Vecna vs. Voldemort [Archive] - Page 2 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lamech

2012-01-12, 11:07 AM

I just checked the earliest stats for Vecna I could find in AD&D (in Vecna Lives!) at that point, he was already a demigod

This is before ascension to godhood. You become a demi-god after ascension to godhood. A demi-god despite the name is a god. Clerics can choose them as there god. IIRC in the old deities and demigods book, when you ascend to godhood you start as a demi-god. Hence clearly post ascension.

@Fan: First you should use ADnD magic not 3.5 magic. Vecna was already a god by the time 3.5 rolled around. And no Vecna will no go Tippy-style. As demonstrated by his distinct lack of Tippy-style.

Am I the only one who smells a deliberate ploy? The only real indication this wasn't an unexpected betrayal is... he came back from it? Nor do the artifacts mean much. How do they actively help him? Corrupt people to evil yes, but those are a dime a dozen. Plus a sword did start circulating that now wants him dead.

Also consider this: Redcloak is great at killing adventures. Always has been. He isn't killing the OotS as they close with the first gate. The gate explodes. Sometime later he reappears.

As the supreme leader of a massive army.

Am I the only one who smells a ploy? Simply because someone recovers from a set back doesn't mean a whole lot.

Finally, even if the act of cutting off the eye and the hand by a cool sword was needed, and having an excuse to run away was needed why not just tell Kas to do it? There is no reason to activly have some betray you unless you're an idiot. Especially according to someone earlier in this thread, by a balor. Yet as per cannon Vecna was in fact betrayed.

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-12, 11:57 AM

This is before ascension to godhood. You become a demi-god after ascension to godhood. A demi-god despite the name is a god. Clerics can choose them as there god. IIRC in the old deities and demigods book, when you ascend to godhood you start as a demi-god. Hence clearly post ascension.

Well, if you want to constrain right back to the point where Vecna is essentially "off-screen" and literally in his own backstory (which is skirting close to asking where do you stop, having him fight Voldemort as a 1st level wizard or as a child?) - because this would mean before the Hand and the Eye and Kas' betrayal, then1 - since he has only appeared in person, as a character, in the three aforementioned quest books, in demigod form, prior to his ascention to full godhood - we are forced then to go from what precious little that is known about that.

Which is that Vecna is the most powerful wizard in the world, before or since, and was tutored by the personification of magic itself personally and ruled an empire of his own making for centuries and there is a strong possibility he may have been able to cast any spell, arcane or divine.

Voldemort, despite being one of the more powerful wizards in his world (and preportedly most powerful Dark wizard), failed to do any of these things; so unless you are trying to tell me that Harry Potter and co are powerful enough to be in a position to be brawling at a literal superhuman level - because regardless of how powerful AK as an offense (and I truthfully don't rate it much in comparison, to, say firearms), because they beat Voldy and his flunkies (and that Voldemort was scared of Dumbledore, who would then be even more powerful) and so must be not far away on the power curve, or Voldy would not have had to fight at all - he is not even remotely in the same league of power.

And the fact that whatever else, the point is worth stating, as I've realised from looking this stuff up:

Voldemort cannot, will not and never can have won against Vecna because there is very strong evidence that Vecna simply cannot be killed at all.

His own Lichdom didn't kill him, the explosion in the betrayal didn't kill him, he was literally unkillable in the stas we have for him as a demigod, the Lady of Pain couldn't even stop him unaided on her home turf, the Powers of Ravenloft couldn't even hold him - tell me, what could Lord Voldemort, even if had had the same level of power as the Lady of Pain, POSSIBLY do to Vecna that was anything other than a minor inconvieniance, even with a stupidly massive (and entirely unjustified) advantage?

1Which, I think, is not what the spirit of the thread is about, as Vecna's ascention to full godhood is a well-known event, and I assume what Kyberwulf meant, though I'll leave to him to clarify.

Tiki Snakes

2012-01-12, 12:32 PM

Simply because someone recovers from a set back doesn't mean a whole lot.

It's not specifically that he came back from it that makes it seem odd. It's the fact that the very next time he is noticed at all he has already ascended to literal Godhood. That fact, taken in combination with his established modus operandi just makes me wonder, is all.

Also, if we are going purely by the pre-statted Vecna, then all you really have is a handful of second and third hand rumours and conjecture. Given that those rumours at times suggest that he was fathered by the personification of magic itself and was unquestionably the most powerful spellcaster of all time, whose empire only fell because of a betrayal that could not be meaningfully repeated doesn't really help Voldemort much. At least going by the statted version means we have something concrete to go by.

Gullintanni

2012-01-12, 01:21 PM

Also, if we are going purely by the pre-statted Vecna, then all you really have is a handful of second and third hand rumours and conjecture. Given that those rumours at times suggest that he was fathered by the personification of magic itself and was unquestionably the most powerful spellcaster of all time, whose empire only fell because of a betrayal that could not be meaningfully repeated doesn't really help Voldemort much. At least going by the statted version means we have something concrete to go by.

The way I read this essentially translates to:

Pre-statted Vecna is the smartest most powerful spellcaster ever.

Post-statted Vecna, going by the Vecna Lives! stats, is more than a match for Volde.

The way I read descriptions of Volde thus far:

He's among the most powerful, dumbest spellcasters in the HPverse ever.

I guess, conclude as you will, but either way, Kas is just a drop in the bucket compared to Volde's repeat failures. You can damn well bet that if Vecna had wanted Harry Potter dead, he'd have got him, his family, his friends, his friend's families and his family's friends, and he'd have gotten it all done on the first go around.

Lastly, on the efficacy of AK, all we know is that it's a death attack (which Vecna is immune to) that significantly damages inanimate objects. You know what else can shatter stone in the D&D verse? An adamantine warhammer. And it'd take a heck of a lot more than that to bring down Vecna (who isn't inanimate, so we really don't know what effect AK will have on Vecna, who resists the death attack component entirely).

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-12, 01:54 PM

You know something I always found unbelieveable in Rowling's work?
The real lack of international wizards...

...for example, assuming virtually every major nation has the same setup with wizards behind the scenes, would the United States have the same deal?
I don't think the American Muggles or the American Wizards would tolerate a dictator in one of their oldest allies.
So, now, Voldemort, if he'd won, would have to contend with an entire coaltion of wizards from America, Europe in general and possibly any other group of wizards thinking; "Mhmmm, this Vedelmetz, is shaking up things a bit too much, we need to deal with him..."

Voldemort threatened a school, the wizard community and a country...
...Vecna threatened an the fabric of an entire world!

That's the scale of powers they're dealing with.

Weezer

2012-01-12, 02:05 PM

You know something I always found unbelieveable in Rowling's work?
The real lack of international wizards...

...for example, assuming virtually every major nation has the same setup with wizards behind the scenes, would the United States have the same deal?
I don't think the American Muggles or the American Wizards would tolerate a dictator in one of their oldest allies.
So, now, Voldemort, if he'd won, would have to contend with an entire coaltion of wizards from America, Europe in general and possibly any other group of wizards thinking; "Mhmmm, this Vedelmetz, is shaking up things a bit too much, we need to deal with him..."

Especially since it was shown that international intervention happened in the past, when Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald. It seems odd that only British wizards care about Voldemort, though that is one of the smallest failings in Rowling's world.

Eldan

2012-01-12, 02:12 PM

Hmm. International wizards.

"Hello Harry, my name is Dresden, of the White Council of North America. I'm here to take out your Lord Waldomorde."

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-12, 02:33 PM

"Hello Harry, my name is Dresden, of the White Council of North America. I'm here to take out your Lord Waldomorde."
Precisely.
The British might be terrified of him, but from the Quidditch World Cup, we realize the rest of the world is ignorant of him.
Voldemort might be able to get the entire British wizarding government, but can he get a death grip on an entire planet?
And he won't just be going up against other wizarding governments.
Perhaps other wizards work more closely with their Muggle counterparts, which means Spanish wizards backed with Spanish commandos could be helicopter dropped under cover of Invisibilty charms.
And then what if he had to face tribal spellcasters from less developed nations.

The idea of Voldemort conquering Earth is ludicrous. But Vecna would simply shape reality from the comfort of his own home.
Once again.
BAM.

NOTE: And by the Nine Hells, if someone tells me some strategy about how my Spanish wizard/Muggle team-up would be defeated by firing a [insert faux-Latin spell here] will fail...

Weezer

2012-01-12, 02:40 PM

NOTE: And by the Nine Hells, if someone tells me some strategy about how my Spanish wizard/Muggle team-up would be defeated by firing a [insert faux-Latin spell here] will fail...

Eh, all you need to do is wait until midafternoon and hit them while they're in the midst of their siesta. No need for faux-latin gibberish :smalltongue:

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-12, 02:46 PM

Eh, all you need to do is wait until midafternoon and hit them while they're in the midst of their siesta. No need for faux-latin gibberish
Oh...
Damn.
That's actually pretty good.
But would Voldemort be smart enough to expl-
:smallsmile:
Nah, the Spanish are safe as long as they don't try to attack England by sea.
Never seems to end well for them...

Avilan the Grey

2012-01-12, 02:54 PM

Oh...
Damn.
That's actually pretty good.
But would Voldemort be smart enough to expl-
:smallsmile:
Nah, the Spanish are safe as long as they don't try to attack England by sea.
Never seems to end well for them...

Use the tunnel, like everyone else. :smallbiggrin:

Traab

2012-01-12, 03:39 PM

Use the tunnel, like everyone else. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, theres a TUNNEL now?!

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-12, 03:42 PM

Wait, theres a TUNNEL now?!
Well, from France to England, right?

Traab

2012-01-12, 03:46 PM

Well, from France to England, right?

I wouldnt use it. Its obviously a trap.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-12, 03:49 PM

I wouldnt use it. Its obviously a trap.
True. In like every movie and story going into those tunnels in ANY kind of a disaster is a death-trap.

Weezer

2012-01-12, 03:51 PM

Wait, theres a TUNNEL now?!

Not just a tunnel, but a Chunnel.

Traab

2012-01-12, 04:26 PM

Not just a tunnel, but a Chunnel.

Are you sure its not just those crazy brits with their odd version of real english misspelling things again?

turkishproverb

2012-01-12, 05:32 PM

Hmm. International wizards.

"Hello Harry, my name is Dresden, of the White Council of North America. I'm here to take out your Lord Waldomorde."

...

I love you for this.

Coidzor

2012-01-12, 05:42 PM

They do function, semi-mechanically, much more like Sorcerers than Wizards. Voldemort is a moron, but it's beaten into us over and over how charismatic he is and has always been, even as a child.

His portrayals always struck me as a bit too "cold fish" to be considered charismatic, really. :smallconfused:

I'm not sure it's ever been suggested as a serious theory, but there's a thing about the whole Kas betrayal.
[...]
Am I the only one who smells a deliberate ploy?

I already put that forward, everyone either ignored it or mocked the idea.

...

I love you for this.

2nded.

Traab

2012-01-12, 07:40 PM

His portrayals always struck me as a bit too "cold fish" to be considered charismatic, really. :smallconfused:

I already put that forward, everyone either ignored it or mocked the idea.

2nded.

From what I understand, until harry blew him up as a 1 year old, he WAS charismatic. He could be charming, persuasive, he was fairly attractive, and had all the right mannerisms. He was able to make people follow him willingly, enslave themselves to him willingly. But spending 13 years as a wraith, after getting your ass kicked by a baby, tends to change a person I guess. :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2012-01-12, 09:12 PM

As a kid being visited by Dumbledore, in his appearances in flashbacks to when he was a teenager, in his diary-form.... He just doesn't seem to actually deliver the stuff that everyone builds him up to be. Like we're told he's charismatic... but every time we see him he's a cold, dead fish that's bad at lying to an old, amoral man who wants to believe the lie.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-12, 09:17 PM

His portrayals always struck me as a bit too "cold fish" to be considered charismatic, really. :smallconfused:

You really need to watch A Very Potter Musical (free on YouTube!)

Also, regarding the general isolation of Wizarding Britain...I figured that the rest of the wizarding world was ignoring the crazy, backwards limeys intentionally (an idea used in a few crossover fanfics I've seen). Voldemort really was not a global scale threat, so no other wizarding government really wanted to bother intervening in Britain. Now, once he took over the Ministry and got his hands on a magical artifact, that might have been a different story, but as people probably expected, the problem resolved itself in about nine or ten months anyway.

Okay, I came back, but it was to plug AVPM and Voldemort's appearance therein. That's a worthy cause.

AgentofHellfire

2012-01-12, 09:18 PM

Traab

2012-01-12, 10:10 PM

You really need to watch A Very Potter Musical (free on YouTube!)

Also, regarding the general isolation of Wizarding Britain...I figured that the rest of the wizarding world was ignoring the crazy, backwards limeys intentionally (an idea used in a few crossover fanfics I've seen). Voldemort really was not a global scale threat, so no other wizarding government really wanted to bother intervening in Britain. Now, once he took over the Ministry and got his hands on a magical artifact, that might have been a different story, but as people probably expected, the problem resolved itself in about nine or ten months anyway.

Okay, I came back, but it was to plug AVPM and Voldemort's appearance therein. That's a worthy cause.

Yeah, ive read fanfics like that. I especially like it when the other countries mention that the few times death eaters tried to strike over their borders, they took horrible losses. Generally due less to effective aurors in other lands, and due more to the fact that in other nations they had effective teachers in school and are trained to defend themselves. They generally bring logic and math into the scenario to explain why britain is stupid. "If people fought back, and on every raid, or every other raid even one death eater died in the attack, voldemort would run out of troops fast. He is the leader of a tiny vocal minority, and the people who physically support him are even smaller than the ones willing to bellow the pureblood dogma."

And its true, if people fought back when their houses were attacked, they would still die in the end most likely, but every death eater that bleeds out on the ground makes future attacks that much less effective. But instead they shriek and cower and die slow horrible deaths anyways, and the death eaters are free to attack even more targets because they dont lose any troops.

Tavar

2012-01-12, 10:17 PM

So...the argument against the British wizards is that they all aren't fanatical Soldiers? Uh...duh.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-12, 10:38 PM

So...the argument against the British wizards is that they all aren't fanatical Soldiers? Uh...duh.

Agreed. The same can be said about gangsters attacking normal people but we don't hear about that many people fighting back. Though we do hear some pretty spectacular cases.

Xondoure

2012-01-12, 10:40 PM

Personaly theory is that the rest of the wizarding world was preparing itself for war. Knowing they had the numbers to win and hoping that they wouldn't have to.

We know that his influence extended beyond britain from Karkarov though.

Traab

2012-01-12, 10:43 PM

So...the argument against the British wizards is that they all aren't fanatical Soldiers? Uh...duh.

No, its that they dont have the slightest capability to defend themselves despite walking around at all times with a lethal weapon. Think about it. Every witch or wizard is armed with the equivalent of a loaded gun that can shoot lethal or nonlethal rounds whenever they want. When everyone is armed, criminals become far less effective. When you have a population of sheep that would rather shriek like little girls and hide under their beds until the big bad wolf drags them out and eats them, the bad guys are unstoppable.

Because the other nations are setup in a way that both allows its regular citizens to protect themselves, and teaches them how, the death eaters try to strut through the front door of their house and get mauled like they walked up and slapped a grizzly. Instead of being taught to call for aurors and do nothing, they are taught to call the aurors and protect themselves. You tell me which one is both more reasonable, and more effective.

Too be fair, most of that type of story also includes things like repressive self defense laws where you can get taken in for questioning if you fight back. If the wizengamot determines you used excessive force, you go to azkaban. And dont forget who generally controls the wizengamot. Purebloods, bribed ministers, and blind old men who are more worried about giving the bad guys second chances than protecting the good guys. So basically, british civilians in those stories have their hands tied and are damned if they do, dead if they dont.

Coidzor

2012-01-12, 10:51 PM

No, its that they dont have the slightest capability to defend themselves despite walking around at all times with a lethal weapon.

And having compulsory(?) education that requires them to learn basic defence and all the more reason to be practicing it actively once the crazies start with the violence.

It's just one more plot-hole about the nature of the magical community.

You really need to watch A Very Potter Musical (free on YouTube!)

I'm scared now. :smallconfused::smalleek: Why? *peeks over large stuffed animal*

Also, regarding the general isolation of Wizarding Britain...I figured that the rest of the wizarding world was ignoring the crazy, backwards limeys intentionally (an idea used in a few crossover fanfics I've seen).

I just figured it was because JK Rowling was assuming a British audience long after it was appropriate to do so. Though this does have a certain, non-plothole feel to it.

Weezer

2012-01-12, 11:07 PM

I'm scared now. :smallconfused::smalleek: Why? *peeks over large stuffed animal*

It's actually not scary at all, more like incredibly hilarious :smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-13, 12:50 AM

AVPM is my favorite interpretation of Harry Potter. Not a damn thing like the books, but totally awesome regardless.

And anyway, I think it's perfectly believable that a small group of terrorists manage to oppress an entire population despite their limited numbers and no practical difference in their "weaponry" from the general wizarding populace, simply because Death Eaters are willing to kill and almost no one else is. A great deal of people aren't even psychologically ready to fight at all, regardless of whether they had seven years of DADA at secondary school or not, and even if they are, a scared family firing Stunning Spells vs. half a dozen psychopathic-yet-trained Death Eaters staging a rapid home invasion and spamming Avada Kedavra isn't going to stand a realistic change of downing even one of them. Even if they did, the family is dead and the Death Eater is merely unconscious and can be carried out. I think that is a large part of why, in the backstory, Unforgivables were eventually allowed outright to everyone, not just Magical Law Enforcement. It became the only practical way for people to defend themselves.

Of course, it's entirely possible that wizards of other nations (the Americas, if not continental Europe as well) are far more psychologically prepared to deal with Death Eaters and the like in a bloody and lethal fashion. Compare, but please do not go into detail on, gun culture in Britain vs. the United States. You cannot legally own a gun useful for anything but bird-hunting in Britain, period, just as you cannot legally use a Killing Curse, period, and simply due to the culture it's going to be rarer in Britain for someone to defend himself or herself with weapon-based violence than it is in, and I use this only as a familiar example, America. That might make a difference in any country where Wizard culture is still an echo of Muggle culture.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 01:12 AM

Fair points.

But it comes down to this: If Voldemort did the same thing in a Rowling-version of say... Mississipi...
...Cairo...
...Mississipi...
...Harlem...
...Iqualit...
...Rio de Janeiro...
...Okinawa...
...Hong Kong...

He'd encounter greater or possibly lesser resistance that Vecna would simply steamroll over.
^^

Vecna: "Oh? So this Madrid place combines their wizards with their mundane forces? How quaint..."
*flips through his divine blackbook and casts Contact Other Plane*
Vecna: "Hey, Asmodeus, have I got an opportunity for you!"

Tavar

2012-01-13, 02:01 AM

Note that simply having a wand isn't enough. Harry in the fifth book used the Torture spell on Beatrix several times, and barely seemed to phase her. He simply didn't have the right mindset. A mindset that apparently requires one to really want to torture the others.

Also, I'm not sure you can really that one would do better. The Aurors didn't really seem to do to well against the Death Eaters.

Avilan the Grey

2012-01-13, 02:38 AM

I do find the whole thing with Voldy being a local dictator interesting, and as someone wrote it is obvious that Rowling wrote for a pure British audience. It seems the last evil overlord wizard wannabe (whatshisname?) who started WWII had greater plans and a greater, but much horrible, mind.

I am not familiar with gun policies in Britain, really; in Sweden we are closer to the Canadian mindset (we, like Canada, have more weapons per capita than the US, but they are almost all various kinds of hunting rifles). On the other hand all police officers are carrying guns at all times and are using shredder ammo to maximize stopping power and avoid that the gun goes through one person and hurts another.

Anyway the idea that the rest of Europe, and probably the US, were preparing for a necessary intervention that never happened because of the events in the last book is very likely.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 02:46 AM

*Imagines sicing a wizard with an aircraft carrier on unsuspecting PCs*
**ignores the likely CR**
***drools***

"Wait, lemme get this straight-not only can he cast 7th level spells... But he's got AIR SUPPORT!?!?!?!"

Avilan the Grey

2012-01-13, 02:52 AM

"Wait, lemme get this straight-not only can he cast 7th level spells... But he's got AIR SUPPORT!?!?!?!"

*Hums "Ride of the Valkyries"*

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 02:58 AM

TheCountAlucard

2012-01-13, 03:20 AM

What level wizard would it take to render unable to continue combat a Ford-class carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford_class_aircraft_carrier), if fully stocked, ready and in the open sea?Pretty sure that with a few strategically-placed wall of force spells, a wizard could sink the thing by himself... at the level you can cast it, you produce a 90-foot-long invisible, immobile plane of force.

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-13, 06:26 AM

I work on the basis that, given the near-colonial sort of attiutudes the wizards sometimes display that the entire wizarding world is probably just as backwards as Wizarding Britain. They may have been just as frightened of Voldy as Britain was, and no keener to get involved. (The world police thing with the developed nations of the latter half of the twentieth century and twenty-first as a very new idea, and my guess is the backward wizards won't be very quick to adopt it.) We don't know, but it is certainly possible, that the muggle governments and the wizarding ones don't share any of the same policies, and aside from the wizards letting the muggles know of wizarding problems when they really, really had to, it's possible that never the twain shall meet. (Did UK wizards care about the Falklands, say? Well, actually, probably not, thinking about it, that would have come at, as they say, a bad time just after the First Wizarding War. A better question would be, did (UK) wizards notice World War I, aside from in wizard newspapers about "the muggles are fighting on the contient (again)?")

(Wizarding America, in particular, may not have the same emphasis on the right to bear arms and such, given how isolated from muggle culture wizard seem to be - the implication from the books is that once you become a wizard, you tend to leave the muggle world behind, even if you're muggle born. The third amendment, is it? Didn't crop up until you guys got independance (or something, I dunno, I'm English...) , and we know wizards seem to not care about guns, so Wizarding America maybe couldn't have cared less about what the muggles were doing. (Heck, given how little Wizarding Britain seemed to notice WW2 - aside from Grindlewald - it's entirely possible that Wizarding America just blithely ignored the entirity of the war for independance and the Civil War. Unlike the UK, America is plenty big enough to sequester themselves away if they wanted to...)

An interesting question, though perhaps steering too political for discussion here, is what sort of wizards - if any, at first - would have settled in America during the colonisation, as that would likely have set the tone for the future American wizarding culture, and whether some it modern US culture would have perculated through due to muggleborns - there is a slim possiblity that US wizarding culture might be even more traditional/colonial than the British one, depending on it's origins.)

To be fair to Voldy, no-one ever conquered the world before establishing a power-base. He couldn't have started taking over the world until he'd secured Britain. (Which, unlike Grindlewald in Germany in the 1940s, didn't have an economically struggling populace and a muggle leader who it is implied would go along with his plans, so his task was a little more uphill. And it takes more time than Voldy had, in the event, to do that (a good year or two.) Grindlewald could have been stopped sooner too, probably, if Dumbledore had got off his butt...)

Who knows, maybe some or many of the other wizarding powers thought it t'werent any of their business, or viewed Britain with the same leery gaze as the USSR got from the west at the time. (Or if thought they would be able to negociate with Voldy and get "peace in their time..."

(For the record by the way, gun policy in Britain is simply "we don't." (Legally, anyway.) Though at the time of the books, there were slightly less restrictions and you could still go to shooting ranges. The tragic events Dunblane in 1996 were the instigator of the current laws.)

The Glyphstone

2012-01-13, 06:32 AM

Pretty sure that with a few strategically-placed wall of force spells, a wizard could sink the thing by himself... at the level you can cast it, you produce a 90-foot-long invisible, immobile plane of force.

Yeah, aircraft carriers react...poorly....to ramming indestructible barriers at flank speed. With an Invisibility spell, he could even get into position to cast it unnoticed (radar ain't so good at picking up human-sized targets in most cases).

Worira

2012-01-13, 07:09 AM

While neither low-level nor a wizard spell, I'd like to suggest casting Transmute Metal to Wood on the reactors as a stylish method of disabling a supercarrier.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 07:11 AM

While neither low-level nor a wizard spell, I'd like to suggest casting Transmute Metal to Wood on the reactors as a stylish method of disabling a supercarrier.
Oh...
...oh, you're mean.
You're very, very, very mean.

Can you imagine the look on the ship engineer's face?
:smalleek:

The Glyphstone

2012-01-13, 07:14 AM

While neither low-level nor a wizard spell, I'd like to suggest casting Transmute Metal to Wood on the reactors as a stylish method of disabling a supercarrier.

That takes getting inside the supercarrier though, to the reactor room to boot, and if you've accomplished that, you might as well hijack the thing instead and sail it away yourself.

As for the engineer, if you did pull that off, I doubt he'd have a look on his face, or a face to have a look on, for very long.:smallbiggrin:

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 07:33 AM

As for the engineer, if you did pull that off, I doubt he'd have a look on his face, or a face to have a look on, for very long.
I know!
By the time he goes, "A-admiral... I believe that's w-wood... Oh good heavens..."

That takes getting inside the supercarrier though, to the reactor room to boot, and if you've accomplished that, you might as well hijack the thing instead and sail it away yourself.
True...
...but think about the message you'd send.
:smallsmile:

The Glyphstone

2012-01-13, 08:34 AM

That you blew up a carrier? Sure, that's an impressive message on its own, but it wouldn't be any different than Disintegrating a key portion of the cooling system, or just Disintegrating the entire ship bit by bit. If you pulled it off, no one but yourself would be alive to know how you did it, so it's mostly wasted effort in the end.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-13, 09:25 AM

Okay, combining Harry Potter magic with the real world leads to enough weirdness. Let's not get into D&D spells.

I do wonder what Wizards came over to America, though. Presumably very, very clever ones, initially, given the general tenor of the original Muggle populace. Or they just waited until the Enlightenment took hold properly and snuck in with the Freemasons.

Avilan the Grey

2012-01-13, 09:59 AM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-13, 10:02 AM

Did they get along better with the magical colonists than their culture in general did with the Muggle colonists? If not, well...

Coidzor

2012-01-13, 10:14 AM

Did they get along better with the magical colonists than their culture in general did with the Muggle colonists? If not, well...

Considering that the ancient egyptian wizards apparently died out as a magical tradition and instead became something for british wizards on holiday to go gawk at.... :/

Tyndmyr

2012-01-13, 01:25 PM

Now here's a good question...

What level wizard would it take to render unable to continue combat a Ford-class carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford_class_aircraft_carrier), if fully stocked, ready and in the open sea?

First.

Disguise Self, Abrupt Jaunt will get you anywhere in it you need to be. Shocking grasp to disable whatever you need to disable(controls on major subsystems should do just fine), and if you absolutely have to flatten someone on the way through...power word pain.

You have now won.

If you have a couple more levels, I reccomend guidance of the avatar to get a +20 to your pilot check, jacking an aircraft and flying away in style to make PROPER use of Craft Arms and Armor on it. Flaming, Vorpal, +1 F-22 = win forever.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 01:26 PM

First.

You have now won.
No, sir, you have now won.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-13, 01:28 PM

First.

Disguise Self, Abrupt Jaunt will get you anywhere in it you need to be. Shocking grasp to disable whatever you need to disable(controls on major subsystems should do just fine), and if you absolutely have to flatten someone on the way through...power word pain.

You have now won.

If you have a couple more levels, I reccomend guidance of the avatar to get a +20 to your pilot check, jacking an aircraft and flying away in style to make PROPER use of Craft Arms and Armor on it. Flaming, Vorpal, +1 F-22 = win forever.

wouldn't work. Disguise self would be seen through. Plus the systems are electrical resistant and would take a major shock to shut down. Power word pain wouldn't drop someone fast enough and they would drop you with a single shot.

But lets please not get into real world vs D&D world. It just doesn't work.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-13, 01:31 PM

Tyndmyr

2012-01-13, 01:49 PM

wouldn't work. Disguise self would be seen through. Plus the systems are electrical resistant and would take a major shock to shut down. Power word pain wouldn't drop someone fast enough and they would drop you with a single shot.

But lets please not get into real world vs D&D world. It just doesn't work.

It's a +10 to Disguise Self. Suspicious observers, such as guards, by RAW, are taking 10 on spot, which opposes disguise.

So, even if you rolled a nat 1, you're good.

Power word pain can do up to 6 damage per round. Depending on stats and roll, that can in fact drop someone to unconciousness in a single round. Even if it does not, you literally have to say a single word, and a guy quite some distance away from you starts twitching in pain and dying. It has no save. It's a bit of a puzzler for someone who hasn't seen magic to figure out in six seconds and, even if he does and shoots at you, you have abrupt jaunt, and don't care. He still dies, it's just a bit less stealthy.

The actual spell used for trashing systems varies. If you prefer to not electrocute things, Complete Mage has a first level spell that summons a 5ft cube of wood into existence for three rounds. That should be sufficient to crush all manner of things, and leave absolutely no evidence after the fact.

If you want more style, there's always True Strike and a weapon, though. Any weapon, non proficiency won't matter.

Gullintanni

2012-01-13, 02:24 PM

It's a +10 to Disguise Self. Suspicious observers, such as guards, by RAW, are taking 10 on spot, which opposes disguise.

So, even if you rolled a nat 1, you're good.

Power word pain can do up to 6 damage per round. Depending on stats and roll, that can in fact drop someone to unconciousness in a single round. Even if it does not, you literally have to say a single word, and a guy quite some distance away from you starts twitching in pain and dying. It has no save. It's a bit of a puzzler for someone who hasn't seen magic to figure out in six seconds and, even if he does and shoots at you, you have abrupt jaunt, and don't care. He still dies, it's just a bit less stealthy.

The actual spell used for trashing systems varies. If you prefer to not electrocute things, Complete Mage has a first level spell that summons a 5ft cube of wood into existence for three rounds. That should be sufficient to crush all manner of things, and leave absolutely no evidence after the fact.

If you want more style, there's always True Strike and a weapon, though. Any weapon, non proficiency won't matter.

Create Water might work if you're willing to dip Cleric. Wrecking up an aircraft carrier with Orisons would be awesome :smallwink:

Tyndmyr

2012-01-13, 03:08 PM

Create Water might work if you're willing to dip Cleric. Wrecking up an aircraft carrier with Orisons would be awesome :smallwink:

The amount of casting you'd need to do for that would be rather prohibitive...the displacement on a modern carrier is immense.

That said, there's always launch bolt shenanigans if you want to have some fun with level 0 spells.

Weezer

2012-01-13, 03:15 PM

The amount of casting you'd need to do for that would be rather prohibitive...the displacement on a modern carrier is immense.

That said, there's always launch bolt shenanigans if you want to have some fun with level 0 spells.

I think he was planning on using the water to flood computers and the like, creating shorts and burning out the control system. Not trying to fill the whole ship with water.

Kyberwulf

2012-01-13, 03:31 PM

wow, for someone who supposedly would one shot the other....this thread has gone one WAY to long lol... methinks the playgrounders doth protest to much... maybe deep down, Volde would win... and you guys know it.. who are you trying to convince, cause no one is really arguing that voldemort would win. just food for thought

and on the whole ... My magic can steal me a boat comments. you guys seem to forgetting that the goverment, and the military would have Wizards and mages working for them. Better Trained .. and better equipped. so all your shinaniginas wouldn't be as easy as you think. :P

And also... Epic Level Wizard .. vs. Fighter.. according to Vecna vs. Kaz.... hey the fighter won.... so maybe Wizards aren't the cats meow... or maybe Vecna isn't as great as people make him out to be

^_^'

lol

Tavar

2012-01-13, 03:42 PM

The discussion left the primary topic some time ago, instead looking at other areas(Voldermort's effectiveness and the like). To suggest this means that there is doubt about one's arguments is just a tad dishonest.

Gullintanni

2012-01-13, 03:45 PM

I think he was planning on using the water to flood computers and the like, creating shorts and burning out the control system. Not trying to fill the whole ship with water.

You are correct sir.

Kyberwulf

2012-01-13, 03:49 PM

yeah but the filling up the room with water, could be stopped by a scrying Military wizard... or some other Divining method.

Gullintanni

2012-01-13, 03:51 PM

The point is that takes one first level cleric to pull off. The resource expenditure is virtually non existent. Plus all you need is line of effect to the target. No need to flood a room. Use a mace to make a hole. Fill the hole with water. Bam, instant flooded control systems.

Vecna also has access to incorporeal undead. One shadow would be enough to infiltrate and eliminate pretty much an entire army. Plus, he could easily energy drain people to death, resulting in the Wightpocalypse. One could argue that the greater the numbers leveraged against Vecna, the greater his advantage.

Coidzor

2012-01-13, 03:58 PM

yeah but the filling up the room with water, could be stopped by a scrying Military wizard... or some other Divining method.

Canonically, there are no HP wizards in service to muggles in such a capacity.

There's no reason to assume that there are D&D wizards in service to the sovereign nations of our world. The various wars we've had on down the years would've been at least marginally more interesting if such were the case.

So there's really no point in bringing that up.

Granted, there's not much point to the tangent about taking out an aircraft carrier with a 1st level wizard.

Lamech

2012-01-13, 04:27 PM

3.5 wizard v aircraft carrier: Okay first we should figure out what properties our plane has. Most things are normal and we'll assume magic is normal. But gravity? That's weird. Here in our world we have directional gravity. (Objective directional I think the technical term is.) Now what about the strength? Well, to figure that out we need to compare accelerations. In DnD in 6 seconds you fall... 150ft. In the real world you go... thousands of feet. Over twenty times the force in fact.

Since earth gravity is much, much higher than what our puny wizard is used to he has no way of standing and immediately falls, probably taking a few d6s of falling damage in the process. Then since he is now under twenty times the normal gravity he faces he'll start taking crushing damage. Our wizard crushed to the ground, unable to move, unable to even lift his tongue to speak dies shortly thereafter.

Hmm... normal humans are like Kryptonians* to DnD people.

*early versions of them when they still got their power from living on a high gravity world and jumped places instead of flying.

Axolotl

2012-01-13, 04:47 PM

In DnD in 6 seconds you fall... 150ft. In the real world you go... thousands of feet. I'm not a physicist but I'm fairly sure it'd only be about 570ish feet. Which is certainly much more than DnD but not that much. Which would put their gravity about a quater of ours I think? So we'd be more like John Carter than Superman.

Lamech

2012-01-13, 04:51 PM

I'm not a physicist but I'm fairly sure it'd only be about 570ish feet. Which is certainly much more than DnD but not that much. Which would put their gravity about a quater of ours I think? So we'd be more like John Carter than Superman.
Hmm... damn your right. Still a random 300lbs suddenly hitting a wizard will pin them to the ground.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-13, 05:05 PM

Hmm... damn your right. Still a random 300lbs suddenly hitting a wizard will pin them to the ground.

Though D&Dworld has no acceleration - you fall 150ft per round no matter how far you're falling, so we can't automatically assume it's simply a question of lower gravity. For that matter, it has no inertia either.

This is shaping up to be hilarious, and likely to murder catgirls by the dozens.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-13, 05:40 PM

Okay this is seriously getting stupid. No, this is not trolling, this is statement of fact.

stormtemplar

2012-01-13, 05:41 PM

BTW my view of deadly force in the potter world is twofold. Firstly, it takes a certain degree of power and psychological readiness to fire something deadly, so a weaker wizard might not be ABLE to shoot something deadly. Secondly, the killing curse is an instant kill even if it grazes, while other spells are more like bullets. It may kill, it may wound, it may turn you into a sea slug, but no guarantees.

Also, the average wizard could not shoot killing curses due to the fact that they (If they are anything like crucio which requires a great desire to harm for no purpose but to harm.) As the killing curse is vastly superior to any other curse, the weapon of the death eaters was superior to that of the average wizard.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-13, 06:03 PM

It's a +10 to Disguise Self. Suspicious observers, such as guards, by RAW, are taking 10 on spot, which opposes disguise.

So, even if you rolled a nat 1, you're good.

Power word pain can do up to 6 damage per round. Depending on stats and roll, that can in fact drop someone to unconciousness in a single round. Even if it does not, you literally have to say a single word, and a guy quite some distance away from you starts twitching in pain and dying. It has no save. It's a bit of a puzzler for someone who hasn't seen magic to figure out in six seconds and, even if he does and shoots at you, you have abrupt jaunt, and don't care. He still dies, it's just a bit less stealthy.

The actual spell used for trashing systems varies. If you prefer to not electrocute things, Complete Mage has a first level spell that summons a 5ft cube of wood into existence for three rounds. That should be sufficient to crush all manner of things, and leave absolutely no evidence after the fact.

If you want more style, there's always True Strike and a weapon, though. Any weapon, non proficiency won't matter.

I told you to not start. But what did you do? You completly ignored me. :smallsigh:

I guess I see you in the now inevitable real world vs D&D thread. Again. :smallannoyed:

Lamech

2012-01-13, 07:27 PM

Though D&Dworld has no acceleration - you fall 150ft per round no matter how far you're falling, so we can't automatically assume it's simply a question of lower gravity. For that matter, it has no inertia either.

This is shaping up to be hilarious, and likely to murder catgirls by the dozens.
No its 150 feet first round 300 feet per round in the second and later rounds. Although we have seriously derailed. I suppose I could use this to argue that 3.5 wizards have the serious problem of being much weaker and fragiler than HP wizards, but Vecna shouldn't even be 3.5 anyway.

Coidzor

2012-01-14, 02:20 AM

As the killing curse is vastly superior to any other curse, the weapon of the death eaters was superior to that of the average wizard.

In a single fight, eh, rendering someone unconscious takes them out of the fight as much as killing them does. Long term though, a side that only kills or mindrapes versus a side that maybe knocks one or two out is laughably stupid and of course it's going to be ineffective.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-16, 01:29 PM

yeah but the filling up the room with water, could be stopped by a scrying Military wizard... or some other Divining method.

The point isn't military wizards vs regular wizards, it's D&D wizard vs mundane reality to demonstrate the ludicrous power of D&D wizards.

Note that a HP wizard vs an aircraft carrier would be generally pretty bad off, especially considering that their best attack spell can be outperformed by a bog standard assault rifle.

I agree, Create Water could jack up computers...for the cleric, it's more about how he goes about getting to them.

3.5 wizard v aircraft carrier: Okay first we should figure out what properties our plane has. Most things are normal and we'll assume magic is normal. But gravity? That's weird. Here in our world we have directional gravity. (Objective directional I think the technical term is.) Now what about the strength? Well, to figure that out we need to compare accelerations. In DnD in 6 seconds you fall... 150ft. In the real world you go... thousands of feet. Over twenty times the force in fact.

In addition to having the math wrong, as already pointed out, it's clearly a result of the game rules for physics being fairly heavily abstracted. Given D&D carrying capacity being what it is, it's a fair bet that D&D folks are accustomed to gravity roughly equivalent to our own.

As for the derail...I regret nothing. The main topic is pretty clear, and Vecna wins with a pimp hat on.

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-16, 01:34 PM

As for the derail...I regret nothing. The main topic is pretty clear, and Vecna wins with a pimp hat on.

Is...is it wrong I would actually like to see that?

Gullintanni

2012-01-16, 01:57 PM

I suppose I could use this to argue that 3.5 wizards have the serious problem of being much weaker and fragiler than HP wizards, but Vecna shouldn't even be 3.5 anyway.

Kind of a moot point given that Vecna doesn't have the HD of a Wizard. Vecna has the HD of a Lich.

Coidzor

2012-01-16, 02:00 PM

Is...is it wrong I would actually like to see that?

No. Pimp versions of D&D characters are always good to see, ever since they invented Pimp Krusk.

Traab

2012-01-16, 02:14 PM

The point isn't military wizards vs regular wizards, it's D&D wizard vs mundane reality to demonstrate the ludicrous power of D&D wizards.

Note that a HP wizard vs an aircraft carrier would be generally pretty bad off, especially considering that their best attack spell can be outperformed by a bog standard assault rifle.

I agree, Create Water could jack up computers...for the cleric, it's more about how he goes about getting to them.

In addition to having the math wrong, as already pointed out, it's clearly a result of the game rules for physics being fairly heavily abstracted. Given D&D carrying capacity being what it is, it's a fair bet that D&D folks are accustomed to gravity roughly equivalent to our own.

As for the derail...I regret nothing. The main topic is pretty clear, and Vecna wins with a pimp hat on.

Cant hp magic screw up electronics just by being used near them? Seems to me that a hp wizard could make himself invisible, sneak onto the ship, cast like gangbusters, and apparate out after frying everything nearby. Wouldnt sink the thing, but it would ruin its ability to do anything. Also, their "best spell" is only that when used against a living target, there are plenty of things that could be done to an aircraft carrier, like transfiguring portions of the hull into paper. Hp wizards can also create water. So the same tactic would apply as for D&D wizards, if not easier, not sure of the relative volume each is capable of producing.

Coidzor

2012-01-16, 02:20 PM

Yes, a savvy HP wizard could take out an aircraft carrier.

A savvier one could take over the aircraft carrier and have it tool around as a rogue ship, giving everyone on the planet grief and forcing the muggles to take down their own and sowing a lot of confusion and fear.

A really, really savvy wizard would find all of the world's nuclear submarines, teleport invisibly onto them, make everyone on them their mindslave, and then have them cease contact with their nation-states in order to really freak out the muggles and potentially get them to start offing each other in short order.

Coidzor

2012-01-16, 02:22 PM

Tyndmyr

2012-01-16, 02:40 PM

Cant hp magic screw up electronics just by being used near them? Seems to me that a hp wizard could make himself invisible, sneak onto the ship, cast like gangbusters, and apparate out after frying everything nearby. Wouldnt sink the thing, but it would ruin its ability to do anything. Also, their "best spell" is only that when used against a living target, there are plenty of things that could be done to an aircraft carrier, like transfiguring portions of the hull into paper. Hp wizards can also create water. So the same tactic would apply as for D&D wizards, if not easier, not sure of the relative volume each is capable of producing.

Yes....but it's a fairly talented wizard that can pull this off. For instance, relying an apparating means that basically none of the students in HP could do so. Even invisibility appears to be something that isn't maintained while casting and can't normally be done well with a magic item. Could get you in, probably, assuming nobody heard you or bumped into you, but is still fairly notable on the difficulty level of HP spells. Transmuting the hull is not a direction I took with the D&D caster because, frankly, any modern ship will have watertight bulkheads everywhere, so taking the ship out that way is difficult. Too much widely separated stuff to target, more chances for things to go wrong. Nah, you want to take out the flight deck or the controls, and controls are a lot more private.

Xondoure

2012-01-16, 03:14 PM

Yes....but it's a fairly talented wizard that can pull this off. For instance, relying an apparating means that basically none of the students in HP could do so. Even invisibility appears to be something that isn't maintained while casting and can't normally be done well with a magic item. Could get you in, probably, assuming nobody heard you or bumped into you, but is still fairly notable on the difficulty level of HP spells. Transmuting the hull is not a direction I took with the D&D caster because, frankly, any modern ship will have watertight bulkheads everywhere, so taking the ship out that way is difficult. Too much widely separated stuff to target, more chances for things to go wrong. Nah, you want to take out the flight deck or the controls, and controls are a lot more private.

You're right. Children would not be able to take down the carrier with that strategy (I'm sure we could think of others.)

However considering a first level wizard in D&D is at minimum in their early twenties, neither could they.

TheCountAlucard

2012-01-16, 04:12 PM

However considering a first level wizard in D&D is at minimum in their early twenties, neither could they.Actually, a first-level wizard in D&D is at minimum age 16-17. :smalltongue:

Traab

2012-01-16, 04:40 PM

Actually, a first-level wizard in D&D is at minimum age 16-17. :smalltongue:

Which is the age hp wizards learn to apparate. :smallbiggrin: And tyn, apparating would just be the fastest way to leave after you are all done. Invisibility cloaks are something a young wizard could buy, or get out of his family vault, or they just learn how to cast dissilusionment. Its not beyond their capabilities, it just isnt on the hogwarts syllabus. And really, the hardest part would be getting into a critical electronic section of the ship, staying invisible isnt really needed after that point. Just start shooting off magic as fast as you can, wreck the hell out of whatever you can blow up with a reducto, and then apparate out. Worst case scenario, stupefy anyone blocking your entrance. Or, as the hp crew proved its possible for 17 year olds to use the unforgiveables, mind control people to let you on. A hp wizard could take out a carrier at graduation age, perhaps sooner, depending on relative skill levels.

Lamech

2012-01-16, 04:54 PM

In addition to having the math wrong, as already pointed out, it's clearly a result of the game rules for physics being fairly heavily abstracted. Given D&D carrying capacity being what it is, it's a fair bet that D&D folks are accustomed to gravity roughly equivalent to our own.

Yes, a mere *4 gravity. Its still enough leave the wizard unable to stand. And no its in no way shape or form a result of abstracting it. 4th edition abstracts it as well but it has you falling at roughly 500 feet giving roughly earth gravity. The 3.5 designers have a lower gravity, either because they didn't care about it or they deliberately chose to lower it.

Actually, a first-level wizard in D&D is at minimum age 16-17.Those are half-orcs I believe. But still apperating and such is age 17 wizard stuff.

Yes....but it's a fairly talented wizard that can pull this off. For instance, relying an apparating means that basically none of the students in HP could do so. Even invisibility appears to be something that isn't maintained while casting and can't normally be done well with a magic item. Could get you in, probably, assuming nobody heard you or bumped into you, but is still fairly notable on the difficulty level of HP spells. Transmuting the hull is not a direction I took with the D&D caster because, frankly, any modern ship will have watertight bulkheads everywhere, so taking the ship out that way is difficult. Too much widely separated stuff to target, more chances for things to go wrong. Nah, you want to take out the flight deck or the controls, and controls are a lot more private. Umm, invisiblity spells are infused in prank toys. Headless Hats had an infused invisibility spell. They got sold at a prank store. They could also just waltz up to the hull and start destroying it from there. (I don't think aircraft carriers are really designed to kill humans attached to the underside of the hull) Shapeshift as a crew member and start the mass mind control.
The only reason why a HP wizard would have any trouble with a battle muggles is because they don't even know what a gun is.

TheOasysMaster

2012-01-16, 05:08 PM

The only reason why a HP wizard would have any trouble with a battle muggles is because they don't even know what a gun is.
Or what an aircraft carrier is.
How is the HP wizard supposed to be able to tell the difference between the nuclear systems of the carrier and say...
The compuer that controls the water pressure of the showers?

See, the HP wizard has to find the critical systems.
D&D wizard, wall of force, and watch that baby sink.

Ravens_cry

2012-01-16, 05:21 PM

Not to mention that aircraft carrier DO have point defence systems, technically known as "close-in weapon systems", like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS).
The wizard isn't just paste, they're vapour.

Traab

2012-01-16, 06:16 PM

Or what an aircraft carrier is.
How is the HP wizard supposed to be able to tell the difference between the nuclear systems of the carrier and say...
The compuer that controls the water pressure of the showers?

See, the HP wizard has to find the critical systems.
D&D wizard, wall of force, and watch that baby sink.

Metal to paper, ship sinks. Wizard never has to even enter the damn boat. Fly a broom while disillusioned to the water line, and transfigure as much of it as you can into some sort of easily destroyed element, then cast it again a few feet further down. Keep doing it till it sinks. Do it at night and its doubtful you would even be spotted. Hp wizards learn basic inanimate to inanimate transfiguration in their first year. No way to be sure when metal to paper might be possible, or metal to porcelain, or metal to glass, or metal to salt, or metal to rubidium. :smallbiggrin: Yeah I know that last one wont happen, but it could be amusing, and if its a large enough chunk, it might even do extra damage.

Weezer

2012-01-16, 07:30 PM

Umm, invisiblity spells are infused in prank toys. Headless Hats had an infused invisibility spell. They got sold at a prank store. They could also just waltz up to the hull and start destroying it from there. (I don't think aircraft carriers are really designed to kill humans attached to the underside of the hull) Shapeshift as a crew member and start the mass mind control.
The only reason why a HP wizard would have any trouble with a battle muggles is because they don't even know what a gun is.

The thing is that Fred and George are repeatedly mentioned as being exceptional wizards, who just happen to refuse to do anything serious. Ever. Why else would the Ministry order 200+ of their shield amulets except for the fact that no one else can make them. Fred and George designed and created powerful magic items that no one else in universe demonstrated the ability or knowledge of how to make them, that's why they were so instantly successful, no one could stand up to their product.

Traab

2012-01-16, 08:15 PM

The thing is that Fred and George are repeatedly mentioned as being exceptional wizards, who just happen to refuse to do anything serious. Ever. Why else would the Ministry order 200+ of their shield amulets except for the fact that no one else can make them. Fred and George designed and created powerful magic items that no one else in universe demonstrated the ability or knowledge of how to make them, that's why they were so instantly successful, no one could stand up to their product.

Except invisibility cloaks already exist. And I dont mean harrys ultimate cloak of deathly awesomeness. So wearing items that make you invisible is not some unknown magic lost in the dust of history, the weasleys just made it funny by making it only effect part of your body. As well, turning yourself invisible isnt exactly an esoteric bit of magic either, nobody wasted time gaping and exclaiming their shock and awe when moody disillusioned harry as they made their escape from durzkaban.

Weezer

2012-01-16, 08:23 PM

Except invisibility cloaks already exist. And I dont mean harrys ultimate cloak of deathly awesomeness. So wearing items that make you invisible is not some unknown magic lost in the dust of history, the weasleys just made it funny by making it only effect part of your body. As well, turning yourself invisible isnt exactly an esoteric bit of magic either, nobody wasted time gaping and exclaiming their shock and awe when moody disillusioned harry as they made their escape from durzkaban.

They're still pretty uncommon magic items, we see I think one other besides Harry's in the whole series and that's Moody's. Also dissilusionment charms powerful enough to render someone truly invisible can only be cast by the most powerful and skilled wizards, they aren't ever thrown around by your average trained wizard. Moody is known to be a powerful wizard and the people rescuing Harry would know the plan already, so they wouldn't be surprised when he disillusioned Harry.

Traab

2012-01-16, 09:56 PM

They're still pretty uncommon magic items, we see I think one other besides Harry's in the whole series and that's Moody's. Also dissilusionment charms powerful enough to render someone truly invisible can only be cast by the most powerful and skilled wizards, they aren't ever thrown around by your average trained wizard. Moody is known to be a powerful wizard and the people rescuing Harry would know the plan already, so they wouldn't be surprised when he disillusioned Harry.

Where did you get that only really strong wizards can cast disillusionment? And even if it isnt perfect, just a predator cloak style blurring, it would be more then enough to sneak up on a carrier in the middle of the night on a broom. Also, wasnt arthur under a cloak when he got bitten at the department of mysteries? Dunno if they just traded off on the same cloak, its never actually said afaik, but still, it is possible to get your hands on them if you need to.

Weezer

2012-01-16, 10:56 PM

Where did you get that only really strong wizards can cast disillusionment? And even if it isnt perfect, just a predator cloak style blurring, it would be more then enough to sneak up on a carrier in the middle of the night on a broom. Also, wasnt arthur under a cloak when he got bitten at the department of mysteries? Dunno if they just traded off on the same cloak, its never actually said afaik, but still, it is possible to get your hands on them if you need to.

Only really strong wizards cast it so well that it approximates invisibility, it's specifically noted how impressive it is for Dumbledore and Voldemort to use the spell to become completely invisible. I'm almost certain they passed the cloak around, I distinctly remember them mentioning having to get the cloak from Moody, or from the previous person who borrowed it a number of times, as well as people who were not Moody explicitly using Moody's cloak.

P.S. This is something I noticed over the past chunk of time, but do we ever agree...?

Traab

2012-01-16, 11:26 PM

Only really strong wizards cast it so well that it approximates invisibility, it's specifically noted how impressive it is for Dumbledore and Voldemort to use the spell to become completely invisible. I'm almost certain they passed the cloak around, I distinctly remember them mentioning having to get the cloak from Moody, or from the previous person who borrowed it a number of times, as well as people who were not Moody explicitly using Moody's cloak.

P.S. This is something I noticed over the past chunk of time, but do we ever agree...?

Hmph, I never noticed that we dont agree! :smallbiggrin: Ok, I can buy that you need to be really powerful to go fully invisible, but even the extent that others can do, with a chameleon style effect similar to the predator cloak, would be enough to aid in sneaking up on the outside of the carrier to do your damage. Especially when you consider that at sea there isnt a lot of rapid changes in the background to create the blurring effect as strongly as say, dashing through a building. And thats assuming they even NEED to go invisible to sneak up. There is always approaching it at night on broomstick for example.

Its not like the hp wizards need to sneak on board, find the nuclear reactor, and do some complicated mojo, I still havent heard any reason why transfiguring chunks of hull into cheddar cheese or something wouldnt work. Yes im sure there are ways to seal off breaches, but put enough of them on the hull in enough places and eventually, that thing is going to sink. And being at point blank range on the underside of the carrier, I dont see how they would be able to do much to stop it. here is a picture of a carrier (http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3 Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Daircraft%2Bcarrier%2Bpictures&w=160&h=120&imgurl=www.bing.com%2Fimages%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Daircra ft%2Bcarrier%2Bpictures%23focal%3Dd79357be5f1600a5 360ee4e896fec1ba%26furl%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252flh6.g gpht.com%252f_KJ-wX61DZpU%252fTAfS-EEG29I%252fAAAAAAAAACA%252fAiohXB6BnI4%252fAircraf t-Carrier-09.jpg&size=&name=search&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fimages%2Fsearch% 3Fq%3Daircraft%2Bcarrier%2Bpictures%23focal%3Dd793 57be5f1600a5360ee4e896fec1ba%26furl%3Dhttp%253a%25 2f%252flh6.ggpht.com%252f_KJ-wX61DZpU%252fTAfS-EEG29I%252fAAAAAAAAACA%252fAiohXB6BnI4%252fAircraf t-Carrier-09.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fimages%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Daircraft%2Bcarrier%2Bpictures%23focal%3Dd7935 7be5f1600a5360ee4e896fec1ba%26furl%3Dhttp%253a%252 f%252flh6.ggpht.com%252f_KJ-wX61DZpU%252fTAfS-EEG29I%252fAAAAAAAAACA%252fAiohXB6BnI4%252fAircraf t-Carrier-09.jpg&p=aircraft+carrier&type=&no=1&tt=115&oid=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fimages%2Fthumbn ail.aspx%3Fq%3D1445134674119%26id%3D304425cc1c40ef a90fb65a9c73e8e3f5&tit=Aircraft+Carrier+Photos+-+Pictures+of+Aircraft+Warship+-+US+Navy&sigr=16n4ighoc&sigi=16gne625d&sigb=1233a5m89&fr=yfp-t-465-1) I dont see any windows near the waterline, and with the shape of the carrier, you cant exactly lean over the edge and shoot someone down who is 15 feet from your hull.

Weezer

2012-01-16, 11:31 PM

Traab

2012-01-17, 12:52 AM

Maybe I'm just making things up in my head, it's been known to happen.

I see your point, a low-flying mostly invisible wizard would be able to easily sneak up on a carrier and transmogrify some part of the hull into paper or whatever (though cheese wouldn't work, can't change anything into food, it's one of Rowlings BS rules that wasn't mentioned until the last book and was only introduced to add some artificial hardness to the trio's plight :smallmad:).

Hmm, interesting thought I just had. Think they could turn the hull into solid rust? Basically, its fragile as hell, but will hold the weight till a very large portion is transformed then hit by a blasting hex? Far more catastrophic that way if instead of single 5 foot by 5 foot patches or whatever size the wizard can handle per shot, get ruined and sealed off, the entire starboard side of the aircraft carrier shatters at the same time.

Fan

2012-01-17, 08:08 AM

Hmm, interesting thought I just had. Think they could turn the hull into solid rust? Basically, its fragile as hell, but will hold the weight till a very large portion is transformed then hit by a blasting hex? Far more catastrophic that way if instead of single 5 foot by 5 foot patches or whatever size the wizard can handle per shot, get ruined and sealed off, the entire starboard side of the aircraft carrier shatters at the same time.

That is until someone notices this, and just opens fire in a spray arc on that side of the hull.

I'm confident in a naval carriers ability to fill space with bullets.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-17, 08:25 AM

That is until someone notices this, and just opens fire in a spray arc on that side of the hull.

I'm confident in a naval carriers ability to fill space with bullets.

Point defense does have a limited firing arc, you know. If said wizard is tucked up against the hull itself, the vulcans won't be able to target him (by design, to prevent them from shooting their own hull full of bullets).

Fan

2012-01-17, 08:41 AM

Point defense does have a limited firing arc, you know. If said wizard is tucked up against the hull itself, the vulcans won't be able to target him (by design, to prevent them from shooting their own hull full of bullets).

I was more talking about the people with guns, rather than the machines with guns.

Traab

2012-01-17, 08:45 AM

I was more talking about the people with guns, rather than the machines with guns.

So they would blind fire their guns and shatter their own rusty hull with bullets, hoping to randomly nail the wizard? Bonus, it saves the wizard from having to use exploding curses on the boat himself.

Gullintanni

2012-01-17, 08:50 AM

So they would blind fire their guns and shatter their own rusty hull with bullets, hoping to randomly nail the wizard? Bonus, it saves the wizard from having to use exploding curses on the boat himself.

On the other hand, Invisibility is pretty rare in the HP-verse, and I've seen no evidence that wizards move faster than bullets. A handful of sharpshooters would be more than enough to end the threat.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-17, 08:56 AM

Actually, a first-level wizard in D&D is at minimum age 16-17. :smalltongue:

Varies wildly depending on race. =)

Also, if you allow Mongoose, you can pull off casting as a baby.

Which is the age hp wizards learn to apparate. :smallbiggrin: And tyn, apparating would just be the fastest way to leave after you are all done. Invisibility cloaks are something a young wizard could buy, or get out of his family vault, or they just learn how to cast dissilusionment.

Invisibility cloaks other than HP's are sort of rubbish, and a great deal more limited. Disillusionment is a doable thing, but you have the basic invisibility problems I already pointed out. Being heard, someone bumping into you, these are possibilities. A disguise check so good that you auto-pass an alert wary guard's spot check? That's a win.

Or, as the hp crew proved its possible for 17 year olds to use the unforgiveables, mind control people to let you on. A hp wizard could take out a carrier at graduation age, perhaps sooner, depending on relative skill levels.

The ability to use unforgiveables effectively at 17 yrs old is not guaranteed at all. Notably, Harry tries and fails to do anything notable to Beatrix. There's more to this that mere age.

Yes, a mere *4 gravity. Its still enough leave the wizard unable to stand. And no its in no way shape or form a result of abstracting it. 4th edition abstracts it as well but it has you falling at roughly 500 feet giving roughly earth gravity. The 3.5 designers have a lower gravity, either because they didn't care about it or they deliberately chose to lower it.

No. The rules do not model gravity well, nor were they intended to do so.

Furthermore, as the source of the initial 150 feet/round is that of a flying creature failing to maintain sufficient forward momentum, not the generic falling rules(which contain no such limitations), they are a bad source for extrapolation, as most flying creatures have wings, etc which will likely reduce their rate of falling.

The best you can conclude is that 3.5 physics are not entirely like ours, if you take them entirely seriously.

Where did you get that only really strong wizards can cast disillusionment? And even if it isnt perfect, just a predator cloak style blurring, it would be more then enough to sneak up on a carrier in the middle of the night on a broom.

This plan results in an unidentified aerial radar contact rapidly approaching an aircraft carrier, not responding to radio attempts to contact it. Target-ting systems could care less about your visual obfuscations. Minigun trumps invisibility cloak.

Traab

2012-01-17, 09:00 AM

On the other hand, Invisibility is pretty rare in the HP-verse, and I've seen no evidence that wizards move faster than bullets. A handful of sharpshooters would be more than enough to end the threat.

The thing is, I was looking at the picture of an aircraft carrier, and I saw no portholes or other ways to see out the side of the ship, and the deck of the carrier is built so that it slopes in underneath it. So there is no way for the soldiers to shoot at the wizard while he is there transfiguring the hull until chunks of it fall off. Thats what I meant by blind firing. They would have to dash to the sections that just turned to rust and randomly shoot through them to try and hope to hit the wizard, even though he has likely already moved on, and if he isnt stupid, isnt transfiguring the chunks of hull directly in front of himself.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-17, 09:10 AM

The thing is, I was looking at the picture of an aircraft carrier, and I saw no portholes or other ways to see out the side of the ship, and the deck of the carrier is built so that it slopes in underneath it. So there is no way for the soldiers to shoot at the wizard while he is there transfiguring the hull until chunks of it fall off. Thats what I meant by blind firing. They would have to dash to the sections that just turned to rust and randomly shoot through them to try and hope to hit the wizard, even though he has likely already moved on, and if he isnt stupid, isnt transfiguring the chunks of hull directly in front of himself.

That's not really how they deal with underwater threats...First off, they have sonar for detections, not peering through portals. Secondly, they have explosives, like depth charges(though typically this is more of an escort role, you can basically expect any carrier to have escorts nearby). Hell, hand grenades would suffice against divers, given how much explosions are amplified by water, but the lack of stealth on approach is the first problem to overcome....because a HP wizard diver really isn't that different from a bog standard real-world diver. I would assume that standard defenses against the latter would stop the former.

Traab

2012-01-17, 10:04 AM

Tyndmyr

2012-01-17, 10:25 AM

I didnt actually think the wizard would go underwater, he would be at the waterline, transfiguring the hull at that point into whatever the hell weak material you can think of as reasonable. Enough of the hull transfigured would be underwater to start the flooding process. As for the approach, once again, a nighttime approach, on broom, just above the surface of the water. No sonar would spot them as he is above the ocean, and wouldnt their radar be rather ineffective against such a small target?

I recall that, in reading the history of the Blackbird's creation, incorrectly installed screws were sufficient to make it show up on radar. A human has a vastly large radar signature than a screw. Given that the strategy of the minigun targetting system is "fill the entire area of sky with ridiculous amounts of flying lead", this is as unlikely to work as a human on a hang glider or other such strategies.

Gullintanni

2012-01-17, 11:00 AM

The thing is, I was looking at the picture of an aircraft carrier, and I saw no portholes or other ways to see out the side of the ship, and the deck of the carrier is built so that it slopes in underneath it. So there is no way for the soldiers to shoot at the wizard while he is there transfiguring the hull until chunks of it fall off. Thats what I meant by blind firing. They would have to dash to the sections that just turned to rust and randomly shoot through them to try and hope to hit the wizard, even though he has likely already moved on, and if he isnt stupid, isnt transfiguring the chunks of hull directly in front of himself.

This defense makes two assumptions:

1) That Aircraft Carriers can not defend themselves against man sized threats from close proximity.

I'm willing to grant this, provisionally. I'm not sure if a Carrier can launch waterborn vessels that could engage in precise tactical defense.

2) That Aircraft Carriers ever travel unescorted.

This I'm not really willing to grant, given the lack of ship-to-ship defenses on most Aircraft Carriers. You station your sharpshooters on adjacent craft. Your wizard dies.

Traab

2012-01-17, 11:09 AM

I recall that, in reading the history of the Blackbird's creation, incorrectly installed screws were sufficient to make it show up on radar. A human has a vastly large radar signature than a screw. Given that the strategy of the minigun targetting system is "fill the entire area of sky with ridiculous amounts of flying lead", this is as unlikely to work as a human on a hang glider or other such strategies.

I dont think its the screws specifically that show up on radar, its that the improperly placed screw messes up the precisely formed profile of the plane, making it appear on radar. Suddenly the signal is now smacking up against the rest of the craft because the radar isnt moving smoothly past it anymore as its supposed to.

2) That Aircraft Carriers ever travel unescorted.

This I'm not really willing to grant, given the lack of ship-to-ship defenses on most Aircraft Carriers. You station your sharpshooters on adjacent craft. Your wizard dies.

As true as this may be, that wasnt the question. It wasnt, "What can a wizard do against an aircraft carrier plus all its escorts?" It was, "What can a wizard do against the carrier?"

Forum Explorer

2012-01-17, 12:00 PM

The point defense if I remember correctly is meant to intercept things like missiles. Most of which aren't bigger then a human either but are much much faster.

Finally you are assuming that the Carrier is staying still. They can move at a pretty decent speed. Flying at night, low by the waves trying to hang on to a slippery broom while pulling out a equally slippery wand and managing to cast an incredibly difficult spell in a continuous amount in order to deal sufficient damage? I don't think any but the very best of their wizards could do this.

Oh and how are they finding the Carrier? Its not like the wizard is capable of using GPS or listening in on radio signals. Yes a Carrier is big, but the ocean is much bigger.

Traab

2012-01-17, 12:07 PM

Gullintanni

2012-01-17, 12:15 PM

As true as this may be, that wasnt the question. It wasnt, "What can a wizard do against an aircraft carrier plus all its escorts?" It was, "What can a wizard do against the carrier?"

Fine, I'll give you that. But even then, the equation only changes by a small amount. Aircraft carriers carry a complement of helicopters and fighters jets that are assumed to be part of its weapon systems. At that point, I'd just fly out a few helicopters and have my sharpshooters using those as their staging platforms.

Woe betide the Wizard should that Aircraft carrier be carrying Drones.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-17, 12:15 PM

I dont think its the screws specifically that show up on radar, its that the improperly placed screw messes up the precisely formed profile of the plane, making it appear on radar. Suddenly the signal is now smacking up against the rest of the craft because the radar isnt moving smoothly past it anymore as its supposed to.

I don't know how this is coherent at all. Either something absorbs or it reflects. It does not reflect off part B because part A is incorrectly formed. You CAN have a partially stealthed aircraft, it's just pretty pointless, because a lock is a lock.

And yes, targeting missiles is something Aegis explicitly does. In HP, the wizards on a broom do not appear to be nearly as fast as missiles, so there should be no problem in targeting them.

As true as this may be, that wasnt the question. It wasnt, "What can a wizard do against an aircraft carrier plus all its escorts?" It was, "What can a wizard do against the carrier?"

Well yes, but we're not pitting the wizard vs a carrier on land, are we? You rather expect the carrier to be in it's natural routines.

The reason I took the route of infiltration when it's docked up for the 3.5 caster is because docking is entirely normal, as is people going ashore. It's practical and reliable.

Traab

2012-01-17, 12:27 PM

I don't know how this is coherent at all. Either something absorbs or it reflects. It does not reflect off part B because part A is incorrectly formed. You CAN have a partially stealthed aircraft, it's just pretty pointless, because a lock is a lock.

And yes, targeting missiles is something Aegis explicitly does. In HP, the wizards on a broom do not appear to be nearly as fast as missiles, so there should be no problem in targeting them.

Well yes, but we're not pitting the wizard vs a carrier on land, are we? You rather expect the carrier to be in it's natural routines.

The reason I took the route of infiltration when it's docked up for the 3.5 caster is because docking is entirely normal, as is people going ashore. It's practical and reliable.

The hp wizard can go the docking route too. The carrier is just as crippled by gaping holes in its hull in a docking bay as it would be 200 miles out to sea. It just wont be sinking a couple miles straight down.

Just as a point of order, ive been looking at the specs on various anti ship missiles, and im seeing sizes of 12-15+ feet in length, thats just a bit bigger than a 5 foot 7 inch wizard on a broom. I dont know the limits of their targetting tech, how small of a target they can latch onto and hit reliably, so I wont try and claim a wizard could just fly by without being directly targetted because he is too small, I just wanted to point out that missiles seem to be 2-3x larger than wizards on average.

Lamech

2012-01-17, 12:37 PM

The wizard should be teleporting anyway, so why is he approaching on a broom? And the DnD wizard isn't having all these problems because?

Xondoure

2012-01-17, 12:43 PM

The wizard should be teleporting anyway, so why is he approaching on a broom? And the DnD wizard isn't having all these problems because?

This.

Personally I think this would be fairly simple: take broom, apparate to carrier, unscrew volatile potion on the upwind side of the hull and make a quick whip around. Apparate out.

Weezer

2012-01-17, 12:45 PM

The hp wizard can go the docking route too. The carrier is just as crippled by gaping holes in its hull in a docking bay as it would be 200 miles out to sea. It just wont be sinking a couple miles straight down.

Just as a point of order, ive been looking at the specs on various anti ship missiles, and im seeing sizes of 12-15+ feet in length, thats just a bit bigger than a 5 foot 7 inch wizard on a broom. I dont know the limits of their targetting tech, how small of a target they can latch onto and hit reliably, so I wont try and claim a wizard could just fly by without being directly targetted because he is too small, I just wanted to point out that missiles seem to be 2-3x larger than wizards on average.

Also another key difference is the material, missiles are metal whereas wizards are flesh, this would vastly reduce the amount of reflected radio waves as well as make what was reflected have unusual characteristics. I personally don't know enough about the specifications of carrier radar to evaluate whether it would be enough of a difference to make a single human impossible to detect, but I can be sure that it would make detection far harder than the difficulty present in detecting missiles. And if the wizard flies low enough the noise from the ocean would also increase the difficulty of detecting the wizard. I don't think the radar detection is quite as cut and dried as some people are making it out to be.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-17, 12:50 PM

The hp wizard can go the docking route too. The carrier is just as crippled by gaping holes in its hull in a docking bay as it would be 200 miles out to sea. It just wont be sinking a couple miles straight down.

Just as a point of order, ive been looking at the specs on various anti ship missiles, and im seeing sizes of 12-15+ feet in length, thats just a bit bigger than a 5 foot 7 inch wizard on a broom. I dont know the limits of their targetting tech, how small of a target they can latch onto and hit reliably, so I wont try and claim a wizard could just fly by without being directly targetted because he is too small, I just wanted to point out that missiles seem to be 2-3x larger than wizards on average.

Well, I've already given you the screws example. A few screws are rather a lot smaller than a human. Drones and missiles are often larger than humans, yes, but it's a bit ridiculous to assume that they don't have a margin for error/new tech on there.

It's a dangerous strategy.

The wizard should be teleporting anyway, so why is he approaching on a broom? And the DnD wizard isn't having all these problems because?

Because the D&D wizard is walking on at port, and thanks to Disguise Self, he appears to be one of the ships sailors with enough of a bonus to guarantee non detection from even an alert, wary guard by RAW.

This is vastly less problematic.

Traab

2012-01-17, 12:51 PM

The wizard should be teleporting anyway, so why is he approaching on a broom? And the DnD wizard isn't having all these problems because?

Well, he has to know where the carrier is before he can apparate onto it. So once he gets within eye shot he could probably put away the broom and do things that way. I guess wizards could it it with scrying first to determine where they should teleport to.

Are glamour charms canon or fanon? Ive read way too much fanfiction to recall for sure, but if they are canon, bushwack a sailor on leave, put on an illusion to look like him and walk onto the boat. Or just use a notice me not charm and walk on board. They wont even see you walk on. Once again, assuming im not confusing fanon for canon.

Weezer

2012-01-17, 01:28 PM

Well with a little effort you can make a polyjuice potion that will make you look indistinguisable from a bushwhacked sailor, so if anything the HP wizard has a step up on the infiltration front.

Traab

2012-01-17, 01:31 PM

Well with a little effort you can make a polyjuice potion that will make you look indistinguisable from a bushwhacked sailor, so if anything the HP wizard has a step up on the infiltration front.

Damn good point. I totally forgot about that potion, and considering that hermione brewed it in secret in a bathroom in second year..... id say anyone who doesnt suck at potions would be able to handle making it. Just means planning ahead since it takes a month to brew. Bushwhack the sailor, steal his wallet and a couple hairs, and stroll onto the ship like you owned it.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-17, 02:26 PM

Because the D&D wizard is walking on at port, and thanks to Disguise Self, he appears to be one of the ships sailors with enough of a bonus to guarantee non detection from even an alert, wary guard by RAW.

This is vastly less problematic.

This wouldn't work. Because we don't run by D&D rules at all. You will find it very difficult to enter a military base unless you have proper identification and a code. **** a grocery store would beat Disguise Self let alone a military base.

Now a possible way to infiltrate would be to go invisible with a silence spell on top of it. Follow a sailor home. Use silenced dominate person until he fails. Use gaseous form to bottle yourself and get carried into the engine room. Sabotage certain parts with whatever spell you prefer. Teleport out.

Weezer

2012-01-17, 02:41 PM

Damn good point. I totally forgot about that potion, and considering that hermione brewed it in secret in a bathroom in second year..... id say anyone who doesnt suck at potions would be able to handle making it. Just means planning ahead since it takes a month to brew. Bushwhack the sailor, steal his wallet and a couple hairs, and stroll onto the ship like you owned it.

And probably it won't even require planning ahead, I don't see why any self respecting wizard would ever not have a decent supply of polyjuice potion ready to hand. Since the person that you turn into is determined at anytime after the potion is made there is no reason not to make a massive vat every few years and carry a vial with you at all times just in case. If it were me and I had a reason to be truly paranoid I would, in addition to two or three doses of the potion, keep a few hairs of random people on me in case I ever needed to escape something/someone.

Traab

2012-01-17, 02:52 PM

And probably it won't even require planning ahead, I don't see why any self respecting wizard would ever not have a decent supply of polyjuice potion ready to hand. Since the person that you turn into is determined at anytime after the potion is made there is no reason not to make a massive vat every few years and carry a vial with you at all times just in case. If it were me and I had a reason to be truly paranoid I would, in addition to two or three doses of the potion, keep a few hairs of random people on me in case I ever needed to escape something/someone.

Thats moody levels of paranoia, but you know what? We dont know if they sell premade potions like that which would dispense with the need to make your own and store it somehow. So its possible that random hp wizard could go to Premade Potions emPorium (:smallbiggrin:)down on knockturn, buy himself some polyjuice, and get right to work.

Zaydos

2012-01-18, 01:16 AM

And probably it won't even require planning ahead, I don't see why any self respecting wizard would ever not have a decent supply of polyjuice potion ready to hand. Since the person that you turn into is determined at anytime after the potion is made there is no reason not to make a massive vat every few years and carry a vial with you at all times just in case. If it were me and I had a reason to be truly paranoid I would, in addition to two or three doses of the potion, keep a few hairs of random people on me in case I ever needed to escape something/someone.

Polyjuice potions go bad, hence fake Moody had to keep the real one nearby to keep up appearances. It's been a while since I read the 4th book but he had to make a new potion every few days or week or so.

Venom3053000

2012-01-18, 01:56 AM

Polyjuice needs to be taken every hour

Traab

2012-01-18, 09:32 AM

Polyjuice needs to be taken every hour

And how long does it take to walk from the nearest out of sight corner after taking your dose, onto the carrier itself? I bet less than an hour. and a single batch of polyjuice holds far more than a single dose of the potion in it. Bare minimum three considering thats what harry ron and hermione took. So three hours of wearing an actual soldiers face. Steal his id and just walk on board. Sure getting to the important sections would likely be harder, unless you got supremely lucky and ganked a person who works there, but you are now on board and in a position to wreak some havoc.

Tiki Snakes

2012-01-18, 09:42 AM

And how long does it take to walk from the nearest out of sight corner after taking your dose, onto the carrier itself? I bet less than an hour. and a single batch of polyjuice holds far more than a single dose of the potion in it. Bare minimum three considering thats what harry ron and hermione took. So three hours of wearing an actual soldiers face. Steal his id and just walk on board. Sure getting to the important sections would likely be harder, unless you got supremely lucky and ganked a person who works there, but you are now on board and in a position to wreak some havoc.

Assuming you don't say anything wizardly stupid and get thrown in the bridge as an obvious imposter, anyway.

HP Wizards do not deal with muggle terminology well.

Traab

2012-01-18, 09:56 AM

Assuming you don't say anything wizardly stupid and get thrown in the bridge as an obvious imposter, anyway.

HP Wizards do not deal with muggle terminology well.

No, hp PUREBLOOD wizards tend to not deal with muggle terminology very well. The rather larger portion of halfbloods and muggleborn, on the other hand, would do just fine.

Weezer

2012-01-18, 10:26 AM

Polyjuice potions go bad, hence fake Moody had to keep the real one nearby to keep up appearances. It's been a while since I read the 4th book but he had to make a new potion every few days or week or so.

I always throught that was more due to the fact that he was drinking it constantly. Taking a significant drink of anything every hour of every day will blow through your supply pretty fast.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-18, 10:29 AM

This wouldn't work. Because we don't run by D&D rules at all. You will find it very difficult to enter a military base unless you have proper identification and a code. **** a grocery store would beat Disguise Self let alone a military base.

Now a possible way to infiltrate would be to go invisible with a silence spell on top of it. Follow a sailor home. Use silenced dominate person until he fails. Use gaseous form to bottle yourself and get carried into the engine room. Sabotage certain parts with whatever spell you prefer. Teleport out.

I'm military, and I have *never* had to show my CAC to board a ship. Hell, they give the public tours. That said, you could always ambush a sailor, take his id, and then cast disguise self to look like him. It's a trivially easy task for even a first level wizard.

Meh, D&D wizards level up so ridiculously fast that options become available extremely rapidly. Don't have to use the same way repeatedly.

And probably it won't even require planning ahead, I don't see why any self respecting wizard would ever not have a decent supply of polyjuice potion ready to hand. Since the person that you turn into is determined at anytime after the potion is made there is no reason not to make a massive vat every few years and carry a vial with you at all times just in case. If it were me and I had a reason to be truly paranoid I would, in addition to two or three doses of the potion, keep a few hairs of random people on me in case I ever needed to escape something/someone.

I have no idea why people don't brew potions in industrial quantities already. Felix Felicitus? Why would you NOT keep that around, and use it routinely? It solves SO many problems(albeit in a mostly deus ex machina sort of way), and it evidently keeps for a bit of time.

It really does seem that the biggest advantage is that D&D wizards end up being much smarter than HP wizards.

Lamech

2012-01-18, 10:40 AM

Assuming you don't say anything wizardly stupid and get thrown in the bridge as an obvious imposter, anyway.

HP Wizards do not deal with muggle terminology well.
Gosh if only you could somehow make everyone forget your mistake whenever you screwed up. Oh wait, HP wizards could do that. (Also note a DnD wizard doesn't even speak english, without burning a 3rd level spell.) And once again DnD wizards would still have the problem of saying stupid stuff.

It really does seem that the biggest advantage is that D&D wizards end up being much smarter than HP wizards.
Why are we assuming DnD wizards are any smarter? PCs maybe. But the standard NPCs? Have you seen the standard spell selections? Those guys are terrible.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-18, 10:45 AM

Gosh if only you could somehow make everyone forget your mistake whenever you screwed up. Oh wait, HP wizards could do that. (Also note a DnD wizard doesn't even speak english, without burning a 3rd level spell.) And once again DnD wizards would still have the problem of saying stupid stuff.

Common basically == English.

Why are we assuming DnD wizards are any smarter? PCs maybe. But the standard NPCs? Have you seen the standard spell selections? Those guys are terrible.

Yes. On the other hand, HP wizards figured out how to reverse time, and gleefully fail to make use of it in almost any situation where it would matter.

They are....ridiculously ignorant of muggle stuff as well. A D&D wizard at least tends to understand what the sword and board guy is doing, even if it's not something he intends to do himself.

Traab

2012-01-18, 11:30 AM

Common basically == English.

Yes. On the other hand, HP wizards figured out how to reverse time, and gleefully fail to make use of it in almost any situation where it would matter.

They are....ridiculously ignorant of muggle stuff as well. A D&D wizard at least tends to understand what the sword and board guy is doing, even if it's not something he intends to do himself.

Thats because the D&D wizard hasnt avoided being around the sword and board users for the last 12 generations. Also, didnt the whole time turner thing get a mention of people obliterating themselves from existence due to causing all sorts of paradoxes? The basic implication is you cant change things that you know happened. They never SAW buckbeack die, or saw a body, or anything else, so all they really knew is that they heard the noise of an axe hitting something solid. That left wriggle room. On the other hand, say a wizard with a time turner saw a muggle news report blowing the lid of the statute of secrecy. He KNOWS it happened, so he cant change it, and trying to think of work arounds that dont trigger a self immolating paradox can be rather difficult.

As far as potions like liquid luck, yeah, it makes no sense that the stuff isnt mass produced. There would have to be downsides not mentioned to explain it. The fact that they arent mentioned makes it into a plot hole.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-18, 11:35 AM

Thats because the D&D wizard hasnt avoided being around the sword and board users for the last 12 generations. Also, didnt the whole time turner thing get a mention of people obliterating themselves from existence due to causing all sorts of paradoxes? The basic implication is you cant change things that you know happened. They never SAW buckbeack die, or saw a body, or anything else, so all they really knew is that they heard the noise of an axe hitting something solid. That left wriggle room. On the other hand, say a wizard with a time turner saw a muggle news report blowing the lid of the statute of secrecy. He KNOWS it happened, so he cant change it, and trying to think of work arounds that dont trigger a self immolating paradox can be rather difficult.

Look at the second instance of it's use. If HP decided not to intervene...bampf, instant paradox.

So, why, the first time through the time loop, does he seem himself being saved? It could ONLY come from him, there is no wiggle room. Unless causality is bending itself to his whims and also deliberately avoiding paradox(ie, no risk), there's no consistent explanation.

Traab

2012-01-18, 12:31 PM

Look at the second instance of it's use. If HP decided not to intervene...bampf, instant paradox.

So, why, the first time through the time loop, does he seem himself being saved? It could ONLY come from him, there is no wiggle room. Unless causality is bending itself to his whims and also deliberately avoiding paradox(ie, no risk), there's no consistent explanation.

I cant deny thats a plot hole, hell, I brought that very same thing up in a discussion about harry potter plot holes. I suggested a possible start to the loop, something along the lines of, "Originally, harry passed out as the dementors swopped in for the kill. He didnt see sirius get kissed, he didnt see why he DIDNT get kissed, and when he woke up in the infirmary, he didnt get filled in on what happened. When hermione insisted on using the time turner, that allowed harry to get into position across the lake to save himself. No paradox because he never knew who or what saved him. But because he did it this time, past harry saw a glimpse of what happened, and was able to confirm that sirius wasnt kissed, which triggered off a stable time loop."

But thats just one theory that could explain it. Anyways, the general gist of the time turners as is explained to us is that a user absolutely cannot change events he knows have happened. So in my earlier example of a wizard seeing a news caster reveal the magical world on cable, he couldnt go back in time and avada kedavra the big mouth before she speaks, as that would be a paradox. However, he could do his best to ensure that as many places other than where he was standing lose power just before the broadcast. No paradox there because he doesnt KNOW the other towns saw it.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-18, 01:05 PM

I cant deny thats a plot hole, hell, I brought that very same thing up in a discussion about harry potter plot holes. I suggested a possible start to the loop, something along the lines of, "Originally, harry passed out as the dementors swopped in for the kill. He didnt see sirius get kissed, he didnt see why he DIDNT get kissed, and when he woke up in the infirmary, he didnt get filled in on what happened. When hermione insisted on using the time turner, that allowed harry to get into position across the lake to save himself. No paradox because he never knew who or what saved him. But because he did it this time, past harry saw a glimpse of what happened, and was able to confirm that sirius wasnt kissed, which triggered off a stable time loop."

But thats just one theory that could explain it. Anyways, the general gist of the time turners as is explained to us is that a user absolutely cannot change events he knows have happened. So in my earlier example of a wizard seeing a news caster reveal the magical world on cable, he couldnt go back in time and avada kedavra the big mouth before she speaks, as that would be a paradox. However, he could do his best to ensure that as many places other than where he was standing lose power just before the broadcast. No paradox there because he doesnt KNOW the other towns saw it.

But could you mind-wipe yourself and leave yourself some basic written instructions. Like you tell yourself to kill that guy but since you've been mind-wiped you don't know why.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-18, 01:22 PM

But could you mind-wipe yourself and leave yourself some basic written instructions. Like you tell yourself to kill that guy but since you've been mind-wiped you don't know why.

Or, the 3.5 wizard could just level up rapidly, cast teleport through time, and kill the HP wizard while he's a baby. No fancy spells, or anything...he's a baby. Just light the place on fire.

Weezer

2012-01-18, 01:30 PM

Or, the 3.5 wizard could just level up rapidly, cast teleport through time, and kill the HP wizard while he's a baby. No fancy spells, or anything...he's a baby. Just light the place on fire.

I think that if anything holds true in the HP universe it is that trying to kill your mortal enemy while he is still a baby is not the way to go.

Traab

2012-01-18, 01:40 PM

But could you mind-wipe yourself and leave yourself some basic written instructions. Like you tell yourself to kill that guy but since you've been mind-wiped you don't know why.

Look, it is a decent childrens series written by someone who made up new abilities on the fly because they sounded cool and would be an interesting deus ex machina to fix that books problem at the end. You really cant expect it all to make sense, or match up logically. How many editions of D&D have come out? How many spellbooks and updates and changes and still there are holes that players can exploit in some ludicrous way to do things obviously not intended by the creators?

Xondoure

2012-01-18, 02:11 PM

Thats because the D&D wizard hasnt avoided being around the sword and board users for the last 12 generations. Also, didnt the whole time turner thing get a mention of people obliterating themselves from existence due to causing all sorts of paradoxes? The basic implication is you cant change things that you know happened. They never SAW buckbeack die, or saw a body, or anything else, so all they really knew is that they heard the noise of an axe hitting something solid. That left wriggle room. On the other hand, say a wizard with a time turner saw a muggle news report blowing the lid of the statute of secrecy. He KNOWS it happened, so he cant change it, and trying to think of work arounds that dont trigger a self immolating paradox can be rather difficult.

As far as potions like liquid luck, yeah, it makes no sense that the stuff isnt mass produced. There would have to be downsides not mentioned to explain it. The fact that they arent mentioned makes it into a plot hole.

Not really a plot hole per se as she lists quite a few. The materials are too rare and expensive to mass produce, and overuse of the potion wears the effects as well as making you vulnerable because you expect the universe to bend and instead you snap. Also, it makes you a git. The only real question is why it wasn't used in key situations such as hunting down the locket, or Voldemort preparing to kill Harry potter. To which the answer might be luck only stretches so far against more powerful magic.

Lamech

2012-01-18, 03:50 PM

I was under the impression that with time turners the past could not be changed. No paradoxes. If you try to kill your grandfather you fail. Probably you fail by deciding against it. But if you are really strong-willed you might just end up with a heart attack. Or a stroke. Or a spell going wrong and exploding in your face.

So you can't change anything with time turners, its really tempting to change things, and its dangerous as hell if you try. Hence, not using time turners to a high degree of effectiveness is not much to show that HP wizards are stupid.

No where near the level of the lack of create food traps in standard DnD settings at least.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-19, 12:16 AM

Look, it is a decent childrens series written by someone who made up new abilities on the fly because they sounded cool and would be an interesting deus ex machina to fix that books problem at the end. You really cant expect it all to make sense, or match up logically. How many editions of D&D have come out? How many spellbooks and updates and changes and still there are holes that players can exploit in some ludicrous way to do things obviously not intended by the creators?

I can and do fully expect it to make sense. I expect the same from the D&D books and it is a point of continual frustration as they fail to meet my expectations.

Chirios

2012-01-19, 09:56 PM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2012-01-19, 09:59 PM

Vecna, pronounced Vechna, it "forever" in Serbian. I learned this yesterday.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-19, 10:30 PM

Xondoure

2012-01-19, 10:35 PM

Lamech

2012-01-19, 11:19 PM

People are drastically overstating Voldemorts abilities in this thread.

Harry Potter magic is horrifically weak. Voldemort isn't a wizard in D&D terms, he's a sorcerer, and a pretty crappy one at that. His spell list is almost completely dependent on his implement, his spell list su-hucks, and Harry Potter spells suck anyway.

Harry Potter spells are essentially beams of light with various effects, but the problem is that the spells travel at sub light speed. Hell they travel at sub sonic speeds. They travel slower than bullets. Harry Potter spells travel so slowly that it is possible to see them in their flight path. That is horrifically slow for an object designed for medium to long range killing. Given that HP spells even when cast silently have a significant somatic component, that means that a human, reasonably well trained in martial arts, could simply dodge the attacks, close the distance and then pummel the wizard into the ground.

D&D Wizards on the other hand are minor league gods, and from what I've read about Vecna, he was a badass wizard even before he ascended to godhood. Voldemort would get annihilated.
You seem to be forgetting a lot of spells for starters. Fiendfyre, sectumsempra, the blasting curse (explodes 12 people in one go!), Accio or even. None of those are the ray in flight style of spell. Two of them are area of effect, one of them is an auto-lock. Sectumsempra can't be seen as it flies (but we aren't even really sure of the targeting.)
Two, HP wizards are most certainly not sorcerers in DnD terms. They can learn as many spells as they want (and often times easier than a wizard), so they are like a wizard in that regard. The main difference would be that an HP wizard always has all there spells prepared, as opposed to a wizard who has to bother with those spell slot things. Advantage Voldy. In fact IIRC ADnD wizards had a limit to the number of spells known even, although I think it was int dependent, so Vecna wouldn't be overly concerned about that.
Most importantly in a straight up fight? A HP wizard casts much faster than a DnD wizard, vastly faster than an 2nd ADnD wizard. And from the thread a first edition ADnD wizard has even their quickest spells take 6 seconds, IIRC. A HP wizards on the other hand have been shown casting a dozen spells in as many seconds.
Oh and DnD spells have somatic and verbal parts too.

If this gets into a straight up fight for Vecna of this comes down to who is the better spell slinger something has gone horribly wrong for Vecna.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-20, 08:35 AM

Two, HP wizards are most certainly not sorcerers in DnD terms. They can learn as many spells as they want (and often times easier than a wizard), so they are like a wizard in that regard.

And they don't automatically get familiars....

Wait a minute...

D&D Wizards are Lightning Warriors!

Gullintanni

2012-01-20, 08:44 AM

Most importantly in a straight up fight? A HP wizard casts much faster than a DnD wizard, vastly faster than an 2nd ADnD wizard. And from the thread a first edition ADnD wizard has even their quickest spells take 6 seconds, IIRC. A HP wizards on the other hand have been shown casting a dozen spells in as many seconds.
Oh and DnD spells have somatic and verbal parts too.

If this gets into a straight up fight for Vecna of this comes down to who is the better spell slinger something has gone horribly wrong for Vecna.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the AD&D time dynamics. A spellcaster typically gets one spell every 60 seconds. An AD&D Fighter also gets one attack in the same time period. By that measure, an expert martial artist from today's world would absolutely demolish any AD&D fighter, as some of them are capable of performing many attacks per second.

In terms of 3.5 a typical spell requires three seconds to cast, assuming a standard action and a move action require approximately the same time to execute. A quickened spell happens much faster than that, and probably occurs at about the same speed as in HP.

Still, I wouldn't invest too much thought into trying to constrain Vecna's spellcasting within the framework of AD&D's combat mechanics. Down that road lies madness.

Traab

2012-01-20, 10:04 AM

You seem to be forgetting a lot of spells for starters. Fiendfyre, sectumsempra, the blasting curse (explodes 12 people in one go!), Accio or even. None of those are the ray in flight style of spell. Two of them are area of effect, one of them is an auto-lock. Sectumsempra can't be seen as it flies (but we aren't even really sure of the targeting.)
Two, HP wizards are most certainly not sorcerers in DnD terms. They can learn as many spells as they want (and often times easier than a wizard), so they are like a wizard in that regard. The main difference would be that an HP wizard always has all there spells prepared, as opposed to a wizard who has to bother with those spell slot things. Advantage Voldy. In fact IIRC ADnD wizards had a limit to the number of spells known even, although I think it was int dependent, so Vecna wouldn't be overly concerned about that.
Most importantly in a straight up fight? A HP wizard casts much faster than a DnD wizard, vastly faster than an 2nd ADnD wizard. And from the thread a first edition ADnD wizard has even their quickest spells take 6 seconds, IIRC. A HP wizards on the other hand have been shown casting a dozen spells in as many seconds.
Oh and DnD spells have somatic and verbal parts too.

If this gets into a straight up fight for Vecna of this comes down to who is the better spell slinger something has gone horribly wrong for Vecna.

The blasting curse doesnt kill 12 in a shot. The gas main the blasting curse ruptured and caused to explode can kill 12 people in a single shot.

Gullintanni

2012-01-20, 10:07 AM

The blasting curse doesnt kill 12 in a shot. The gas main the blasting curse ruptured and caused to explode can kill 12 people in a single shot.

This makes me want to roll up as a gas main in my next D&D campaign. :smallamused:

Traab

2012-01-20, 10:08 AM

This makes me want to roll up as a gas main in my next D&D campaign. :smallamused:

So you want to die in the first battle you contribute to? :smalltongue:

Gullintanni

2012-01-20, 10:10 AM

So you want to die in the first battle you contribute to? :smalltongue:

I'd get to go out with a bang :smallwink:

The Glyphstone

2012-01-20, 10:17 AM

So you want to die in the first battle you contribute to? :smalltongue:

Gas Main Risen Martyr 9?

Traab

2012-01-20, 10:44 AM

Gas Main Risen Martyr 9?

/in a dead on Towelie impersonation. "Oh man, I have no idea what you are saying."

Tyndmyr

2012-01-20, 12:10 PM

Heavy somatic component is point and shoot for any wizard worth their salt. And we have no idea just how big Voldemort's spell list is. As for a martial artist. That isn't going to go well. Teleport away, sectumsempra. Which is an instantaneous slashing attack that can't ever be fully healed.

Er, Voldemort MAY have a big spell list, but he certainly doesn't utilize it much. Even when it's fairly obvious that his go-to spell is a bad idea.

He's basically the wizard that only bothers to prepare fireball, and who reacts to fire immune things by casting MORE fireballs.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-20, 12:43 PM

Er, Voldemort MAY have a big spell list, but he certainly doesn't utilize it much. Even when it's fairly obvious that his go-to spell is a bad idea.

He's basically the wizard that only bothers to prepare fireball, and who reacts to fire immune things by casting MORE fireballs.

In his defense, it's more like a wizard who only prepares fireball in a world where there is only one monster in all of existence immune to fire.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-20, 01:07 PM

The Glyphstone

2012-01-20, 01:18 PM

Nah, we have monsters called out as immune to it, the golems are immune to it...immunity is extremely rare among humans, and it's a good spell overall...but so is fireball. A tactical genius he is not. Hell, mediocrity might be a step up.

What monsters are immune to AK? The golems were animated constructs - I'm quite certain he never deliberately cast AK at them, they just kept getting in the way.

I'm not saying he's a tactical genius, I'm just saying that it's not unthinkably unreasonable for him to have a logical disconnect when the unstoppable death spell is stopped and consider it a fluke or one-off event.

Maerok

2012-01-20, 01:19 PM

What was Voldemort's build? Sorcerer 16 to get Finger of Death? I've always thought of him as a living lich of sorts.

Traab

2012-01-20, 01:53 PM

What was Voldemort's build? Sorcerer 16 to get Finger of Death? I've always thought of him as a living lich of sorts.

He is some sort of home brewed lich-like being. He has 6 phylacteries, and so long as they exist, he cannot truly die. However, it requires a ritual (possibly several) for him to return. It isnt just a certain length of time and boom, he spawns. I would even grant him an aura of fear, I mean lets face it. He was thought of as DEAD for 14 years, and people still refused to speak his name. If that isnt an awe inspiring level of fear, I dont know what is. However, he is not immune to death effect spells. He also has a truly alive body. Blood, breathing, brain activity, etc. He isnt some skeleton kept alive by magic.

Anyways, all that aside, he is shown to have an impressive spell list when he is fighting dumbledoore. To those who claim he is limited, the thing is, why would any spellcaster waste his time using some complex spell chain combo, in order to kill weak grunts? He doesnt NEED to use more than the unforgiveables against 99% of the wizarding world, so he doesnt bother. If fireball solves 99% of all your problems, is it really a bad idea to use it all the time?

Worira

2012-01-20, 02:28 PM

When you're planning an expedition to the Elemental Plane of Plucky Orphans, yeah, it is.

Xondoure

2012-01-20, 02:36 PM

When you're planning an expedition to the Elemental Plane of Plucky Orphans, yeah, it is.

Orphans are going to die just like everyone else. It's orphans whose parents sacrificed themselves by taking the spell meant for you that renders them immune to your death curses.

Edit: meaning that without Snape begging Voldemort to let Lilly live there would have been no boy who lived at all.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-20, 03:38 PM

The phoenix is shown on screen as taking the hit and recovering(via it's usual rebirth). I believe one of the bestiaries also has a gribbly monster or two listed as immune. Not a remarkably huge list, but considering that it's only single target, and is definitely dodgable, it's not that remarkably optimal of a strategy.

He is some sort of home brewed lich-like being. He has 6 phylacteries, and so long as they exist, he cannot truly die. However, it requires a ritual (possibly several) for him to return. It isnt just a certain length of time and boom, he spawns. I would even grant him an aura of fear, I mean lets face it. He was thought of as DEAD for 14 years, and people still refused to speak his name. If that isnt an awe inspiring level of fear, I dont know what is. However, he is not immune to death effect spells. He also has a truly alive body. Blood, breathing, brain activity, etc. He isnt some skeleton kept alive by magic.

Anyways, all that aside, he is shown to have an impressive spell list when he is fighting dumbledoore. To those who claim he is limited, the thing is, why would any spellcaster waste his time using some complex spell chain combo, in order to kill weak grunts? He doesnt NEED to use more than the unforgiveables against 99% of the wizarding world, so he doesnt bother. If fireball solves 99% of all your problems, is it really a bad idea to use it all the time?

Yes. It makes you really predictable.

Inyssius Tor

2012-01-20, 03:41 PM

Yes. It makes you really predictable.

And sets you up for a fall against the one percent of your business that you haven't been practicing or preparing for.

Gullintanni

2012-01-20, 03:43 PM

Yes. It makes you really predictable.

At that point, the efficacy of AK is almost moot. Predictable is the last thing you want to be when facing up against Vecna. It's a bad trait against anyone, but so much more so against Vecna.

Traab

2012-01-20, 04:10 PM

Ravens_cry

2012-01-20, 05:06 PM

Yeah... but predictable or not, it still works against 99.9999% of everything he wants to kill. He had no reason to use anything else because it always worked. Even against harry, the first time it failed because of his mommas protection. the second time it failed because of voldemorts soul fragment. The third time it would have killed harry dead. He had no more deus ex machinas left to make him pop back up again.
As Albert Einstein (may) have said: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Personally, I would have gone for good ol' fashioned Ala-ka-blam. (http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/080428)

Adumbration

2012-01-20, 05:39 PM

Traab

2012-01-20, 09:28 PM

I think the reason Voldie kept using AK is that it's one of the few spells that can't be countered with a flick of a wand. If it could have been, there really wouldn't be a dark wizard infestation.

His problem was that he kept using it against a kid with specific immunity against it, instead of any other spell.

In all fairness, until it failed the second time, voldemort didnt really have a reason to believe he was immune. He figured it out early on in the series that it was his mothers protection which saved him the first time.

Coidzor

2012-01-20, 09:43 PM

I think the reason Voldie kept using AK is that it's one of the few spells that can't be countered with a flick of a wand. If it could have been, there really wouldn't be a dark wizard infestation.

His problem was that he kept using it against a kid with specific immunity against it, instead of any other spell.

Eh, you can take people out of a fight without AK, and kill them pretty quick too. Though, really, the whole dark wizard infestation thing seems to have been more because of daisy-chained imperius networks.

Weezer

2012-01-20, 11:50 PM

Eh, you can take people out of a fight without AK, and kill them pretty quick too. Though, really, the whole dark wizard infestation thing seems to have been more because of daisy-chained imperius networks.

And the incredible failure of any sort of investigation to discover the Death Eaters, for gods sake a bunch of simple priori incantatum spells on suspects wands would make finding Death Eaters simple.

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-21, 05:37 AM

And the incredible failure of any sort of investigation to discover the Death Eaters, for gods sake a bunch of simple priori incantatum spells on suspects wands would make finding Death Eaters simple.

Or simply the rolling up of sleeves, as numerous fanfictions have pointed out. Because even if naked arms, are like, a taboo or something - which is doubtful - the numpties at the top making sure that wasn't a mandatory check as soon as they realised Voldy was actually back was incredibly stupid. Sure, it wouldn't have solved the problem but it'd have gone a long way to help...

hamishspence

2012-01-21, 05:39 AM

in book 7 we found out that only his "inner circle" wear the mark- other minions (like Greyback, and the Snatchers) don't.

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-21, 05:55 AM

in book 7 we found out that only his "inner circle" wear the mark- other minions (like Greyback, and the Snatchers) don't.

Considering some of those inner circle got into the ministry, as I recall, it certainly couldn't have hurt, at the very least as a precautionary measure...

Though it must be said that if Voldy wasn't a tactical genius, the ministry of magic earns new awards for levels of incompetance and willful stupidity beyond the ken of most mortal minds...

Vecna would probably have been too dumbstruck at the sheer idiocy to be have been able to take over Wizarding Britain...

Vecna: *skullpalm* Are...are these people real? Wait, did I get stuck in Ravenloft again? And if the answers to those questions are "yes" and "no", do I really want to rule these cretins...?

Arakune

2012-01-21, 09:02 AM

Considering some of those inner circle got into the ministry, as I recall, it certainly couldn't have hurt, at the very least as a precautionary measure...

As a rule I don't defend Rowlings world, but if you want to make the ministry less "why are you still alive" dumb, maybe the dark mark can be concealed if necessary? Or maybe Voldy didn't marked those that are meant to infiltrate the ministry?

Aotrs Commander

2012-01-21, 09:18 AM

As a rule I don't defend Rowlings world, but if you want to make the ministry less "why are you still alive" dumb, maybe the dark mark can be concealed if necessary? Or maybe Voldy didn't marked those that are meant to infiltrate the ministry?

Those would be reasonably plausible explanations.

I think in all probability, it's just one of those issues that Rowlings didn't really think too much about. I mean, from my understanding from the books alone - and other people's too, I think - I was under the impression that every Death Eater had the Dark Mark. That only the inner circle had them appears to be a later clarification/revision/retcon. (Not an unreasonable one, admittedly!)

(Though to be honest, I reckon Voldy viewed the Ministry with the same sort of disbeliving glee that Palpatine did when the senate made Jar Jar a senator, a sort of "are these guys really that stupid - wait, they are? Sweet!")

Traab

2012-01-21, 10:09 AM

Xondoure

2012-01-21, 02:10 PM

The problem is, most of the marked followers in the ministry were let go because of the imperius defense so they already KNOW that foul dark lord forced a mark upon them against their will and it was so /sob horrible! The rest were already locked up in azkaban, and so unlikely to get hired by the ministry before voldy took over. So yeah, rolling up the sleeves wouldnt help much there. Actually using veritaserum and having trials the first time? THAT would have helped. But they were apparently running trials based on who had enough money to pay the bribes, and who was smart enough to at least pretend to not want to have voldemorts babies, and who wasnt. If you didnt have money and the intelligence to pretend, you got tossed in jail just because. If you had cash and more intelligence than a cow, you got off scott free, and even were able to keep all your influence and positions.

"In this world the only thing that matters is money and intelligence!" -Bakuman

That, and considering how few wizards there are I think the ministry wanted as few people taken out of the gene pool as possible, and thinking voldemort dead felt that believing the best of these people was worth the risk. And once Voldy had come back all of the death eaters had become so ingrained in society again it was much easier not to think of what it would mean if they had been wrong.

Lamech

2012-01-21, 02:29 PM

And the incredible failure of any sort of investigation to discover the Death Eaters, for gods sake a bunch of simple priori incantatum spells on suspects wands would make finding Death Eaters simple.
Umm... that is a rare effect that only happens with wands that share a core, and it is not exactly the safest thing in the world to try. There is a spell which shows the latest spell, but that would only show you spells like: He recently summoned a tea cup.

Actually using veritaserum and having trials the first time? THAT would have helped. But they were apparently running trials based on who had enough money to pay the bribes, and who was smart enough to at least pretend to not want to have voldemorts babies, and who wasnt. If you didnt have money and the intelligence to pretend, you got tossed in jail just because. If you had cash and more intelligence than a cow, you got off scott free, and even were able to keep all your influence and positions. Veritaserum, isn't perfect. (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105) It might have helped, but all the bad guys would have simply made sure to be able to protect themselves. Then they could have gotten good wizards on technicalities and minor things, and the dark wizards would appear to be the most pure ones of all. That would have been a fail.

I suppose they could have dispensed with making sure people were guilty and having people soul kissed on suspicion, or dislike of the ministry, but... then while Voldy might not win, a Dark Wizard still wins.

Traab

2012-01-21, 02:43 PM

Umm... that is a rare effect that only happens with wands that share a core, and it is not exactly the safest thing in the world to try. There is a spell which shows the latest spell, but that would only show you spells like: He recently summoned a tea cup.

Veritaserum, isn't perfect. (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=105) It might have helped, but all the bad guys would have simply made sure to be able to protect themselves. Then they could have gotten good wizards on technicalities and minor things, and the dark wizards would appear to be the most pure ones of all. That would have been a fail.

I suppose they could have dispensed with making sure people were guilty and having people soul kissed on suspicion, or dislike of the ministry, but... then while Voldy might not win, a Dark Wizard still wins.

I dunno, it seems to me the only specific ways to beat veritaserum involves having a wand to cast spells with while noone pays attention, or having sufficient advance notice and a friend handy to wipe your memories of crime committing and replace them with innocent tea times with your fellow law abiding friends.

Xondoure

2012-01-21, 04:27 PM

I dunno, it seems to me the only specific ways to beat veritaserum involves having a wand to cast spells with while noone pays attention, or having sufficient advance notice and a friend handy to wipe your memories of crime committing and replace them with innocent tea times with your fellow law abiding friends.

Or Occlumency but the list of known users seems to be Snape, Dumbledore, and Voldemort. Maybe Mcgonagall.

Lamech

2012-01-21, 04:36 PM

Or an antidote. Or you could place the spells on an item. I vote we trust the author and believe when she says that the potion wouldn't have been a catch all bad guys spell.

Weezer

2012-01-21, 04:45 PM

Or an antidote. Or you could place the spells on an item. I vote we trust the author and believe when she says that the potion wouldn't have been a catch all bad guys spell.

When we're talking about Rowling "trust the author" is a phrase I am very unlikely to get behind.

Traab

2012-01-21, 04:49 PM

Or an antidote. Or you could place the spells on an item. I vote we trust the author and believe when she says that the potion wouldn't have been a catch all bad guys spell.

It isnt a perfect catch all, but it sure as hell is alot better than, "Oh, I was under the imperious, trust me. And by the way, id like to make this massive donation to the re-elect fudge campaign. Im not sure where to give this big sack of gold, so ill just let you take care of it cornelius."

Coidzor

2012-01-21, 05:06 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-21, 07:27 PM

I dunno, it seems to me the only specific ways to beat veritaserum involves having a wand to cast spells with while noone pays attention, or having sufficient advance notice and a friend handy to wipe your memories of crime committing and replace them with innocent tea times with your fellow law abiding friends.

As I said earlier, I there's also wandless nonvocal transfiguration or charm spells. Even if wizards skilled enough to do that are rare, it makes evidence gathered by veritaserum hardly a slam-dunk and possibly impermissable if the courts really get annoyed about it.

Lamech

2012-01-21, 07:32 PM

That they made the unforgivables high crimes and never bothered to research a way to track or catch their use as always, seems to be forgotten.

Especially in light of their other capabilities. At least house elf interference in those capabilities being left as a vulnerability is explained by most wizards being both unimaginative and, above all else, really, really racist.
Yes, yes, wizards are really, really, racist.

It isnt a perfect catch all, but it sure as hell is alot better than, "Oh, I was under the imperious, trust me. And by the way, id like to make this massive donation to the re-elect fudge campaign. Im not sure where to give this big sack of gold, so ill just let you take care of it cornelius." Trusting it would have only led to the dark wizards hiding everything they ever did wrong and a bunch of mostly innocent people getting caught. This is what would happen:
Guy making hiring decisions: Okay if the death eater make hostages of your family can you be trusted?
Goodish Wizard: Probably not.
Death Eater: I would never negotiate with terrorists!

Guy at trial: So what are your crimes
Goodish wizard: I occasionally steal office supplies. And I vandalized my jerk bosses port-key once.
Death Eater: None what so ever.

And so forth. Not using them is the same level of stupidity as not using lie detectors as standard. In other words, a perfectly sane choice.

Traab

2012-01-21, 08:24 PM

Yes, yes, wizards are really, really, racist.

Trusting it would have only led to the dark wizards hiding everything they ever did wrong and a bunch of mostly innocent people getting caught. This is what would happen:
Guy making hiring decisions: Okay if the death eater make hostages of your family can you be trusted?
Goodish Wizard: Probably not.
Death Eater: I would never negotiate with terrorists!

Guy at trial: So what are your crimes
Goodish wizard: I occasionally steal office supplies. And I vandalized my jerk bosses port-key once.
Death Eater: None what so ever.

And so forth. Not using them is the same level of stupidity as not using lie detectors as standard. In other words, a perfectly sane choice.
The biggest problem is that there didnt seem to be real "trials" AT ALL. It was basically, dragging in the already found guilty, making them name names in an effort to get a lesser sentence, or just sending them to azkaban. Or no trial at all, because such a loyal campaign contributor and upstanding member of society couldnt possibly have really done anything wrong willingly. The only people who went to azkaban were the ones so psychotic that they never once stopped professing their love of voldemort, and sirius black. Oh wait, crouchs son went to jail too, but only because he was caught red handed torturing aurors into insanity with the entire lestrange family. And he didnt stay there for long anyways.

Justice and criminal law in magical britain seemed to consist of the right of "I say so" because whoever is in charge, IS in charge, they can do whatever they want, punish or reward however they want, all because they say so. The laws only exist when the person with the right of I say so wants them too, otherwise they are brushed off, or glossed over. You can do whatever you want if your patron owns enough people in power or is a person in power, there are few consequences to the rich no matter what they do, except to their bank account.

*EDIT* Wait, what the heck? How did we get to criminal justice from vecna versus voldy?

Chirios

2012-01-21, 09:12 PM

Heavy somatic component is point and shoot for any wizard worth their salt.

Not really. All spells are combinations of wand waving and then speaking/thinking the words inside your head. It's just that some wizards can do this faster than others. A properly trained wizard can cast spells at the same rate as a fully trained boxer can throw punches. Voldemort and Dumbledore in this analogy would be like Tyson and Manny Pacquiao.

And we have no idea just how big Voldemort's spell list is. As for a martial artist. That isn't going to go well. Teleport away, sectumsempra. Which is an instantaneous slashing attack that can't ever be fully healed.

Direct quote from Harry Potter book one:

"Quirrell couldn't touch his bare skin, not without suffering terrible pain--his only chance was to keep hold of Quirrell, keep him in enough pain to stop him from doing a curse."

Enough pain can keep a wizard from being able to cast a spell. Casting a spell is more difficult than pulling a trigger. Military training teaches people that in close combat situations (maximum 5 feet of distance) engaging in hand to hand combat is safer than running, since you can close said distance fairly quickly. A properly trained martial artist would likely be able to grab the wizard and begin pummelling well before the wizard was able to cast the spell; assuming a distance of 5 feet.

You seem to be forgetting a lot of spells for starters. Fiendfyre, sectumsempra, the blasting curse (explodes 12 people in one go!), Accio or even. None of those are the ray in flight style of spell. Two of them are area of effect, one of them is an auto-lock. Sectumsempra can't be seen as it flies (but we aren't even really sure of the targeting.)

True, but fiendfyre isn't area of effect. It's similar to what Harry Dresden does, only EVIL(tm). It's fire that you have to control what direction it moves in otherwise it spreads of its own account, magical fire. Can it be put out? I can't remember from the books.

Accio has horrific implications that were never explored. Can voldemort accio eyeballs?

Misery Esquire

2012-01-21, 09:22 PM

Accio has horrific implications that were never explored. Can voldemort accio eyeballs?

Accio has never been shown to be able to summon a part of an object, only whole objects. Assumably if you were to be trying to Accio an eye, it would have to be already disconnected from the body.

(Moody's Eye might count, as it's resting in a socket, not attached? Or is it attached? /shrug?)

Lamech

2012-01-21, 09:58 PM

Traab

2012-01-21, 10:23 PM

Accio-ing a whole person is sufficiently nasty as it is. Fling someone into the air, through a wall of fire, directly into one of your curses ect. If your fighting someone who can't block the Accio spell, there in trouble.

Heh, I liked a fanfic where harry kept summoning death eaters to intercept voldemorts killing curses. It was a big general battle so they werent expecting it and kept getting caught. He took out the entire lestrange family that way.

Forum Explorer

2012-01-21, 11:55 PM

Accio-ing a whole person is sufficiently nasty as it is. Fling someone into the air, through a wall of fire, directly into one of your curses ect. If your fighting someone who can't block the Accio spell, there in trouble.

Not necessarily. As far as I remember it was only used on inaminate objects and it didn't describe them as moving very fast. A human may very well be able to resist the pull of the spell easily.

Xondoure

2012-01-22, 12:04 AM

Was a living thing ever summoned? Not sure it works that way.

Lamech

2012-01-22, 12:30 AM

Was a living thing ever summoned? Not sure it works that way.

Yes (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Accio) because ten characters.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-22, 01:13 AM

Technically yes - a toad once. So there's no strict limit on living/nonliving, though note that he also attempted and failed to use it to summon Hedwig and Hagrid in Book 7. So it may be a size matters deal, the largest we've ever seen successfully summoned was a broom.

Xondoure

2012-01-22, 02:52 AM

How the dinosaurs died: In a last moment of fury he who must not be roared called down the heavens. Accio comet!

What? I mean if magic exists whose to say there weren't sapient magic dinosaurs? Dammit now I want to write a book about magic dinosaurs...
Edit: Wizaraptors? Dinosorcerers?

Eldan

2012-01-22, 09:06 AM

Personally, my favourite species is Tyrannomagus rex voldemorti

TheCountAlucard

2012-01-22, 10:37 AM

How the dinosaurs died: In a last moment of fury he who must not be roared called down the heavens. Accio comet!Wasn't it an asteroid, not a comet? :smallconfused:

Traab

2012-01-22, 10:40 AM

Wasn't it an asteroid, not a comet? :smallconfused:

Meh, whatever, a comet just has more funky ice in it than an asteroid does. Summon a big enough comet and it would still kill everything on earth.

Tiki Snakes

2012-01-22, 12:12 PM

Dammit now I want to write a book about magic dinosaurs...
Edit: Wizaraptors? Dinosorcerers?

Dinosorcerers is a bit close in name to an existing property (http://youtu.be/zjhJSD8RU4k), perhaps.
Better stick to Wizaraptors (Wizraptors?) instead, for copyright reasons. :smallcool:

Tyndmyr

2012-01-27, 11:11 AM

Yeah... but predictable or not, it still works against 99.9999% of everything he wants to kill. He had no reason to use anything else because it always worked. Even against harry, the first time it failed because of his mommas protection. the second time it failed because of voldemorts soul fragment. The third time it would have killed harry dead. He had no more deus ex machinas left to make him pop back up again.

Pfft, like Harry had a finite # of deus ex machina's....

Still, two failure's indicates that it's not working. I wouldn't try for a third. Minions? tear him up.

Traab

2012-01-27, 12:21 PM

Pfft, like Harry had a finite # of deus ex machina's....

Still, two failure's indicates that it's not working. I wouldn't try for a third. Minions? tear him up.

Yeah? What about Harry? "This shall be our final battle Tom! Prepare to DIE! EXPELLIARMUS!" WTF?! Did he really just shoot a &^%*I&^ DISARMING hex at voldemort for his final battle? I mean, I get it, he is the hero, he shouldnt use a killing curse of his own. But a disarming hex? Couldnt he at least have tried to STUN voldemort or something? This is the middle of a battle, his friends and family are dying left right and center. Hell, he SEES the dead bodies of people he cares about. The grievously wounded fellow students, and his thought on the best way to stop the dark lord is to try and take his wand away? At least voldemort realized he was in an actual fight and used a deadly attack.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-27, 12:37 PM

Tyndmyr

2012-01-27, 01:11 PM

Harry's Expelliarmus vs. Voldy's AK had a 100% success rate so far, and in the book, at least, Harry knew and explained in patient detail to Voldy exactly what was going to happen. All he had to do was something that could push back the AK spell, and the Elder Wand and/or love blood magic would do the rest.

Push back the AK....

Yes, the uncounterable death spell is counterable by a spell taught to young children.

Hate the ending so GD much...

Traab

2012-01-27, 01:39 PM

Push back the AK....

Yes, the uncounterable death spell is counterable by a spell taught to young children.

Hate the ending so GD much...

Yeah, lets not forget that he had to manage to line up the shot so the incoming curse would be hit directly by his spell to cause the effect. Dumbest ending ever. Seriously, what the hell kind of inhuman reflexes and aim is that? Its the equivalent of someone shooting an arrow at you, so you shoot your own arrow to knock it out of the air!

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-27, 04:06 PM

Push back the AK....

Yes, the uncounterable death spell is counterable by a spell taught to young children.

Hate the ending so GD much...

I'm just saying, the exact same thing happened three books earlier, albeit for entirely different reasons and (in the books) with way more special effects. It was a reasonable idea from Harry's perspective.

TheCountAlucard

2012-01-27, 04:07 PM

Seriously, what the hell kind of inhuman reflexes and aim is that? Its the equivalent of someone shooting an arrow at you, so you shoot your own arrow to knock it out of the air!I'll just note that this is actually a Charm in Exalted. :smallamused:

Though then again, the Exalted are supposed to be over-the-top action hero demigods; the people in Harry Potter? Not so much. :smallsigh:

Traab

2012-01-27, 04:10 PM

I'm just saying, the exact same thing happened three books earlier, albeit for entirely different reasons and (in the books) with way more special effects. It was a reasonable idea from Harry's perspective.

It was totally different! In book 4 they were using brother wands and it caused priori incantatum effect or whatever it was called. In this case his DISARMING hex overpowered and reversed a KILLING CURSE. And we are expected to believe that it is because the wand voldemort is holding is a sentient being capable of understanding that it is being used against its true master, even though said master has never touched the damn thing, and the wand wasnt even present when draco was defeated by harry.

Weezer

2012-01-27, 04:10 PM

I'll just note that this is actually a Charm in Exalted. :smallamused:

Though then again, the Exalted are supposed to be over-the-top action hero demigods; the people in Harry Potter? Not so much. :smallsigh:

Yeah. I don't think "it can happen in Exalted" is a valid argument for the reasonableness of an action. :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard

2012-01-27, 04:16 PM

Yeah. I don't think "it can happen in Exalted" is a valid argument for the reasonableness of an action. :smalltongue:I didn't say it was; I just felt like pointing out that it's only stupid for Harry Potter to be doing it. :smalltongue:

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-27, 05:09 PM

It was totally different! In book 4 they were using brother wands and it caused priori incantatum effect or whatever it was called. In this case his DISARMING hex overpowered and reversed a KILLING CURSE. And we are expected to believe that it is because the wand voldemort is holding is a sentient being capable of understanding that it is being used against its true master, even though said master has never touched the damn thing, and the wand wasnt even present when draco was defeated by harry.

If you're expecting a coherent and self-consistent magical system, why in the hell are you reading Harry Potter? All we have to go on are whatever rules and rules exceptions have most recently been exposited in this particular book, which is to say, the new rules that "The Elder Wand is even more bitchily possessive and powered by rules and destiny than every other wand ever."

Traab

2012-01-27, 06:26 PM

If you're expecting a coherent and self-consistent magical system, why in the hell are you reading Harry Potter? All we have to go on are whatever rules and rules exceptions have most recently been exposited in this particular book, which is to say, the new rules that "The Elder Wand is even more bitchily possessive and powered by rules and destiny than every other wand ever."

Bah, they should have had a meteor the size of a golf ball crash through the ceiling and implant itself in voldemorts head. It would have made just as much sense as harrys victory.

Xondoure

2012-01-27, 07:27 PM

The way I saw it was that Voldemort only ever saw magic as a tool when it has a very living aspect of it. And Harry has had enough experience with that sort of magic to have a report with it. He won because the world wanted him to win.

Lamech

2012-01-27, 07:37 PM

And we are expected to believe that it is because the wand voldemort is holding is a sentient being capable of understanding that it is being used against its true master, even though said master has never touched the damn thing, and the wand wasnt even present when draco was defeated by harry.

Your asking how the Elder Wand knew something when it wasn't around. Harry Potter has spells that wipe facts out from every persons mind on the planet, and then keep them from learning about said facts even if they are looking at it. The Elder Wand is even more powerful than that. And you want to know how it had the power to learn about something far away?

Or you are questioning the quasi-intelligent wand? They have quasi-intelligent chess pieces.

Traab

2012-01-27, 08:03 PM

Your asking how the Elder Wand knew something when it wasn't around. Harry Potter has spells that wipe facts out from every persons mind on the planet, and then keep them from learning about said facts even if they are looking at it. The Elder Wand is even more powerful than that. And you want to know how it had the power to learn about something far away?

Or you are questioning the quasi-intelligent wand? They have quasi-intelligent chess pieces.

Yeah, the chess thing was also very odd. That the pieces are sentient enough to argue with the players is a bit.... creepy.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-01-27, 11:34 PM

Yeah, the chess thing was also very odd. That the pieces are sentient enough to argue with the players is a bit.... creepy.

Proud Warrior Race Guys. Clearly.

Mystic Muse

2012-01-27, 11:38 PM

Yeah. I don't think "it can happen in Exalted" is a valid argument for the reasonableness of an action. :smalltongue:

Can I sig this?

Coidzor

2012-01-28, 01:32 AM

Yeah, the chess thing was also very odd. That the pieces are sentient enough to argue with the players is a bit.... creepy.

Wizards do seem to have a bit of creepiness to them that's never quite played with enough, yeah.

Weezer

2012-01-28, 02:13 AM

Can I sig this?

It would be an honor :smallbiggrin:

Forum Explorer

2012-01-28, 03:07 AM

Bah, they should have had a meteor the size of a golf ball crash through the ceiling and implant itself in voldemorts head. It would have made just as much sense as harrys victory.

It would have actually been more believable considering a random meteor strike has happened before. Other weird endings that have more basis in reality: A random tortoise falling from the sky and hitting Voldemort on the head, killing him. They push Voldemort off some stairs and he breaks his neck on the way down. That damn giant squid eats Voldemort.

Traab

2012-01-28, 11:22 AM

It would have actually been more believable considering a random meteor strike has happened before. Other weird endings that have more basis in reality: A random tortoise falling from the sky and hitting Voldemort on the head, killing him. They push Voldemort off some stairs and he breaks his neck on the way down. That damn giant squid eats Voldemort.

That last one could have been a neat bit of, I dunno, either foreshadowing, or even a chekovs gun. Think about it. In book 2 we learn that slytherin created his own secret space, and bred a monster to be in it. Is it really that unbelievable that the other founders would have done something similar? I read a good fanfic where we basically learn that each founder created something. A chamber, a sanctuary, whatever, and made it their own. Ravenclaw made the room of requirements, hufflepuff created the forbidden forest. (it wasnt forbidden back then, it was a magical creature sanctuary) Things like that.

In this case, the squid was the magical guardian left by either one, or the other three founders, to help protect the school. Easily explained by the ancient yellowed portrait of the first headmaster/s in the headmasters office. It explains why there has always been a giant squid in the lake, why it has always helped out the students that fall out of their boats and such, things like that. Its the schools and students protector