[PF] Undead Apocalypse - How to handle clerics and paladins?

[harpy]

I've always wanted to do an undead apocalypse type of campaign, where the overall theme and backdrop is a land overrun with undead. What's always held me back though is how, if undead are so pervasive in the campaign, what prevents a group of players from just stacking up the party with clerics and paladins, and I guess rangers, and then just rolling over encounters with all of the advantages those classes have with undead. If a bunch of clerics can just pump out positive energy bombs or turn undead turn after turn, it'll make for very uninteresting encounters.

Have people come up with ways of dealing with this in their own games? I'm trying to aim for 50% of all encounters involving undead. The end goal is to be able to do a fantasy zombie apocalypse, but with all the other undead trimmings mixed in, and so there really needs to be a frequencies to undead.

[sreservoir]

if you have enough undead, they'll run out!

[Bhaakon]

How many paladins and clerics do you think there are, maybe two or three for every hundred normal people? Most of them will be low enough level that their undead-killing skills are lacking, and the dead outnumber the living by orders of magnitude.

[zlefin]

lots of evil clerics to bolster undead;
lots of desecrated ground.
Maybe a few custom spells to make undead resistant to positive energy.

[Solaris]

"Busy signal" or "Call cannot be completed as dialed". Find out why.

[CTrees]

(addressing shadows and wights, as their spawn creation allows for some of the easiest undead apocalypses)

-High powered clerics and paladins aren't overly common.
-Against a population where the vast majority of people are first or second level commoners, shadows and wights will kill very quickly, increasing their numbers on a rapid, exponential curve.
-If that growth curve can outpace the resources of the clerics, paladins, and other adventurers? That's one (un)dead world.
-Shadows and Wights are both naturally stealthy, and wights especially are intelligent predators - ambushes and other advanced tactics are not beyond them. Neither Paladins nor Clerics have Perception as a class skill - they're fighting undead, yes, but the matchup isn't nearly as optimal as it would be against, say, zombies or skeletons.

[harpy]

Ah, yeah, this isn't about how to explain the world. It's about having, say... two clerics and a paladin and a ranger in a six person party. How do you make the campaign challenging when you've got so many resources pouring in to take on a specific type of creature?

If you have six encounters per day, and three of those will be undead, that means the two clerics alone can easily just spam positive energy every round through most of those encounters. Then add in the paladin and ranger who are also well equipped to take out undead and it becomes a roll over.

[Coidzor]

Ah, yeah, this isn't about how to explain the world. It's about having, say... two clerics and a paladin and a ranger in a six person party. How do you make the campaign challenging when you've got so many resources pouring in to take on a specific type of creature?

If you have six encounters per day, and three of those will be undead, that means the two clerics alone can easily just spam positive energy every round through most of those encounters. Then add in the paladin and ranger who are also well equipped to take out undead and it becomes a roll over.

Stronger undead, undead supported by non-undead factors, such as terrain.

Or have a couple of encounters where turning just results in the undead fleeing and bringing another encounter into the area while they're mopping up the first. A few times of that and they'll learn they have to think tactically in addition to turning, adding an additional element of challenge there.

[Akisa]

Neither Paladins nor Clerics have Perception as a class skill - they're fighting undead, yes, but the matchup isn't nearly as optimal as it would be against, say, zombies or skeletons.

While neither have perception as a class skill it doesn't really mater. You can still invest 1 skill point per hd even if it's a cross class resulting only in a minus 3. And for clerics who tend to have high wisdom bonus anyway they'll tend to still have a high bonus.

[SowZ]

Here is a solution...

What would be fun, I think, is if everyone started out as a level one NPC class with the elite array and start out at the beginning of the apocalypse. Assuming they survive, they become more BA by virtue of being one of the few survivors and the second level they take is in something cool but still mundane, (non-spellcasting Ranger, Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Monk are all they can pick.)

They would need to find the resources before they take other classes. If they find a church that still exists maybe then they can become a Paladin or Cleric or Paladin by getting a bit of training and swearing an oath. They can maybe become a mage only if they find a surviving wizard and convince him to give them the training.

This would be more of a horror tone, but coul still retain a fantasy feel.

[Vanzanze]

I like the "commoner" levels idea, but one thing I've found is to make the question one that's uncertain.

There are specifically types of undead who can, and often do, pass for living creatures until it is far too late. I would suggest making the game a total "question of doubt" kind of thing, where the party doesn't know if/when someone is going to turn on them. That keeps the horror aspect as well.

Furthermore, undead don't have to be straight-from-book varieties. Have fun stacking levels on a ghast or a wight. Play with what clerics-turned-vampires might be like. Start getting creative with how some of these transformations work - does someone bitten by a zombie convert overnight, or does it take days for the disease to fester?

Another fun idea is to spontaneously either cut the source of holy power, especially if the character isn't behaving in a way their deity would want them to do, or have some kind of vision/curse that afflicts each one differently ... the evil gods taking their toll, or impending apocalyptic visions of the world of undead. Good RP flavor, and a way to keep their abilities from facerolling your whole endeavor.

Or, you could be really cheap and limit the number of PCs' class options.

[Riverdance]

Another option is to make the campaign setting itself more friendly towards melee characters over casters than a traditional fantasy would be. Perhaps steampunk or something else that lends itself to shotguns and machetes.

I also like the idea of starting them as NPC classes.

[Wookie-ranger]

Here is a solution...

What would be fun, I think, is if everyone started out as a level one NPC class with the elite array and start out at the beginning of the apocalypse. Assuming they survive, they become more BA by virtue of being one of the few survivors and the second level they take is in something cool but still mundane, (non-spellcasting Ranger, Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Monk are all they can pick.)

They would need to find the resources before they take other classes. If they find a church that still exists maybe then they can become a Paladin or Cleric or Paladin by getting a bit of training and swearing an oath. They can maybe become a mage only if they find a surviving wizard and convince him to give them the training.

This would be more of a horror tone, but coul still retain a fantasy feel.


OK, i love that idea! i so want to run that campaign now! that would be some much fun to play.
It would also be very easy to control what classes the players take, if the Players cannot find a teacher or something they simply cannot get that class.
to build on that idea; what is your players need to train or pray at their church to gain levels, but when they arrive they find that the trainer has been killed/kidnapped and the church burned down and the holy altar symbol stolen.
This would include a lot or railroading the players and many are not cool with that. personally, if the story would be well written and i could still chose most other things i would be fine with it.



There are specifically types of undead who can, and often do, pass for living creatures until it is far too late. I would suggest making the game a total "question of doubt" kind of thing, where the party doesn't know if/when someone is going to turn on them. That keeps the horror aspect as well.


to build on that; what if the NPC wizard/cleric that appears to be helping them turns out to be Dread Necromancer that is just trying to get rid of the competition? would the players let him help (as in the enemy of my enemy if my friend)? what would the paladins in the group think about this?

what if the DN offers to train on or more of the PCs? would they be able to stay on course and continue vanquish the undead or be slowly corrupted by the dark gifts? how would the normal town folk (the few remaining inside fortifications) think about the PCs if they find out about them using 'dark magic'? would they cast them out? would they try to kill them? what would happen if some evil force offers to help them get rid of the unappreciative people for a small 'favor'?
there is a great of potential for iconic role playing!

[Vanzanze]

to build on that; what if the NPC wizard/cleric that appears to be helping them turns out to be Dread Necromancer that is just trying to get rid of the competition? would the players let him help (as in the enemy of my enemy if my friend)? what would the paladins in the group think about this?

what if the DN offers to train on or more of the PCs? would they be able to stay on course and continue vanquish the undead or be slowly corrupted by the dark gifts? how would the normal town folk (the few remaining inside fortifications) think about the PCs if they find out about them using 'dark magic'? would they cast them out? would they try to kill them? what would happen if some evil force offers to help them get rid of the unappreciative people for a small 'favor'?
there is a great of potential for iconic role playing!

Precisely. Now you're thinking with portals!

[peacenlove]

PF turn undead now relies on the undead to have low will saves for full effectiveness. Their good will save, abundance of feats to improve it (via HD) and turn resistance / average to good mental stats, will limit the effectiveness of these tactics.
Lastly consider raising their charisma via spells / elite array of stats and a class level, thus giving them a lot more hit points. In PF the undead no longer have hit points as a weakness.

If you draw upon 3rd edition material, there is a feat in fiendish codex 2 called Supernatural strike that allows an attack of opportunity vs a creature activating a supernatural ability (such as Turn undead / lay on hands). It only requires combat reflexes.