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Souhiro
2012-01-08, 02:37 PM
Hello folks!

My players asked me to going to Azererak's, "downgrading" their 3P characters into AD&D ones for the challenge, and altough I tried to warn them that it is a killer module, and that the 3šEd books were printed with the blood of all the poor PCs that died there, they insisted.

So I got the module, and read it.



The main thing is that the module looks to me to be too "Wizard-Centered". Fighters are only spected to shield the rest of the party at the many floor and door traps, while most of the plot is advanced via spells. I don't have the module at hand now, but most of traps, doors and else say things like "Only an spell of 'x' will trigger the effect".


But my party is too Fighter-centered: A fighter, a summoner ("downgraded" as a roge with a magical companion) and a druid. And most of the spells needed to advance are Arcane Spells!


What should I do? Just let them to die, and advice them to make wizards?

It even said that a fighter only could hurt Acererak with a Vorpal Blade (Explorers just needs Vorpal, +5 or slashers, and Paladins can use even a +4) but in the whole tomb, there is only a +4 blade.

I'm not saying that the module is hard, is just that a fighter can't plan DO it! He could only get into the throne room, get the treasure and get out of there before Acererak wakes!

Mastikator
2012-01-08, 02:50 PM
Replace the magic spells with magic items found elsewhere in the tomb.

Anxe
2012-01-08, 03:04 PM
They'll die, but that's kind of the point. They're not going in expecting to win. I'd let them die with the party they've made.

Ashtagon
2012-01-08, 03:18 PM
You don't play Tomb of Horrors with the intention of winning.

SowZ
2012-01-08, 03:24 PM
If they get to a room and can't pass it because they don't have the spells so they turn around and manage to leave... They are lucky.

Coidzor
2012-01-08, 03:43 PM
You know, the first character to beat the Tomb of Horrors was a Fighter.

Might be familiar with him, name of Robilar. He followed the Zap Brannigan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eowPka21BNc) school of leadership. Believe he became a Lord after that.

EagleWiz
2012-01-08, 03:45 PM
What should I do? Just let them to die, and advice them to make wizards?


It's the tomb of horrors. Wizards or not, they are doomed.

Warlawk
2012-01-08, 04:24 PM
If they get to a room and can't pass it because they don't have the spells so they turn around and manage to leave... They are lucky.

Depends on your point of view, that's not a terribly interesting gaming session.

Coidzor
2012-01-08, 04:47 PM
If this is the oldest version, IIRC, there's some stuff that's structural that can just be looted for a net win that, as editions went by and the module was updated, gradually got taken out after players pushed their limits.

Either that or those things all got taken out after Gygax personally ran people through it.

SowZ
2012-01-08, 05:31 PM
If this is the oldest version, IIRC, there's some stuff that's structural that can just be looted for a net win that, as editions went by and the module was updated, gradually got taken out after players pushed their limits.

Either that or those things all got taken out after Gygax personally ran people through it.

Always steal the doors!!!

Souhiro
2012-01-08, 06:02 PM
If they get to a room and can't pass it because they don't have the spells so they turn around and manage to leave... They are lucky.

That's the point: if they cannot advance, there is... Some places that can be only opened with the help of the True Vision Gem. If the players manage to get it (that is hard and counter-intuitive to do) it has only 10 charges. If the fighter expent it all, he can only turn around, and go back to his house. "Yeah, I went there, but I cannot advance anymore. It required a True Vision Spell, and you know... fighter."


That's the point: a Non-wizard can reach a point of no-advance... and a point of boring.

Dead_Jester
2012-01-08, 07:18 PM
If the fact that you don't have an arcane caster is the problem, I'd recommend placing items to solve the problems in other parts of the tomb, or modifying the existing ones (in the case of the gem, you could always give them a way to recharge it, albeit a very difficult/horribly dangerous method is preferable). Although this goes against the ancient and immutable design of the module, you could also modify some of the problematic spots to let your PC at least have a chance at traversing the tomb.

The other option, and probably the more classical one, is to leave the module unchanged, but to let the players learn from their experience when they inevitably get murdered (I have never seen a group of first timers survive the entire tomb with all their starting characters).

SowZ
2012-01-08, 08:06 PM
That's the point: if they cannot advance, there is... Some places that can be only opened with the help of the True Vision Gem. If the players manage to get it (that is hard and counter-intuitive to do) it has only 10 charges. If the fighter expent it all, he can only turn around, and go back to his house. "Yeah, I went there, but I cannot advance anymore. It required a True Vision Spell, and you know... fighter."


That's the point: a Non-wizard can reach a point of no-advance... and a point of boring.

I've actually never run the tomb. I would love to try it some day. I think I would be so paranoid that I would spend for hours per room and spend 10,000 gold on inane, mundane crap in case I can think of how to use it to test every thing before I walk on/touch it. Lots of small animals on leashes to everywhere and mirrors under doors.

Sidmen
2012-01-08, 11:39 PM
and mirrors under doors.

Sorry, I couldn't help but think "bad idea, lasers reflect in mirrors - you'll be blinded" after reading this.. So, be warned...

Anxe
2012-01-09, 01:27 AM
Also you'll be horrified when you look in the mirrors and realize what the tomb has done to you.

horseboy
2012-01-09, 02:22 AM
I converted the 3.5 version to Earthdawn. It's not really that horrible. The biggest problems are actually how "thief" centric it is. Letting everybody roll for traps helps with that. My party has cleared roughly half and the "Must have X spell" hasn't come up. Though they haven't made it to the false crypt or the hall of pillars.

Blacky the Blackball
2012-01-09, 06:44 AM
The Tomb of Horrors is mostly hype.

Sure, it's a dangerous adventure, but the main problem with it is that it has such a reputation that DMs approach it with the assumption that if it doesn't kill everyone then they're doing it wrong.

Consequently, it ends up being DMed as a frustrating mass of pixel-bitching and just plain unfairness.

If you actually run it in a reasonable manner and be fair to the players then it is a lot less deadly than it's made out to be.

I've run three different groups through the Tomb (two in AD&D and one in 4e), and while we've had a few deaths - but nothing that a Raise Dead won't cure - all three groups have completed it and killed Acererack.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 06:53 AM
A Fighter can be useful...
...there are a couple monsters that a sword will deal with, saving the wizard precious spells I suppose...
...but that final fight against Acererak, leaves mundane melees pretty much useless...

...a fighter who puts a bunch of his skills in trap detection is far more useful than a typical one...

Tyndmyr
2012-01-09, 09:46 AM
Hello folks!

My players asked me to going to Azererak's, "downgrading" their 3P characters into AD&D ones for the challenge, and altough I tried to warn them that it is a killer module, and that the 3šEd books were printed with the blood of all the poor PCs that died there, they insisted.

So I got the module, and read it.



The main thing is that the module looks to me to be too "Wizard-Centered". Fighters are only spected to shield the rest of the party at the many floor and door traps, while most of the plot is advanced via spells. I don't have the module at hand now, but most of traps, doors and else say things like "Only an spell of 'x' will trigger the effect".


But my party is too Fighter-centered: A fighter, a summoner ("downgraded" as a roge with a magical companion) and a druid. And most of the spells needed to advance are Arcane Spells!


What should I do? Just let them to die, and advice them to make wizards?

It even said that a fighter only could hurt Acererak with a Vorpal Blade (Explorers just needs Vorpal, +5 or slashers, and Paladins can use even a +4) but in the whole tomb, there is only a +4 blade.

I'm not saying that the module is hard, is just that a fighter can't plan DO it! He could only get into the throne room, get the treasure and get out of there before Acererak wakes!


Well, it's not JUST that it's wizard centered...it's also pretty rogue centered. You NEED a reliable way of dealing with traps and things, but a fighter...eh. You have to be really creative to be relevant. There's just not a lot of straight combat in it.


The Tomb of Horrors is mostly hype.

Sure, it's a dangerous adventure, but the main problem with it is that it has such a reputation that DMs approach it with the assumption that if it doesn't kill everyone then they're doing it wrong.

Consequently, it ends up being DMed as a frustrating mass of pixel-bitching and just plain unfairness.

If you actually run it in a reasonable manner and be fair to the players then it is a lot less deadly than it's made out to be.

I've run three different groups through the Tomb (two in AD&D and one in 4e), and while we've had a few deaths - but nothing that a Raise Dead won't cure - all three groups have completed it and killed Acererack.

Also this. It's a module that will happily kill off the careless or sloppy, but if run carefully and cautiously, it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be.