The Balanced Group

[bloodtide]

This came up yet again last night.

I got a semi-new group together and we started to make characters to be ready to play within the next hour. Until the balance problem came up. And that is players absolutely insisting that the party must be balanced. That is the group must have 'one of each character class', one tank fighter, one band aid cleric, one archer, one sneaky rogue, one controller mage and so forth.

As DM, I don't care how the group is made up and what each player wants to be, your free to pick any race and class and such.

The problem started almost as soon as they started making characters and no one was a cleric. This quickly got into an argument that 'someone' must be a cleric. Though, no one volunteered and wanted to change their character, so they had no cleric. This then descended into nitpicking, the wizard did not pick 'cool' enough spells, the dwarf did not optimize his damage and so forth. I stayed mostly out of it, except to say 'anyone can make there character they way they want too' and there is 'no rule that forces a wizard to take grease'.

So a little over an hour later the adventure starts: a simple haunted castle outside of town. And then it gets worse. Most of the group (3 player) run and refuse to fight anything as they 'fear they will die with no cleric to heal'. They also constantly complain to players 4 and 5 'bros you should have been a cleric'. And other such comments on each persons character, back and forth from all the players.

I try to keep the game focused-''What feat he picked does not matter, what do you want to do about the zombie dogs by the gate''. But everyone mostly wants to complain about the whole unbalanced party.

Now, as an Old School DM, I don't care about this so called balance at all. I think a group can be any mix of characters. But most of the players absolutely were brainwashed into the idea that you must have a 'fair and balanced' party.

So where does everyone else stand on this, must you absolutely have a balanced party or not?

[ahenobarbi]

Well now I'm playing a barbarian and the res of the party are ranger and an aristocrat... Honestly you don't need cleric not to die. You can use items to heal. You can make heal checks and retreat. You can hire a cleric.

Also in many systems you don't get as quick and effective healing like as in d&d (and believe me it's not like everybody dies there on every session...).

And if all of none of them wants to be a cleric and all of them are afraid to go without "healer" they cant get wand of cure light wounds, right?

[Xynphos]

Belt of Healing, 750GP, best cleric substitute ever.

[sreservoir]

if you adventure for at least two weeks, eternal wands of CLW as soon as you can afford them without caring too much about the cost.

[Urpriest]

At higher levels you need a pretty decent suite of spells to deal with things. At lower levels it doesn't matter as much. Besides, your problem is out of game, not in-game: your players are bullying eachother. Tell them not to. Remind them that D&D is a game for nerds, i.e. people who want to avoid being bullied. Leave the hostile social situations for sports teams.

Edit: Also, if they insist that they're unable to risk anything without a healer, let them find a healing wand. It may be a little more treasure than you want them to have right now, but since it's not making them more powerful as much as it's making them play the way you want them to it's not something to worry about.

[Medic!]

Citing R.A. Salvatore - The cleric is always the last guy to the table who says "Hey what do we need?"

Nothing in the D&D world infuriates me more than players dumping on eachother in a metagame fashion.

Something I press HEAVILY on the groups I DM for is that the players need to roll up characters they WANT to play and will ENJOY playing. I call it rule 0.5 - as long as the party is balanced power-wise with itself, I'll handle the rest. Everyone wants to play a cleric? Fine. Everyone wants to be a barbarian? No problem. Three paladins and a druid? Great! Eight monks? Easily done. The players just have to shake two mentalities: 1) It's not player vs. DM and 2) It's not a video game that you're trying to "beat."

When our parties have no trapfinder, the traps are either rare or detectable and defeatable through means other than Search and Disable Device. When there's no healing available wands, potions, and rest opportunities are more plentiful. Because they're human, groups take a lot of coaxing before they will trust their DM to not give them the shaft for deviating from the norm or for not "covering every base." If they're insisting on a cleric in the party and harrassing their fellow players at the table about it, my initial knee-jerk reaction is to set up a campaign, one-shot or otherwise, where clerics are nothing but priests with the Heal skill and there is no divine magic just to show them that it's not at all neccessary to have one in the party.

tl;dr: I would just take steps to reassure them that covering party roles isn't a big deal at all, and encourage them to play what they want to and let the setting adapt to their party make-up.

[Godskook]

New Rule: First player to say "dude, you should've played an X" must play what he just said someone else should play.

Party balance or no party balance, the total disrespect of hypocrisy when one player decides to take full advantage of freedom of choice followed by insisting that another player be completely deprived of it is something that irks me.

[dextercorvia]

So where does everyone else stand on this, must you absolutely have a balanced party or not?

I try to build a character that is everything I want for that game. If the other people can contribute something, then it is just bonus.

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest dropping a wand of CLWs or an eternal wand of the same, so they can get over their fears and play the game.

[Gavinfoxx]

A Player's Guide to (3.5) Healing (And, why you don't need a cleric to heal) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121.msg190442#msg190442)

Print that out and show it to everyone. Then, if they promise to not worry so damn much and actually engage with the adventure, they'll get some of the items mentioned in the guide.

[navar100]

I'm rather perturbed no one wants to play a cleric because they think the cleric is only a heal-bot. They know nothing of what a cleric can really do. Sure, a cleric doing some healing is fine and a good idea, but a cleric can do so much more in addition.

If I was in that game, I'd show them the Wrath of CoDzilla!

[hex0]

I suggest dropping a wand of CLWs or an eternal wand of the same, so they can get over their fears and play the game.

Or suggest that one of them play a Dragon Shaman with the Vigor Aura. Seriously if they are that worried about healing, passive healing might have them get over it.

Though a cleric would have been nice for turning undead as well...

[Gavinfoxx]

A balanced group would be something like:

Melee: Warblade
Skills: Factotum
Arcane: Beguiler
Divine: Shugenja

There you go. Balanced, both in the fact that it does all the 'traditional' roles, and that it is all Tier 3.

[Snowbluff]

A balanced group would be something like:

Melee: Warblade
Skills: Factotum
Arcane: Beguiler
Divine: Shugenja

There you go. Balanced, both in the fact that it does all the 'traditional' roles, and that it is all Tier 3.

Tier 3 gets my vote. It manages good variety and covers all of the bases without going into Batman Wizard territory or stepping on anyone's toes.

[Greenish]

Until the balance problem came up. And that is players absolutely insisting that the party must be balanced. That is the group must have 'one of each character class', one tank fighter, one band aid cleric, one archer, one sneaky rogue, one controller mage and so forth.Ah, so they want the party to be balanced like a diet is balanced, not like a game is balanced. :smalltongue:


Now, as an Old School DM, I don't care about this so called balance at all. I think a group can be any mix of characters.Wait, what? Isn't "fighter, thief, cleric, mage" the Old School style?

[hex0]

Melee: Warblade
Skills: Factotum
Arcane: Beguiler
Divine: Shugenja


Actually Beguiler would be a decent skill-monkey too. I'd probably change it to Dread Necromancer. I guess a Warmage/Wizard/Ultimate Magus (no early entry) that focused on blasting would still end up around tier 3. Come to think of it, Trickster Spellthief is probably tier 3 as well so that could swap for Facotum.

[Slipperychicken]

New Rule: First player to say "dude, you should've played an X" must play what he just said someone else should play.


+1 to this. If you see a role unfilled, be responsible and fill it yourself.

Helpful Thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226899) Ideas include an at-will item of CLW (a real bargain at only 2k), Martial Stance(Martial Spirit), Crusader, Factotum, Binder...

[Godskook]

A balanced group would be something like:

Melee: Warblade
Skills: Factotum
Arcane: Beguiler
Divine: Shugenja

There you go. Balanced, both in the fact that it does all the 'traditional' roles, and that it is all Tier 3.

Shugenja is Tier 2, at least last I heard, and its got enough druid/cleric spells that I have a hard time believing it drops any lower.

The rest are 'standard' tier 3, though, so one tier 2 isn't going to shake the waters too much, assuming equal levels of optimization.

[hex0]

Shugenja is Tier 2, at least last I heard, and its got enough druid/cleric spells that I have a hard time believing it drops any lower.


There isn't a divine class that gets 9th in tier 3? Just wildshape Ranger is in there...

Can we mod a divine class with 9ths into tier 3? A gestalt Paladin/Healer? That might work.

[Fouredged Sword]

When my parties descend into this silliness I have a NPC named Whisledorf, the halfling bard, esquire.

He is a bard with healing hynm who happens to be the same level as the party. He follows them around for a while and tells them not to worry, that he will heal them when they get hurt.

He tosses a CLW or two around and then disappears when they need him most. They see his hat of disguise fall off to show him to be a kobold bard just as he leaves them laughing at their misfortune.

By the time they fight their way our of the dungeon without a "healer" they have the confidence they need to go adventuring.

Really, really funny the look on their faces when they catch on.

They will never trust a DMPC again.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are both Shaman and Shugenja Tier 2? I thought both were possibly Tier 3, and only Shaman was possibly Tier 2?

[Urpriest]

Are both Shaman and Shugenja Tier 2? I thought both were possibly Tier 3, and only Shaman was possibly Tier 2?

Shaman is definitely Tier 1 or 2, since it's got the full Druid list. Shugenja is a trickier case, and I usually hear Tier 3 given how limited their spell list is. But they may be Tier 3 in the same sense people call Wilder Tier 3: punitively limited, but still functionally Tier 2.

Edit: Looking over the Shugenja's list, I don't see anything that would break them above Tier 3. They've got enough Divination to be obnoxious, and the Teleport line, but that's about it.

[Godskook]

There isn't a divine class that gets 9th in tier 3? Just wildshape Ranger is in there...

Can we mod a divine class with 9ths into tier 3? A gestalt Paladin/Healer? That might work.

Healer's only fault is being a class that can't contribute well enough till combat's over. Change that, and it'd probably hit tier 2+ as well.

[hex0]

Shaman is definitely Tier 1 or 2, since it's got the full Druid list. Shugenja is a trickier case, and I usually hear Tier 3 given how limited their spell list is. But they may be Tier 3 in the same sense people call Wilder Tier 3: punitively limited, but still functionally Tier 2.

I'd probably put Shugenja at the bottom of Tier 2, myself.

[navar100]

A balanced group would be something like:

Melee: Warblade
Skills: Factotum
Arcane: Beguiler
Divine: Shugenja

There you go. Balanced, both in the fact that it does all the 'traditional' roles, and that it is all Tier 3.

Oh please, not another Tier 3 Gospel. The issue has nothing to do with tiers but that no one wanted to play the "healer".

Tier 3 is not the be all end all of playing the game.

[INoKnowNames]

New Rule: First player to say "dude, you should've played an X" must play what he just said someone else should play.

I -love- hearing smart responces like this that would indeed force at least some type of lesson in players. I understand this sort of issue in other strategy games and mmos and such. This rule sounds epic.

Note to self: keep an eye out for Godskook. You can learn from him.

As for the origonal post, convincing them that a Cleric is capable of doing much more than simply being the healer, or reminding them of the plenty of ways you can accomplish healing without a class that's skilled at it, might turn a few heads. Although so long as everyone's playing something they like, the Dm conpensating for any "lack" of a role in a party would be fine.

[sonofzeal]

Healer's only fault is being a class that can't contribute well enough till combat's over. Change that, and it'd probably hit tier 2+ as well.
I played one in a lvl 5-7 game.

Trolls are a fairly high-damage example of CR 5. Heck, I used them in my infamous Druid thread as a prime example of why meleeing with low AC is suicide. But a lvl 5 Healer who's made appropriate investments can heal about as much in a turn as a Troll is likely to do on a full-attack.

Side-note: We had two houserules that helped make this easier, but weren't strictly necessary. Namely, casting was based off Cha instead of Wis to help reduce MAD. Second, the Healer could spontaneously cast the Cure/Heal line as a Cleric of her level. Neither increased the potential healing ability, just made it more accessible.

The term I like to use is "retroactively deny them actions". The monster deals hp damage? Cure Serious, and it's like they never had that action. The evil Cleric casts Ray of Enfeeblement? Lesser Vigor, and it's like I prevented them from casting in the first place. By level 7 I could dismiss just about every sort of penalty or negative status effect in the game.

It's still a poorly-designed class for a number of reasons, and I would never put it as Tier 2. But I think it's a lot closer to T3 than most people realize. Houserules certainly help... but a Healer with decent Cha and "Augment Healing" can keep pace with monster damage surprisingly well, and is probably effectively T4.

[Leon]

No class is a required class, some just make things easier and the Cleric is the prime candidate for making everything easier for the whole group.

Healing is a important aspect of what it can do but some of the best buff spells are in the clerics list and if the enemy cant hurt you then there is less need to focus on healing.

[Vortling]

New Rule: First player to say "dude, you should've played an X" must play what he just said someone else should play.

Party balance or no party balance, the total disrespect of hypocrisy when one player decides to take full advantage of freedom of choice followed by insisting that another player be completely deprived of it is something that irks me.

I am saving this as the appropriate response to the contained attitude. I myself have DM'd parties composed entirely of beatsticks. Adjustments had to be made both for me and the players but the games were awesomer for it.

[Hirax]

I recently joined a game at level 7, and it was requested that I be a healer. I picked factotum and it's worked out fabulously.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I refuse to game with people who treat each other like that. Hell, I refuse to do anything with people like that, unless it's something they don't want me to.

[Morph Bark]

In one of our current campaigns, we have a level 1 (now 2) group of Shugenja (Water, so healer), Druid, Factotum (me), Dragon Shaman and Paladin. Summoning spells and polymorph are banned and Tier 1 and 2 classes may not have Flaws.

Then our Shugenja, who was complaining that he needed to heal the Paladin throughout the entire fight to keep him alive, gets an eternal wand of cure light wounds as a reward for a mission and he proceeds to sell it so he can buy stuff for his family, even though half the members can work and provide for themselves.

[Socratov]

I recently joined a game at level 7, and it was requested that I be a [insert partyrole]. I picked factotum and it's worked out fabulously.

fixed that for you :smallwink:

anyway, on topic: I think forcing someone to stat up another character (the healer this time) isn't what you want to tdo unless the **** has really hit the fan... What I fear is that noone want to play the healer because they think that being the healer you can't do anything else and you will basically be the bitch of the party, running around giving heals. And everyone wants to be the star in doing damage/trapfinding etc. Be careful, you are probably dealing with a few classic spotlight hoggers.

What I'm interested in is the party composition. i.e. what classes are played? I think then the playground can really start giving hints.

[kardar233]

The fact that Wizards are taking Grease seems to suggest enough system mastery to recognize that AoE control is the way to play, which is incongruous with the insistence on a healer cleric.

[Godskook]

In one of our current campaigns, we have a level 1 (now 2) group of Shugenja (Water, so healer), Druid, Factotum (me), Dragon Shaman and Paladin. Summoning spells and polymorph are banned and Tier 1 and 2 classes may not have Flaws.

Then our Shugenja, who was complaining that he needed to heal the Paladin throughout the entire fight to keep him alive, gets an eternal wand of cure light wounds as a reward for a mission and he proceeds to sell it so he can buy stuff for his family, even though half the members can work and provide for themselves.

While useful long-term, an Eternal wand is *GARBAGE* at per-day healing. If I complained to you about how hard surgery was, I'd be even *ANGRIER* if you thought band-aids were somehow going to make it easier.

Finally, why the hell did you guys give it to a Shugenja? They can't cast eternal wands. Hell, even finding one with a normally divine spell is odd, but that's at least, I think, doable by RAW.

[dextercorvia]

TPK, and new plan. Everyone rolls a cleric.

[Metahuman1]

Two thoughts Crossed my mind.

1: Show them a set of four Cleric builds that can handle all the "roles", that all get Divine Meta Magic: Persist, and that all Persist Vigor spells and channel positive energy. No need for a healer as everyone has spells they can dump into healing themselves and all day fast healing to boot. And Clerics make great General Spell casters, Warriors, with the right variants Skill Monkey's, and Archers (Even though this one is strictly unnecessarily in 3.5 D&D owing to how Bad Ranged attacking is.). Have them run those builds and talk them through the mechanics for a couple of sessions till they build the habits they need up. You have five Players? Now you have two of one of those rolls.

2: Have them get an NPC quest giver who uses the Healer class, straight class, all 20 levels. Have her also have a special ability of getting "Visions", which is how she always knows where to send them for quests. Then have her follow them around and cast healing spells. Maybe give it the ability to put the DMM persisted Vigor trick on the rest of the party to help with out of combat healing.

Then tell them out of character to cut the crap.

[sreservoir]

While useful long-term, an Eternal wand is *GARBAGE* at per-day healing. If I complained to you about how hard surgery was, I'd be even *ANGRIER* if you thought band-aids were somehow going to make it easier.

Finally, why the hell did you guys give it to a Shugenja? They can't cast eternal wands. Hell, even finding one with a normally divine spell is odd, but that's at least, I think, doable by RAW.

bard CLW, but otherwise yeah.

loads of minor schemata, on the other hand...

[Seharvepernfan]

Just tell them straight up that they'll be fine without a cleric if they quit bitching about it and work together. No need to get fancy.

[Greenish]

Just tell them straight up that they'll be fine without a cleric if they quit bitching about it and work together. No need to get fancy.Of course, then they run in all the different directions alone and blame you when they die. "You said we'd be fine, damnit!"

[Metahuman1]

Of course, then they run in all the different directions alone and blame you when they die. "You said we'd be fine, damnit!"

Hence my suggestion of making them all play different builds that do the same thing as the classic classes for those jobs. Yay Tier 1 classes.

Or of just giving them an NPC who's only able to heal and give quests pertaining to the over all story. They still have to dig a bit for the side quests.

[Alienist]

TPK, and new plan. Everyone rolls a cleric.

LOL

If they complain allow them to choose any base class with divine spells.
Except everyone has to pick a different one.

You'd get a pally, Cleric, Druid, factotum, archivist...

Make sure there's a rule about not using healing on other players (unless below 0 hit points).

The biggest problem with healing is that people look at it wrong. However they do have a point. Consider the healer vs troll example. If the healer locks down the troll, then their healing might as well be 1 round duration hold monster spells.

There are two problems - 1 that action economy isn't in your favour, - 2 it consumes caster resources whereas the troll can keep attacking all day (but of course while you have it locked down your team mates are obliterating it) and - 3 that people undervalue keeping other team mates alive. In spell equivalencies, if the party warblade is on 5 hit points, and I cast cure critical wounds on him, then effectively I just cast "summon warblade" - and that's a spell most people would cast all day long if they could. In that case I'm winning the action economy game so long as my trade-off of 1 of my actions secures 2 or more rounds of fighting from the Warblade.

Another way to beat the action economy game as a healer would be to give healers access to a feat such as battle blessing (cast all healing spells as swift actions).

[Greenish]

If they complain allow them to choose any base class with divine spells.
Except everyone has to pick a different one.

You'd get a pally, Cleric, Druid, factotum, archivist...Factotum isn't divine. Anyway, they'd be better of with the clerics, more than likely.

[Tyndmyr]

This came up yet again last night.

I got a semi-new group together and we started to make characters to be ready to play within the next hour. Until the balance problem came up. And that is players absolutely insisting that the party must be balanced. That is the group must have 'one of each character class', one tank fighter, one band aid cleric, one archer, one sneaky rogue, one controller mage and so forth.

As DM, I don't care how the group is made up and what each player wants to be, your free to pick any race and class and such.

The problem started almost as soon as they started making characters and no one was a cleric. This quickly got into an argument that 'someone' must be a cleric. Though, no one volunteered and wanted to change their character, so they had no cleric.

Meh. Nobody has to be a cleric. More of my parties end up without one than vice versa. The correct response, IMO, is as follows:
1. Nobody is required to be a cleric.
2. If you really want a cleric, shut up and roll a cleric. Don't force others to roll a cleric.


This then descended into nitpicking, the wizard did not pick 'cool' enough spells, the dwarf did not optimize his damage and so forth. I stayed mostly out of it, except to say 'anyone can make there character they way they want too' and there is 'no rule that forces a wizard to take grease'.

Advise is fine, but can be taken too far. Your actions were fine.


So a little over an hour later the adventure starts: a simple haunted castle outside of town. And then it gets worse. Most of the group (3 player) run and refuse to fight anything as they 'fear they will die with no cleric to heal'. They also constantly complain to players 4 and 5 'bros you should have been a cleric'. And other such comments on each persons character, back and forth from all the players.

Give xp only to those who participate in combat. Have NPCs comment disappointingly on their lack of heroism.


I try to keep the game focused-''What feat he picked does not matter, what do you want to do about the zombie dogs by the gate''. But everyone mostly wants to complain about the whole unbalanced party.

Now, as an Old School DM, I don't care about this so called balance at all. I think a group can be any mix of characters. But most of the players absolutely were brainwashed into the idea that you must have a 'fair and balanced' party.

So where does everyone else stand on this, must you absolutely have a balanced party or not?

Balance is overrated. Working together is the important bit.

The problem with the wizard displacing the melee guy isn't an optimization problem...it's basically never optimal to ignore the potential help of your buddy. The problem with that wizard is that he isn't working with others.

Also, my groups give pretty wide latitude to players chars. The player makes the char, and he decides what he wants to make. So long as he's working with the party, nobody cares about the tier of his class or the exact feat choice. Advice is fine, but after the fact nagging should be limited.

Alternate idea to solve the issue: have each player create a small party of chars. I've played this way before, and it's...surprisingly manageable at level 1. 24 PCs on the board, and combat was still fairly snappy. Note that this makes combat feel very different, and may not work for all plots, but it's an interesting option if PCs feel they really must have x, y and z.

[Helldog]

The biggest problem with healing is that people look at it wrong. However they do have a point. Consider the healer vs troll example. If the healer locks down the troll, then their healing might as well be 1 round duration hold monster spells.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0077.gif

[Razanir]

I'm rather perturbed no one wants to play a cleric because they think the cleric is only a heal-bot. They know nothing of what a cleric can really do. Sure, a cleric doing some healing is fine and a good idea, but a cleric can do so much more in addition.

This isn't so relevant, but if you're playing gestalt, Cleric//Monk is awesome. We have one in my group, and one time he used Fury of Blows to punch an ogre and cast inflict light wounds then punch the wizard and cast cure light wounds. The ogre died and the wizard net gained 2 hp.

Also, about the "cool spells" thing, IT DOESN'T MATTER. My group's wizard normally uses one of two spells- Shocking Grasp or Flaming Sphere. To be frank, I let him not pick his spells at first and fill his starting spells in as we go along, and the only spells we know he has are those two, Scorching Ray, and of course every level 0.

[Greenish]

This isn't so relevant, but if you're playing gestalt, Cleric//Monk is awesome. We have one in my group, and one time he used Fury of Blows to punch an ogre and cast inflict light wounds then punch the wizard and cast cure light wounds. The ogre died and the wizard net gained 2 hp.Why did he punch the wizard (and why didn't he choose to deal non-lethal)?

[sreservoir]

This isn't so relevant, but if you're playing gestalt, Cleric//Monk is awesome. We have one in my group, and one time he used Fury of Blows to punch an ogre and cast inflict light wounds then punch the wizard and cast cure light wounds. The ogre died and the wizard net gained 2 hp.

Also, about the "cool spells" thing, IT DOESN'T MATTER. My group's wizard normally uses one of two spells- Shocking Grasp or Flaming Sphere. To be frank, I let him not pick his spells at first and fill his starting spells in as we go along, and the only spells we know he has are those two, Scorching Ray, and of course every level 0.

... er, holding the charge on a touch spell doesn't work that way. you can only hold one.

[Metahuman1]

... er, holding the charge on a touch spell doesn't work that way. you can only hold one.

I seem to recall there's a way or two to have more then one touch spell going at a time.

[Greenish]

I seem to recall there's a way or two to have more then one touch spell going at a time."Spell Flower" (or something like that) spell from SC.

[hex0]

Factotum isn't divine. Anyway, they'd be better of with the clerics, more than likely.

Factotum's Spontaneous Piety is actually a decent source of healing. If you use Owl's Wisdom as one of your 'spells' you'll get a good amount of use out of it. And you can still be a Factotum at the same time which is always fun.

[Razanir]

... er, holding the charge on a touch spell doesn't work that way. you can only hold one.

My bad. We're still relatively new, so that one's my fault.


Why did he punch the wizard (and why didn't he choose to deal non-lethal)?

1) He punched the wizard so he could heal him and damage the monster in one attack
2) Like I said, new-ish players. Although you have to admit, the lethal damage makes the scene funnier

[Morph Bark]

While useful long-term, an Eternal wand is *GARBAGE* at per-day healing. If I complained to you about how hard surgery was, I'd be even *ANGRIER* if you thought band-aids were somehow going to make it easier.

Finally, why the hell did you guys give it to a Shugenja? They can't cast eternal wands. Hell, even finding one with a normally divine spell is odd, but that's at least, I think, doable by RAW.

First off, an eternal wand of CLW might be crappy, but it's better than nothing as in this case, especially at 1st level.

I dunno where eternal wands are normally from, but you seem to imply they're arcane only (in which case Bards get CLW). Otherwise, it could just be a custom item, yanno. So either it would go to him or the Druid, who could cast it safely, or it would go to me with my UMD of +3, meaning I would only succeed on a 17+.

Also, the metaphor doesn't really work here since DnD has its magic band-aids that auto-stabilize. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

1) He punched the wizard so he could heal him and damage the monster in one attackFor future reference, casters will survive even if you don't allow them to use each attack in a full attack to cast a separate spell. :smallwink:


2) Like I said, new-ish players. Although you have to admit, the lethal damage makes the scene funnierI'm not sure what difference the type of damage has to the fact that healing by punching people in the face is hilarious. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Oh please, not another Tier 3 Gospel. The issue has nothing to do with tiers but that no one wanted to play the "healer".

Tier 3 is not the be all end all of playing the game.

You've got to admit it's the sweet spot though. Powerful enough not to be crippled, weak enough to still be challenged, and there's a ton of diversity at that layer (A Totemist, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, and Binder are all great at melee, yet each one fights completely differently from one another.)

[Alienist]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0077.gif

Indeed

You will note the monsters get bored and give up before team cleric runs out of spells - hence my point about action advantage (which is similar to the 'best defense is a good offense' school of thought. But not quite as narrow and dogmatic.

[navar100]

You've got to admit it's the sweet spot though. Powerful enough not to be crippled, weak enough to still be challenged, and there's a ton of diversity at that layer (A Totemist, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, and Binder are all great at melee, yet each one fights completely differently from one another.)

No, it's not the sweet spot. Maybe for you, but that's not universal. Blasphemous as it must be for you to hear, but there do exist actual real playing groups that have wizards, druids, and clerics in the same party as fighters, rogues, and monks and everyone gets along just fine with equal spotlight time, moments to shine, and just plain having fun.

Raises hand for my group, going on ten years now, including second campaign when I played the Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell cleric, and that was way back when Persistent Spell was only +4 levels. Barbarian/War Mind, Fighter, and Rogue fought right along side me, well, Rogue flanking. Rogue especially loved my "breakfasts", i.e. Extend Heroes' Feast.

It got switched to +6 levels by RAW in the middle of the campaign but DM allowed it to remain +4 levels since that was what I was using for a long time already, and no one was complaining.

[Garwain]

When creating my character from lvl1, I rolled high numbers, and imeadiatly called dips on the cleric. Sure there was some healing in the low levels, but there is nothing my cleric can't do. Sometimes it's hard not to outshine the others. A cleric is powerfull enough in it's own right.

Let me share this situation: lvl 3 party, round room, exit in the center, and everyone is chasing an invisible bard. But the cleric? nono, you stand in the center for heals and block the exit. Fine by me. I start Nimbus of Light. A couple of rounds later they find the bard, pin him down but cant hit him. I discharge the nimbus, roll high, insta-kill. Haha.... Good times. Run my errands, slaves of mine!

[Psyren]

No, it's not the sweet spot. Maybe for you, but that's not universal. Blasphemous as it must be for you to hear, but there do exist actual real playing groups that have wizards, druids, and clerics in the same party as fighters, rogues, and monks and everyone gets along just fine with equal spotlight time, moments to shine, and just plain having fun.

Relax, relax, I'm not at all saying the other tiers are "bad" to play. :smallsmile:

Rather, T3 is simply the tier that relies the least on a combination of player and DM restraint to keep the game together, given standard WBL guidelines.

Below 3, the DM needs restraint, lest he accidentally face the party with challenges that they either cannot, or have great difficulty, overcoming (e.g. rogue in an undead-heavy campaign.)

Above 3, the players need restraint, lest they trivialize the campaign by surmounting challenges in unintended or unforeseen ways. Scry-and-die, walking through the dungeon walls, nuking the BBEG's stronghold from orbit, chain-gating solars, that sort of thing.

Your group has that restraint, and that's a great thing and should be commended. But not all groups do, or some do but lose it at a key moment or when pressured (which can be a pivotal moment for the campaign.)

[Aotrs Commander]

As a DM, I expect my players to be able to cover all the bases with a party (which in our groups is usually six to eight characters, so they have no excuses!)

Clerics are a good recommendation in my groups (as we found with that party with only a druid, the bugger is sometimes the non-hit point healing, which isn't so easy to replicate with items without trying a bit harder), but if you have access to plenty of equipment (e.g. Wand of Lesser Vigour) their requirement to be band-aids drops somewhat. (Regular in-combat healing is generally not worth it until higher levels, we found - until I boosted the power of the Cure (and the Inflict) spells to make them heal something closer to comparable damage to what is dealt out by damaging spells and perhaps a bit more. Now, when the bad guys cast Inflict Critical Wounds, the PCs actually cringe...)

However, at least one of my campaign worlds doesn't have access to magic items as a matter of course (everyone get a set progression of level-based bonuses instead), so having access to divine spellcasting is rather more important there. It's not that I would prevent a party from playing without some vital bits, but if we're playing a module in particular, I won't show any mercy if they run into something they can't fix.

(When writing, say, my day quests, I tend to be a little more lenient, since I can tailor it a bit better, but sometimes - like the party that was a psion, a psywar, an ardent, a warlock, a duskblade and a unicorn dragon shaman - it rather limits my opitions! In the the aforementioned case, the party is rather short of spellcasting, outdoors skills and detection, not too mention diplomacy! The only migitating grace is that they are mostly a combat unit in an army, but I had to make one of their low-ranking flunkies class into something to cover the latter deficiencies...!)



I myself am a bit sick of playing clerics, partly because my last two 3.5 characters (and one of my only two 4E characters) have been clerics or in the cleric mould1 - but mostly because I'm primary dungeon master and we've been running converted AD&D modules and those bastards are full of clerics! But I do expect everyone to take a turn at cleric every now and again, same as I expect everyone to take a turn at party funds person (well, except those players that we don't trust to do the job...!) And I've done mine for a bit, now!




Relax, relax, I'm not at all saying the other tiers are "bad" to play. :smallsmile:

Above 3, the players need restraint, lest they trivialize the campaign by surmounting challenges in unintended or unforeseen ways. Scry-and-die, walking through the dungeon walls, nuking the BBEG's stronghold from orbit, chain-gating solars, that sort of thing.

Of course, an oft-missed point is that with a DM who tends never to use monsters for serious battles and tends to use character classes instead, like me (and who likes playing with rules), it merely invites the DM to do the exact same thing back to the players...

(I work on the basis, whatever horrible combo the player thinks up, unless it's really unique, someone else in the world thought of it first - and if it's so good they use it all the time because it's so much better than anything else, it becomes a standard operational build/procedure for all of the numerous spellcaster enemies the PCs will run into (see: Holy Trinity plus Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, which is a standard part of the load-out, along with Dispel, for my NPC clerics.) What's good for the goose...)



1One was a Cleric/Monk with spells reflavoured to Naruto-style jutsu (so I could shout, with depressing conviction "Believe it!" because I am Evil, after all...) and the second was an Archivist, because I was so sick of NPC clerics by that point! (And nobody had had an archivist before). Both characters tend or will tend to rely on Lesser Vigour wands (or jars of healing salve in the case of the former...) for hit point healing, and the ninja carries a stock of reflavoured scrolls for other stuff.