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View Full Version : Cleric/Paladin Build Help, Please.



Pard
2012-01-08, 10:03 PM
Hey Playground'ers!

I've rolled up a nice little history for this character I am working on. He is basically a cloister cleric 1 / paladin 2. And that is literally as far as I've got. The DM has no given us the rules for rolling attributes yet, so no go there. The initial progression is fixed in stone, because I am not going to be rewriting that history :smallbiggrin:

Any idea on what I should roll? I'm going for more of a build in tune with my character than a min/max, but I don't want to be a total waste of a party member! Ideally this guy would be a face and also a tank for the party, as that is his nature. To help I'll post the history below, if you want to read it...

Vilheim was born into a noble family. He was the only child of Lord Gart and Lady Evalyn MacHart of Trallchester. Like so many children of nobility, his childhood was an uneventful one, full of pampering and primping. He lived a life detached from his parents. His mother was to concerned with her social standing to be bothered over a child, and his father was to concerned about his finances to ever notice his only son.

Though unwanted by his parents, he was not unloved. He had a kind and loving nanny he knew as "Fe". Fe took good care of Vilheim, and over the years she imparted to him a devotion to the Hebdomad of Celestia. Between his classes aimed at teaching him proper manners and how to address others of nobility, Vilheim sought out Fe and demanded, in the kindest sort of way, her to read to him the stories of the Hobdomad.

With each passing year Fe became more and more like the mother Vilheim had, but never saw. He grew to love Fe in a way that he had never felt for any other person. Sure he loved his parents, but he loved them in the way Fe had taught him to love every person. The love for Fe was different, he felt calm around her, it was almost like she had an aura about her that made all things better. When Fe needed help Vilheim didn't even hesitate before jumping into action. He sought to help her without even a request for it. He wished only to make Fe happy, and he never wanted to see her sad. When she was angry Vilheim was angry at the object of Fe's only anger. Vilheim loved Fe like a mother, and so it caused all the more pain when she was one day not there to wake him.

The young Vilheim skipped all his classes that day and hunted high and low for Fe. He looked in every nook and cranny of the estate for his nanny, but she was no where to be found. When Vilheim began to press the help for answers to his missing Fe they immediately said that they had not seen her, but he knew that they were not telling him the whole truth.

The whole truth was that Fe has been fired from her position of Vilheim's nanny, and then had been banished from the lands of Trallchester. Her and her entire family was forced out of their home, and spirited away to the border without a moment's notice. All their worldly possessions were stripped from them, and they were left to fend for themselves in an alien land with only the clothes on their backs and the lint in their pockets.

But little Vilheim would not learn this truth for some years yet. He continued his classes, and his inquisition into the missing Fe. All the while he prayed to the Celestia lords to back his Fe, and he read the stories from the large leather tome that Fe had left behind. With time little Vilheim grew into a strapping teenage boy who had impeccable manners and a knowledge and respect for the Hobdomad of Celestia that rivaled that of many a priest. He kept his devotion to himself, though, never wishing to bring attention to his love. He feared that it would bring undo praise, and he wished not to become vain with praise.

Then one day Vilheim was invited to eat with his parents, a very uncommon occurrence for the boy. It was a chance to show them that their classes had been well used, and he aimed to please them. What Vilheim discovered at this dinner, however, was that his parents had no care for him, or for anyone else. They cared only for themselves. Vilheim was informed that he would be sent away to a boarding school where he would learn to inherit his father's estate. In the mean time he would be conscripted into his father's army forced to serve the father who never even acknowledged him. But Vilheim's despair at his pre-plotted fate was eclipsed by the idle chatter of his mother. She, for reasons unknown, brought up the long lost Fe and this perked Vilheim's ears. He listened and when the moment was right he asked what became of his dear Fe.

The answer would change Vilheim forever. Fe has been banished from the land for practicing a forbidden religion, and news was that she had later died from starvation. Vilheim felt an anger boiling within him that he'd never felt before in his entire life. He wished to see his mother and father dead. In fact he said something to that effect moments after being informed about Fe. He also remarked that he would disown his name and leave his family at once. With a chuckle his father said "We'll see," and then excused Vilheim from the dinner.

And see they did! Vilheim fled from his parent's estate that very night. He took with him clothing, an allotment of money, meager rations, and Fe's tome.

With the newly acquired knowledge that his own faith was not welcomed in his own lands, Vilheim fled for the closest border that he knew of. It was a land that Fe had talked of once in a while, and it was her home land. Vilheim desired to see his Fe again, and he pushed the rumors of her death aside. With great hope he marched onward for two days. Once across the border he sought the nearest city, but instead found but a small settlement of buildings.

The Hobdomad had led Vilheim to one of their temples! It was here that Vilheim sought shelter from his travel and here that Vilheim would ultimately reside for the next two years. The priests of the temple welcomed the amazingly knowledgeable Vilheim with open arms and rejoiced in his coming. With hesitation they offered him a place among their ranks, as an apprentice to their librarian.

The work entertained Vilheim, but it didn't challenge him or bring him a sense of fulfillment. He soon grew tired of the cloistered life of a librarian priest. He wished to bring the word of Hobdomad to the world, and he wished to vanquish the evils that prevented people from finding goodness. And so, after two years, and with great sadness, Vilheim said goodbye to his new home and his new friends. He traded his robes for armor, and his stylus for a sword. And though he kept Fe's tome as a defense, he also took up the shield. Before leaving his friends he vowed to go out into the world and defend the helpless from the wicked, and to seek out and destroy evil where ever it may be. As a final gesture of his devotion to both the Celestia plane and his vows, Vilheim abandoned the name of his wicked parents. His master, in turn, gave him the new moniker "The Gentle".

With great joy Vilheim the Gentle set off and went into the wilds.

Vilheim went from town to town. In each town he stayed for maybe a week or two. During that time he acted a priest for anyone wishing to speak to him as one. He also helped anyone who needed it, no task was too big or too small for the him to take on. He did everything from helping a widow re-thatch her house to helping one town rid themselves of a minor ghoul infestation. He was finally in his element, helping other. He truly found this work uplifting. Vilheim would continue with this, and he grew a reputation that did, indeed, proceed him.

People began to mark the day when Vilheim the Gentle would come to their small outpost in the wild and bring to them a little faith and a lot of help. After a year of this Vilheim widened his area of travel, in fact he completely moved onto a new land. He found that the villages began to grow in size until they finally became small cities. It was in one such city that Vilheim sought his next few weeks of proselytizing. What he had learned by this point was that most of these larger settlements had their own temples and their own faiths. Instead of taking up residence and having people flock to him, he had to go to the people in need. As luck would have it, most of the lost and downtrodden people seemed to congregate in taverns. And so it was in one such tavern, The Happy Harpy, that Vilheim was directed to a man sitting in the corner.

With a coin and a few kind words to Billy the bartender, Vilheim turned to the man at the table.

“Billy said you might have some skills that I could use” the man starts out. "How about you tell me what you can do?”

Snowbluff
2012-01-09, 01:59 AM
Quick question(s). Why are comboing Paladin and Cleric? They tend to be redundant in some ways and Cleric tends to overshadow paladin in others? Have you considered going for Prestige Paladin (UA) instead? :smallconfused:

Hirax
2012-01-09, 02:20 AM
I agree with prestige paladin if you want to combo these two classes, it gets you everything good from paladin while advancing your cleric casting instead. 3 levels is all you need, and then you can hop to a different class. Perhaps aim for cloistered cleric3/church inquisitor4/prestige paladin3.

iTookUrNick
2012-01-09, 05:48 AM
I understand you are going for a melee/charisma build. It is something that comes up a lot, and I am sure there are many pieces of advice out there already. For my part, I will start with a discussion on the fluff and story tie-ins while leaving the actual mechanical build later in the post.

"Fluff analysis"
The way I read your story, there is very little that would require a Paladin as a starting character. In fact, standard cleric would probably be more appropriate, since it provides strong faith overtones and above average combat abilities. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that your choice was meant to give emphasis to the two parts of your training (church duty and army training), but that doesn't have to be the case: you can just average it. In addition, split training would probably make you a cloistered cleric/warrior instead. I mean, forced recruiting in the army of an uncaring father doesn't go hand-to-hand with shiny paragon of valor and virtue of a outlawed deity.

I give you one additional perspective. You start your career as a cloistered cleric. Fantastic. Then you go to boot camp. The latter will make you stronger and tougher than the average friar (STR/CON above average), but may not turn you into a paladin right away. Perhaps they made you train with the sword for duels (weapon focus), taught how to ride a horse (mounted combat) or skillfully fight enemies (knowledge devotion). Perhaps they tried to train you with all armors (and you will perhaps remember their teachings later in your career) but you found heavy armors to be too cumbersome for easy use right now.*
*Also, exchanging robes for plate is a little brusque for anyone.

Using this latter interpretation (which I strongly favor) not only you get a more usable build, but you get the chance to witness firsthand the transformation from faithful bookworm to holy champion, which is cool in his own right. You get to say your vows as a holy knight (great roleplaying moment) and grow as a character.
The downside, of course, is that it takes time for you to do these things and grow into the tank archetype you were aiming for.

EDIT: I missed at first the part of the story where you "vow to protect the weak etc". While that does explain why you went with paladin, i would suggest you rethink it. What I mean is that, in my opinion, one can act like a Paladin without being one. In fact, it makes perfect sense to do so before committing one's entire existence, and postponing one's official vows also deliver a sense of acquired maturity. If nothing but yourself prevented you from straying from the path of righteousness, it is proof of your commitment.
Whereas the vows in your backstory (which is otherwise very detailed) seem to be a little contrived, as if added later as justification of your choices.

"Crunch analysis"
First of all, +1 for prestige paladin, with 3 levels being optimum and 5 being the next best thing. The advice you have been given (i.e: cleric and base paladin do not mesh as well as they should) is sound, and this is how pros (:smallbiggrin:) make it work.

You could also consider a few (ideally 3) levels of Ordained Champion instead of Inquisitor, being more melee oriented and helping qualify for Prestige Paladin. It looses 1 caster levels, but since you were going to multiclass to base paladin I am going to assume this is not an issue. My proposal is therefore:

Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 3/ Prestige Paladin 3/something else*

*IMHO Bone Knight 10 would be an excellent way to top the build. However, like blue cheese, it has a very strong flavor that often clash with the rest of the setting.

Your choice of a cloistered cleric for a melee build is debatable. I, for one, am a great fan of it (Knowledge devotion + collector of stories skill trick FTW) but you have to consider that most Prestige Classes for clerics/paladins offer a very low ammount of skill points to spend on knowledge skills and the like. The loss of 1 bab is of no consequence (again, knowledge devotion more than makes up for it, not to mention divine power) and you can pick up lost proficiencies later on.

Regarding race, I would say you can't go wrong with humans. In fact, I would even go on and say they may be the best choice for a build that is most likely going to be both skill and feat starved.

As an alternative, I would suggest Illumians (from Races of Destiny). They look like humans with glowing symbols on their heads. Among other things, you can choose to gain back 2 lost caster levels and, more importantly, to obtain bonus spells/day using your STR score rather than your WIS. This lets you easily "dump" your WIS to 13 (or lower, but not as easily) in favor of STR, CON and/or CHA. This is important since you start quite MAD already.

Regarding domains, if you go the Ordained Champion route I suggest you pick up the War domain at level 1. Weapon focus is useful for melee, and the first spells will find a lot of use as self buffs. The later ones, well... at least they have no save DC...
It is also important to know how much "wiggle room" you have regarding deity-domain pairings. Being homebrew and everything, I would say anything with flavor can go.
From core, Travel domain deserves special mention for being useful all-around (despite its power being tied to cleric levels). You should also check the Spell Compendium for choices like Charm (useful for the "face" side of the build) or the ever-popular Time domain.
You also receive the Knowledge domain fo free, but I suggest you trade it with the knowledge devotion feat, since you pretty much already have the associated power and the spell selection is lackluster.

Finally, a few regarding Feat selection.
Let's start by saying that some of them are already called-for by PrC prerequisites, but these are fairly useful/flavorful ones like Weapon focus and mounted combat. Others are just Very Good Ideas, such as the aforementioned Knowledge Devotion or Holy Warrior. Then there is a whole load of Divine feats with varying degrees of usefulness scattered among various books. Finally, there are some feats that do not belong in any of those categories but that you may want to consider, such as Battle blessing (swift cast paladin spells) or Shield casting (if you decide to go with a shield rather than power attack route).
It must be noted that two-handed weapons + power attack/leap attack is considered more effective than sword+shield. Also, there are spells that give shield bonuses and at higher levels you can have animated shields protecting your side while you wield your weapon two handed.

I must also point out that, if your DM allows it, Flaws from Unearthed Arcana (the same book as the Prestige paladin) are almost like free feats. Shaky in particular is a no-brainer (you have no ranged capabilities worth anything anyway). Another way to increase your feats is to trade in a domain power you do not like (and that you chose for its spell selection) when entering Ordained champion.

For further information on related topics, here are a few links:
If you want to browse all available feats, I found this site quite useful: D&D Toolshop (http://dndtools.eu/). This is the direct link for divine feats (http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/divine/).
Some very detailed discussion about clerics is here in the Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0), although most of it is geared toward casters.
When looking for ways to optimize, don't forget to check this most useful thread: X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

I hope I have been exhaustive. Feel free to ask for clarification (or just tell me I got it all wrong :smalleek:).