Roguelikes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

The Succubus

2012-01-09, 08:38 AM

No, thisn't about backstabbing dirtbags, nor is it anything to do with make-up.

Roguelikes are games where the key focus is to stay alive in a series of randomly generated levels. A couple of them have been eating quite a lot of my free time lately - the awesome Spelunky (which is free on PC - gogo download it!) and the fun, addictive and horribly disturbing The Binding of Issac.

Spelunky should be familiar to anyone that ever played Boulder Dash back in the days of 8-bit. You're an explorer with a funky hat and whip, armed with bombs and ropes and the goal of each level is to descend downwards to the exit, collecting treasure on the way. There are various weird and wonderful items like jetpacks, web guns and pickaxes to collect on the way down and the levels get increasingly harder as you descend.

The Binding of Issac.....well, it's underlying themes of child neglect, religious mania and abuse set a very grim backdrop for what is essentially a Zelda-type game. Tarot cards, unlabelled pills and a plentiful supply of keys and bombs help you collected disturbing items that can increase your survivability or power up your main weapon, which are tears...:smallfrown::smalleek: Unlockable characters and over 200 unlockable items provide a lot of longevity in this game (I've yet to beat the game a second time, which unlocks a further couple of levels and a character).

What sets roguelikes apart from most games is that there is no save function, no checkpoints, limited lives - much like old school games. They also have a tendancy to be absolutely merciless in regards to mistakes (in Spelunky, one misplaced step will have you falling off a lethal ledge, into some spikes or getting nommed by a man-eating plant) and Issac gets tougher the more items are unlocked.

Does anyone else on here know of games like these?

Alge'n

2012-01-09, 09:20 AM

While Spelunky and Binding of Isaac can be considered roguelikes, the fact that they're not turn-based makes them somewhat odd examples. More conventional rogue-likes would be Nethack, Dungeon Crawl, ToME and Angband for example.

Of these, I think I've played more Dungeon Crawl : Stone Soup (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/) than any other (solo) game, which is no small achievement. I played the others a fair bit too but I always come back to DCSS, it's like a drug.

Grif

2012-01-09, 09:23 AM

Dungeons of Dredmor (http://www.dungeonsofdredmor.com/)

A roguelike for a more modern audience. :smallwink:

Sprinter

2012-01-09, 10:12 AM

Cespenar

2012-01-09, 11:18 AM

ADOM, Incursion, and DoomRL were the ones I most poured time into. Hundreds of characters in ADOM, much less in the other two, but both are excellent roguelikes.

Also, much as I love Spelunky, its roundabout yet existent save-game feature might take the "roguelike" tag off of it, if one would be somewhat pedantic.

Leecros

2012-01-09, 11:27 AM

Dwarf Fortress (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/) has a fun little Adventure mode that is a roguelike, but it's very much in development. On top of the fact that the fortress mode(it's main attraction) is quite fun also.

I've never considered Binding of Isaac as a true roguelike...There's just too much (in my opinion) that separates it from real roguelikes.

1. It's too easy.

Yes, it took me ten tries to beat it once. I've probably played Nethack a hundred times and have never beaten it.

2. It's not nearly as random as people think.

The layouts of the floors may be random, but the rooms definitely are not. I certainly can't be the only one whom has run into the exact same room three times on the same floor. Typical Roguelikes(from my experiences) tend to procedurally generate things so that you're very hard pressed to find a room that's exactly the same.

3. It's not turn based.

that pretty much explains itself.

if it had even one of these then i would probably consider it closer to a roguelike, but right now it's closer to a dungeon crawl game like Diablo, Fate, or Titan Quest than most roguelikes.

DabblerWizard

2012-01-09, 11:30 AM

Dwarf Fortress is essentially a rogue-like. Regular players call it a simulation instead of a "game" in the sense that DF doesn't do any hand holding and doom is essentially inevitable.

Fair warning, the ASCII graphics are abysmal, and the interface is largely non-intuitive. The graphics can be fixed with a graphics pack. I use one that I found in the Lazy Newb Pack that makes things much more intelligible.

The interface and game play tend to require extensive reading of the Wiki, but watching a let's play, or figuring it out on your own, also works.

Once you get over the above speed bumps, the game is fun. It acts like an RTS, because you know Fun (i.e. DOOM) is just around the corner so you prepare for it, and it's a good challenge. The game has a nice degree of complexity as well.

Edit: Ninja'd by leecros

KillianHawkeye

2012-01-10, 08:21 AM

I just got a new game called POWDER which is like Rogue with graphics. Info here. (http://www.zincland.com/powder/index.php?pagename=about)

nooblade

2012-01-10, 01:21 PM

Fair warning, the ASCII graphics are abysmal, and the interface is largely non-intuitive. The graphics can be fixed with a graphics pack. I use one that I found in the Lazy Newb Pack that makes things much more intelligible.

I used to think this was standard for "Roguelikes" and that adding graphics and use of the mouse turns the game into a Diablo clone. You could spend a lot of time arguing with people about such things, FYI.

I think my favorite is ADOM, but if Incursion ever finishes the final product may be close behind. I must have made a thousand ADOM characters, but I'd guess only a hundred of them did anything significant (discovering new parts of the game or items) with their lives. I "won" the game once with a grey elf wizard, possibly the most fun I've ever had with a game, albeit the smallest kind of victory over forces of ChAoS in the Drakalor area. That was maybe two years ago? Remembering makes me want to play again.

The graphics are wimpy but my imagination can run wild more than with games with graphics. The precious implements of war gathered in dull steel armories in Darkforge, the Tower of Eternal Flames with conflagration only interrupted by some quirky Frost Giants appearing in random brimstone rooms for no reason (I blame chaos), digging in the graveyards desperate for some object of power to help over the hurdle some other characters had died at (and hoping powerful undead don't arise), finding the underground dwarves at last, getting assassinated in Lawenilothehl, fighting an invisible foe in the Arena for the Golden Gladius, the first encounters with the chaos guardian levels and the dull pain of going deeper and deeper into the Caverns of Chaos hoping there aren't more crazy places or that they won't get more difficult... Such an epic game! I can see it all so clearly I want to draw pictures.

I wish more games were like that.

Cespenar

2012-01-10, 01:39 PM

I think my favorite is ADOM, but if Incursion ever finishes the final product may be close behind. I must have made a thousand ADOM characters, but I'd guess only a hundred of them did anything significant (discovering new parts of the game or items) with their lives. I "won" the game once with a grey elf wizard, possibly the most fun I've ever had with a game, albeit the smallest kind of victory over forces of ChAoS in the Drakalor area. That was maybe two years ago? Remembering makes me want to play again.

Heh. This is funny, but this paragraph applies to me exactly as well. Down to winning the game only once with a grey elf wizard, and it being two years ago. :smallbiggrin:

Winthur

2012-01-10, 01:43 PM

doomRL (doom.chaosforge.org) (RL means roguelike) nice mix between FPS and roguelike with sounds from original Doom.

Accidently few days ago first tiles (graphical) beta version was released which looks even better then the original doom :smallwink:

This is the only roguelike I've beaten - granted, on the easiest mode, and until later difficulties it doesn't really get that challenging (mostly because it's not a very long game).

I had been trying really hard to beat ADOM before I kinda gave up on roguelikes altogether but alas, I never managed to venture into ToEF. ToEF is a terribly scary place anyway, I figure I would melt there in a second. So far I went past the Dwarven graveyard and done the Pyramid with my best characters, but that's it. Sadface.

Maybe one day I will try beating it again until I roll my eye at yet another stupid death.

Derjuin

2012-01-10, 01:56 PM

I have to voice favoritism for ADOM; out of all the roguelikes I've played, it's the only one that's really kept my interest. I blame the engaging fact that it has a story :smalltongue:. There are also tons of dungeons to explore that aren't necessary to complete the game the standard way (though some of them you can only explore if you are completing the game in a nonstandard way). Also silly little things like searching the Monster Memory for Thomas Biskup (the Creator as the fanbase likes to call him).

There's been updates about JADE, the successor to ADOM, which amazes me because there hadn't been anything said about it for like 6 years or something crazy. It's looking to be an incredibly complex ...uh, roguelike/simulator? I don't even know what it would be classified as since it is supposed to emulate an entire world that you can explore, delve into, interact with, etc.

Maybe one day I will try beating it again until I roll my eye at yet another stupid death.

But that's half the fun of ADOM! There's something like 147 different ways to die; you gotta find 'em all! :smalltongue: On the brighter side, it is very possible to beat the game with every race/class combo imaginable, so keep on trucking and you'll get there eventually!

Douglas

2012-01-10, 03:24 PM

But that's half the fun of ADOM! There's something like 147 different ways to die; you gotta find 'em all! :smalltongue:
Try finding all the easter eggs/Things-The-Devs-Thought-Of in Nethack.:smalleek:

For example, what method of death results in the game describing you as having died due to "Elementary Physics"? And how do you kill a monster by pissing off your patron deity?

Cespenar

2012-01-10, 03:36 PM

Vilyathas

2012-01-11, 02:08 AM

Alphaman (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Alphaman) is my introduction into roguelike games. It's set in a post-apocalyptic setting, where you play a mutant with random abilities who gets missions via a self-destructing tape recorder.

It's a really fun and quirky game with berries and tech devices replacing potions and magic items. The bosses are very interesting, and each boss has a very specific weakness to exploit. Expect to fight Elvis (and his hordes of impersonators), the crew of Gilligan's Island, the Grinch, Donald Trump, etc.

factotum

2012-01-11, 02:34 AM

For example, what method of death results in the game describing you as having died due to "Elementary Physics"? And how do you kill a monster by pissing off your patron deity?

First one's easy--just throw a cockatrice corpse up some stairs, it'll fall back down, hit you, and turn you to stone. No idea about the second one!

Lord Seth

2012-01-11, 02:40 AM

What sets roguelikes apart from most games is that there is no save function, no checkpoints, limited lives - much like old school games.NetHack is a roguelike through and through and it has a save function.

Shishnarfne

2012-01-11, 02:44 AM

First one's easy--just throw a cockatrice corpse up some stairs, it'll fall back down, hit you, and turn you to stone. No idea about the second one!

For the second one (killing a monster by offending your patron deity), I believe it requires you to have innate disintegration resistance... (and only works on enemies with a specific type of attack). At least... that's the first way that I can think of. Supposedly, it breaks pacifist conduct, too.

The Succubus

2012-01-11, 05:00 AM

factotum

2012-01-11, 06:02 AM

I can see a lot of potential for fun and diverse character creation ideas in these sorts of games but would it really kill them to throw in a tutorial of some sort? :smallfrown:

The whole point of Roguelikes is to die in new and interesting ways and thus learn from that...a tutorial would be kind of against the root idea :smallwink:. I mean, I often wonder why Nethack has separate keyboard keys for eating and drinking, or for equipping an amulet versus putting on an item of clothing...99% of the time the distinction isn't important! It's just the way these things tend to work.

Sprinter

2012-01-11, 07:03 AM

Hmmm, it appears I have been operating under some misapprehensions about what a roguelike is.

I'd still class Spelunky as a roguelike but I'm starting to see the point about why Binding of Issac is more "unforgiving dungeon crawler or hardmode Diablo" rather than a true roguelike.

I tried downloading a couple of roguelikes last night - NetHack, ADOM (Jade version) and Dungeons of Dredmor. The latter was the only one that made any kind of sense to me whatsoever. I don't mind games being difficult but I like to be able to understand what I'm looking at and what I'm actually doing.

NetHack came with a massive wall-of-text that was laughingly referred to as a guidebook which made absolutely no sense to me at all.

I can see a lot of potential for fun and diverse character creation ideas in these sorts of games but would it really kill them to throw in a tutorial of some sort? :smallfrown:

Adom and Nethack arent newbie friendly at all you need to spend months/ years to even get anywhere unspoilered. i played nethack for a decade on and off. There are tons of stuff you need to know like edible/beneficial corpses, how to tame a pet, list of things to wish for, how to engrave protective ward, and tons of way game can kill you. These things are challenging but not really fun. When i found about Dungeon Crawl which is like Nethack but eliminates most of checklists and grinds (puding farming anyone?) i never looked back at nethack.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-11, 07:36 AM

I'll vouch for Dungeon Crawl as well. Keep going back to it every few months.

Cogwheel

2012-01-11, 08:49 AM

I'll vouch for Dungeon Crawl as well. Keep going back to it every few months.

Never heard of Dungeon Crawl before. What's it like?

BlackSheep

2012-01-11, 08:56 AM

Seconding Dungeon Crawl. If you want a way to introduce yourself to roguelikes, Crawl is the way to go. It has a nice tutorial, a further "hints" mode that lets you play the actual game with some helpful pointers along the way, an autoexplore feature and an interface that's constantly being improved.

Edit: Here's a link
http://crawl.develz.org/

Science Officer

2012-01-11, 10:11 AM

+1 for DoomRL (fun and sort of easy), Dredmor (very fun and very easy), and ADOM (ahahahaha)

I only wish Dredmor had a nicer death report system.

In addition, I.V.A.N. (which has the best name a rogue-like could have) is good for some laughs. I hope they haven't fixed that one exploit choking on earwax has never been more over-powered, but it's still neat. It has a limbs-based damage system which is a bit unique.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-01-11, 10:23 AM

Never heard of Dungeon Crawl before. What's it like?

You're not fooling anyone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138669), Cogwheel. :smalltongue:

The Succubus

2012-01-11, 10:59 AM

Never heard of Dungeon Crawl before. What's it like?

I've just sat and read through your LP of Crawl and it's really tempting to try and make a sequel. :smallbiggrin:

Cogwheel

2012-01-11, 11:55 AM

I've just sat and read through your LP of Crawl and it's really tempting to try and make a sequel. :smallbiggrin:

I'm some kind of master of unintentional advertising.

Anyway. Dredmor if you're new, Crawl if you want something a bit more "normal" than Dredmor (also harder) but still moderately beginner-friendly, Nethack if you want to try the classic and like tons of complexity, even by roguelike standards.

ADOM if you hate yourself.

nooblade

2012-01-11, 12:30 PM

ADOM if you hate yourself.

I wish the ADOM LP would return. :smallsmile:

But y'know, I never touched Nethack. I guess I decided that it was either that or ADOM and I liked the interface for ADOM better.

Maybe someday I'll LP Nethack! That would be "fun". Especially without spoilers. I might just do this after I graduate this semester.

Whoracle

2012-01-11, 12:57 PM

Lord Seth

2012-01-11, 01:07 PM

NetHack came with a massive wall-of-text that was laughingly referred to as a guidebook which made absolutely no sense to me at all.Yeah, NetHack's guidebook isn't that great. I tried to give a tutorial of sorts at the start of my second Let's Play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qerRVPQ5aA) if you want to check it out. The strategy and role I play in it (healer getting protection racket) might not be the best for a newcomer--and for that matter not everything I say is accurate and not everything I do is something I'd do now, one thing about NetHack is you can always improve your game as you figure out new things--but it's still got a fair amount of good information in it.
The whole point of Roguelikes is to die in new and interesting ways and thus learn from that...a tutorial would be kind of against the root idea :smallwink:.No it wouldn't. A tutorial would help players learn the basics of the commands and how the game works on a basic level. As much as I like NetHack, one problem I've always had with it is that it doesn't have a tutorial. We're not talking about a tutorial telling you how to perform the invocation ritual or the ways a cockatrice can kill you, we're talking about a tutorial to explain the basic game commands. I mean, if you don't know that you can use "s" to search for hidden doors or corridors, you're likely to get stuck early on.
Adom and Nethack arent newbie friendly at all you need to spend months/ years to even get anywhere unspoilered.So play spoilered just like almost everyone.
These things are challenging but not really fun. When i found about Dungeon Crawl which is like Nethack but eliminates most of checklists and grinds (puding farming anyone?) i never looked back at nethack.Well, you could just...not pudding farm.

Douglas

2012-01-11, 01:45 PM

Well, you could just...not pudding farm.
I remember reading about that and how there was some controversy over whether it was an abusive/exploit tactic and whether something should be done to prevent it, and then one of the developers chimed in with something like "Pudding farming has a built-in automatic punishment. It's called pudding farming.":smalltongue:

Sure, there might be significant benefits to doing it, but it isn't necessary and is really boring and tedious. The choice to endure the tedium rather than playing the game a different way is yours.

BlackSheep

2012-01-11, 02:00 PM

Top_Hat

2012-01-11, 02:40 PM

This isn't a direct quote, but I remember when the DevTeam was asked about their plans to stop pudding farming, they said that they had already implemented such a plan and that it was called pudding farming.

Smight

2012-01-11, 03:09 PM

Tales of Maj'Eyal: Age of Ascendancy (http://te4.org/)

video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFq_dhKonk)

ObadiahtheSlim

2012-01-11, 03:38 PM

I remember reading about that and how there was some controversy over whether it was an abusive/exploit tactic and whether something should be done to prevent it, and then one of the developers chimed in with something like "Pudding farming has a built-in automatic punishment. It's called pudding farming.":smalltongue:

Sure, there might be significant benefits to doing it, but it isn't necessary and is really boring and tedious. The choice to endure the tedium rather than playing the game a different way is yours.

Just like the stair hop in the ADOM's ID. Sure you can find lots of nice stuff like potions (holy water, exchange, etc.) spell books, tools, some useful corpses (blink dogs) with little threat to self. However it is rather tedious.

Lord Seth

2012-01-11, 08:30 PM

I remember reading about that and how there was some controversy over whether it was an abusive/exploit tactic and whether something should be done to prevent it, and then one of the developers chimed in with something like "Pudding farming has a built-in automatic punishment. It's called pudding farming.":smalltongue:Exactly. But the main point I was making is that pudding farming is not necessary for the game unless you've screwed things up for yourself so much that you need to in order to get what you need (like, say, taking all the candles from Izchak, putting them in a bag of holding, and then putting another bag of holding in that bag of holding). So complaining about pudding farming being required in NetHack is silly, because it's not.

Fri

2012-01-12, 03:04 AM

Oh, yeah, the ADOM LP.

Made me waste weeks on that game, and was dead hilarious to read.
Whatever happened to that one?

OT:
Might throw Avanor (http://sourceforge.net/projects/avanor/) out there. Never got warm with it, but it has a nice, big overworld.

I guess mewtharthio was kinda intimidated by our love (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8497762&postcount=882).

Avilan the Grey

2012-01-12, 03:07 AM

A little silliness: I was hoping Roguelikes were very well-shaped women wearing green and... um... :smallwink:

Anyway, I am following this thread with interest although it was at least 20 years ago I played a Roguelike last.

Alge'n

2012-01-12, 03:47 AM

I playtested a zombie apocalypse RL in its infancy. It was less dungeon diving and more about a wide open world. It added boredom as another type of clock to manage, forced a very limited inventory and had the beginnings of an interesting crafting system. Anyone else try that one and remember what it was called?

Either Rogue Survivor (http://roguesurvivor.blogspot.com/) or Cataclysm (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Cataclysm). Probably Cataclysm since I don't remember any crafting in RS. Both are very fun and worth a test by the way. I also recommend DoomRL, although it might be better to wait for the tiles version (which should be out soon now.).

The Succubus

2012-01-12, 04:44 AM

The Succubus

2012-01-12, 05:16 AM

Sprinter

2012-01-12, 08:51 AM

Anyway, I am following this thread with interest although it was at least 20 years ago I played a Roguelike last.

20 years ago roguelikes were limited to rogue angband branch nethack branch of roguelikes and few other by now forgotten roguelikes.

Many dont realise how much had changed because roguelikes use ASCII graphics that makes them look 30 years old but there was no ADOM,Dungeon Crawl,IVAN,Dwarf fortress ,DoomRL 20 years ago.

Tales of Maj'Eyal: Age of Ascendancy

I gave it a spin last year. It has unusualy pretty graphical engine and integrated online play. Nice Adomlike gameworld, many interesting unlockable classess (paradox mage with time/space alteration skills)

Weak point was client stability whenever client crashed you lost some progress even while online game only saved progress at begining of level. Which also could be exploitable by intentionaly crashing client after death which was easy thanks to client stability back then. :smalltongue:

I also recommend DoomRL, although it might be better to wait for the tiles version (which should be out soon now.).

DooMRL 0.9.9.5G Tiles version is already released but available only for ChaosForge supporters/donators. Tiles version looks better then original DooM imho.

If you want to see tiles version screenshots here is link to DoomRL LP. (http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/lets-play-doomrl-for-graphics-whores.68345/)

But dont read it if you want to remain unspoilered as it contains very usefull tips how to play and some spoilers (tips how to get through special nonrandom generated levels, some basic assemblies and few other spoilers)

In fact i have to thank author for the tips but i dont have account on that forum as i found that LP only by accident. Yesterday i won the game for first time on medium difficulty which was completely unexpected since it was Angel of Berserk (melee only) challenge game.

Top_Hat

2012-01-12, 10:00 AM

Trying out Crawl at the moment and really enjoying it. My first character (A Demonspawn hunter) managed a grand total of 36 turns before getting pounded into rat chow. Currently doing a lot better with my Draconic Ice Elementalist.

Glad you're having fun with it. If you are looking for help, I'm sure we can help you out here, and even if you aren't I'm gonna give you atleast 1 sentence worth:smallwink:

Draconian isn't the easiest race to play, because they can't wear much armor, but Ice Elementalist is wonderful because all of the spells in your starting spellbook are good. High elf is a good magical race, and Minotaur is a strong melee fighter. Happy Losing!

The Succubus

2012-01-12, 11:26 AM

BlackSheep

2012-01-12, 01:16 PM

Either Rogue Survivor (http://roguesurvivor.blogspot.com/) or Cataclysm (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Cataclysm). Probably Cataclysm since I don't remember any crafting in RS. Both are very fun and worth a test by the way. I also recommend DoomRL, although it might be better to wait for the tiles version (which should be out soon now.).

Thank you, it was Cataclysm, I'm certain. The concept was very interesting to me, but the early state of the game code and the lack of goals other than long term survival eventually turned me off to it.

I'm greatly looking forward to DoomRL tiles. It's been on my list for a while now, but I keep putting it off.

Anteros

2012-01-12, 01:36 PM

Dungeons of Dredmor (http://www.dungeonsofdredmor.com/)

A roguelike for a more modern audience. :smallwink:

An audience that doesn't mind half the moves working incorrectly, certain types of characters being wildly more powerful than others, and fighting the same 3 recolored enemies over and over?

Mewtarthio

2012-01-12, 01:47 PM

Oh, yeah, the ADOM LP.

Made me waste weeks on that game, and was dead hilarious to read.
Whatever happened to that one?

Real life happened, unfortunately. Still, I am glad to see that you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed making it.

Whoracle

2012-01-12, 01:58 PM

Real life happened, unfortunately. Still, I am glad to see that you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed making it.

Ah, curse you, real life! Always interfering with my entertainment!

Any chance on a resurrection of the LP? Even if it's just a short one?

BlackSheep

2012-01-12, 03:56 PM

...
certain types of characters being wildly more powerful than others
...

To be fair, this is true of most roguelikes.

The Succubus

2012-01-12, 04:56 PM

I'm hoping to reach level 7 and be (white? I can never get my dragon colours correct :smallannoyed:) a frosty draconic ice elementalist and then get stomped by the first thing that's immune to cold damage. :smalltongue:

I bow before my own prescience. Goddamn Ice Beast. :smallannoyed:

Derjuin

2012-01-13, 12:59 PM

Try finding all the easter eggs/Things-The-Devs-Thought-Of in Nethack.:smalleek:

For example, what method of death results in the game describing you as having died due to "Elementary Physics"? And how do you kill a monster by pissing off your patron deity?

I haven't actually played Nethack, so I can't offer examples of those...but I can offer some goofy examples of deaths from ADOM. :smalltongue:

1. Choking on your own vomit
2. Casting too many spells
3. Executed yourself
4. Trying to be a better writer
5. Death by exploding frog prince
6. Death by poorly aimed divine retribution

Now this makes me want to play again! I wonder how many deaths it'll take to get to a victory this time...

Douglas

2012-01-13, 01:19 PM

It's been a long time (over a decade, I think) since I played nethack, and I never did get very far in it. I actually took those examples from the tvtropes entry. The "Elementary Physics" one has already been explained (throw a cockatrice corpse such that it comes back to hit you - throw it straight up is the simplest way), but here's the somewhat more complex "kill a monster by pissing off your god" one:
1) Pray enough that your god is annoyed and close to the threshold of punishing you. (Note: prayer in nethack is always a request for aid, not an act of worship, and gods get tired of it if you ask for their help too often.)
2) Find a monster that has both a) electricity/shock resistance and b) the ability to engulf people.
3) Get engulfed by the monster from 2.
4) Pray.
5) Your god, pissed off that you've been praying for help so much, tries to kill you. He does this by zapping you with a lightning bolt. The lightning bolt will hit the monster you're engulfed by instead. Since the monster is resistant to this kind of attack, it will survive.
6) Seeing as you survived the lightning bolt, your god follows up with a wide-angle disintegration beam. This will also hit the monster you're engulfed by, killing it. You will emerge from the corpse, untouched and victorious. Having spent the entirety of his usual smite routine without success, your god gives up on killing you (this time).

The shock resistance on the monster is necessary because otherwise the lightning bolt would kill it and you would be unprotected when the wide-angle disintegration beam hits.

Cespenar

2012-01-13, 01:28 PM

I haven't actually played Nethack, so I can't offer examples of those...but I can offer some goofy examples of deaths from ADOM. :smalltongue:

1. Choking on your own vomit
2. Casting too many spells
3. Executed yourself
4. Trying to be a better writer
5. Death by exploding frog prince
6. Death by poorly aimed divine retribution

Now this makes me want to play again! I wonder how many deaths it'll take to get to a victory this time...

Add to that "crushed by your own luggage". A true adventurer's death, if I ever saw one.

Mewtarthio

2012-01-13, 02:49 PM

Any chance on a resurrection of the LP? Even if it's just a short one?

...Actually, I still have a bit of a screenshot buffer. I mean, if there was enough interest...

ObadiahtheSlim

2012-01-13, 03:32 PM

Another novel way to kill yourself in ADOM is to sacrifice yourself. As I recall, not even an Amulet of Life Saving can help you.

Also my worst death ever in ADOM was when I stepped on a chaotic altar in the dark and an intelligent enemy that could see in the dark (some sort of undead I think) was in the room with me. I was sacrificed without me even knowing I was in danger of it.

Rockphed

2012-01-13, 03:46 PM

Maxios

2012-01-13, 03:48 PM

My dumbest death in Spelunky: Throwing an arrow which bouned off a wall and hit me.

Cespenar

2012-01-13, 03:51 PM

My dumbest death in Spelunky: Throwing an arrow which bouned off a wall and hit me.

Mine was "Bet I can take that shopkeeper down!"

ScionoftheVoid

2012-01-13, 03:57 PM

An audience that doesn't mind half the moves working incorrectly, certain types of characters being wildly more powerful than others, and fighting the same 3 recolored enemies over and over?

I wouldn't say half, though there are indeed problems with some things (Blood Magic is the one I've heard of, and Fallen Vegan should probably trigger on ranged attacks, if not on luring things into traps).

Character balance varies more by synergy than outright power, as far as I've experienced the game. With a dash of Linear Warrior Quadratic Wizard unless you get lucky with gear. But really, the game features randomly generated artifacts and has the option to make a character with skills selected at random. Balance is never going to be perfect nor necessary (IMO).

And in Realm of the Diggle Gods, at least (I bought it before going into the recently-patched game, so I don't know about the unexpanded game), there are quite a lot more than three enemies discounting recolours. Besides, isn't the standard for roguelikes ASCII? Graphics are probably not what you're playing the game for, and are mostly a bonus to have something interesting to look at and perhaps ease the learning curve a mite (I personally find it easier to remember what everything is in Dredmor than I did trying to learn Dwarf Fortress). Many better-funded games minimise the number of different designs, and those tend to use more easily-adjusted sprites (there's a blog post somewhere detailing the difficulty involved in making the protagonist's image customisable, which is similarly applicable to why there are so many recolours, which I don't have a link to unfortunately).

You also failed to note the game's sense of humour (which I find wonderful). Often found in the descriptions of each monster, and recolours all get seperate entries from one another. Not to mention the items, artifact and unique monster names, scenery, skill trees, and buffs and debuffs.

I feel that you are overstating the game's flaws, and not mentioning it's advantages at all gives a rather negative view of a rather good game (in my opinion, at least). For example, the learning curve is significantly less steep than other games of the genre and the humour I have already mentioned.

As has probably been gathered, I am a fan of Dungeons of Dredmor. I have also played Dungeon Crawl, which is a rather good game I got into after reading Cogwheel's LP. I tend to go for Demonspawn or Merfolk, depending on whether I feel like using polearms or gaining randomised racial traits (which can be really powerful, such as when I got passively summoned demons to fight for me whenever I was in combat).

Mewtarthio

2012-01-13, 04:06 PM

Mine was "Bet I can take that shopkeeper down!"

I have a bit of an addiction to killing the shopkeepers in that game. If they're selling a shotgun, it takes all my willpower to not murder them with their own wares. It does make the end of each level more exciting, though I've never actually beaten the game with hostile shopkeepers.

What? Don't tell me they don't deserve it! Creepy "Kissing Booths" and whatnot...

ObadiahtheSlim

2012-01-13, 04:17 PM

My dumbest death in Spelunky: Throwing an arrow which bouned off a wall and hit me.

I've killed myself with a number of wall reflects. i can't count how many times I've killed myself with bad magic missile casts in ADOM before I got my first win.

Cespenar

2012-01-13, 07:03 PM

I have a bit of an addiction to killing the shopkeepers in that game. If they're selling a shotgun, it takes all my willpower to not murder them with their own wares. It does make the end of each level more exciting, though I've never actually beaten the game with hostile shopkeepers.

What? Don't tell me they don't deserve it! Creepy "Kissing Booths" and whatnot...

Yeah, it's almost never worth tackling with the Shopkeepers' Union.

Top_Hat

2012-01-13, 09:48 PM

I'm hoping to reach level 7 and be (white? I can never get my dragon colours correct :smallannoyed:) a frosty draconic ice elementalist and then get stomped by the first thing that's immune to cold damage. :smalltongue:

The spell Throw Icicle deals damage that is partially unresistable, so you won't be terrible against frost resistant things like the undead, should you make it that far.

TaRix

2012-01-14, 05:24 PM

You know, I'd really like to enjoy a couple of these more. I really would. I played Dungeon Crawl:Stone Soup for longer than is healthy, but I swore it off because I couldn't get it to play faster. And, no, ASCII is just for that loveable dwarf fortress now; I'd like to know just what everything is without having to check every last character.

And I'd really like Dredmor more if I lost more games to, you know, winning or dying, instead of crashing on me. I think I'm going to have to (gasp!) at least forget about permadeath and save often if I want to keep my monitor un-punched.

BlackSheep

2012-01-15, 11:45 AM

You know, I'd really like to enjoy a couple of these more. I really would. I played Dungeon Crawl:Stone Soup for longer than is healthy, but I swore it off because I couldn't get it to play faster.

Do you mean that the program responds slowly? I had a problem like that for a long time on my laptop. Tried tons of things to speed it up including updating drivers, tweaking OpenGL settings, etc. What finally fixed it was changing the color depth on my desktop from 16 bit to 32 bit. After that it ran just as fast as it did everywhere else.

Premier

2012-01-16, 08:22 AM

One Roguelike that's particularly close to my heart is Ragnarok (a.k.a. Valhalla). It's Viking-themed (duh), though with a side order of weird monsters, some oriental weapons, psionics, etc.. But even with all those elements, it still somehow feels right for a Norse roguelike. It's relatively simple ruleswise. The official download site seems to be down, but a bit of Googling should net you a link, and you might also want to check out a remake (http://ragnarok.rlgclub.ru/index.php) in the works (click on "English" in the left tab).

The Succubus

2012-01-16, 05:58 PM

So, latest humiliating Dungeon Crawl death - making it as far as level 6 with a Mummy Necro and getting killed by a ZomBee. -.-

'Tis a very compelling game this one....

ObadiahtheSlim

2012-01-16, 07:04 PM

Derjuin

2012-01-16, 07:32 PM

I found my old priest save for ADOM. Continued on wiht him and found a greater red dragon vault. The like 4 named Wyrm and 4-5 ancient red dragons catapulted me from like level 25 to 50. Also got 2 worthless melee weapon artifacts out of it. But the nice find was death ray. I have a question. Is death ray worth it? I imagine most of the stuff I'll want to cast it on will just shrug the ray off since it will be low rank. Not like my nether bolt. Got that up to like rank 30+

Typically death ray is not useful; it takes a lot of casts for its rank to be high enough to overcome enemies' resistance to it, and you can accidentally fire it into a wall and reflect it onto yourself, dealing massive damage or outright killing yourself. I tend to not even read the book if I find it. :smallyuk:

Good luck! Sounds like a winner already. Just curious, which useless artifacts did you get?

Started up a Drakeling druid file today. As with most spellcaster starts, I went to the <spoily>bug temple to level up quickly</spoily>, but forgot to <spoily>cap the small cave at level 1</spoily>. No matter though, the stairs were close enough. Here's to hoping for a special ending!

Silfir

2012-01-16, 08:11 PM

I've found Death Ray quite effective against killer bugs; it kills them in one ray instead of several bolts. It does still take way more PP that way, but if for some reason you're short on other (more universally effective) damage spells, it's not a bad idea.

Cogwheel

2012-01-17, 08:21 AM

So, latest humiliating Dungeon Crawl death - making it as far as level 6 with a Mummy Necro and getting killed by a ZomBee. -.-

'Tis a very compelling game this one....

Ah. Common mistake for beginners.

You need to start playing some chaos knights if you want to get through the early/mid-game. Xom is a complete game-changer, you'll forget you ever had any of the usual early game problems. Can't recommend that class enough.

BlackSheep

2012-01-17, 09:07 AM

Ah. Common mistake for beginners.

You need to start playing some chaos knights if you want to get through the early/mid-game. Xom is a complete game-changer, you'll forget you ever had any of the usual early game problems. Can't recommend that class enough.

'Course, that's because you replace them with a new set of very unusual early game problems. Maybe try a demonspawn at first. At least they have built in Xom entertainment.

Cogwheel

2012-01-17, 09:32 AM

'Course, that's because you replace them with a new set of very unusual early game problems. Maybe try a demonspawn at first. At least they have built in Xom entertainment.

Aww, why'd you have to ruin the surprise?

Alge'n

2012-01-17, 09:52 AM

I think the best is to start as a Berserker for the animal skin, and then switch to Xom as soon as you find an altar.

Mewtarthio

2012-01-17, 10:23 AM

Don't listen to these despicable thugs. They will steer you wrong, trust me. The real newbie-friendly combo is Mummy Wanderer. Mummies don't eat, you see, which takes away a huge early game threat, and wanderers can get any skill.

TaRix

2012-01-17, 12:18 PM

Och. I disagree with a generalist approach in Crawl. The game suggests three archetypes (with samples of each in the tutorials) : Melee fighter, ranged fighter, and mage. There's just not enough XP to put into every skill, so you have to learn how to use the training options, and to learn what to cut. Maybe, just maybe, change a couple if you find that -perfect- artifact (random or no).

My best run was a (unsuccessful) Deep Elf wizard who worshipped the curse-guy because he couldn't find the spell-teaching one. The skill boosts made several areas much easier.

Another fun play is a Hill Orc Priest, who plays as a fighter or tank and leads an army fairly early, but might find things difficult if something's just a little too tough for da boyz.

Mewtarthio

2012-01-17, 12:38 PM

Och. I disagree with a generalist approach in Crawl.

I was kidding. Mummy Wanderer is a terrible idea. If you want a serious suggestion for a newbie combination... Well, Felid Berserker is the simplest to play, on account of 90% of the game (magic, ranged attacks, and a good chunk of item management) being completely irrelevant. Downside is, you won't learn how to use that 90% of the game. Also, all your healing and panic button options can get frozen or set on fire.

plllizzz

2012-01-17, 06:53 PM

Also, for begginner roguelikes: Gear Head 1/2

>open world
>randomized quests/character background + set story quests
>in-game tutorial
>no permadeath [may be a + for some, - for more 'hardcore' people; death still hurts horribly - hero can end as a cripple without enough money for a mech, forced to clean sewers out of rats to buy a new one]

and yes, I did say 'mecha'

cause GearHead isn't a fantasy game. It's a roguelike with GIANT ROBOTS. And you get to pilot them, arm them and customize them in nearly infinite ways

and I heard chicks dig giant robots.

Hybban

2012-01-18, 07:08 AM

I love RL games. Started with Moria, then rogue about 20 years ago. ADOM has always been my favorite for the story, the plot, the quests and the number of things that you can do. I always have it on a USB key on me so I can play anywhere I am :)

I had a big crush on Labyrinth Lord a few years ago, but the original program stopped and a new version came out that I liked less.

Dungeons of Dredmore has kept me busy lately, but it's mostly the silliness that keeps me coming back for it.

nooblade

2012-01-18, 06:24 PM

If any of you are into this kind of thing, you might want to look into the 7DRL competition for 2012. They're deciding on a date for it at the moment. (http://7drl.org/) Read a little more about it here. (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/7DRL)

I don't think I'll do it this year, my last attempt went poorly. I wouldn't be satisfied with a simpler project using the T-module or something either. But I really like the form of the competition--I tend to do programming in short bursts after playing, looking at theory, and experimenting for a while.

I'll be watching with interest though. Good luck to the participants!