Class suggestions?

[pluizig]

So my character got killed yesterday (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228192)), and I need to make a new one.

Now, my group is not heavy into optimization *at all*, so my options are fairly limited: core, PHB2, and the complete series. Also no outrageous multiclassing or prestige classes: one or two maximum. My last PC was a Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish1, and that was already raising some eyebrows.

Also, and this is a big one: we'll be converting from 3.5 to Pathfinder soon, so it would be ideal if my new character's class could easily make the jump. Alternatively, I could take a Pathfinder class, reverse-converted to 3.5, if that is even possible.

We'll most likely start a level 4, with a point buy around 20-22.

My personal taste: a character with not too much (spell) hassle. That means Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers are out, I guess.

I've previously played a Fighter, Monk, Swashbuckler, and a Warlock, so I'd rather play something else this time. Oh, and the Rogue spot is likely to be taken already.

For now, I'm thinking of a Psionic character, or maybe an Alchemist (PF). Scouts and Bards have always looked interesting to me, but I'm not sure how they'll play.


Any insights, playground? I'm just looking for a starting point to start looking.

[Novawurmson]

I'm always a big fan of Psionics. If you can get the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) approved, there's plenty of ways to build them. My personal favorite is a THW fighter with the Trip/Toppling strike blade skills. Smack people in the face so hard they fall down!

Unfortunately, they don't get any psionic powers, unless you've preordered Psionics Expanded and have the pdfs; there's an ACF where they give up Perfect Strike for limited manifesting (about at the level of a Ranger or Paladin).

Psychic Warrior could also work for a lower-manifesting psionic character. It's good in 3.5 and pretty easily converted to Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior).

[Orsen]

Depending on how soon you are switching to Pathfinder, Paladin would be good. It'll be aweful for the time in 3.5 , with that low point buy but once you make the switch you'll love your life. Also, this doesn't involve any fancy multiple classing and would be a straight conversion when the time comes for it. Try half- Orc to see the most extreme change you can between the two systems.

[Amphetryon]

I'd recommend Bard for you, assuming you don't find their spellcasting to be too much "hassle". Perhaps Bard/Paladin (with the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer) into Mythic Exemplar from Complete Champion, which further minimizes the bookkeeping from spells. You can theoretically do that at 5/5/10*, so it should minimize concerns from the group about 'powergaming', and it isn't especially uber in any event, just versatile while playing similarly to your expressed styles. Even with those similarities, it will allow you to branch out from your normal comfort zone.

Bardadin (Bard/Paladin) plays as both party buffer and frontline combatant, and Mythic Exemplar allows you to continue fulfilling both roles.

*I don't typically recommend more than 2 levels of Paladin, but for your group's preferences, following Favored Class guidelines seemed appropriate.

[Alefiend]

We'll most likely start a level 4, with a point buy around 20-22.
...
Oh, and the Rogue spot is likely to be taken already.

Why such a low point total? It looks like the GM wants bog-standard normals from off the streets.

As to the rogue spot already being taken: the rogue has the most customizable chassis this side of the factotum. There's no reason you can't play another rogue and not overlap in any meaningful way. You can be a grifter, a second-story operator, an information broker, a trapsmith, an investigator, a pickpocket, a security consultant ... the possibilities are nearly limitless. This closed thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95323) might have some useful info for you as well.

[pluizig]

As the Party Wipe causing us to start over was largely to blame on our Paladin (see link in OP), I think that class will sit the next adventure out, so to speak.

20 point buy is 'high fantasy' in Pathfinder, so the DM's used that as a guideline. The extra 2 points are because 3.5 characters start with a +2 less racial ability.

[Alefiend]

As the Party Wipe causing us to start over was largely to blame on our Paladin (see link in OP), I think that class will sit the next adventure out, so to speak.

20 point buy is 'high fantasy' in Pathfinder, so the DM's used that as a guideline. The extra 2 points are because 3.5 characters start with a +2 less racial ability.

I see—it wasn't clear to me that you were using PF point system, which is substantially more lenient than 3.5's.

And, for whatever it's worth, I'd be very tempted to play a paladin, just to show that they aren't all intolerant idiots. :smallsigh:

[pluizig]

I see—it wasn't clear to me that you were using PF point system, which is substantially more lenient than 3.5's.

Please describe the difference in point buys between PF and 3.5 - I didn't know there was any.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think that Pointbuy in PF starts at 10 before racial modifiers and I think the costs might be a little different, though I am not sure.

[Alefiend]

I think that Pointbuy in PF starts at 10 before racial modifiers and I think the costs might be a little different, though I am not sure.

This. The costs are actually similar, though not the same—but starting at 10 instead of having to buy your way out of a penalty makes a huge difference. Also, the lowest point-buy recommended in regular D&D is 15, and the highest is 32.

[Leon]

I could take a Pathfinder class, reverse-converted to 3.5, if that is even possible.

My personal taste: a character with not too much (spell) hassle.


Magus, keep the class as is and use 3.5 Spells

[Greenish]

Here's the point-buy calculator (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html) that I usually use. It has both 3.5 and PF, so plug your stats there and compare.

Also, I'm going to 2nd the Psionic Warrior suggestion. Works neatly single-classed, is strong enough for most stuff but not overpoweringly so, etc. Both 3.5 and PF one are pretty well designed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I third the suggestion for Psychic Warrior, it has some really neat tricks and it can do any trick a fighter can but better (don't let the 3/4 BAB fool you, they are serious powerhouses when built right).

My favourite types of Psywar are Natural Attack based (Bite of the Wolf and Claws of the beast F.T.W!!), Pouncers (Psionic Lion's charge and/or Hustle is all you need apart from Power Attack) and Archers (Soulbound weapon is pretty nice to get those fancy enhancements such as splitting more cheaply)

[Socratov]

I second the bard (but then again i like bards), it has great balance, some nifty but not too complicated spells, and is actually rather nice single class (unless you want more casting, but that wasn't your preference), option include, but are not limited to, partyface, buffer, frontline fighter (snowflake wardance etc.), (caster), healer, ranged attacker... (pick any 2 or 3 roles to fulfill)

and the icing on the cake: the bard gets slightly better in pathfinder...

[hex0]

I third the suggestion for Psychic Warrior, it has some really neat tricks and it can do any trick a fighter can but better (don't let the 3/4 BAB fool you, they are serious powerhouses when built right).

My favourite types of Psywar are Natural Attack based (Bite of the Wolf and Claws of the beast F.T.W!!), Pouncers (Psionic Lion's charge and/or Hustle is all you need apart from Power Attack) and Archers (Soulbound weapon is pretty nice to get those fancy enhancements such as splitting more cheaply)

I'll fourth the Psychic Warrior suggestion, especially since the PF Warmind can continue your manifesting instead of starting over.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am not really impressed with Warmind to be honest, for psy-gish PgC I prefer Slayer.

[Greenish]

the bard gets slightly better in pathfinder...Debatable (and oft-debated).

[Razanir]

Summoner might be cool. Never played one but they seem decent.

But if psionics are your thing, then pick Wilder. I played one, and first off, go crazy with wild surges. The 5% chance of only taking one action next turn is well worth the free manifester level you get. Also, there's not much spell hassle because you get about 1 power/level. Crystal shard is my favorite, use it until you get energy push a few levels later.

[DrDeth]

There’s no psionics in Pathfinder RAW. It’s very doubtful the OP’s DM would allow a 3rd party book.

I suggest a Inquisitor. Bard is nerfed in PF- why-oh-why would they nerf BARD!?!

Summoner is quite complicated.

[Randomguy]

You could try Paladin going into Shadowbane Inquisitioner (from complete adventurer). You'd need a dip in rogue or sneak attack variant thug fighter to qualify though, but you could add that in to your backstory (by being a petty criminal who saw the light or something). They're a lot less strict on alignment than paladins are.

[Slipperychicken]

Summoner might be cool. Never played one but they seem decent.

I have. They rule if you like hitting things without consequence. Eidolons can be very nice utility when built right (all-day ex. flight, skills, recon). Even if it dies, Summon Monster means you never run out of minions, and you can get the Eidolon back the next day. Spellcasting is light, spontaneous, and simple. High charisma means you can play face. Only issue I faced was bookkeeping on the Eidolon, and that wasn't so bad.

[Alienist]

Play a Healer or a Truenamer.

If you can get the rest of the group to call those broken, you're doing well :D

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druid is actually an extremely easy class to play, especially if you use the Shapeshift variant from PH2. Shapeshift is less powerful than standard Wild Shape and thus more appropriate for a low-op party. Human would probably be your best choice of race, but Dwarf is also quite useful considering you get a set land speed when Shapeshifted.

Get a Lesser Rod of Extend, start combat by casting Barkskin or (Extended) Produce Flame and then Shapeshifting into your predator form. As per holding the charge on a touch spell, you'll deliver a Produce Flame effect whenever you touch an opponent, thus it will add fire damage to all of your natural attacks. Buffs like Bull's Strength won't stack with the enhancement bonuses granted by Shapeshift, but Barkskin's bonus will stack since Shapeshift's natural armor bonus is untyped. You'll be extremely capable in melee and also be able to make a significant contribution outside of combat.

For your feats, I'd probably get something like Combat Reflexes or Power Attack, pick up Touch of Healing (CC) at 3rd, and definitely get (Improved) Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack) (MM). Summon Elemental (CM) at 9th is highly recommended, mostly for its uses outside of combat.

[Psyren]

I am not really impressed with Warmind to be honest, for psy-gish PgC I prefer Slayer.

PF Warmind (www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/war-mind) might change your opinion - it lets you stack it on top of Psywar levels (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/war-mind#TOC-Warrior-s-Journey-Ex-), giving you full manifesting, full BAB, and the various War Mind chains.


There’s no psionics in Pathfinder RAW. It’s very doubtful the OP’s DM would allow a 3rd party book.

Given that the OP himself expressed a desire to play a psionic character, it's safe for us to assume that they are on the table.


@ OP: If your group is low-Op I would personally go with Soulknife myself; see my handbook in sig for good bladeskill choices. [/shamelessplug]

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm the well of power fixed my beef with Warmind actually, I thought that 3 times per day was a bit low for all the chains. I still find the capstone a bit underwhelming, though it isn't as bad as I first thought.

Might actually try to play a Psychic Warrior/Warmind sometime in the future.

[ericgrau]

With a 6 person party and all the essentials covered you could look into being a 5th (6th) wheel support. A Bard to sing and mass buff (haste, etc.) the party while being a secondary caster (glitterdust, irresistible dance, etc.), a sorcerer to team up with the wizard by taking the commonly cast spells off of his back, a cleric specializing more on prayer, greater magic weapon, scrolls of remove X and eventually mass healing spells and/or shield other.

Or you can never have too many beat sticks if that makes things simpler.

[Socratov]

Debatable (and oft-debated).


There’s no psionics in Pathfinder RAW. It’s very doubtful the OP’s DM would allow a 3rd party book.

I suggest a Inquisitor. Bard is nerfed in PF- why-oh-why would they nerf BARD!?!

Summoner is quite complicated.

ehm :smallconfused: From what i saw with a quick look on the pathfinder society bards have in pathfinder slightly more combat capability and offensive power. some of their more powerful abilities come earlier, against a few of his niche abilities who lose maybe 1 point or so and he gets some feats and ACF's as a bonus added for free (all compared with 3.5 bard)

Admittantly I didn't take a look at pathfinder as a whole to see if the rest was just buffed harder then the bard, but from what i initially saw i thought bard was buffed slightly from 3.5 to 3.P :smallconfused:

[DrDeth]

The critical thing is that his bardic abilities last a few rounds a day, instead of all day long.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7607412#post7607377


“Bardic Performance now only works for a number of rounds per day equal to 2 + Cha mod + (level x2); a huge nerf from 3.5, where a bard could play for ages multiple times per day. “

[Metahuman1]

Try a Ranger with Craft Poison making and Archery Style. In a low Opt game it should work fine and it should also be ok for your groups standards as your not dealing massive damage, just a bit of steady HP damage and useful Stat damage form a distance. You've still got the other problems of a ranger.

Also, it's a single classed build idea and a very simple one, and the flavor fits. You use the materials of the woods to make your shots that much more effective. Even if the arrow strike doesn't take the enemy down instantly, there still going down given some time.

[ericgrau]

The critical thing is that his bardic abilities last a few rounds a day, instead of all day long.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7607412#post7607377


“Bardic Performance now only works for a number of rounds per day equal to 2 + Cha mod + (level x2); a huge nerf from 3.5, where a bard could play for ages multiple times per day. “



At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.

This dramatically outweighs the drawback of being limited to a number of rounds that is still way longer than most adventuring days. Pathfinder makes a buffer bard more viable because the greatest drawback about buffing is that the benefit is often smaller than spending a turn attacking or doing something else. Now you can buff and do something else too, or even use your extra action on one of the more efficient buffs like haste rather than a +X buff. Add in redonkulously powerful new Pathfinder spells like gallant inspiration for your immediate or swift action and a triple buffing action Pathfinder bard (swift, move, standard) gets really strong.

It's moot anyway because the OP isn't actually playing Pathfinder.

[sonofzeal]

This dramatically outweighs the drawback of being limited to a number of rounds that is still way longer than most adventuring days.
Er, what? Since when can anyone's average adventuring day be measured in rounds?

I mean, a single use lasting 2+cha+lvl*2 rounds is fairly decent. But total? Throughout the day? Ouch.

[ericgrau]

The combat time is what matters. I wasn't counting the 14 minute lunch break before/after the 1 minute work day. Man PCs sure do have a strong union. Anyhoo if the fool sings while sneaking through the dungeon it's his own fault.

Even at level 4 the PF bard can already sing for 3 fights.

[sonofzeal]

The combat time is what matters. I wasn't counting the 14 minute lunch break before/after the 1 minute work day. Man PCs sure do have a strong union. Anyhoo if the fool sings while sneaking through the dungeon it's his own fault.

Even at level 4 the PF bard can already sing for 3 fights.
...and what about the rest of us who don't take 1 minute work day as a point of order? I've had single fights that last longer than that, especially multi-stage fights and fights overland over large distances. My previous DM loved drawn-out wave battles, which were massively epic, and tended to take a fair amount of in-game time.

[ericgrau]

Then the 3.5e bard will suck even more since he needs standard actions to continue the singing more than 5 rounds. So every 5th turn is wasted; or better yet he stops singing and does something more useful with that action, so any duration past 5 rounds per fight on the 3.5e bard is useless as he'd be better off casting haste, glitterdust or some such. The PF bard only needs free actions to keep singing.

It's really hard even to make a construed scenario with enough combat rounds where the PF bard runs out when he's already at 14 rounds at level 4, and increasing after that.

[sonofzeal]

Then the 3.5e bard will suck even more since he needs standard actions to continue the singing more than 5 rounds. The PF bard only needs free actions to keep singing.
Not for Inspire Courage, which is usually the default once you've pumped it a bit with Song of the Heart and the like. It only takes a Standard Action to start, and lasts as long as you'd like. A DM might start making you roll Con checks as per a forced march eventually, but by RAW there's no actual limit, and RAI is clear that you can continue the one song through a whole fight with that single leading standard action, even if the fight takes 20 rounds or more.

[Psyren]

I think the designers can be forgiven for not designing around 20-round fights though.

[DrDeth]

This dramatically outweighs the drawback of being limited to a number of rounds that is still way longer than most adventuring days. Pathfinder makes a buffer bard more viable because the greatest drawback about buffing is that the benefit is often smaller than spending a turn attacking or doing something else. Now you can buff and do something else too, or even use your extra action on one of the more efficient buffs like haste rather than a +X buff. .

My Bard can easily run through her total alotment in two combats. 4 encounters is normal.

In 3.5 you could also do something else while buffing, you could fight. Just not cast spells. And for the cost of a feat, you could buff and your buffing would last 5 rounds after you stopped, instead of 3 rounds in PF.

[DrDeth]

Then the 3.5e bard will suck even more since he needs standard actions to continue the singing more than 5 rounds. So every 5th turn is wasted; or better yet he stops singing and does something more useful with that action, so any duration past 5 rounds per fight on the 3.5e bard is useless as he'd be better off casting haste, glitterdust or some such. The PF bard only needs free actions to keep singing.

It's really hard even to make a construed scenario with enough combat rounds where the PF bard runs out when he's already at 14 rounds at level 4, and increasing after that.

Our PF combats last about 5-8 rounds each. There's supposed to be about 4 or those per day. Then there's non-combat encounters, where you also need bard song.

I run out just about any day where we have multiple enounters.

[Socratov]

oops, didn't notice that one... I suppose some feats could potentially increase the singin capacity like 3.5's extra music?

anyway, in 3.5 you only had a number of times equal to your bardlvl. sure you coudl keep it up, but then you would waste a lot of actions keeping up the song for not having to initiatie every few rounds for a long fight. then again, roudns only last a couple of rounds (especially when you get to the higher levels).

[Psyren]

Our PF combats last about 5-8 rounds each. There's supposed to be about 4 or those per day. Then there's non-combat encounters, where you also need bard song.

I run out just about any day where we have multiple enounters.

Well, you have more feats now - take some Extra Performance with them.

[DrDeth]

oops, didn't notice that one... I suppose some feats could potentially increase the singin capacity like 3.5's extra music?

anyway, in 3.5 you only had a number of times equal to your bardlvl. sure you coudl keep it up, but then you would waste a lot of actions keeping up the song for not having to initiatie every few rounds for a long fight. then again, roudns only last a couple of rounds (especially when you get to the higher levels).

Yes, I now have Lingering Song, which also was somewhat nerfed. One thing is that the inspire competence is MUCH nicer when you can boost a rogue to take 20 on a difficult lock, or keep up +2 to a spot skill when tromping thru a forest where a ambush is likely (of course in that 2nd case, you can't do that if folks want to sneak).

Extra Performance is a trap, adds very little. In any case, the point is that PF nerfed bards, which of all classes, needed a nerf the least.