[PF] Paladin that doesn't suck at everything?

[Rhaegar14]

Class progression:

Paladin 2
Cleric 3
Inheritor's Crusader 3
Holy Vindicator 4

BAB +11, Caster Level 9th (5th-level spells)

It's still quite MAD, but it gets a good chunk of the few good things about Paladins, all of the Paladin fluff, and good casting.

[Ravens_cry]

I think the Pathfinder Paladin works just fine. Adding in cleric isn't going to help it not suck as you add MAD and your way behind in spell progression.
However, I would go Holy Warrior (old campaign setting book d10, full BAB, full plated, domain-less cleric variant)/Holy Vindicator 3 or 4/ Holy Warrior for Paladin feel without Paladin restrictions.
You don't get smite, but you do get 9th level spells.

[Mando Knight]

Base PF Paladin is better than base 3.5 Paladin... not enough to bump it up a tier, IIRC, but almost everything gets upgraded, and casting is switched to Charisma-based (yes, they're prepared Charisma casters. So what?). Then if your GM is allowing traits, you can grab Magical Knack to make your CL actually worthwhile. Yes, your spell progression is still terrible, but the spells you do get are at least useful, and the Paladin-only spells are cool.

[Curious]

Base PF Paladin is better than base 3.5 Paladin... not enough to bump it up a tier, IIRC, but almost everything gets upgraded, and casting is switched to Charisma-based (yes, they're prepared Charisma casters. So what?). Then if your GM is allowing traits, you can grab Magical Knack to make your CL actually worthwhile. Yes, your spell progression is still terrible, but the spells you do get are at least useful, and the Paladin-only spells are cool.

PF Paladin CL is level - 3 anyways. And they do get bumped a tier.

[W3bDragon]

Class progression:

Paladin 2
Cleric 3
Inheritor's Crusader 3
Holy Vindicator 4

BAB +11, Caster Level 9th (5th-level spells)

It's still quite MAD, but it gets a good chunk of the few good things about Paladins, all of the Paladin fluff, and good casting.

I'm currently playing in a pathfinder campaign using something very similar.

Paladin 2
Oracle (Life) 3
Inheritor's Crusader 3
Divine Scion x

As you can probably tell, my DM waived the "cleric/paladin" restriction on the inheritor's Crusader's spellcasting advancement and allowed me to apply it to Oracle. I also have magical knack.

With that setup, you'd have at 12th level:

BAB +10, Caster level 12th, (5th level spells)

The key to the setup is to get the restriction on inheritor's crusader waived so you can get your casting from oracle and dump wisdom. However, if your DM doesn't wave that for you, you could make something very similar with 2 paladin, 4 oracle, Holy vindicator 4, rest oracle. You'll loose a few casting levels, but still get decent BAB when it matters (early levels) and 8th level spells by end game plus a nice oracle only spell by the end of it. Divine Vessel. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/divine-vessel)

I basically have my high stats on Str/Cha, secondary on Con, rest whatever, and wearing heavy armor to counter the low dex.

I played the character from 3rd level up to 8th so far and its been great fun. Just note your lay on hands will be pitiful. I treat it more like 1d6 fast healing.

You'll need to pick up the Channel Revelation from Oracle of life to qualify for all the interesting PrCs. You'd also do very well by picking up Cascade spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/metamagic-feats/cascade-spell-metamagic), for quick in-combat buffing.

[Gullintanni]

I think the Pathfinder Paladin works just fine. Adding in cleric isn't going to help it not suck as you add MAD and your way behind in spell progression.
However, I would go Holy Warrior (old campaign setting book d10, full BAB, full plated, domain-less cleric variant)/Holy Vindicator 3 or 4/ Holy Warrior for Paladin feel without Paladin restrictions.
You don't get smite, but you do get 9th level spells.

I just want to echo this. Pathfinder Paladins are actually pretty decent. Of all the PF classes, Paladins probably got buffed the most. Class features that actually do things, reduced MAD, improved Smiting, and Mercies that make you a decent secondary healer? What's not to like?

[charcoalninja]

I just want to echo this. Pathfinder Paladins are actually pretty decent. Of all the PF classes, Paladins probably got buffed the most. Class features that actually do things, reduced MAD, improved Smiting, and Mercies that make you a decent secondary healer? What's not to like?

Sacred servent archtype is tier 2. It gives lesser planar ally at 8th, planar ally at 12th and greater planar ally at 16th for free, as in they come help you out in whatever you need at no cost at all. Unlimited use of planetars and Astral Devas = nearly full cleric casting.

PF paladins are awesome.

[Gullintanni]

Sacred servent archtype is tier 2. It gives lesser planar ally at 8th, planar ally at 12th and greater planar ally at 16th for free, as in they come help you out in whatever you need at no cost at all. Unlimited use of planetars and Astral Devas = nearly full cleric casting.

PF paladins are awesome.

I don't really know PF that well, but that is pretty awesome. I was sticking to the core class though. Start throwing on Archetypes and PF based ACFs and I'm lost.

The PF Paladin doesn't really need splat support to be competent. That was my point really.

[legomaster00156]

Sacred servent archtype is tier 2. It gives lesser planar ally at 8th, planar ally at 12th and greater planar ally at 16th for free, as in they come help you out in whatever you need at no cost at all. Unlimited use of planetars and Astral Devas = nearly full cleric casting.

PF paladins are awesome.
"Unlimited" meaning "1x/week".

[Grendus]

Sacred servent archtype is tier 2. It gives lesser planar ally at 8th, planar ally at 12th and greater planar ally at 16th for free, as in they come help you out in whatever you need at no cost at all. Unlimited use of planetars and Astral Devas = nearly full cleric casting.

PF paladins are awesome.

It's once/week, and the paladin's deity decides which creature to send unless he knows the name of a specific creature (and by RAW, the DM can screw the player over anyways). The cost is also only waived "for reasonable requests", you can't chain gate, for example, unless chain summoning an army of celestials would be reasonable or you pay through the nose.

Not sure about T2. The limits are pretty harsh unless your DM lets you get away with anything as "reasonable".

[Ravens_cry]

I don't really know PF that well, but that is pretty awesome. I was sticking to the core class though. Start throwing on Archetypes and PF based ACFs and I'm lost.

The PF Paladin doesn't really need splat support to be competent. That was my point really.
Monks on the other hand got a moderate upgrade in Core, but a pretty hefty upgrade if you include the splats. One Archtype I really want to try is Tetori. Yeah, I know you can make a monk to be a Hadouken slinging ki vampire, but being able to grapple the ungrapplable just sounds awesome.

[Gullintanni]

Monks on the other hand got a moderate upgrade in Core, but a pretty hefty upgrade if you include the splats. One Archtype I really want to try is Tetori. Yeah, I know you can make a monk to be a Hadouken slinging ki vampire, but being able to grapple the ungrapplable just sounds awesome.

Yeah Monks archetypes are the only PF archetypes I know at all because of how awesome* Monks can be with the splat support. The Hungry Ghost archetype is very cool.


*relative to their 3.5 counterparts.

[hex0]

Speaking of PF Paladin not sucking as much, PF Dragon Disciple doesn't suck as much as well (by actually having spellcasting)

Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple is actually decent in core only PF. Or Bard, since they can be any alignment in PF.

[charcoalninja]

It's once/week, and the paladin's deity decides which creature to send unless he knows the name of a specific creature (and by RAW, the DM can screw the player over anyways). The cost is also only waived "for reasonable requests", you can't chain gate, for example, unless chain summoning an army of celestials would be reasonable or you pay through the nose.

Not sure about T2. The limits are pretty harsh unless your DM lets you get away with anything as "reasonable".

It's once per week with free summoning for 1 day per level of the paladin. you get it at level 8. That's always having an LG outsider around unless it dies. You're limited to outsiders that match your alignment since Planar Ally doesn't allow you to summon creatures of opposed alignments, and you're a paladin you're going to summon LG outisders. That limits you to some archons and Angles, so Hound archon, Astral Deva, Trumpet Archon, and Plantar, and Solar if you use your holy symbol to buff your CL are your options.

With those spell like abilities and eventual casting progressions you're easily tier 2. For a LG outsider I'd say helping a Paladin overcome and defeat a great evil using your daily spellcasting more than "reasonable".

Sure he isn't tier 2 if the DM doesn't let the ability do what its supposed to do, especially since the ally is SUPPOSED to serve the paladin, it's in the damn of the ability after all. And he's a freakin paladin. They'll get along just fine. But with your little celestial buddy around helping you out it's easily tier 2.

Especially since he can have more than one out at a time once he's high enough level. Having two Solars around every now and again is certainly worth tier 2 IMO.

[Gullintanni]

It's once per week with free summoning for 1 day per level of the paladin. you get it at level 8. That's always having an LG outsider around unless it dies. You're limited to outsiders that match your alignment since Planar Ally doesn't allow you to summon creatures of opposed alignments, and you're a paladin you're going to summon LG outisders. That limits you to some archons and Angles, so Hound archon, Astral Deva, Trumpet Archon, and Plantar, and Solar if you use your holy symbol to buff your CL are your options.

With those spell like abilities and eventual casting progressions you're easily tier 2. For a LG outsider I'd say helping a Paladin overcome and defeat a great evil using your daily spellcasting more than "reasonable".

Sure he isn't tier 2 if the DM doesn't let the ability do what its supposed to do, especially since the ally is SUPPOSED to serve the paladin, it's in the damn of the ability after all. And he's a freakin paladin. They'll get along just fine. But with your little celestial buddy around helping you out it's easily tier 2.

Especially since he can have more than one out at a time once he's high enough level. Having two Solars around every now and again is certainly worth tier 2 IMO.

This isn't quite a correct assessment. In Pathfinder, there's a hard HD cap on the Planar Ally line of spells.

Lesser gets up to 6HD
Regular gets up to 12 HD
Greater gets up to 18 HD

Of note, this HD amount is not tied to CL at all. Once you can cast these spells, you can summon up to max HD. Planetar's have 17 HD and are probably the best use of this ability for a Paladin...and are still a solid boost to the class. As a matter of fact, at the level they become available to the Paladin, a Planetar has one more HD than the Paladin who summoned it. Odd.

[SamBurke]

Base PF Paladin is better than base 3.5 Paladin... not enough to bump it up a tier, IIRC, but almost everything gets upgraded, and casting is switched to Charisma-based (yes, they're prepared Charisma casters. So what?). Then if your GM is allowing traits, you can grab Magical Knack to make your CL actually worthwhile. Yes, your spell progression is still terrible, but the spells you do get are at least useful, and the Paladin-only spells are cool.

The Litany Line, in particular, is worth looking at. A-MAZING.

Also, in divine feats, there's a way to cast Resurrect with your LoH.

[Gullintanni]

The Litany Line, in particular, is worth looking at. A-MAZING.

Also, in divine feats, there's a way to cast Resurrect with your LoH.

One other neat thing about the Sacred Servant archetype...you gain access to a Domain and Domain Slots as an effective Cleric of your Paladin Level -3. That means at level 20, you can pick up Shapechange with the Animal Domain, or Miracle with the Luck domain.

You only have one slot per spell level per day, but it's still 9 spells you couldn't cast before, and 9th spell levels.

[Ravens_cry]

The Litany Line, in particular, is worth looking at. A-MAZING.

Also, in divine feats, there's a way to cast Resurrect with your LoH.
Technically (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy), it emulates Raise Dead. There is another feat that is technically cheaper to use, 6 LoH verses 10, that a paladin can also use, Channelled Revival (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeled-revival), but you have to be within reach of them +5 feet when they croak.

[Curious]

One other neat thing about the Sacred Servant archetype...you gain access to a Domain and Domain Slots as an effective Cleric of your Paladin Level -3. That means at level 20, you can pick up Shapechange with the Animal Domain, or Miracle with the Luck domain.

You only have one slot per spell level per day, but it's still 9 spells you couldn't cast before, and 9th spell levels.

Er, no. The archetype specifies that you only gain the spell slots of spell levels you can cast.

[Gullintanni]

Er, no. The archetype specifies that you only gain the spell slots of spell levels you can cast.

Hmm...so it does. That's what I get for skimming. Still, 4th level spells are decent enough in their own right. And you still have Planetars at level 16.

[Metahuman1]

The only thing a Pathfinder Paladin really needs is the Magical Knack Trait and either pounce + Travel Devotion for Movement capability's or Martial maneuvers.

Even those can be worked around by a player who puts a bit of thought and research into it before hand. It's really almost exactly what the Paladin should have always been.

[Psyren]

"Unlimited" meaning "1x/week".

Unlimited meaning you can chain it, because the ally can stay a week or even longer.

[SamBurke]

Technically (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy), it emulates Raise Dead. There is another feat that is technically cheaper to use, 6 LoH verses 10, that a paladin can also use, Channelled Revival (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/channeled-revival), but you have to be within reach of them +5 feet when they croak.

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