly get the hang of it or find a good situation to be in. It might take you a while to get the first kill in a life, but it will speed up. Don't always zero in on a single target; sometimes its better to just forget about the guy you can't backstab and go for an easier target.