Bullywugs are a near perfect counter to the Vampire class

[DragonBaneDM]

So I built a Vampire NPC a few weeks back and got to use him last night. I actually enjoy the class, and my favorite part of it is how they use Healing Surges like an extra resource. Gambling away your vitality isn't the smartest thing in the world, but I sure find it interesting!

Anyway, I got to thinking today about how Vampires are kind of the worst class in the game at the moment, and that got me thinking of the worst monster: Bullywugs.

That led to this epiphany: Bullywugs absolutely WRECK Vampires. What little nova they manage is triggered by them spending Surges on their encounter powers. Rancid Air weakens anyone who spends a surge in the aura, halving what the Vampire is capable of!

Sooo if a player ever tries to play a Vampire demanding that they can make it decent, just throw a couple Bullywugs at them until they forfeit and make a new character!

[Vknight]

Yup and avengers and daggermasters love Bullywugs for there increased crit ability

[DragonBaneDM]

Yup and avengers and daggermasters love Bullywugs for there increased crit ability

"What's that, we're out of surges? TO THE BULLYWUG FARM!!!"

[MeeposFire]

So I built a Vampire NPC a few weeks back and got to use him last night. I actually enjoy the class, and my favorite part of it is how they use Healing Surges like an extra resource. Gambling away your vitality isn't the smartest thing in the world, but I sure find it interesting!

Anyway, I got to thinking today about how Vampires are kind of the worst class in the game at the moment, and that got me thinking of the worst monster: Bullywugs.

That led to this epiphany: Bullywugs absolutely WRECK Vampires. What little nova they manage is triggered by them spending Surges on their encounter powers. Rancid Air weakens anyone who spends a surge in the aura, halving what the Vampire is capable of!

Sooo if a player ever tries to play a Vampire demanding that they can make it decent, just throw a couple Bullywugs at them until they forfeit and make a new character!

Actually a smart vampire player will not have any encounter powers that use surges since they should trade that power in for something better if they can. In that case since vampires do not need to spend surges to heal they are then better against the bullywug.

Granted you can screw over many classes in the game. For instance if you want to screw over your fighter players (and many other defender classes) choose the monsters that can move and attack without provoking opportunity attacks without a shift. They can't do much at all and are thus nearly useless against those monsters. So really what are we trying to prove?

[Adoendithas]

Or against some Fighters you could send five waves of Minions who ignore the difficult terrain. Against a Wizard you could send a fast-moving solo with bonuses to saves. Et cetera ad infinitum.

[DragonBaneDM]

So really what are we trying to prove?

Worst monster in the game has a mechanic that makes it good against the worst class in the game, dat's all Meepz.

[INDYSTAR188]

I used Bullywugs when the PC's were 1st level. We had fun, they felt really cool for destroying the monsters so quickly, and I got to use some of their quirky powers. I combined them w/the lowest level beholder from MM2 (I forget the actual name of it but it's like level 5 or something) and it made a pretty interesting encounter. I think Bullywugs make really good cannon fodder and have a nice niche in the game.

[MeeposFire]

Worst monster in the game has a mechanic that makes it good against the worst class in the game, dat's all Meepz.

Except you are wrong on several counts.

1) Well made vampires do better against bullywogs than anybody else since they will not need to spend a surge on anything. At worst a typical vampire loses 2 dice of damage which is tiny and is less than the issues other characters will have since they have to spend surges to live where a vampire doesn't. Remember the character does not have to spend a surge with his encounter power and with bullywogs he just won't.

2. The vampire is not the worst class in the game. That distinction goes to either the assassin or the binder.

3. Not sure of your criteria but it would not surprise me if there was a worse monster than bullywogs.

[OracleofWuffing]

2. The vampire is not the worst class in the game. That distinction goes to either the assassin or the binder.
Okay, is there an "official" ruling on this, because I could have sworn that non-multiclassed non-hybrid Seeker was up there somewhere...

[DragonBaneDM]

Except you are wrong on several counts.

1) Well made vampires do better against bullywogs than anybody else since they will not need to spend a surge on anything. At worst a typical vampire loses 2 dice of damage which is tiny and is less than the issues other characters will have since they have to spend surges to live where a vampire doesn't. Remember the character does not have to spend a surge with his encounter power and with bullywogs he just won't.

2. The vampire is not the worst class in the game. That distinction goes to either the assassin or the binder.

3. Not sure of your criteria but it would not surprise me if there was a worse monster than bullywogs.

Congrats on taking a "look at this weird quirk I found" thread and overanalyzing the crap out of it! :smallbiggrin: You'd get along great with my DM up at school!

[Vknight]

Meepos gets a prize!
It's a fantastic cake just open the package!

This Cake is Great! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs)

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, I'd say the Binder is probably _the_ worst. Seeker vs Assassin is a lot more ambiguous but together they are definitely the big three of suck.

[MeeposFire]

Yeah, I'd say the Binder is probably _the_ worst. Seeker vs Assassin is a lot more ambiguous but together they are definitely the big three of suck.

I put the binder not just because the control is relatively weak (it isn't useless as some claim but it is weak) but it does not have anything that makes it unique or better than just taking the same powers as a standard warlock. Seekers and assassins are weak in their roles but at least are not so useless compared to their standard classes.


Oh and if you give back the gobstopper then I will play nice :smalltongue:

[Vknight]

Relatively fair arrangement, but this is my factory.

Also Binder is bad.
Seeker is awesome fun, horrible controller but with the right build it makes a fun striker. Combined with rerolls, multi class ranger, and a elf and the Seeker can lay into an enemy swarm.
Classic Assassin just needed more ways to stack on the shades and the ability to go up to 5shades. I'm thinking on working on some homebrew stuff to make it a playable class. But without those fixes classic sucks
I like to think of it as the big 4.

Seeker for controlling(Much better striker), Binder for not adding anything, Vampire for being so concrete, and the Assassin for being awesome as an idea but falling apart in play.

[Siegel]

What do Binders even do? Can someone give a short overview about the class and what is wrong with them?

Aren't they the Soulknifes of 4e?

[MeeposFire]

What do Binders even do? Can someone give a short overview about the class and what is wrong with them?

Aren't they the Soulknifes of 4e?

Not exactly.

soul knives had a unique ability but were a class that could not really compete in at level encounters. It is more similar to the vampire (though the vampire can compete against enemy encounters what it can't do is compete directly against other striker classes with much better striker potential and unlike the soul knife the vampire actually has a good baseline in other words it works very well in even the hands of low OP players-so higher low end OP but can't go as high OP as other strikers).


Binders have a different problem. They are a controller class that uses warlock powers. Their biggest problem is that their class abilities don't offer any significant benefit that a standard striker warlock can not do. So if you give a standard warlock binder powers (which is legal) then the standard warlock will perform just as well but with the might of the striker feature and support. So in other words a warlock with binder powers is always better than a binder and just as much of a controller (there are very few controller class features so controller power is mostly power related).

The binder also happens to have soft control which means compared to the best controllers it will be less powerful. It has been shown that they do contribute to a party and work in standard encounters (unlike some 3e classes) but they are far weaker than the better controller classes like wizards, invokers, or druids.

The fact their powers are fairly weak is only a secondary problem (that could be forgiven) it is the fact that they can be done with the same powers but be better overall by just playing a warlock is a fatal flaw.