3.5 Spellsword help needed

[zeboss]

Basically i am trying to make a build that can cast magic and be effective in melee combat, it can use any real class or prestige class, it should not be completely optimized but it should be a little above average.

[kardar233]

A Sorcadin is Paladin2/Sorceror4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8.

Gets +16 BAB (and thus 4 attacks on a full attack), casts spells like an 18th-level Sorceror (so gets 9th-level spells), gets bonuses on defensive spells and gets Charisma bonus to saves.

[Tvtyrant]

You are asking for what is commonly called in D&D a "gish." A gish is usually an arcane caster/melee combatant.

Arcane base classes meant to be a Gish:
Duskblade (PHBII).
Hexblade (Complete Warrior).
Ranger (PHB) with the Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine) and Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor).

[Urpriest]

The Sorcadin is one of the two standard Gish setups. You can also consider a Wizard-based one like

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight for the rest

[Tvtyrant]

There is also the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which takes away some caster levels but has some of the best abilities in the game. By RAW you cannot enter Swiftblade from Trapsmith, but the designer said he would have altered it if possible.

A basic Swiftblade build would be something like Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 for casting, melee attacks, an extra standard action a turn to buff yourself, etc.

[zeboss]

A Sorcadin is Paladin2/Sorceror4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8.

Gets +16 BAB (and thus 4 attacks on a full attack), casts spells like an 18th-level Sorceror (so gets 9th-level spells), gets bonuses on defensive spells and gets Charisma bonus to saves.

That sound pretty good, what feats would i want and in what order should i get the levels? (The campaign starts at level 1)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think going in the presented order is the best option; but make sure you play it like it is meant to, use your spells to be a better fighter, don't use them instead of your blade.

Anyway some of the standard Gish feats are:

Power Attack: Basic and yet your main source of damage from Mid-game onward
Combat Casting: Not good; but a pre-requisite for Abjurant Champion
Minor Shapeshift: A renewable source of Temp HP is quite useful, problem is that you need a level 4 polymorph spell so level 12 would be the earliest you can get it, I think (if Polymorph is banned, Troll shape covers the requisite and IIRC it is not a terrible spell on itself.)
Arcane Strike: Another great source of damage.
Extend Spell: Since most of your spell should be long duration buffs, taking a full round to make them last longer is not a bad trade-off in my opinion.

[Urpriest]

Another thing to consider is Arcane Preparation. Abjurant Champion makes Abjuration spells that grant armor more powerful, while the fluff makes this sound like it would help Mage Armor, Mage Armor is Evocation. The Book of Exalted Deeds has Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor though, which are Abjuration. Since they're Sanctified Spells, you need to be capable of preparing spells to cast them, Arcane Preparation is a good way to do this.

By the way, be aware that multiclassed gishes like the Sorcadin generally aren't that great at low level. If you don't think you're going to get to high level for a while you might want to play one of Tvtyrant's base class suggestions and not doing prestige classes or multiclassing.

[Greenish]

Since OP didn't specify the type of magic, clerics and psionic warriors are pretty good at the Magic Knight thingy.

A nice melee cleric build would come online faster than most arcane ones.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Don't neglect CL as it governs both duration and how strong they are against dispels. Practiced Spellcaster covers this quite nicely.

[herrhauptmann]

Don't neglect CL as it governs both duration and how strong they are against dispels. Practiced Spellcaster covers this quite nicely.

That should work even with Abj Champs martial arcanist right? (Always been unsure on the effects of feats/items that manipulate CL and how they stack)
Say a character has an actual caster level of 6, but a bab of 11 (Ftr6/wiz1/AC5).
Martial arcanist sets CL to be equal to BAB, so he'd have a CL of 11. That's easy.

With practiced spellcaster, would that then boost his CL to 4 over his Bab (capped at his level)? So this particular character would have a CL of 12 with practiced spellcaster.

[hex0]

I think this is in the rules....somewhere....but if there is a conflict about things that can stack with no ruling you do it in the order that is most advantageous.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That should work even with Abj Champs martial arcanist right? (Always been unsure on the effects of feats/items that manipulate CL and how they stack)
Say a character has an actual caster level of 6, but a bab of 11 (Ftr6/wiz1/AC5).
Martial arcanist sets CL to be equal to BAB, so he'd have a CL of 11. That's easy.

With practiced spellcaster, would that then boost his CL to 4 over his Bab (capped at his level)? So this particular character would have a CL of 12 with practiced spellcaster.

AFAIK hex0 is right, you can add up your bonuses in the way that is most advantageous to you... I still have to see that a DM says otherwise; but as with most things in D&D talking with the DM is the best idea.

[herrhauptmann]

AFAIK hex0 is right, you can add up your bonuses in the way that is most advantageous to you... I still have to see that a DM says otherwise; but as with most things in D&D talking with the DM is the best idea.

It's what I've been doing, but I can't find the phrase that says "most advantageous order when applying bonuses"
Looked for it when I did a gish with the mageslayer feats.

edit:
Anyway, to not derail further...

Swiftblade is perhaps my favorite gish PrC. But that loss of 4 caster levels hurts in optimized games. Since I don't think you've got that, it should be fine. Something like: Wiz4/Ftr1/spellsword1/swift9/AbjChamp5.
Just make sure to take an alternate version of dodge (ToB/MoI/RotW), and you can BUY mobility armor, which by RAW allows you qualify for PrC/feats. Though I don't like buying my prereqs.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are going Swiftblade, Expeditious Dodge (RotW IIRC) is the best option as it gives you a flat +2 to AC against every foe if you move at least 40 feet, which as a Swiftblade I guess you will be doing just that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's commonly misinterpreted that 'bonuses' get applied in the most beneficial order, but it's actually your 'effects' which you get to arrange as most beneficial. It's clearly stated in the FAQ, but nothing else even implies that they would be applied in any different order. Thus the Martial Arcanist effect and the Practiced Spellcaster effect could be applied in whichever order is most beneficial.

For the Sorcadin build, I'd start out with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon with spiked armor starting at 1st level. Preferably use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to get Power Attack and Combat Casting as well. Get Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Preparation at 3rd and 6th, Arcane Strike at 9th, Minor Shapeshift at 12th, and at 15th and 18th pick from Extend + Persistent Spell, Divine Might, Defensive Sweep, Leap Attack, etc. Your spells should mostly be buffs (Enlarge Person, Shield, Luminous Armor, Wraithstrike, Bull's Strength, Heart of Water, Polymorph, etc.) with a few extremely strong crowd control spells mixed in (Web, Black Tentacles, Solid/Freezing Fog, etc.). You could also consider picking up Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer (Dragon Compendium) early on (flaws+Human) to cast Animalistic Power for a +4 to Str, Dex, and Con.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Slight tangent, where is Animalistic power from? I am playing a gish in a PBP and that sounds like a tasty spell (even without Ability enhancer)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Slight tangent, where is Animalistic power from? I am playing a gish in a PBP and that sounds like a tasty spell (even without Ability enhancer)

PH2, though it normally only grants a +2 to each of those so it's usually not as good as Bull's Strength without Ability Enhancer.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would love to get ability enhancer; but my next level feat is already spoken for and I am not sure Dragon is approved, in any case it is still a good spell and it saves me two spell slots.

Edit: Thanks.

[zeboss]

The advice has been helpful but i'm not sure if it is exactly what i'm looking for. From what I understand gish use spells to support melee, whereas the class I am trying to build should be able to succeed in melee and have good combat spells. If these classes have the blasting power then please excuse my ignorance, but any help with that previously mentioned class idea would be most appreciated.

[Gavinfoxx]

The advice has been helpful but i'm not sure if it is exactly what i'm looking for. From what I understand gish use spells to support melee, whereas the class I am trying to build should be able to succeed in melee and have good combat spells. If these classes have the blasting power then please excuse my ignorance, but any help with that previously mentioned class idea would be most appreciated.

Well... there's the thing. Using spells offensively is usually an all or nothing proposition due to the way spells scale and such. Also remember that blasting is very much a subpar strategy in D&D, unless you optimize extensively and go 'all in' with blasting; the best offensive casters use battlefield control. At this point, you would want to go a straight spellcaster concept that, as an example, abuses polymorph forms and thus also happens to be good at melee (or even better at melee than melee focused characters).


So, please rank these things in order from most important to least important:

*Use spells offensively against enemies in some useful way
*Use blasting spells offensively against enemies in a useful way
*Be useful in melee with no buff spells up whatsoever
*Be useful in melee with several prepared buff spells up ahead of time
*Be useful in melee when you need to be, reactively, as needed, for short periods of time
*Be able to survive a round or two of melee and able to retreat away from melee, should you find yourself unexpectedly in melee

[Tvtyrant]

If your looking for a blaster that happens to be good at melee, I would suggest a Kineticist Psion. You get some pretty good blasting if you get Overchannel and Maximize power, while Psions lend themselves fairly well to melee due to their powers like vigor.

Another Psion option is Telepath Psion, which can grant you Schism (lets you get an extra power off each turn).

[Greenish]

The advice has been helpful but i'm not sure if it is exactly what i'm looking for. From what I understand gish use spells to support melee, whereas the class I am trying to build should be able to succeed in melee and have good combat spells. If these classes have the blasting power then please excuse my ignorance, but any help with that previously mentioned class idea would be most appreciated.If it's based on sorcerer or wizard, it can learn blasting spells.

Duskblades, too, come with several blasty options.

[Urpriest]

If you want to be the sort of caster who slings around damaging spells from the middle of melee, Duskblade is probably your best bet. The other gishes can do it, but they're usually better off just hitting things with their sword.

[zeboss]

Well... there's the thing. Using spells offensively is usually an all or nothing proposition due to the way spells scale and such. Also remember that blasting is very much a subpar strategy in D&D, unless you optimize extensively and go 'all in' with blasting; the best offensive casters use battlefield control. At this point, you would want to go a straight spellcaster concept that, as an example, abuses polymorph forms and thus also happens to be good at melee (or even better at melee than melee focused characters).


So, please rank these things in order from most important to least important:

*Use spells offensively against enemies in some useful way
*Use blasting spells offensively against enemies in a useful way
*Be useful in melee with no buff spells up whatsoever
*Be useful in melee with several prepared buff spells up ahead of time
*Be useful in melee when you need to be, reactively, as needed, for short periods of time
*Be able to survive a round or two of melee and able to retreat away from melee, should you find yourself unexpectedly in melee
1 Use spells offensively against enemies in some useful way
2 be useful in melee with no buff spells whatsoever
3 be useful in melee with several prepared buff spells ahead of time
4 Be useful in melee when you need to be, reactively, as needed, for short periods of time
5 Use blasting spells offensively against enemies in a useful way
6 Be able to survive a round or two of melee and able to retreat away from melee, should you find yourself unexpectedly in melee

[zeboss]

If you want to be the sort of caster who slings around damaging spells from the middle of melee, Duskblade is probably your best bet. The other gishes can do it, but they're usually better off just hitting things with their sword.

Yeah i was planning on something with the duskblade, but it seems to have limited spell options, so mainly i am just trying to improve that without losing the melee abilities of a duskblade

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

[Greenish]

1 Use spells offensively against enemies in some useful way
2 be useful in melee with no buff spells whatsoever
3 be useful in melee with several prepared buff spells ahead of time
4 Be useful in melee when you need to be, reactively, as needed, for short periods of time
5 Use blasting spells offensively against enemies in a useful way
6 Be able to survive a round or two of melee and able to retreat away from melee, should you find yourself unexpectedly in meleeHmm, by that, I'm tempted to say cleric. I'd have thought you'd put blasting higher, but eh.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Cleric or Druid it looks like... Druid has more battlefield control, and Wild Shape isn't a spell per se... so I would suggest Druid.

Remember, by level 8, you no longer need to be out of Wild Shape ever.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that either Cleric or Druid is definitely the way to go.

For a Cleric, get the Cold domain with probably Strength, and use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Cold. You'll have a decent melee capability out of the box, decent buffs like Enlarge Person, and extremely good offensive spellcasting from the Cold domain and be sure to prepare Ice Slick (Frostburn) a few times.

Get Extend, Persistent, and DMM: Persistent, and if you can use flaws pick up Extra Turning at least once, for all-day Ice Axe and Divine Favor/Power. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend to put Magic Vestment on your armor and shield every day. Consider getting Craft Rod to make your own Night Sticks and Rods of Extend later on.

See if you can make a visit to the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel (or if your characters take a few weeks off in-game, pay 2,000 gp and say he did it) to get Skill Focus: Kn: Religion without spending a feat on it, to qualify for Divine Oracle. I'd go Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, which is a pretty standard build for better-than-Cleric-20 class features.


A Druid is usually best just sticking to that class to 20 and beyond. Be sure to get Natural Spell at 6th level. Natural Bond (CV) is a great choice for 3rd level, since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order you can get a 'level -3' companion at 4th and apply Natural Bond after that -3 to still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. The strongest companions to get would be a Wolf starting at 1st level, then switch to a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Dire Eagle (RoS) at 4th. Be sure to use Handle Animal to give your companion the Warbeast template (MM2) at no drawback.

Pick up Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Faerun and you can summon a Greenbound Dire Rat and have it use its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability for some fairly extreme battlefield control from 1st level on. Greenbound summons are extremely tough and capable combatants in addition to being able to use Wall of Thorns 1/day and Entangle at will, and will most often survive their entire duration and cause opponents to waste a lot of actions attacking them and trying to escape their effects. Ashbound from ECS is also a great choice for summoning, and of course Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning, though none of those are even necessary.

Companion Spellbond (PH2) is a good choice if you'll be using/sharing a lot of buffs with your companion. Power Attack and Combat Reflexes are decent choices to make you better at melee, or Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple are good if you prefer wild shape forms that have Improved Grab.

You'll want to put Wilding Clasps (MIC) on your important gear later on, you'll want to get a Monk's Belt to get your Wisdom bonus to AC even when Wild Shaped, and definitely get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), and you'll probably want to be good aligned to be able to cast/share (Greater) Luminous Armor every day. Be sure to get a few Lesser Rods of Extend for buffs like Longstrider, Luminous Armor, and Produce Flame. As per holding the charge on a touch spell, you can cast Produce Flame to add fire damage to all of your claw and bite attacks. For some extreme cheese, the spells Snowsight and Obscuring Snow in Frostburn make for a completely unfair combination. Get your other party members to each buy a 1st level Pearl of Power and go in thirds to buy more Lesser Rods of Extend if they want you to put Extended Snowsight on each of them as well.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The advice has been helpful but i'm not sure if it is exactly what i'm looking for. From what I understand gish use spells to support melee, whereas the class I am trying to build should be able to succeed in melee and have good combat spells. If these classes have the blasting power then please excuse my ignorance, but any help with that previously mentioned class idea would be most appreciated.

This is not necessarily so: I once created a gish that focused on swift action and immediate action spells, like Wraithstrike, as well as spells that had battle-related effect, such as Whirling Blade. There were a few buff spells on the list, but there were also blasting spells and battlefield control options, which meant that I could make myself useful at 5 feet and at 500.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The advice has been helpful but i'm not sure if it is exactly what i'm looking for. From what I understand gish use spells to support melee, whereas the class I am trying to build should be able to succeed in melee and have good combat spells. If these classes have the blasting power then please excuse my ignorance, but any help with that previously mentioned class idea would be most appreciated.

This is not necessarily so: I once created a gish that focused on swift action and immediate action spells, like Wraithstrike, as well as spells that had battle-related effect, such as Whirling Blade. There were a few buff spells on the list, but there were also blasting spells and battlefield control options, which meant that I could make myself useful at 5 feet and at 500.

[Kaje]

I'm gonna go a different way and suggest a Glaivelock / Hellfire Warlock / Legacy Champion with a Binder dip or strongheart vest. 24-hr buffs, some utility, and you're dealing 30d6 or so damage 3 times by level 20. Ain't bad.

[hex0]

Yeah i was planning on something with the duskblade, but it seems to have limited spell options, so mainly i am just trying to improve that without losing the melee abilities of a duskblade

Give them Advanced Learning for any touch spell like a Beguiler at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. (Or eclectic learning, of course). Move up and/or delete some other Duskblade features and you have an ACF. :smallamused:

[zeboss]

The thing is, despite what my importance rating might suggest, a druid is just not what i'm looking for, nor is a cleric, i've played both of these before and want something new, right now I am trying to make something like a duskblade with more non-channeling offensive spell options, wether they are fireballs or blade barriers honestly doesn't matter to me much, hence the low rating of blasting. So yeah, if anyone has ideas for that it would be most appreciated.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, by offensive spells that aren't blasting, we generally mean things that tend not to actually do damage at all. Did you understand that when you ranked the items? Sometimes useful non blasting offensive spells (ie, spells that impact the enemy) can do damage themselves, but that is not their primary purpose; their primary purpose is usually to end fights.

See:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570 (not done)
and the older, but more 'done' guide:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0

How precisely were you playing Cleric and Druid? What were the things you were mostly doing with those classes? In any given fight, what sorts of things did you do with each?

[herrhauptmann]

The thing is, despite what my importance rating might suggest, a druid is just not what i'm looking for, nor is a cleric, i've played both of these before and want something new, right now I am trying to make something like a duskblade with more non-channeling offensive spell options, wether they are fireballs or blade barriers honestly doesn't matter to me much, hence the low rating of blasting. So yeah, if anyone has ideas for that it would be most appreciated.

The problem with trying to hit the enemy with spells as a gish, is that a lot of those, particularly the damaging ones rely on the enemy failing a save. Some like orb of X don't rely on saves, but damage is reliant on caster level.

Saves are affected by spell level and casting stat. As a gish type you'll be behind the party wizard in both. As an example, you'll be 10th level, with an 8 or 9 CL, trying to hurt:
1-- CR 10 enemies with 4th and maybe 5th level spells (at best)
2-- CR 8 or so mooks,
3-- CR 12 'difficult' enemies
4-- Boss enemies three or more levels on you.
As a result, the saves you'll be forcing them to roll will be much lower than those of the party wizard or sorcerer.


As a result, most gish or spellswords tend to use spells that boost themselves. Unbuffed, they might be equivalent to the party fighter or barbarian. But by buffing themselves, they become superior to the party fighter.
If they cast something directly on the enemy, it should be something that doesn't allow a save, and is not reliant on high caster levels to be effective. So ignore spells that deal something like 1d6/CL.

Which given what you listed as your first priority, will be very hard for you to do well. You might be able to get it done, but it will take up a LOT of your resources to get it done well, making you lag behind significantly in terms of being an actual gish.

[hex0]

The thing is, despite what my importance rating might suggest, a druid is just not what i'm looking for, nor is a cleric, i've played both of these before and want something new, right now I am trying to make something like a duskblade with more non-channeling offensive spell options, wether they are fireballs or blade barriers honestly doesn't matter to me much, hence the low rating of blasting. So yeah, if anyone has ideas for that it would be most appreciated.

Duskblades do have Polar Ray and a few others than are no-channel-able (without investing into Enlightened Fist anyway).

Have you looked at Magus? It is on the Pathfinder SRD and would need a little conversion, but I would take a look.

SOTAO Mystic Ranger is another option. Hexblade (with some other author's suggested fixes and online 'dead level' options) isn't too bad either.

Or Wizard 6/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) X offers much more versatility (by still being a wizard) combined with actually ass kicking ability. (My favorite entry is Trickster Spellthief 7 though!)

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, I forgot about that!

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1543.0

Go read that and check that out... it should help, maybe?