Fruit Juice is Evil

[Dumbledore lives]

I guess this is kind of a general education thread more than a discussion, but I figure I'll post it anyway.

So I recently attended a lecture on nutrition and food at a Quaker Summer Gathering and learned that fruit juice is bad for you. This was quite a surprise given the large quantities I was used to drinking and just the natural assumption on my part. Turns out fruit has a lot of fructose which is basically poison for the liver, the same as alcohol. Normally fruit has fiber which just pushes all the bad stuff out the other end, but fruit juice doesn't, because the juicing process gets rid of the fiber.

I learned a bunch of other stuff as well, like the fact that when you eat doesn't really matter, so much as what you eat, and that often vitamin supplements actually do little to nothing, assuming you don't have an absolute lack of them. Just figured I'd share this with the playground, and if anyone wants to refute it and tell me I'm wrong well I'm fine with that too, but it sounded reasonable enough to me when explained properly.

[Moonshadow]

http://edge2.mobafire.com/images/champion/portrait/veigar.jpg

All part of my plan! Mwahahahaha!

[Mando Knight]

Turns out fruit has a lot of fructose which is basically poison for the liver, the same as alcohol.

It's not the same as alcohol (did they show you the rats? Did you know that testing like that is often conducted on relatively ridiculous scales? If you had proportionally the same amount of fructose, most of your daily caloric intake would be from it. And that there isn't a 1:1 correlation between rat and human physiology anyway?), and it's not just fruit juice that has it. Almost any sweetened processed food or drink contains High-Fructose Corn Syrup nowadays unless labeled otherwise.

Is it bad to have too many sweets, particularly those based on HFCS? Yes. Should you get paranoid about what you eat? No. (That has its own problems... darn kids and your sensationalist reporting...)

[thubby]

meh. depends on the fruit, and whether or not it has pulp.
high pulp OJ you're not losing much (oranges arent that amazing to begin with unless you have scurvy, though)
and its hard to mess up the nutritional value of a banana.

really, though, its better than most non-fruit "juice", which is all you should really want.

[Ravens_cry]

Fructose is just the sugar you find in most fruits. Humans have been eating fruit for as long as we have been human.
Sure, the way the make most juices are made, they probably not the healthiest thing for you, but I don't think that's the fructose per say. The poison is in the dose, and a lot of juices, especially those made from otherwise bitter fruits like cranberries, pomegranates, and grapefruit, are way over sugared.

[The Succubus]

Smoothies are probably a good way to get around this problem as although the fruit is pressed, there's still a lot of the residual fibre and "body" of the fruits left in.

[Ravens_cry]

Smoothies are probably a good way to get around this problem as although the fruit is pressed, there's still a lot of the residual fibre and "body" of the fruits left in.

Or you can make them with fresh or frozen fruit. It's a longer blend, but it works. Also, diluting some juices can give more refreshment per volume. Same amount of total sugar, duh, but you're getting more hydration.

[Starwulf]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Crystal Light or Sugar Free Hawaiian punch packets put into water. Both taste great, and have no sugar, so you get all the benefits of drinking water just with actual flavor :). Both of my daughters get that instead of fruit juice or soda, as I fully disapprove of giving either to kids(I know I had waaaaayy to much of that stuff when I was younger, as well as a host of other sugary treats, and I ended up with Diabetes as an adult because I was overweight and consumed far to much sugar because of how I was raised and taught to eat).

[Mauve Shirt]

Wait, is fruit evil or just juice? Fresh fruit can't be as evil as juice, which is indeed basically sugar water. Delicious sugar water. I drink tea instead. Very lightly sweetened tea.

[Starwulf]

Wait, is fruit evil or just juice? Fresh fruit can't be as evil as juice, which is indeed basically sugar water. Delicious sugar water. I drink tea instead. Very lightly sweetened tea.

I'm a huge fan of green tea sweetened with a small drop of Honey. Delicious, and very healthy for you.

[KenderWizard]

The natural fructose in fruit is way different from the processed High Fructose Corn Syrup, which is terrible for you. There's two kinds of fat, under-skin fat and tummy fat, and tummy fat is the one that's generally bad for you. Someone who's fat all over is healthier than someone who's lighter than them but has a really fat tummy. (Not that fatness per se is an indicator of health, but imagine these two people are otherwise identical) Anyway, mostly people's fat distribution is due to their own genetics and metabolism, but HFCS for some reason loves to make tummy fat, and it's really good at making fat, because it's so high in calories and low in actual nutrition.

Anyway, juice is worse for you than eating fruit and drinking water is. I think it's recommended that you only get one of your five-per-day from juice. But juice is better than, say, eating sugar and drinking fizzy drinks. As with anything, moderation is key. One thing that's good to do is to dilute your juice. You get used to it and you get more water per unit of sugar that way. I wouldn't go so far as to say juice is evil!

[Castaras]

So I recently attended a lecture on nutrition and food at a Quaker Summer Gathering and learned that fruit juice is bad for you. This was quite a surprise given the large quantities I was used to drinking and just the natural assumption on my part. Turns out fruit has a lot of fructose which is basically poison for the liver, the same as alcohol. Normally fruit has fiber which just pushes all the bad stuff out the other end, but fruit juice doesn't, because the juicing process gets rid of the fiber.

Did you know that we're surrounded by Radiation as well, all the time? And that Chocolate is a poison?

With these things, you have to look closer - how much fructose? How much Radiation around you? How poisonous is chocolate (hint: You'll die of eating too much chocolate before you die of the poison.)?

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm a huge fan of green tea sweetened with a small drop of Honey. Delicious, and very healthy for you.

Mmmm. A surprisingly tasty sweetener for tea and coffee is agave syrup. Just like honey, you only need to use a little, so its calorie count is very low.

[Yora]

Did you know that we're surrounded by Radiation as well, all the time? And that Chocolate is a poison?

With these things, you have to look closer - how much fructose? How much Radiation around you? How poisonous is chocolate (hint: You'll die of eating too much chocolate before you die of the poison.)?
You can sum up the knowledge about healthy diet as "Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody."
We haven't made any major breakthroughs in the 150 years since.

[Brother Oni]

It's not the same as alcohol (did they show you the rats? Did you know that testing like that is often conducted on relatively ridiculous scales?

I second this.

Depending on the regulatory bodies in your part of the world, the minimum safety level is usually set to 100 times the normal daily dose/exposure.

Under that classification, water counts as poisonous (100 times the normal daily intake of water is an impossible amount for anybody to ingest), so fructose being 'toxic' is just sensationalism.

As someone else mentioned, humans have been eating fruit since before recorded history and since we even have an enzyme (fructokinase) dedicated for processing and assimilating it into our metabolism, I'd say we're used to ingesting it.

HFCS isn't directly lethal to you in the same way like a poison such as arsenic or cyanide, but the calorific intake may cause harm depending on your diet.

[Kd7sov]

"Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody."

Unless they choke on it.

[Dr.Epic]

Fruit Juice isn't evil. It's True Neutral. :smallwink:

[Orzel]

This thread is lies. ALL LIES!

I have a very nice pulped fruit juice schedule. I drink 48 oz high pulp orange juice a week and a regular series of apple, grape, and grapefruit juices.

Been doing it for years. In high school, I got 5 gallons of 100% juice for my birthday. I heart fruit juice and you will have to take it away from me over my dead body.

[Dr.Epic]

Wait, if Fruit Juice is evil and a paladin drinks it, do they fall? What happens if you try to drink it and have Protection from Evil cast on you? So many questions this brings up. :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

It's like Unholy Water, only delicious.

[Dr.Epic]

It's like Unholy Water, only delicious.

I don't know what you're talking about. Unholy Water is delicious and energizing. I drink plenty of it when I'm working out. :smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

It's like Unholy Water, only delicious.
Actually, you got it wrong. Fruit Juice IS Unholy Water.

[Kneenibble]

This thread is lies. ALL LIES!

I have a very nice pulped fruit juice schedule. I drink 48 oz high pulp orange juice a week and a regular series of apple, grape, and grapefruit juices.

Been doing it for years. In high school, I got 5 gallons of 100% juice for my birthday. I heart fruit juice and you will have to take it away from me over my dead body.

I'm on a strict daily schedule of fruit juice too -- grape, primarily, and only the good and rotten variety.

[Weezer]

Like with anything, over doing it on fruit juice is bad, there is a decent amount of sugar in them even when extra isn't added to offset tartness. However fructose isn't inherently bad, or even worse for you than sucrose (table sugar) and the claim that it has the same toxic effect as ethanol (the alcohol in alcoholic beverages) is downright wrong. Continue drinking your fruit juices, but it probably shouldn't be the only thing you drink, mix it up with some water or any other unsweetened drink (tea is my current flavored drink of choice). And it is certainly better for you than any soda (even diet), so if you crave a sweet drink, go for juice over soda.

[Tirian]

As someone else mentioned, humans have been eating fruit since before recorded history and since we even have an enzyme (fructokinase) dedicated for processing and assimilating it into our metabolism, I'd say we're used to ingesting it.

We're historically used to processing it in the context of eating fruit. If you drink a tall glass of orange juice at a thirst-quenching speed, you've taken in the sugar content of maybe six oranges in less than the time that it would ordinarily take to eat one. Does your body generate that much fructokinase on short notice? Given that we've only started to need to, I'll be skeptical (although neither will I be quick to believe that we would suffer a shock of toxicity from it).

[Starwulf]

Mmmm. A surprisingly tasty sweetener for tea and coffee is agave syrup. Just like honey, you only need to use a little, so its calorie count is very low.

Hmm, I've heard of Agave syrup before, but never tried it. What does it taste like?

[thubby]

Hmm, I've heard of Agave syrup before, but never tried it. What does it taste like?

sugar, but less sharp

[TheThan]

[Insert one piece devil fruit joke here].

Seriously, because of the really high sugar to water to juice ratio of most fruit juices, you’re probably better off juicing your own fruit juice.

Now I learned yesterday that apparently the citric acid in oranges causes arthritis flair up in people with arthritis, (like my dad); which would explain why his has been pretty bad as of late. But as this is second hand knowledge and Wikipedia came up blank on the subject (and I’m not into reading medical journals and the such). If someone could come up with a link on the subject I’d be greatly appreciated, I don’t have all day to browse the net.

[Brother Oni]

We're historically used to processing it in the context of eating fruit. If you drink a tall glass of orange juice at a thirst-quenching speed, you've taken in the sugar content of maybe six oranges in less than the time that it would ordinarily take to eat one. Does your body generate that much fructokinase on short notice? Given that we've only started to need to, I'll be skeptical (although neither will I be quick to believe that we would suffer a shock of toxicity from it).

Oh I agree that we're probably not built to process that much on short notice (most of it would probably sit in the stomach and be absorbed slowly), but the point I was making that a mechanism exists for it to be metabolised at all.

Compare to ethanol metabolism, which provides calories with no other (or minimal) nutritional benefit whatsoever.


Now I learned yesterday that apparently the citric acid in oranges causes arthritis flair up in people with arthritis, (like my dad); which would explain why his has been pretty bad as of late.

The only thing I can come up with is gout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout), which can present with acute arthritis.

Depending on what type his pre-exisiting arthritis is, the citric acid may be aggravating it, or causing a new type of it. Board rules prevent me from going further, except to recommend going to see a doctor.

[Alarra]

Our pediatrician did tell us the other day that they recommend that you give kids no fruit juice at all, ever, because they find it makes them more likely to be obese or diabetic later in life by accustoming their palettes to craving sweet drinks.

[Draconi Redfir]

i've lived off fruit juice my entire life and i'm neither diabetic or obease, infact i'm now 21 and never felt better!

Only side effect i've noticed is that water doesn't quench my thirst as well, if at all. And it just tastes awful. (i do however drink lightly flavored water at night when i wake up with a dry mouth)

[Tebryn]

Our pediatrician did tell us the other day that they recommend that you give kids no fruit juice at all, ever, because they find it makes them more likely to be obese or diabetic later in life by accustoming their palettes to craving sweet drinks.

Right, but that's not because of the fruit juice causing them to be obese. It's the conditioning of wanting sweet things. That's also a recommendation. Not a total ban and they're clearly not pushing for it to be either.

[Spiryt]

100% fruit juice available in shops at least is not some much very "evil" as pretty worthless.

Empty carbs that aren't really good for body anymore, since all refining processes forming a concentrate and then making 'juice' again by adding water to it leave it 'fruitlike' liquid without enzymes, vitamines etc.

Essentially juice, but rather alien to organism.

[Starwulf]

Our pediatrician did tell us the other day that they recommend that you give kids no fruit juice at all, ever, because they find it makes them more likely to be obese or diabetic later in life by accustoming their palettes to craving sweet drinks.

My kids pediatrician has also given this advice, and was actually quite surprised to find out that we tend to not give our kids fruit juices(the only fruit juice they get is what WIC gives us each month), and was very pleased to hear that they drink primarily water and milk.

[TheThan]

The only thing I can come up with is gout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout), which can present with acute arthritis.
Depending on what type his pre-exisiting arthritis is, the citric acid may be aggravating it, or causing a new type of it. Board rules prevent me from going further, except to recommend going to see a doctor.

Yeah, he’s got rheumatoid arthritis. Anyway I’m just not one to blindly trust things I hear. So it’s nice to find something to back up what I was told. Well I’ll make sure he asks about it when he visits the doctor next time. I was primarily just wondering if anyone had and on-hand sources I could research.

[Knaight]

i've lived off fruit juice my entire life and i'm neither diabetic or obease, infact i'm now 21 and never felt better!

Only side effect i've noticed is that water doesn't quench my thirst as well, if at all. And it just tastes awful. (i do however drink lightly flavored water at night when i wake up with a dry mouth)

The claim was that it is likely to happen, ergo that it doesn't happen in all cases is built in. An anecdote boiling down to "it didn't happen to me" proves nothing.

That said, I would love to see the actual studies behind "don't give your kids fructose", as there's a tendency for nutritional studies to be poorly implemented.

[Rockphed]

[Insert one piece devil fruit joke here].

Seriously, because of the really high sugar to water to juice ratio of most fruit juices, you’re probably better off juicing your own fruit juice.

Now I learned yesterday that apparently the citric acid in oranges causes arthritis flair up in people with arthritis, (like my dad); which would explain why his has been pretty bad as of late. But as this is second hand knowledge and Wikipedia came up blank on the subject (and I’m not into reading medical journals and the such). If someone could come up with a link on the subject I’d be greatly appreciated, I don’t have all day to browse the net.

My grandmother has had arthritis since before I was born, and she has never consumed orange juice, I think for that reason. She can't drink milk either. Or eat American cheese. Or butter. Cooking around her is all kinds of fun.

[Jack Squat]

Our pediatrician did tell us the other day that they recommend that you give kids no fruit juice at all, ever, because they find it makes them more likely to be obese or diabetic later in life by accustoming their palettes to craving sweet drinks.

Because kids aren't going to get accustomed to sweet things by drinking pop or eating junk food? :smallconfused:

In the battle of health, juice has to be one of the least dangerous things to consume. If you're really worried about it, make sure you grab 100% juice instead of the "juice blends" or "juice cocktails" that are only about 10-15%.

[Starwulf]

Because kids aren't going to get accustomed to sweet things by drinking pop or eating junk food? :smallconfused:

In the battle of health, juice has to be one of the least dangerous things to consume. If you're really worried about it, make sure you grab 100% juice instead of the "juice blends" or "juice cocktails" that are only about 10-15%.

Uhh, who says all kids get pop or eat junk food? I personally just fought a massive war with my parents at the start of last years summer, where I had to completely ban them from being able to see their grandchildren, until they agreed to toss all of the massive amounts of crap they had in their house for my kids, and bought healthier snacks(ones that I personally wrote down on a list). This came about when I found out that they gave my older daughter two Toaster Strudels for Breakfast, one for a snack, two for lunch, then hotdogs and ice cream for supper one day. Not every parent gives their child junk ya know.

[Knaight]

Uhh, who says all kids get pop or eat junk food?
The implicit claim wasn't all. It was "most", and the sales figures for all major soft drinks and junk food suppliers support that, as do inquiries of children.

[Mando Knight]

Uhh, who says all kids get pop or eat junk food? I personally just fought a massive war with my parents at the start of last years summer, where I had to completely ban them from being able to see their grandchildren, until they agreed to toss all of the massive amounts of crap they had in their house for my kids, and bought healthier snacks(ones that I personally wrote down on a list). This came about when I found out that they gave my older daughter two Toaster Strudels for Breakfast, one for a snack, two for lunch, then hotdogs and ice cream for supper one day. Not every parent gives their child junk ya know.
My paternal grandmother told my mom (somewhat jokingly, I assume) that the cookie recipe the former gave the latter could be given to her kids for breakfast because they contain a fairly decent amount of oatmeal and peanut butter. The additional sugar and the chocolate chips were besides the point (pretty sure most kids' cereals aren't any better, and only rarely did I ever consume any for what could be considered breakfast).

My maternal grandfather, on the other hand, seemed to believe in his later years that ice cream should be served daily... so does my paternal grandmother, come to think of it. The former was the toughest old bird I've ever met, though, and the latter is diabetic so that probably helps her sugar levels under control...

[Balain]

The problem with fruit juice is the sugar. There is as much sugar in fruit juice as there is in pop. Take a look at a can or bottle of say coke and then at a can or bottle the same size of fruit juice and you will see they have pretty much equal amounts of sugar which means more calories, which means you put on more weight if you don't burn them off. I believe the calories are the same too in both, but it's been awhile since I looked.

[Mando Knight]

The problem with fruit juice is the sugar. There is as much sugar in fruit juice as there is in pop. Take a look at a can or bottle of say coke and then at a can or bottle the same size of fruit juice and you will see they have pretty much equal amounts of sugar which means more calories, which means you put on more weight if you don't burn them off. I believe the calories are the same too in both, but it's been awhile since I looked.

The problem raised here wasn't in the calories, it was the vehicle for the calories. Fructose is the Sensationalist Terrible Foodstuff of the New Tens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheNewTens), much as fats and carbohydrates in general have been before it.

[The Extinguisher]

Wait, are we talking about fruit juice as in "squeezed out a fruit with nothing else in it", or fruit juice as in "kool-aid and fruit drinks that can't actually call themselves juice"

Because I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with the former. Most of it isn't really all that sweet in my opinion.

[Dumbledore lives]

Wait, are we talking about fruit juice as in "squeezed out a fruit with nothing else in it", or fruit juice as in "kool-aid and fruit drinks that can't actually call themselves juice"

Because I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with the former. Most of it isn't really all that sweet in my opinion.

I'm talking about fresh squeezed fruit juice, and it may not seem that sweet compared to other things, but it is just as sweet as your average soda, like coke. The thing is, the sugar is the fructose kind of sugar, with no glucose, so it worse for you than coke's sugar.

[Knaight]

Wait, are we talking about fruit juice as in "squeezed out a fruit with nothing else in it", or fruit juice as in "kool-aid and fruit drinks that can't actually call themselves juice"

Because I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with the former. Most of it isn't really all that sweet in my opinion.

Small amounts of fruit juice are usually equivalent to larger amounts of fruit - any time with a juicer will teach you this much. You can have too much fruit.

[Brother Oni]

The thing is, the sugar is the fructose kind of sugar, with no glucose, so it worse for you than coke's sugar.

:smallsigh:

Coca Cola is sweetened with either sucrose or HFCS, depending on the country of origin.

Sucrose is metabolised into glucose and fructose, so Coke's sugar is 'worse' as unit for unit, it provides more energy, including the fructose unit.

In addition, fructose is sweeter than sucrose (117-173 compared to 100 on the relative sweetness index, depending on the exact source of fructose), so you need more sucrose to achieve the same sweetness as fructose.
Since you're using more sucrose, you're also actually getting more fructose at the same time in comparison to a similar sweetness fruit juice.

This isn't even going anywhere near the carbonic and phosphoric acid present in coke, compared to the citric and ascorbic acids in fruit juice.

[Dumbledore lives]

:smallsigh:

Coca Cola is sweetened with either sucrose or HFCS, depending on the country of origin.

Sucrose is metabolised into glucose and fructose, so Coke's sugar is 'worse' as unit for unit, it provides more energy, including the fructose unit.

In addition, fructose is sweeter than sucrose (173 compared to 100 on the relative sweetness index), so you need more sucrose to achieve the same sweetness as fructose.
Since you're using more sucrose, you're also actually getting more fructose at the same time in comparison to a similar sweetness fruit juice.

This isn't even going anywhere near the carbonic and phosphoric acid present in coke, compared to the citric and ascorbic acids in fruit juice.

I understand all this, but coke, here at least, is made mostly with cane sugar and so has more glucose in it then fruit juice. The other stuff in juice is better for you than the other stuff in coke, but given the quantities involved in both coke is better on the whole, though still not good for you, just better.

[Brother Oni]

I understand all this, but coke, here at least, is made mostly with cane sugar and so has more glucose in it then fruit juice.

:smallconfused:

Cane sugar is mostly sucrose.
Sucrose is made up of a glucose and fructose unit - to get at the glucose, you have to release the fructose too.

So for every unit of glucose you get, you get an exact same amount of fructose as well.



The other stuff in juice is better for you than the other stuff in coke, but given the quantities involved in both coke is better on the whole, though still not good for you, just better.

Ok, according to the Coca Cola website, a 330ml can of regular has 35.0g of sugar. Making the assumption that this is pure sucrose, that means it contains ~17.5g of glucose and ~17.5g of fructose.

Compare to a supermarket own brand of orange juice (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=258291322) from concentrate: 34.3g of sugar per 330ml.

Now compare to a premium brand (http://www.tropicana.co.uk/?redirect=null) of orange juice: 33g of sugar per 330ml.

Edit: correcting for Asta Kask's comment, I suppose that evaluating solely in terms of fructose ingestion, coke is better than you than fruit juice.

I still haven't seen how fructose is supposedly poisonous to the liver though.

[Asta Kask]

Ok, according to the Coca Cola website, a 330ml can of regular has 35.0g of sugar. Making the assumption that this is pure sucrose, that means it contains 35.0g of glucose AND 35.0g of fructose.

No. 17.5 g glucose and 17.5 sucrose (approx.)

[H Birchgrove]

Conclusion: fruit juices, when being proper juice and not nectarine or some such, is less good than whole, raw fruit, but still better than soda pop. :smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

No. 17.5 g glucose and 17.5 sucrose (approx.)

D'oh! I was thinking in molarity not weight. :smallredface:

I'm still of the firm opinion that the claim 'fructose is bad' is just sensationalist reporting though.

Yes, excess amounts are bad for you, but no more so than any other sugar in excess.

[The Succubus]

You know, I'm getting really tired of this sort of stuff. "Waaaah, fruit juice is evil, waaaaah mushrooms are radioactive, waaaaah, mentioning bananas will get your forum posts deleted...." :smallmad:

I was 28 before I had my first steak and a little older when I had my first beef spaggetti bolognaise. The reason behind this was because of the "Mad Cow Disease" episode while I was growing up. My mum freaked out about it and forbade me from eating anything with beef in. As a result a whole range of dishes were denied to my tastebuds but more importantly, it meant I grew up with the vegetarian option for most things. As most vegetarians know, this usually amounts to something with a mountain of cheese on it. :smallsigh: My fat intake shot up through the roof and the amount of protein I got was substantially reduced.

So as far as I'm concerned, you can sit there with your endless glasses of water and your carefully nutritionally balanced wafers with all the flavour of a piece of cardboard and I'll be over here with my lethal foods and giving my palette the richness and variety it deserves. :smallannoyed:

[Dumbledore lives]

D'oh! I was thinking in molarity not weight. :smallredface:

I'm still of the firm opinion that the claim 'fructose is bad' is just sensationalist reporting though.

Yes, excess amounts are bad for you, but no more so than any other sugar in excess.

I don't know, it might just be bull, but from what this nutrition lady told me it's basically a form of toxin for your liver. Not as bad as some things, but the same as the likes of alcohol.

That's not to say that fruit juice is awful, it's just not particularly healthy, which given it is a direct product of fruit seems likely. Enjoy fruit juice, just be aware it's just as sugary as coke, and of a slightly worse variety, so it's not really any healthier of a choice. The title is a tad misleading and sensationalist, but I figure a little hyperbole is good for getting people's attention.

[H Birchgrove]

You know, I'm getting really tired of this sort of stuff. "Waaaah, fruit juice is evil, waaaaah mushrooms are radioactive, waaaaah, mentioning bananas will get your forum posts deleted...." :smallmad:

I was 28 before I had my first steak and a little older when I had my first beef spaggetti bolognaise. The reason behind this was because of the "Mad Cow Disease" episode while I was growing up. My mum freaked out about it and forbade me from eating anything with beef in. As a result a whole range of dishes were denied to my tastebuds but more importantly, it meant I grew up with the vegetarian option for most things. As most vegetarians know, this usually amounts to something with a mountain of cheese on it. :smallsigh: My fat intake shot up through the roof and the amount of protein I got was substantially reduced.

So as far as I'm concerned, you can sit there with your endless glasses of water and your carefully nutritionally balanced wafers with all the flavour of a piece of cardboard and I'll be over here with my lethal foods and giving my palette the richness and variety it deserves. :smallannoyed:
Your journey toward the dark side will be complete! :xykon:

What quality was the cheese then? I mean, most good cheese is fat, but industrial cheese made for frozen pizza etc are mostly vegetable fats. :smallyuk:

[Knaight]

I don't know, it might just be bull, but from what this nutrition lady told me it's basically a form of toxin for your liver. Not as bad as some things, but the same as the likes of alcohol.

How reliable is this source, really? As of right now, the data seems to track down to "the thing the person said at the conference", and doesn't even include a mechanism in the explanation. That fruit juice is high sugar is known, but the data you're presenting for the claim of fructose inferiority is questionable.

[Brother Oni]

I don't know, it might just be bull, but from what this nutrition lady told me it's basically a form of toxin for your liver. Not as bad as some things, but the same as the likes of alcohol.

Water is a form of toxin to your brain though (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication).

As mentioned earlier, everything is toxic to you in excess amounts, even breathing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation) or oxygen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity), but you can't live without either for long.

Bear in mind that your nutrition lady is probably pushing some sort of agenda, much like the anti-carbohydrate and anti-fat stories of yesteryear.



That's not to say that fruit juice is awful, it's just not particularly healthy, which given it is a direct product of fruit seems likely. Enjoy fruit juice, just be aware it's just as sugary as coke, and of a slightly worse variety, so it's not really any healthier of a choice. The title is a tad misleading and sensationalist, but I figure a little hyperbole is good for getting people's attention.

It's also very good for annoying people as well. :smallamused:

I agree that fruit juice is as sugary as coke - I disagree that the sugar is of a 'slightly worse variety' and that it's not healthier (as you've said, you're disregarding the ascorbic acid content).


How reliable is this source, really? As of right now, the data seems to track down to "the thing the person said at the conference", and doesn't even include a mechanism in the explanation. That fruit juice is high sugar is known, but the data you're presenting for the claim of fructose inferiority is questionable.

There are several things I can find:
Sugar: The Bitter truth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM)
Fructose - Sweet but Dangerous (http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htm)

Essentially they boil down to the fact that excess fructose is converted by the liver into storage forms (triglycerides and glycogen) as per normal body chemistry.
Excess triglycerides in your body can be harmful in that it's a known cause of heart diease.

However they skip over the fact that this happens to every other type of excess sugar as well, since it dilutes the message they want to push. :smallamused:

The 'liver poison' factoid comes from fructose is only processed in the liver, the body's natural detoxification unit, thus technically making it a poison.
I treat this information on the same value that a tomato is also a fruit - I wouldn't want to add it to a fruit salad though. :smalltongue:

[kpenguin]

You know, I'm getting really tired of this sort of stuff. "Waaaah, fruit juice is evil, waaaaah mushrooms are radioactive, waaaaah, mentioning bananas will get your forum posts deleted...." :smallmad:

Y'now, by mentioning mentioning bananas, you are in yourself mentioning bananas. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Now lactose, that's something a lot of us aren't prepared to digest post infancy.
But because of the cultural dominance of cultures until recently predominated by mutants who can, a lot of people these days encounter some level of lactose intolerance.
I refer to milk and milk sugars.

[Elder Tsofu]

No. 17.5 g glucose and 17.5 fructose (approx.)

Fixed it for you, no need to confuse this further. :smallwink:

***

1 g sucrose is the same weight as 1 g fructose, but since fructose is "half a sucrose" you'll have twice as many units of fructose present per every weight unit of sugar. If we let it slide and forget glucose, the fructose could double up and form the same amount of units of sucrose as in the sucrose but still retain the same weight (1 g).
Quite an easy mistake to make.
*Apparently I was too slow.*

I don't think fructose is much more harmful than sucrose/glucose, and the studies on a large scale can probably only claim that their results show that people eating lots of sugar (regardless of source) have a larger incidence of being/becoming obese.
So I can see sense in a recommendation for restricting sugar intake, and that it is good to point out that sugar is sugar even if you find it in your fruit juice, which many people equal to fruit which they equal to healthy (which they equal to being harmless since you can't eat too healthy!).
It's also the sort of reasoning people use around here with plant based medicine, since it's "natural" it can't have any bad sides to it.

[Dumbledore lives]

There are several things I can find:
Sugar: The Bitter truth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM)
Fructose - Sweet but Dangerous (http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htm)

Essentially they boil down to the fact that excess fructose is converted by the liver into storage forms (triglycerides and glycogen) as per normal body chemistry.
Excess triglycerides in your body can be harmful in that it's a known cause of heart diease.

However they skip over the fact that this happens to every other type of excess sugar as well, since it dilutes the message they want to push. :smallamused:

The 'liver poison' factoid comes from fructose is only processed in the liver, the body's natural detoxification unit, thus technically making it a poison.
I treat this information on the same value that a tomato is also a fruit - I wouldn't want to add it to a fruit salad though. :smalltongue:

The Sugar: The Bitter Truth was used as a source, as was something else that I forgot to write down, and I suppose you're right it may be just sensationalist, but it sounds like a good quality of it, say 70% is simply not processed given the typical processes. This applies to any number of other things as well, but glucose is one of the fundamental building blocks, unlike fructose, which is not.

Anyway I'll be avoiding fruit juice, or at least not using it as a substitute for water anymore, regardless of what the truth may be.

[Tebryn]

Anyway I'll be avoiding fruit juice, or at least not using it as a substitute for water anymore, regardless of what the truth may be.

What....why? If it isn't harmful then....why not drink it? That doesn't make any sense.

[Asta Kask]

Maybe he doesn't like it.

[Heliomance]

Personally I was under the impression that fructose was actually one of the least bad sugars for you. When did that change?

[Dumbledore lives]

What....why? If it isn't harmful then....why not drink it? That doesn't make any sense.

Well for now I believe that fructose is harmful, at least in any decent quantities, which is what I typically do when I drink stuff. So avoid it, it's for the best anyways, and the amount of sugar in fruit juice, harmful or not, it's probably for the best that I avoid it all together.

[Asta Kask]

Personally I was under the impression that fructose was actually one of the least bad sugars for you. When did that change?

1990's. But it always takes a certain amount of time before it filters down to the public.

[Ravens_cry]

What....why? If it isn't harmful then....why not drink it? That doesn't make any sense.
Well, I can agree that using it as a water substitute isn't the greatest idea, as all those calories add up. Better to just drink water when your thirsty, though if you are really exercising ,you also want a source of electrolytes, i.e. sodium and potassium.

[Heliomance]

Wiki mentions the comparison to alcohol here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Liver_disease)

[Brother Oni]

This applies to any number of other things as well, but glucose is one of the fundamental building blocks, unlike fructose, which is not.

Except it is: Fructolysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructolysis).

At a certain stage in the processing pathway, fructose becomes essentially interchangeable with glucose in the conversion to glycogen, which can be metabolised when needed into glucose.

About the only major difference is that fructose is generally converted to storage forms - some sources have hypothesised that this is probably an adaptation when humans were entering the savannah from the forest/jungle, to take into account the seasonal availability of fruit.
Due to this limited availability, the amount of fructose we can immediately process into glycogen is limited, any excess being converted into tryglycerides and subsequently fat.

The problem is that various groups, for whatever reason, have jumped on this fact and interpreted it to mean that fructose, and hence fruit, is bad for you.



Anyway I'll be avoiding fruit juice, or at least not using it as a substitute for water anymore, regardless of what the truth may be.

That's entirely your choice to make and I hold nothing against you for it.
In fact, not using it as a substitute for water is something that I would also agree on. :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

Well for now I believe that fructose is harmful, at least in any decent quantities, which is what I typically do when I drink stuff.

Wiki mentions the comparison to alcohol here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Liver_disease)
Check the sources (http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v13/n7/full/oby2005136a.html): the mice used in this study had their water fully replaced by a 10% fructose mixture (the rough equivalent of replacing the water with apple juice), and no report on physical activity of the mice was given.

If you have juice regularly, roughly a serving or two per day, you will still probably be taking in proportionally less fructose than the mice in the study. No, it's not good to replace your water intake with fructose-laden drinks, but a drink or two a day won't hurt you.

[Karoht]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Crystal Light or Sugar Free Hawaiian punch packets put into water. Both taste great, and have no sugar, so you get all the benefits of drinking water just with actual flavor :). Both of my daughters get that instead of fruit juice or soda, as I fully disapprove of giving either to kids(I know I had waaaaayy to much of that stuff when I was younger, as well as a host of other sugary treats, and I ended up with Diabetes as an adult because I was overweight and consumed far to much sugar because of how I was raised and taught to eat).I am a fan of them too, but for anyone with Diabetes or Hypoglycemia beware. The body begins doing things with insulin the minute you taste sweet things. If the insulin is dumped into your bloodstream and there is nothing there for it to react with, that can be bad. It is a common danger of artificial sweeteners, but not a severe danger or anything.
That said, I'm hypocglycemic (or at least I'm pretty sure I am) and I still use Crystal Light. I just make sure that my blood sugar isn't getting low before hand, if it is I eat something first or just drink regular water.


Any word on Metamucil? That orange stuff that tastes like orange Tang and has loads of fibre in it? I just picked up a tub of that stuff just in case (I keep it at work, it keeps me from drinking too much coffee or sweet drinks), but I stay at 500 ml a day max.
I've also used Benefibre in the past, it's unflavored and you can't taste it in pure water.

[Tebryn]

Any word on Metamucil? That orange stuff that tastes like orange Tang and has loads of fibre in it? I just picked up a tub of that stuff just in case (I keep it at work, it keeps me from drinking too much coffee or sweet drinks), but I stay at 500 ml a day max.
I've also used Benefibre in the past, it's unflavored and you can't taste it in pure water.

It doesn't taste like Tang by any stretch of the imagination. It's terrible stuff, had to drink it as a kid because I had a fiber deficiency and...man...so bad.

[Story Time]

Wait, is fruit evil or just juice? Fresh fruit can't be as evil as juice, which is indeed basically sugar water. Delicious sugar water. I drink tea instead. Very lightly sweetened tea.

As a rule, the more live a food is, the more good for your body it is. So...fruit is good. Juice is less good, not evil, than fruit. Home-made juice is better than store-bought juice. Store-bought anything is usually highly processed to the point that anything home-made is superior to it now.

The biggest issue with juice, beside the sweet drink issue mentioned above is the fact that juice is not water. Fantastic as fruit is, juice can not do for the body what water can as water does not, or should not, contain sugar which must then be processed through the body.

Drug sugars ( that is, sugars which do not come directly from eaten food ) ...require vitamins and minerals to move through the body. Moving sugars through the body depletes or misplaces the body's supply of things things. So...eating too much sugar, and especially processed sugars in principle, is a less good idea than moderating the amount of sugar consumed.

Really, it depends on each persons' body type. A thin person who runs often and uses that sugar fuel quickly can justify consuming more for fuel purposes, but they still require the other nutrients to address the sugar. Obese persons, obviously, shouldn't be consuming so much sugar because that exacerbates their problem.

Fun Fact: Green leafy vegetables use more caloric fuel from the body than what they give to the body. This does not mean vitamins and fiber, of course.

Just some thoughts... :smallbiggrin:

[Starwulf]

I am a fan of them too, but for anyone with Diabetes or Hypoglycemia beware. The body begins doing things with insulin the minute you taste sweet things. If the insulin is dumped into your bloodstream and there is nothing there for it to react with, that can be bad. It is a common danger of artificial sweeteners, but not a severe danger or anything.
That said, I'm hypocglycemic (or at least I'm pretty sure I am) and I still use Crystal Light. I just make sure that my blood sugar isn't getting low before hand, if it is I eat something first or just drink regular water.

Hmm, wow, I honestly did not know that. So what you're saying is, if my blood sugar is already a bit low, and I consume a sugar-free drink like a bottle of water sweetened with Crystal Light, it'll make my body start using the insulin I take(and/or still produce) because it can't tell the difference, and then my sugar will drop further? Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely have to avoid that in the future.



Any word on Metamucil? That orange stuff that tastes like orange Tang and has loads of fibre in it? I just picked up a tub of that stuff just in case (I keep it at work, it keeps me from drinking too much coffee or sweet drinks), but I stay at 500 ml a day max.
I've also used Benefibre in the past, it's unflavored and you can't taste it in pure water.

I've never tried Metamucil, I've heard it's not very tasty, plus I get the majority of my fiber in a day from Fiber One Cereal, the rest from 100% Whole Wheat Stone ground bread(Arnolds!) and/or whole-wheat crackers.

[Gnoman]

Fun Fact: Green leafy vegetables use more caloric fuel from the body than what they give to the body. This does not mean vitamins and fiber, of course.


This is entirely a myth. "Negative Calorie Foods" do not exist. It's quite possible to gain weight eating nothing but water, lettuce, and vitamin supplements.

[Starwulf]

This is entirely a myth. "Negative Calorie Foods" do not exist. It's quite possible to gain weight eating nothing but water, lettuce, and vitamin supplements.

While it probably is possible, it's highly improbable. You would either have to be A: Severely under-weight from a eating disorder or something of the like, or B: Completely immobile and eating 10 pounds of leafy greens a day. Many leafy green vegetables have less then 50 calories a serving, and assuming a minimum of 1 oz per serving, you would need at least 40 oz a day just to make 2,000 calories. Assuming a normal sized person, even completely immobile you're going to burn at least 500 calories a day(probably more), which would be another 10z, so 3+lbs of Leafy greens just to maintain your body weight. To gain/lose a lb, it's what..3700 calories? so, another 70oz of leafy greens, which is another 4+lbs. so about 8lbs of leafy greens a day just to gain a single pound eating leafy greens, assuming 50 calories a serving and a serving of 1 oz. I don't know about you, but I couldn't possibly eat 8lbs of ANYTHING in a single day, so, while theoretical, I don't think it's really plausible.

edit: Was talking to my wife, she says stuff like lettuce and celery have 10 calories or less a serving. So, even more unlikely ^^

[Gnoman]

True, it's exceedingly difficult. That's where the "negative calorie" myth came from in the first place. My point was that, assuming you could actually eat them in large quantities (or have a stunted metabolism from illness or such) you would gain weight, as the actual process of consuming them has a net positive calorie rate.

[Xuc Xac]

As someone else mentioned, humans have been eating fruit since before recorded history and since we even have an enzyme (fructokinase) dedicated for processing and assimilating it into our metabolism, I'd say we're used to ingesting it.

What they didn't mention is that for almost all of human history, humans only ate fruit a few times a year when the local fruits became ripe. We're using to eating it every year, not every day.

[Rockphed]

You know, I'm getting really tired of this sort of stuff. "Waaaah, fruit juice is evil, waaaaah mushrooms are radioactive, waaaaah, mentioning [curved yellow berries] will get your forum posts deleted...." :smallmad:

I was going to say something, but kpenguin beat me to it.


Y'now, by mentioning mentioning [curved yellow fruit], you are in yourself mentioning [yellow arcing fruit]. :smallamused:

I wonder how many ways I can refer to [kinda like plantains] without actually speaking their forbidden name. Why doesn't Rawhide like us to speak of [impossible-to-juggle-monstrosities-against-nature] again?

In more topical terms, my wife, who is an athletic trainer, and thus qualified to speak on such matters, yells at athletes who replace their water entirely with things like Powerade. I think the most heinous case she yelled a guy out for getting cramps and then told him he could, at most, have one bottle of Powerade for every bottle of water he drank. In short, despite what the makers thereof would have you believe, drinking no water that is not full of sugars and salts isn't good for you.

[Brother Oni]

True, it's exceedingly difficult. That's where the "negative calorie" myth came from in the first place. My point was that, assuming you could actually eat them in large quantities (or have a stunted metabolism from illness or such) you would gain weight, as the actual process of consuming them has a net positive calorie rate.

I was wondering whether it'd be possible to create the 'perfect' diet food that consisted of sufficient fibre to bulk out the stomach and mess about with various biological/chemical tricks (such as optical isomerism) to limit the actual calorific intake?

It does beg the question of whether we'd be able to taste the difference and whether such a foodstuff be practically/economically viable.


What they didn't mention is that for almost all of human history, humans only ate fruit a few times a year when the local fruits became ripe. We're using to eating it every year, not every day.

We also have an acid stomach, designed to eat semi-rotten meat. Does that mean we should only eat meat that's been strung up a few days and is starting to smell? :smallamused:


Why doesn't Rawhide like us to speak of [impossible-to-juggle-monstrosities-against-nature] again?

Probably for the same reason that Roland doesn't-There is no mind control. Go back to your fun citizen.

[The Extinguisher]

We also have an acid stomach, designed to eat semi-rotten meat. Does that mean we should only eat meat that's been strung up a few days and is starting to smell? :smallamused:

You mean that's not how you eat your meat?

I thought that was how everybody ate their meat.

[Manga Shoggoth]

We also have an acid stomach, designed to eat semi-rotten meat. Does that mean we should only eat meat that's been strung up a few days and is starting to smell? :smallamused:

What? Can't a man eat his pheasant in peace now?

[Brother Oni]

What? Can't a man eat his pheasant in peace now?

Of course you can but you still cook it first, generally invalidating the issue of whether it's been suitably aged or not. :smalltongue:

Cooking/food processing is an invention. We were originally intended to eat meat raw (lucky scavenges of bush fire victims aside).

[Karoht]

Hmm, wow, I honestly did not know that. So what you're saying is, if my blood sugar is already a bit low, and I consume a sugar-free drink like a bottle of water sweetened with Crystal Light, it'll make my body start using the insulin I take(and/or still produce) because it can't tell the difference, and then my sugar will drop further? Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely have to avoid that in the future.Yeah, just something to be aware of. I discovered this myself one day, and I'm pretty sure I read an article on wiki regarding artificial sweetners, it mentioned the insulin reaction beginnin on taste as a potential health risk of artificial sweetners.

Then there's Stevia. All natural sweetner, it's a leafy green plant that looks like mint, I think it's actually a derivitive of mint. Also goes by the name sweetleaf if memory serves, I've only recently been able to find it in garden centers. My grandfather started using it, he prefers it over things like Splenda for baking and whatnot. And yes, you can buy granulated Stevia. It's on teh intarwebs!
Stevia leaves + Mint leaves in a tea bag makes for an excellent tea BTW.



I've never tried Metamucil, I've heard it's not very tasty, plus I get the majority of my fiber in a day from Fiber One Cereal, the rest from 100% Whole Wheat Stone ground bread(Arnolds!) and/or whole-wheat crackers.I like metamucil, 2 teaspoons in 500 ml water tastes like orange kool-aid or tang to me (if a bit weak) and as long as you mix it in properly (and don't let it sit or settle for very long) I've never had a problem with the taste or grittyness everyone else describes.
Benefibre I actually like better. A teaspoon of Benefibre, some lemon juice and some water, and a bit of ice in my water bottle, and I'm good to go.



Of course you can but you still cook it first, generally invalidating the issue of whether it's been suitably aged or not. :smalltongue:

Cooking/food processing is an invention. We were originally intended to eat meat raw (lucky scavenges of bush fire victims aside).


Oh boy, let the raw food / vegan diet arguement commence!

Alright in all seriousness, our early formative years (eating raw or even rotting meat) was more about what we as a people could do, not really about what our bodies should do. And yes, we only ate fruit seasonally as it was available, we still ate it, probably in large quantities while it was available. Especially in our early hunter gatherer days where berries were a major part of the diet (easy to forage for, very portable, preservable, stayed fresh for a while) and were probably a staple for hunters out searching, particularly in the early morning. And during the summers when trees were ripe with peaches and pears, I guarantee you that our ancestors probably took armfulls of fruit back to their families, or just sat under a tree and ate one's fill, much the same way primates do when they encounter fruit in the wild.

Did they all experience some negative health effects? Probably. Were they signifigant in that they died earlier in life as a result? Probably not likely, especially given the documented and verifiable health benefits of eating fruit (thereby consuming the juice) VS eating a diet with less fruit. So is it likely that they experienced more benefit than harm? Likely so.

PS-I also consider there to be a difference between juice (made from fruit directly) and flavored drinks (IE-Fanta, even if it claims to be flavored using some percentage of 'fruit juice').

[The Durvin]

Highly processed fruit juice is evil, relative to water. Avoid anything marketed to kids and anything made mostly of corn and you'll be fine.

As a Mountain Dew-chugging carnivore that lives with a vegetarian that sometimes goes vegan, I've heard a lot of this debate, and I can tell you for certain that a lot of the people that tell you the problems with processed food and all that are using some pretty dubious logic. For example, yes, if you leave a piece of meat overnight in a jar of coke, it will dissolve. But you know what will dissolve it faster? The acid in your very own belly. She showed me an article about how microwaves something something "biophotons", which she took to mean that she should never use a microwave again. So I looked it up, and biophotons are light produced by bio-luminescence; the guy was just making stuff up. My point is, check your sources.

And on the subject of organic produce, I can tell you that the stuff out of the organic section of the grocery store tastes better than the regular stuff, and I admit that I "feel better" as organic-philes like to say, but I try to avoid the stuff from actual farmers' markets, because it always tastes like crap and has bugs on it. Yes, we pulled a few caterpillars off the kale, but how sure are we that we got them all? Not even a little.

[Knaight]

Highly processed fruit juice is evil, relative to water. Avoid anything marketed to kids and anything made mostly of corn and you'll be fine.
That's less a matter of highly processed fruit juice being evil and more a matter of corn syrup not having health benefits, combined with it coming in rather excessive qualities. Stuff like Sunny Day and Tang really aren't the sort of things that should be categorized as fruit juice.


As a Mountain Dew-chugging carnivore that lives with a vegetarian that sometimes goes vegan, I've heard a lot of this debate, and I can tell you for certain that a lot of the people that tell you the problems with processed food and all that are using some pretty dubious logic. For example, yes, if you leave a piece of meat overnight in a jar of coke, it will dissolve. But you know what will dissolve it faster? The acid in your very own belly. She showed me an article about how microwaves something something "biophotons", which she took to mean that she should never use a microwave again. So I looked it up, and biophotons are light produced by bio-luminescence; the guy was just making stuff up. My point is, check your sources.
Do you know where this article is? That sounds like it has the potential to be completely hilarious to anyone with a half decent knowledge of physics and chemistry.


And on the subject of organic produce, I can tell you that the stuff out of the organic section of the grocery store tastes better than the regular stuff, and I admit that I "feel better" as organic-philes like to say, but I try to avoid the stuff from actual farmers' markets, because it always tastes like crap and has bugs on it. Yes, we pulled a few caterpillars off the kale, but how sure are we that we got them all? Not even a little.
On the organic stuff - you do need to be aware of cognitive biases. You know when you are eating organic stuff, you know that it allegedly tastes better and makes one feel better, and as both of these are matters of perception they can be deceived simply because you think something is organic. One would have to test this with some degree of blinding (double blinding would actually be pretty easy, and as such is ideal) to see how it holds up.

Note that I'm not saying that the organic stuff isn't healthier and doesn't taste better overall. Merely that qualitative assessment is really easy to warp with preexisting information, even if that information is a pile of lies.

On farmers markets: I've had pretty good luck with them, and everything you say about organic food I'd say about food from farmers markets - with the exact same qualifications about cognitive biases.

[Starwulf]

Yeah, just something to be aware of. I discovered this myself one day, and I'm pretty sure I read an article on wiki regarding artificial sweetners, it mentioned the insulin reaction beginnin on taste as a potential health risk of artificial sweetners.

Then there's Stevia. All natural sweetner, it's a leafy green plant that looks like mint, I think it's actually a derivitive of mint. Also goes by the name sweetleaf if memory serves, I've only recently been able to find it in garden centers. My grandfather started using it, he prefers it over things like Splenda for baking and whatnot. And yes, you can buy granulated Stevia. It's on teh intarwebs!
Stevia leaves + Mint leaves in a tea bag makes for an excellent tea BTW.


I like metamucil, 2 teaspoons in 500 ml water tastes like orange kool-aid or tang to me (if a bit weak) and as long as you mix it in properly (and don't let it sit or settle for very long) I've never had a problem with the taste or grittyness everyone else describes.
Benefibre I actually like better. A teaspoon of Benefibre, some lemon juice and some water, and a bit of ice in my water bottle, and I'm good to go.


Thanks for the tips and the great information about insulin and artificial sweeteners. I"ll definitely have to be careful of that for now on, as I often have low sugar in the mornings for whatever reason, yet the first thing I do is grab a bottle of sugar free Hawaiian punch to down.

@Knaight: I'll definitely agree on the cognitive bias stuff. I don't taste a lick of difference between Organic food and it's normal counterpart, but I also will swear up and down that farmers market veggies taste far better then anything I can buy in a supermarket.

[KenderWizard]

Well for now I believe that fructose is harmful, at least in any decent quantities, which is what I typically do when I drink stuff. So avoid it, it's for the best anyways, and the amount of sugar in fruit juice, harmful or not, it's probably for the best that I avoid it all together.

I suppose switching from fruit juice to water is a good step, because water is the best thing for drinking, about 90% of the time. Aside from after shock and after heavy exercise.

Speaking of which, apparently milk is better for you than those "exercise drinks". (Unless you're lactose intolerant, I suppose!) For replacing electrolytes and such after exercise, I mean. It's non-processed and has as good as or better balance of the stuff you need to replace and is easier to digest than those crazy drinks.

The key thing about all this is that everything is bad for you, in huge quantities. The trick of food (one I'm still learning) is moderation, and control. Juice is worse than water. Okay, but I don't like water and I'll go mad trying to drink nothing but. Solution: diluted fruit juice, milk and some water. Occasional fizzy drinks for a treat.

Also, I understand that the sweeteners they use in "diet" drinks, for the insulin reason and sometimes just of their own accord, are generally worse for most people than the non-diet drinks are. Less calories doesn't always mean inherently better!

[Melayl]

Do you know where this article is? That sounds like it has the potential to be completely hilarious to anyone with a half decent knowledge of physics and chemistry.
Mythbusters did an episode on this once. IIRC, a whole steak, when left in Coke for 7 days, showed no appreciable "digestion", but a whole steak left in hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) of pH approximating normal gastric contents was almost completely gone.

Also, as to the "fruit juice is evil" debate: as many others have said, everything is bad for you in exaggerated amounts. Contradicting reports/papers come out every other year about foods, whether it be salt, butter, margarine, sucrose, fructose, red meat, alcohol, or whatever.

My opinion on such things is "All things in moderation, including moderation." A famous quote by somone whose name I can't recall at the moment.

[Brother Oni]

Oh boy, let the raw food / vegan diet arguement commence!


I wasn't aware there was an argument. :smallconfused:

Humans are designed to omnivorous, whether we take advantage of that fact is a lifestyle choice (and one I'm not making any judgements on).



Alright in all seriousness, our early formative years (eating raw or even rotting meat) was more about what we as a people could do, not really about what our bodies should do.

While I agree it was something that people could do, the fact that our bodies allowed us to do it meant that we probably took advantage of it whenever possible.

Apparently it's quite energetically expensive to bio-synthesise hydrochloric acid and something like that wouldn't be retained if it was an accidental side effect, rather than an intended function.

[Heliomance]

Uh... evolution has no "intent" in that way. It was accidental, it simply turned out to be advantageous, so was retained. That's how evolution works; it;s not sentient.

[Mando Knight]

Uh... evolution has no "intent" in that way. It was accidental, it simply turned out to be advantageous, so was retained. That's how evolution works; it;s not sentient.

There is a fairly vocal set of scientists that work to provide interpretation of the existing data such that organic life is too neat to be the result random chance, and therefore needed to have been designed somehow, by someone or something. Yes, they're often religiously affiliated, but that's beside the point.

Point is, organic life is the most complex nano-machinery known to mankind. It self-propagates. It adapts to environmental conditions. It forms macroscopic multi-cellular life forms. It can repair many kinds of its own structural damage with just time and resources.

The human stomach is a part of that complexity: it is a very adaptable muscular pouch that is part of the system that allows humans to process a very wide variety of organic matter. If needed, it is capable of digesting many things that we would no longer consider foodstuff.

[Brother Oni]

Uh... evolution has no "intent" in that way. It was accidental, it simply turned out to be advantageous, so was retained. That's how evolution works; it;s not sentient.

Maybe 'intended' was the wrong word to use, but the point I was trying to make was that an energetically expensive function would not be kept if it wasn't of some benefit to the organism.

I was trying to dodge the 'how it got there' question for the reasons that Mando Knight pointed out, and concentrating on 'it's there; why is it still there?'.

[Mauve Shirt]

I drank orange juice yesterday. Then my immune system lifted a bus. :smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

:smalltongue:
I drank orange juice yesterday. Then my immune system lifted a bus. :smallbiggrin:

Drat, anectodal evidence that fructose causes components of the human body to commit motor vehicle theft. Fruit juice is evil after all! :smalltongue:

[The Succubus]

I drank orange juice yesterday. Then my immune system lifted a bus. :smallbiggrin:

I drank orange juice yesterday. Then my immune system lifted a succubus. :smalltongue:

[Dogmantra]

Whereas I drank milk, and the only thing my immune system lifted was a universal cereal bus.

[Weezer]

Whereas I drank milk, and the only thing my immune system lifted was a universal cereal bus.

Groan. That was so very bad. :smallamused:

[Asta Kask]

I used to be so hungry I could murder a bowl of Frostie's. I guess I was a... cereal killer.

[Ravens_cry]

That pun just curdles my stomach, no whey I am going to let it stand. Seriously, stop milking the joke, I lactose kinds of patience.

[The Succubus]

Thread derail....successful! :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

So I recently attended a lecture on nutrition and food at a Quaker Summer Gathering and learned that fruit juice is bad for you.

Personally, I really, really hate when dietary information is summarized as "good for you"/"bad for you".

Both tend to be wildly inaccurate at best, and woefully complete on details. Instead of such silly summaries, just state the actual facts like "fruit juice is low on fiber compared to fresh fruit".

I mean, if you're replacing a soda with a cranberry juice, you've probably made an upgrade.

[Asta Kask]

Thread derail....successful! :smallbiggrin:

Sometimes I think we should have a rule banning people who make too bad puns. :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

There is a fairly vocal set of scientists that work to provide interpretation of the existing data such that organic life is too neat to be the result random chance, and therefore needed to have been designed somehow, by someone or something. Yes, they're often religiously affiliated, but that's beside the point.

The number of ID scientists out there who are not religiously affiliated is essentially statistically irrelevant. Even taken as a whole, they are basically statistically irrelevant compared to scientists as a whole.

If you'd like to discuss religion, that's fine...though you should probably do so on a forum that doesn't ban it, but standard scientific knowledge has no motive ascribed to evolution any more than we would ascribe motives to gravity.


The human stomach is a part of that complexity: it is a very adaptable muscular pouch that is part of the system that allows humans to process a very wide variety of organic matter. If needed, it is capable of digesting many things that we would no longer consider foodstuff.

Culture changes more rapidly than biological evolution can. Note also that there is a rather large difference between "can digest" and "should digest". People can get by on rather a lot of substandard fare. Doesn't mean it's entirely free of consequences.

The ability to eat semi-rotten meat instead of starving is of a lot of value in desperate situations, as it's clearly better than starving even if it is risky... but if starving is not really on the table, then eating semi-rotten meat is not a logical diet choice.

[Karoht]

but standard scientific knowledge has no motive ascribed to evolution any more than we would ascribe motives to gravity.No way man. Gravity and 'the man' have a pact, trying to keep us down man!



I wasn't aware there was an argument. :smallconfused:
Humans are designed to omnivorous, whether we take advantage of that fact is a lifestyle choice (and one I'm not making any judgements on).Oh, you won't get an arguement from me. But you get some pretty interesting claims regarding what we should and should not eat. I once met a 'vegan' who said the only thing our body is supposed to be able to process properly is potatoes. Her source? Some 'scientific article' in a 'scientific journal' that said that they had some evidence regarding enzymes found at some "ancient celtic burial site."

When I told her that potatoes don't originally come from Ireland (as per supposed stereotype) or indeed any part of Europe and in fact come from South America, therefor anything to do with a potato in an ancient celtic burial site is either a genuine mistake or blatant lie, she turned the most amuzing shade of red. Mind you her brow furrowed rather sharply when I asked for the name of this journal so I could publically indicate that a body of 'scientists' couldn't be bothered to even fact check let alone conduct science. She didn't give me the name. Shame that.



While I agree it was something that people could do, the fact that our bodies allowed us to do it meant that we probably took advantage of it whenever possible.

Apparently it's quite energetically expensive to bio-synthesise hydrochloric acid and something like that wouldn't be retained if it was an accidental side effect, rather than an intended function.How we got it and why we still have it. Yeup. Best questions to ask. Any idea how often I have to explain what a vestigal organ is to some of the intelligent design crowd?


Back on the topic of processing sugars and fruit juice, I find it interesting that no one has brought up diabetes just yet.
My grandfather is a diabetic. He's also a swiss baker and Choclatier. Oh the cruel irony. At any rate, one of the number one recommended foods to avoid as a diabetic is white bread. Yeup, plain white bread. The sugars/carbs involved are so high he has to take an insulin tablet after eating some. Yet he drinks fruit juices without issue, though he tends to stick to tea mostly.
Any thoughts on that?

[Ravens_cry]

Sometimes I think we should have a rule banning people who make too bad puns. :smallwink:
No whey, we'd lose half the folks here, as cheesy as we may be. Curd you stand you stand it just a little longer; there's no reason to be blue.

[Knaight]

How we got it and why we still have it. Yeup. Best questions to ask. Any idea how often I have to explain what a vestigal organ is to some of the intelligent design crowd?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have to explain that significantly less than you have to explain that evolution is a population level effect?

[Karoht]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have to explain that significantly less than you have to explain that evolution is a population level effect?I was unaware of that, though I don't pay loads of attention to evolution in the first place.
I find that pointing out old and useless organs that we've essentially outgrown tends to be a really good way to put a hole in the ID crowd, as it more or less demonstrates that not all designs are useful, therefore unintelligent or intentless. It's easy to keep the context when you point to the appendix as something that exists in human beings right now as a non-useful organ.

[Starwulf]

Back on the topic of processing sugars and fruit juice, I find it interesting that no one has brought up diabetes just yet.
My grandfather is a diabetic. He's also a swiss baker and Choclatier. Oh the cruel irony. At any rate, one of the number one recommended foods to avoid as a diabetic is white bread. Yeup, plain white bread. The sugars/carbs involved are so high he has to take an insulin tablet after eating some. Yet he drinks fruit juices without issue, though he tends to stick to tea mostly.
Any thoughts on that?

No real thoughts to add, other then that my doctor, when I was first diagnosed with Diabetes, the first thing he told me was "You should try your hardest to switch to 100% whole wheat bread, White bread is basically worse then candy for your sugar levels". Sadly, he's right. When I finally did make the switch, I saw a drop in my sugar levels that was completely disproportionate(or so I thought) with what I was getting rid of. I'm talking like a drop of 60 points a day just by eliminating white bread(and I was only eating like 4 pieces a day). It's basically concentrated sugar, however that's possible(I really don't understand it still to be honest).

[Karoht]

No real thoughts to add, other then that my doctor, when I was first diagnosed with Diabetes, the first thing he told me was "You should try your hardest to switch to 100% whole wheat bread, White bread is basically worse then candy for your sugar levels". Sadly, he's right. When I finally did make the switch, I saw a drop in my sugar levels that was completely disproportionate(or so I thought) with what I was getting rid of. I'm talking like a drop of 60 points a day just by eliminating white bread(and I was only eating like 4 pieces a day). It's basically concentrated sugar, however that's possible(I really don't understand it still to be honest).

Exactly. So if fruit juice is bad, how much worse is white bread?

It is concentrated sugar because during the yeast processes, it's making carbohydrates and sugars, along with releasing CO2, which causes the bubbles in the bread and greatly changes it's density. I'm not sure the actualy chemical difference with whole wheat VS white flour, but I do know that white flour bread does in fact rise signifigantly faster, so it's probably processing more carbs and sugars.

[Jack Squat]

Exactly. So if fruit juice is bad, how much worse is white bread?

It is concentrated sugar because during the yeast processes, it's making carbohydrates and sugars, along with releasing CO2, which causes the bubbles in the bread and greatly changes it's density.

Huh? The fermentation from the yeast takes the simple carbohydrates and converts it to CO2 and alcohol. This happens in all bread, and really anywhere where yeast and sugar(carbs) is involved.


I'm not sure the actualy chemical difference with whole wheat VS white flour, but I do know that white flour bread does in fact rise signifigantly faster, so it's probably processing more carbs and sugars.

The difference is that whole grain bread has fiber and other things that help slow the digestion of the carbs. White bread doesn't have these, so it digests faster, and is absorbed quicker into the bloodstream.

[Tirian]

Exactly. So if fruit juice is bad, how much worse is white bread?

It's not a contest, and it's also not a value judgment. One should strive to eat food that complements our general and individual digestive processes, and strong circumstantial evidence shows that fiber is a crucial part of a complete diet. That's fiber from grains, fiber from fruits, fibers from vegetables, fiber from beans, and any other fiber source you'd want to think about. Seeing the epidemic of hypoglycemia, it seems like common sense to make sure that you're eating a balanced diet, even to the point of minimizing eating unbalanced meals or snacks that you intend to balance out later.

Someone asked earlier why we shouldn't also go back to eating rotten meat. That's not an unfair question, but we have yet to find a reason to suspect that our digestive processes can't handle fresh meat. (That's not to say that there aren't legitimate issues around meat eating, like animal fat and hormones, just that there are no known benefits to either the successes or the failures of historical meat preservation techniques.)

[Heliomance]

Whereas I drank milk, and the only thing my immune system lifted was a universal cereal bus.

Serial. Unless you were making a doublepun intentionally.

...there has to be a way to make a pun out of leukaryote (sp?).

[The Succubus]

It's not a contest, and it's also not a value judgment. One should strive to eat food that complements our general and individual digestive processes, and strong circumstantial evidence shows that fiber is a crucial part of a complete diet. That's fiber from grains, fiber from fruits, fibers from vegetables, fiber from beans, and any other fiber source you'd want to think about. Seeing the epidemic of hypoglycemia, it seems like common sense to make sure that you're eating a balanced diet, even to the point of minimizing eating unbalanced meals or snacks that you intend to balance out later.

Someone asked earlier why we shouldn't also go back to eating rotten meat. That's not an unfair question, but we have yet to find a reason to suspect that our digestive processes can't handle fresh meat. (That's not to say that there aren't legitimate issues around meat eating, like animal fat and hormones, just that there are no known benefits to either the successes or the failures of historical meat preservation techniques.)

The scene: Behind a bike shed in a school playground. Two figures gaze around briefly to ensure their privacy.

Dealer: Back again, huh....
Kid: Keep your voice down dammit!
Dealer: Relax. You want some of the usual to help settle your nerves?
Kid: It's not doing it for me anymore.
Dealer: Well, I do have something with a little "extra" to it but it'll cost ya...
Kid: Just shut up and give it to me!

The dealer reaches into his coat and brings out an object wrapped in clingfilm. It is comprised of two white squares with a red stick substance between them.

Parents - talk to your kids about the evils of jam sandwiches before someone else does.

[Maelstrom]

Serial. Unless you were making a doublepun intentionally.

...there has to be a way to make a pun out of leukaryote (sp?).

And you go and have to ruin it :smallannoyed:

[Dogmantra]

Serial. Unless you were making a doublepun intentionally.

Intentional doublepun, hon. You know how I roll.

[H Birchgrove]

The scene: Behind a bike shed in a school playground. Two figures gaze around briefly to ensure their privacy.

Dealer: Back again, huh....
Kid: Keep your voice down dammit!
Dealer: Relax. You want some of the usual to help settle your nerves?
Kid: It's not doing it for me anymore.
Dealer: Well, I do have something with a little "extra" to it but it'll cost ya...
Kid: Just shut up and give it to me!

The dealer reaches into his coat and brings out an object wrapped in clingfilm. It is comprised of two white squares with a red stick substance between them.

Parents - talk to your kids about the evils of jam sandwiches before someone else does.

:smallbiggrin: Marry me.