Least I Could Do

[Traab]

Is it a bad thing when im not entirely sure of what the other guys name is, or have any clue as to why he might be upset? It occurs to me that I dont actually remember ANY of the other characters names. Just rayne. As for my second question, its not an "i dont know" as in ill be surprised when his problem comes up out of left field, its an "I dont know if he even has a girlfriend who could leave him, a job that could fire him, or some sort of physical condition that could make him sick." I remember nothing about him.

[Weimann]

While admirably consistent in terms of updates and sometimes actually surprisingly good when exploring some of the consequences of Rayne's lifestyle, LICD was always the Rayne Show, and everyone not Rayne is going to be a tertiary characters behind him and, well, him again. I could dig it when I read the archives, but when I was up to date, it quickly grew old and I stopped reading it.

So is it a bad thing that you know nothing about a prominent character in thecomic. Yes. But it's hardly your fault.

[Traab]

And now this latest update my first reaction was, "Yay, now we get to see how rayne has problems too, even though they dont have any real impact on the comic whatsoever." Next week he meets an amputee and we learn he is actually missing an arm and just has an excellent prosthetic.

[PhantomFox]

Yeah, there's the occasional hints at a deeper character to him, but it's never followed up. I don't know what I still follow this thing, it's very pluh, but it updates every day, and get just enough smiles so that I haven't forgotten about it.

[Mephit]

It's usually one of the first comics I check every day because the art is good and it's sure to update every day.

Also, after long and hard thinking, I have come to the conclusion that his name is John, he is a teacher, and he has no girlfriend.

[Shogo]

His name is John.

He's a school teacher.

He occasionally hallucinates that he's talking to Darth Vader. (Vader is apparently his conscience.)

He's a little bit obsessed with the idea of meeting a soul mate. (Or he was.) But he never really had much luck with the ladies. (He did hook up with a student's mom once.)

He used to be more prominent because he's based on Sohmer's former best friend. They had a falling out or something, so John was more or less shunted off into the corner to make way for a new character who we were told was always Rayne's closest friend, and it isn't weird at all that we hadn't seen him earlier. (That guy he usually talks to in the park. Has a kid now.)

So it could be he's depressed because of teaching pressure. Because kids are evil.

Or he could just be lonely.

----------------------------

And wow. That's a lot of stuff off the top of my head when I don't even like LICD. (I especially hate Rayne.)

But meh, there's like 3 to 5 webcomics I continue to read despite hating them.

[Gez]

If there's a LICD thread, it needs to have some Kris (http://www.checkerboardnightmare.com/d/20060221.shtml) Straub (http://chainsawsuit.com/2012/01/06/addictions-and-the-human-toll/) in it.

[Traab]

His name is John.

He's a school teacher.

He occasionally hallucinates that he's talking to Darth Vader. (Vader is apparently his conscience.)

He's a little bit obsessed with the idea of meeting a soul mate. (Or he was.) But he never really had much luck with the ladies. (He did hook up with a student's mom once.)

He used to be more prominent because he's based on Sohmer's former best friend. They had a falling out or something, so John was more or less shunted off into the corner to make way for a new character who we were told was always Rayne's closest friend, and it isn't weird at all that we hadn't seen him earlier. (That guy he usually talks to in the park. Has a kid now.)

So it could be he's depressed because of teaching pressure. Because kids are evil.

Or he could just be lonely.

----------------------------

And wow. That's a lot of stuff off the top of my head when I don't even like LICD. (I especially hate Rayne.)

But meh, there's like 3 to 5 webcomics I continue to read despite hating them.

Oh yeah, now I remember him. The odd thing is, I remembered details about everyone else. It must be the fact that he got shunted off for so long.

[Seerow]

Oh yeah, now I remember him. The odd thing is, I remembered details about everyone else. It must be the fact that he got shunted off for so long.

Which is clearly why he's depressed now. He's been ignored by the universe for years.

[Draconi Redfir]

Which is clearly why he's depressed now. He's been ignored by the universe for years.

Remember the indian guy? (or at least some kind of tan-skinned guy) he's been all but dumped from the comic, and even when he was in it he wasnt that important. John's got heven compared to him:smalltongue:

Edit: His name is Rob. He has a rant about it Here (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20030708) and his most recent appearance is here (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20080617), at least four years ago.

[TheArsenal]

Is it that misogynistic webcomic that insulted Calvin and Hobbes (For being noble and not selling out), webcomics, and anime from the DD thread?

[Traab]

Is it that misogynistic webcomic that insulted Calvin and Hobbes (For being noble and not selling out), webcomics, and anime from the DD thread?

Yes indeed.

[T-O-E]

I know the latest comic is supposed to be about how Rayne is supposed to be so awesome that he could not possibly be depressed, but it just comes off as this (http://chainsawsuit.com/2012/01/06/addictions-and-the-human-toll/), putting a hilarious slant on all the past strips.

I checked the discussion for that strip and a lot of people were praising the new depth of Rayne, but does anyone actually think Sohmer was writing all those self-indulgent sex jokes about his Sue with this in mind? Do you think Rayne will gain any real depth or character development after this?* Could anyone who reads the strip post any actual signs of this other than typical Sue behaviour and the past two comics?

Also there is no excuse for this travesty. (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20120105)

Oh and there's something really off about the "recommendations" at the bottom that lead to amazon to generate referrals for the author. I'm ok with normal ads but this seems so dishonest, in that he probably doesn't care about what's actually on the list. CAD does it too.

*Don't answer that.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also there is no excuse for this travesty. (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20120105)

I dunno, I mind the ones that are that over the top less than the more subtle "author fellating himself to get over his insecurities" ones. At least here you can tell he's just trolling for a reaction.

[Reverent-One]

Is it that misogynistic webcomic that insulted Calvin and Hobbes (For being noble and not selling out), webcomics, and anime from the DD thread?

Wait, wanting a writer/artist you admire to do more work is an insult now?

[Trazoi]

Wait, wanting a writer/artist you admire to do more work is an insult now?
Arsenal is referring to the first panel of this strip, (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20110925) which IMO is more like "that Bill Watterson, whatta rube missing on easy money." But I might be missing the intended humour, much like with ever LICD strip ever. At least I don't think "funny" is the same as "send into a blind rage".

I really hate LICD, to the point where I'm not sure why my reaction is that strong. Not even Shredded Moose brought out the same reaction. My guess it's the combination of the most blatant author insert sue ever, the anti-humour with the horrible horrible themes combined with the perma-smug faces. I can't get more than a dozen strips into the archive before I shut the browser down in a reflex action. It's like it is precision engineered to press all my buttons at once.

[PhantomFox]

Wait, wanting a writer/artist you admire to do more work is an insult now?

I believe the quote was
"I would have licensed the hell out of you"
"My creator lives in a cave"

Essentially he called Watterson a cave dwelling idealist for not allowing Calvin and Hobbes to be put on merchandise. Something Watterson felt very strongly about, stating that putting characters on commercial products took them out of their setting and cheapened the characters because of it. Someone probably remembers the details better than I.

[Reverent-One]

Arsenal is referring to the first panel of this strip, (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20110925) which IMO is more like "that Bill Watterson, whatta rube missing on easy money." But I might be missing the intended humour, much like with ever LICD strip ever. At least I don't think "funny" is the same as "send into a blind rage".


I believe the quote was
"I would have licensed the hell out of you"
"My creator lives in a cave"

Essentially he called Watterson a cave dwelling idealist for not allowing Calvin and Hobbes to be put on merchandise. Something Watterson felt very strongly about, stating that putting characters on commercial products took them out of their setting and cheapened the characters because of it. Someone probably remembers the details better than I.

See, that interpretation relies on lil' Rayne being intended to be a role model/correct. If that is the case, Sohmer also believes in removing math (or at least geometry) from school curriculum (http://leasticoulddo.com/). Since I doubt that is the case, and given Sohmer's statements of admiration for Watterson, I think you all are overreacting.

[Trazoi]

See, that interpretation relies on lil' Rayne being intended to be a role model/correct.
Counter-point: if that wasn't meant to the interpretation, then don't put Calvin in there agreeing with Li'l Rayne.

Edit: Argh, I knew it was a bad idea to comment in this thread. I really don't get why LICD is so perfect at annoying me. I haven't even read that much of it but it still manages to instantly get under my skin.

[Reverent-One]

Counter-point: if that wasn't meant to the interpretation, then don't put Calvin in there agreeing with Li'l Rayne.

Because Calvin is such a good role model himself? You don't think Calvin would like to be rich and have his own bobble heads and other such cheesy merchandise? I mean, I can see how one might arrive at that conclusion if that strip's all you look at, but I really see that as a big misinterpretation.

[Trazoi]

I'll concede that maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions on the intent of that one panel. But my comments on the rest of LICD still stand. I wish they were hyperbole.

The last time I ventured to LICD was when someone mentioned the recent story arc in December where Rayne befriends a lesbian by being the world's worst human being. That was the joke? Rayne is a horrible human being and never suffers the consequences of that? That's always the joke? I don't get it.

I don't get it.

[Reverent-One]

I'll concede that maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions on the intent of that one panel. But my comments on the rest of LICD still stand. I wish they were hyperbole.

The last time I ventured to LICD was when someone mentioned the recent story arc in December where Rayne befriends a lesbian by being the world's worst human being. That was the joke? Rayne is a horrible human being and never suffers the consequences of that? That's always the joke? I don't get it.

I don't get it.

Understandable. Personally, I just archive binge every few weeks/couple months, mainly for the "Beginnings" sunday strips and the occasional Ashley storyline or nerd joke, other than that, eh.

[Traab]

I'll concede that maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions on the intent of that one panel. But my comments on the rest of LICD still stand. I wish they were hyperbole.

The last time I ventured to LICD was when someone mentioned the recent story arc in December where Rayne befriends a lesbian by being the world's worst human being. That was the joke? Rayne is a horrible human being and never suffers the consequences of that? That's always the joke? I don't get it.

I don't get it.

Yeah, in any rational world, he would have been arrested, fired and sued, maybe not in that order, for how he went about tracking down the lesbian in the office. Possibly add beaten in there at some stage. But then again, thats always been the point. He is so stupidly over the top that (ideally) you cant help but laugh. I look at licd as south park, or family guy. Its the type of humor that isnt for everyone. Of course, it isnt anywheres near as good as either show, but I meant more as an example of humor types that you tend to either like or hate. I read it because sometimes it makes me chuckle, the entire arc where the secretary thought logan had eaten viagra to me was funny as hell. But then, im a horrible human being.

[TheArsenal]

The problem with LICD is that if you say the guy is just trolling I then think....why? Why do all this horrible crap! Its not funny, and it makes him look like an *******! Hussie this man is not.

So I come to the conclusion that 90% of LICD is genuine. And even if it was only 10% it would STILL be awful.

[Wraith]

I used to be a fan of LICD. Quite a big one - in fact, I was a Moderator at the LICD Forum for a couple of years. By and large, Ryan Sohmer and Lar de Souza (the current artist) are really nice guys.

The comic, however, has never been the same since Chad Porter (the previous artist, with the more angular style that worked between 2004-5) left to pusue his own projects. The storylines became less about how cool Rayne was and how much fun his life is, to nothing but how much MOAR FUNFUNFUN his life was than anybody else'.

I don't know why this is, but I've long since bid them fare thee well from my bookmarks and have never looked back. Just glancing at the links posted in this thread so far have made me cringe at the sort of thing that I have missed....

....But even so, I have fond memories of the Blind Ferret guys at conventions, and Lar's UStream every week. I highly recommend watching him even if you don't like LICD, he's a great example of a hard working and very talented artist, and he's pretty funny to boot. :smalltongue:

[Gez]

I kinda see what they might be aiming for, in terms of genre, but I think for it to work they should have made the comic to be about a magnificent bastard who 1. is an insufferable asshat, but to other people who are even worse insufferable asshats, so we can still root for him; 2. gets in and out of troubles because of his behavior and schemes; 3. has long strings of luck inevitably ruined when he pushes it even more, thinking it'd hold; 4 so that it'd always end with a return to the status quo.

Basically, a modern day adaptation of the Roman de Renard.

[Weimann]

See, that interpretation relies on lil' Rayne being intended to be a role model/correct. If that is the case, Sohmer also believes in removing math (or at least geometry) from school curriculum (http://leasticoulddo.com/). Since I doubt that is the case, and given Sohmer's statements of admiration for Watterson, I think you all are overreacting.Interestingly, some of this year's Nobel Prize winners have mentioned removing some of the geometry in favour of basic statistics in curriculums as being a good idea. I tend to agree.

[Traab]

I laughed at todays, if only because it was stupid.

[Traab]

Aaaaand we are done with serious time.

[Typewriter]

I've been reading LICD daily since I discovered it about 5 years ago.

As for the character John, someone already pointed out a bit of information about the character, but here's a bit more: Rayne and John were drifting apart and one day Rayne decided to try and help some people who were stuck in their car during an ice storm. He almost got hit by another car, but everything turned out fine. During this time John remained in the car refusing to help. Rayne was bothered by John refusing to involve himself stating, "John is never there", and started antagonizing John. They eventually talked and Rayne was sad that their relationship had faded so much. John has been a bit more prevalent in the comic since this happened a while ago.

As for the comic, and Rayne specifically: I see some people talking in this thread about what would happen in the real world, and how he could never get away with what he does, etc. etc. A few years ago Sohmer hired an animation studio and put out a music video where Rayne sang a song about how great it would be to live in a world with no consequences. A world where no one would get angry at you for what you said or did. I think that's the point of the comic - it's not the real world, it's a world where Rayne can simply do what he wants and because he tries hard and generally wants to help people everything is OK. Doesn't really require much rational thought beyond that, because it's an irrational situation.

[Nerd-o-rama]

As for the comic, and Rayne specifically: I see some people talking in this thread about what would happen in the real world, and how he could never get away with what he does, etc. etc. A few years ago Sohmer hired an animation studio and put out a music video where Rayne sang a song about how great it would be to live in a world with no consequences. A world where no one would get angry at you for what you said or did. I think that's the point of the comic - it's not the real world, it's a world where Rayne can simply do what he wants and because he tries hard and generally wants to help people everything is OK. Doesn't really require much rational thought beyond that, because it's an irrational situation.

It's escapist fantasy, sure. It just gets annoying in the sheer level of Gary Stu author self-insert. Especially since Rayne frequently does things (with no consequences) that are outright horrible and demeaning to real people (mostly women).

[Typewriter]

It's escapist fantasy, sure. It just gets annoying in the sheer level of Gary Stu author self-insert. Especially since Rayne frequently does things (with no consequences) that are outright horrible and demeaning to real people (mostly women).

How could a fictional character do anything demeaning to a real person? I think I'm misunderstanding you here. What it sounds like you're saying is:

1. In real life action 'X' is bad.
2. In the comic action 'X' isn't bad.
3. You don't care for action 'X' in the comic because it's not the same as it is in the real world.
4. You do this while admitting that it's escapist fantasy. Doesn't that mean that things don't have to behave the same way as they do in the real world?

Again, I think I must be misunderstanding you, so please clarify if I mis-stated something.

[Gez]

How could a fictional character do anything demeaning to a real person?

It's like, I don't know, Billy the Heretic? How could it be antisemitic for real when it's about fictional Jews?

The sexism and misogyny exhibited against fictional women in LICD* does affect real persons reading it.

(* Starting with its title...)

[Seerow]

It's like, I don't know, Billy the Heretic? How could it be antisemitic for real when it's about fictional Jews?

The sexism and misogyny exhibited against fictional women in LICD* does affect real persons reading it.

(* Starting with its title...)


Out of curiosity, do you also flip out on stand up comedians who make fun of women or whatever else, or is it just because this is a web comic?

[Gez]

No, but if somebody nearby is wondering why some people find said comedian to be offensive, I'll have some obvious to point out as well.

[Typewriter]

It's like, I don't know, Billy the Heretic? How could it be antisemitic for real when it's about fictional Jews?

The sexism and misogyny exhibited against fictional women in LICD* does affect real persons reading it.

(* Starting with its title...)

But that's why I say the setting is what determines this for me. I'm not familiar with Billy the Heretic or anything, so I can't talk to that.

But imagine if LICD handled thingsa a bit more realistically. Women were traumatized, Rayne passed around STDs, etc. etc.

Then I would have a problem with it.

But since the world the story takes place in doesn't have those consequences I don't see the problem.

Imagine reading a comic that takes place in an alternate reality where punching someone in the face is a form of currency. You pay for your goods by punching people square in the jaw. You wouldn't read a comic like that and say that the main character is a jerk for punching people all the time.

EDIT: The exemption to this would be if I thought the author was trying to convey some kind of personal opinion through his story. I don't think Sohmer is attempting to pass along the idea of sleeping with tons of women and abandoning them as OK. If I got that impression then I would understand having a problem with it.

[TheArsenal]

Its simply this: This.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWH9rTprWbQ)

I know its subjective but it feels so much like.....Ha humor as in

"And thats the JOKE!"


".....Ha ha? "

As a result it comes off sexist and rude because its sexist and rude without a punchline. Thats it. Ha ha?

[Trazoi]

EDIT: The exemption to this would be if I thought the author was trying to convey some kind of personal opinion through his story. I don't think Sohmer is attempting to pass along the idea of sleeping with tons of women and abandoning them as OK. If I got that impression then I would understand having a problem with it.
That's exactly the impression I get from the comic. The tone of the humour celebrates Rayne's actions rather than lampoons them. The message of the comic appears "wouldn't it be great if you could be like Rayne?" That's the problem.

It's at the point where I'm not sure if it was originally meant to be a parody of author inserts (Ryan Sohmer <-> Rayne Summers is waaay too blatant). But if that's the case it doesn't go far enough, and throwing in attempts to humanise Rayne torpedo this interpretation. Ironically the parody/hate comic "Smug I Could Do" did this better by ratcheting Fable's (alt.Rayne) selfish jackass behaviour beyond impossible so the comic was stand-alone funny*.

* It's not great stand-alone, but at least there are jokes. Often in LICD I can't see where the punchline is meant to be, unless it's meant to be "isn't Rayne awesome for being able to say that"

[MammonAzrael]

I read it because it's got a very reliable update schedule, and enough of the strips are decent enough to at least get a smile (and rarely a frown) that it's no cost to me. Additionally Ryan and Lars are very nice guys so that doesn't hurt.

As for Rayne...sure, he's a fantasy, but that is pretty much the premise of the entire comic. I don't feel like LICD is a comic where you should be looking for a meaning or underlying message.

[Nerd-o-rama]

How could a fictional character do anything demeaning to a real person? I think I'm misunderstanding you here. What it sounds like you're saying is:

1. In real life action 'X' is bad.
2. In the comic action 'X' isn't bad.
3. You don't care for action 'X' in the comic because it's not the same as it is in the real world.
4. You do this while admitting that it's escapist fantasy. Doesn't that mean that things don't have to behave the same way as they do in the real world?

Again, I think I must be misunderstanding you, so please clarify if I mis-stated something.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you make an escapist fantasy for yourself, and then specifically have your own personal avatar do terrible things to representations of real people or groups of people, that's both hurtful and a little pathetic.

Not all escapism is like this - violent escapist fantasy, for example, usually makes up monsters, or at least attempts to pigeonhole the bad guys into a group of acceptable targets. LICD, being about hedonism by proxy rather than violent or vengeful fantasy, just comes out and says that no one except Rayne (Ryan) counts as a person in this fantasy world that looks an awful lot like the real one. It sure as hell makes me uncomfortable.

[Typewriter]

The point I'm trying to make is that if you make an escapist fantasy for yourself, and then specifically have your own personal avatar do terrible things to representations of real people or groups of people, that's both hurtful and a little pathetic.

Not all escapism is like this - violent escapist fantasy, for example, usually makes up monsters, or at least attempts to pigeonhole the bad guys into a group of acceptable targets. LICD, being about hedonism by proxy rather than violent or vengeful fantasy, just comes out and says that no one except Rayne (Ryan) counts as a person in this fantasy world that looks an awful lot like the real one. It sure as hell makes me uncomfortable.

It sounds to me like you're kind of deciding things about the comic based off of your own experiences instead of what's being presented. Sure Rayne is somewhat based off of Sohmer(an idealized version of himself from 10 years ago I believe is what he stated) but that doesn't mean that everything that happens in the comic is indicative of who Sohmer is. The guy is married and has a kid. He also runs three web-comics, and hosts a bunch of others. Oh, and he runs a comic shop. That seems like a vastly different person than Rayne. Sure they have similar interests (Rayne is loosely based off of Sohmer after all) but who they seem like very different people.

If you don't like the comic that's fine, I won't try to press you or anything, but I have to say I still don't understand where you're coming from. It would be like saying I can't stand Bugs Bunny because the author seems to think that hunters should be shot in the face with their own rifle.

EDIT:

That's exactly the impression I get from the comic. The tone of the humour celebrates Rayne's actions rather than lampoons them. The message of the comic appears "wouldn't it be great if you could be like Rayne?" That's the problem.


It would be pretty great if I could be like Rayne. If I could do whatever I wanted and nothing bad ever came of it? Yeah, that sounds good. The world doesn't work like that though which is why I don't understand comparisons between the two. If you tried to act like Rayne you would hurt people. You would probably become emotionally dead over time. You'd start spreading around STDs.

But yeah, if I could get a job that pays a fortune for little to no work and sleep with whoever I wanted whenever I wanted, again with no consequences, that would be pretty sweet. Would it not be?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, I think (sport) hunters should be shot in the face with their own rifle, but that's neither here nor there.

I no longer read LICD, and I'm not going to get into a lengthy argument about something I don't read. All I can say is that what Sohmer presents of himself in his comic is a really ugly picture of a human being. Is he that bad in real life? Of course not, Rayne Summers can't exist outside of a fantasy. But if he writes a comic specifically to pretend he's that terrible of a person (and everyone loves him anyway), I feel justified in being creeped the hell out.

[Typewriter]

Well, I think (sport) hunters should be shot in the face with their own rifle, but that's neither here nor there.

I no longer read LICD, and I'm not going to get into a lengthy argument about something I don't read. All I can say is that what Sohmer presents of himself in his comic is a really ugly picture of a human being. Is he that bad in real life? Of course not, Rayne Summers can't exist outside of a fantasy. But if he writes a comic specifically to pretend he's that terrible of a person (and everyone loves him anyway), I feel justified in being creeped the hell out.

And again, I think you're reading too much into this. I don't think he's doing as much of author insert as you seem to believe. From what I've seen and read of LICD/about Sohmer they are not the same person beyond having some similar interests. Feel free to choose otherwise though.

[Trazoi]

Sure Rayne is somewhat based off of Sohmer(an idealized version of himself from 10 years ago I believe is what he stated) but that doesn't mean that everything that happens in the comic is indicative of who Sohmer is.
The thing is - it actually does. You identified the key there - Rayne is Sohmer's idealised version of himself. It's Sohmer who choose to write his insert in the way he does. When Rayne Summers appears to be Sohmer's fantasy version of himself, and Rayne is a horrible human being, it reflects badly on Sohmer for choosing to present himself like that.

Again, I could see the point if Rayne is meant to be taken as a shallow horrible person. But AFAIK the whole point of LICD is to glorify Rayne's actions.

And honestly I couldn't live in the LICD-verse because it only works because everyone other than Rayne acts like his own personal playthings rather than actual people with their own thoughts and desires. It sounds sweet on the surface but within a very short time it would hell from the loneliness.

[Typewriter]

The thing is - it actually does. You identified the key there - Rayne is Sohmer's idealised version of himself. It's Sohmer who choose to write his insert in the way he does. When Rayne Summers appears to be Sohmer's fantasy version of himself, and Rayne is a horrible human being, it reflects badly on Sohmer for choosing to present himself like that.

Again, I could see the point if Rayne is meant to be taken as a shallow horrible person. But AFAIK the whole point of LICD is to glorify Rayne's actions.

And honestly I couldn't live in the LICD-verse because it only works because everyone other than Rayne acts like his own personal playthings rather than actual people with their own thoughts and desires. It sounds sweet on the surface but within a very short time it would hell from the loneliness.

See, that's a conclusion I just can't come to. For the record, the exact quote was: "Rayne Summers is pretty much me 12 years ago in terms of wish fulfilment".

Who I am now and who I was 12 years ago are completely different people. If I started writing about myself 12 years go with ultimate wish fulfillment it would be about being a famous movie star whose always in the spotlight. If I was to write about myself now having ultimate wish fulfillment it would be about becoming a writer and doing well enough with little fame or fanfare. Of course copious amounts of sex would appear in both versions, but that's beyond the point.

Again, if you don't like the strip I won't try to convince you otherwise. I'm simply saying that the reasoning that I've heard so far sounds based more off of personal opinion about the writer than about the story that's presented, which I say would be like me saying I don't like Bugs Bunny because I think the writers are trying to say that they think all hunters should be shot with their own rifle.

EDIT: I also don't know where you're coming from with characters just being his playthings. His friends regularly make decisions he doesn't agree with, and his zany plans don't always succeed.

One more point I thought of as well: I think some of you haven't read a majority of the comic because there is an arc that was done (nearly 2 years ago I believe) in which Rayne sees that in his future he will be without a family if he continues on the path he's on. It isn't a thought that pleases him at first, but he then sees that because of those same decisions he's able to care for, and be around, those he really loves - his friends and family. That spurs him to continue his lifestyle even though it doesn't have the exact ending he wants as it means he gets to keep and care for them.

Rayne isn't quite as bad as some people are trying to paint him to be, and it makes me think they haven't actually read the comic.

[Trazoi]

Rayne isn't quite as bad as some people are trying to paint him to be, and it makes me think they haven't actually read the comic.
Well yeah, guilty as charged. I've only read chunks because my reaction to the comic is basically the video Arsenal posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWH9rTprWbQ) I can't go into in-depth plot analysis like I can with Dominic Deegan because I can't read LICD for extended periods of time. Frankly where the humour comes from and the way Rayne and the world is presented both disgusts and angers me, which is why I find it hard to exactly describe what it is about it that offends me. My reaction to the comic is so emotional I can't discuss it logically, because that would require going back and actually looking at the comic again which sets me off once more.

So yeah, I think I've written all I can about this webcomic. I honestly don't get why other people like reading Sohmer's fantasy insert; as a story it's not interesting because of all the author Sue, and as a comedy it isn't funny (thanks Arsenal). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWH9rTprWbQ)

[Typewriter]

Well yeah, guilty as charged. I've only read chunks because my reaction to the comic is basically the video Arsenal posted. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWH9rTprWbQ) I can't go into in-depth plot analysis like I can with Dominic Deegan because I can't read LICD for extended periods of time. Frankly where the humour comes from and the way Rayne and the world is presented both disgusts and angers me, which is why I find it hard to exactly describe what it is about it that offends me. My reaction to the comic is so emotional I can't discuss it logically, because that would require going back and actually looking at the comic again which sets me off once more.

So yeah, I think I've written all I can about this webcomic. I honestly don't get why other people like reading Sohmer's fantasy insert; as a story it's not interesting because of all the author Sue, and as a comedy it isn't funny (thanks Arsenal). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWH9rTprWbQ)

Eh, I find it funny and I have a lot of respect for Sohmer. After having actually read LICD, following Sohmers blog posts, other sites, and other projects I feel it's not an 'Author Sue'. There are huge differences between the author and the character.

Sorry the work of fiction upsets you so much though. It's never fun to stumble upon something that angers you like that :(

EDIT: That last part may have sounded sarcastic, but that wasn't the intention. Menagea3 is a work of fiction, and the character Zii really annoys me.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, right, Sohmer's blog posts. The actual reason I ragequit the comic, and the reason why the number one rule of webcomics for me is and always will be "never read the newsbox".

[Typewriter]

Oh, right, Sohmer's blog posts. The actual reason I ragequit the comic, and the reason why the number one rule of webcomics for me is and always will be "never read the newsbox".

You know I mentioned earlier that it sounded like you were basing your dislike of the comic more off of personal opinion about the author than anything in the actual comic. That last comment really kind of solidifies that. You haven't actually said anything that tells me why you don't like the strip other than you don't like the author and you don't like people like Rayne in real life (and therefore don't like him in comic form in a fictitious universe).

[Trazoi]

Eh, I find it funny and I have a lot of respect for Sohmer. After having actually read LICD, following Sohmers blog posts, other sites, and other projects I feel it's not an 'Author Sue'.
The main character is called "Rayne Summers" and is based on a younger Ryan Sohmer living his idealised charmed fantasy life. How is that not an Author Sue? :smallconfused:

I can respect Sohmer's business skills, I can grant him that. Although he never should have agreed to do the animated CAD series, much less sign on for Season 2. :smalltongue:

Sorry the work of fiction upsets you so much though. It's never fun to stumble upon something that angers you like that :(
The reason why I'm posting here is to try to understand why it upsets me so much. I've read plenty of terrible webcomics but something about LICD hits the perfect frequency to throw me into a frenzy. I think it's because I really hate smug author inserts - it's why I've moved away from all the early 00s style video game webcomics because they all have them in some form - and LICD is all about the smug author insert. That makes anything else hit home especially hard.

Edit: Actually no, now I think about it, while I hate smug author inserts they don't annoy me nearly as much in other webcomics unless they're saying something really stupid about real life issues. I think it has to be because I really don't get where the humour is meant to be coming from. It's just Rayne saying awful things. How is that a joke?

[Nerd-o-rama]

You know I mentioned earlier that it sounded like you were basing your dislike of the comic more off of personal opinion about the author than anything in the actual comic. That last comment really kind of solidifies that. You haven't actually said anything that tells me why you don't like the strip other than you don't like the author and you don't like people like Rayne in real life (and therefore don't like him in comic form in a fictitious universe).

Ryan Sohmer and Rayne Summers are the same person. One just doesn't have things like society and law and continuity to curb his impulses, which results in a comic I do not want to read.

[AgentofHellfire]

Ryan Sohmer and Rayne Summers are the same person. One just doesn't have things like society and law and continuity to curb his impulses, which results in a comic I do not want to read.

I really don't quite get how one can say that, especially because of what typewriter mentioned--Rayne was based off of him twelve years ago.

Also, what makes a story about a terrible person terrible writing?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also, what makes a story about a terrible person terrible writing?

Because that terrible person is supposedly perfect, or at least a symbol of charity and general good? I didn't read past the first few comics before deciding the main character was a sexist jerk who somehow managed to have friends, even though he doesn't care about his friends' feelings. I then stopped reading.

[TheLaughingMan]

Also, what makes a story about a terrible person terrible writing?

Why should I care about a terrible person's terrible power fantasy? There's little to no conflict or major setbacks, few sympathetic characters, shallow drama and comedy, and a universe that bends over backwards to accommodate its main character. Why shouldn't I just pass this story up for one of substance? Why should I care?

[Typewriter]

Ryan Sohmer and Rayne Summers are the same person. One just doesn't have things like society and law and continuity to curb his impulses, which results in a comic I do not want to read.

He loosely based the character off of himself, and not even a current self. If I wrote a story about an introverted highschooler named "Keyboard" who liked D&D and said that the character was based off myself 10 years ago it wouldn't mean that everything the character did was a represenation of me, current or old. Keyboard could go off and murder ducks at the pond, but that doesn't mean I ever killed ducks at a pond or that I want to kill ducks at a pond.

What you're attempting to say is that you've chosen one, relatively minor, aspect of the entire comic and sworn off the comic because of a bunch of assumptions you've made from that starting point. Again, feel free to ignore the comic if that's what you want to do but continually stating your conclusion ("They are the same") is not an argument, it's a statement with minimal backing. The characters are different in many different ways, look at Sohmers marriage for a prime example. Look at how he runs several different webcomics and does a pretty good job, where as I wouldn't trust Rayne to guard a bag of marshmallows. Sohmer has continuous commentary on things like the comic industry, but Rayne never cares enough about anything to pay any attention to anything but women. If you'd like more examples I would recommend actually reading the comic.

As for the second part of your statement - that is a great reason to not read the comic. You don't like the fact that Rayne lives in a world without consequence. I don't care because in the world he lives in there is nothing wrong with his actions. If you don't like that it's fine, but you can't try to make a comparison between the characters actions and the real world because, again, they are not the same, nor do I think they are expected to be taken as the same.

[Typewriter]

Why should I care about a terrible person's terrible power fantasy? There's little to no conflict or major setbacks, few sympathetic characters, shallow drama and comedy, and a universe that bends over backwards to accommodate its main character. Why shouldn't I just pass this story up for one of substance? Why should I care?

This is another post which causes me to think the poster hasn't actually read the comic. If your opinion is that Sohmer is horrible, then ignore him. If that is based off of Raynes actions then I'll disagree with your reasoning but you are still free to do so. If you don't like the comedy you are entitled to that opinion. I think it's hilarious, and that is also opinion. Drama I think is 'meh' but not bad. The characters I think are all great. That is, again, opinion. The only thing in your post that I heavily disagree with, and what makes me think you haven't read it, is your statement that the universe bends backwards to accomodate Rayne. I don't really see where you're coming from here. The main character does pretty well, but not everything he does succeeds. He isn't flawless, and he doesn't always get his way.

As for why you should care - if you don't then move on. It's as simple as that. I enjoy the story. I think it has more substance than about 75% of the webcomics I read, and I enjoy it very much.

You sitting in a thread yelling "It's bad because it's bad" isn't making an argument, it's not you trying to change anyone's mind. It's simply yelling an opinion at people who disagree with you. I'm happy to counter with more depth, but I don't really know what to say as it sounds like you haven't read the comic.

Authors power fantasy - I have yet to see anyone say anything substantial that should actually make me think that Sohmer is a horrible person, or that Rayne is a perfect copy of him.

Conflict/Major Setbacks - It's a character story, not an epic fantasy. What are you looking for? Rayne has problems with his friends from time to time, he constantly has to patch things up after making mistakes. He discovered a sister and a a niece he never knew existed and had to decide whether he wanted to be involved in her life. There's the story arc I mentioned before where he was faced with his future and had to choose whether or not he would pursue his own wife/family or just be there for his current friends/family as he got older. How about the fact that all the people in the strip are moving on with their lives, often doing things that Rayne doesn't agree with 100%. One character is dating his arch-nemesis, another had a child. I think another one is getting married.

Sympathetic characters - What do you mean by this exactly? The storyline where Rayne saw his future I found to be quite touching actually.The storyline where 'John was never there' was also very sad to me because it showed how friends can start to drift apart. I don't really know what else to say other than "Have you actually read the comics, or do you just say this based off of early strips, or is it just random"

And one last point -A couple years ago the comics received a letter from the author in which he notified them that they would age from that point on. Their lives would actually proceed. Since this point is when people began getting married and having children and the like. It's when it went from a gag-a-day to a truly great story in my opinion. When it first occurred Rayne had a bout of self-pity where he tried to find other comics he could live in, but he eventually decided that living his life was the way to go. Not a lot has been done in this time (aside from the aforementioned marriages/babies) but that's kind of the point... it's only been a couple years. Both for the readers and the characters. They are advancing through lives. They are changing and evolving. If it's not fast enough for you then please feel free to move on, but if you want to continue bad-mouthing it please add something to your post other than opinions with no backing statements.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I meant to copy this and put it at the bottom of my previous post, but I forgot.

Another Edit: Also wanted to mention that since the character of Ashley was introduced Rayne has seemed to be chasing after random tail less and less, and has even preferred to spend time with his niece over these random women. It may not seem like a lot to you, but I find it to be well written and sweet.

If anyone responds to this post can you tell me how much of the series you've actually read?

Grumble, grumble, found the arc I keep mentioning: A Christmas Carol (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20061204)

[Trazoi]

@Typewriter: Had a long reply here, realised I'm still letting LICD get to me. :smallannoyed:

Seriously though Typewriter, did you read that arc in early December where Rayne sets it as his mission to befriend the "hot lesbian" working in his company - the one who he instantly nicknames the moment he meets her? How can anyone stand someone as horrible as Rayne?

[TheLaughingMan]

The only thing in your post that I heavily disagree with, and what makes me think you haven't read it, is your statement that the universe bends backwards to accomodate Rayne. I don't really see where you're coming from here. The main character does pretty well, but not everything he does succeeds. He isn't flawless, and he doesn't always get his way.

I meant more in the long term. He doesn't suffer from more than a few major setbacks that fall outside of Rule of Funny.


As for why you should care - if you don't then move on. It's as simple as that. I enjoy the story. I think it has more substance than about 75% of the webcomics I read, and I enjoy it very much.

Fair enough, but for future reference "Don't like don't read" is an argument that will get you much eye-rolling from non-fans, and should be used sparingly.


You sitting in a thread yelling "It's bad because it's bad" isn't making an argument, it's not you trying to change anyone's mind. It's simply yelling an opinion at people who disagree with you. I'm happy to counter with more depth, but I don't really know what to say as it sounds like you haven't read the comic.

I'm admittedly not a studious reader of LICD, but I was just trying to relate what I know firsthand and what I know secondhand.

However, I find that we've reached something of an impasse. You're suggesting that my opinion be well-studied while at the same time suggesting that if I don't like it I shouldn't read it. Ow.

Regardless, I congratulate you for coming back with counter-points. Hooray for levelheadedness! :smallsmile:


Authors power fantasy - I have yet to see anyone say anything substantial that should actually make me think that Sohmer is a horrible person, or that Rayne is a perfect copy of him.

You miss the point. It's not that he's a perfect copy of the author, but rather that he is a very embellished copy. I can't say that Sohmer's a horrible person as I haven't read any newsposts, but if Rayne is to in any way represent his ideal, then we have a few problems.


Conflict/Major Setbacks - It's a character story, not an epic fantasy. What are you looking for? Rayne has problems with his friends from time to time, he constantly has to patch things up after making mistakes. He discovered a sister and a a niece he never knew existed and had to decide whether he wanted to be involved in her life. There's the story arc I mentioned before where he was faced with his future and had to choose whether or not he would pursue his own wife/family or just be there for his current friends/family as he got older. How about the fact that all the people in the strip are moving on with their lives, often doing things that Rayne doesn't agree with 100%. One character is dating his arch-nemesis, another had a child. I think another one is getting married.

Point partially conceded. Keep in mind, though, that these are just a few choice moments in a long-running comic.


Sympathetic characters - What do you mean by this exactly? The storyline where Rayne saw his future I found to be quite touching actually.The storyline where 'John was never there' was also very sad to me because it showed how friends can start to drift apart. I don't really know what else to say other than "Have you actually read the comics, or do you just say this based off of early strips, or is it just random"

From what I have read, Rayne's negative/smug/jerkface qualities hold a much larger presence in-comic than any of his redeeming ones. It's hard to want to keep reading about his exploits when I'm only shown flashes of wholesome traits.


And one last point -A couple years ago the comics received a letter from the author in which he notified them that they would age from that point on. Their lives would actually proceed. Since this point is when people began getting married and having children and the like. It's when it went from a gag-a-day to a truly great story in my opinion. When it first occurred Rayne had a bout of self-pity where he tried to find other comics he could live in, but he eventually decided that living his life was the way to go. Not a lot has been done in this time (aside from the aforementioned marriages/babies) but that's kind of the point... it's only been a couple years. Both for the readers and the characters. They are advancing through lives. They are changing and evolving. If it's not fast enough for you then please feel free to move on, but if you want to continue bad-mouthing it please add something to your post other than opinions with no backing statements.

Fair enough. I'm just saying, why should I come to this comic when many others have done its job and better? Comics like Homestuck and Gunnerkrigg Court outdo it as a dramedy, Dr. McNinja, Nedroid, and Axe Cop outdo it as a comedy, and Brawl in The Family outdoes it as a silly slice-of-life comic. My question to you is: What is the draw of LICD?


Another Edit: Also wanted to mention that since the character of Ashley was introduced Rayne has seemed to be chasing after random tail less and less, and has even preferred to spend time with his niece over these random women. It may not seem like a lot to you, but I find it to be well written and sweet.

A step in the right direction, but again, the comic's got a long way to go to convince me that's it's worth wasting my time on. In the meantime, however, I'll applaud this development as far as I know of it.


If anyone responds to this post can you tell me how much of the series you've actually read?

I haven't read much, which is why I've tried to avoid making any non-reactionary posts, as, y'know, I don't know all the details. It ain't my cup of tea, so I didn't read onwards.

[Anteros]

Rayne is who Sohmer wishes he could be. It's clear, and anyone who has ever followed the comic and read the news posts or talked to the man should see it.

That in and of itself doesn't ruin the comic though. Personally I got frustrated with the Mary Sueness of the comic to the point where I eventually stopped reading. If you enjoy it, then by all means, continue reading it. No one is going to try to stop you.

[TheArsenal]

My bug of course is whats the joke?

Lets compare this to Cartman from Southpark. Now, I don't like Cartman, but south park has MORE to draw you in other then "Hey, Cartman is an ass LOLOLOLOOOLOLOLOL"

But even then it does it better then LICD. Cartman is ACKNOWLEDGED to be a horrible being, and part of the joke comes from the adult obliviousness of it all, the sheer dispicability of the character, the lack of karma and how sometimes HE GETS HIS PAIN. And it feels SOOOO good when he does (And how utterly pathetic the character is- He is SUCH a looser).

But LICD? Thats it. Misogyny, with sexism as the punchline......um....so what?

Thats it! All it is is "This guy is a horrible person". With a world that shifts to his whims. And he is a BLATANT fill in for the character. And since he is, all I can do is feel the author inject his crap into what his world changes into accepting.

WHATS THE JOKE? Thats IT? Is there anything to the joke other than "WOW this guy is a monster!"

[VariaVespasa]

{Scrubbed}

[TheArsenal]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Were all adults here and we all watch south park. Its not that its that. Its that without a punchline as a result it doesn't comes off dumb and insulting:

The main character is just annoying. Hes overtly smug, gets anything he wants and thats it. Thats the joke. Ha-ha.:smallmad:

[VariaVespasa]

{Scrubbed}

[Typewriter]

@Typewriter: Had a long reply here, realised I'm still letting LICD get to me. :smallannoyed:

Seriously though Typewriter, did you read that arc in early December where Rayne sets it as his mission to befriend the "hot lesbian" working in his company - the one who he instantly nicknames the moment he meets her? How can anyone stand someone as horrible as Rayne?

You're calling him horrible based off of your trying to apply your real life feelings and opinions on a fictional character. I don't feel he's horrible, because in his world his actions ended just fine and no one was offended. You're being offended on behalf of a fictional character.



Fair enough, but for future reference "Don't like don't read" is an argument that will get you much eye-rolling from non-fans, and should be used sparingly.

Umm, OK? I don't really know what to say. Several people have come into this thread and spouted "It's bad because it's bad" and made several random claims without trying to back it up. If you just don't like it then don't read it, if you want to have a conversation about it then actually talk about the content of the comic. 90% of what I've been responding to are conclusions with no supporting arguments. Or people making parallels to real life saying I should hate the character because in real life I would hate the character. In real life the character couldn't really exist so it's a moot point. Plus, for all intensive purposes, Rayne is actually a pretty good guy. He cares about his friends and family, and he never intentionally hurts anyone.



I'm admittedly not a studious reader of LICD, but I was just trying to relate what I know firsthand and what I know secondhand.

However, I find that we've reached something of an impasse. You're suggesting that my opinion be well-studied while at the same time suggesting that if I don't like it I shouldn't read it. Ow.

What I was trying to say is you can't really argue against the comic without knowing more about it. As I've said a lot of the things people are saying are conclusions with no supporting arguments. The reason I disagree with those conclusions is because I've read the comic. Obviously in order to be able to actually discuss the merits of specific aspects of the comic you'd have to be more familiar. If you're not going to become more familiar then why come into a thread about the subject at all? Just to state conclusions and hope no one argues back?



You miss the point. It's not that he's a perfect copy of the author, but rather that he is a very embellished copy. I can't say that Sohmer's a horrible person as I haven't read any newsposts, but if Rayne is to in any way represent his ideal, then we have a few problems.


My interpretation is that he was designing the character and based the concept off of himself from several years ago. He probably used to be a bit of a skirt-chaser, and was a lot more irresponsible. And that's the end of it. He is a family man who runs a comic store, and several lucrative webcomics. He's clearly not the same person, Sohmer became who he wanted to be. Rayne is someone else completely.

I don't understand why that initial premise means that everything the character does has to be indicative of who Sohmer is. Sure, I'm certain he finds a lot of his own jokes and ideals funny but I doubt he would ever want to go around calling for lesbians over an intercom because he knows that would upset someone. He's not a bad person, so he doesn't do things like that.



Fair enough. I'm just saying, why should I come to this comic when many others have done its job and better? Comics like Homestuck and Gunnerkrigg Court outdo it as a dramedy, Dr. McNinja, Nedroid, and Axe Cop outdo it as a comedy, and Brawl in The Family outdoes it as a silly slice-of-life comic. My question to you is: What is the draw of LICD?

The draw for me is all the things you don't seem to see. I find it funny, I like the characters, and I enjoy the arcs. I also like the art a lot, and the fact that it updates daily a lot too.

I've only tried reading a couple of the comics you mentioned, and I got mind-numbingly bored within about 100 strips. The difference is I didn't then go into those threads and blast the comics without actually having read them because I know everything I didn't like is just based off of my own opinion.



I haven't read much, which is why I've tried to avoid making any non-reactionary posts, as, y'know, I don't know all the details. It ain't my cup of tea, so I didn't read onwards.

Fair enough, and I don't know how much of my post should have been directed at you. Several people have been making several statements that i disagree with, and all the posts lump together in my head a bit.

EDIT:
On my drive to work I gave some more thought on what appeals to me about the comic. Let's go back to the recent story arc, the one about the lesbian.

As it was beginning there was a couple things I thought of. The first was that, in real life, he would be fired immediately. And possibly sued. The second is that what I expected to happen was that his assistant was the lesbian, and she was going to tell him she was bothered by his attitude. He would apologize, she would be angry for a while, and then somehow they would make up. I thought that was fine, but I have to say I'm tired of stories like that. It was clear that Rayne just wanted to meet this person he heard worked in his company, there was no malice, just curiosity. A comical misunderstanding in which he learns a lesson would have been boring and, in my opinion, trite.

Instead we didn't bother with any unnecessary conflict that would have ultimately resulted in us ending at the same point we began in. He met her, she had fun meeting him, his curiosity was sated. Nobody was offended, and this story was minor, self contained, and humorous.

No, this storyline wasn't one of my favorites or anything. I thought it was fairly average compared to most, in fact. But would it have been improved by adding a dozen strips of misunderstandings and conflict? I don't think so.

So, in short, I think that what a lot of the appeal is to me about LICD is that because the setting is set up the way it is, we are able to ignore a lot of standard BS that is prevalent in other stories. Most of the time it's just an amusing scenario with an amusing conclusion. The longer arcs that come between are just a bonus to me.

[Trazoi]

You're calling him horrible based off of your trying to apply your real life feelings and opinions on a fictional character. I don't feel he's horrible, because in his world his actions ended just fine and no one was offended. You're being offended on behalf of a fictional character.
I'm calling him horrible because he spent the entire arc harassing his female staff and being hugely derogatory towards the lesbian character (BTW does she have a name other than Rayne's awful nickname, because I'm not calling her that). Yes, she was "okay" with it in-comic, because Rayne is a huge Author Sue who everyone loves because he's Rayne. That's why we call him an Author Sue. If the lesbian character acted like an actual human being rather than Rayne's plaything there is no way she would have been okay with the way Rayne treated her. And the same goes to all the rest of his female staff when he went on that lesbian hunt. That's what we mean by "unrealistic supporting characters"; actual people wouldn't put up with Rayne's antics for more than a minute.

The big question I had about that little arc is the one Arsenal keeps asking which is, why was that funny? All it was was Rayne being hugely offensive. It didn't go anywhere story or humour-wise because everyone lets him off because he's Rayne. I don't get what the joke is meant to be. Is it only because Rayne is non-PC unlike us squares who treat people like human beings? Because on it's own, without leading to a pay-off, and repeated day after day... that's really not funny.

Anyway I don't think this is going to go anywhere because the same arguments are going back and forth like ping-pong. I was merely curious as to why this webcomic was so popular when it is what it is.

[Typewriter]

I'm calling him horrible because he spent the entire arc harassing his female staff and being hugely derogatory towards the lesbian character (BTW does she have a name other than Rayne's awful nickname, because I'm not calling her that). Yes, she was "okay" with it in-comic, because Rayne is a huge Author Sue who everyone loves because he's Rayne. That's why we call him an Author Sue. If the lesbian character acted like an actual human being rather than Rayne's plaything there is no way she would have been okay with the way Rayne treated her. And the same goes to all the rest of his female staff when he went on that lesbian hunt. That's what we mean by "unrealistic supporting characters"; actual people wouldn't put up with Rayne's antics for more than a minute.

The big question I had about that little arc is the one Arsenal keeps asking which is, why was that funny? All it was was Rayne being hugely offensive. It didn't go anywhere story or humour-wise because everyone lets him off because he's Rayne. I don't get what the joke is meant to be. Is it only because Rayne is non-PC unlike us squares who treat people like human beings? Because on it's own, without leading to a pay-off, and repeated day after day... that's really not funny.

Anyway I don't think this is going to go anywhere because the same arguments are going back and forth like ping-pong. I was merely curious as to why this webcomic was so popular when it is what it is.

I find it funny because it strikes me as a parody of political correctedness. The fact of the matter is that what Rayne did would only have been bad if someone had been offended. If nobody is offended there is nothing wrong with his actions.

He made a joke in giving her the nickname 'Munchy' and she smirked. If she had been offended then Rayne probably would have apologized. But why would she have been offended? It was a joke. Rayne clearly wasn't trying to be mean.

For some reason you feel offended so you think that all the characters should act 'more realistically' (see also: like you) and since it doesn't go the way you think it should you're throwing a fit about it.

You don't like it, so don't read it. If you want to know why other people enjoy it, it's simple: People who enjoy it don't find it offensive and disagree with your accusations of it being offensive and a huge author Sue.

Sorry.

EDIT: Clarified sentences of nonsense.

ANOTHER EDIT: Just re-read the lesbian arc again, and I have to say I really don't understand the problem When the two characters meet they have fine going back and forth and get along just fine. In fact, this (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111213).

What's wrong with that?

Sure, his search was bit wrong. I would never put a piece of carpet on a hook and call it lesbian bait in real life, but as a joke? It's funny! Why should I be offended by a joke in a webcomic? The only reason I can think of is if I thought Sohmer was saying that's actually a good idea, or that it would be socially acceptable, and since I don't think that's his message...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Frankly, I don't like LICD, and you do, and nothing either of us says is going to make any impact on that that actually reading several years' worth of comic strips did not. I know better than to try to argue taste with someone I don't know, and wouldn't dream of doing so on the internet.

I was just trying to explain myself, since you asked.

[TheLaughingMan]

I find it funny because it strikes me as a parody of political correctedness. The fact of the matter is that what Rayne did would only have been bad if someone had been offended. If nobody is offended there is nothing wrong with his actions.

...What.

How-

Why-

What?!!



...I'm...I'm gonna have to stop posting in this thread before I say anything I'll regret.

[TheArsenal]

Im with the laughing man here. That logic train leads to MADNES!

[Typewriter]

Fair enough, but I don't know what I said that's that ridiculous. If I wanted to know something about someone I wish I could just ask instead of having to dance around the PC police hoping I don't offend anyone.

Words only have power if people give them power. Rayne said things to people that those people didn't have a problem with. Why would I find that offensive in the context of the story. It's people who are trying to apply this situation to real world and being offended on the behalf of characters that say there's a problem, but they can't explain their problem with it without referencing real life situations.

In real life I think it would be nice if you could just walk up to someone and ask what was on your mind. You can't because the whole concept of being PC has, in my opinion, gone completely insane.

Rayne is a mockery of that. In the world of LICD if Rayne wants to know something about someone he simply asks them up front and they answer. Why should his friend be offended by him seeking her out?

In short:
Rayne: Are you totes gay with the sex and whatnot? Here is some carpet.
Character response: Yeah, I'm gay.
Me: Haha, it's funny because she responded to what he meant instead of getting angry over a stupid joke like would have happened in real life.

[TheArsenal]

Rayne: Are you totes gay with the sex and whatnot? Here is some carpet.

Character response: Yeah, I'm gay.

Ryane: WHAAAAAT:smallbiggrin:- Let me go pester you some more because your gay

Character Responce: Sure.

Me: WHATS SO FUNNY?

Lets change this up a bit (Im jewish so its "OK"):

Rayne: Hey you jew, you like having sex through a sheet?

Ordinary Guy: Oh you :smallbiggrin:, I enjoy your vaguely racist terms

Me: WHATS SO FUNNY (I ACTUALY would get offended)

This ISN'T natural. The guy would get pissed (Not flip out) and constant pestering shows that Ryane is a homophobic idiot. WHY ELSE IS HE PESTERING THEM! WHY! To show that....what. Why else would he do that?

edit: Now I rarely do this but. I (As in me) think you are wrong. If you WRITE characters not to react to show its "OK" your not writing natural characters:


By your logic this would be completely OK:

Ryan :Hey you ****** piece of ****, hows the getto going, I think you would be much more productive in society if you where a slave. :smallsmile:

Guy: Heh, your funny. Pester me some more.:smallbiggrin:


PS: If this post is somehow breaking the rules I will take it down.

[T-O-E]

The thing is that Rayne/Ryan aren't trying to show that people get offended too easily. They're actively trying to offend people.

[Helanna]

Fair enough, but I don't know what I said that's that ridiculous. If I wanted to know something about someone I wish I could just ask instead of having to dance around the PC police hoping I don't offend anyone.

Words only have power if people give them power. Rayne said things to people that those people didn't have a problem with. Why would I find that offensive in the context of the story. It's people who are trying to apply this situation to real world and being offended on the behalf of characters that say there's a problem, but they can't explain their problem with it without referencing real life situations.

In real life I think it would be nice if you could just walk up to someone and ask what was on your mind. You can't because the whole concept of being PC has, in my opinion, gone completely insane.

Rayne is a mockery of that. In the world of LICD if Rayne wants to know something about someone he simply asks them up front and they answer. Why should his friend be offended by him seeking her out?

In short:
Rayne: Are you totes gay with the sex and whatnot? Here is some carpet.
Character response: Yeah, I'm gay.
Me: Haha, it's funny because she responded to what he meant instead of getting angry over a stupid joke like would have happened in real life.

Okay, I'm gonna jump in because this is one of my pet peeves. Whenever I've ever heard someone complain about how political correctness is insane nowadays, it translates roughly to "people complain when I am incredibly rude to them", so I'd like some clarification.

You sound like you don't think people should ever get offended, or at least not by jokes. I'm sure that's not your intent, and I agree that people tend to get offended over stupid things, but on the other hand I've heard a lot of people say rude, offensive things, even jokingly, and then, if someone gets upset, say "Oh, you're just hyper-PC, aren't you?" Can you give examples of what you want to ask people that you apparently can't because of being politically correct?

Also, *why* did Rayne seek out the lesbian at his work? I don't read LICD - I didn't like what little I've seen of it - and I feel like some context would be important here. If he's just curious about whether she was gay, okay, fine, but if he was like "Wow, guys, a real live gay person, right here, that's amazing, she's really, actually gay!", well, then, yeah, that'd be a little offensive, because he's treating her like being gay is her defining attribute, like some sideshow novelty instead of like a person.

And finally, about how someone can be offended 'on behalf' of a fictional character: You can say that this is all a fantasy world where nobody's feelings ever get hurt, but if it's touching on real-world topics, then it involves the real world. With the example above, even if the gay character wasn't offended, that's only because the author wrote her that way. Real people might get offended because the comic itself was presenting gay people as some weird novelty, whose only interesting characteristic is that they're gay. Basically, the comic wouldn't be treating gay people as people. Treating people as objects is basically the cause of most legitimate offense, in my opinion.

[Typewriter]

Rayne: Are you totes gay with the sex and whatnot? Here is some carpet.

Character response: Yeah, I'm gay.

Ryane: WHAAAAAT:smallbiggrin:- Let me go pester you some more because your gay

Character Responce: Sure.

Me: WHATS SO FUNNY?

For me, it's the fact that she didn't get offended over what was a silly joke. It strikes me as a parody on the concept of being PC. I think that PC is overdone, so this amuses me.

There is also the fact that I find the comment, as a joke, "Here is some carpet", to be hilarious. It would only be a problem if he said that to someone that didn't think it was funny. If someone said to me "You're fat, want a snickers" I wouldn't be offended because I am fat and I would kind of like a Snickers. If I saw someone say that to a coworker that was sensitive about their weight I would tell them that it's not cool.



Lets change this up a bit (Im jewish so its "OK"):

Rayne: Hey you jew, you like having sex through a sheet?

Ordinary Guy: Oh you :smallbiggrin:, I enjoy your vaguely racist terms

Me: WHATS SO FUNNY

I'm not really going to refer to this in depth or anything because it gets close to breaking forum rules, but I can respond to what you're saying in essence. I would like to request a different subject than religion for a follow-up point if you decide to respond with a different scenario as we are still bound by the forum rules.

In the scenario you wrote I have to assume that Rayne was either asking a legitimate question (he heard it was true and is looking for verification) or he's making a joke. Either way the person he asked doesn't have a problem with it, so where's the offense?

Truth be told I think the idea of 'racist terms' is ridiculous. Words are words, and either the speaker or the listener has to give them offensive meaning. If the speaker says it with the intent of being racist, then it's racist. If the listener decides the word means something more than the speaker meant then he's ignoring what the speaker said in favor of his own opinion.


As for "WHATS SO FUNNY" I've already explained several times what I find funny. I guess you disagree? Either way you repeatedly asking the same question in all caps isn't going to somehow convince me that I should have the same opinions as you. If you don't find it funny, then move on. I wouldn't read something if I didn't think it was funny. If you're trying to convince me that it's not funny then you're actually going to have to convince me of that instead of repeatedly saying "WHATS SO FUNNY".

If your entire point is that because your offended everyone should be offended... well that's not going to happen.


The thing is that Rayne/Ryan aren't trying to show that people get offended too easily. They're actively trying to offend people.

So you think when Rayne says something there is malice behind his words? He must be disappointed then when nobody ever gets angry at him.

Suffice to say I disagree with you, but if you'd like to post more than a sentence I'll try to respond.

[Draconi Redfir]

I am a person who legitimately likes this comic, yet i avoid entering this thread because it is full of people who legitimately do not.


How is this at all logical?

[Typewriter]

Okay, I'm gonna jump in because this is one of my pet peeves. Whenever I've ever heard someone complain about how political correctness is insane nowadays, it translates roughly to "people complain when I am incredibly rude to them", so I'd like some clarification.

You sound like you don't think people should ever get offended, or at least not by jokes. I'm sure that's not your intent, and I agree that people tend to get offended over stupid things, but on the other hand I've heard a lot of people say rude, offensive things, even jokingly, and then, if someone gets upset, say "Oh, you're just hyper-PC, aren't you?" Can you give examples of what you want to ask people that you apparently can't because of being politically correct?

I'm breaking this post up just so I can respond to a couple different things. My problem with PC is this:

People care more about words than intent nowadays. If I say a word you don't like, but you know I'm asking an innocent question why get upset about the word?

On the other side of this, if I'm trying to insult you then why does it matter what word I use? I'm being rude to you, and I'd expect you to be offended.

I won't give specific examples in the thread because I think this conversation is already borderline, but if you'd like I'll send you a PM where we could discuss this in more depth.



Also, *why* did Rayne seek out the lesbian at his work? I don't read LICD - I didn't like what little I've seen of it - and I feel like some context would be important here. If he's just curious about whether she was gay, okay, fine, but if he was like "Wow, guys, a real live gay person, right here, that's amazing, she's really, actually gay!", well, then, yeah, that'd be a little offensive, because he's treating her like being gay is her defining attribute, like some sideshow novelty instead of like a person.

What he kept saying is that he heard there was a hot lesbian working there so he wanted to meet her. He made a joke about hoping they would bond and he would be able to watch her have lesbian sex, but I think that was mostly a joke, and not his true intent.

When they actually met he was fairly nice and asked a bunch of questions. He didn't try to impose himself on her or anything like that.

My interpretation, and again this is all opinion, was that he had never met a lesbian and he was curious about them.



And finally, about how someone can be offended 'on behalf' of a fictional character: You can say that this is all a fantasy world where nobody's feelings ever get hurt, but if it's touching on real-world topics, then it involves the real world. With the example above, even if the gay character wasn't offended, that's only because the author wrote her that way. Real people might get offended because the comic itself was presenting gay people as some weird novelty, whose only interesting characteristic is that they're gay. Basically, the comic wouldn't be treating gay people as people. Treating people as objects is basically the cause of most legitimate offense, in my opinion.

I posted this link before, and I will do so again (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111213).

Yes, this is all written by someone so you can take it for what it's worth, but I see no reason to believe any of this was written from a viewpoint of malice. I dont' see it as objectifying. That specific comic I linked answers your last post better than anything I can write. If you disagree with it, or think it's horrible then we disagree.

[T-O-E]

So you think when Rayne says something there is malice behind his words? He must be disappointed then when nobody ever gets angry at him.

Rayne is designed to be offensive. A lot of the humour (which I personally don't find funny) comes from the comic's perceived edginess and taboo humour.


He must be disappointed then when nobody ever gets angry at him.

But the other characters are solely there to reinforce the ego of the main character, except when they put him down once every few months in the writer's desperate bid to convince people that Rayne isn't perfect.

I'm having trouble expressing my thoughts about this topic here but you gave me an idea. An (intentional) Mary Sue who's become so tired of never being challenged that he tries to become as offensive as possible so people will stop praising him. They never do and he is slowly driven insane.

[TheArsenal]

For me, it's the fact that she didn't get offended over what was a silly joke. It strikes me as a parody on the concept of being PC. I think that PC is overdone, so this amuses me.

If somebody came up to me and called me jewy, and ONLY called me jewy, or even sheety, chewy, or porker, I WOULD GET PISSED. Maybe YOU never had people define you. Its NOT funny to me. Showing a comic of a jewish guy just rolling with it would PISS ME OFF.

WHY would Ryan in the context of the comic call her that (Not influenced by outside sources). WHY. Why else other to offend her would he do that.

You say you wouldn't be offended. Fine, but he did it for no other reason other than to offend her (WHAT is the reason he did that?). Thats HOMOPHOBIC.

The REASON Im so pissed is BECAUSE the character didn't react. Because she DIDN"T go: "Well your a pig". SOMETHING! ANYTHING!

I can make ANYBODY in my comic react however I wan't. I can have my insert torture children and make thier parents watch (This may be funny from a gruesome perspective but were not talking about that) and yell "YOU SO FUNNY, your the greatest guy evah!".

Just because I have characters I control, not react to a character Im a self insert into to prove a point that doesn't make sense outside of my own world doesn't make it OK.


Truth be told I think the idea of 'racist terms' is ridiculous. Words are words, and either the speaker or the listener has to give them offensive meaning. If the speaker says it with the intent of being racist, then it's racist. If the listener decides the word means something more than the speaker meant then he's ignoring what the speaker said in favor of his own opinion.

Ugh, fine whatever. Your view of the world is so alien to me I cannot argue with you at all.

You point to a comic that says "Hes not PC".

Well...that makes no sense. But fine. Whatever. I hate LICD with a BURNING passion of a THOUSAND suns.

Im getting off this thread before i get banned! GAGGHAHGAKUJHMAHGGDFAMHGAGHCVGJAGVACGAGJVNG:smallf urious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:: smallfurious:

[Typewriter]

Rayne is designed to be offensive. A lot of the humour (which I personally don't find funny) comes from the comic's perceived edginess and taboo humour.

My response to your post is "Kind of". Opinion incoming: The comic does utilize 'edgy' and 'taboo' humor, but not in an attempt to offend people. It's pointing out the ridiculousness of getting upset over these things that are 'edgy' and 'taboo'. It's, "Look at Rayne do something edgy, but nobody gets offended and everything winds up OK". People respond to him based off of his intent instead of specific stupid actions, which is what I think we should do on a day-to-day basis.

So yes, I agree that the comic uses 'edgy' and 'taboo' humor, but I don't think it does it to try and offend anyone. It does it to point out that you can say/do these 'edgy' and 'taboo' things and it's no big deal.



But the other characters are solely there to reinforce the ego of the main character, except when they put him down once every few months in the writer's desperate bid to convince people that Rayne isn't perfect.


And I don't really know what to say to this other than I disagree. The side characters do their own thing, and seem like fully developed characters to me.

[Typewriter]

If somebody came up to me and called me jewy, and ONLY called me jewy, or even sheety, chewy, or porker, I WOULD GET PISSED. Maybe YOU never had people define you. Its NOT funny to me. Showing a comic of a jewish guy just rolling with it would PISS ME OFF.

WHY would Ryan in the context of the comic call her that (Not influenced by outside sources). WHY. Why else other to offend her would he do that.

You say you wouldn't be offended. Fine, but he did it for no other reason other than to offend her (WHAT is the reason he did that?). Thats HOMOPHOBIC.

The REASON Im so pissed is BECAUSE the character didn't react. Because she DIDN"T go: "Well your a pig". SOMETHING! ANYTHING!

I can make ANYBODY in my comic react however I wan't. I can have my insert torture children and make thier parents watch (This may be funny from a gruesome perspective but were not talking about that) and yell "YOU SO FUNNY, your the greatest guy evah!".

Just because I have characters I control, not react to a character Im a self insert into to prove a point that doesn't make sense outside of my own world doesn't make it OK.



Ugh, fine whatever. Your view of the world is so alien to me I cannot argue with you at all.

You point to a comic that says "Hes not PC".

Well...that makes no sense. But fine. Whatever. I hate LICD with a BURNING passion of a THOUSAND suns.

Im getting off this thread before i get banned! GAGGHAHGAKUJHMAHGGDFAMHGAGHCVGJAGVACGAGJVNG:smallf urious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:: smallfurious:

The only thing I'm going to say in response to this is that I do have things that offend me, and I have been judged based off of certain aspects of myself. The difference between you and me is that you think everyone should have the same opinion as you.

[Helanna]

First off, just a message, don't mind Arsenal's language too much. He's always like that.


I'm breaking this post up just so I can respond to a couple different things. My problem with PC is this:

People care more about words than intent nowadays. If I say a word you don't like, but you know I'm asking an innocent question why get upset about the word?

On the other side of this, if I'm trying to insult you then why does it matter what word I use? I'm being rude to you, and I'd expect you to be offended.

I won't give specific examples in the thread because I think this conversation is already borderline, but if you'd like I'll send you a PM where we could discuss this in more depth.

I see what you're saying here, but on the other hand, acting like a word is no big deal when 99% of society defines it as a pejorative is just plain rude. Even words that aren't necessarily pejorative can be rude just because of society. Like your earlier example, calling people fat. I'm pretty overweight, but if someone came up, called me fat, and offered me candy, I'd be offended because it would show that they don't care if I would be upset. Now if it was someone I knew very well, that would be different, or if the person was being really polite and had a legitimate reason for asking. But for a stranger to do it randomly is inappropriate and rude by all standards of society. By completely ignoring those standards, you're showing that you don't care if I'm offended or if I'm upset, which is rude.


What he kept saying is that he heard there was a hot lesbian working there so he wanted to meet her. He made a joke about hoping they would bond and he would be able to watch her have lesbian sex, but I think that was mostly a joke, and not his true intent.

When they actually met he was fairly nice and asked a bunch of questions. He didn't try to impose himself on her or anything like that.

My interpretation, and again this is all opinion, was that he had never met a lesbian and he was curious about them.

I posted this link before, and I will do so again (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111213).


See, even that seems fairly offensive. She's a lesbian. What exactly do you need to be so curious about? She dates other women. Ta-da, the end. The link to me says "Lesbians are sexy, so I sought you out". You know, like a sex object, which is an issue women still deal with all the time. And the whole "You're just not PC, are you?" comment . . . well, most people don't condone hunting someone down and questioning them about their sex life, but not because doing that would be "politically incorrect". Weird and kind of creepy, maybe. And again, while certainly some people wouldn't mind, that's the kind of thing that would turn me off someone, because . . . seriously, who does that?


Yes, this is all written by someone so you can take it for what it's worth, but I see no reason to believe any of this was written from a viewpoint of malice. I dont' see it as objectifying. That specific comic I linked answers your last post better than anything I can write. If you disagree with it, or think it's horrible then we disagree.

I also don't think it's from a viewpoint of malice, I think it just shows that the author doesn't really understand what he's talking about. Again - hunting down a lesbian just because she's a lesbian and then questioning her about it isn't just "not PC". I just get the sense that the author doesn't even understand why anyone would ever possibly find that offensive, and it gives off the vibe that anyone who does is just oversensitive - basically de-legitimizing their feelings.

Just my viewpoint on things. I can totally see where you're coming from, though.

[Typewriter]

I see what you're saying here, but on the other hand, acting like a word is no big deal when 99% of society defines it as a pejorative is just plain rude. Even words that aren't necessarily pejorative can be rude just because of society. Like your earlier example, calling people fat. I'm pretty overweight, but if someone came up, called me fat, and offered me candy, I'd be offended because it would show that they don't care if I would be upset. Now if it was someone I knew very well, that would be different, or if the person was being really polite and had a legitimate reason for asking. But for a stranger to do it randomly is inappropriate and rude by all standards of society. By completely ignoring those standards, you're showing that you don't care if I'm offended or if I'm upset, which is rude.

I do follow the rules of society and only use the proper words when I'm out. I think one of the most important rules of comedy however is to push boundaries. Since I happen to be personally against PC for the most part I enjoy comedy that pushes that boundary.



See, even that seems fairly offensive. She's a lesbian. What exactly do you need to be so curious about? She dates other women. Ta-da, the end. The link to me says "Lesbians are sexy, so I sought you out". You know, like a sex object, which is an issue women still deal with all the time. And the whole "You're just not PC, are you?" comment . . . well, most people don't condone hunting someone down and questioning them about their sex life, but not because doing that would be "politically incorrect". Weird and kind of creepy, maybe. And again, while certainly some people wouldn't mind, that's the kind of thing that would turn me off someone, because . . . seriously, who does that?

In real life I also wouldn't condone someone looking for a lesbian to question. For the sake of a joke in a webcomic though? He's not homophobic, he's not completely horrible. He was just curious, and decided to answer that curiosity.



I also don't think it's from a viewpoint of malice, I think it just shows that the author doesn't really understand what he's talking about. Again - hunting down a lesbian just because she's a lesbian and then questioning her about it isn't just "not PC". I just get the sense that the author doesn't even understand why anyone would ever possibly find that offensive, and it gives off the vibe that anyone who does is just oversensitive - basically de-legitimizing their feelings.

I think the characters actions are a bit inappropriate. I can agree with that. I think it made a good joke, and I feel that far from a good reason for calling him, let alone the author, horrible.



Just my viewpoint on things. I can totally see where you're coming from, though.

I appreciate your words, thanks for your input :)

[VariaVespasa]

{Scrubbed}

[TheArsenal]

Ugh, look man its not you. Its the comic, being within a one link proximity to it makes me go into a berserker rage.

I get where you are coming from. I don't like overt political correctness as well, I recently made a little movie on the subject (Im against not showing blood and death on children's shows) . I also came to understand that the reason we have "Un PC" words is for them to be ahem "Un PC". They have assigned meanings to them, just like objects do. I have a fork and a spoon. I wont call one the other and Vice versa and call everybody else who don't "Squares". Its just common politeness. We might as well degenerate to making grunting sounds then.

Now let me get this strait. Even beforehand this whole shlemozle. Ryan is a ************************************************fi lled******created by the darkest pits of hell itself.


He is a misogynistic ****. He treats women like garbage and gets away with it because the author said so.

If this guy was a really nice awesome dude I would go "Huh, why is he talking to her like that, maybe there is a reason that hes being so crude" (Mostly because awesome people don't talk like that). For example Brentalfloss uses the word "Gay" in his songs allot but I know he never means them because he uses them like a Rhyme or PART OF a joke. Saying "Gay" for him isn't a joke on into itself. Hes also talented.

But Ryan isn't so I can probably gather that in his twisted stupid mind he immediately thought (Hot- I wanna see her bone) because its like expecting me to breath in the next hour unless I was dead.

I had a gay bunk councilor (Or however its called) once. We made jokes about
How they are so commonly misrepresented in films and stuff. But I called him by his name. I did not call him Penisy. Would YOU call him penisy?

Now you say "Well she didn't get offended". Thats because the character is a mary sue insert and the author makes sure that the world revolves around the jackass.

You find it funny because she didn't get offended. I bring you back to my point about the spoons.

Now I hope you got my opinion and sorry for freaking out.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Mary Sue insert so people would bring it up in a conversation about how great his insert is so he doesn't come off THAT bad.

I wouldn't want to be friends with a sexist, self centered and smug a-hole like him anyway. Even IF he saved my life.

Ryan reminds me of Jhonny bravo except in a bizzaro universe. And not NEARLY as funny.

[Traab]

I agree, he is a big author sue, but what makes the comic entertaining to me is seeing how far he can go, seeing how badly this could turn out, and then seeing what happens to make it work. The whole horrifying lesbian arc? Ive met gay guys who can go for HOURS making comments like this back and forth with me and nobody gets offended (well, neither of us gets offended) because we both know neither one means anything malicious by it. The entire goal of these chats are to see who can come up with something so outrageous that the other guy just has to laugh. So its not an impossible thing to have happen on a case by case basis. When looked at overall its clearly screwed up, as noone gets that lucky with the people he meets all the time, I know I havent been.

Thats the big draw for me though, he is so insanely over the top that he would have been lynched as a teenager, but there isnt any malice in him, (Well, some of the early stuff with kicking the women out of his bed was pretty bad,) and most people seem to realize this in world.

[Typewriter]

@TheArsenal
To a certain degree I get where you're coming from, but the difference in opinion begins almost immediately. You have a vastly different opinion on the character and his intentions than I do.

Yelling 'Mary Sue' every time something happens you disagree with makes me think you don't actually have anything to say. People react in a multitude of different ways to different situations. The author chose the one that portrayed the story he wanted to tell. Isn't that what every author does? Do you think that famous authors get to a decision point in their story then roll dice to see what happens next? No, something happens that advances the story the way the author chooses. You've chosen this one particular aspect to harp on because you don't like it. You're letting your emotional reaction to a story you disagre with determine your opinion, but the only thing you can do is repeatedly say "Mary Sue".

I find it funny, not because she didn't get offended, but because in most scenarios it would be expected for her to get offended. In this instance she doesn't and everything is OK. Tell me why her getting upset would have improved upon the scenario.

Rayne is generally a good person, but he is a sexual deviant. That's simply who the character is. He loves his friends, he always tries to help people. Sure he has some flaws. You are focusing only on the flaws, which you seem to have amplified based off of your experiences, and you claim that anything good the character does is a Mary Sue.

[TheArsenal]

Rayne is generally a good person, but he is a sexual deviant. That's simply who the character is. He loves his friends, he always tries to help people. Sure he has some flaws. You are focusing only on the flaws, which you seem to have amplified based off of your experiences, and you claim that anything good the character does is a Mary Sue.

Because he insults any genre he doesn't understand, insults one of my favorite authors (For NOT selling out, if he didn't mean it why did he even NEED to write that. Whats the joke of that) and is a GIGANTIC MISOGYNISTIC PRICK.

Thats not a little thing thats a very big horrible thing. He SHOULDN'T have that many friends. Its because the WORLD is on his side is why. He thinks that 50% of the population are sex objects.

The scene you showed isn't the exception. Its THE RULE.

If this about some looser who couldn't get any because of his horrible social skills suddenly finding a single lady that loved him no matter what (And was secretly bribed by his father) that funny.

But the flaws aren't played as flaws but as jokes. THATS why I want the next woman he insults to slap him, karate chop him to the ground and leave disgusted (And the next 5,000,000 after that).
That would be a flaw that would make people repulsed by him. But as he stands the story is about:

Wacky Mister Misogyst going around being smug (and being brought down rarely), boning women, being an ass and the having the world on his fingertips.


Thats why I hate it.

[Typewriter]

Because he insults any genre he doesn't understand, insults one of my favorite authors (For NOT selling out, if he didn't mean it why did he even NEED to write that. Whats the joke of that) and is a GIGANTIC MISOGYNISTIC PRICK.

Wanting to sleep with women does not make you misogynistic. I've never seen anything that makes me hate women, or that he thinks less of them in anyway. This is another instance of you simply making stuff up because you don't like the character.



Thats not a little thing thats a very big horrible thing. He SHOULDN'T have that many friends. Its because the WORLD is on his side is why. He thinks that 50% of the population are sex objects.

You say that the only reason people like him in the comic is because the world sides with him, yet the comic has a huge fanbase, many of which are women. I'm fairly certain he would be popular in real life based off of his confidence and drive to get what he wants. This is another instance of you simply making stuff up because you don't like the character.



The scene you showed isn't the exception. Its THE RULE.


Which scene, I've pointed out several. I can point out a few where he's a jerk, a few where he shows caring for people, a few where he sleeps with women then ignores them. The character has many facets.



If this about some looser who couldn't get any because of his horrible social skills suddenly finding a single lady that loved him no matter what (And was secretly bribed by his father) that funny.

Actually that sounds kind of boring to me.



But the flaws aren't played as flaws but as jokes. THATS why I want the next woman he insults to slap him, karate chop him to the ground and leave disgusted (And the next 5,000,000 after that).
That would be a flaw that would make people repulsed by him. But as he stands the story is about:

Wacky Mister Misogyst going around being smug (and being brought down rarely), boning women, being an ass and the having the world on his fingertips.


Thats why I hate it.

So you hate the character, and because you hate him you repeatedly try to pretend he never does anything good, claim that any good he does is just a front, and you sat that your hatred for the character is so strong that you want bad things to happen to him. Sounds to me like you shouldn't read the comic. I don't know what else to say. I don't agree with anything you've said.

[TheArsenal]

Wanting to sleep with women does not make you misogynistic.

Do I need to get out the strip of him with the cattle prod? If THAT doesn't convince you of that then I give up and its utterly impossible for us to ever come to any form of mutual agreement.


I'm fairly certain he would be popular in real life

No. I lack the force of will to seek out EVERY single strip of him being an complete *BEEEEEEEEEEP*.


Which scene, I've pointed out several. I can point out a few where he's a jerk, a few where he shows caring for people, a few where he sleeps with women then ignores them. The character has many facets.

Your missing the point what an author stand in is (Which is the term I should have used instead of may sue- sorry). If You DONT agree with me on him being an author stand in, then we having nothing to talk about here.

[Trazoi]

Okay, I'm gonna jump in because this is one of my pet peeves. Whenever I've ever heard someone complain about how political correctness is insane nowadays, it translates roughly to "people complain when I am incredibly rude to them"
Oh man, thanks Helanna, your posts have finally made me twig as to what it is about LICD that annoys me so much. It's so freakin' obvious I can't believe I couldn't squarely put my finger on it - it's even the song on the demo LICD cartoon trailer, the "Wouldn't it be great if no one ever got offended" attitude of the entire comic. Apparently that's the universal joke of the comic, but it means the whole premise is to glorify the bully and lampoon the victim. It's the constant barrage of that message that flips me over the edge.

[Draconi Redfir]

sooo guys... call me crazy buuut...

if you don’t like the comic?... don't read it?:smallconfused:

Even crazier idea: If anything about the comic makes you angry, don't enter this thread!:smallbiggrin:

I mean i hate penny arcade and you don’t see me charging into the PA thread ranting about how i hate it and everything right? At most i would go in once or twice to simply say "its not my cup of tea" and then leave.

Seriously, this is the exact tactic i use whenever i see a thread topic about something i don't like (i.e: The teir system, i hate it. i hate it a lot. my solution? i don't go to threads about the teir system!) it sound crazy, but it works!

And seriously, it gets really irritating when i see a perfectly good thread for a comic that i enjoy, and it is full of nothing but haters who just bring up arguments and ruin my experience.

[TheArsenal]

Well, you got me there Draconi, but if Us Criticizing the comic ruins your experience then maybe you should reevaluate the comic itself?

[T-O-E]

sooo guys... call me crazy buuut...

if you don’t like the comic?... don't read it?:smallconfused:

Even crazier idea: If anything about the comic makes you angry, don't enter this thread!:smallbiggrin:

I mean i hate penny arcade and you don’t see me charging into the PA thread ranting about how i hate it and everything right? At most i would go in once or twice to simply say "its not my cup of tea" and then leave.

Seriously, this is the exact tactic i use whenever i see a thread topic about something i don't like (i.e: The teir system, i hate it. i hate it a lot. my solution? i don't go to threads about the teir system!) it sound crazy, but it works!

And seriously, it gets really irritating when i see a perfectly good thread for a comic that i enjoy, and it is full of nothing but haters who just bring up arguments and ruin my experience.

People like to analyse things. That's basically it. You don't have to read something you enjoy for it to be worthwhile, as long as you get some kind of emotional reaction to it.

If arguments can ruin your enjoyment of something, was it worth enjoying in the first place? Was it ever any good if it can't stand up to scrutiny? I know it's just a stupid simple strip but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Also this thread would have died in five posts if it was just about praise.

[Draconi Redfir]

No i don’t mean it like that, but to put it simply, it's like trying to have a discussion about star teak with a few other guys who like star trek, all the while there are ten other people in the room yelling at the top of their lungs about the inconsistencies between shows (such as the klingon forehead ridges) Sure you could try to ignore them, but it is REALLY difficult due to the fact that they are yelling at the top of their lungs and don’t even stop to breathe.


Imagine you are talking to your best friend about your favourite thing ever. Now imagine one hundred car alarms going off and never deactivating right next to your ear the entire time. It's pretty much that.

[Typewriter]

Do I need to get out the strip of him with the cattle prod? If THAT doesn't convince you of that then I give up and its utterly impossible for us to ever come to any form of mutual agreement.


Off the top of my head I don't remember the strip you're talking about, but that being said I sincerely doubt a single strip out of the several thousand (especially when half of them are gag-a-days) would convince me that Rayne hates women.



No. I lack the force of will to seek out EVERY single strip of him being an complete *BEEEEEEEEEEP*.

Rayne has been a total jerk several times. Especially in the early comics. Why do you think that means everyone in the world would hate him? You are, again, saying "I hate him so everyone would".



Your missing the point what an author stand in is (Which is the term I should have used instead of may sue- sorry). If You DONT agree with me on him being an author stand in, then we having nothing to talk about here.

I don't think the character is a giant author stand-in, as I've said multiple times. The initial premise of the character was clearly based off of a younger version of Sohmer, but I can't see any connection between the character and who Sohmer is today beyond some similar interests. If we have nothing to talk about, please feel free to move on. I'm not trying to convince you to enjoy, or even read, the comic - I'm simply responding to the random declarations you keep making about the character and the author without supporting them.


Oh man, thanks Helanna, your posts have finally made me twig as to what it is about LICD that annoys me so much. It's so freakin' obvious I can't believe I couldn't squarely put my finger on it - it's even the song on the demo LICD cartoon trailer, the "Wouldn't it be great if no one ever got offended" attitude of the entire comic. Apparently that's the universal joke of the comic, but it means the whole premise is to glorify the bully and lampoon the victim. It's the constant barrage of that message that flips me over the edge.

I don't understand, how can there be a victim if nobody is offended? I'm not talking about Rayne standing around being blatantly mean to people and them going "lols whatever", I'm talking about Rayne asking questions that truly harm no one and nobody flipping out over them needlessly.

[TheArsenal]

Im moving on here. Im butting heads with you. Were going nowhere.

[Seerow]

Well, you got me there Draconi, but if Us Criticizing the comic ruins your experience then maybe you should reevaluate the comic itself?


But criticizing the comic doesn't ruin the experience. Criticism is perfectly valid.

What you and others are doing in this thread goes far beyond criticism. It's outright hostile and inflammatory in a way that prevents any other sort of discourse from taking place. This isn't even like the usually good natured snarking over in the DD thread, it's a very strong case of "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE".

If the comic is that terrible, it can't have that many fans, and the thread will die on its own in a few weeks. If it's a good comic and your tastes don't align with most other people, then you derailing the thread with your vitriol is nothing short of harassment. In either situation, you're better off leaving the thread alone and leaving the comic to be discussed by people who actually read the comic, rather than coming in pronouncing judgement on them and the comic they're discussing simply because you don't like it.

[T-O-E]

But without the dissent this thread would have no posts. It's not the type of comic that can sustain positive discussions (few gag a days can.)

Typewriter, I don't think we're reading the same comic. We have completely different interpretations of Rayne.

The Mary Sue thing keeps popping up because, to me, it's such a massive and blatant part of the comic that it simply cannot be ignored. It permeates every panel.

[Typewriter]

But criticizing the comic doesn't ruin the experience. Criticism is perfectly valid.

What you and others are doing in this thread goes far beyond criticism. It's outright hostile and inflammatory in a way that prevents any other sort of discourse from taking place. This isn't even like the usually good natured snarking over in the DD thread, it's a very strong case of "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE".

If the comic is that terrible, it can't have that many fans, and the thread will die on its own in a few weeks. If it's a good comic and your tastes don't align with most other people, then you derailing the thread with your vitriol is nothing short of harassment. In either situation, you're better off leaving the thread alone and leaving the comic to be discussed by people who actually read the comic, rather than coming in pronouncing judgement on them and the comic they're discussing simply because you don't like it.

One of the biggest problems I had when I was trying to argue with people was that half of them admitted to not even having read the comic either.

That's what gets me about it, people are saying they hate the character, haven't read the comic, and then trying to claim that everyone should agree with them.


But without the dissent this thread would have no posts. It's not the type of comic that can sustain positive discussions (few gag a days can.)

Typewriter, I don't think we're reading the same comic. We have completely different interpretations of Rayne.

The Mary Sue thing keeps popping up because, to me, it's such a massive and blatant part of the comic that it simply cannot be ignored. It permeates every panel.

I posted this on page 2 of this thread:


He loosely based the character off of himself, and not even a current self. If I wrote a story about an introverted highschooler named "Keyboard" who liked D&D and said that the character was based off myself 10 years ago it wouldn't mean that everything the character did was a represenation of me, current or old. Keyboard could go off and murder ducks at the pond, but that doesn't mean I ever killed ducks at a pond or that I want to kill ducks at a pond.

What you're attempting to say is that you've chosen one, relatively minor, aspect of the entire comic and sworn off the comic because of a bunch of assumptions you've made from that starting point. Again, feel free to ignore the comic if that's what you want to do but continually stating your conclusion ("They are the same") is not an argument, it's a statement with minimal backing. The characters are different in many different ways, look at Sohmers marriage for a prime example. Look at how he runs several different webcomics and does a pretty good job, where as I wouldn't trust Rayne to guard a bag of marshmallows. Sohmer has continuous commentary on things like the comic industry, but Rayne never cares enough about anything to pay any attention to anything but women. If you'd like more examples I would recommend actually reading the comic.


Rayne is a character written by Sohmer. This is a fact. If Sohmer decides to write a story about Rayne chasing down a lesbian, the ideas and dialogue that permeate the stories are going to come from the author. That is a fact.

What that doesn't mean is that Raynes actions and ideals are exactly what Sohmer would do. Do you think Sohmer would get onto a loud-speaker and call out, "Here lesbian"? Do you think that he thinks that's a great idea and he wants to do it?

If you have something to say then please, please, please say it. As it stands now around a half dozen people have claimed it's 'so obvious' to them though, and yet they can't seem to actually come up with an argument. As I've said a dozen times throughout this thread simply throwing your conclusion out there doesn't make an argument. You need some backing for it be an argument.

EDIT: Merging posts

[TheArsenal]

Heh, LICD has a self defense mechanism. If you want to criticize it you need to READ IT. Its INCRUCIATINGLY painful to do so. So its not worth it most of the time.

[Draconi Redfir]

if it's painful to read... Don't read it?:smallconfused:

But if you dont, maybe you could be a little polite to those who do?

[TheArsenal]

if it's painful to read... Don't read it?:smallconfused:

But if you dont, maybe you could be a little polite to those who do?

I agree. Im sorry if I made your reading experience worse Draconi. But I can criticize the comic on what I saw and felt. IT HURTS.

[Trazoi]

I don't understand, how can there be a victim if nobody is offended? I'm not talking about Rayne standing around being blatantly mean to people and them going "lols whatever", I'm talking about Rayne asking questions that truly harm no one and nobody flipping out over them needlessly.
Because humour is often about selling a message about what the humorist sees about society.

LICD is an idealised version of the real world based around the maxim "Wouldn't it be great if no one ever got offended". In the lesbian example, Rayne is acting like a workplace bully, especially so because he's in a position of power as the lesbian's boss' boss. If this was the real world, the lesbian character would be offended. But because this is the ideal world of LICD, she isn't. The message is "wouldn't it be great if people acted like the lesbian character here and not be offended." The impression the comic gives, if the lesbian character had been offended like she would have been in real life, it's her fault, not Rayne's.

And that's why I find LICD so poisonous. The message it keeps blaring is that if someone is offensive it's totally not their fault, it's the target's problem for being offended. It's not the bully that should change, it's the victim who should "get a sense of humour and learn to laugh at themselves."

[Typewriter]

Im getting off this thread before i get banned! GAGGHAHGAKUJHMAHGGDFAMHGAGHCVGJAGVACGAGJVNG:smallf urious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:: smallfurious:



Your missing the point what an author stand in is (Which is the term I should have used instead of may sue- sorry). If You DONT agree with me on him being an author stand in, then we having nothing to talk about here.


Im moving on here. Im butting heads with you. Were going nowhere.

Really?


Heh, LICD has a self defense mechanism. If you want to criticize it you need to READ IT. Its INCRUCIATINGLY painful to do so. So its not worth it most of the time.


I agree. Im sorry if I made your reading experience worse Draconi. But I can criticize the comic on what I saw and felt. IT HURTS.

You're more than welcome to criticize the comic, but you've been sitting around making completely inaccurate statements this entire thread. It would be like if I read the first 50 strips of GiantITP then claimed it was lame because they never left the dungeon.

Almost everything you've said has been you yelling your opinion (and I say yelling because you put random words into all caps), and making statements that aren't true. The real response to half the things you say is to read the comic.

But if you want to sit around and blast the first couple hundred strips feel free. I still enjoy those ones, but I don't really see them as good enough to bother defending. The comic was really low quality until about 2005-2006 in my opinion.

[Draconi Redfir]

probably going to regret saying this: But it's hard to bully someone if the name you are calling them is actually a compliment.

[Typewriter]

Because humour is often about selling a message about what the humorist sees about society.

LICD is an idealised version of the real world based around the maxim "Wouldn't it be great if no one ever got offended". In the lesbian example, Rayne is acting like a workplace bully, especially so because he's in a position of power as the lesbian's boss' boss. If this was the real world, the lesbian character would be offended. But because this is the ideal world of LICD, she isn't. The message is "wouldn't it be great if people acted like the lesbian character here and not be offended." The impression the comic gives, if the lesbian character had been offended like she would have been in real life, it's her fault, not Rayne's.

And that's why I find LICD so poisonous. The message it keeps blaring is that if someone is offensive it's totally not their fault, it's the target's problem for being offended. It's not the bully that should change, it's the victim who should "get a sense of humour and learn to laugh at themselves."

Bully? Really?

Rayne isn't bullying anyone. That's the point you keep missing. If she had said to Rayne, "That is a horrible nickname, do not call me that" and he had continued to do so that would have been bullying.

I've asked this several times throughout this thread: What good would her being offended have accomplished? What good would it have done the character, or the story as a whole?

The character wasn't offended so she didn't need to stand up for herself.The story would have been derailed into Rayne making some kind of over-the-top gesture to apologize, and it would have been unnecessarily dramatic.

You're being offended for the character, so you feel that someone needs to jump in and save her.

We are not talking about Rayne walking up to her and poking her, going "Haha, lesbian" over and over with her just smiling stupidly. We're talking about him making a joke that she does not misinterpret as horrible, instead taking it for what it is - a joke.

EDIT: At one of my previous workplaces one of my bosses used to think it was funny to shake up my sodas while saying things like, "I can't save you from the calories, but I can delay how long until you get them" while laughing maniacally. In response I would vandalize his desk from time to time, sewing his chair to the cubicle or covering everything he owned in sticky notes. It was pretty funny, and nobody was ever bothered by it.

One day another boss saw him do this, and happened to already be upset at my first boss. Suddenly he decided "That's not right" and stormed over to my first boss to try and stand up for me, despite my protests. He yelled at the guy, and that was the end of the fun. No more office pranks, no more fat jokes.

That's what I see you doing now. You see a situation in which you feel there is a person being victimized, so instead of taking the story for what it's worth you're attempting to go around policing others.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bully? Really?

Rayne isn't bullying anyone. That's the point you keep missing. If she had said to Rayne, "That is a horrible nickname, do not call me that" and he had continued to do so that would have been bullying.

But isn't the point of this world the fact that there are no bad consequences? If there are no bad consequences, then she wouldn't be insulted.

[Trazoi]

Bully? Really?

Rayne isn't bullying anyone. That's the point you keep missing.
Oh for crying out loud, Rayne starts the arc by calling out over the PA system for the hot lesbian to reveal herself, builds a lesbian detector out of a fishing pole and carpet square, grills all his female staff on their sexual preferences, and the first thing out of his mouth to the lesbian character is a slur. That's clear workplace harassment, and that's before the lesbian character says anything about how acceptable she finds his behaviour. (And what about the rest of the staff?)

Rayne only gets away with it because everyone is under an Author Sue reality distortion field. That doesn't excuse his actions.


I've asked this several times throughout this thread: What good would her being offended have accomplished? What good would it have done the character, or the story as a whole?
The whole problem is that the comic doesn't see Rayne's actions as being wrong. It glorifies them. It says "wouldn't it be great if you could behave like Rayne? If only all those humourless people wouldn't get offended." That's the problem. In the comic it's not Rayne's fault, Rayne does nothing wrong, if you find something wrong with Rayne then the problem is with you. It's glorifying being offensive and pushing all the blame onto the offended.

If the lesbian character had been offended, it would a) show that the comic recognised Rayne's behaviour was wrong, b) make her into an actual character that acts like a person, and c) set up for a proper story arc where Rayne does something to redeem himself and prove he's a good person at heart. But since the comic does none of that, we're left with the impression that Rayne's behaviour is perfectly okay and the lesbian character was merely there for Rayne to throw derogatory terms at.


You're being offended for the character, so you feel that someone needs to jump in and save her.
Yeah, I know. I am offended, it's not the comic's fault, the entire problem is with me.

See the pattern?

[Typewriter]

But isn't the point of this world the fact that there are no bad consequences? If there are no bad consequences, then she wouldn't be insulted.

If Sohmer had written the story as Rayne poking her repeatedly with her smiling stupidly I would call it horrible. If he had written it as her getting offended then it would have violated that idea*, but the story could still be conceptually saved. See also: Rayne attempting to fix things, not just laughing at her pain and misery.

*While I do enjoy the concept that people don't get upset over stupid things in the LICD universe, it's not entirely true. In the arc I linked to earlier, the LICD Christmas Carol, you could have seen someone who was upset about having received a one-night stand from Rayne. Rayne feels bad, but he also consoles himself by realizing he never lied to her about his intentions. Interpret that however you like, but it does show that people in the LICD universe can be upset about things Rayne does.

Rayne has said and done things to upset people, and when he does he generally tries to make things better. What I don't think I've ever seen is someone get offended or upset by a well intentioned joke.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright, I started reading so you would take me more seriously, and I direct you to this (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20030228) comic, where Rayne somehow managed to, on short notice, find a bunch of attractive women that were all willing to have a one-night stand with him, presumably without being prostitutes.

[Gez]

I mean i hate penny arcade and you don’t see me charging into the PA thread ranting about how i hate it and everything right?
What PA thread? If there's a PA thread in this forum, feel free to give me a link because I'm not seeing it on the topic list.


Anyway, if there were one, I'd welcome you to list there all the reasons why you dislike it so much. Is it the plague of "two gamers on a couch" comics it indirectly spawned? The horde of brainless fans? The fact that Gabe is an antisocial jackass whenever he's off his meds? The fruit f%#!er? The less-than-stellar handling of the dickwolves controversy?


I posted this link before, and I will do so again (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111213).

Yes, this is all written by someone so you can take it for what it's worth, but I see no reason to believe any of this was written from a viewpoint of malice. I dont' see it as objectifying. That specific comic I linked answers your last post better than anything I can write. If you disagree with it, or think it's horrible then we disagree.

Rayne admits he sought her out because she was a "hot lesbian" because he finds her interesting and arousing. He's so interested in her as a person that he never asks her name (heh (http://www.drunkduck.com/Smug_I_Could_Do/5121576/)) -- "Munchy (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111208)" will do. Then he asks her questions about how lesbians have sex. If you don't see that as objectifying, I don't know what to say. But a lot of people would find that as extremely objectifying. Because she is reduced to her sexuality, and only interesting as a sex fantasy.

I mean, yeah, we see them playing a bunch of games and the banter is two-ways, with her asking Rayne some questions in return, and being written as intrigued by his personality. (I don't think most real-world lesbians would find his personality intriguing.) But does it matter? The games they play are irrelevant, it's just to show them doing something. I guess it's better than talking heads. It conveys the idea that a lot of time passes and that we only see a few excerpts of their conversation. Good application of "show don't tell" here I suppose. The flipside is that it means that what we do see of their conversation is the important parts -- the Cliff's notes version -- and it boils down to "I'd like to watch two women getting it on".


I've asked this several times throughout this thread: What good would her being offended have accomplished? What good would it have done the character, or the story as a whole?

Given the way the comic works? The entire premise is that Rayne is a jackass to everyone, and they love him for that. (The most extreme negative reaction they can have towards him is a facepalm, in the great tradition of the straight man vs. the wacky, zany main character.

And that's pretty much the problem. The premise is the entire problem. It's about the apology of jackass behavior.

If it were something where the world punishes Rayne for his behavior, it'd be better accepted. It would be kinda like early Sinfest -- Slick wishes he were Rayne, but he's always turned down, hard.

Alternatively, it could also be easier to accept if it was about a jackass growing as a character and developing some empathy .

Both these options would result in a comic completely different from LICD.



You're being offended for the character, so you feel that someone needs to jump in and save her.

That's kinda like the old "no, it's alright, my gay/Jewish/black friends laughed at that joke" defense. Except here the gay Jewish black friend is fictional in this case.

[Typewriter]

Oh for crying out loud, Rayne starts the arc by calling out over the PA system for the hot lesbian to reveal herself, builds a lesbian detector out of a fishing pole and carpet square, grills all his female staff on their sexual preferences, and the first thing out of his mouth to the lesbian character is a slur. That's clear workplace harassment, and that's before the lesbian character says anything about how acceptable she finds his behaviour. (And what about the rest of the staff?)

Rayne only gets away with it because everyone is under an Author Sue reality distortion field. That doesn't excuse his actions.

Ah yes, the 'Author Sue reality distortion field' again. Also known as "It's a web-comic I'm trying to interpret as real life".

I've said several times that his behavior is inappropriate, but that doesn't make him a horrible person and it doesn't make him a bully. You are taking jokes in the comic and trying to apply them to real life.



The whole problem is that the comic doesn't see Rayne's actions as being wrong. It glorifies them. It says "wouldn't it be great if you could behave like Rayne? If only all those humourless people wouldn't get offended." That's the problem. In the comic it's not Rayne's fault, Rayne does nothing wrong, if you find something wrong with Rayne then the problem is with you. It's glorifying being offensive and pushing all the blame onto the offended.


You keep using the word offensive. I think we need to discuss our differing opinions on this real quick. Here's what I think you mean by it:

Offensive: Any word/activity/action that anyone anywhere is bothered by.

Here's what I mean by it: Using any words/activity/action to try and hurt someone.

I don't think, in this particular story, that Rayne did anything wrong because nobody in the story was bothered by it. You're saying that because someone somewhere is bothered by it that it's wrong.

LICD doesn't say "Do whatever you want and screw people who disagree". It says "Imagine how great it would be if you could do whatever you wanted and nobody would have a problem with it".

Wouldn't that be great? If I could make jokes without having to be worried about offending people, unless I was actually trying to be rude to them? But I can't because I do live in a world where people get upset.



If the lesbian character had been offended, it would a) show that the comic recognised Rayne's behaviour was wrong, b) make her into an actual character that acts like a person, and c) set up for a proper story arc where Rayne does something to redeem himself and prove he's a good person at heart. But since the comic does none of that, we're left with the impression that Rayne's behaviour is perfectly okay and the lesbian character was merely there for Rayne to throw derogatory terms at.


A. It would have made his behavior wrong by having someone be offended by it. If nobody is offended, what is the harm in his jokes?
B. You really think every lesbian in the world would behave in the same exact way? And you say the comic is being ridiculous?
C. Redeemed him for what, exactly? Something you decided he needs to be redeemed for but can't find anything in the comic that actually supports that?



Yeah, I know. I am offended, it's not the comic's fault, the entire problem is with me.

See the pattern?

How dare someone speak their mind without fear of being yelled at for making jokes! And in a fictitious universe where it's continually been shown to be OK at that. How could they do this?

Yes, in this particular scenario I do think the problem is you. You're offended by the fact that a cartoon told a joke that didn't offend other cartoons.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ah yes, the 'Author Sue reality distortion field' again. Also known as "It's a web-comic I'm trying to interpret as real life".

When people read a comic about human beings, they expect them to be like human beings in real life. Especially in a comic like LICD, where they're in modern day America, which wouldn't have been invented if people had acted different, or at the least would be greatly changed. Why do you think "Mary Sue" is most commonly used in speeches about why things are bad?

[Traab]

Oh man, thanks Helanna, your posts have finally made me twig as to what it is about LICD that annoys me so much. It's so freakin' obvious I can't believe I couldn't squarely put my finger on it - it's even the song on the demo LICD cartoon trailer, the "Wouldn't it be great if no one ever got offended" attitude of the entire comic. Apparently that's the universal joke of the comic, but it means the whole premise is to glorify the bully and lampoon the victim. It's the constant barrage of that message that flips me over the edge.

But... he isnt being a bully, he isnt being mean, or nasty, or trying to put down people based off of any general characteristic. At least, not since they stopped doing the whole, "Thats number 500!" set of jokes where he chases women out of his bed post sex in some horrible fashion. Its been years since he has acted in any way that I can point at and say, "Clearly he was being malicious" Usually he is joking his ass off. Hell, the closest I can think of is his meeting with his bosses boyfriend, and meh, I can actually understand being hostile towards him to an extent. Doesnt make it right, but I can understand it a bit. Half the time he is being offensive its like he doesnt even realize it. Remember when he dated that asian woman and showed up at her parents house in some sort of bleach/naruto/dbz type costume or something? He honestly thought that was how he was supposed to be dressed, he wasnt doing it to mock asian culture. He was just an idiot.

[Draconi Redfir]

If the lesbian character had been offended, it would a) show that the comic recognised Rayne's behaviour was wrong, b) make her into an actual character that acts like a person, and c) set up for a proper story arc where Rayne does something to redeem himself and prove he's a good person at heart. But since the comic does none of that, we're left with the impression that Rayne's behaviour is perfectly okay and the lesbian character was merely there for Rayne to throw derogatory terms at.

What if she's supposed to be veiwed as a strong-willed lesbian woman who is proud of who she is and doesnt care what other people think?

[Gez]

What if she's supposed to be veiwed as a strong-willed lesbian woman who is proud of who she is and doesnt care what other people think?

If she didn't care what other people think, why would she have indulged Rayne?

Does that character reappear afterwards? She can only be supposed to be viewed as something in particular if she remains at least a supporting character rather than just the extra of the week.

[Typewriter]

Rayne admits he sought her out because she was a "hot lesbian" because he finds her interesting and arousing. He's so interested in her as a person that he never asks her name (heh (http://www.drunkduck.com/Smug_I_Could_Do/5121576/)) -- "Munchy (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20111208)" will do. Then he asks her questions about how lesbians have sex. If you don't see that as objectifying, I don't know what to say. But a lot of people would find that as extremely objectifying. Because she is reduced to her sexuality, and only interesting as a sex fantasy.

He is a sexual deviant, I never denied that. I would also say though that he was curious, asked questions, and was generally fairly nice to her. If I met a celebrity for the first time I'm sure all of my first questions would be about their career, not their favorite food. If I met a porn star I'd definitely be asking a bunch of questions about that. If I met a lesbian I could ask all this kind of stuff of? Yeah, I'd probably ask.



I mean, yeah, we see them playing a bunch of games and the banter is two-ways, with her asking Rayne some questions in return, and being written as intrigued by his personality. (I don't think most real-world lesbians would find his personality intriguing.) But does it matter? The games they play are irrelevant, it's just to show them doing something. I guess it's better than talking heads. It conveys the idea that a lot of time passes and that we only see a few excerpts of their conversation. Good application of "show don't tell" here I suppose. The flipside is that it means that what we do see of their conversation is the important parts -- the Cliff's notes version -- and it boils down to "I'd like to watch two women getting it on".

In my experience people generally have one of two reactions to people like Rayne. They're immediately offended, or they find it fascinating that they are so forward with their thoughts. I don't think it's a far cry for her to go up there and be surprised that he actually asks what is on his mind, rather than beating around the bush creepily.

That being said, his interest in her was based off of the fact that she's a lesbian. That was what caused him to seek her out. I think that by the end he did think she was interesting, he did enjoy being able to ask his questions, and yes he would like to do her. Or watch her do someone else. Does that mean though that she's nothing more to him than a sexual object though?



Given the way the comic works? The entire premise is that Rayne is a jackass to everyone, and they love him for that. (The most extreme negative reaction they can have towards him is a facepalm, in the great tradition of the straight man vs. the wacky, zany main character.

And that's pretty much the problem. The premise is the entire problem. It's about the apology of jackass behavior.

That is the premise though (kind of anyways, I disagree about Rayne being a jerk to everyone). If you don't like the premise then the story isn't for you. If you don't like the premise you can't then try to pick apart the stories and the characters that come from it. You're start point is "I already don't like it".



If it were something where the world punishes Rayne for his behavior, it'd be better accepted. It would be kinda like early Sinfest -- Slick wishes he were Rayne, but he's always turned down, hard.

Alternatively, it could also be easier to accept if it was about a jackass growing as a character and developing some empathy .

Both these options would result in a comic completely different from LICD.

The character has, in my opinion, changed quite a bit over time. Growing and developing some empathy even. But you're right, changing the premise would change the entire comic. It would change into another generic story I have no interest in reading. 0

[QUOTE=Gez;12555299]
That's kinda like the old "no, it's alright, my gay/Jewish/black friends laughed at that joke" defense. Except here the gay Jewish black friend is fictional in this case.

It's a fictional joke in a fictional land by a fictional person.

[Trazoi]

LICD doesn't say "Do whatever you want and screw people who disagree". It says "Imagine how great it would be if you could do whatever you wanted and nobody would have a problem with it".

Wouldn't that be great? If I could make jokes without having to be worried about offending people, unless I was actually trying to be rude to them? But I can't because I do live in a world where people get upset.
Okay, this right here is the entire problem I have with LICD. It's the attitude that it's not my fault if I say something that upsets someone, it's the other person for being upset. LICD is a fantasy world where Ryan Sohmer has placed an idealised version of himself, and engineered the entire world so his avatar can say whatever it wants and not have anyone get upset.

And the tone of the comic is that this should be the ideal situation, like how the real world should act. That's why the comic annoys me; it's sending a message that this is the way the world would be better.

I'm curious though, since I haven't read the entire archive: how many times does someone act like a complete jackass to Rayne, unprovoked? Does the "I can say anything I want, you can't be upset" rule apply to everyone, or just to Rayne?

[Typewriter]

Alright, I started reading so you would take me more seriously, and I direct you to this (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20030228) comic, where Rayne somehow managed to, on short notice, find a bunch of attractive women that were all willing to have a one-night stand with him, presumably without being prostitutes.

I said earlier that in the early strips the entire comic was largely a gag-a-day and that the quality wasn't that great.

I won't try to defend them any more than that beyond saying I don't hate them. If you want to see what I mean by the character having some depth and the other characters being more meaningful I would recommend you start here:
http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20061204

That's when it really starts to get good in my opinion. If you don't like it though I don't expect you to read it, I just didn't like people saying things like the side characters have no depth and that Rayne is a horrible person without having actually read the comic. If you don't like it you don't like it. If you think the character is the devil then I disagree based off of having read the entire archive a few times. And yes, the early comics are not great.

Keep in mind that the beginning of the comic especially was based off of the whole concept of Ryan Sohmer 12 years prior having ultimate wish fulfilment. That picture looks like it fits the bill.

Note: In the comic you linked to, please notice the woman whose leaving. She looks like she's running for dear life.


When people read a comic about human beings, they expect them to be like human beings in real life. Especially in a comic like LICD, where they're in modern day America, which wouldn't have been invented if people had acted different, or at the least would be greatly changed. Why do you think "Mary Sue" is most commonly used in speeches about why things are bad?

That's not how I read webcomics. In fact I think I would hate most of the webcomics I do read if that was my interpretation.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's a fictional joke in a fictional land by a fictional person.

Person: "These jokes aren't funny!"
You: "They think it's funny. So in their world, it's funny and fully acceptable and there's no problem."

...You know these jokes are meant for the people reading the comic, right?

[Draconi Redfir]

If she didn't care what other people think, why would she have indulged Rayne?

Because someone was asking to see her and she figure she would answer, and maybe get some time off without needing to do any work? (wich she did)


Does that character reappear afterwards? She can only be supposed to be viewed as something in particular if she remains at least a supporting character rather than just the extra of the week.

It's only been like one month since that arc, with a daily comic like LICD that’s still pretty recent. She might appear in the future, just not right now.

[Traab]

Okay, this right here is the entire problem I have with LICD. It's the attitude that it's not my fault if I say something that upsets someone, it's the other person for being upset. LICD is a fantasy world where Ryan Sohmer has placed an idealised version of himself, and engineered the entire world so his avatar can say whatever it wants and not have anyone get upset.

And the tone of the comic is that this should be the ideal situation, like how the real world should act. That's why the comic annoys me; it's sending a message that this is the way the world would be better.

I'm curious though, since I haven't read the entire archive: how many times does someone act like a complete jackass to Rayne, unprovoked? Does the "I can say anything I want, you can't be upset" rule apply to everyone, or just to Rayne?

Iirc, there was that snobby bastard with rayne and his niece at space camp. He works for rayne now, which was a whole separate arc though.


It's only been like one month since that arc, with a daily comic like LICD that’s still pretty recent. She might appear in the future, just not right now.

Dont forget the two weeks of "top ten" lists. If the comic has moved forward a week in time id be surprised.

[Trazoi]

Iirc, there was that snobby bastard with rayne and his niece at space camp. He works for rayne now, which was a whole separate arc though.
How did Rayne react to the snobby space camp guy though?

I could possibly see the point if the comic is exploring the "Wouldn't it be nice if no one ever got offended?" angle if the world truly embraced the maxim, which means other people get to be jerks to Rayne too. The whole problem with the maxim is that in practice, jerks who say they believe that act like it only goes one way - they have the right to say what they want, but you aren't allowed to upset them.

Unfortunately I clicked on the link to Rayne's development arc and second strip in (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20061205) has Rayne annoyed and muttering violence against his friend for bringing up commitment. This is pre-development though, so it's possible Rayne gets better. But I haven't read the archives so I don't know. Is modern Rayne chill with everything or can people say stuff to upset him?

[Helanna]

You say that the only reason people like him in the comic is because the world sides with him, yet the comic has a huge fanbase, many of which are women. I'm fairly certain he would be popular in real life based off of his confidence and drive to get what he wants. This is another instance of you simply making stuff up because you don't like the character.


I know a guy who loves LICD. He says he is very much like Rayne and that people compare them a lot. From what I can tell, this is accurate.

Trust me, in real life, this guy would not be very popular. I mean, I like the guy OK, but he drives a lot of people crazy, and honestly I'm kinda just waiting for his life to self-destruct.



You keep using the word offensive. I think we need to discuss our differing opinions on this real quick. Here's what I think you mean by it:

Offensive: Any word/activity/action that anyone anywhere is bothered by.

Here's what I mean by it: Using any words/activity/action to try and hurt someone.

Both can be correct depending on context, but in this one I'd use the first one. The problem you run into with the second one is that it is possible for someone to be legitimately offended by something you didn't intend to be hurtful.


Wouldn't that be great? If I could make jokes without having to be worried about offending people, unless I was actually trying to be rude to them? But I can't because I do live in a world where people get upset.

See, like this. Let's take, for example, black jokes. You (in the general sense) may not mean to offend anyone with them, you may simply think that they're funny. But most of them rely on making light of centuries of horrible racism that continues today. I'd call them offensive, even if you weren't trying to be hurtful with them. Even if no one is actively being bothered when you tell them, I'd call them offensive jokes, just by their nature. Now, if you wanna tell them only to other people that enjoy them, fine - but you can't act like someone is being totally unreasonable if they get offended because "Well, it's just a joke, lighten up."

Edit: My sister just walked into the room. "[Helanna], I need help. Mom is mad at me, she says my 'jokes' are never jokes and they aren't funny. Why does everyone always think my jokes are so offensive?" (For the record, it's because her 'jokes' usually consist of saying something mean/outright lying and then saying "It was a joke, relax!")

[Traab]

How did Rayne react to the snobby space camp guy though?

I could possibly see the point if the comic is exploring the "Wouldn't it be nice if no one ever got offended?" angle if the world truly embraced the maxim, which means other people get to be jerks to Rayne too. The whole problem with the maxim is that in practice, jerks who say they believe that act like it only goes one way - they have the right to say what they want, but you aren't allowed to upset them.

Unfortunately I clicked on the link to Rayne's development arc and second strip in (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20061205) has Rayne annoyed and muttering violence against his friend for bringing up commitment. This is pre-development though, so it's possible Rayne gets better. But I haven't read the archives so I don't know. Is modern Rayne chill with everything or can people say stuff to upset him?

How did he react? They didnt get along. Oh, and here (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20070118) is a comic where his smartassery doesnt work in his favor.

[Trazoi]

How did he react? They didnt get along.
Is this his introduction? (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20060704) I'll admit Rayne is less upset by the snobby guy and more "Hooray! Now I've got a target for my jackassery!"
Although at the end of the arc, (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20060721) he seems to be pretty annoyed given all the snobby guy did was be snobby to him and beat him fair and square at the competition. Althouigh I assume that even though Rayne has the opportunity for revenge which I assume comes up in a later arc, Rayne isn't at all offended from what the snobby guy said. :smalltongue:

Edit: Overall though that arc was definitely better than the lesbian one (although it was hard to dip below that!) The presence of Rayne's niece did make things better. But I was disappointed in the snobby guy. I wanted to see how Rayne reacted to a foil, but all the snobby guy does to Rayne is in those two strips I linked to. Almost the entire rest of the arc is Rayne being a jackass to everyone around him. And random Wil Wheaton cameo.


Oh, and here (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20070118) is a comic where his smartassery doesnt work in his favor.
Honestly from the way that is written it appears Rayne intended to do that to hurt his friend.

[Traab]

Is this his introduction? (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20060704) I'll admit Rayne is less upset by the snobby guy and more "Hooray! Now I've got a target for my jackassery!"
Although at the end of the arc, (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20060721) he seems to be pretty annoyed given all the snobby guy did was be snobby to him and beat him fair and square at the competition. Althouigh I assume that even though Rayne has the opportunity for revenge which I assume comes up in a later arc, Rayne isn't at all offended from what the snobby guy said. :smalltongue:

Edit: Overall though that arc was definitely better than the lesbian one (although it was hard to dip below that!) The presence of Rayne's niece did make things better. But I was disappointed in the snobby guy. I wanted to see how Rayne reacted to a foil, but all the snobby guy does to Rayne is in those two strips I linked to. Almost the entire rest of the arc is Rayne being a jackass to everyone around him. And random Wil Wheaton cameo.


Honestly from the way that is written it appears Rayne intended to do that to hurt his friend.

Yeah, i reread the arc too, that and the one where snob boy interviews for a job with rayne. Its been awhile since I read the archives so I must have mentally increased the level of nastiness. :p

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Re-opened.

[Traab]

You know, series like this one is why I could never be a psychologist. Im sure that by this point i would have cold cocked rayne and dumped his unconscious body out on the sidewalk. The worst part is, im sure there are therapists out there that actually run into people this bad or worse on the annoyance scale, and they are supposed to try and help them. Ugh. I also really dont feel the need to dwell on 14 days worth of strips of rayne being an ass to a therapist until we finally reach the forgone conclusion that yes, he does suffer from depression and needs drugs for it. Even though the timeline of the comic has gone on for years by now and this has never come up before, or even been hinted at beyond the utterly obvious fact that he has mental problems just from his actions.

[Draconi Redfir]

Are people not allowed to realize a character may have a problem, and add depth to try and make up for it?:smallconfused:

[Traab]

Are people not allowed to realize a character may have a problem, and add depth to try and make up for it?:smallconfused:

Except his "problem" (which is his personality) has already been covered by that silly arc where kira knightly (i think) took him on an ebeneezr scrooge style visit to his past present and future so he could remember why he acts like he does and come to the conclusion that hey, he is pretty damn awesome after all and his behavior is just fine! Only now, instead of it being a conscious choice that is working out well for him, it turns out that he is clinically depressed and has been using medication for some undetermined length of time to keep his intestines from leaping out of his body and strangling him due to repressed stress.

It just feels like a ham handed attempt to say, "hey look! My self insert god of awesome has problems too!" Of course, said problems have no effect at all on the character himself, as he has been treated for them all this time without it ever coming out into the open until he had to teach his buddy a lesson of some sort. And once this arc is finished, it will likely never come up again, except once or twice to remind us that even though it doesnt effect him visibly, he has problems too.

[Draconi Redfir]

allright try this: Every arc of Least i could do is a completely separate universe from every other arc, unless said arc references or is biased upon an earlier arc. Therefore: they are not all the same character, but multiple different ones with mildly different histories.

Rayne isn't a sue, just a universal constant :smalltongue:

[NinjaStylerobot]

You know, I find LICD a funny parallel to "So your a Cartoonist".

As in LICD is a Super dire extra power XXXXXL version of SYAC

While both a re author inserts telling about thier opinions while idiotic straw-men fawn over them In a sense LICD is better and worse.

Syac feels like some guy that says "My views are totally controversial, and im smart and everybody loves me!" over and over to himself in a mirror while wiping away tears.

Licd feels like a guy that came up to a mirror and said "Yeah, id **** me. Mmmmm. I love you" with a gigantic genuine smirk on his face.

Both art styles are near exact same. Just one tackles the authors insignificant issues and lacks any confidence, LICD tackles gigantic issues fails, and feels extremly smug.

[Lynn]

Except his "problem" (which is his personality) has already been covered by that silly arc where kira knightly (i think) took him on an ebeneezr scrooge style visit to his past present and future so he could remember why he acts like he does and come to the conclusion that hey, he is pretty damn awesome after all and his behavior is just fine! Only now, instead of it being a conscious choice that is working out well for him, it turns out that he is clinically depressed and has been using medication for some undetermined length of time to keep his intestines from leaping out of his body and strangling him due to repressed stress.

It just feels like a ham handed attempt to say, "hey look! My self insert god of awesome has problems too!" Of course, said problems have no effect at all on the character himself, as he has been treated for them all this time without it ever coming out into the open until he had to teach his buddy a lesson of some sort. And once this arc is finished, it will likely never come up again, except once or twice to remind us that even though it doesnt effect him visibly, he has problems too.

The Keira Knightley vision only showed that his behavior wont lead him to die alone and hated by all. It was never said that he didn't have a problem. And his problem is not his personality itself, the problem is that his carefree attitude is a facade. It adds depth and believability to the character because nobody can be this carefree and happy all the the time. Now we know, that he can be unhappy, he has just been hiding it from everyone including himself. And that has been making him sick.


I know a guy who loves LICD. He says he is very much like Rayne and that people compare them a lot. From what I can tell, this is accurate.

Trust me, in real life, this guy would not be very popular. I mean, I like the guy OK, but he drives a lot of people crazy, and honestly I'm kinda just waiting for his life to self-destruct.

I guess it is the same artistic license that allows characters like House to keep their job.

[Traab]

The Keira Knightley vision only showed that his behavior wont lead him to die alone and hated by all. It was never said that he didn't have a problem. And his problem is not his personality itself, the problem is that his carefree attitude is a facade. It adds depth and believability to the character because nobody can be this carefree and happy all the the time. Now we know, that he can be unhappy, he has just been hiding it from everyone including himself. And that has been making him sick.


I guess it is the same artistic license that allows characters like House to keep their job.

But thats the thing, we hear that apparently it had made him sick at an undisclosed time in the past, but due to his pills, we have never once seen any sign that this existed. Just as a comparison, take early questionable content. In it we see fayes behavior, and we dont know why she acts the way she does. Then comes the big reveal, and it all makes sense. We can look back at the earlier strips and see the signs. In LICD rayne has never shown any sign of depression or being physically effected by it.

It has the same impact as if in the next arc a terrorist sets up a bomb and rayne reveals that all this time he has been a retired expert bomb tech and defuses it. Its clearly just added in to progress the story, not an actual part of his character from the very start. If there had been comics where we see rayne popping pills in the background, or been seen grimacing and holding his stomach, then it would have shown there was some sort of lead up to this. The only thing that would even partially make up for this is if going forward his depression at least gets brought up from time to time, like if his buddy needs someone to talk to a couple months from now. But even then its only trying to justify the change after the fact.

[PhantomFox]

To put it succinctly, it doesn't count as character depth if it wasn't foreshadowed or character growth if it doesn't change any of his behavior.

[uncool]

Are people not allowed to realize a character may have a problem, and add depth to try and make up for it?:smallconfused:

That's not depth. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedFlaw) (tvtropes warning)

Depth would explain why Rayne does what he does. This doesn't explain anything about what he does.
=Uncool-

[Trazoi]

I've skimmed through the last couple of weeks and I'm confused. Rayne's obvious problem is his in-your-face sociopathic attitude, and I could see that possibly being a facade for some dark buried reasons why Rayne can't form meaningful relationships with people. But I wouldn't expect LICD to go down that path, and apparently I'm right because it seems Rayne is taking pills to remain a sociopath?

I'm really confused and all I can take out of that arc was that that is the worst shrink I've ever seen. "You obviously have insanely high self esteem. You must be depressed."

[Traab]

"Here, take these pills so you can continue acting like a sociopath without that horrible guilty conscience."

Of course, the really scary thought is that the way rayne acts now is an IMPROVEMENT over how he used to be!

[NinjaStylerobot]

Thing that hurts me about LICD logic is how bullying it acts.

"If you dislike what I tell you your a prude".

That logic can be applied to allot of things:

"Hey its just some sexual harassment, why do you care if my hands are on your ass or not? Its not like your getting hurt.":smallannoyed:

[Lynn]

I've skimmed through the last couple of weeks and I'm confused. Rayne's obvious problem is his in-your-face sociopathic attitude, and I could see that possibly being a facade for some dark buried reasons why Rayne can't form meaningful relationships with people. But I wouldn't expect LICD to go down that path, and apparently I'm right because it seems Rayne is taking pills to remain a sociopath?

I'm really confused and all I can take out of that arc was that that is the worst shrink I've ever seen. "You obviously have insanely high self esteem. You must be depressed."

Being a douche is not a condition. Raynes issue never was his insanely high self esteem, or the fact that he is willing to offend everyone and anyone for the sake of it. I was that he followed his own "suck it up" advice whenever anything affected him. The point of this arc is not to make Rayne more sympathetic, I think. No, he still doesn't have any excuse for being an douche. The comic has always been unapologetic about it and it will surely remain so.
The shrink is competent, his job is not to make Rayne a better person, it is to make him feel better.

[Trazoi]

Being a douche is not a condition.
It kind of is, especially for someone like Rayne. He's a sociopath, crossing into psychopath territory. When he drops his pants in front of the psychiatrist to (sigh) get a rise out of him, that's an indicator of something more broken than a mild phase of depression.

I'm nonplussed because depression is from low self esteem - feelings of hopelessness and lack of self worth. Maybe I missed something but the shrink didn't nearly talk with Rayne enough to come to the conclusion that his raging egotistical narcissism was all a facade for inner inadequacy. The sequence missed the bit where Rayne's mask falls off and reveals the inner weakness that is causing him pain; you know, the character development part. Instead the shrink just said "I think it's a facade" and dished out the pills. That's not going to solve anything. All anti-depression meds do is help you think clearly again; it's not going to magically solve whatever is causing the problems.

I was interested because the comments suggested that maybe Rayne was getting some character development, but it looks like it was all... filler, I guess? I'm not sure what the point of the arc was.

[Cleverdan22]

Reading this topic I've come to the conclusion that people can't cope with a protagonist doesn't try to be a wholly perfect person.

The point of Rayne isn't that he's perfect. Sohmer doesn't think he's perfect, and he assumes that the audience gets that too. The point is to make stories around a sexually-deviant, non-PC, but pretty well-intentioned person, and see where the jokes fall there.

[NinjaStylerobot]

People can't hope with HORRIBLE AWFUL people getting good stuff happen to them and saying that were all stupid that we don't call each other ******s or fat or ******. Were all "squares".

Hes NOT a well intentioned person. Hes cruel, douchey, smug and pretentious.

[Helanna]

Reading this topic I've come to the conclusion that people can't cope with a protagonist doesn't try to be a wholly perfect person.

The point of Rayne isn't that he's perfect. Sohmer doesn't think he's perfect, and he assumes that the audience gets that too. The point is to make stories around a sexually-deviant, non-PC, but pretty well-intentioned person, and see where the jokes fall there.

Yes, because if someone has a differing opinion it's okay to tell them that they're obviously too stupid and narrow-minded to 'get' the comic. And yes, you come off as being that condescending and insulting.

Yeah, we get it. The problem isn't that Rayne doesn't try to be perfect. Nobody tries to be perfect. But good characters, like real people, do try to identify and fix their flaws over time, becoming dynamic and well-rounded characters, because static characters are boring to read about.

In addition, the problem isn't that Rayne is less than perfect, it's that many, many people find him downright awful and unlikable. You can argue about how fair that is all you want, but saying that we just 'can't cope' when we've already *explained* our opinions makes you sound like you can't come up with a decent argument and are trying to blame us just for disliking the comic, and frankly it's insulting.

[Traab]

And honestly, id rather we stay away from the "why we hate/dont hate this comic" discussion, as it has already gotten VERY close to getting the thread shut down. Lets just leave it at a similar level to DD. Snark away at all the messed up stuff that happens in it. And if you dont like the comic, instead of coming here trying to convince everyone how much it sucks/rules, just dont read the comic or post here. It just leads to thread lockings and unhappiness. That is the path to the dark side. As opposed to the snark side which is awesome because they have cake and pie.

[Lynn]

I understand that some readers dislike Rayne, he is extremely annoying in universe to put it mildly, and it tends to transpire through the fourth wall.
But I don't get how you can call him "cruel", "a sociopath", or "a psychopath". The last two imply an absolute lack of empathy, a total inability to bond with others, witch is clearly contradicted by the way he acts with his friends and his niece.
Rayne is extremely self-centered and whimsical but he doesn't mean harm. Most of the time it just doesn't occur him that the consequence of his actions can hurt others (or himself for that matter). He rarely acts selflessly because he is so self-centered that he is hardly aware of others people's needs. But when he does he is even more reckless than when acting for his own interests. This arc come to mind (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20071127)

[Cleverdan22]

I understand that some readers dislike Rayne, he is extremely annoying in universe to put it mildly, and it tends to transpire through the fourth wall.
But I don't get how you can call him "cruel", "a sociopath", or "a psychopath". The last two imply an absolute lack of empathy, a total inability to bond with others, witch is clearly contradicted by the way he acts with his friends and his niece.
Rayne is extremely self-centered and whimsical but he doesn't mean harm. Most of the time it just doesn't occur him that the consequence of his actions can hurt others (or himself for that matter). He rarely acts selflessly because he is so self-centered that he is hardly aware of others people's needs. But when he does he is even more reckless than when acting for his own interests. This arc come to mind (http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20071127)

This is essentially part of my point, sorry I came off as the most unrelenting horrible person by saying the word "cope."

But I do remain by what I said. The people criticizing the comic for Rayne being not a perfect person really aren't criticizing it for the right reason, that's really been the point from day one. If you simply don't like the premise, don't go on long tirades however many years into the comic's existence about how much you hate it for the premise. If you're reading it, and finding recent developments not as satisfying or as funny as they once were, that's a different story.

I'm all for this going back to being a simple discussion thread, but I had just found my way back onto the forums, saw this topic, then read all five pages of this, so I had a reactionary post.

[Trazoi]

But I don't get how you can call him "cruel", "a sociopath", or "a psychopath". The last two imply an absolute lack of empathy, a total inability to bond with others, witch is clearly contradicted by the way he acts with his friends and his niece.
A sociopath, from the WHO's criteria list taken from Wikipedia, has the traits of: unconcern for the feelings of others; persistent attitude of irresponsiblity & disregard for social norms, rules and obligations; incapacity to maintain enduring relationships; very low tolerance to frustration; incapacity to experience guilt; prone to blame others or offer rationalisations for the behaviour that brought him/herself into conflict with society. Juding by his general behaviour in a standard strip, that reads like a very close fit for describing Rayne. There are exceptions where he acts counter to that, but those are exceptions. Generally he acts like a sociopath. (Most of the strips I've read with his friends he is ghastly towards them.)

Having a sociopathic main character is fine BTW, especially in comedy. It's putting Rayne in a charmed universe where everyone loves him for acting the sociopath that makes the comic grating.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Acting nice once in a while does not dismiss Trazois points.

[Oeep Snaec]

While I still check it daily, I have been growing weary of Sohmer's insistence on not developing some of the story he has set up for Rayne. So we saw what happened with Marcy and her boyfriend, how Rayne thought of her as a romantic option, but essentially setting her aside while he continues to romp around and then expecting her to be there when he's ready to settle. However, what I am most curious about is the girl that he has been pining over for years, if that is even a thing for him anymore.

I guess as much as I enjoy some good gag strips, I'd really like to see a long character development arc, more than just "Rayne has depression and so meds for John yaaaay." I feel like there hasn't been any story that could be added to the archived list of stories in a couple years now

[Foeofthelance]

Acting nice once in a while does not dismiss Trazois points.

Yeah, but Rayne isn't nice "once in a while". He is there each and every time his friends and family need him. He's incredibly sarcastic, doesn't push boundaries only because he doesn't realize there are boundaries there in the first place, and has absolutely no sense of what's appropriate. But when Issa is being insulted at the Audi dealership, Rayne is the first one to jump in. When Mick is about to get punched at the sorority party, Rayne is the one who gets to be a horsie. After his near death experience, the first thing he does is go visit his niece when everyone else is expecting him to try and hook up with someone. When he moves out of the apartment, he makes sure to get a house with a garage so that Urchin and Harry have a place to stay as well. He stages the charity event so that the people who attend can't just clap themselves on the back about how generous they are, but actually makes them confront the issue head on. The whole "Rayne sees a psychiatrist" arc wasn't supposed to be about, "OMG, Rayne was depressed!" it was about him letting John know there wasn't anything wrong with admitting you have a problem and getting help for it. He's doing it again in today's strip: "Firing" Nancy so that she can have a night off with her date, while he takes care of her kid and "rehires" her in the morning.

And you can't say Rayen doesn't have any lasting relationships. He doesn't have a lasting romantic relationship, but at the same time his circle of friends never seems to decrease, and even grows a little bit larger over the course of the comic. And what seems to get left out is that Rayne's friends can be just as off the wall as he is. They consider his antics to be occasionally embarrassing, but mostly kind of fun. They enjoy hanging out with him because he amuses them and has no problem when they fire back with their own insults and slights.

I think the real problem is that we never see Rayne not being a jerk, the same way we don't see Superman pausing to use the bathroom. The comic relies on Rayne's antics, so there is no point to showing him going grocery shopping, reading expense reports, analyzing resumes, or going for his yearly check up - not unless he is doing something absurd and/or irresponsible.

[Traab]

Yeah, but Rayne isn't nice "once in a while". He is there each and every time his friends and family need him. He's incredibly sarcastic, doesn't push boundaries only because he doesn't realize there are boundaries there in the first place, and has absolutely no sense of what's appropriate. But when Issa is being insulted at the Audi dealership, Rayne is the first one to jump in. When Mick is about to get punched at the sorority party, Rayne is the one who gets to be a horsie. After his near death experience, the first thing he does is go visit his niece when everyone else is expecting him to try and hook up with someone. When he moves out of the apartment, he makes sure to get a house with a garage so that Urchin and Harry have a place to stay as well. He stages the charity event so that the people who attend can't just clap themselves on the back about how generous they are, but actually makes them confront the issue head on. The whole "Rayne sees a psychiatrist" arc wasn't supposed to be about, "OMG, Rayne was depressed!" it was about him letting John know there wasn't anything wrong with admitting you have a problem and getting help for it. He's doing it again in today's strip: "Firing" Nancy so that she can have a night off with her date, while he takes care of her kid and "rehires" her in the morning.

And you can't say Rayen doesn't have any lasting relationships. He doesn't have a lasting romantic relationship, but at the same time his circle of friends never seems to decrease, and even grows a little bit larger over the course of the comic. And what seems to get left out is that Rayne's friends can be just as off the wall as he is. They consider his antics to be occasionally embarrassing, but mostly kind of fun. They enjoy hanging out with him because he amuses them and has no problem when they fire back with their own insults and slights.

I think the real problem is that we never see Rayne not being a jerk, the same way we don't see Superman pausing to use the bathroom. The comic relies on Rayne's antics, so there is no point to showing him going grocery shopping, reading expense reports, analyzing resumes, or going for his yearly check up - not unless he is doing something absurd and/or irresponsible.

I couldnt have said it better. He has shown time and time again that when the chips are down, his friends can count on him. He may do some pretty insane things, and act as if nothing is off limits to talk about or do, but I cant think of many times past the early crap where he was ever deliberately cruel. Take the lesbian hunting arc. He wasnt doing that stuff to be cruel, or to humiliate the girl, he has no sense of the appropriate, (something that the psychologist might have noticed and should have been working on) and was just following his first impulse to track down this girl and find out everything about her. His main issues are impulse control and his utter lack of understanding when it comes to appropriate behavior. Not sociopathy, psychopathy, or any other horrible pathys you might want to include on the list.

[Trazoi]

The problem isn't Rayne's character per se, it's the reaction of everyone to Rayne. It doesn't matter how golden Rayne's heart is if said heart is buried under multiple levels of weapon-grade jerkass. No-one should hang around him long enough to find out about the real Rayne. And if somehow someone does, they still shouldn't want to spend much time with him.

In short: the problem isn't that he's an obnoxious boor, it's that no-one reacts to him acting as one.

The few character moments where Rayne is nice to someone felt like mood whiplash, like suddenly Rayne knew what empathy was but then completely forgot next strip. Honestly they felt like Sohmer trying to force home a message that Rayne isn't a bad guy sandwiched between strips of him abusing people.

[NinjaStylerobot]

The few character moments where Rayne is nice to someone felt like mood whiplash, like suddenly Rayne knew what empathy was but then completely forgot next strip. Honestly they felt like Sohmer trying to force home a message that Rayne isn't a bad guy sandwiched between strips of him abusing people.

Pretty much. Yeah. :smallsigh:

[Foeofthelance]

The problem isn't Rayne's character per se, it's the reaction of everyone to Rayne. It doesn't matter how golden Rayne's heart is if said heart is buried under multiple levels of weapon-grade jerkass. No-one should hang around him long enough to find out about the real Rayne. And if somehow someone does, they still shouldn't want to spend much time with him.

In short: the problem isn't that he's an obnoxious boor, it's that no-one reacts to him acting as one.

The few character moments where Rayne is nice to someone felt like mood whiplash, like suddenly Rayne knew what empathy was but then completely forgot next strip. Honestly they felt like Sohmer trying to force home a message that Rayne isn't a bad guy sandwiched between strips of him abusing people.

Actually, there are plenty of people who react to Rayne being Rayne. Or have you missed all the face palming, thrown drinks, ugly looks, slaps, and other consequences of him being stupid in front of total strangers? What you're missing is that just about everyone in the strip acts that way. You're acting as if the rest of the cast was drawn from Leave it to Beaver and someone transplanted the Joker into their midst. Rayne might be the focus of the comic, but they all get in on the action. Eric spends all his screen time tormenting/upstaging Rayne, Mick gets Rayne so loaded on Red Bull that Rayne literally thinks he can fly and Mick does nothing to stop this but in fact encourages Rayne to try. John has Darth freakin' Vader as a conscious. Harry is aggressively belligerent in just about every interaction. If Rayne isn't antagonizing them, then they are antagonizing him, or everyone else is off on some grand adventure.

Because they do. Whether its going sky diving, taking out a boat, taking a vacation to Jamaica (and screwing up by going to a couples only resort), going to a car dealership, buying a new house, going to the movies... There are plenty of instances where Rayne is his usual childish self without being mean to his friends, or where they are being mean to him.

Because that's the key to all of this. Rayne is a huge man child who doesn't understand the concept of maturity, but NOTHING is more important to him than his friends and family, and he would do and has done just about anything for them. They, in turn, ignore his more obnoxious moments because not only do they enjoy the games he plays, they also know they are allowed to play back, and are actively encouraged by Rayne himself to take their shots when they want to. Rayne might not be the world's greatest sympathizer, but that's not his role in the group. He is King and Jester both, wrapped up into one great big energetic package.

[Trazoi]

I'm more curious in that people keep describing what sounds like a fairly reasonable character based comedy arrangement, but when I go read another story arc I can't see any of that. I find every arc to mainly flow around whatever Sohmer thinks is funny for that day rather than any concern about character development. I'm not getting a feeling of character from anyone in the comic, and because most of jokes are based around Character A abusing Character B in his comics I'm not surprised every main character ends up a jerkass.

Anyway, I'll bow out from this thread until something new happens because the thread will end up on the brink of shutdown again. I was mainly interested in the psychiartist arc since I wanted to see what some character development for Rayne was like, but that ended up going nowhere.